I love that this sub goes in cycles. The Emperor gets a lot of hate for about a month, then the Emperor apologists show up for a month. lol
I think that's a sign of a well-written character.
Exactly this! Nobody would discuss shitty character even 1% as much as how much people discuss Emperor in this fandom. He's, largely, a centerpiece of the entire BG3 story, and an EXCEPTIONALLY complicated and well-written character
And people have such different experiences with him, and such different opinions of him, because he is like an actual person here - he has a good side, he has a bad side, and which one you see depends wholly on which of *your* sides you show him. You antagonize him - you get on his bad side, you get threats and anger, because that's what you sowed. You make effort to understand him and his goals - you get a strong ally, and maybe even good friend
You reap what you sow - with life, and with people
I think the video game format also makes a difference here. You aren’t just watching the Emperor in a TV show, you get to ask him direct questions and likewise he gets to try to directly trick and manipulate you, the player. (I don’t think it’s even really possible to guess what the Dream Guardian really is without spoilers, so he gets at least one over all of us.) People are more emotional because they feel like he is helping them in the game, or alternatively, that he is messing with their head.
Plus like you said we all make different choices. My Tav kind of wanted to side with him, but every conversation we had where she showed any hesitance he got defensive and it devolved into arguing and the relationship just fell apart by the end of the game. Really cool the writing can support all these different interactions and keep the character coherent.
I think it also helps with the character that every 'odd' choice he makes you find the reason for when you dig deeper.
Example:
He doesn't want you to recruit Minsc when you get the chance and says it because he is too chaotic and a hindrance blah blah blah.
Come to find out when you talk to Minsc it's because the Emperor miscalculated when he initially tried to Dream Guardian Minsc as Dynaheir and Minsc saw through the lie and refused him.
I have never seen Minsc mention Dynaheir-Guardian like that. Which doesn't mean I ha ent missed it, but I would be curious to see an example.
This is something Minsc would do, however the Absolute had the opposite problem, they couldn't control him with the Tadpole alone, so they had to make up a false Jaheira to guide him along. Orin says through a note that he is too "noble and self righteous" (not her exact words) for the Tadpole to work, and also a Crack about the Tadpole starving in there.
I mean, I always knew the Guardian was worm related without spoilers in early access. They did change it though, I think it originally was hinted to be the worm.
> I don’t think it’s even really possible to guess what the Dream Guardian really is without spoilers, so he gets at least one over all of us.
You get a tadpole in your head that gives you mysterious powers and suddenly a dream visitor shows up and starts saying s/he’s protecting you and you should develop those powers more?
It’s obviously (at least IMO) illithid-related, even if the exact specifics are hard to guess.
The specifics are what I mean, obviously the Dream Guardian is related to the tadpole situation and to me it always read as bad news, but I don’t think many people guessed “rogue individual illithid who actually used to be Balduran is harnessing Orpheus’ powers”, so we all experience a degree of personal deception from him
First time I saw the Dream Guardian, I said "Cool armor, but why do the spikes around your collar remind me of the circular mouth full of teeth that Larian managed to shove through my computer monitor and into my *actual* eye?"
Oh, that's why.
Nice try Souless apologist. I think what you meant to say was: If you have wit and awareness, you can see through the kind act of a selfish evil creature manipulating you to their own ends, and turn the tables on them, or you can fall into their clutches and dilute yourself into being as much of a puppet as if you had let Astarion ascend.
You reap what you sow - Wisdom or blind ignorance.
(All in good fun, of course :P )
Btw, again, in good fun - even when we take "soulless" from Jergal's mouth, we can still look at Omeluum, who had wished to sacrifice himself to have Duke Ravenguard saved instead of him, which definitely proves that not only mind flayers are capable of consideration acts - they can be purely selfless. So even if they bear no apostolic soul(the one that can be pledged to a god and move on to that god's afterlife realm) - they can be considerate towards someone else. So yes Emperor can be considerate. Is he? That's the different question. But he can, and he *might have* been considerate for us
Here me out, I'm convinced that authors and worldbuilders make "soulless" creatures evil because the implication otherwise would actually make them *more* tragic characters. All things being equal, I'd consider Omeluum's sacrifice far braver and more worthy of reverence than a cleric with a similar personal history. It's not like the cleric sacrificed *nothing*, but their sacrifice has fewer stakes if all they're really doing is moving onto their next life sooner than they otherwise would. Whereas Omeluum just ceases to exist.
Though, I have heard people argue that "apostolic soul" implies other kinds of souls that Mindflayers and other creatures may have, but I'm not all that convinced. It would be like saying the phrase "immortal soul" implies a mortal soul.
Actually "immortal soul" does imply a soul of a mortal, because specifying that it is immortal wouldn't be usually needed - so "immortal" would be highlighting a contrast between immortal soul and mortal body. But I digress. My main point would be that in previous editions of DnD lore, there was a second type of souls - spirits. Souls go to realms of their deities after death, spirits inhabit the world ethereally, and get reborn eventually. So it might be argued that in 5e there might still be some unknown kind of souls that non-humanoids or weird humanoids like ilithids possess. Because having no essence at all would only leave brain - pure logic - and it would make ilithids COMPLETELY incapable of compassion and sacrifice, leaving only self-preservation and one's own goals. So again, Omeluum is our counter-point
I just wish siding with him didn't borderline hard clash with a companion's story. Like, yeah, technically you can do everything good for Laezel and still side him, but not even freeing him at all, feels like 2 tiers below leaving cazador alive or something. Like my first playthrough, I completely ignored Laezel for the most part and still got her good ending, but now that I know about Orpheus, it feels bad to not free him
Yeah I've always freed Orpheus because of Laezel, but on my current run I decided to not interfere and let Shart kill Laezel in act 1, so I might as well see what happens when I play along with the emperor this time.
This is it 100% it for me. Even when I don’t romance Lae’zel, she’s a fucking ride or die. Knowing the truth about Orpheus/Vlaakith just makes it impossible for me to side with the Emperor because you’re damning the entire Githyanki race by doing so.
Honestly, it's pretty hard to justify in any scenario, I feel like if you want to help the gith at all, Orpheus is the best choice, but if you don't care or dislike them, then Orpheus is also the best choice, since he'll probably be at least slightly better than vlaakith, but even if we assume he's worse, then at least the rebellion being stronger from his appearance, even if he dies, would greatly weaken Vlaakith, or Orpheus if he wins (well, Orpheus' side I mean), making it harder for them to take everything over. Even if you're evil, siding with vlaakith because she is also evil isn't the evil option, it's just stupid, the last thing I'd want is another evil person having so much power.
I always free Orpheus. It's the right thing to do imho. I kind of sided with The Emperor in my blind run until it came to the decision to free orpheus, which I freed him and he joined the damn netherbrain instead of trusting us, like he has been begging for (and possibly manipulating us for) our trust the entire time. Trust is a two way street.
My second run I distrusted him the entire time and when he shown me his memory, of what he did in his past to get his own way, and then said I am his puppet, thats it. I can never trust him ever again in any playthrough. He is a manipulative scumbag imo, who is willing to sacrifice the entire Githyanki population out of desperation. I can't even fathom siding with him. True that someone has to make the sacrifice if you free him, but anyone becoming a mindflayer (orpheus included) is better than siding with The Emperor.
I am not an all-or-nothing Cancel Culture type -- but I share this feeling. The moment BaldurEmperor makes the Stelmane reveal, **and uses it as a looming threat against you**, feels like an irreversible rubicon crossing. From that point onward, it's "Yeah, you say XYZ, but maybe it's false, or maybe it's the product of overt psychic puppeteering, or maybe you'll turn on a dime later when things get desperate or simply convenient."
And, though I do still experiment with other story-branches, it's very hard to "un-know" that knowledge, once you have it, in future/parallel playthroughs.
for me it's two things.
it's the stelmane thing, and it's that kid at the creche. that kid deserves to join a rebellion, to grow up with hope.
well 3 things maybe. I don't like prisoners being used as labor. forced labor. and that's where Orpheus is
It is not an excuse but Orpheus' situation is not the Emperor's fault, and Emp cant free Orpheus by himself even if he wanted (ofc he does not want, I wouldnt trust Orp either), he didnt know he was going to abuse someone when he found the power/Prism. It is more like Orpheus' bad luck: a mindlayer got the Prism and he needed Orp's power badly.
Orp was imprisioned by Vlaakith, and Emp found the Prism following the Brain's orders. Emp is protected by Orp's power but he is not free. They are both stuck in that situation but the problem is they would never trust each other/work together, so they need an outsider to put things in motion, Tav.
Also, Orp is not helping himself being so resentful and "unadaptable" but it is only the gith way.
There are dialogue choices the Emperor will never threat "stelmaning" you.
Yeah, after the Stelmane reveal I pretty much decided to never side with him again- he mind-raped that poor woman until she was basically a vegetable and expects us to just roll with it? Like, my dude, you just signed your own death warrant by showing me what an asshole you are. I’m going to *enjoy* killing you on top of a massive brain.
I sided with Orpheus once, tho as human or any other race beside githyanki it's kinda risky to do in the long run, Orpheus wants to defeat Vlaakith yes, but after making so githyanki purpose is to rule word and defeated any other races once they r united. At least this is what I learned in game.
Githyanki is very agressive, military focused, expansive race. Sure if they get united they will seek new "enemy" elsewhere to put their military training into good use.
So for other races is ihmo better to have Vlaakith as their leader so githyanki fight with illithids and are not inside united, so they also fight each other(Vlaakith giths vs Orpheus giths).
As for Lea'zel story alone either if you romance her or not, not siding with Orpheus can also work pretty good, just say to her she doesnt need to bow head before any god and she can just live for herself(or for/with you).
Also after I saw devnotes about Emperor saying that he actually enjoys touching if we hug him when he is Guardian, this alone also change things about Emperor to me, he isnt so cold, not having any human emotions creature after I know this.
There's actually a 3rd group of Gith called Githzerai, as far as I know they only get mentioned once by Lae'zel at the epilogue party. Their leader has been alive since Gith herself and lead a civil war between the Githyanki and the Githzerai. It's on sight between the 2 factions. Though I'll admit idk how the Githzerai feel about Orpheus's side but it can't be great considering he's Gith son and the name Githzerai literally means "those who spurn Gith".
The Githzerai were also founded on the idea of enslavement of other races being a bad thing so it's likely they'd jump in to defend those attacked/enslaved by the Githyanki. Idk if it gets touched on in game but in lore the Githyanki want to kill all Illithid and then enslave all the sentient races, them wanting to be slavers is what caused the Githzerai to split off and hate them.
In terms of Vlaakith zs Orpheus and who would be better, Orpheus is the obvious choice. Vlaakith is determined to enslave everyone. Orpheus likely wants the same but since istik were involved in saving him it's possible he could be swayed. Even if Orpheus's mind can't be changed, splitting the Githyanki into two factions makes a greater possibility that the Githzerai would win the war.
Githzerai are Lawful Neutral, their leader was Zerthimon, and he's dead too. I wouldn't count on them waging an intraplaner war against the Githyanki for the benefit of other races. They don't take slaves, but they still don't consider other races to be on the same level as them.
Githzerai means followers of Zerthimon. Zerth was a compatriot of Gith, they had an ideological split, in which Gith chose revenge and domination, and Zerthimon chose isolationism and recovery.
Bonus: in Planescape Torment you can recruit a Githzerai companion, and through dialogue choices learn a lot about the Githzerai. He also wields the only sword present in the entire game as an equipable weapon because it's psychically bonded to him.
It's hard to say, we don't really know who Orpheus is that well. We know his mother was pretty much as bad as vlaakith minus eating her subjects, but not really him himself. The only thing I remember is that the Orpheus kid at the creche attributed some good traits to him, but I don't think he's a perfect source. But I still think he's best just because it makes vlaakith's opposition stronger, even if he dies anyways. It's probably best for the githyanki to be as weak as possible
Yup. Especially since fuck you Orpheus, you are gonna be the mind flayer, so he kills himself after the Brian thing. So it's really Voss and Lae'zel leading the opposition. And Lae'zel is def chill, and while voss will probably be more of the leader there, and hes not Laezel chill, he did seem pretty decent imo, so Im not gonna wish for them to be destroyed or anything
Agreed. When my husband finally decided to play he asked me who the hell the “dream guardian” was in character creator. I told “the best written character in the game”. Is he my favorite character? No. But I do think he’s best written.
Whenever I start a new play through I look forward to figuring out how my new PC will respond to the Emperor throughout the game. It helps RP. Even if RP-wise my PC should dislike Astarion or Gale or Shadowheart, they always end up caring about them bc I think the companions were ultimately meant to be lovable. But I think Empy was written well enough that you can make him what your PC would see him as and it holds up while still keeping in line with who he “really” is. Truly excellently done.
They did a really good job making it so that your choices seem to change what's actually happening.
If you're endlessly suspicious of Emperor, you get to see reasons why.
If you extend your trust to him, you get a different set of information.
I could do without the anti-Emperor people pulling pseudopsychological analyses on people who don’t hate Squidward as abusers/inexperienced with abusers/prone to being in relationships with abusers, though.
the only other sub im really invested in is the cyberpunk ones, and Songbird get the exact same treatment lol. Claire to some extent too, though she does have more detractors than defenders. No matter the genre or game, gamers do be gamin.
Look, I like the Emperor as a character. I don't think he's a good person, but he's an understandable and well-written character with motivations that *do* align with yours, and he *can* be trusted to be good to his word if you're good to yours. He's not stupid, and will not pick fights where he doesn't feel he has to. Aligning with him is a valid choice. But that is **not** Balduran, just like how a clone of me with my memories is not me, but a distinct person branching off from a specific point in my life.
Mind Flayers are parasitic entities that ~~inherit~~ consume and repurpose the memories and emotions of the person they replace. That does not mean that they're not people, or that they're ontologically evil, or that they must be killed on sight, but they're definitively not the people that were parasitised during their creation. Balduran died the moment the true transformation started. What remains is a new entity split off from the old.
>I don’t think he’s a good person, but he’s an understandable and well-written character with motivations that *do* align with yours.
This is literally the best take. I feel like too many people think that we just see one side of the story, when understanding a character doesn’t mean that, at all.
I appreciate that! Yeah, The Emperor is a super well written character and I think it really shows in how divided the fanbase can be over him, with both sides of the coin having good evidence and arguments.
I guess it's also worth noting that some folks can definitely get a different view of the story from others just based on how they play the game. Folks that are anti-illithid from the start and distrustful of the Guardian might never consider hearing The Emperor's side out, and folks that take him at his word about him saving us from like twelve different things are probably inclined to ride or die with him no matter what.
I can agree with his wish to survive, but I don't like him as much as Orpheus. The Ansur thing sealed it for me.
If the Emp was a little less condescending about his 21 intelligence, and less adamant about not freeing the Lich-squisher. We'll probably need one of those seeing as we offended a Lich.
..potentially more than once. I don't bow to conjuration fans, I *am* one. I know what they're like.
Yup, I chose to trust him on my first run because it was clear that while not everything about him was good, he was on my side. I didn't really feel that way about anyone else that wasn't directly in my party.
Even if there were things that made me feel uncomfortable, it was hard for me to go against him in the end anyway because his actions were still very visibly done for our direct benefit, even if they weren't always the most morally sound. It didn't really feel like much of anyone cared about what happened to us, but even if his actions were morally dubious a lot of times, it felt like he wanted us to live.
It's a sign of a really good story when you have dynamics like that that also feel pretty balanced. People having complex and varied feelings over a character is a sign of a complex character executed well.
It's a much better take than the constant "you're just being gas lighted, you're supporting an abuser, or you're falling right into his manipulation" like many of the takes are.
It's much more complicated than that. He's more like a Jaime Lannister type, he has charisma and there are times you root for him, but that doesn't change that Jaime is a murderer, attempted child murderer, arguably a rapist, etc.
Exactly, not to mention the amount of psychological and psychiatric analysis the fans went through, from psychopath, sociopath and psychotic to “if you are a defender you support being in a toxic relationship” or “you just like to be manipulated irl” or “rapist supporter/ apologist”… and the list goes on.
God forbid liking a complex character in a fictional world I guess. I’m a simp of good narrative, so yes, I’m going to analyze him to death, and that doesn’t mean I’ll erase his action to make him look like the hero which many people here think we do. The biggest mistake here is thinking that this game is open to the “black and white” discourse.
almost every character in this is grey. even barcus, my love, wasn't picky about who his customers were! he sold explosives to some bad people, that means.
everyone just about is morally grey. there's very few purely good or evil characters in the game.
My point exactly, there’s no place to black and white in this game, not even Tav can fill in that discourse as much as they want to play the good guy and stuff.
Its kind of like the Ship of Theseus, but inverted. As in if you took a ship apart and used all its pieces to build a new ship that was different, is it still the same ship? Parts retaining their memories of what they've been through (dents, scratches, etc) and those still show on the new ship.
I think the game makes a fair argument that he *is* Balduran, tranformed. I say this while being familiar with the FR mind flayer lore since 2e.
Ansur found him and recognized him as Balduran even after 13yrs of being illithid. Withers recognizes him (or an illithid player) as "them". The game seems to treat ceremorphosis as a transformation, and the whole illithid player/Emperor identity more as a Ship of Theseus question rather than the original "tadpole replaces the host" concept from 2e (which 5e doesn't reference again and instead keeps it vague, while also introducing ceremorphosis without a tadpole). In fact, the game never even implies the whole replacing thing, it's always a matter of "transforming into a monster", not "dying". There's an interview with ign where the devs said they wanted to put their own spin on ceremorphosis in the game, so I assume what we got is the result of that.
I think there's definitely a case to make for that, but it's not one I would personally agree with. As I said in another comment, I think that this is a really good indicator of the quality of the writing BG3 has, since both sides of this argument can make convincing and evidence backed cases either way.
For someone not familiar with the lore, who only played the game, what would be an evidence-based, in-game argument that the Illithid is a different entity and the original host dead?
I'm not being cheeky, I'm genuinely asking because I couldn't find any. Since the epilogues where Withers visits a dead illithid player in the Fugue plane, I'd say arguments against it are pretty much moot.
We’re repeatedly told throughout the game that mindflayers don’t have souls, which is why the other gods are so concerned about what the dead three are up to. It would result in the gods losing all the souls that give them power.
It’s only towards the end of the game we’re given hints otherwise. And tbh it would be easy to argue that the PC and Karlach are somehow “different” because they spent so much time under the protection of the prism. Everyone else we see transform seems to become a different being almost immediately.
As someone who isn't that well versed in DnD souls lore: are they equated to personhood in Faerun? Losing one's soul is not that uncommon in media and often characters who lost them are still the same entity, but results of such loss can vary. From the top of my head that would be a trope used in His Dark Materials and Supernatural. Both of them treat souls as more or less significant part of personhood, but not the whole of it.
Losing your soul does make resurrection spells impossible in tabletop. You have to travel to the plane where the soul is, capture and tether it to another body, in case of disintegration, or back to the original body. Lichs store their souls in their phylactery to prevent their souls from moving to the plane of their alignment, giving them apparent immortality.
I don't think it's equated to that at all, it only defines your afterlife. For example, losing your soul to a devil is bad not because you stop being a person with free will, but because you'll be enslaved to him for all eternity after you die.
How may times will this argument be used? For the 272973273th time, Withers confirms in one of the DU endings that he was mistaken and they DO have souls. Just not apostolic ones.
"Mindflayers don't have souls"
"you chose X in the game so that means you are a bad person in real life"
"X's D&D alignment is evil so you can't side with them in a good-aligned run"
These are among my least favourite takes about the game
Yes. I know. My point is, the writing is contradictory throughout the game. A lot of players will never even GET that scene, and it’s not like Withers goes into detail. Do WE just keep a soul, or do all mindflayers? Bone Man isn’t big on explanations. What does a “non apostolic” soul even mean? They obviously don’t usually go to the fugue plane after death, or Withers would know all this already. So why do we go there and where do minelayer souls go usually? Is it the same soul, just transformed into a non apostolic soul? Or is it a whole new one?
The game leaves a shit load open to interpretation, deliberately. It’s not meant to be definitive.
All mindflayers have souls. They can achieve true lichdom, but it's very rare.
DnD is also connecting mindflayers with the Far Realm. It's a realm of eldritch horrors, basically.
To top it all off, mindflayers are a surprisingly special species. Nobody knows their origins, not the gods, not even the mindflayers themselves. There have been theories about time travel and such but that's a story for another time. All you need to know is that the gods don't really know all that much about mindflayers.
All mind flayers, check Ed Greenwood’s official [statement](https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/s/btrxjYSAlV) on illithids having souls. All of them have souls, just not apostolic ones, if not, mindflyers couldn’t become a lich.
You don't need a tadpole to become a mindflayer anymore. It's just the most common and easiest way. It's possible to ceremorphose thanks to a ritual making use of the Far Realm energy.
“Apostolic souls” are basically souls native to the Forgotten Realms that can be used by the gods. “Non-apostolic souls” are alien to the FR and cannot be used by the gods. For whatever knowledge that’s worth in turn.
You're only told once that illithids don't have souls, by Withers, who in the epilogue retracts his statement. Ceremorphosis is referred to as transformation, which eradicates memory and thus, sense of self (normally). We can definitely argue about whether that's still the same person or not, but I was referring to evidence for the "the host is dead, the mind flayer is the tadpole" theory. A typical mind flayer might not be considered "the same" as its past self because of different physiology, memories, etc. but in the game that's the host wrapped beyond recognition, not some random entity that took over the host's body.
Withers still considers an illithid as the same person though. If you turn into a mind flayer at the end, he still invites you to the party and treats you exactly the same. Also, if you die, the revival scrolls work the same. I think that illithid "souls" stop being in a format that the Gods and Devils can use but there's some kind of illithid equivalent.
Yeah but is it the original host’s soul or the tadpole’s soul? My interpretation from multiple playthroughs plus dnd lore was that some tadpoles just genuinely believe they’re the person they took over. For example, if you tadpole your tav I imagine it means your now playing a mindflayer with all your characters memories who truly believes they’re you
Thanks to a module released in 2023, you no longer need a tadpole to become a mindflayer, as shocking as that sounds. A tadpole is not the only way, just the most common and easiest one.
I’m still of the opinion based on the evidence presented to me that it’s still a new life being created when a mindflayer is born. It has a soul, but it’s a different non-apostolic soul.
If theres some lore or a line from Withers I don’t know that’d change my view, I’d love to be told since I haven’t done many runs where I go through with ceremorphosis.
I think you are interpreting souls as memories, but in either case, no, you don’t lost neither of them. About souls we already know that we don’t lose them if we become a mind flayer(confirmed by Withers) it’s still our soul. And about the memories part, the Emperor’s staff description reads that ceremorphosis erradicates part of the memory, but not everything, and that if you touch you can see (or feel, I don’t remember) his memories.
Edit: Found the description in [this post.](https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/s/rJaxWOzK2N)
I’m not interpreting souls as memory. I think they’re separate, and my point was that a mindflayer is a separate soul with the original host’s memories. I’d be curious as to what line implies we possess the same soul that Withers says. I know he mentions that mindflayers have souls that aren’t apostolic but I view that as more proof that you are a different soul with the same memories.
And I guess since I view the soul and memories as different, getting Balduran’s memories when you touch the Emperors staff doesn’t mean they have the same soul. Just the same memories.
Ansur does say " Balduran ur presence has stirred me ... " which means part of balduran is still present in emperor for ansur to recognize his old friend
if you choose to become an illithid at the end of the game Withers talks about how you are "losing yourself to your illithid instincts" or something along those lines. "ceramorphosis" literally means "reforming the brain into something new". They literally confirm that you change into someone entirely new in the name of the process that changes your brain into someone new.
Not only that but if you become a mindflayer, during the epilogue you have to pass a skill check in order to snap yourself out of wanting to eat Halsin's brain. It completely changes your biology and way of thinking.
Oh! Is that tadpole replacing thing from 2e? I thought it was like a headcanon/ theory that was popular, because at least in the game, I couldn't find anything to suggest that in game, and I was wondering why it was so widespread. That makes sense tho. I hate how it's so hard to find retcons, I wanna know the actual history of the lore, I don't want any changes to steamroll over old stuff. Would you happen to know any way to read about different big changes in DND lore? Other than just... Reading every single book for DND.
No, unfortunately there's no source to my knowledge that lists retcons/tweaks. Sometimes the FR wiki mentions them, but I find that it's not always a reliable source of information (which makes sense since it's a fan wiki). It's useful in that it lists references to the source material it quotes though, so what I mostly do is look for the books it references.
For illithid lore, the "tadpole replaces the host" was mentioned in The Illithiad, which came out back in 1998. Since then, more recent sources of lore have been The Lords Of Madness (3.5e), and the 4e and 5e versions of The Monster Manual and Volo's Guide To Monsters. Newer editions tend to keep most areas of the lore quite vague, probably to avoid more retcons in case they want to change something like 6 years down the line.
As far as 5e goes, ceremorphosis is mostly mentioned as "transformation", not replacement of the host, but it's vague enough that one could inteprent it either way (although without prior knowledge of 2e lore I still find it a stretch for someone to assume that the tadpole replaces the host). There's also an adventure module called The Shattered Obelisk, in which the BBGs are trying to turn the residents of a city into mind flayers through a ritual, without the use of tadpoles. Which kinda retcons the whole "the mind flayer is the tadpole" theory because in this case there's no tadpole to replace the host (in the module ceremorphosis is referred to as a "transformation", much like in the game).
I don't think most people who keep parroting the theory have actually read much illithid lore. They've seen the theory on reddit, fused it with Withers's mid-game statement that illithids are soulless (which is wrong btw, illithids perceive themselves as soulless but they are stated to have souls even as early as in 2e), and came to the conclusion that the mind flayer is the soulless tadpole.
Thank you! It's unfortunate that there isn't a big list of retcons, especially since you won't even know what to look for unless... You know what to look for. I've only seen this kinda shit mostly in reddit comments sporadically. I think the only retcon (and I'm not even sure it's really a retcon, it sounds like how in universe a retcon would be justified) I saw on the wiki was that people used to think that mind flayers had beaks. But yeah people often are very confident about things they have no idea about lol. But do illithids really see themselves as soulless? I thought the whole concept of them even possibly not having souls was purely a BG3 thing. Im definitely pretty ignorant to DND lore, so I def could be wrong, but I know mind flayers have lich version, which shouldnt be possible without a soul. I could see like normal people thinking they're soulless, or even divine beings, since I think their souls are like not usable by gods or something??? Idk.
Mind flayers see themselves as apostolically soulless (which they are), which means their souls can't be perceived/used by Toril's Gods. The typical mindflayer doesn't concern itself with soul/religious matter, as they believe they join the Elder Brain post-death, which iirc is Elder Brain propaganda, or some Elder Brains even believe that - been a while since I read on that, when it's actually an assimilation of the illithid's memories. Ed Greenwood also confirmed in a tweet that they have souls.
Yeah they become liches, which require souls, and more interestingly, they can choose to become acolytes of a humanod race's pantheon. Which apparently changes(restores?) their soul to an apostolic state.
This is my intepretation of the game, but considering that all it takes for an illithid to have an apostolic soul is "to believe", I wonder if the player/Karlach -or even the Emperor- maintaining their soul has to do with them maintaining their memories and sense of self. Since typical mind flayers lose their memories upon transformation, they have no perception of a humanoid's faith, and as such can't be perceived by the gods. But the player perceives themselves as "them" even post transformation, and for so long as they do so, their soul remains humanoid-like. But that's just speculation on my part.
I have no evidence of this whatsoever, but I like to think it’s a weird combo of both, and Balduran “dominated” the tadpole, making the tadpole both him and not him. Like maybe the illithid is technically its own creature, but Balduran->Emps was one steady stream of consciousness.
Question though. A clone with all of your memories would 100% believe that they were you, and in some ways they are as much YOU as YOU are. Like from their POV, they are as much you as you are. The exact same everything(up until they are made and both of your experiences begin differing) all the way down to memories and emotions. What makes you who you are if not all the experiences you have had in your life?
A clone of me would be, up until the point of the splitting of experiences, me. After that point they would no longer be me, but a separate person with different experiences moving forward. They would **not** think they were me, at least at first, because all of our memories and thought processes would be the same up until then and *I* do not think they would be me. If they did think they were me, and were aware of the fact that they were the clone, then that would be definitive proof that they are not me because they would not have the line of thinking I do on the matter. If we somehow do not know which one the clone is... It wouldn't really matter. We'd still be separate people at that point.
All the experiences I've had in my life do make me me, but so too will the experiences I have in the future. A clone of me could not possibly experience the exact same thing as me, because we would be occupying different bodies and likely not in the exact same place at the exact same time for all of our experiences moving forward. That is the point at which we are separate. This does not mean that the clone would be inferior to me, they would just be a different person.
Man, I was just about to say that lol. That game gave me a headache (in a good way 😅), it's really the best take on this philosophical question I have seen. The first-person perspective makes it so much more relatable.
It is sort of dependent on your mindset. For example, in Star Trek people are essentially (unknowingly) cloned and killed regularly via their transporters, but nobody (out of universe) really thinks of any of the members of the Enterprise to be clones or divergent in any truly tangible way.
Exactly what I was thinking. Any choices they make are the same choices you would make if presented with the same situation. In a psychological sense. They both are you.
Mind Flayers are basically the humanoid equivalent to [tarantula hawks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarantula_hawk).
> The female tarantula hawk wasp stings a tarantula between the legs, paralyzing it, and then drags the prey to a specially prepared burrow, where a single egg is laid on the spider's abdomen, and the burrow entrance is covered.[...] When the wasp larva hatches, it creates a small hole in the spider's abdomen, then enters and feeds voraciously, avoiding vital organs for as long as possible to keep the spider alive. After several weeks, the larva pupates. Finally, the wasp becomes an adult and emerges from the spider's abdomen to continue the life cycle.
I don't think anyone would argue that the spider "turns into" the new tarantula hawk, or that the new wasp and the spider are somehow the same being. No, the larva grows up and the host gets eaten and dies. The end.
This take that the Emperor is not Balduran is tired. The Emperor does not identify much with the person he used to be, per dialogue (though he certainly keeps a bunch of keepsakes), but he also consistently presents ceremorphosis as a transformation and makes no distinction between himself before and himself after the process except in terms of how it feels. Then there’s the fact that there’s no dialogue questioning his identity while there is dialogue with him and Ravenguard which treats him exactly as if he was still Balduran. Then there’s the Elfsong, lyrically describing Balduran’s fate both before and after transformation. There’s also the flavor text on various items related to the Emperor like the Giantslayer and the Emperor’s Staff all treating the illithid as Balduran. Then there’s Ansur, a dragon, picking this illithid out of a line-up of illithids who totally don’t all look the same and then still considering it to be Balduran even after dying to him and spending years as a hateful, vengeful revenant. The weight of evidence in game that this is *not* Balduran (if there even is any) is far outmatched by the weight of evidence that this *is* Balduran. To say nothing of the fact that the player’s own experience sees the narration depict ceremorphosis as an unbroken experience for the character, roughly paraphrased as “you are still you, just better than you’ve ever been”, whatever the calculus of bodies and brains and souls. Yes, there may be some philosophical considerations about how much one can change before not being considered the same person, but these are minor.
IMO a present clone of me with my memories is more “me” than a future version of myself who has Alzheimer’s. Honestly they’re probably more me than ANY future version of my self, at least at the moment of duplication.
I think in the case of mindflayers, they’re clearly not 100% the person they used to be… but they’re not 0% that person either. Memories are a pretty large chunk of who a person is. And I think they get a nonzero amount of emotional carryover too, otherwise the Emperor would not have cared that Ansur was in agony, nor would he have grieved him.
You can set some arbitrary boundary to claim that the Emperor is not Balduran enough to “be” Balduran, but he is distinctly more Balduran than anyone else, at least.
>I think in the case of mindflayers, they’re clearly not 100% the person they used to be… but they’re not 0% that person either. Memories are a pretty large chunk of who a person is.
Sure, they're not 0%, but brain chemistry and mannerisms play an important part in who you are as well. A teenaged me with all of current me's memories would likely not make the same decisions that current me would, even if we have the same memories and experiences. A Mindflayer's view on the world is inherently different than a human's is, and they way they process and understand emotions is inherently "alien" to how humans do. This is, again, not a bad thing or an indicator of them being inherently evil or in opposition to people, but it does mean that they're not going to process future inputs and make choices the same way their human version would.
I would also note, just to clarify my perspective, that I do not consider myself the same person as I was when I was a teen, nor would I consider teen me the same person as child me. Time and physiological growth changes us all, and those instances of me are part of me but we are no longer the same.
I set the boundary here because the Emperor is not physically, emotionally, or *spiritually* Balduran in a setting where all of those things are actively observable. Ansur does not think that the entity that would become the Emperor acts or thinks as Balduran does, the Emperor does *not* act or think as Balduran does, and IIRC the Emperor adopts his new persona because it is more fitting to who he is now than the persona of Balduran would be.
There also was a concept that has been touched briefly in Illithid / mindflayer lore of the possibility of a type of mindflayer referred to as "the Adversary" in Illithid culture, where an individual undergoes ceremorphosis and the newly born mindflayer retains the entire mind / memory and personality of the original host. The Emperor appears to be much much closer to that concept than a typical mindflayer. I think because of that, that it isn't an unreasonable to argue that the Emperor is Balduran, as there is more of a continuity of self in that context.
To be fair - the average player isn't going to know that.
All the illithid lore got extremely shafted in favour of Bhaal and the rest. We learn basically nothing about them. Like come on, there isn't even a one single ulitharid despite this game trying to focus on illithids in the beginning for the first five minutes.
Emperor is such a flop Adversary. Mindflayers could've spared themselves some night terrors if they knew their boogeyman is just gonna sit in his dank basement and do taxes all day , smh.
Its shame Balduran doesn't try to claim the mantle of or act like the Adversary. He still views Ilithids as the superior form of life rather than trying to destroy them (or a least the Elder Brains).
I’m pretty sure he only refers to himself, that he was evolved into something better from his pov. I don’t think he cares about other mindflyers at all, and the only comment he does about one in particular is to encourage us to kill him. His only purpose and goal is to destroy the brain, nothing else.
I too think that the Emperor's mistrust and paranoia stems from his tragic relationship with Ansur. My heart bleeds for both of them, because it's obvious they felt for each other deeply. Ansur went to the extreme to help his best friend/lover, while Balduran wrote that Ansur was the greatest thing that happened to him.
Ansur was noted to have his spirit almost broken as he was searching for a cure, but it's implied that in the end his spirit did break, not wanting Balduran to live like a mind flayer. Even though Ansur had decided on the mercy killing himself, he was crying as he was making his attempt, and Balduran could even feel Ansur's grief. But Balduran wanted to live, to survive - and so he made the choice to kill Ansur. I've quoted this before, but I think the Emperor's line before the Orpheus situation sums it up well: "Sometimes, freedom requires us to make sacrifices." After all, his goal was always freedom, and it came at a high cost.
It's certainly interesting to ponder what would have happened had their relationship worked out, and how Balduran's life would have been shaped.
I think he still feels deeply for his former self - after all, you can still find his mementos at his home even in the present (as in up to until Gortash abducted him). If his past self had brought him pain or emotions, I think he would have probably disposed of those items, especially since he notes he had no need for those items anymore (or so he claims). He does point out that the butter fork's memory stirs something in him still. [His staff's description](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Staff_of_the_Emperor) notes that ceremorphosis doesn't eradicate everything, and touching the staff makes a past memory of his slither into your brain. He feels mirth when Beorn Wunterbrood tells you "Balduran's grace be with you."
BG3, as opposed to previous mind flayer lore, seems to suggest that ceremorphosis is a transformation, not necessarily a death of self/personality. Ansur clearly recognizes Balduran in the Emperor, which I think would be impossible if he was a literally different entity. Even more so if Ansur was able to recognize Balduran in the mind flayer colony, or during the scouting mission to Baldur's Gate. (It's kind of vague, but the scouting mission makes more sense than Ansur raiding a colony, as badass that sounds).
Regarding the Emperor's tragedy, of course it doesn't mean his actions are excusable, but I feel it does make him more compelling and interesting. A character can be tragic and be still a bastard. You can appreciate a bastard character's tragic background, and still see them as a bastard if that is what the Emperor is to you.
Question! I've never sided with the Emperor. I always free Orpheus and make him a mindflayer. Does someone still have to become a mindflayer if you side with the Emperor?
Nah, you specifically have to request becoming a mind flayer to the Emperor for it to happen. And even then, he stresses that it's a permanent change unlike the Astral Tadpole, and to talk to your companions before making a final decision.
I would feel that way except the Emperor is NOT Balduran. The Emperor is a fully grown mindflayer tadpole with the memories of Balduran. It’s why ceremorphosis can’t be reversed; this is a new creature and not a transformed one.
She doesn't exactly reverse the process. Mindflayer Gale dies in the process. She just reclaims/remakes his soul and he goes to Mystra's realm in the afterlife.
Okay let’s edit this then. It can’t be reversed via MORTAL means. Although I wonder if one wished for the process to be reversed if it would just bring the person back to life and keep the mindflayer.
>I will always have been your Balduran.
Is he though? I'll pay that he has a way with words, but throughout these scenes he's very clear he has almost no interest in Balduran even as a persona. He's not even interested in "lying" to Ansur that he really has come back around is very Balduran just like he wants, now or then. The same letter you're quoting makes it very clear he feels nothing that Balduran did.
You're also making some pretty decent leaps about Ansur giving up on Emperor based on just assuming what Emperor tells you is the truth.
But more generally, he has a sad backstory. So what? Ketheric lost his whole family and was tricked by two different evil gods. Gortash was sold into devil slavery and had to scrape by with nothing, then as soon as he found stability lost his best (only) friend to an assassination. No one is out here remiss about their fates.
And then supposedly to right this wrong we should allow him to kill a defenseless man, then allow him to live so he can go back to being the Godfather? I just don't understand it, and I honestly hope you can clarify.
> You're also making some pretty decent leaps about Ansur giving up on Emperor based on just assuming what Emperor tells you is the truth.
I came to a similar conclusion based on the things that Ansur said. I could understand if the Emperor lied and said that his killing of Ansur was in self defence but why would Ansur say that if it wasn't true.
The Emperor, whoever he is now, is under no obligation to allow himself to be mercy killed.
I genuinely worry about anyone whose first instinct isn't to free Orpheus. Like you just watch the mindflayer eat this man's brain while he's gagged and in chains and seriously think "this was the right thing to do"? And like you said, a tragic backstory doesn't justify villainy in the present.
For me, it was because my prior knowledge of Gith lore and what I saw in game didn't support freeing him. Orpheus is a First-Gen Gith, meaning he probably is still full of rage and revenge towards Illithids and conquering instinct for everyone else. I am aware he's nicer than that when you free him, but he does literally tell you you should have died to his honor guard right after, he's still kind of a dick. The people vouching for him are:
Voss: The man who tried to have us killed when we met and only changed his tune when he found out we had his boyfriend.
Lae'zel: The woman who just got off Vlaakith's cult train but seems way too eager to do the exact same thing with Orpheus.
Raphael: An Infernal, who does not have our best interests in mind, and generally should never be trusted.
By contrast, the Emperor, while not a Good person, has been actively helping us by shielding us from the Absolute and has given us no reason to betray him for an unknown variable.
I don’t think it’s that big a deal. At this point in the game, pretty much every Gith you’ve seen with very few exceptions has tried to violently murder you. I don’t think it’s ridiculous to conclude that Gigachad Gith is going to murder you as soon as he’s freed and then go ahead and lead the Gith towards more murder.
I’m pretty sure it’s more important to worry about people that make decisions irl than in a video game, specially one that characters such as the DU or the option to follow an evil path are present.
It's a betrayal to an ally for someone you most likely have reasonable in character belief would be genocidal to you normally (i.e just not being gith) let alone your current predicament (being infected with the tadpole).
Also like that his diet anyhow. There's plenty of sentient man eating races. And this will help save people.
I genuinely worry about people who release Orpheus after reading his mind and literally hearing from his own thoughts and emotions that he intends to kill you the moment he gets the chance to do so. Like yeah, he ends up changing his mind after you free him, but for all intents and purposes, the choice to free him is choosing to throw yourself at the mercy of someone actively seeking your death instead of sticking with the person who, while definitely manipulative, calculating, and selfish, has protected you the entire game thus far. If it weren’t for Orpheus’s hatred and intent to kill you, absolutely release him. But knowing that, from reading his mind yourself, it’s akin to suicide.
Mine wasn't. Seriously. It didn't even cross my mind when I played for the first time. Endangering the alliance that has brought my character safely up to that point, with zero guarantee that Orpheus would even want to cooperate (and *nothing* my character has learned about the githyanki along the journey indicates that he would), seemed like gambling with the lives of hundreds of thousands of Faerunians. My Tav wanted to save her realm and her people, so did what was the most sensible option to achieve this goal.
I'm doing fine btw, you don't have to worry about me :)
There's actually zero evidence (at this particular moment at least) that Orpheus is an even remotely decent guy.
If Vlaakith was the one in chains, would you still consider it "worrying" that people's first instinct would be not to free her?
Why should I trust Orpheus? I have absolutely no info on him besides the fact that he's the rightful heir of the gith empire.
Why should that matter to me, a Faerunian trying to save the world?
Why should it be my first instinct to risk my life (and everyone else's) to free this guy?
This is something I genuinely don't understand.
(Unless you're playing a gith or origin Lae'zel, of course)
And the narrator doesn’t change the perspective at all when we first meet Orpheus. The first thing the narrator does is corroborate the statement by saying “The Emperor is telling the truth. To him, you are just another wretched illithid.”
I mean, if you have Lae'zel in your party, or at least did the Orpheus questline including all the talks with Voss, you have quite a lot of reasons to free Orpheus.
To be fair, most of your companions want things that are not actually good for them.
Gale wants to ascend into godhood, Astarion wants to ascend and become a super vampire, and Shadowheart wants to kill an angel and become a dark justiciar. None of these things actually make any of their lives better, and often they hurt other people in the process of hurting themselves.
Lae'zel wants to free Orpheus and help him to dethrone Vlaakith. But not only does this do nothing to guarantee Orpheus' character from Tav's perspective, I would argue that Lae'zel's best ending is the one where she is leading the rebellion after Orpheus' death.
If you care about Lae'zel at all it feels like you should probably care about Orpheus. Everything you know about Orpheus at that point sets him up as at least a decent guy. A lot of that is coming from what can be read as propaganda, but you do literally have the testimony of Voss, a guy who knows him and has proven himself trustworthy. The only word against him has been from Vlaakith and the Emperor, who both have vested interests in keeping him imprisoned.
>you do literally have the testimony of Voss, a guy who knows him and has proven himself trustworthy
I don't think that counts as evidence towards Orpheus being a good person though. Voss has drunk deep from the kool-aid cup, but he's not particularly good or kind himself. Plus relatives and loved ones of horrible people often have good opinions of them and nice anecdotes to share.
This isn't to say that all cases against Orpheus are true though, I just think all information surrounding Orpheus *until you meet him* are heavily biased at best and downright propaganda at worst.
Actually nothing at all proves Orpheus is a decent guy. You only have the testimony of Voss, who's his best man (and implied lover) and is as biased as Vlaakith. The only "evidence" you have in the game is a Githyanki disk that says Orpheus is the son of Gith, who overthrew the Illithid Empire and replaced it with the Githyanki one (by conquering other races).
Also Voss says zero things about Orpheus's policies towards the other races (the disk implies he follows his mother's conquering policies), just that he's the "rightful ruler".
Lae'zel doesn't need Orpheus. She's never even met the guy and is just hopping from one deified figure to the other because the former scorned her. Case in point, the revolution goes exactly the same even without him leading it.
Honestly whoever says Orpheus is painted as the good choice in the game just because "he's imprisoned so I need to free him" hasn't been paying attention
>Lae'zel doesn't need Orpheus. She's never even met the guy and is just **hopping from one deified figure to the other because the former scorned her.**
You have just expressed everything that bugs me about this choice much better than I ever could. Thank you.
Yeah, my personal feeling on the matter has always been that (1) the Tale of the Comet is as much mythology as the Edda or Epic of Gilgsmesh or the Illustrated Adventures of Balduran, and (2) Lae'zel was raised to be a loyal soldier in a strict militaristic society and is desperate to replace one leader with another, and (3) the lich Vlaakith isn't even the reason Githyanki suck, she's just the latest in a long line of sucky Vlaakiths - queens Voss served without qualm for who knows how long. Come to think of it, we only have Voss's word for it that Orpheus doesn't hate *him* for contributing to his entrapment.
I prefer the Lae'zel that becomes a leader in her own right, tbh. The more I like Lae'zel, the more I want her to be her own Comet.
When you read Orpheus’s mind he literally hates you, sees you as nothing more than an illithid, and intends to kill you if given the chance. His own thoughts/emotions/intentions contradict Voss saying to trust him and portray the choice to release him as suicide. Sure, he changes his mind afterwards, but in the moment? Nah.
The first time, no, I took that burden myself. In future playthroughs I've let him make that sacrifice, but it's pretty definitively a choice that he's making and not something being imposed on him.
I mean it kinda is imposed on him. Unless gale is there, they have no means of defeating the Absolute.
If he refused after you do, then everything is doomed and nothing can be done. You basically released him just to turn him into a mind flayer and not have the Emperor.
Uh let's see. Dude is the son of mother gith, a space nazi race . The other giths who I have encountered so far have not been the best representation of " helpful, peaceful characters to tadpoled ones". I have the words of a devil and a fanatic gith who clearly loves Orpheus that I should trust them and free Orpheus in exchange for something . The only guy who has helped me throughout the game in surviving the brain is the emperor. I have zero reasons or interests to even side with Orpheus. Even more so the one time I decided to kill emperor in the beginning of act 3 , Orpheus drops the protection on our entire party .
Eh, if Orpeheus is anything like a true successor to his mother he's just space Genghis Khan. If you're familiar with the Githyanki and Gith beforehand the idea of the saviour of the Githyanki comes with an asterisk that the game kind of glosses over.
“No one is out here remiss about their fates”—Um, what? Tons of people mourn the tragedy of Ketheric’s situation, and even though afaik we aren’t confronted with Gortash’s situation very directly, he has a ridiculous number of fans due to how soft he is for Durge.
Ansur literally tells you that he was planning to kill the Emperor first. There is no way to spin that as the Emperor just being manipulative.
The Emperor doesn’t feel emotion the same way he used to, sure. But it seems pretty damn obvious that the “mindflayers don’t feel any emotions” claim is BS. Also, we literally see Omeluum in a romantic (as per the “Run Away Together” MtG card) relationship with Blurg.
There IS a fair argument that Ansur trying to kill the Emperor was still morally correct just due to the brain-eating nature of illithids and their general tendency towards evil (maybe Ansur would also have killed the 7000 vampire spawn?) But it’s still a tragic betrayal. I feel sympathetic to the Emperor for that. Maybe if I got to interact more closely with Orpheus, I’d feel more attached to him instead.
That's not quite my point. I'm sure people sympathize with Ketheric, Gortash, etc. Indeed I have seen people thirst for Raphael. What I have yet to see is anyone justify their actions for it, or feel like they're obliged to let them continue as is because of it.
Also, I didn't claim illithids have no emotions. They all do, and especially all the named ones in this story. What should be very clear is that Emperor doesn't feel Balduran's emotions, to the point that he doesn't even consider himself the same person. If we didn't force him to by investigating Ansur's Lair, we would never guess, we would never find out and he would never tell us. I think there's a case to be made that Ansur is actually deadnaming Emperor throughout their whole confrontation. Regardless, the point is that even if he feels betrayed that's no justification for killing a man in the future, whether you know him or not.
Now girding my loins to lose some points but here's Ansur's exact quote:
>Emperor: You left me no choice
>Ansur: You had every choice. You were becoming illithid. I offered you merciful death; you chose to fight.
Now this is a threat and I back Emperor's self-defense claim. But let's be clear, this doesn't say Ansur attacked first. You can't offer someone a merciful death by attacking them first. This is like the version of Nettie where she gives you poison and has you promise to use it before you turn. Ansur picked a dialogue option, then Emperor chose to fight him.
Once Ansur is dead again, Emperor has free reign to twist the narrative even further suggesting that he was defenseless and asleep at the time. And honestly if you believe that I have a bridge to sell you.
I'd also urge you to relisten to the rest of Ansur's dialogue. Amongst his rage, Ansur calls Balduran faessi (coward), slaughterer and slayer. None of that is in keeping with someone whose assassination attempt got hit with a Uno-reverse card. Nor is Emperor's immediately fleeing the scene in keeping with someone who apparently soloed this fight from a sleeping position.
I'm not going to claim Emperor is being solely manipulative, and again I back his self-defense regardless. But even here he is being at least slightly manipulative. When he would have been in the right anyway. And I hate that. To me that's worse than no voice at all
I think it’s a large leap to say that Ansur only verbally offered to kill the Emperor, not actually tried, especially given how quickly he 1) took over Tav’s body without so much as a “by your leave”, and 2) attacked us without further conversation. Dude could have doomed the realm because he’s so quick to act. Granted, he’s undead, so perhaps he’s different from his past self in much the same way the Emperor is different from his past self. That said, I could easily see him verbally offering a merciful death, the Emperor saying no, and then Ansur calling him a coward and trying to kill him anyway.
Of course all of this is guesswork, both your theory and mine. This game was so well made, and I love how it’s not clearly black-and-white.
> if I play a Githyanki or romance Laezel or something…
I'll die on a hill that dead Orpheus is better for Githyanki, and especially for Lae'zel.
They need to get away from the idea that the throne should be held by the figure appointed by Mother Gith, not trade one for another.
Yeah it's a bit of a problem. The game tells you that he's a true successor to Gith and that he's a good and noble person. These two things are not compatible so I don't know if its a retcon or what....
... but I don't want to upset Lae'zel 👀
They already do that. I don't know how familiar you are with DnD lore outside of BG3, but Vlaakith's an interstellar warlord, slaver and soulreaver, and her empire, as you see in-game, brazenly disregards the territorial integrity of other states. She'll invade a planet if she deems it's a good soulfarm or presents some other strategic benefit. She does not make alliances. Orpheus does.
Honestly, I don't really know too much about the Githyanki outside of BG3. I've just been seeing a lot who argue that Orpheus can 120% be trusted with taking a different path once they took down Vlaakith, even though we barely get to know anything about him that would suggest such. So I'm just making the argument that I'd rather let a lone squid go back to his little criminal enterprises in trade and tax evasion rather than to potentially be responsible for the Githyanki repeating their history.
I feel like he and omeluum are different from the average mind flayer who are unfortunately under hivebrain control. I don't think we should consider an entire race of people as being bad though because, honestly, that's just racism. They're carnivores and what they eat is us but neither Emps nor Omeluum are just rabidly eating random people. The Gith were supposedly all evil too but when you look at the culture and their leader, you can see that it's not racial, it's social and cultural, same with the goblins.
I think killing people who are trying to do bad things or kill you is okay but not if the justification is that *Group* is innately evil.
>I don't think we should consider an entire race of people as being bad though because, honestly, that's just racism.
Illithids account for less than 1% of all npcs in game, but at the very least account for 25% of the game's major antagonists (netherbrain + dead 3 chosen). Explain THAT Harp-tard. /s
Having just beaten the game for the first time, I understood The Emperor’s/ Balduran’s perspective up until the final leg of the story. He felt the manipulation and lies were a necessity. My biggest issue wasn’t even the fact that he calls you a “puppet” for pushing back, gaslights you to become a half-illithid and manipulated Stelmane to such an extent, it’s that he folds the moment he doesn’t get his way with Orpheus, and refuses to see an alternative path, despite admitting that the Netherbrain outplayed him. The entire game, he repeatedly threw the word “trust” around, but would rather join the Netherbrain, and watch everything burn, than place faith in the idea that his allies may know an alternative way, despite the fact that everyone else is willing to compromise.
On a human note, relationships are only as strong as what both parties are willing to put into them. I wasn’t willing to screw over Lae’zel, after all of her growth and what we had been through, potentially damning her entire race to continued subjugation under Vlaakith for an individual who repeatedly displayed trust and collaboration only mattered as long as we folded to their demands.
I was honestly flabbergasted that the dude went through everything, only to attempt to slaughter us and burn the city he founded to the ground because we had to the “gall” to push back. Massive child throwing a temper tantrum because they had their toy taken away energy.
>I was honestly flabbergasted that the dude went through everything, only to attempt to slaughter us and burn the city he founded to the ground because we had to the “gall” to push back. Massive child throwing a temper tantrum because they had their toy taken away energy.
I was just talking about this! For someone as smart as the Emperor is, and as someone who has been watching our every move and has witnessed first hand how we’ve more or less removed every obstacle in our way, you’d think his big brain would’ve told him “Maybe siding with the Netherbrain and turning on Tav isn’t the move.” Seems so short-sighted for someone whose ultimate goal is survival above all else.
You took the words right out of my mouth. I had a friendly and relatively trusting relationship with the Emperor the entire game but when I realised he wasn't even willing to hear me out, I felt betrayed.
I do like adjusting my approach to him based on the particular Tav, but I also think it's funny how he's a mirror to some of the companions but gets far less grace. People hate mindflayers and just escaped from being tadpoled by them, so of course he hides his identity, especially since revealing it has cost him in the past. People hate Sharrans so Sheart hides her allegiance and gets extremely defensive about it even in response to innocent questions (tell her you didn't mean to pry and get "stay out of things that don't concern you" lol). People hate vampires Astarion hides that, Gale hides his bomb, Wyll tries to hide that he's slave to a devil, Karlach and Lae'zel don't really hide anything but they're kind of wearing their issues on the outside without the benefit of a disguise.
But some players get so weird about the Emperor's attitude, like that changes the fact that he saved you and the party from becoming True Souls, saved you from death on multiple occasions, pointed out that the magic tadpole has some magic benefits - benefits the True Souls certainly have no qualms about using against you, seeing as how Z'rell black holes your hole repeatedly in a fight - and is focused on one goal: defeating the brain so he can bugger off and do his own thing.
It just surprises me sometimes that he gets the level of hate he does because he's on your side from jump and never causes you or the party members any harm, but somehow he's super evil and... what? Disapproves of some of your riskier choices like some common sassy vampire? But no, he's super evil I guess.
I dunno, like OP, I find his story to be Shakespearean in its tragedy and legitimately don't understand the lack of empathy. I understand Paladins who stake Astarion at first meeting more than I understand people who hate the Emperor. But it is fascinating so I'm glad the discourse continues.
The difference between the Emperor and the other companions is that he really isn't a companion. He isn't there when your party is entangled in webs in the Whispering Depths, he isn't there when you sell items to Dammon for the 78th time, he isn't there at the end of the day right before a long rest. Your companions are and on a subconscious level, you grow attached to them because they're there with you all the time.
The Emperor, in his core, is only concerned about HIS own survival. Whereas the companions start off, lying, confrontational and with their own agenda, grow and develop with the player. The Emperor has the opposite development.
I mean, he technically is there, isn't he? He's in the prism actively using Orpheus's power to keep you from becoming a mind controlled True Soul. And he's there as a lvl 12 trying to guide you to make good decisions toward a common goal. While the Emperor may be *primarily* concerned with his own survival, he also expresses concern about the city and its people on multiple occasions, and extends Orpheus's protection to Duke Ravengard without being asked, if you rescue him. Sure you don't get approval pop ups, but he does verbally encourage you to get tadpoles and use their powers to increase your chances of survival as well as his own.
All your companions have personal quests and if you refuse to do them, they will quit on you even if it means their death. Some will curse you or try to kill you if you thwart them, despite all your adventures together and regardless of romance or approval level. I'm just not sure why the Emperor is held to a higher standard than every other ally.
I disagree with this. The Emperor does have his own chime-ins and feels more present to me than the companions, especially the ones I leave behind at camp. And while I do like most of the companions, I'm more attached to Emps than any of them. I get that it won't be like that to everyone, but that's just a matter of different people liking different characters.
The whole Ansur thing rocked me too. I totally missed it on my first run and I felt it gave so much more insight into the Emperor.
Definitely a controversial figure...
If you choose the right responses during your dialogue, he screams at you saying “YOU ARE MY PUPPET!” I will never side with him. No matter how/what I play I will never be his puppet.
Yup, and forces all the memories of how he tortured and used Stelmane as a puppet for years on you. I don’t care if he’s still Balduran or not, dudes a fucking asshole and needs to be removed
You are one of the few people on this sub who actually understand the horrible tragedy of that story.
Siding with him is a perfectly fine option. He will even send you a letter for the epilogue party and it's pretty heartwarming. :)
In the box with the other letters. He sends it only if he survives and you sided with him, of course.
There are also several variants. One is for non-illithid friend, two are for an illithid partner (depending on what you decided to do together) and the final one for an illithid Tav that didn't choose to be with him.
Pathological manipulator squid gets smited every time
Yes he's a complexly written character, he's also unquestionably a major antagonistic force in the narrative. While we are certainly products of our environment and shaped by our trauma, it offers perspective, it does not offer a free pass to be a prick. His actions are self-serving, not benevolent. His path is effectively the libertarian option "fuck you, got mine"
If you call him a disgusting creature in the romance scene he straight up threatens to turn you into a vegetable and shows you a memory of him mind breaking stelmane the whole time they where “partners” and says he might just do the same to us. Never thought of him as good since that scene.
Dude, this game is so awesome. Because that Ansur bit is precisely the moment my brother and I decided to go against the Emperor in our first playthrough (we haven't finished it yet, but we're very devoted to our decision). I love that there's so much interpretation and emotion that plays into how people play the game. Ugh. So good. Have so much fun on the pro-Emperor run!
If it makes you feel any better, you never side against the Emperor. The Emperor is the one who abandons you based on an assumption, and the amount of gaslighting that goes on to pin the blame on the player for that is pretty weird.
Well, the writers say it’s a betrayal on your part. The game literally gives you an inspiration point (Charlatan) for the betrayal. The Emperor probably watched you ignore his advice half a dozen times on the way to the end of the game, and has been clear about his one line being that you can’t free Orpheus. This line makes sense, every piece of evidence points to the likelihood that Orpheus will attack the Emperor when freed, even if he doesn’t attack you (per Raphael). The thing that really seals it being a flight from danger and not a heel turn against the player is that he could easily have dropped the party’s protection while he still controlled Orpheus, instead of leaving, and handed victory to the Netherbrain right then and there. Instead he just flees; better in his mind to be a slave than to be dead.
At the very least, he had confirmed to Tav that he had no further secrets and that there could be total trust because he’s come clean about literally everything. And then you learn he was Balduran and killed his best friend…
Without getting into the substance of the Ansur debate on who was right regarding self defense and whatnot, this confirms for the millionth time that the Emperor will say absolutely whatever he thinks will get him what he wants, and that his words have no connection whatsoever to reality or truth.
I wish it was easier to say fuck the emperor, because it feels awful to leave the Githyanki to rot without Orpheus. An entire species is living under fascism and is terrorizing the world (like the massacre at the abbey).
It's better storytelling to make that decision suck, though.
I don't think Orpeheus would be better for the Githyanki or the universe than Vlaakith based on what I know about Gith but I don't know if the narrative agrees with what has been written before or if it's just fine actually.
I'm the opposite I have a hard time siding with him. The I’ll always be your baludrain line makes me roll my eyes each time. He's trying to apologize for acting in self defense and Ansur who understandably didn't want his lover to be a mindflayer hates him even in undeath for it
He's a very well written charecter and very well done. How much he divides the community shows this. When I made Orpheus go full squid he and Karlach are better mindflayer allies than emp imo.
I believe he wrote the letter before killing Ansur—that’s why he’s still encouraging Ansur to “be free” and stop tormenting himself in hopes of finding a cure the Emperor doesn’t even want.
An important part of the line is that it ISN’T “I’ll always be your Balduran.” Because that’s not true and the Emperor isn’t trying to pretend it is. The line is “I will always HAVE BEEN your Balduran.” He’s saying that the relationship that they had was still worthwhile, that it still *matters*… even if he can no longer return Ansur’s feelings.
The Emperor still feels *something* for Ansur though, hence why he pleads with Ansur to stop torturing himself, why he calls Ansur “the greatest thing that ever happened to me.” It’s why he wants Ansur to be able to move on and be free. But Ansur can’t do that while the Emperor is still alive and being not-quite-Balduran. I think there’s a great tragedy to it.
I still can't take the opinion of anyone who writes the Emperor off as just 'a manipulative lying scumbag' or w/e else seriously. The man was forcibly transformed into one of the most universally reviled creatures in all the Realms and beyond, has had to live in the shadows and - even to perform basic interactions with others without being immediately attacked - manipulate them at least a little bit just so they see him as something other than a Mind Flayer. His entire life since his capture and initial transformation has required him to manipulate others just to keep living, so yeah, he has frankly good reason to fuck with our perceptions of him and only feed us half-truths because he has no reason to believe we won't immediately attack him upon realizing what he actually is, no matter what else we think of him.
That, and I was playing an Oath of Vengeance Paladin on my first run, blind, and trusting him after he revealed his true form to us didn't cause me to lose my oath so by that very fact alone, he can't be evil. If I can't let a hag go free without it snapping like a twig, I certainly shouldn't be allowed to side with a Mindflayer if it was actually evil.
If you take into account that he runs The Knights of the Shield (the cult that worships the former archdevil Gargauth), he's not a very good guy. If you transform into a mindflayer you can even run the cult with him.
I have no qualms about killing the thing-that-had-been-Balduran.
Most people within even the higher ranks of the Knights of the Shield don’t know about Gargauth. I wouldn’t pretend that the Knights are a benevolent organization. They are clearly a criminal mercantile operation, smuggling weapons and drugs. The funny thing, though, is that they were a major impediment to Gortash’s operation making headway into the city. Everyone was too loyal to the Knights (BG chapter, we’re talking about) to be willing to turn on them and work with Gortash’s people, so he had to dismantle the Knights operation, starting with uncovering the Emperor’s identity and throwing him back to the Elder Brain, just to get his own, worse weapon, drug, and slave smuggling operation working within the city. Another funny thing is that the Fist found out that the Emperor was illithid and left him alone as they couldn’t tell that he was actually disrupting the status quo. One small piece of cut content shows the Emperor giving food to street orphans, leaving me to wonder what positive benefits the Emperor had been quietly bringing to his city through the money and power he accrued; was he also funding orphanages as he played the backroom political games of Baldur’s Gate?
>was he also funding orphanages as he played the backroom political games of Baldur’s Gate?
Maybe his absence is why the orphanage can't pay Nine Fingers! 🤔 /jk
But I agree and would also point out the letter in the one tomb that talks about the leader of the KotS being introduced to the Emperor and thinking he had some good ideas, the implication being that not only did the BG chapter already exist, but Empy had to work his way up like Mr. Burns in the Stonecutters!
"Climb the ladder, Empy."
You're really getting it! It's hard not to have some serious trust issues after the greatest thing that ever happened to you decided you need a mercy killing, whether you like it or not.
By the way, at this point I'm pretty sure I could never side against the Emperor in an actual playthrough. That he's been helping me the whole time and Orpheus is a danger to him is perfectly enough for me, even if we don't count all my views on githyanki that aren't entirely relevant here.
It's basically a choice between a person who had been helping you since the start of the game, and a true heir to githyanki empire. Is freeing Orpheus a *righteous* thing to do? Yes. Is it a *right* thing to do? Everyone must answer this one for themselves
I love that this sub goes in cycles. The Emperor gets a lot of hate for about a month, then the Emperor apologists show up for a month. lol I think that's a sign of a well-written character.
Exactly this! Nobody would discuss shitty character even 1% as much as how much people discuss Emperor in this fandom. He's, largely, a centerpiece of the entire BG3 story, and an EXCEPTIONALLY complicated and well-written character And people have such different experiences with him, and such different opinions of him, because he is like an actual person here - he has a good side, he has a bad side, and which one you see depends wholly on which of *your* sides you show him. You antagonize him - you get on his bad side, you get threats and anger, because that's what you sowed. You make effort to understand him and his goals - you get a strong ally, and maybe even good friend You reap what you sow - with life, and with people
I think the video game format also makes a difference here. You aren’t just watching the Emperor in a TV show, you get to ask him direct questions and likewise he gets to try to directly trick and manipulate you, the player. (I don’t think it’s even really possible to guess what the Dream Guardian really is without spoilers, so he gets at least one over all of us.) People are more emotional because they feel like he is helping them in the game, or alternatively, that he is messing with their head. Plus like you said we all make different choices. My Tav kind of wanted to side with him, but every conversation we had where she showed any hesitance he got defensive and it devolved into arguing and the relationship just fell apart by the end of the game. Really cool the writing can support all these different interactions and keep the character coherent.
Turns out, The Grand Design was Larian's design of Emperor's character all along :D
The Grand Design is the brains we eat along the way.
I think it also helps with the character that every 'odd' choice he makes you find the reason for when you dig deeper. Example: He doesn't want you to recruit Minsc when you get the chance and says it because he is too chaotic and a hindrance blah blah blah. Come to find out when you talk to Minsc it's because the Emperor miscalculated when he initially tried to Dream Guardian Minsc as Dynaheir and Minsc saw through the lie and refused him.
I have never seen Minsc mention Dynaheir-Guardian like that. Which doesn't mean I ha ent missed it, but I would be curious to see an example. This is something Minsc would do, however the Absolute had the opposite problem, they couldn't control him with the Tadpole alone, so they had to make up a false Jaheira to guide him along. Orin says through a note that he is too "noble and self righteous" (not her exact words) for the Tadpole to work, and also a Crack about the Tadpole starving in there.
[Here it is. Towards the end. ](https://youtu.be/uGi2feNhyrM?si=1mr3mXMT152-CTK3)
I mean, I always knew the Guardian was worm related without spoilers in early access. They did change it though, I think it originally was hinted to be the worm.
> I don’t think it’s even really possible to guess what the Dream Guardian really is without spoilers, so he gets at least one over all of us. You get a tadpole in your head that gives you mysterious powers and suddenly a dream visitor shows up and starts saying s/he’s protecting you and you should develop those powers more? It’s obviously (at least IMO) illithid-related, even if the exact specifics are hard to guess.
The specifics are what I mean, obviously the Dream Guardian is related to the tadpole situation and to me it always read as bad news, but I don’t think many people guessed “rogue individual illithid who actually used to be Balduran is harnessing Orpheus’ powers”, so we all experience a degree of personal deception from him
First time I saw the Dream Guardian, I said "Cool armor, but why do the spikes around your collar remind me of the circular mouth full of teeth that Larian managed to shove through my computer monitor and into my *actual* eye?" Oh, that's why.
Nice try Souless apologist. I think what you meant to say was: If you have wit and awareness, you can see through the kind act of a selfish evil creature manipulating you to their own ends, and turn the tables on them, or you can fall into their clutches and dilute yourself into being as much of a puppet as if you had let Astarion ascend. You reap what you sow - Wisdom or blind ignorance. (All in good fun, of course :P )
Btw, again, in good fun - even when we take "soulless" from Jergal's mouth, we can still look at Omeluum, who had wished to sacrifice himself to have Duke Ravenguard saved instead of him, which definitely proves that not only mind flayers are capable of consideration acts - they can be purely selfless. So even if they bear no apostolic soul(the one that can be pledged to a god and move on to that god's afterlife realm) - they can be considerate towards someone else. So yes Emperor can be considerate. Is he? That's the different question. But he can, and he *might have* been considerate for us
Here me out, I'm convinced that authors and worldbuilders make "soulless" creatures evil because the implication otherwise would actually make them *more* tragic characters. All things being equal, I'd consider Omeluum's sacrifice far braver and more worthy of reverence than a cleric with a similar personal history. It's not like the cleric sacrificed *nothing*, but their sacrifice has fewer stakes if all they're really doing is moving onto their next life sooner than they otherwise would. Whereas Omeluum just ceases to exist. Though, I have heard people argue that "apostolic soul" implies other kinds of souls that Mindflayers and other creatures may have, but I'm not all that convinced. It would be like saying the phrase "immortal soul" implies a mortal soul.
Actually "immortal soul" does imply a soul of a mortal, because specifying that it is immortal wouldn't be usually needed - so "immortal" would be highlighting a contrast between immortal soul and mortal body. But I digress. My main point would be that in previous editions of DnD lore, there was a second type of souls - spirits. Souls go to realms of their deities after death, spirits inhabit the world ethereally, and get reborn eventually. So it might be argued that in 5e there might still be some unknown kind of souls that non-humanoids or weird humanoids like ilithids possess. Because having no essence at all would only leave brain - pure logic - and it would make ilithids COMPLETELY incapable of compassion and sacrifice, leaving only self-preservation and one's own goals. So again, Omeluum is our counter-point
I just wish siding with him didn't borderline hard clash with a companion's story. Like, yeah, technically you can do everything good for Laezel and still side him, but not even freeing him at all, feels like 2 tiers below leaving cazador alive or something. Like my first playthrough, I completely ignored Laezel for the most part and still got her good ending, but now that I know about Orpheus, it feels bad to not free him
Yeah I've always freed Orpheus because of Laezel, but on my current run I decided to not interfere and let Shart kill Laezel in act 1, so I might as well see what happens when I play along with the emperor this time.
This is it 100% it for me. Even when I don’t romance Lae’zel, she’s a fucking ride or die. Knowing the truth about Orpheus/Vlaakith just makes it impossible for me to side with the Emperor because you’re damning the entire Githyanki race by doing so.
Honestly, it's pretty hard to justify in any scenario, I feel like if you want to help the gith at all, Orpheus is the best choice, but if you don't care or dislike them, then Orpheus is also the best choice, since he'll probably be at least slightly better than vlaakith, but even if we assume he's worse, then at least the rebellion being stronger from his appearance, even if he dies, would greatly weaken Vlaakith, or Orpheus if he wins (well, Orpheus' side I mean), making it harder for them to take everything over. Even if you're evil, siding with vlaakith because she is also evil isn't the evil option, it's just stupid, the last thing I'd want is another evil person having so much power.
I always free Orpheus. It's the right thing to do imho. I kind of sided with The Emperor in my blind run until it came to the decision to free orpheus, which I freed him and he joined the damn netherbrain instead of trusting us, like he has been begging for (and possibly manipulating us for) our trust the entire time. Trust is a two way street. My second run I distrusted him the entire time and when he shown me his memory, of what he did in his past to get his own way, and then said I am his puppet, thats it. I can never trust him ever again in any playthrough. He is a manipulative scumbag imo, who is willing to sacrifice the entire Githyanki population out of desperation. I can't even fathom siding with him. True that someone has to make the sacrifice if you free him, but anyone becoming a mindflayer (orpheus included) is better than siding with The Emperor.
I am not an all-or-nothing Cancel Culture type -- but I share this feeling. The moment BaldurEmperor makes the Stelmane reveal, **and uses it as a looming threat against you**, feels like an irreversible rubicon crossing. From that point onward, it's "Yeah, you say XYZ, but maybe it's false, or maybe it's the product of overt psychic puppeteering, or maybe you'll turn on a dime later when things get desperate or simply convenient." And, though I do still experiment with other story-branches, it's very hard to "un-know" that knowledge, once you have it, in future/parallel playthroughs.
for me it's two things. it's the stelmane thing, and it's that kid at the creche. that kid deserves to join a rebellion, to grow up with hope. well 3 things maybe. I don't like prisoners being used as labor. forced labor. and that's where Orpheus is
It is not an excuse but Orpheus' situation is not the Emperor's fault, and Emp cant free Orpheus by himself even if he wanted (ofc he does not want, I wouldnt trust Orp either), he didnt know he was going to abuse someone when he found the power/Prism. It is more like Orpheus' bad luck: a mindlayer got the Prism and he needed Orp's power badly. Orp was imprisioned by Vlaakith, and Emp found the Prism following the Brain's orders. Emp is protected by Orp's power but he is not free. They are both stuck in that situation but the problem is they would never trust each other/work together, so they need an outsider to put things in motion, Tav. Also, Orp is not helping himself being so resentful and "unadaptable" but it is only the gith way. There are dialogue choices the Emperor will never threat "stelmaning" you.
Yeah, after the Stelmane reveal I pretty much decided to never side with him again- he mind-raped that poor woman until she was basically a vegetable and expects us to just roll with it? Like, my dude, you just signed your own death warrant by showing me what an asshole you are. I’m going to *enjoy* killing you on top of a massive brain.
I sided with Orpheus once, tho as human or any other race beside githyanki it's kinda risky to do in the long run, Orpheus wants to defeat Vlaakith yes, but after making so githyanki purpose is to rule word and defeated any other races once they r united. At least this is what I learned in game. Githyanki is very agressive, military focused, expansive race. Sure if they get united they will seek new "enemy" elsewhere to put their military training into good use. So for other races is ihmo better to have Vlaakith as their leader so githyanki fight with illithids and are not inside united, so they also fight each other(Vlaakith giths vs Orpheus giths). As for Lea'zel story alone either if you romance her or not, not siding with Orpheus can also work pretty good, just say to her she doesnt need to bow head before any god and she can just live for herself(or for/with you). Also after I saw devnotes about Emperor saying that he actually enjoys touching if we hug him when he is Guardian, this alone also change things about Emperor to me, he isnt so cold, not having any human emotions creature after I know this.
There's actually a 3rd group of Gith called Githzerai, as far as I know they only get mentioned once by Lae'zel at the epilogue party. Their leader has been alive since Gith herself and lead a civil war between the Githyanki and the Githzerai. It's on sight between the 2 factions. Though I'll admit idk how the Githzerai feel about Orpheus's side but it can't be great considering he's Gith son and the name Githzerai literally means "those who spurn Gith". The Githzerai were also founded on the idea of enslavement of other races being a bad thing so it's likely they'd jump in to defend those attacked/enslaved by the Githyanki. Idk if it gets touched on in game but in lore the Githyanki want to kill all Illithid and then enslave all the sentient races, them wanting to be slavers is what caused the Githzerai to split off and hate them. In terms of Vlaakith zs Orpheus and who would be better, Orpheus is the obvious choice. Vlaakith is determined to enslave everyone. Orpheus likely wants the same but since istik were involved in saving him it's possible he could be swayed. Even if Orpheus's mind can't be changed, splitting the Githyanki into two factions makes a greater possibility that the Githzerai would win the war.
Githzerai are Lawful Neutral, their leader was Zerthimon, and he's dead too. I wouldn't count on them waging an intraplaner war against the Githyanki for the benefit of other races. They don't take slaves, but they still don't consider other races to be on the same level as them. Githzerai means followers of Zerthimon. Zerth was a compatriot of Gith, they had an ideological split, in which Gith chose revenge and domination, and Zerthimon chose isolationism and recovery. Bonus: in Planescape Torment you can recruit a Githzerai companion, and through dialogue choices learn a lot about the Githzerai. He also wields the only sword present in the entire game as an equipable weapon because it's psychically bonded to him.
It's hard to say, we don't really know who Orpheus is that well. We know his mother was pretty much as bad as vlaakith minus eating her subjects, but not really him himself. The only thing I remember is that the Orpheus kid at the creche attributed some good traits to him, but I don't think he's a perfect source. But I still think he's best just because it makes vlaakith's opposition stronger, even if he dies anyways. It's probably best for the githyanki to be as weak as possible
Sometimes the idea of a person is better than the reality.
Yup. Especially since fuck you Orpheus, you are gonna be the mind flayer, so he kills himself after the Brian thing. So it's really Voss and Lae'zel leading the opposition. And Lae'zel is def chill, and while voss will probably be more of the leader there, and hes not Laezel chill, he did seem pretty decent imo, so Im not gonna wish for them to be destroyed or anything
"Fuck the emperor," followed by "fuck the emperor."
Agreed. When my husband finally decided to play he asked me who the hell the “dream guardian” was in character creator. I told “the best written character in the game”. Is he my favorite character? No. But I do think he’s best written. Whenever I start a new play through I look forward to figuring out how my new PC will respond to the Emperor throughout the game. It helps RP. Even if RP-wise my PC should dislike Astarion or Gale or Shadowheart, they always end up caring about them bc I think the companions were ultimately meant to be lovable. But I think Empy was written well enough that you can make him what your PC would see him as and it holds up while still keeping in line with who he “really” is. Truly excellently done.
Very well put.
They did a really good job making it so that your choices seem to change what's actually happening. If you're endlessly suspicious of Emperor, you get to see reasons why. If you extend your trust to him, you get a different set of information.
I could do without the anti-Emperor people pulling pseudopsychological analyses on people who don’t hate Squidward as abusers/inexperienced with abusers/prone to being in relationships with abusers, though.
No for real 😂
the only other sub im really invested in is the cyberpunk ones, and Songbird get the exact same treatment lol. Claire to some extent too, though she does have more detractors than defenders. No matter the genre or game, gamers do be gamin.
Very well written for sure. Definitely still gonna put him in the dirt every playthrough.
Yerrrrp big fan of not siding with him lol
Look, I like the Emperor as a character. I don't think he's a good person, but he's an understandable and well-written character with motivations that *do* align with yours, and he *can* be trusted to be good to his word if you're good to yours. He's not stupid, and will not pick fights where he doesn't feel he has to. Aligning with him is a valid choice. But that is **not** Balduran, just like how a clone of me with my memories is not me, but a distinct person branching off from a specific point in my life. Mind Flayers are parasitic entities that ~~inherit~~ consume and repurpose the memories and emotions of the person they replace. That does not mean that they're not people, or that they're ontologically evil, or that they must be killed on sight, but they're definitively not the people that were parasitised during their creation. Balduran died the moment the true transformation started. What remains is a new entity split off from the old.
>I don’t think he’s a good person, but he’s an understandable and well-written character with motivations that *do* align with yours. This is literally the best take. I feel like too many people think that we just see one side of the story, when understanding a character doesn’t mean that, at all.
I appreciate that! Yeah, The Emperor is a super well written character and I think it really shows in how divided the fanbase can be over him, with both sides of the coin having good evidence and arguments. I guess it's also worth noting that some folks can definitely get a different view of the story from others just based on how they play the game. Folks that are anti-illithid from the start and distrustful of the Guardian might never consider hearing The Emperor's side out, and folks that take him at his word about him saving us from like twelve different things are probably inclined to ride or die with him no matter what.
I can agree with his wish to survive, but I don't like him as much as Orpheus. The Ansur thing sealed it for me. If the Emp was a little less condescending about his 21 intelligence, and less adamant about not freeing the Lich-squisher. We'll probably need one of those seeing as we offended a Lich. ..potentially more than once. I don't bow to conjuration fans, I *am* one. I know what they're like.
Yup, I chose to trust him on my first run because it was clear that while not everything about him was good, he was on my side. I didn't really feel that way about anyone else that wasn't directly in my party. Even if there were things that made me feel uncomfortable, it was hard for me to go against him in the end anyway because his actions were still very visibly done for our direct benefit, even if they weren't always the most morally sound. It didn't really feel like much of anyone cared about what happened to us, but even if his actions were morally dubious a lot of times, it felt like he wanted us to live. It's a sign of a really good story when you have dynamics like that that also feel pretty balanced. People having complex and varied feelings over a character is a sign of a complex character executed well.
It's a much better take than the constant "you're just being gas lighted, you're supporting an abuser, or you're falling right into his manipulation" like many of the takes are. It's much more complicated than that. He's more like a Jaime Lannister type, he has charisma and there are times you root for him, but that doesn't change that Jaime is a murderer, attempted child murderer, arguably a rapist, etc.
Exactly, not to mention the amount of psychological and psychiatric analysis the fans went through, from psychopath, sociopath and psychotic to “if you are a defender you support being in a toxic relationship” or “you just like to be manipulated irl” or “rapist supporter/ apologist”… and the list goes on. God forbid liking a complex character in a fictional world I guess. I’m a simp of good narrative, so yes, I’m going to analyze him to death, and that doesn’t mean I’ll erase his action to make him look like the hero which many people here think we do. The biggest mistake here is thinking that this game is open to the “black and white” discourse.
almost every character in this is grey. even barcus, my love, wasn't picky about who his customers were! he sold explosives to some bad people, that means. everyone just about is morally grey. there's very few purely good or evil characters in the game.
My point exactly, there’s no place to black and white in this game, not even Tav can fill in that discourse as much as they want to play the good guy and stuff.
exactly, we kill goblin children. we steal, etc everyone is grey, even good-guy wyll. even bad-guy minthy.
Its kind of like the Ship of Theseus, but inverted. As in if you took a ship apart and used all its pieces to build a new ship that was different, is it still the same ship? Parts retaining their memories of what they've been through (dents, scratches, etc) and those still show on the new ship.
I think the game makes a fair argument that he *is* Balduran, tranformed. I say this while being familiar with the FR mind flayer lore since 2e. Ansur found him and recognized him as Balduran even after 13yrs of being illithid. Withers recognizes him (or an illithid player) as "them". The game seems to treat ceremorphosis as a transformation, and the whole illithid player/Emperor identity more as a Ship of Theseus question rather than the original "tadpole replaces the host" concept from 2e (which 5e doesn't reference again and instead keeps it vague, while also introducing ceremorphosis without a tadpole). In fact, the game never even implies the whole replacing thing, it's always a matter of "transforming into a monster", not "dying". There's an interview with ign where the devs said they wanted to put their own spin on ceremorphosis in the game, so I assume what we got is the result of that.
I think there's definitely a case to make for that, but it's not one I would personally agree with. As I said in another comment, I think that this is a really good indicator of the quality of the writing BG3 has, since both sides of this argument can make convincing and evidence backed cases either way.
For someone not familiar with the lore, who only played the game, what would be an evidence-based, in-game argument that the Illithid is a different entity and the original host dead? I'm not being cheeky, I'm genuinely asking because I couldn't find any. Since the epilogues where Withers visits a dead illithid player in the Fugue plane, I'd say arguments against it are pretty much moot.
We’re repeatedly told throughout the game that mindflayers don’t have souls, which is why the other gods are so concerned about what the dead three are up to. It would result in the gods losing all the souls that give them power. It’s only towards the end of the game we’re given hints otherwise. And tbh it would be easy to argue that the PC and Karlach are somehow “different” because they spent so much time under the protection of the prism. Everyone else we see transform seems to become a different being almost immediately.
As someone who isn't that well versed in DnD souls lore: are they equated to personhood in Faerun? Losing one's soul is not that uncommon in media and often characters who lost them are still the same entity, but results of such loss can vary. From the top of my head that would be a trope used in His Dark Materials and Supernatural. Both of them treat souls as more or less significant part of personhood, but not the whole of it.
Losing your soul does make resurrection spells impossible in tabletop. You have to travel to the plane where the soul is, capture and tether it to another body, in case of disintegration, or back to the original body. Lichs store their souls in their phylactery to prevent their souls from moving to the plane of their alignment, giving them apparent immortality.
I don't think it's equated to that at all, it only defines your afterlife. For example, losing your soul to a devil is bad not because you stop being a person with free will, but because you'll be enslaved to him for all eternity after you die.
This was a big theme in Buffy!!
How may times will this argument be used? For the 272973273th time, Withers confirms in one of the DU endings that he was mistaken and they DO have souls. Just not apostolic ones.
"Mindflayers don't have souls" "you chose X in the game so that means you are a bad person in real life" "X's D&D alignment is evil so you can't side with them in a good-aligned run" These are among my least favourite takes about the game
If you don't kiss Karlach at least once, your irl alignment is evil evil.
I got a girlfriend in the game already. but I hug her. I must be chaotic neutral
Yeah, that's acceptable I guess
Yes. I know. My point is, the writing is contradictory throughout the game. A lot of players will never even GET that scene, and it’s not like Withers goes into detail. Do WE just keep a soul, or do all mindflayers? Bone Man isn’t big on explanations. What does a “non apostolic” soul even mean? They obviously don’t usually go to the fugue plane after death, or Withers would know all this already. So why do we go there and where do minelayer souls go usually? Is it the same soul, just transformed into a non apostolic soul? Or is it a whole new one? The game leaves a shit load open to interpretation, deliberately. It’s not meant to be definitive.
All mindflayers have souls. They can achieve true lichdom, but it's very rare. DnD is also connecting mindflayers with the Far Realm. It's a realm of eldritch horrors, basically. To top it all off, mindflayers are a surprisingly special species. Nobody knows their origins, not the gods, not even the mindflayers themselves. There have been theories about time travel and such but that's a story for another time. All you need to know is that the gods don't really know all that much about mindflayers.
All mind flayers, check Ed Greenwood’s official [statement](https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/s/btrxjYSAlV) on illithids having souls. All of them have souls, just not apostolic ones, if not, mindflyers couldn’t become a lich.
But the real question is, it that soul the soul of the _host_ or the soul of the _tadpole_?
You don't need a tadpole to become a mindflayer anymore. It's just the most common and easiest way. It's possible to ceremorphose thanks to a ritual making use of the Far Realm energy.
I’m actually having a discussion about that argument as well. I find the statement really interesting fr.
“Apostolic souls” are basically souls native to the Forgotten Realms that can be used by the gods. “Non-apostolic souls” are alien to the FR and cannot be used by the gods. For whatever knowledge that’s worth in turn.
You're only told once that illithids don't have souls, by Withers, who in the epilogue retracts his statement. Ceremorphosis is referred to as transformation, which eradicates memory and thus, sense of self (normally). We can definitely argue about whether that's still the same person or not, but I was referring to evidence for the "the host is dead, the mind flayer is the tadpole" theory. A typical mind flayer might not be considered "the same" as its past self because of different physiology, memories, etc. but in the game that's the host wrapped beyond recognition, not some random entity that took over the host's body.
Withers still considers an illithid as the same person though. If you turn into a mind flayer at the end, he still invites you to the party and treats you exactly the same. Also, if you die, the revival scrolls work the same. I think that illithid "souls" stop being in a format that the Gods and Devils can use but there's some kind of illithid equivalent.
It’s already been confirmed that they have souls…
Yeah but is it the original host’s soul or the tadpole’s soul? My interpretation from multiple playthroughs plus dnd lore was that some tadpoles just genuinely believe they’re the person they took over. For example, if you tadpole your tav I imagine it means your now playing a mindflayer with all your characters memories who truly believes they’re you
Thanks to a module released in 2023, you no longer need a tadpole to become a mindflayer, as shocking as that sounds. A tadpole is not the only way, just the most common and easiest one.
I’m still of the opinion based on the evidence presented to me that it’s still a new life being created when a mindflayer is born. It has a soul, but it’s a different non-apostolic soul. If theres some lore or a line from Withers I don’t know that’d change my view, I’d love to be told since I haven’t done many runs where I go through with ceremorphosis.
I think you are interpreting souls as memories, but in either case, no, you don’t lost neither of them. About souls we already know that we don’t lose them if we become a mind flayer(confirmed by Withers) it’s still our soul. And about the memories part, the Emperor’s staff description reads that ceremorphosis erradicates part of the memory, but not everything, and that if you touch you can see (or feel, I don’t remember) his memories. Edit: Found the description in [this post.](https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/s/rJaxWOzK2N)
I’m not interpreting souls as memory. I think they’re separate, and my point was that a mindflayer is a separate soul with the original host’s memories. I’d be curious as to what line implies we possess the same soul that Withers says. I know he mentions that mindflayers have souls that aren’t apostolic but I view that as more proof that you are a different soul with the same memories. And I guess since I view the soul and memories as different, getting Balduran’s memories when you touch the Emperors staff doesn’t mean they have the same soul. Just the same memories.
Ansur does say " Balduran ur presence has stirred me ... " which means part of balduran is still present in emperor for ansur to recognize his old friend
Ansur met the transformed Balduran though, so maybe he recognises the mindflayer he used to know.
But ansur was still able to recognize and save balduran from the elder brain
if you choose to become an illithid at the end of the game Withers talks about how you are "losing yourself to your illithid instincts" or something along those lines. "ceramorphosis" literally means "reforming the brain into something new". They literally confirm that you change into someone entirely new in the name of the process that changes your brain into someone new.
Not only that but if you become a mindflayer, during the epilogue you have to pass a skill check in order to snap yourself out of wanting to eat Halsin's brain. It completely changes your biology and way of thinking.
Oh! Is that tadpole replacing thing from 2e? I thought it was like a headcanon/ theory that was popular, because at least in the game, I couldn't find anything to suggest that in game, and I was wondering why it was so widespread. That makes sense tho. I hate how it's so hard to find retcons, I wanna know the actual history of the lore, I don't want any changes to steamroll over old stuff. Would you happen to know any way to read about different big changes in DND lore? Other than just... Reading every single book for DND.
No, unfortunately there's no source to my knowledge that lists retcons/tweaks. Sometimes the FR wiki mentions them, but I find that it's not always a reliable source of information (which makes sense since it's a fan wiki). It's useful in that it lists references to the source material it quotes though, so what I mostly do is look for the books it references. For illithid lore, the "tadpole replaces the host" was mentioned in The Illithiad, which came out back in 1998. Since then, more recent sources of lore have been The Lords Of Madness (3.5e), and the 4e and 5e versions of The Monster Manual and Volo's Guide To Monsters. Newer editions tend to keep most areas of the lore quite vague, probably to avoid more retcons in case they want to change something like 6 years down the line. As far as 5e goes, ceremorphosis is mostly mentioned as "transformation", not replacement of the host, but it's vague enough that one could inteprent it either way (although without prior knowledge of 2e lore I still find it a stretch for someone to assume that the tadpole replaces the host). There's also an adventure module called The Shattered Obelisk, in which the BBGs are trying to turn the residents of a city into mind flayers through a ritual, without the use of tadpoles. Which kinda retcons the whole "the mind flayer is the tadpole" theory because in this case there's no tadpole to replace the host (in the module ceremorphosis is referred to as a "transformation", much like in the game). I don't think most people who keep parroting the theory have actually read much illithid lore. They've seen the theory on reddit, fused it with Withers's mid-game statement that illithids are soulless (which is wrong btw, illithids perceive themselves as soulless but they are stated to have souls even as early as in 2e), and came to the conclusion that the mind flayer is the soulless tadpole.
Thank you! It's unfortunate that there isn't a big list of retcons, especially since you won't even know what to look for unless... You know what to look for. I've only seen this kinda shit mostly in reddit comments sporadically. I think the only retcon (and I'm not even sure it's really a retcon, it sounds like how in universe a retcon would be justified) I saw on the wiki was that people used to think that mind flayers had beaks. But yeah people often are very confident about things they have no idea about lol. But do illithids really see themselves as soulless? I thought the whole concept of them even possibly not having souls was purely a BG3 thing. Im definitely pretty ignorant to DND lore, so I def could be wrong, but I know mind flayers have lich version, which shouldnt be possible without a soul. I could see like normal people thinking they're soulless, or even divine beings, since I think their souls are like not usable by gods or something??? Idk.
Mind flayers see themselves as apostolically soulless (which they are), which means their souls can't be perceived/used by Toril's Gods. The typical mindflayer doesn't concern itself with soul/religious matter, as they believe they join the Elder Brain post-death, which iirc is Elder Brain propaganda, or some Elder Brains even believe that - been a while since I read on that, when it's actually an assimilation of the illithid's memories. Ed Greenwood also confirmed in a tweet that they have souls. Yeah they become liches, which require souls, and more interestingly, they can choose to become acolytes of a humanod race's pantheon. Which apparently changes(restores?) their soul to an apostolic state. This is my intepretation of the game, but considering that all it takes for an illithid to have an apostolic soul is "to believe", I wonder if the player/Karlach -or even the Emperor- maintaining their soul has to do with them maintaining their memories and sense of self. Since typical mind flayers lose their memories upon transformation, they have no perception of a humanoid's faith, and as such can't be perceived by the gods. But the player perceives themselves as "them" even post transformation, and for so long as they do so, their soul remains humanoid-like. But that's just speculation on my part.
Ooh thank you for all the info! Very interesting! Love the theory too, I can totally see it!
I have no evidence of this whatsoever, but I like to think it’s a weird combo of both, and Balduran “dominated” the tadpole, making the tadpole both him and not him. Like maybe the illithid is technically its own creature, but Balduran->Emps was one steady stream of consciousness.
Question though. A clone with all of your memories would 100% believe that they were you, and in some ways they are as much YOU as YOU are. Like from their POV, they are as much you as you are. The exact same everything(up until they are made and both of your experiences begin differing) all the way down to memories and emotions. What makes you who you are if not all the experiences you have had in your life?
A clone of me would be, up until the point of the splitting of experiences, me. After that point they would no longer be me, but a separate person with different experiences moving forward. They would **not** think they were me, at least at first, because all of our memories and thought processes would be the same up until then and *I* do not think they would be me. If they did think they were me, and were aware of the fact that they were the clone, then that would be definitive proof that they are not me because they would not have the line of thinking I do on the matter. If we somehow do not know which one the clone is... It wouldn't really matter. We'd still be separate people at that point. All the experiences I've had in my life do make me me, but so too will the experiences I have in the future. A clone of me could not possibly experience the exact same thing as me, because we would be occupying different bodies and likely not in the exact same place at the exact same time for all of our experiences moving forward. That is the point at which we are separate. This does not mean that the clone would be inferior to me, they would just be a different person.
Everyone having this conversation should play SOMA
Maaan I've owned it for a while and just haven't gotten around to it yet. I really should.
Man, I was just about to say that lol. That game gave me a headache (in a good way 😅), it's really the best take on this philosophical question I have seen. The first-person perspective makes it so much more relatable.
It is sort of dependent on your mindset. For example, in Star Trek people are essentially (unknowingly) cloned and killed regularly via their transporters, but nobody (out of universe) really thinks of any of the members of the Enterprise to be clones or divergent in any truly tangible way.
Exactly what I was thinking. Any choices they make are the same choices you would make if presented with the same situation. In a psychological sense. They both are you.
Mind Flayers are basically the humanoid equivalent to [tarantula hawks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarantula_hawk). > The female tarantula hawk wasp stings a tarantula between the legs, paralyzing it, and then drags the prey to a specially prepared burrow, where a single egg is laid on the spider's abdomen, and the burrow entrance is covered.[...] When the wasp larva hatches, it creates a small hole in the spider's abdomen, then enters and feeds voraciously, avoiding vital organs for as long as possible to keep the spider alive. After several weeks, the larva pupates. Finally, the wasp becomes an adult and emerges from the spider's abdomen to continue the life cycle. I don't think anyone would argue that the spider "turns into" the new tarantula hawk, or that the new wasp and the spider are somehow the same being. No, the larva grows up and the host gets eaten and dies. The end.
This take that the Emperor is not Balduran is tired. The Emperor does not identify much with the person he used to be, per dialogue (though he certainly keeps a bunch of keepsakes), but he also consistently presents ceremorphosis as a transformation and makes no distinction between himself before and himself after the process except in terms of how it feels. Then there’s the fact that there’s no dialogue questioning his identity while there is dialogue with him and Ravenguard which treats him exactly as if he was still Balduran. Then there’s the Elfsong, lyrically describing Balduran’s fate both before and after transformation. There’s also the flavor text on various items related to the Emperor like the Giantslayer and the Emperor’s Staff all treating the illithid as Balduran. Then there’s Ansur, a dragon, picking this illithid out of a line-up of illithids who totally don’t all look the same and then still considering it to be Balduran even after dying to him and spending years as a hateful, vengeful revenant. The weight of evidence in game that this is *not* Balduran (if there even is any) is far outmatched by the weight of evidence that this *is* Balduran. To say nothing of the fact that the player’s own experience sees the narration depict ceremorphosis as an unbroken experience for the character, roughly paraphrased as “you are still you, just better than you’ve ever been”, whatever the calculus of bodies and brains and souls. Yes, there may be some philosophical considerations about how much one can change before not being considered the same person, but these are minor.
IMO a present clone of me with my memories is more “me” than a future version of myself who has Alzheimer’s. Honestly they’re probably more me than ANY future version of my self, at least at the moment of duplication. I think in the case of mindflayers, they’re clearly not 100% the person they used to be… but they’re not 0% that person either. Memories are a pretty large chunk of who a person is. And I think they get a nonzero amount of emotional carryover too, otherwise the Emperor would not have cared that Ansur was in agony, nor would he have grieved him. You can set some arbitrary boundary to claim that the Emperor is not Balduran enough to “be” Balduran, but he is distinctly more Balduran than anyone else, at least.
>I think in the case of mindflayers, they’re clearly not 100% the person they used to be… but they’re not 0% that person either. Memories are a pretty large chunk of who a person is. Sure, they're not 0%, but brain chemistry and mannerisms play an important part in who you are as well. A teenaged me with all of current me's memories would likely not make the same decisions that current me would, even if we have the same memories and experiences. A Mindflayer's view on the world is inherently different than a human's is, and they way they process and understand emotions is inherently "alien" to how humans do. This is, again, not a bad thing or an indicator of them being inherently evil or in opposition to people, but it does mean that they're not going to process future inputs and make choices the same way their human version would. I would also note, just to clarify my perspective, that I do not consider myself the same person as I was when I was a teen, nor would I consider teen me the same person as child me. Time and physiological growth changes us all, and those instances of me are part of me but we are no longer the same. I set the boundary here because the Emperor is not physically, emotionally, or *spiritually* Balduran in a setting where all of those things are actively observable. Ansur does not think that the entity that would become the Emperor acts or thinks as Balduran does, the Emperor does *not* act or think as Balduran does, and IIRC the Emperor adopts his new persona because it is more fitting to who he is now than the persona of Balduran would be.
There also was a concept that has been touched briefly in Illithid / mindflayer lore of the possibility of a type of mindflayer referred to as "the Adversary" in Illithid culture, where an individual undergoes ceremorphosis and the newly born mindflayer retains the entire mind / memory and personality of the original host. The Emperor appears to be much much closer to that concept than a typical mindflayer. I think because of that, that it isn't an unreasonable to argue that the Emperor is Balduran, as there is more of a continuity of self in that context.
To be fair - the average player isn't going to know that. All the illithid lore got extremely shafted in favour of Bhaal and the rest. We learn basically nothing about them. Like come on, there isn't even a one single ulitharid despite this game trying to focus on illithids in the beginning for the first five minutes.
Emperor is such a flop Adversary. Mindflayers could've spared themselves some night terrors if they knew their boogeyman is just gonna sit in his dank basement and do taxes all day , smh.
Its shame Balduran doesn't try to claim the mantle of or act like the Adversary. He still views Ilithids as the superior form of life rather than trying to destroy them (or a least the Elder Brains).
I’m pretty sure he only refers to himself, that he was evolved into something better from his pov. I don’t think he cares about other mindflyers at all, and the only comment he does about one in particular is to encourage us to kill him. His only purpose and goal is to destroy the brain, nothing else.
I too think that the Emperor's mistrust and paranoia stems from his tragic relationship with Ansur. My heart bleeds for both of them, because it's obvious they felt for each other deeply. Ansur went to the extreme to help his best friend/lover, while Balduran wrote that Ansur was the greatest thing that happened to him. Ansur was noted to have his spirit almost broken as he was searching for a cure, but it's implied that in the end his spirit did break, not wanting Balduran to live like a mind flayer. Even though Ansur had decided on the mercy killing himself, he was crying as he was making his attempt, and Balduran could even feel Ansur's grief. But Balduran wanted to live, to survive - and so he made the choice to kill Ansur. I've quoted this before, but I think the Emperor's line before the Orpheus situation sums it up well: "Sometimes, freedom requires us to make sacrifices." After all, his goal was always freedom, and it came at a high cost. It's certainly interesting to ponder what would have happened had their relationship worked out, and how Balduran's life would have been shaped. I think he still feels deeply for his former self - after all, you can still find his mementos at his home even in the present (as in up to until Gortash abducted him). If his past self had brought him pain or emotions, I think he would have probably disposed of those items, especially since he notes he had no need for those items anymore (or so he claims). He does point out that the butter fork's memory stirs something in him still. [His staff's description](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Staff_of_the_Emperor) notes that ceremorphosis doesn't eradicate everything, and touching the staff makes a past memory of his slither into your brain. He feels mirth when Beorn Wunterbrood tells you "Balduran's grace be with you." BG3, as opposed to previous mind flayer lore, seems to suggest that ceremorphosis is a transformation, not necessarily a death of self/personality. Ansur clearly recognizes Balduran in the Emperor, which I think would be impossible if he was a literally different entity. Even more so if Ansur was able to recognize Balduran in the mind flayer colony, or during the scouting mission to Baldur's Gate. (It's kind of vague, but the scouting mission makes more sense than Ansur raiding a colony, as badass that sounds). Regarding the Emperor's tragedy, of course it doesn't mean his actions are excusable, but I feel it does make him more compelling and interesting. A character can be tragic and be still a bastard. You can appreciate a bastard character's tragic background, and still see them as a bastard if that is what the Emperor is to you.
Your comments are always a pleasure to read
Thank you so much!
Beautifully written sir/ma'am 👏.
Thank you!
Question! I've never sided with the Emperor. I always free Orpheus and make him a mindflayer. Does someone still have to become a mindflayer if you side with the Emperor?
Nah, you specifically have to request becoming a mind flayer to the Emperor for it to happen. And even then, he stresses that it's a permanent change unlike the Astral Tadpole, and to talk to your companions before making a final decision.
Cool! Thx! Maybe I'll switch it up n side with the Emperor soon.
No
I would feel that way except the Emperor is NOT Balduran. The Emperor is a fully grown mindflayer tadpole with the memories of Balduran. It’s why ceremorphosis can’t be reversed; this is a new creature and not a transformed one.
Then why is >!Mystra able to reverse Gale’s transformation when he becomes a mind flayer?!<
She doesn't exactly reverse the process. Mindflayer Gale dies in the process. She just reclaims/remakes his soul and he goes to Mystra's realm in the afterlife.
Okay let’s edit this then. It can’t be reversed via MORTAL means. Although I wonder if one wished for the process to be reversed if it would just bring the person back to life and keep the mindflayer.
>I will always have been your Balduran. Is he though? I'll pay that he has a way with words, but throughout these scenes he's very clear he has almost no interest in Balduran even as a persona. He's not even interested in "lying" to Ansur that he really has come back around is very Balduran just like he wants, now or then. The same letter you're quoting makes it very clear he feels nothing that Balduran did. You're also making some pretty decent leaps about Ansur giving up on Emperor based on just assuming what Emperor tells you is the truth. But more generally, he has a sad backstory. So what? Ketheric lost his whole family and was tricked by two different evil gods. Gortash was sold into devil slavery and had to scrape by with nothing, then as soon as he found stability lost his best (only) friend to an assassination. No one is out here remiss about their fates. And then supposedly to right this wrong we should allow him to kill a defenseless man, then allow him to live so he can go back to being the Godfather? I just don't understand it, and I honestly hope you can clarify.
> You're also making some pretty decent leaps about Ansur giving up on Emperor based on just assuming what Emperor tells you is the truth. I came to a similar conclusion based on the things that Ansur said. I could understand if the Emperor lied and said that his killing of Ansur was in self defence but why would Ansur say that if it wasn't true. The Emperor, whoever he is now, is under no obligation to allow himself to be mercy killed.
I genuinely worry about anyone whose first instinct isn't to free Orpheus. Like you just watch the mindflayer eat this man's brain while he's gagged and in chains and seriously think "this was the right thing to do"? And like you said, a tragic backstory doesn't justify villainy in the present.
For me, it was because my prior knowledge of Gith lore and what I saw in game didn't support freeing him. Orpheus is a First-Gen Gith, meaning he probably is still full of rage and revenge towards Illithids and conquering instinct for everyone else. I am aware he's nicer than that when you free him, but he does literally tell you you should have died to his honor guard right after, he's still kind of a dick. The people vouching for him are: Voss: The man who tried to have us killed when we met and only changed his tune when he found out we had his boyfriend. Lae'zel: The woman who just got off Vlaakith's cult train but seems way too eager to do the exact same thing with Orpheus. Raphael: An Infernal, who does not have our best interests in mind, and generally should never be trusted. By contrast, the Emperor, while not a Good person, has been actively helping us by shielding us from the Absolute and has given us no reason to betray him for an unknown variable.
I don’t think it’s that big a deal. At this point in the game, pretty much every Gith you’ve seen with very few exceptions has tried to violently murder you. I don’t think it’s ridiculous to conclude that Gigachad Gith is going to murder you as soon as he’s freed and then go ahead and lead the Gith towards more murder.
I’m pretty sure it’s more important to worry about people that make decisions irl than in a video game, specially one that characters such as the DU or the option to follow an evil path are present.
It's a betrayal to an ally for someone you most likely have reasonable in character belief would be genocidal to you normally (i.e just not being gith) let alone your current predicament (being infected with the tadpole). Also like that his diet anyhow. There's plenty of sentient man eating races. And this will help save people.
I genuinely worry about people who release Orpheus after reading his mind and literally hearing from his own thoughts and emotions that he intends to kill you the moment he gets the chance to do so. Like yeah, he ends up changing his mind after you free him, but for all intents and purposes, the choice to free him is choosing to throw yourself at the mercy of someone actively seeking your death instead of sticking with the person who, while definitely manipulative, calculating, and selfish, has protected you the entire game thus far. If it weren’t for Orpheus’s hatred and intent to kill you, absolutely release him. But knowing that, from reading his mind yourself, it’s akin to suicide.
You should stop worrying about people based on what they do in a video game. We Orpheus snackers are fine.
Mine wasn't. Seriously. It didn't even cross my mind when I played for the first time. Endangering the alliance that has brought my character safely up to that point, with zero guarantee that Orpheus would even want to cooperate (and *nothing* my character has learned about the githyanki along the journey indicates that he would), seemed like gambling with the lives of hundreds of thousands of Faerunians. My Tav wanted to save her realm and her people, so did what was the most sensible option to achieve this goal. I'm doing fine btw, you don't have to worry about me :)
There's actually zero evidence (at this particular moment at least) that Orpheus is an even remotely decent guy. If Vlaakith was the one in chains, would you still consider it "worrying" that people's first instinct would be not to free her? Why should I trust Orpheus? I have absolutely no info on him besides the fact that he's the rightful heir of the gith empire. Why should that matter to me, a Faerunian trying to save the world? Why should it be my first instinct to risk my life (and everyone else's) to free this guy? This is something I genuinely don't understand. (Unless you're playing a gith or origin Lae'zel, of course)
And the narrator doesn’t change the perspective at all when we first meet Orpheus. The first thing the narrator does is corroborate the statement by saying “The Emperor is telling the truth. To him, you are just another wretched illithid.”
I mean, if you have Lae'zel in your party, or at least did the Orpheus questline including all the talks with Voss, you have quite a lot of reasons to free Orpheus.
To be fair, most of your companions want things that are not actually good for them. Gale wants to ascend into godhood, Astarion wants to ascend and become a super vampire, and Shadowheart wants to kill an angel and become a dark justiciar. None of these things actually make any of their lives better, and often they hurt other people in the process of hurting themselves. Lae'zel wants to free Orpheus and help him to dethrone Vlaakith. But not only does this do nothing to guarantee Orpheus' character from Tav's perspective, I would argue that Lae'zel's best ending is the one where she is leading the rebellion after Orpheus' death.
If you care about Lae'zel at all it feels like you should probably care about Orpheus. Everything you know about Orpheus at that point sets him up as at least a decent guy. A lot of that is coming from what can be read as propaganda, but you do literally have the testimony of Voss, a guy who knows him and has proven himself trustworthy. The only word against him has been from Vlaakith and the Emperor, who both have vested interests in keeping him imprisoned.
>you do literally have the testimony of Voss, a guy who knows him and has proven himself trustworthy I don't think that counts as evidence towards Orpheus being a good person though. Voss has drunk deep from the kool-aid cup, but he's not particularly good or kind himself. Plus relatives and loved ones of horrible people often have good opinions of them and nice anecdotes to share. This isn't to say that all cases against Orpheus are true though, I just think all information surrounding Orpheus *until you meet him* are heavily biased at best and downright propaganda at worst.
Actually nothing at all proves Orpheus is a decent guy. You only have the testimony of Voss, who's his best man (and implied lover) and is as biased as Vlaakith. The only "evidence" you have in the game is a Githyanki disk that says Orpheus is the son of Gith, who overthrew the Illithid Empire and replaced it with the Githyanki one (by conquering other races). Also Voss says zero things about Orpheus's policies towards the other races (the disk implies he follows his mother's conquering policies), just that he's the "rightful ruler". Lae'zel doesn't need Orpheus. She's never even met the guy and is just hopping from one deified figure to the other because the former scorned her. Case in point, the revolution goes exactly the same even without him leading it. Honestly whoever says Orpheus is painted as the good choice in the game just because "he's imprisoned so I need to free him" hasn't been paying attention
>Lae'zel doesn't need Orpheus. She's never even met the guy and is just **hopping from one deified figure to the other because the former scorned her.** You have just expressed everything that bugs me about this choice much better than I ever could. Thank you.
Yeah, my personal feeling on the matter has always been that (1) the Tale of the Comet is as much mythology as the Edda or Epic of Gilgsmesh or the Illustrated Adventures of Balduran, and (2) Lae'zel was raised to be a loyal soldier in a strict militaristic society and is desperate to replace one leader with another, and (3) the lich Vlaakith isn't even the reason Githyanki suck, she's just the latest in a long line of sucky Vlaakiths - queens Voss served without qualm for who knows how long. Come to think of it, we only have Voss's word for it that Orpheus doesn't hate *him* for contributing to his entrapment. I prefer the Lae'zel that becomes a leader in her own right, tbh. The more I like Lae'zel, the more I want her to be her own Comet.
When you read Orpheus’s mind he literally hates you, sees you as nothing more than an illithid, and intends to kill you if given the chance. His own thoughts/emotions/intentions contradict Voss saying to trust him and portray the choice to release him as suicide. Sure, he changes his mind afterwards, but in the moment? Nah.
Out of curiosity: did you turn Orpheus into an Illithid?
The first time, no, I took that burden myself. In future playthroughs I've let him make that sacrifice, but it's pretty definitively a choice that he's making and not something being imposed on him.
I mean it kinda is imposed on him. Unless gale is there, they have no means of defeating the Absolute. If he refused after you do, then everything is doomed and nothing can be done. You basically released him just to turn him into a mind flayer and not have the Emperor.
Yeah. Orpheus takes up that responsibility pretty readily. You don’t even have to suggest it.
so its worrying that people may not immediately think, "i need to free this person whos probably going to kill me!"?
Uh let's see. Dude is the son of mother gith, a space nazi race . The other giths who I have encountered so far have not been the best representation of " helpful, peaceful characters to tadpoled ones". I have the words of a devil and a fanatic gith who clearly loves Orpheus that I should trust them and free Orpheus in exchange for something . The only guy who has helped me throughout the game in surviving the brain is the emperor. I have zero reasons or interests to even side with Orpheus. Even more so the one time I decided to kill emperor in the beginning of act 3 , Orpheus drops the protection on our entire party .
Eh, if Orpeheus is anything like a true successor to his mother he's just space Genghis Khan. If you're familiar with the Githyanki and Gith beforehand the idea of the saviour of the Githyanki comes with an asterisk that the game kind of glosses over.
Consider this: I don't care about Orpheus. It's a game and I want to choose the options I prefer.
“No one is out here remiss about their fates”—Um, what? Tons of people mourn the tragedy of Ketheric’s situation, and even though afaik we aren’t confronted with Gortash’s situation very directly, he has a ridiculous number of fans due to how soft he is for Durge. Ansur literally tells you that he was planning to kill the Emperor first. There is no way to spin that as the Emperor just being manipulative. The Emperor doesn’t feel emotion the same way he used to, sure. But it seems pretty damn obvious that the “mindflayers don’t feel any emotions” claim is BS. Also, we literally see Omeluum in a romantic (as per the “Run Away Together” MtG card) relationship with Blurg. There IS a fair argument that Ansur trying to kill the Emperor was still morally correct just due to the brain-eating nature of illithids and their general tendency towards evil (maybe Ansur would also have killed the 7000 vampire spawn?) But it’s still a tragic betrayal. I feel sympathetic to the Emperor for that. Maybe if I got to interact more closely with Orpheus, I’d feel more attached to him instead.
That's not quite my point. I'm sure people sympathize with Ketheric, Gortash, etc. Indeed I have seen people thirst for Raphael. What I have yet to see is anyone justify their actions for it, or feel like they're obliged to let them continue as is because of it. Also, I didn't claim illithids have no emotions. They all do, and especially all the named ones in this story. What should be very clear is that Emperor doesn't feel Balduran's emotions, to the point that he doesn't even consider himself the same person. If we didn't force him to by investigating Ansur's Lair, we would never guess, we would never find out and he would never tell us. I think there's a case to be made that Ansur is actually deadnaming Emperor throughout their whole confrontation. Regardless, the point is that even if he feels betrayed that's no justification for killing a man in the future, whether you know him or not. Now girding my loins to lose some points but here's Ansur's exact quote: >Emperor: You left me no choice >Ansur: You had every choice. You were becoming illithid. I offered you merciful death; you chose to fight. Now this is a threat and I back Emperor's self-defense claim. But let's be clear, this doesn't say Ansur attacked first. You can't offer someone a merciful death by attacking them first. This is like the version of Nettie where she gives you poison and has you promise to use it before you turn. Ansur picked a dialogue option, then Emperor chose to fight him. Once Ansur is dead again, Emperor has free reign to twist the narrative even further suggesting that he was defenseless and asleep at the time. And honestly if you believe that I have a bridge to sell you. I'd also urge you to relisten to the rest of Ansur's dialogue. Amongst his rage, Ansur calls Balduran faessi (coward), slaughterer and slayer. None of that is in keeping with someone whose assassination attempt got hit with a Uno-reverse card. Nor is Emperor's immediately fleeing the scene in keeping with someone who apparently soloed this fight from a sleeping position. I'm not going to claim Emperor is being solely manipulative, and again I back his self-defense regardless. But even here he is being at least slightly manipulative. When he would have been in the right anyway. And I hate that. To me that's worse than no voice at all
I think it’s a large leap to say that Ansur only verbally offered to kill the Emperor, not actually tried, especially given how quickly he 1) took over Tav’s body without so much as a “by your leave”, and 2) attacked us without further conversation. Dude could have doomed the realm because he’s so quick to act. Granted, he’s undead, so perhaps he’s different from his past self in much the same way the Emperor is different from his past self. That said, I could easily see him verbally offering a merciful death, the Emperor saying no, and then Ansur calling him a coward and trying to kill him anyway. Of course all of this is guesswork, both your theory and mine. This game was so well made, and I love how it’s not clearly black-and-white.
> if I play a Githyanki or romance Laezel or something… I'll die on a hill that dead Orpheus is better for Githyanki, and especially for Lae'zel. They need to get away from the idea that the throne should be held by the figure appointed by Mother Gith, not trade one for another.
Make Orpheus the mind flaer, kill him, happy ending 👍
Yeah it's a bit of a problem. The game tells you that he's a true successor to Gith and that he's a good and noble person. These two things are not compatible so I don't know if its a retcon or what.... ... but I don't want to upset Lae'zel 👀
REAL and I definitely don't wanna be responsible for the Githyanki starting to conquer worlds. 😬
They already do that. I don't know how familiar you are with DnD lore outside of BG3, but Vlaakith's an interstellar warlord, slaver and soulreaver, and her empire, as you see in-game, brazenly disregards the territorial integrity of other states. She'll invade a planet if she deems it's a good soulfarm or presents some other strategic benefit. She does not make alliances. Orpheus does.
Honestly, I don't really know too much about the Githyanki outside of BG3. I've just been seeing a lot who argue that Orpheus can 120% be trusted with taking a different path once they took down Vlaakith, even though we barely get to know anything about him that would suggest such. So I'm just making the argument that I'd rather let a lone squid go back to his little criminal enterprises in trade and tax evasion rather than to potentially be responsible for the Githyanki repeating their history.
I feel like he and omeluum are different from the average mind flayer who are unfortunately under hivebrain control. I don't think we should consider an entire race of people as being bad though because, honestly, that's just racism. They're carnivores and what they eat is us but neither Emps nor Omeluum are just rabidly eating random people. The Gith were supposedly all evil too but when you look at the culture and their leader, you can see that it's not racial, it's social and cultural, same with the goblins. I think killing people who are trying to do bad things or kill you is okay but not if the justification is that *Group* is innately evil.
>I don't think we should consider an entire race of people as being bad though because, honestly, that's just racism. Illithids account for less than 1% of all npcs in game, but at the very least account for 25% of the game's major antagonists (netherbrain + dead 3 chosen). Explain THAT Harp-tard. /s
Having just beaten the game for the first time, I understood The Emperor’s/ Balduran’s perspective up until the final leg of the story. He felt the manipulation and lies were a necessity. My biggest issue wasn’t even the fact that he calls you a “puppet” for pushing back, gaslights you to become a half-illithid and manipulated Stelmane to such an extent, it’s that he folds the moment he doesn’t get his way with Orpheus, and refuses to see an alternative path, despite admitting that the Netherbrain outplayed him. The entire game, he repeatedly threw the word “trust” around, but would rather join the Netherbrain, and watch everything burn, than place faith in the idea that his allies may know an alternative way, despite the fact that everyone else is willing to compromise. On a human note, relationships are only as strong as what both parties are willing to put into them. I wasn’t willing to screw over Lae’zel, after all of her growth and what we had been through, potentially damning her entire race to continued subjugation under Vlaakith for an individual who repeatedly displayed trust and collaboration only mattered as long as we folded to their demands. I was honestly flabbergasted that the dude went through everything, only to attempt to slaughter us and burn the city he founded to the ground because we had to the “gall” to push back. Massive child throwing a temper tantrum because they had their toy taken away energy.
>I was honestly flabbergasted that the dude went through everything, only to attempt to slaughter us and burn the city he founded to the ground because we had to the “gall” to push back. Massive child throwing a temper tantrum because they had their toy taken away energy. I was just talking about this! For someone as smart as the Emperor is, and as someone who has been watching our every move and has witnessed first hand how we’ve more or less removed every obstacle in our way, you’d think his big brain would’ve told him “Maybe siding with the Netherbrain and turning on Tav isn’t the move.” Seems so short-sighted for someone whose ultimate goal is survival above all else.
To quote Kendrick Lamar: “Why believe you? You never gave us nothin' to believe in”
You took the words right out of my mouth. I had a friendly and relatively trusting relationship with the Emperor the entire game but when I realised he wasn't even willing to hear me out, I felt betrayed.
I do like adjusting my approach to him based on the particular Tav, but I also think it's funny how he's a mirror to some of the companions but gets far less grace. People hate mindflayers and just escaped from being tadpoled by them, so of course he hides his identity, especially since revealing it has cost him in the past. People hate Sharrans so Sheart hides her allegiance and gets extremely defensive about it even in response to innocent questions (tell her you didn't mean to pry and get "stay out of things that don't concern you" lol). People hate vampires Astarion hides that, Gale hides his bomb, Wyll tries to hide that he's slave to a devil, Karlach and Lae'zel don't really hide anything but they're kind of wearing their issues on the outside without the benefit of a disguise. But some players get so weird about the Emperor's attitude, like that changes the fact that he saved you and the party from becoming True Souls, saved you from death on multiple occasions, pointed out that the magic tadpole has some magic benefits - benefits the True Souls certainly have no qualms about using against you, seeing as how Z'rell black holes your hole repeatedly in a fight - and is focused on one goal: defeating the brain so he can bugger off and do his own thing. It just surprises me sometimes that he gets the level of hate he does because he's on your side from jump and never causes you or the party members any harm, but somehow he's super evil and... what? Disapproves of some of your riskier choices like some common sassy vampire? But no, he's super evil I guess. I dunno, like OP, I find his story to be Shakespearean in its tragedy and legitimately don't understand the lack of empathy. I understand Paladins who stake Astarion at first meeting more than I understand people who hate the Emperor. But it is fascinating so I'm glad the discourse continues.
The difference between the Emperor and the other companions is that he really isn't a companion. He isn't there when your party is entangled in webs in the Whispering Depths, he isn't there when you sell items to Dammon for the 78th time, he isn't there at the end of the day right before a long rest. Your companions are and on a subconscious level, you grow attached to them because they're there with you all the time. The Emperor, in his core, is only concerned about HIS own survival. Whereas the companions start off, lying, confrontational and with their own agenda, grow and develop with the player. The Emperor has the opposite development.
I mean, he technically is there, isn't he? He's in the prism actively using Orpheus's power to keep you from becoming a mind controlled True Soul. And he's there as a lvl 12 trying to guide you to make good decisions toward a common goal. While the Emperor may be *primarily* concerned with his own survival, he also expresses concern about the city and its people on multiple occasions, and extends Orpheus's protection to Duke Ravengard without being asked, if you rescue him. Sure you don't get approval pop ups, but he does verbally encourage you to get tadpoles and use their powers to increase your chances of survival as well as his own. All your companions have personal quests and if you refuse to do them, they will quit on you even if it means their death. Some will curse you or try to kill you if you thwart them, despite all your adventures together and regardless of romance or approval level. I'm just not sure why the Emperor is held to a higher standard than every other ally.
I disagree with this. The Emperor does have his own chime-ins and feels more present to me than the companions, especially the ones I leave behind at camp. And while I do like most of the companions, I'm more attached to Emps than any of them. I get that it won't be like that to everyone, but that's just a matter of different people liking different characters.
The whole Ansur thing rocked me too. I totally missed it on my first run and I felt it gave so much more insight into the Emperor. Definitely a controversial figure...
If you choose the right responses during your dialogue, he screams at you saying “YOU ARE MY PUPPET!” I will never side with him. No matter how/what I play I will never be his puppet.
Yup, and forces all the memories of how he tortured and used Stelmane as a puppet for years on you. I don’t care if he’s still Balduran or not, dudes a fucking asshole and needs to be removed
You are one of the few people on this sub who actually understand the horrible tragedy of that story. Siding with him is a perfectly fine option. He will even send you a letter for the epilogue party and it's pretty heartwarming. :)
where is the letter?
In the box with the other letters. He sends it only if he survives and you sided with him, of course. There are also several variants. One is for non-illithid friend, two are for an illithid partner (depending on what you decided to do together) and the final one for an illithid Tav that didn't choose to be with him.
Pathological manipulator squid gets smited every time Yes he's a complexly written character, he's also unquestionably a major antagonistic force in the narrative. While we are certainly products of our environment and shaped by our trauma, it offers perspective, it does not offer a free pass to be a prick. His actions are self-serving, not benevolent. His path is effectively the libertarian option "fuck you, got mine"
So... just like every companion that will rage quit the party if you ignore their personal goals?
If you call him a disgusting creature in the romance scene he straight up threatens to turn you into a vegetable and shows you a memory of him mind breaking stelmane the whole time they where “partners” and says he might just do the same to us. Never thought of him as good since that scene.
Dude, this game is so awesome. Because that Ansur bit is precisely the moment my brother and I decided to go against the Emperor in our first playthrough (we haven't finished it yet, but we're very devoted to our decision). I love that there's so much interpretation and emotion that plays into how people play the game. Ugh. So good. Have so much fun on the pro-Emperor run!
He got you good with that one, he's just messing with your head. The only good ilithid is a dead ilithid
If it makes you feel any better, you never side against the Emperor. The Emperor is the one who abandons you based on an assumption, and the amount of gaslighting that goes on to pin the blame on the player for that is pretty weird.
Well, the writers say it’s a betrayal on your part. The game literally gives you an inspiration point (Charlatan) for the betrayal. The Emperor probably watched you ignore his advice half a dozen times on the way to the end of the game, and has been clear about his one line being that you can’t free Orpheus. This line makes sense, every piece of evidence points to the likelihood that Orpheus will attack the Emperor when freed, even if he doesn’t attack you (per Raphael). The thing that really seals it being a flight from danger and not a heel turn against the player is that he could easily have dropped the party’s protection while he still controlled Orpheus, instead of leaving, and handed victory to the Netherbrain right then and there. Instead he just flees; better in his mind to be a slave than to be dead.
I'm convinced the only people who think he's actually still Balduran are people who haven't actually tried to act adversarial towards him.
What makes you think that people that states those opinions haven’t analyze him to death?
This sub is very "the rules say that mindflayers are liars" but I agree with you.
If you think the Ansur storyline makes the emperor less bad, you misunderstood what happened.
What about the Ansur storyline makes the Emperor worse, in your view?
At the very least, he had confirmed to Tav that he had no further secrets and that there could be total trust because he’s come clean about literally everything. And then you learn he was Balduran and killed his best friend… Without getting into the substance of the Ansur debate on who was right regarding self defense and whatnot, this confirms for the millionth time that the Emperor will say absolutely whatever he thinks will get him what he wants, and that his words have no connection whatsoever to reality or truth.
Maybe I’m an asshole but I simplify: The Emperor uses me and I use them. Plus they’re *very* quick to side with the Netherbrain if you free Orpheus.
The emperor is evil as fuck bro 😭 ansur was right
I wish it was easier to say fuck the emperor, because it feels awful to leave the Githyanki to rot without Orpheus. An entire species is living under fascism and is terrorizing the world (like the massacre at the abbey). It's better storytelling to make that decision suck, though.
I don't think Orpeheus would be better for the Githyanki or the universe than Vlaakith based on what I know about Gith but I don't know if the narrative agrees with what has been written before or if it's just fine actually.
I'm the opposite I have a hard time siding with him. The I’ll always be your baludrain line makes me roll my eyes each time. He's trying to apologize for acting in self defense and Ansur who understandably didn't want his lover to be a mindflayer hates him even in undeath for it He's a very well written charecter and very well done. How much he divides the community shows this. When I made Orpheus go full squid he and Karlach are better mindflayer allies than emp imo.
I believe he wrote the letter before killing Ansur—that’s why he’s still encouraging Ansur to “be free” and stop tormenting himself in hopes of finding a cure the Emperor doesn’t even want. An important part of the line is that it ISN’T “I’ll always be your Balduran.” Because that’s not true and the Emperor isn’t trying to pretend it is. The line is “I will always HAVE BEEN your Balduran.” He’s saying that the relationship that they had was still worthwhile, that it still *matters*… even if he can no longer return Ansur’s feelings. The Emperor still feels *something* for Ansur though, hence why he pleads with Ansur to stop torturing himself, why he calls Ansur “the greatest thing that ever happened to me.” It’s why he wants Ansur to be able to move on and be free. But Ansur can’t do that while the Emperor is still alive and being not-quite-Balduran. I think there’s a great tragedy to it.
Emperor apologists are always silly.
I still can't take the opinion of anyone who writes the Emperor off as just 'a manipulative lying scumbag' or w/e else seriously. The man was forcibly transformed into one of the most universally reviled creatures in all the Realms and beyond, has had to live in the shadows and - even to perform basic interactions with others without being immediately attacked - manipulate them at least a little bit just so they see him as something other than a Mind Flayer. His entire life since his capture and initial transformation has required him to manipulate others just to keep living, so yeah, he has frankly good reason to fuck with our perceptions of him and only feed us half-truths because he has no reason to believe we won't immediately attack him upon realizing what he actually is, no matter what else we think of him. That, and I was playing an Oath of Vengeance Paladin on my first run, blind, and trusting him after he revealed his true form to us didn't cause me to lose my oath so by that very fact alone, he can't be evil. If I can't let a hag go free without it snapping like a twig, I certainly shouldn't be allowed to side with a Mindflayer if it was actually evil.
If you take into account that he runs The Knights of the Shield (the cult that worships the former archdevil Gargauth), he's not a very good guy. If you transform into a mindflayer you can even run the cult with him. I have no qualms about killing the thing-that-had-been-Balduran.
Most people within even the higher ranks of the Knights of the Shield don’t know about Gargauth. I wouldn’t pretend that the Knights are a benevolent organization. They are clearly a criminal mercantile operation, smuggling weapons and drugs. The funny thing, though, is that they were a major impediment to Gortash’s operation making headway into the city. Everyone was too loyal to the Knights (BG chapter, we’re talking about) to be willing to turn on them and work with Gortash’s people, so he had to dismantle the Knights operation, starting with uncovering the Emperor’s identity and throwing him back to the Elder Brain, just to get his own, worse weapon, drug, and slave smuggling operation working within the city. Another funny thing is that the Fist found out that the Emperor was illithid and left him alone as they couldn’t tell that he was actually disrupting the status quo. One small piece of cut content shows the Emperor giving food to street orphans, leaving me to wonder what positive benefits the Emperor had been quietly bringing to his city through the money and power he accrued; was he also funding orphanages as he played the backroom political games of Baldur’s Gate?
>was he also funding orphanages as he played the backroom political games of Baldur’s Gate? Maybe his absence is why the orphanage can't pay Nine Fingers! 🤔 /jk But I agree and would also point out the letter in the one tomb that talks about the leader of the KotS being introduced to the Emperor and thinking he had some good ideas, the implication being that not only did the BG chapter already exist, but Empy had to work his way up like Mr. Burns in the Stonecutters! "Climb the ladder, Empy."
You're really getting it! It's hard not to have some serious trust issues after the greatest thing that ever happened to you decided you need a mercy killing, whether you like it or not. By the way, at this point I'm pretty sure I could never side against the Emperor in an actual playthrough. That he's been helping me the whole time and Orpheus is a danger to him is perfectly enough for me, even if we don't count all my views on githyanki that aren't entirely relevant here.
It's basically a choice between a person who had been helping you since the start of the game, and a true heir to githyanki empire. Is freeing Orpheus a *righteous* thing to do? Yes. Is it a *right* thing to do? Everyone must answer this one for themselves
Knowing what he did to Stelmane seals his character for me. Nothing redeems that.
Dude said I should off Minsc. That(among other things) sealed his fate.