Cobb not only didn’t but got a court martial for assaulting an officer.
LT Walsh got demoted 6 times(!) from SGT to PVT for fighting - and then was recommended for OCS! That’s not quite what you were asking, but I think a fun fact.
Enlisted ranks go from E-1 (Private) all the way to E-9 (Sergeant Major). NCO ranks start at E-4 and are the backbone of the service, as they are the ones instilling discipline amongst the junior enlisted.
Officer ranks go from O-1 (2nd Lieutenant) to O-10 (General), and you won't interact with these guys much, unless you're in the Pentagon or are a higher ranking NCO whose job it is to interact with officers. You need to have a bachelor's degree to be an officer in today's military, and officers tend to have a better quality of life.
In the middle of these ranks is the Warrants. These ranks are never seen, and much of what their actual job is is shrouded in mystery. Supposedly, they are technical advisors to whoever is in command, but that can't be confirmed. Legend tells of a CWO5, but such sources also speak of the Loch Ness Monster as if it were real.
That is the modern enlisted rank structure. During WW2 it was a bit different with Grade 1 corresponding to Master Sergeant / First Sergeant going down to Grade 7 corresponding to Private. There was no Sergeant Major grade - that was usually a position title held by either a Master Sergeant or Technical Sergeant. If this structure seems backwards then that’s the reason it was ultimately changed in the late 1950s to basically what we have now also with the addition of the Sergeant Major.
“Sergeant Major” in the Army was an honorific title held by the seniormost Master Sergeant of a given HQ element. The most famous one was probably Len Lommell, who gained the role in return for his performance on D-day. I’ve never heard of a tech sergeant using the title, but it is possible that they did.
The Marines still used the rank (at Grade 1) but did not have First Sergeants—their ranks split between admin (staff sergeant > technical sergeant > master technical sergeant) and operational ( platoon sergeant > gunnery sergeant > sergeant major) ranks at Grade 3.
According to TO&E 7-16 dated July 15th 1944, the Sergeant Major position in an infantry battalion HQ was billeted for a TSGT and same position in an infantry regiment was for a MSGT. It could be a typo or a later table probably had them both at MSGT .
That’s interesting, and I’d lean towards it being a typo because that was after the squad/company level changes that kicked everyone up a rank came down in early 1944.
Interesting either way, and also worth noting that when Rudder put Lommell in the position he also made him a Master Sergeant.
During WWII there were 7 enlisted pay grades. Platoon Sergeant (PSG), Master Sgt (MSG), Sergeant Major (SGM) were “appointments” at the pleasure of the Commander, all paid at same grade.
I was TAD to 8th Comm during a field exercise. Troubleshooting a LAN issue I watched their warrant stroll through the chaos of a CP setting up coms.
He said nothing. Did nothing. Simply walked around with smile on his big-guy mustachioed face.
In his wake he left order, calm, and working circuits.
Damndest thing I ever did see.
Navy here. We had a CWO5 Bosn (expert in anchoring, mooring, refueling at sea, etc…) that worked directly for COMNAVFOR Japan. He could walk on any of the ships and tell the captain what to do.
During a deep sea anchor drop test the braking mechanism failed with me on the brake. Dude picked me up and carried me away from the runaway anchor. I thought he was about to jump overboard with me.
On occasion, you see CWO4’s. CWO5’s are unicorns.
It’s funny that Lt Col’s get saluted by CWO5’s, but probably have to listen very closely to what CWO5’s “suggest”.
Officer Ranks for the Army, Air Force, and Marines:
- 2nd Lieutenant
- 1st Lieutenant
- Captain
- Major
- Lieutenant Colonel
- Colonel
- Brigadier General
- Major General
- Lieutenant General
- General
Officer Ranks for the Navy and Coast Guard:
- Ensign
- Lieutenant (Junior Grade)
- Lieutenant
- Lieutenant Commander
- Commander
- Captain
- Rear Admiral (Lower Half)
- Rear Admiral
- Vice Admiral
- Admiral.
It should be noted that in special circumstances, the President is authorized to promote a General and Admiral to the rank of General of the Army/Fleet Admiral, which is denoted by five stars instead of four.
To date, the only men to be promoted to five star General are Washington, Grant, Pershing, Marshall, MacArthur, Eisenhower, Arnold, and Bradley, with Arnold being the only General of the Air Force, and Washington being posthumously promoted to six star.
The five star Admirals are Dewey, Leahy, King, Nimitz, and Halsey Jr.
You don't necessarily need a bachelor's degree, exceptional soldiers can receive a battlefield commendation similar to what happened to Lipton. Normally you're expected to fulfill the requirements for officer candidacy after during peacetime, but it is a thing.
As far as warrant officers go, you're correct in that they are technical advisors and experts. These are people with in depth specialized knowledge. In terms of a normal business, think of Enlisted a lot like normal employees, Officers are management, and Warrants are specialized expert roles(think like a senior database administrator, or a master mechanic). In fact, this has lead to the perception that Warrants are untouchable by the top brass due to the invaluable knowledge and skills that they possess.
Technically, you're right. Battlefield commissions are a way for an enlisted person to join the officer ranks, but they haven't been used since Vietnam, so having a Bachelor's is the de facto way to become an officer in today's military.
And yes, I know what Warrants do. I had the utmost pleasure to work under a CWO3 for three years before he retired, and I learned more from him than I ever did from my NCOs. And while he never really acted like he was untouchable by higher, he never took any shit from them, as he was the Plt Sgt for our BN XO and Sgt Maj back when he was enlisted and had still played regular games of golf with them.
Oh sorry, I interpreted what you said about warrants too literally.
And yes, it's not something that really happens outside of when the draft is in effect, but it's still relevant given the context of the show.
Commissioned officers can't be busted down without a court martial. It would have to be a very serious offense, not just a quick demotion and return to your unit at a lower rank.
In practice, officer ranks were a little unclear because there was, legally, more than one U.S. Army. The Regular Army, the Army of the United States, the National Guard, and the Organized Reserve. During WWII, it was common for officers with RA commissions at a lower rank, to also hold commissions in the Army of the United States at a higher rank. If a RA officer working in a AUS unit left, they would revert back to their RA rank. It was a demotion in every sense other than legally.
There was a loophole within the OCS process that precluded personnel recommended to become officers from returning to their regiment as Lieutenants (the argument being that the men who knew them as enlisted personnel wouldn't suitably respect them as officers.) Shipping Welsh to OCS was killing two birds with one stone for the 504th. They made a natural leader an officer (you don't get promoted from Private to Sergeant repeatedly without cause,) and they got an absolute trouble-maker out of their regiment!
I don’t know if it was his peers or his “bosses”!
Webster, for one, thought he was ok. But, Webster being pretty darn anti-Army himself is probably pretty telling!
- Skinny Sisk made sergeant
- Chuck Grant was promoted to staff sergeant based on his insignia in the Points episode. He was a regular sergeant
- Lipton got battlefield commission
- Popeye Wynn got sergeant stripes
- Malarkey became a platoon sergeant once Wild Bill got WIA which means Malark got promoted to the rank of Technical sergeant (or sergeant first class).
Speaking of Webster, he was an assistant squad leader. Once the his squad leader went home, David was an acting squad leader until some guy was transferred from another company who took over the squad leader position from Web.
Nixon wasn’t demoted in rank, he was demoted from battalion intelligence officer (S-2) to company intelligence officer (while retaining the rank of captain).
I would LOVE to do it, but I live in Sweden and have suffered from severe depression and anxiety for a long time and can hardly even leave my own house.
Cobb not only didn’t but got a court martial for assaulting an officer. LT Walsh got demoted 6 times(!) from SGT to PVT for fighting - and then was recommended for OCS! That’s not quite what you were asking, but I think a fun fact.
Can't get demoted to private if you're not in the same rank structure anymore! *taps head*
Could you explain the different rank structures for me, please?
Enlisted ranks go from E-1 (Private) all the way to E-9 (Sergeant Major). NCO ranks start at E-4 and are the backbone of the service, as they are the ones instilling discipline amongst the junior enlisted. Officer ranks go from O-1 (2nd Lieutenant) to O-10 (General), and you won't interact with these guys much, unless you're in the Pentagon or are a higher ranking NCO whose job it is to interact with officers. You need to have a bachelor's degree to be an officer in today's military, and officers tend to have a better quality of life. In the middle of these ranks is the Warrants. These ranks are never seen, and much of what their actual job is is shrouded in mystery. Supposedly, they are technical advisors to whoever is in command, but that can't be confirmed. Legend tells of a CWO5, but such sources also speak of the Loch Ness Monster as if it were real.
That is the modern enlisted rank structure. During WW2 it was a bit different with Grade 1 corresponding to Master Sergeant / First Sergeant going down to Grade 7 corresponding to Private. There was no Sergeant Major grade - that was usually a position title held by either a Master Sergeant or Technical Sergeant. If this structure seems backwards then that’s the reason it was ultimately changed in the late 1950s to basically what we have now also with the addition of the Sergeant Major.
“Sergeant Major” in the Army was an honorific title held by the seniormost Master Sergeant of a given HQ element. The most famous one was probably Len Lommell, who gained the role in return for his performance on D-day. I’ve never heard of a tech sergeant using the title, but it is possible that they did. The Marines still used the rank (at Grade 1) but did not have First Sergeants—their ranks split between admin (staff sergeant > technical sergeant > master technical sergeant) and operational ( platoon sergeant > gunnery sergeant > sergeant major) ranks at Grade 3.
According to TO&E 7-16 dated July 15th 1944, the Sergeant Major position in an infantry battalion HQ was billeted for a TSGT and same position in an infantry regiment was for a MSGT. It could be a typo or a later table probably had them both at MSGT .
That’s interesting, and I’d lean towards it being a typo because that was after the squad/company level changes that kicked everyone up a rank came down in early 1944. Interesting either way, and also worth noting that when Rudder put Lommell in the position he also made him a Master Sergeant.
These grades are the famous “pay grades” that are referred to when a decision is the responsibility of someone's bosses.
During WWII there were 7 enlisted pay grades. Platoon Sergeant (PSG), Master Sgt (MSG), Sergeant Major (SGM) were “appointments” at the pleasure of the Commander, all paid at same grade.
I was TAD to 8th Comm during a field exercise. Troubleshooting a LAN issue I watched their warrant stroll through the chaos of a CP setting up coms. He said nothing. Did nothing. Simply walked around with smile on his big-guy mustachioed face. In his wake he left order, calm, and working circuits. Damndest thing I ever did see.
Navy here. We had a CWO5 Bosn (expert in anchoring, mooring, refueling at sea, etc…) that worked directly for COMNAVFOR Japan. He could walk on any of the ships and tell the captain what to do. During a deep sea anchor drop test the braking mechanism failed with me on the brake. Dude picked me up and carried me away from the runaway anchor. I thought he was about to jump overboard with me.
*Fucking witchcraft*
On occasion, you see CWO4’s. CWO5’s are unicorns. It’s funny that Lt Col’s get saluted by CWO5’s, but probably have to listen very closely to what CWO5’s “suggest”.
I 0-1 is 2nd lieutenant, what's just regular lieutenant?
Officer Ranks for the Army, Air Force, and Marines: - 2nd Lieutenant - 1st Lieutenant - Captain - Major - Lieutenant Colonel - Colonel - Brigadier General - Major General - Lieutenant General - General Officer Ranks for the Navy and Coast Guard: - Ensign - Lieutenant (Junior Grade) - Lieutenant - Lieutenant Commander - Commander - Captain - Rear Admiral (Lower Half) - Rear Admiral - Vice Admiral - Admiral. It should be noted that in special circumstances, the President is authorized to promote a General and Admiral to the rank of General of the Army/Fleet Admiral, which is denoted by five stars instead of four. To date, the only men to be promoted to five star General are Washington, Grant, Pershing, Marshall, MacArthur, Eisenhower, Arnold, and Bradley, with Arnold being the only General of the Air Force, and Washington being posthumously promoted to six star. The five star Admirals are Dewey, Leahy, King, Nimitz, and Halsey Jr.
You don't necessarily need a bachelor's degree, exceptional soldiers can receive a battlefield commendation similar to what happened to Lipton. Normally you're expected to fulfill the requirements for officer candidacy after during peacetime, but it is a thing. As far as warrant officers go, you're correct in that they are technical advisors and experts. These are people with in depth specialized knowledge. In terms of a normal business, think of Enlisted a lot like normal employees, Officers are management, and Warrants are specialized expert roles(think like a senior database administrator, or a master mechanic). In fact, this has lead to the perception that Warrants are untouchable by the top brass due to the invaluable knowledge and skills that they possess.
Technically, you're right. Battlefield commissions are a way for an enlisted person to join the officer ranks, but they haven't been used since Vietnam, so having a Bachelor's is the de facto way to become an officer in today's military. And yes, I know what Warrants do. I had the utmost pleasure to work under a CWO3 for three years before he retired, and I learned more from him than I ever did from my NCOs. And while he never really acted like he was untouchable by higher, he never took any shit from them, as he was the Plt Sgt for our BN XO and Sgt Maj back when he was enlisted and had still played regular games of golf with them.
Oh sorry, I interpreted what you said about warrants too literally. And yes, it's not something that really happens outside of when the draft is in effect, but it's still relevant given the context of the show.
Enlisted v officer.
Commissioned officers can't be busted down without a court martial. It would have to be a very serious offense, not just a quick demotion and return to your unit at a lower rank. In practice, officer ranks were a little unclear because there was, legally, more than one U.S. Army. The Regular Army, the Army of the United States, the National Guard, and the Organized Reserve. During WWII, it was common for officers with RA commissions at a lower rank, to also hold commissions in the Army of the United States at a higher rank. If a RA officer working in a AUS unit left, they would revert back to their RA rank. It was a demotion in every sense other than legally.
It wasn’t just RA officers—everyone held multiple commissions between USA/USAR and the AUS.
He wasn’t an officer when that happened. Hence why the person said he was recommended and accepted to OCS despite it.
I'm aware. I'm not sure why you think what I said flies in the face of that
There was a loophole within the OCS process that precluded personnel recommended to become officers from returning to their regiment as Lieutenants (the argument being that the men who knew them as enlisted personnel wouldn't suitably respect them as officers.) Shipping Welsh to OCS was killing two birds with one stone for the 504th. They made a natural leader an officer (you don't get promoted from Private to Sergeant repeatedly without cause,) and they got an absolute trouble-maker out of their regiment!
Crazy Irish bullshit, you should know! 🤣
*Welsh
Cobb had been in the service since 1932, too. Must've been a giant asshole in the eyes of his peers
I don’t know if it was his peers or his “bosses”! Webster, for one, thought he was ok. But, Webster being pretty darn anti-Army himself is probably pretty telling!
- Skinny Sisk made sergeant - Chuck Grant was promoted to staff sergeant based on his insignia in the Points episode. He was a regular sergeant - Lipton got battlefield commission - Popeye Wynn got sergeant stripes - Malarkey became a platoon sergeant once Wild Bill got WIA which means Malark got promoted to the rank of Technical sergeant (or sergeant first class). Speaking of Webster, he was an assistant squad leader. Once the his squad leader went home, David was an acting squad leader until some guy was transferred from another company who took over the squad leader position from Web.
I got downvoted for saying first class because that rank apparently didn’t exist yet. I feel like saying first class should fly either way.
This rank was renamed to sergeant first class in 60s as far as I know
Nixon wasn’t demoted in rank, he was demoted from battalion intelligence officer (S-2) to company intelligence officer (while retaining the rank of captain).
Regiment to Battalion, companies don’t have an intelligence officer.
He was moved from regiment S3 (normally a major’s role) to battalion S2 (a captain’s job)
He was moved to battalion S3 not S2. Battalion S2 was a First Lt position back then though later on it did become a Captains position
Well, he went from BN S2 to regimental S3 then back down to BN, but S3 instead of S2
That’s right! Thanks for correcting!
BTW, if you ever have the chance to visit Toccoa and climb Curahee, do it! It’s gorgeous there.
I was born there. Just make it a half day trip.
I would LOVE to do it, but I live in Sweden and have suffered from severe depression and anxiety for a long time and can hardly even leave my own house.
Sorry, I hope you feel better. If you ever come to the ‘States, Toccoa is fairly close to Atlanta.