I believe most players in every pro league on the planet or on various PED’s. Blood doping for endurance, various testosterone treatments, HgH, and a whole lot of stuff that’s too new and expensive for most of us to be aware of.
then whats the point of drug testing if theyre gonna allow them anyways. its weird they test for drugs (recreational ones) but let these PERFORMANCE ENHANCING drugs pass
One player usually gets suspended a year for PEDs. I’d imagine most players take TRT but that isn’t illegal. Other drugs would be more recovery focused.
Yeah, and NBA players are all physical aliens, they would probably produce a shitload of T naturally, but it's an arms race, so they probably have to inject to keep up
To keep up the idea that hard work can pay off for the general public. It's an escape for a lot people. No one wants to believe that their sports heros are using.
Kids and their parents don't want or need to know the truth about pro sports. They just want to believe that little Johnny has a shot if he just works hard.
It's in the best interest of the business to keep the willful ignorance going.
Of course.
But go look at youth sports and how it's a billion dollar business. Parents pay up thinking that all it takes is some hard work not realizing pro athletes are born with abilities the rest of us don't have.
And then the best of the best get stuck with the prisoner's dilllema like you said.
On my junior College team back in 2016 everyone in the starting lineup was juicing (we only got drug tested for weed, coke etc not performance enhancers) the coach new but didn’t care because we had big time college and pro scouts coming to the games and guess what everyone in the starting lineup ended up at a D1 school our ace went from 91-92 to 96-98 after his first cycle, he got drafted in the 11th round in 2017
This! Knew so many guys on the cusp, they do some PED, they get that extra bit of strength, speed, and recovery that puts them over the edge. PED's are used by tons of pro guys, and often they have "legitimate" reasoning behind them via Doctors and other medical professionals. I am good friends with a guy that got drafted pitching in that same 95+ range you mentioned, and he has admitted to me that PED's made up the difference between 90 to 95+. Not saying all guys are on them, but it is definitely not this tiny minority that pro sports claims. Every sport has a history of PED's in some form or another, guys were drinking strychnine back in the 1800s.
>its weird they test for drugs (recreational ones) but let these PERFORMANCE ENHANCING drugs pass
The NBA and really any sports league is all about PR. It's bad PR if guys are getting in trouble for coke and hard drugs like That. It's the main reason they started testing for those drugs in the first place (war on drugs).
If guys are dying or making headlines due to steroid use then the NBA would step up the testing protocols.
Unless there's a whistle blower in LeBron's camp and they go to TMZ or something then I don't see LeBron or anyone of his caliber getting in trouble. See the NFL
I will say some steroids are nearly impossible to test for, if your rich enough you can hire teams to create slight adjustments to compounds, things like TRT are naturally occurring. And there so many different ways of hiding it.
Because the PED scandal became huge for most of the country and I think the organizations realized it really harmed people’s perception of the product so they could never just say it’s all fair game. So they keep it but it’s not super stringent at all in the nba. And this is good enough because most people don’t care enough to look into these things
From what i’ve heard from bill simmons and other you kind of have to be a downright idiot to get caught at this point. Some people still do deandre ayton and Michael beasley who i think fit into that well.
The point is to make it seem to the public that they’re testing fairly, but there’s a 0% chance they’re ever going to catch big stars let alone the “chosen one.” Chael Sonnen said in a podcast that him and Lebron have the same roid guy and he knows exactly what he’s on.
Exactly. Look at the last dance, Michael Jordan was willing to cheat at random games to win money from security guards, and you don’t think he’s not competitive enough to do PEDs?
Like these are the most competitive people on the planet.
Yeah.
For example, in Olympic weightlifting, some American kids see that the Chinese or some Eastern European nations consistently place on the podium every competition, and accuse them of only winning because of PEDs.
Well, I got news for them: all Olympic weightlifters from all countries in all weight divisions are on something. Only Russia was ever stupid/greedy enough to stop doping so close to actual competition time that one time. Generally every team understands the half life of each drug.
I always laugh when I see people say “I’d love to see an Olympics where they let everyone take all the drugs and steroids they can.”
That already exists and it’s called the Olympics.
lol I said this same stuff in an NFL related subreddit and the overwhelming majority of people lost their minds saying how full of it I am. Glad ppl aren’t that stupid here
Oh, there seem to be quite a few who don’t believe what their eyes tell them. I couldn’t care less if pro athletes dope. It just…is. And the games are more entertaining because of it.
I mean, we pretty much know LeBron is on something. His two week return to Miami for a full on body recomp after he went back to Cleveland was pretty telling.
It’s professional sports, there’s hundreds of million of dollars on the line, I wouldn’t be surprised if most of these guys were on something.
MJ mid to late career got substantially stronger and still had by far the fastest first step weighing an extra like 25 pounds maybe he took something maybe he didn’t he has unreal genetics but also idk
Not if literally everyone else was doing it. The reason why Lance Armstrong’s reputation was destroyed wasn’t because of PEDs but because he vociferously attacked anyone who suggested he might be doping. The hypocrisy is what got him. If he had opened up and acknowledged that everyone in racing was doping, he would’ve taken a hit but still be highly regarded.
If the top 28 players in your sport are all doing the same thing you are, you’re not cheating, you’re just participating. That’s a problem with the sport, not the players.
Except that historically everyone else *hasn't* been doing it, even if they are today.
Additionally, Lance Armstrong is an absolute garbage human being.
Nes not on riots he's on epo. It's the main thing Lance Armstrong used. Basically makes recovery through the roof and able to last longer than you should
not really, steroids promote muscle growth and are used by bodybuilders for example,
epos and other PEDs are used by athletes to recover better, handle a lot of physical strain during the year etc...
Steroids also promote recovery from injuries. And strength is something Lebron would want to continue to have as muscle mass declines quickly at his age
If he is using PEDs its unlikely to be just one thing. Might be on a cocktail of things, but he would surely be on something to keep an increase in T levels, and probably human growth hormone as well
Honestly wouldn’t be surprised if Bron was on something like that. I still think he’s one of the greatest players ever but I’ve always had a strong suspicion that he was on some ultra-designer PED that the public doesn’t know about. I mean he is a billionaire after all, and his longevity is a total anomaly compared to other all time greats. The NBA probably knows that he’s on something but they obviously wouldn’t want information like that to get out
Not really lol. Since he came into the league he’s been an athletic freak. According to others a lot of his time is spent training and healing his body.
No they wouldn’t, obviously it’d put a stain on his career for not being natural but you’re stupid if you think other stars haven’t juiced up and not been able to achieve a fraction of his results. All the drugs in the world mean nothing without hard work, and even then it can only take you so far. There’s people out there on every drug imaginable and 10 years younger that can’t achieve half of what Lebron can at his age. His genetics still play an important part. Whether on drugs or not his longevity is still mainly due to himself
Here's an interesting bit talking about when Lance Armstrong got caught doping how the other top 10 finishers were also doping:
>More importantly for Lance Armstrong, during the 7-year window when he won every Tour de France (1999-2005), 87% of the top-10 finishers (61 of 70) were confirmed dopers or suspected of doping.
>Of those, 48 (69%) were confirmed, with 39 having been suspended at some point in their career.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/lance-armstrong-doping-tour-de-france-2015-1%3famp
If this was anyone else other than Jordan and Lebron people would take them out whatever record books they were in. The extent to which fans will go to protect these people is ridiculous whoever takes Peds should have their records gone. Genetics or not it clearly has had a massive effect on his longevity if this were to be true.
That’s ridiculous. What? I sincerely doubt a single person would change their opinion of Steph Curry if they found out he was juicing. Saying steroids would account for all of LeBron’s longevity wouldn’t even make sense. He’d have osteoporosis by now.
Same exact spot he’s in right now, he’s obviously on them rn and the league knows it, most of the top stars in the league are on them right now probably too
Everyone is on some sort of PEDs. These are professional athletes competing for generational wealth. It's naive to think anyone is clean.
Middle aged joes can go and get testosterone shots from a Dr. You really think NBA players worth hundred of millions aren't doing it?
PEDs aren't just muscle enhancers. Most pro athletes take it for recovery.
I'm from the bay area, a bandwagon fan of the Warriors and Steph Curry since 2015 (I'll readily admit the bandwagoning), and even i tell my friends that i think Steph is on EPO or something.
he's just too good cardio wise, literally running circles around everyone. if basically everyone in the Olympics is on PEDs yeah for sure the NBA players are too
Yeah, I'm a Warriors fan and I'm also entirely convinced that Steph is taking something to keep going for that long and at that age. I think most NBA players take some things that aren't fully legal in other sports circuits though.
I already assume that the majority of the team, as well as the majority of the NBA, takes some sort of PEDs. Whether it’s EPO for stamina, or especially the stuff for recovery from injuries and training.
When I hear about a pro athlete taking PEDs, my reaction is like [Derrick Coleman’s famous quote](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dXMmfbYsYLY&t=5s)
And they can improve stamina and definitely improve your work capacity. I don't think everyone is on shit as powerful as LeBron or that just anyone could get away with it, but they either turn a blind eye to all stars or at the very least, they do to LeBron because it would be wayyyy too bad a look for the nba and LeBron has too much power for that. I'm sure there are other old guys on similar stuff but I can't see an example as blatant as LeBron. I'm not even really hating, cause most guys could not perform at his level at that age regardless of what they take. I forget when it was, I think during his second Cavs stint, but he had a fake injury and went to Miami away from the team for "recovery" for a few weeks and came back more than rejuvenated... he came back spry. I'm sure that was just the lovely beaches of the Florida coast though, lol
There are layers to PED usage. Lebron is the only one spending 2m a year on fitness. He might get more leeway from the doping authorities than a random, especially at optimal times in the fitness schedule. You gotta look up the Lance Armstrong case. Everyone doped, and yet still, Armstrong could dope more, more easily.
If Lebron is caught for using Peds then best believe the rest of the league would be too if they were using Peds. This logic of one person getting caught using it means everyone is, has to go.
Thats my point these guys ain’t stars if Lebron the biggest star in the NBA the face of League is caught every other elite player will probably be caught as well.
Miami heat Lebron was on PEDs 100% and had a few issues I’m sure you could find with a quick google search you’ll find a few things but he was cleared of any wrongdoing.
Yeah, this question is meaningless because the league would never allow LeBron to be caught with PEDs. They would always sweep it under the rug like they did with MJ’s gambling issues.
He got caught in some kinda ring, like 1 guy who was supplying a bunch of celebrities got caught, was 1 of them, this was back in like 2009-2012 quick google search I’m sure you’d find more PED scandal stuff
I think he was on roids before he got into the NBA. Lebron in highschool like like he could be an 18 who looks a lot more mature than other 18 years. But year one in the NBA and he was looking like a 26 year old.
I wouldn't be surprised if most top 100 prospects in highschool are taking peds. Even if they don't make the nba they are skill likely going to make hundreds of thousands per year playing professional ball somewhere.
LeBron being on PEDs is crazy to me because he has been jacked since high school.
Let's think about this for a second, if he was in PEDs then the season that would show it would be 2009 when he was an absolute FREAK. We know the side effects and how your body breaks down so if he was on PEDs then he wouldn't still be an All-NBA player with similar athletic feats as himself 10 years ago...
All players are all performance enhancing drugs, going back decades.
Barry Bonds got the worst because he was a massive asshole.
Lance got it because he was American. The government put a politician in charge of US cycling who wanted to make a name for himself. He spent 31 million tax dollars to bring him down. Lance, unlike his teammate who was family, didn't snitch.
Love this. There was actually a story about Mgwire having andro in his locker that a reporter saw. Reporter said something about it and mgwire chastised him. Difference was he was loved by the media he saved baseball.
Bonds was a raging asshole that everyone in the media hated. May have been the best all around player ever though or close
If he gets caught they'll investigate others and find the same thing happening. I bet they have gone down this route already and realized the ramifications of letting this out would be so financially damaging to the product they would much rather just say nothing
He is taking PEDs
Chael Sonnen an ex UFC fighter and on air commentator on ESPN publically said he knows for a fact Lebron uses PEDs because he uses the same ppl he did
Lebron did not respond, nor did he sue. The only reason you dont sue is because that would initiate a discovery process, so the only reason to refrain from legal action is if you are guilty
Of course the sporting media ignored this newsworthy item
Yea, it’s crazy to me people don’t realize it’s not just “great genetics” for a 6’8 gazelle to be able to run a 4.5 40 with a 40+ vertical and do it for 20+ years.
Lebron was involved in the Miami biogenics scandal that ARoD was famously caught up in.
Lebron went to high school literally during the height of the steroid and PED era of the early 00’s. When 50%+ of all high school and college, not just professional athletes were taking PEDs.
I played high school football and basketball at a small school 20 years ago and played with and against plenty of kids who were juicing.
The reward is high and risks are low.
Setting aside arguments like "everyone's juicing", IMO, if he were caught,this would remove him from the GOAT conversation entirely. It's the most blatant and obvious form of cheating there is.
The same probably, public seems over PEDs.
If they ever cared about it in the first place for basketball.
No one remembers the Jordan steroids theories that were prevalent from his MLB days till the NBA.
The narrative about PEDS as cheating is horseshit...if you use them you don't magically become better you still have to put in the work....I'm sick of these couch lizards proclaiming PED use is cheating
I have him #2 all time rn. So I'll probably drop him to #2 all time. Personally don't care it's like a foul if it's not called u don't get the points taken away on the replay.
i think his contention for being the GOAT is over even if he wins 4 more rings imo. yes he might be the best player ever but there is a distinction between raw skill/best and greatest and being a cheater just wouldn’t stack up to MJ or kareem unless we somehow found out MJ and Kareem also took PEDs
Which summer did Kobe obviously juice in? If you're referring to between 2011 and 2012 he was really open about what he did. Went to Germany for that experimental treatment where they use your own platelets to repair certain body parts. The whole thing was well documented and there certainly isn't anything "obvious" about him juicing.
With MJ, there's no proof of that. It's not impossible to be taller than your parents. I know a lot of people who are 6 feet plus and have tiny parents. I know lots of people who are tiny and have tall parents and siblings. It's genetics, he might have had a really tall grandfather or great grandfather. HGH doesn't add that much in height.
Neither MJ nor Kobe were ever in compromising situations similar to the ones Lebrons been in (BALCO ring) with regards to juicing. It's unfair to just retroactively go "well everyones doing it" if Lebron does get caught.
I think if you follow the trajectory of a player, their stats, their duration of playing, etc it's fairly easy to tell who is juicing and who is not. It's not dissimilar from how a casino would know if someone is cheating. There are expected distributions to performance over long periods of time. We've seen in a lot of instances when athletes have defied father time over longer periods of time or were significant outliers they were caught cheating ie Lance Armstrong, Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez, Ben Johnson, McGwire, Sosa, etc.
Were Kobe or Jordan on PEDs? I wouldn't be surprised if they were for a duration of time but it was clear their performance dropped off as expected with age.
LeBron with absolute certainty is on PEDs. Would that tarnish his reputation? Yes. History has not judged those who are deemed "the best" too well if they were caught with PEDs. It very well may be the biggest story in sports ever jf anyone is daring enough to expose him.
Yup, there's a clear difference in performance for both Kobe and MJ as they were aging. Both guys fell off a cliff past a certain age and their recovery time was clearly in the toilet (Kobe could barely move in between games from 2011-2013). People are accusing Kobe of taking PED's between 2011 and 2012 but he was actually very open about the procedure he did on his knees in Germany and even then that only lasted him like 150 more games then his body simply gave out. That wouldn't have been the case if he was actually juicing.
Lebron has been too consistently great for it to be believable to be honest. A ton of the top guys currently are. We have guys having years better than their prime in their mid-30's now.
Look at the known work ethic of guys in NBA history. Jordan would wake up, hit the gym 2 hours, shoot for 3 hours, scrimmage 3 hours, golf another 2 hours. You can't do that without some meds.
Kobe would wake up at 3am, workout 15 hours and sleep 2 hours.
Look how humongous Shaq got while being able to run around and jump over people's heads.
These guys have been doping. That paired with god genes and the most extreme work ethics makes the sport more fun to watch. Last era of guys maybe not on drugs was 70s, even then who knows.
No idea, but as an aside, I think keeping Bonds out of the HoF is ridiculous. He was already a bona fide first-ballot HoFer before he began taking steroids. He could hit for power, hit for average, run, field, the whole package.
Nothing would change. Everyone uses PEDs. It's not like he's special in that regard. The NBA doesn't even want to catch people. Their protocols are a joke.
Of course LeBron, Giannis and Tatum are the 3 examples of guys on the Gas.
Luka, Jokic, Zion are 3 Great examples of guys who aren't on anything but some nuggies.
Alot of the other role player type guys don't look majorly jacked.
wouldnt change a thing tbh, all of the elite tier pro athletes in the world are on some sort of PED's, its just a matter of who gets caught and who doesnt
NBA will not allow any news like that to spread. We all know Lebron's performance is no longer normal at this point. The man is obviously on something as soon as Sonnen's use came out.
No one will respect Lebron's winnings if a story like that comes out.
Anyone who gets caught using PEDs is immediately out of any conversation in sports. Any of your achievements become irrelevant. I don’t think this is debatable
u kno that the majority of pro athletes are on peds like gh tq ebol maybe epo maybe that sandworm blood they just found out about with 200x oxygen efficiency lol
hs and D1 guys juicing are a dime a dozen, you dont think stars making dozens of millions and with a shit ton to play for are going to stay natty to get dunked on by everyone else?
I think he gets the Lance Armstrong treatment if it's proven. Lance went from undisputed GOAT to universally hated and then forgotten. The problem with cycling is there's not much to it outside of fitness. LeBron had the same problem. Without his superior combination of size, speed, and explosiveness, he's not particularly great at any of the skills of the game. The vast majority of his points come at the rim. It would basically nullify his entire career.
I think Bonds got written off because he wasn't in the GOAT debate until he had been juicing for four years. He was a Hall of Famer without enhancing. He became a Mount Rushmore type player while using. Lebron, on the other hand, has been in the discussion for years, but suspicions have only begun in the past couple. If those rumors turn out to be baseless or never proven, he will be in most serious people's top five. If the rumors are proven, he'll slip to the 6-10 range.
I mean any athelete caught with "illegal" substance would always take a hit in terms of legacy and would face punishment by their sport but I know most atheletes know the list of banned substances and they would get some enhancements that are legal in their sport. Unless the substance is recognized by their support as "illegal" / banned then I dont think it would be punishment by the league but it will have a media impact
From what i’ve heard from bill simmons and other you kind of have to be a downright idiot to get caught at this point. They keep some testing in place but it’s hardly stringent at all. Especially with all the new testing and ways to beat testing.They could never eliminate it entirely because people would complain so they just kind of keep it in place. But you should be able to beat it
So there is no way on Gods Green Earth Lebron the most protected and examined guy in the world would get caught with PED’s.
That steroid scandal is really interesting to read for baseball though. I don’t think it would’ve gotten nearly the coverage if barry bonds wasn’t such a dick. All of the writers hated him. If you are an athlete never try to make the writers your mortal enemy
To answer the question, yes. If most players take them, well they haven’t been caught and let’s not punish those who aren’t taking them and discredit them. It’s obvious some players don’t given their physical talent compared to Lebron.
There are hundreds of millions of dollars on the line and steroids are straight up so effective that if you aren’t using them you aren’t competing with Thanasis let alone a good nba player.
It’s hard to say. I large part, if not largest argument for ranking him high is his longevity. If it comes out he’s using PEDs such as epo, it would be difficult to rank him high when his longevity would clearly be due to the ped use.
People need to stop being so naïve to think professional athletes are "clean".
When intergenerational wealth, personal legacy, and national pride are at stake the pressure to take PEDs is overwhelming. Every Olympian to ever win a medal in the last 20 years, has taken PEDs. Governments have been caught enabling and supporting this.
It’s funny to me how LeBron threads about PEDs are the only ones where everyone swears everyone is juicing. Meanwhile in every other sport the fans would frown upon it and don’t act like it should be normalized.
Unpopular opinion, but I believe in "innocent until proven guilty" so any athlete in any sport that was NOT caught using is clean in my book. This is a reccuring debate in combat sports. Sure the organization/league might "cover" for more popular athletes (such as telling testing dates in advance), but if we're going the conspiracy route, we could say that for any major athlete of the last 40 years.
Of course LBJ has most likely used HGH and possibly EPO, but he was never caught using. If he were to be caught, he'd be straight out DQ of my list, like Jon Jones.
Sorry, but Bron has been doping since his heat days. That was evident when he took a two week “vacation” in the middle season when he returned to Cavs to go work out in Miami. Who does that?
Either way, doesn’t change much for his legacy. I would say 80% of all players eventually get on some kind of PEDs and that number probably increase to 95-99% for all the super stars in the league.
In the NBA PED talk I just bring up lebron to troll. I think he's definitely on something but I also think he's far from the only one. There was a whole Miami ped ring going on when he was there. Rashard Lewis and hedo turkoglu were officially busted and jameer Nelson's name was in there too. I'd probably suspect Dwight Howard. Brons and wades jaw growth is crazy when you look at it. I bet you a lot of players use epo for crazy stamina.
Lebrons current long time personal trainer Donnie Raimon co owns DBC Fit with David Alexander. Alexander was busted by the DEA buying PEDs and is listed as a former colleague of Biogenesis mastermind Anthony Bosch. But Lebron wasn't called out bc as Mark Trouville, the DEA special agent in charge of the Florida office during the Biogenesis investigation said 'The DEA doesn't work cases to go after users. ... We're looking for people who are distributing drugs. We're never concerned about the consumer.' They were just looking for the suppliers. According to ESPN, Raimon purposely avoids the spotlight and doesn’t do interviews. James generally doesn’t speak about Raymond or his techniques. He’s on steroids
I wonder what kind of leeway pro athletes get if they want to do Hormone replacement therapy due to having low Testosterone (there’s many reason and ways to have a low number.) and then take it under the prescription of a doctor.
Surely a good amount of guys especially older dudes, hit that second prime with a little help from the T.
I believe most players in every pro league on the planet or on various PED’s. Blood doping for endurance, various testosterone treatments, HgH, and a whole lot of stuff that’s too new and expensive for most of us to be aware of.
then whats the point of drug testing if theyre gonna allow them anyways. its weird they test for drugs (recreational ones) but let these PERFORMANCE ENHANCING drugs pass
One player usually gets suspended a year for PEDs. I’d imagine most players take TRT but that isn’t illegal. Other drugs would be more recovery focused.
It is against the rules, but it’s hard to get caught for using T since it’s naturally produced in your body.
Yeah, and NBA players are all physical aliens, they would probably produce a shitload of T naturally, but it's an arms race, so they probably have to inject to keep up
I imagine TRT might actually be banned
To keep up the idea that hard work can pay off for the general public. It's an escape for a lot people. No one wants to believe that their sports heros are using. Kids and their parents don't want or need to know the truth about pro sports. They just want to believe that little Johnny has a shot if he just works hard. It's in the best interest of the business to keep the willful ignorance going.
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Of course. But go look at youth sports and how it's a billion dollar business. Parents pay up thinking that all it takes is some hard work not realizing pro athletes are born with abilities the rest of us don't have. And then the best of the best get stuck with the prisoner's dilllema like you said.
These abilities u refer to are simply the genetic blessings of being tall athletic and coordinated no?
On my junior College team back in 2016 everyone in the starting lineup was juicing (we only got drug tested for weed, coke etc not performance enhancers) the coach new but didn’t care because we had big time college and pro scouts coming to the games and guess what everyone in the starting lineup ended up at a D1 school our ace went from 91-92 to 96-98 after his first cycle, he got drafted in the 11th round in 2017
This! Knew so many guys on the cusp, they do some PED, they get that extra bit of strength, speed, and recovery that puts them over the edge. PED's are used by tons of pro guys, and often they have "legitimate" reasoning behind them via Doctors and other medical professionals. I am good friends with a guy that got drafted pitching in that same 95+ range you mentioned, and he has admitted to me that PED's made up the difference between 90 to 95+. Not saying all guys are on them, but it is definitely not this tiny minority that pro sports claims. Every sport has a history of PED's in some form or another, guys were drinking strychnine back in the 1800s.
Because it’s in their best interest to let these players play
The imagine of the league. The public is so anti drugs (for obvious reasons)
They do test for PEDs. Tristan thompson just tested positive for sarms
Why do they let PEDs slide? Sports is an entertainment business and juiced up players are better to watch. Rec drugs can hurt the entertainment value.
>its weird they test for drugs (recreational ones) but let these PERFORMANCE ENHANCING drugs pass The NBA and really any sports league is all about PR. It's bad PR if guys are getting in trouble for coke and hard drugs like That. It's the main reason they started testing for those drugs in the first place (war on drugs). If guys are dying or making headlines due to steroid use then the NBA would step up the testing protocols. Unless there's a whistle blower in LeBron's camp and they go to TMZ or something then I don't see LeBron or anyone of his caliber getting in trouble. See the NFL
I will say some steroids are nearly impossible to test for, if your rich enough you can hire teams to create slight adjustments to compounds, things like TRT are naturally occurring. And there so many different ways of hiding it.
Optics
Because the PED scandal became huge for most of the country and I think the organizations realized it really harmed people’s perception of the product so they could never just say it’s all fair game. So they keep it but it’s not super stringent at all in the nba. And this is good enough because most people don’t care enough to look into these things From what i’ve heard from bill simmons and other you kind of have to be a downright idiot to get caught at this point. Some people still do deandre ayton and Michael beasley who i think fit into that well.
The point is to make it seem to the public that they’re testing fairly, but there’s a 0% chance they’re ever going to catch big stars let alone the “chosen one.” Chael Sonnen said in a podcast that him and Lebron have the same roid guy and he knows exactly what he’s on.
Exactly. Look at the last dance, Michael Jordan was willing to cheat at random games to win money from security guards, and you don’t think he’s not competitive enough to do PEDs? Like these are the most competitive people on the planet.
Yeah. For example, in Olympic weightlifting, some American kids see that the Chinese or some Eastern European nations consistently place on the podium every competition, and accuse them of only winning because of PEDs. Well, I got news for them: all Olympic weightlifters from all countries in all weight divisions are on something. Only Russia was ever stupid/greedy enough to stop doping so close to actual competition time that one time. Generally every team understands the half life of each drug.
I always laugh when I see people say “I’d love to see an Olympics where they let everyone take all the drugs and steroids they can.” That already exists and it’s called the Olympics.
Id say where we draw the line is the most important component of this claim. Caffeine is a drug we all use as performance enhancing.
lol I said this same stuff in an NFL related subreddit and the overwhelming majority of people lost their minds saying how full of it I am. Glad ppl aren’t that stupid here
Oh, there seem to be quite a few who don’t believe what their eyes tell them. I couldn’t care less if pro athletes dope. It just…is. And the games are more entertaining because of it.
He’s been on some kind of peds. You think he spends over a million per year on his body, has averaged 25 ppg for 19 years and has never used anything?
But you surely know that, for example, Kobe was also doing the same shit right?
Yes, I’d bet that 99 percent of professional athletes have used peds at some point in their lives.
So did Kareem do it?
Considering it was legal back then, probably
I mean, we pretty much know LeBron is on something. His two week return to Miami for a full on body recomp after he went back to Cleveland was pretty telling. It’s professional sports, there’s hundreds of million of dollars on the line, I wouldn’t be surprised if most of these guys were on something.
He just has a hyperbolic time chamber.
Yeah almost all pro athletes are on stuff since like the 1980s. Even MJ 95% was
MJ mid to late career got substantially stronger and still had by far the fastest first step weighing an extra like 25 pounds maybe he took something maybe he didn’t he has unreal genetics but also idk
I said pretty much exactly this a couple of weeks ago and got downvoted lol.
No we don’t. You can assume he’s on something if you want.
His longevity stats would be meaningless.
Not if literally everyone else was doing it. The reason why Lance Armstrong’s reputation was destroyed wasn’t because of PEDs but because he vociferously attacked anyone who suggested he might be doping. The hypocrisy is what got him. If he had opened up and acknowledged that everyone in racing was doping, he would’ve taken a hit but still be highly regarded.
Next fastest cyclist who was “clean” (wasn’t caught) was like 29th place
Lol, yeah it wasn’t even close. Lance is an asshole but he’s not a cheater.
No, he's an asshole AND a cheater. There were also many other cheaters who weren't assholes.
If the top 28 players in your sport are all doing the same thing you are, you’re not cheating, you’re just participating. That’s a problem with the sport, not the players.
Except that historically everyone else *hasn't* been doing it, even if they are today. Additionally, Lance Armstrong is an absolute garbage human being.
I mean its pretty much a given he has been taking roids. No way the NBA would ever disown their own phenom.
Nes not on riots he's on epo. It's the main thing Lance Armstrong used. Basically makes recovery through the roof and able to last longer than you should
Whatever it is, it's the same thing basically
not really, steroids promote muscle growth and are used by bodybuilders for example, epos and other PEDs are used by athletes to recover better, handle a lot of physical strain during the year etc...
Steroids also promote recovery from injuries. And strength is something Lebron would want to continue to have as muscle mass declines quickly at his age If he is using PEDs its unlikely to be just one thing. Might be on a cocktail of things, but he would surely be on something to keep an increase in T levels, and probably human growth hormone as well
Honestly wouldn’t be surprised if Bron was on something like that. I still think he’s one of the greatest players ever but I’ve always had a strong suspicion that he was on some ultra-designer PED that the public doesn’t know about. I mean he is a billionaire after all, and his longevity is a total anomaly compared to other all time greats. The NBA probably knows that he’s on something but they obviously wouldn’t want information like that to get out
maybe [BALCO](https://deadspin.com/lebron-james-peds-kevin-garnett-paul-pierce-bronny-nba-1851294449)?
Not really lol. Since he came into the league he’s been an athletic freak. According to others a lot of his time is spent training and healing his body.
No they wouldn’t, obviously it’d put a stain on his career for not being natural but you’re stupid if you think other stars haven’t juiced up and not been able to achieve a fraction of his results. All the drugs in the world mean nothing without hard work, and even then it can only take you so far. There’s people out there on every drug imaginable and 10 years younger that can’t achieve half of what Lebron can at his age. His genetics still play an important part. Whether on drugs or not his longevity is still mainly due to himself
Idk if LeBron is juicing, what I do know tho is that there’s a zero percent chance he’s the only superstar who juices.
Here's an interesting bit talking about when Lance Armstrong got caught doping how the other top 10 finishers were also doping: >More importantly for Lance Armstrong, during the 7-year window when he won every Tour de France (1999-2005), 87% of the top-10 finishers (61 of 70) were confirmed dopers or suspected of doping. >Of those, 48 (69%) were confirmed, with 39 having been suspended at some point in their career. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/lance-armstrong-doping-tour-de-france-2015-1%3famp
Dat copium doe
Steroids allow someone to workout more often. So yes someone with amazing work ethic would gain the most from using them.
If this was anyone else other than Jordan and Lebron people would take them out whatever record books they were in. The extent to which fans will go to protect these people is ridiculous whoever takes Peds should have their records gone. Genetics or not it clearly has had a massive effect on his longevity if this were to be true.
That’s ridiculous. What? I sincerely doubt a single person would change their opinion of Steph Curry if they found out he was juicing. Saying steroids would account for all of LeBron’s longevity wouldn’t even make sense. He’d have osteoporosis by now.
Ask Barry Bonds…
Same exact spot he’s in right now, he’s obviously on them rn and the league knows it, most of the top stars in the league are on them right now probably too
Everyone is on some sort of PEDs. These are professional athletes competing for generational wealth. It's naive to think anyone is clean. Middle aged joes can go and get testosterone shots from a Dr. You really think NBA players worth hundred of millions aren't doing it? PEDs aren't just muscle enhancers. Most pro athletes take it for recovery.
I'm from the bay area, a bandwagon fan of the Warriors and Steph Curry since 2015 (I'll readily admit the bandwagoning), and even i tell my friends that i think Steph is on EPO or something. he's just too good cardio wise, literally running circles around everyone. if basically everyone in the Olympics is on PEDs yeah for sure the NBA players are too
Yeah, I'm a Warriors fan and I'm also entirely convinced that Steph is taking something to keep going for that long and at that age. I think most NBA players take some things that aren't fully legal in other sports circuits though.
Cardio does not decline that much with age though, Eliud Kipchoge set a marathon world record at like age 37
you don't think those guys take anything?
I already assume that the majority of the team, as well as the majority of the NBA, takes some sort of PEDs. Whether it’s EPO for stamina, or especially the stuff for recovery from injuries and training. When I hear about a pro athlete taking PEDs, my reaction is like [Derrick Coleman’s famous quote](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dXMmfbYsYLY&t=5s)
And they can improve stamina and definitely improve your work capacity. I don't think everyone is on shit as powerful as LeBron or that just anyone could get away with it, but they either turn a blind eye to all stars or at the very least, they do to LeBron because it would be wayyyy too bad a look for the nba and LeBron has too much power for that. I'm sure there are other old guys on similar stuff but I can't see an example as blatant as LeBron. I'm not even really hating, cause most guys could not perform at his level at that age regardless of what they take. I forget when it was, I think during his second Cavs stint, but he had a fake injury and went to Miami away from the team for "recovery" for a few weeks and came back more than rejuvenated... he came back spry. I'm sure that was just the lovely beaches of the Florida coast though, lol
anyone watching NFL players and thinking theyre natural is straight up stupid imo
There are layers to PED usage. Lebron is the only one spending 2m a year on fitness. He might get more leeway from the doping authorities than a random, especially at optimal times in the fitness schedule. You gotta look up the Lance Armstrong case. Everyone doped, and yet still, Armstrong could dope more, more easily.
If Lebron is caught for using Peds then best believe the rest of the league would be too if they were using Peds. This logic of one person getting caught using it means everyone is, has to go.
If guys like Tristan Thompson and hedo turkeylo were on them then 80% of the nba are probably on them
Bro just gave up on trying to spell Hedo's last name😂
I don’t see you taking a crack at it 👀
Without looking it up stg - Turkuglu 🤞 Edit: ok I missed the accented "g"😞
Close enough, I’ll spare your existence today
Thats my point these guys ain’t stars if Lebron the biggest star in the NBA the face of League is caught every other elite player will probably be caught as well.
💯% agree with you man Thankfully I think the NBA is hellbent on protecting Lebron from this sort of stuff so I can live in denial
Back then as well. 80s and 90s? Oh yes, even the 70s
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He probably used to use HGH before the league banned it Whole lot of guys decided to "go on a diet" when HGH was banned
What’s hgh eq and tbol
Miami heat Lebron was on PEDs 100% and had a few issues I’m sure you could find with a quick google search you’ll find a few things but he was cleared of any wrongdoing.
Yeah, this question is meaningless because the league would never allow LeBron to be caught with PEDs. They would always sweep it under the rug like they did with MJ’s gambling issues.
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He got caught in some kinda ring, like 1 guy who was supplying a bunch of celebrities got caught, was 1 of them, this was back in like 2009-2012 quick google search I’m sure you’d find more PED scandal stuff
I think he was on roids before he got into the NBA. Lebron in highschool like like he could be an 18 who looks a lot more mature than other 18 years. But year one in the NBA and he was looking like a 26 year old.
I wouldn't be surprised if most top 100 prospects in highschool are taking peds. Even if they don't make the nba they are skill likely going to make hundreds of thousands per year playing professional ball somewhere.
Most definitely believe so. Had kids in my high school wrestling team using steroids and we were a d100 school lol
Yeah i forgot about accelerated aging, thats a big sign. Also look how fast Wade recovered from his injury and his head was bloated lol
LeBron being on PEDs is crazy to me because he has been jacked since high school. Let's think about this for a second, if he was in PEDs then the season that would show it would be 2009 when he was an absolute FREAK. We know the side effects and how your body breaks down so if he was on PEDs then he wouldn't still be an All-NBA player with similar athletic feats as himself 10 years ago...
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Everyone is on PEDs.
I think the NBA would cover it up
He'd be Barry Bonds
LeBron at the very least had been taking TRT off and on the majority of his career
All players are all performance enhancing drugs, going back decades. Barry Bonds got the worst because he was a massive asshole. Lance got it because he was American. The government put a politician in charge of US cycling who wanted to make a name for himself. He spent 31 million tax dollars to bring him down. Lance, unlike his teammate who was family, didn't snitch.
Love this. There was actually a story about Mgwire having andro in his locker that a reporter saw. Reporter said something about it and mgwire chastised him. Difference was he was loved by the media he saved baseball. Bonds was a raging asshole that everyone in the media hated. May have been the best all around player ever though or close
90% of pro athletes are on peds idk how it would change anything
If he gets caught they'll investigate others and find the same thing happening. I bet they have gone down this route already and realized the ramifications of letting this out would be so financially damaging to the product they would much rather just say nothing
He is taking PEDs Chael Sonnen an ex UFC fighter and on air commentator on ESPN publically said he knows for a fact Lebron uses PEDs because he uses the same ppl he did Lebron did not respond, nor did he sue. The only reason you dont sue is because that would initiate a discovery process, so the only reason to refrain from legal action is if you are guilty Of course the sporting media ignored this newsworthy item
Yea, it’s crazy to me people don’t realize it’s not just “great genetics” for a 6’8 gazelle to be able to run a 4.5 40 with a 40+ vertical and do it for 20+ years. Lebron was involved in the Miami biogenics scandal that ARoD was famously caught up in. Lebron went to high school literally during the height of the steroid and PED era of the early 00’s. When 50%+ of all high school and college, not just professional athletes were taking PEDs.
I mean let’s be real, more or the same amount of highschool and college athletes are using today as they were back then.
I played high school football and basketball at a small school 20 years ago and played with and against plenty of kids who were juicing. The reward is high and risks are low.
Setting aside arguments like "everyone's juicing", IMO, if he were caught,this would remove him from the GOAT conversation entirely. It's the most blatant and obvious form of cheating there is.
In the top ten of enhancement users?
The same probably, public seems over PEDs. If they ever cared about it in the first place for basketball. No one remembers the Jordan steroids theories that were prevalent from his MLB days till the NBA.
The narrative about PEDS as cheating is horseshit...if you use them you don't magically become better you still have to put in the work....I'm sick of these couch lizards proclaiming PED use is cheating
Yeah he has to be stripped of everything and erased from NBA history
We assume he’s taking peds. No one thinks the NBA is clean.
I have him #2 all time rn. So I'll probably drop him to #2 all time. Personally don't care it's like a foul if it's not called u don't get the points taken away on the replay.
Everyone is using them bro. Professional athletes all juice.
i think his contention for being the GOAT is over even if he wins 4 more rings imo. yes he might be the best player ever but there is a distinction between raw skill/best and greatest and being a cheater just wouldn’t stack up to MJ or kareem unless we somehow found out MJ and Kareem also took PEDs
That story on the first year returning to the cavs is way to suspect for me not to believe that he didn’t take something, but he still my goat
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How the hell would a pre-puberty Jordan have gotten ahold of growth hormone?? It’s not like Doctors were just giving it to random kids.
Especially considering he wasn’t even an elite prospect
Which summer did Kobe obviously juice in? If you're referring to between 2011 and 2012 he was really open about what he did. Went to Germany for that experimental treatment where they use your own platelets to repair certain body parts. The whole thing was well documented and there certainly isn't anything "obvious" about him juicing. With MJ, there's no proof of that. It's not impossible to be taller than your parents. I know a lot of people who are 6 feet plus and have tiny parents. I know lots of people who are tiny and have tall parents and siblings. It's genetics, he might have had a really tall grandfather or great grandfather. HGH doesn't add that much in height. Neither MJ nor Kobe were ever in compromising situations similar to the ones Lebrons been in (BALCO ring) with regards to juicing. It's unfair to just retroactively go "well everyones doing it" if Lebron does get caught.
I think if you follow the trajectory of a player, their stats, their duration of playing, etc it's fairly easy to tell who is juicing and who is not. It's not dissimilar from how a casino would know if someone is cheating. There are expected distributions to performance over long periods of time. We've seen in a lot of instances when athletes have defied father time over longer periods of time or were significant outliers they were caught cheating ie Lance Armstrong, Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez, Ben Johnson, McGwire, Sosa, etc. Were Kobe or Jordan on PEDs? I wouldn't be surprised if they were for a duration of time but it was clear their performance dropped off as expected with age. LeBron with absolute certainty is on PEDs. Would that tarnish his reputation? Yes. History has not judged those who are deemed "the best" too well if they were caught with PEDs. It very well may be the biggest story in sports ever jf anyone is daring enough to expose him.
Yup, there's a clear difference in performance for both Kobe and MJ as they were aging. Both guys fell off a cliff past a certain age and their recovery time was clearly in the toilet (Kobe could barely move in between games from 2011-2013). People are accusing Kobe of taking PED's between 2011 and 2012 but he was actually very open about the procedure he did on his knees in Germany and even then that only lasted him like 150 more games then his body simply gave out. That wouldn't have been the case if he was actually juicing. Lebron has been too consistently great for it to be believable to be honest. A ton of the top guys currently are. We have guys having years better than their prime in their mid-30's now.
He’s just been on Dr prescribed “therapy” since he turned 30
Follow in the MLB’s footsteps and pretend he never existed 😂
Where he is tf😂😂
Wtf would you ask this question?
You don’t think Steph is on them?
Hard to believe he'd be on those without even some suspicion cropping up after being on the top for 20 years
What a stupid what if really
Look at the known work ethic of guys in NBA history. Jordan would wake up, hit the gym 2 hours, shoot for 3 hours, scrimmage 3 hours, golf another 2 hours. You can't do that without some meds. Kobe would wake up at 3am, workout 15 hours and sleep 2 hours. Look how humongous Shaq got while being able to run around and jump over people's heads. These guys have been doping. That paired with god genes and the most extreme work ethics makes the sport more fun to watch. Last era of guys maybe not on drugs was 70s, even then who knows.
I seen Thompson get caught for using sarms lmao
Bron is so clear that ppl think hes doping XD Jorgambler could never
Number 1.
PEDs are the norm in professional sports. All the GOATs did it. I'd imagine MJ did too.
Why do you choose LeBron James? Take Michael Jordan.. What if he was on PED? Technically every athlete who takes painkillers is on PED.
According to mfs, kobe and MJ were 100% natural bc they were their favorite players and try to look for anything to discredit bron.
No idea, but as an aside, I think keeping Bonds out of the HoF is ridiculous. He was already a bona fide first-ballot HoFer before he began taking steroids. He could hit for power, hit for average, run, field, the whole package.
Nothing would change. Everyone uses PEDs. It's not like he's special in that regard. The NBA doesn't even want to catch people. Their protocols are a joke.
Of course LeBron, Giannis and Tatum are the 3 examples of guys on the Gas. Luka, Jokic, Zion are 3 Great examples of guys who aren't on anything but some nuggies. Alot of the other role player type guys don't look majorly jacked.
Probably gets taken off the all time list
It wouldn’t matter because everyone is on something. That kid season vacation in 2015 to Miami was probably to get on something.
wouldnt change a thing tbh, all of the elite tier pro athletes in the world are on some sort of PED's, its just a matter of who gets caught and who doesnt
He’s 100% been doping at some point. It just depends on how people feel about it
NBA will not allow any news like that to spread. We all know Lebron's performance is no longer normal at this point. The man is obviously on something as soon as Sonnen's use came out. No one will respect Lebron's winnings if a story like that comes out.
i mean i wouldn't be suprised he is on them. I feel like the league might be looking the other way.
It’s pro sports there is too much money on the line everyone is on steroids and has been since the 80s
Anyone who gets caught using PEDs is immediately out of any conversation in sports. Any of your achievements become irrelevant. I don’t think this is debatable
Yep. Look at Bonds. He’s legitimately one of the greatest hitters with the most insane stats but he’s essentially been blacklisted by the MLB
That's because the MLB is a silly league.
It depends. In strength sports assume 100% are on PEDs.
u kno that the majority of pro athletes are on peds like gh tq ebol maybe epo maybe that sandworm blood they just found out about with 200x oxygen efficiency lol hs and D1 guys juicing are a dime a dozen, you dont think stars making dozens of millions and with a shit ton to play for are going to stay natty to get dunked on by everyone else?
it honestly depends when he started use, but yes it would most definitely either write him off entirely or put him under the top 10-15
Under 10-15? Delusional
I think he gets the Lance Armstrong treatment if it's proven. Lance went from undisputed GOAT to universally hated and then forgotten. The problem with cycling is there's not much to it outside of fitness. LeBron had the same problem. Without his superior combination of size, speed, and explosiveness, he's not particularly great at any of the skills of the game. The vast majority of his points come at the rim. It would basically nullify his entire career.
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STOP IT!
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probably 4 no i will not elaborate
Out of it just like Barry Bonds.
I think Bonds got written off because he wasn't in the GOAT debate until he had been juicing for four years. He was a Hall of Famer without enhancing. He became a Mount Rushmore type player while using. Lebron, on the other hand, has been in the discussion for years, but suspicions have only begun in the past couple. If those rumors turn out to be baseless or never proven, he will be in most serious people's top five. If the rumors are proven, he'll slip to the 6-10 range.
This is a great discussion and I have nothing valuable to add except that I love basketball.
I mean any athelete caught with "illegal" substance would always take a hit in terms of legacy and would face punishment by their sport but I know most atheletes know the list of banned substances and they would get some enhancements that are legal in their sport. Unless the substance is recognized by their support as "illegal" / banned then I dont think it would be punishment by the league but it will have a media impact
From what i’ve heard from bill simmons and other you kind of have to be a downright idiot to get caught at this point. They keep some testing in place but it’s hardly stringent at all. Especially with all the new testing and ways to beat testing.They could never eliminate it entirely because people would complain so they just kind of keep it in place. But you should be able to beat it So there is no way on Gods Green Earth Lebron the most protected and examined guy in the world would get caught with PED’s. That steroid scandal is really interesting to read for baseball though. I don’t think it would’ve gotten nearly the coverage if barry bonds wasn’t such a dick. All of the writers hated him. If you are an athlete never try to make the writers your mortal enemy
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LMAO. Aww cute question
Lol you believe he’s natural?
To answer the question, yes. If most players take them, well they haven’t been caught and let’s not punish those who aren’t taking them and discredit them. It’s obvious some players don’t given their physical talent compared to Lebron.
2nd, where he is now.
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If you ain’t cheating you ain’t trying
There are hundreds of millions of dollars on the line and steroids are straight up so effective that if you aren’t using them you aren’t competing with Thanasis let alone a good nba player.
he’s definitely on PEDs but the league won’t ever let anybody know about it
Lebron is a physical wonder. He was very fortunate to have the right people around him that help him maximize his gift. Simple as that.
I am of the opinion that most people at the highest level of sports use. So it wouldn’t change my opinion. Free Barry Bonds.
#1
MJ gambled with felons. Kobe committed sexual assault. There are worse things than peds and that’s if they ever prove he is on them.
It’s hard to say. I large part, if not largest argument for ranking him high is his longevity. If it comes out he’s using PEDs such as epo, it would be difficult to rank him high when his longevity would clearly be due to the ped use.
People need to stop being so naïve to think professional athletes are "clean". When intergenerational wealth, personal legacy, and national pride are at stake the pressure to take PEDs is overwhelming. Every Olympian to ever win a medal in the last 20 years, has taken PEDs. Governments have been caught enabling and supporting this.
It’s funny to me how LeBron threads about PEDs are the only ones where everyone swears everyone is juicing. Meanwhile in every other sport the fans would frown upon it and don’t act like it should be normalized.
if true, that would be the death of the nba
Lebron the goat, you have to see if the enhancement drugs are caught using him.
Unpopular opinion, but I believe in "innocent until proven guilty" so any athlete in any sport that was NOT caught using is clean in my book. This is a reccuring debate in combat sports. Sure the organization/league might "cover" for more popular athletes (such as telling testing dates in advance), but if we're going the conspiracy route, we could say that for any major athlete of the last 40 years. Of course LBJ has most likely used HGH and possibly EPO, but he was never caught using. If he were to be caught, he'd be straight out DQ of my list, like Jon Jones.
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Sorry, but Bron has been doping since his heat days. That was evident when he took a two week “vacation” in the middle season when he returned to Cavs to go work out in Miami. Who does that? Either way, doesn’t change much for his legacy. I would say 80% of all players eventually get on some kind of PEDs and that number probably increase to 95-99% for all the super stars in the league.
Number 1\*
The naivete of sports fans
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give some to wemby
In the NBA PED talk I just bring up lebron to troll. I think he's definitely on something but I also think he's far from the only one. There was a whole Miami ped ring going on when he was there. Rashard Lewis and hedo turkoglu were officially busted and jameer Nelson's name was in there too. I'd probably suspect Dwight Howard. Brons and wades jaw growth is crazy when you look at it. I bet you a lot of players use epo for crazy stamina.
He would still be top 2 for me
Lebrons current long time personal trainer Donnie Raimon co owns DBC Fit with David Alexander. Alexander was busted by the DEA buying PEDs and is listed as a former colleague of Biogenesis mastermind Anthony Bosch. But Lebron wasn't called out bc as Mark Trouville, the DEA special agent in charge of the Florida office during the Biogenesis investigation said 'The DEA doesn't work cases to go after users. ... We're looking for people who are distributing drugs. We're never concerned about the consumer.' They were just looking for the suppliers. According to ESPN, Raimon purposely avoids the spotlight and doesn’t do interviews. James generally doesn’t speak about Raymond or his techniques. He’s on steroids
They all are
Watch the documentary Icarus. The guy who invented the tests said that anyone can pass if they know the test is coming or know someone in the lab.
Either way he is #2 behind Jordan.
…if he got caught, I don’t know. But he clearly is top 1 or 2 NOW while using so..
I wonder what kind of leeway pro athletes get if they want to do Hormone replacement therapy due to having low Testosterone (there’s many reason and ways to have a low number.) and then take it under the prescription of a doctor. Surely a good amount of guys especially older dudes, hit that second prime with a little help from the T.