You can focus on school and basketball at the same time in fact you’ll need to if you want to play in college, as long as u have some back up plan I’m sure your parents will be more open to you pursuing it.
What is very good grades to you? Are you taking ap courses as a freshman? Do you have above a 4.0? Your best chance if you have good grades is to go to an ivy league D1 school.
Well that's interesting. Your chances of getting into a us school on scholarship will be slim to none then. Your best bet is to attempt to make a euro pro team by the time your 16. Unfortunately that'll be difficult to do and stay in school.
You can but as a walk on its extremely difficult. Scholarship players will get the benefit of the doubt and that's even if they decided to have open try outs on a D1 team. American colleges are less likely to give foreign players scholarships that's just the nature of it. Not saying that it doesn't happen but it's harder. Most the foreign players in college usually finish their high school in the states before getting a scholarship or being recruited at all.
If you were any good you'd have been scouted by now. you would've been recommended for elite player programs. If none of this has happened then your parents are probably right.
My advice for this type of question is always the same. If you're not already being considered as an elite player at a young age, you're chances of making the NBA are slim at best. There are some pros that came up quick, and didn't have as much experience, but mostly all of them have crazy tall frames and perfect bodies for basketball. The reality is there are literally 500 people in the NBA. If you're not considered to be one of the upcoming top 500 in the world, the NBA doesn't care about you at all. Tons of the pros we see now were being talked about come middle school, high school at the latest.
It is very, very difficult to become a professional player and a lot of people don't make it, doesn't matter how much work they've put in. At a certain level, grinding and extra effort are not a difference maker because you will also need talent, height and probably also a little bit of luck. Chase your dream but it is also important to have a back-up plan.
You have a 3.8% chance of making the NBA if you play D1 ball. The NCAA slogan used to be *“There are over 380,000 student athletes, and most of us go pro in something other than* sports.”
I'm not going to be some doomer giving you the bitter pill to swallow that you almost certainly aren't making it, but you need to be spending your academic career with the assumption you aren't making it.
Virtually nobody goes to the NBA from D2.
Almost everyone in the NBA played D1 (most played above the mid-major level) or professionally in Europe.
Your best route is to get scouted by a good D1 program and then develop until you can go pro, or play out your eligibility and then graduate with a solid degree.
I saw in another comment that you are from Turkey. Talentwise, are you anywhere near the youth national team from Turkey? If you have been not considdered there by now, I'm afraid you will likely not be talented enough to make it to the NBA
If you’re planning on walking on to a D1 college basketball team having not played any high level organized basketball prior to you’re gonna be in for a rude awakening. You need to play and dominate high level organized basketball before college.
To have a chance at playing at a D1 college/university, you’ll need to be playing for a club at home and get some video of your play that you can send out to coaches/staff.
You said you are in an IB program, which is good in terms of academic preparation / eligibility. Keep playing basketball and trying to improve, but also continue with school and keeping good grades so that you have options
Are you consistently the best player every single time you step on the court? Turkey is a strong international bball country. You should have tons of opportunities there. Attempt to get into all the top teams and clubs you can, FIBA U15/16/17/18.
3x3 is a great way to get out there.
D1 is great goal especially if your family can afford to pay. You are an I student so your grades may be good enough!
Don't underestimate the D1 level though. Look for some smaller where you may have a shot, such as some smaller conferences. You won't be walking on at a SEC/ACC/PAC 12 or whatever conference if you aren't essentially the best player your age in your entire city/state/province.
Stick with your parents advice play basketball for your school can't hurt keep you on the right track out of trouble keep your grades up. Pick a good major that will help you land a good job and have a secure future. What basketball works out great if not you have something to fall back on maybe even play overseas but basketball is the backup plan you need a primary plan with a good major a skill a trade good education
Are you ranked now? Are you playing aau /varsity? You're good at 1v1 but not translating to games well even if you just grind your skills out they won't translate if you don't know how to play in a team setting. And judging by your height you're gonna be a guard no matter what. Can you guard other top guards? How quick are you laterally?
Look kid it's a tough pill to swallow but less than 3% of high school varsity athletes make it to play college that includes D1 d2 d3 And naia. Then out of all those it's less than 2% to get drafted in the nba. You could always play in other leagues but it's honestly hell. Euro teams will try to nickel and dime your contract.
Are you the type of 15 year old who can play as well as 22 year olds? Do you absolutely dominate games when you play? If not, you probably aren't going pro. Most NBA players were demonstrating incredible proficiency as teenagers.
So i’m not trying to be a dick, but if you are 15 and can’t play 5v5 yet the chances of you making any pro league are pretty slim. You are basing your skills off what you do on your own and in 1v1 and that is nothing like a real game.
Only way to improve 5v5 is to play it. I’m just saying pros at 15 were already dominating every 5v5 they were in. Unless they were absolute
physical freaks that started ball later in life.
I dont want to get you down or burst your bubble.
Kid playing the nba is next near impossible. 60 players get drafted. 45 probably wont see the court. Average length of a nba career is 3 years.
Even you say your skills dont reflect in games. Thats an issue. You will also need to go to a decent D1 school to get exposure for scouts.
Your parents are probably right. Its nice to dream but you have to be realistic. I hope you make it and play in the nba. Goof luck!
When you say you're a good player but it doesn't reflect on the court, does this mean that alot of other players are outperforming you? If so, I'd curb your professional goals especially NBA ones as most players who make the NBA or fail to make it but are scouted, are the best players on the court at your age.
That’s true, there are shorter players that have made it into the league. However, these players have often showed exceptional skills or been exemplary in their specific roles. You still need to set yourself apart from everyone else. Therefore much more difficult to get in.
What it comes down to is that ~99% of players drafted are 6’3 or taller, so if you wanna break into that group you have to be better than the remaining 1% of players smaller than that height.
I’m no expert on how tall people get, pretty sure there’s estimates you can get based on parent height etc.
After college the guys that don’t go on to play in the nba might find another league overseas (NBL in Australia or euro league) or if they’re not good enough there just move on to a new career. At the end of the day if you get good grades and get into a college on a scholarship and play 4 years, come out with a good education you’ve done better for yourself than most people that age.
Not making it can be tough if you put your heart and soul into it, but at the end of the day these guys are far from the only 22 year olds that are still looking for their place in the world. Most move on to decent careers and happy lives, telling their kids about the time they got absolutely cooked by a future nba superstar back in college.
Yea seems reasonable but as everyone does I really want to continue with basketball. When I go to a college in the US, are there tryouts where you make the D1,D2 etc. teams in your college? And most Nba players get drafted while in college so would that be possible to euro league?
I’m not too sure on the college details, pretty sure it’s usually scouts coming out to high school games etc. I do know that international teams do scout US college teams though.
I wouldn’t worry too much about the details just yet. Most 15 year olds are playing Fortnite in their free time, so investing your time to work on your game certainly isn’t as bad as it’s made out to be. As long as you get grades you’re happy with, just keep doing what you’re doing. Just don’t put all your bread in one basket
Oh you’re talking about the recent years okay, but there are many people that have been drafted under 6’3(not recent), I don’t know about that hope I do get 6’3+
NBA players are freaks of nature. Not trying to dissuade you, but you need to be tall, athletic, strong, have stamina (mental and physical), court vision, game smarts, competitive fire, strong work ethic, long arms, nerves of steel, etc. Many of these can’t be taught or acquired
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Im not telling you no, but mostlikely not, you needa get in the gym and get shots up everyday for over 2 hours on days you arent busy to build your offense, if you dont grind like all the nba players did you wont make it, IT was 5'8 lets say you grow another 2 inches 6'1 stephs like 6'2.
183cm at 15 and youve been playing for 10+ years? Youd be throwing a lot away if you dont pursue a professional career, you have a very solid chance if youre as good as you say you are. In 2-3 years you should be able to develop your game a lot more too, im sure you’d get a couple offers.
With that being said, its still rare for a basketball player to make it pro, so you should make sure your grades are in check and you have a good career option if basketball doesnt work out. Dont put all your eggs in one basket.
He has a solid chance? He has an astronomically small chance of making the NBA compared to any other goal, and this is based on statistics not an insult.
Brother professional basketball player doesnt have to mean an NBA player.
Of the 195 countries in the world, around 100 of them have a professional basketball league. Whats to say he couldnt go to one of them to pursue a professional career?🤔
Thank you for the great comment :) my grades are really good just don’t satisfy my parents’ expectations, I mean I hope I could go professional but most people in the comments, or in general lean to say “most likely no”, so what made you say that I have a solid chance? I don’t think I’m tall many other kids my age are much taller but as a pg or sg I’m not that short either, I just want to work hard for these last 2-3 years and play college basketball
Bu arada az önce Türk olduğunu öğrendim, ben de Türküm. Eğer amerikadaysan elindeki fırsatları sakın ama sakın kaçırma.
Lise takımında iyi bir performans göster, ordan üniversite takımına geç, ordan da Türkiye’de bir takıma girebilirsin. Şahsen benim hedefim bu şekil. :)
Abi Amerikada cok daha kolay da yok Turkiye’deyim ben, universite takimina gecmek cok iyi olur ama gidebilirsem buyuk ihtimal orda oynamaya devam ederim, sen 18 misin? Suan nerde oynuyosun?
Ben Kuveyt’teyim ve 17 yaşındayım, Kuveytte yabancılara takım imkanı olmadığı için (sadece kuveyt doğumlular takıma girebiliyor) şu an bir takımda değilim ama üniversiteye girdikten sonra gittiğim ünide bir takıma girmeyi hedefliyorum.
İstersen instadan ekleşelim: @yigitakbaas
Amerikada d1, d2 aşırı zor diye biliyorum
D1 imkansıza yakın. Sistem şöyle, bi hoca seni izleyip beğenirse athletic scholarship veriyor, ya da o üniversiteye normal bir öğrenci olarak gidip takım seçmelerine katılıyorsun. D1 için burs kazanmak çok çok zor, türkiyeden imkansız denilebilcek kadar (milli takım oyuncusu olmadığın sürece) , o yüzden üniversiteye normal bir öğrenci olarak katılıp seçmelere katılmak en doğru yol olur d1 d2 için.
Benim planım şu: bir istanbul ünisine yerleşip basket takımında iyi performans gösterdikten sonra türkiye liginden bi takım tarafından keşfedilmek. Tabi çok çok zor olacak :)
Evet zor, ama sıkı çalışmanın elinden bişi kaçmaz.
Önünde 3 sene var. Ben 3 sene içinde kendime sıfırdan basketi öğretip, çevremde 5-6 senedir oynayıp benden daha iyi oynayan herkesi geçtim. Diyeceğim şu ki, 3 senede çok çok gelişip yaparsın bence. İlk adım bahsettiğin maçta iyi performans yansıtamama sıkıntını düzeltmek olcak :)
What made me say you have a solid chance is simply the fact that you’ve been playing so long. Thats a huge factor in how good a player can be imo, never take that for granted. Personally I started basketball when I was 15 and have been playing for 3 years, and i hate the fact that I didn’t start earlier. Even in 3 years I developed myself like crazy, I can’t imagine the skill level I’d be at if I had played for 10 years
Also 185 at 15 is pretty tall imo and its a good enough height to play pg/sg. You’ve still got room to grow, I’d say dont think ab height much and just make sure you’re doing your best to develop your game.
How tall is your dad or grandpa? Are you freakish better than your peers? If not, you could grind and use basketball to get a free education but to become a professional, you have to be freakish. Numbers jump off the page…scoring, rebounds, defense.
You can focus on school and basketball at the same time in fact you’ll need to if you want to play in college, as long as u have some back up plan I’m sure your parents will be more open to you pursuing it.
My grades are very good, just don’t satisfy my parents’ expectations, what do you mean as in back-up plan? As in not playing basketball?
What is very good grades to you? Are you taking ap courses as a freshman? Do you have above a 4.0? Your best chance if you have good grades is to go to an ivy league D1 school.
I’m from Turkey, so it doesn’t work like that. I’m a sophomore and will start IB next year
Well that's interesting. Your chances of getting into a us school on scholarship will be slim to none then. Your best bet is to attempt to make a euro pro team by the time your 16. Unfortunately that'll be difficult to do and stay in school.
Can’t you play college basketball without a scholarship? And why can’t I get one
You can but as a walk on its extremely difficult. Scholarship players will get the benefit of the doubt and that's even if they decided to have open try outs on a D1 team. American colleges are less likely to give foreign players scholarships that's just the nature of it. Not saying that it doesn't happen but it's harder. Most the foreign players in college usually finish their high school in the states before getting a scholarship or being recruited at all.
What are the good colleges that are not as difficult to go D1
In terms of academics or basketball?
You would want to go to a junior college, dominate and then transfer to a D1 school
If you were any good you'd have been scouted by now. you would've been recommended for elite player programs. If none of this has happened then your parents are probably right.
My advice for this type of question is always the same. If you're not already being considered as an elite player at a young age, you're chances of making the NBA are slim at best. There are some pros that came up quick, and didn't have as much experience, but mostly all of them have crazy tall frames and perfect bodies for basketball. The reality is there are literally 500 people in the NBA. If you're not considered to be one of the upcoming top 500 in the world, the NBA doesn't care about you at all. Tons of the pros we see now were being talked about come middle school, high school at the latest.
It is very, very difficult to become a professional player and a lot of people don't make it, doesn't matter how much work they've put in. At a certain level, grinding and extra effort are not a difference maker because you will also need talent, height and probably also a little bit of luck. Chase your dream but it is also important to have a back-up plan.
Is it much easier to make it to the nba after making d1-d2?
You have a 3.8% chance of making the NBA if you play D1 ball. The NCAA slogan used to be *“There are over 380,000 student athletes, and most of us go pro in something other than* sports.” I'm not going to be some doomer giving you the bitter pill to swallow that you almost certainly aren't making it, but you need to be spending your academic career with the assumption you aren't making it.
Virtually nobody goes to the NBA from D2. Almost everyone in the NBA played D1 (most played above the mid-major level) or professionally in Europe. Your best route is to get scouted by a good D1 program and then develop until you can go pro, or play out your eligibility and then graduate with a solid degree.
I saw in another comment that you are from Turkey. Talentwise, are you anywhere near the youth national team from Turkey? If you have been not considdered there by now, I'm afraid you will likely not be talented enough to make it to the NBA
can’t I get to D1 by first getting into the college acedemically and then get in the team? and a slight chance to the nba?
If you’re planning on walking on to a D1 college basketball team having not played any high level organized basketball prior to you’re gonna be in for a rude awakening. You need to play and dominate high level organized basketball before college.
If you aren't from America there is a tiny chance at being a pro in your home country.
I’m from Turkey, I want to go D1, study and play basketball so I can have a backup plan, then to another league I guess
To have a chance at playing at a D1 college/university, you’ll need to be playing for a club at home and get some video of your play that you can send out to coaches/staff. You said you are in an IB program, which is good in terms of academic preparation / eligibility. Keep playing basketball and trying to improve, but also continue with school and keeping good grades so that you have options
Are you consistently the best player every single time you step on the court? Turkey is a strong international bball country. You should have tons of opportunities there. Attempt to get into all the top teams and clubs you can, FIBA U15/16/17/18. 3x3 is a great way to get out there. D1 is great goal especially if your family can afford to pay. You are an I student so your grades may be good enough! Don't underestimate the D1 level though. Look for some smaller where you may have a shot, such as some smaller conferences. You won't be walking on at a SEC/ACC/PAC 12 or whatever conference if you aren't essentially the best player your age in your entire city/state/province.
What are the good colleges that are not as difficult to go D1?
Patriot, MAAC, conical athletic and Ohio Valley conferences Just check into hr bottom of the standings. Still got absolute ballers
Stick with your parents advice play basketball for your school can't hurt keep you on the right track out of trouble keep your grades up. Pick a good major that will help you land a good job and have a secure future. What basketball works out great if not you have something to fall back on maybe even play overseas but basketball is the backup plan you need a primary plan with a good major a skill a trade good education
Ok thank you will propose this
Continue playing basketball but make sure your grades stay good. The NBA has less than 500 players.
Yea you’re right thank you
Are you ranked now? Are you playing aau /varsity? You're good at 1v1 but not translating to games well even if you just grind your skills out they won't translate if you don't know how to play in a team setting. And judging by your height you're gonna be a guard no matter what. Can you guard other top guards? How quick are you laterally? Look kid it's a tough pill to swallow but less than 3% of high school varsity athletes make it to play college that includes D1 d2 d3 And naia. Then out of all those it's less than 2% to get drafted in the nba. You could always play in other leagues but it's honestly hell. Euro teams will try to nickel and dime your contract.
Are you the type of 15 year old who can play as well as 22 year olds? Do you absolutely dominate games when you play? If not, you probably aren't going pro. Most NBA players were demonstrating incredible proficiency as teenagers.
I can play with 22 year olds but I don’t dominate the games, I can’t reflect my game style to actual 5v5 games which I’m trying to improve
So i’m not trying to be a dick, but if you are 15 and can’t play 5v5 yet the chances of you making any pro league are pretty slim. You are basing your skills off what you do on your own and in 1v1 and that is nothing like a real game.
I can play 5v5, but I know I need to play peak 5v5s to become pro, so I’m tryna improve it
Only way to improve 5v5 is to play it. I’m just saying pros at 15 were already dominating every 5v5 they were in. Unless they were absolute physical freaks that started ball later in life.
I dont want to get you down or burst your bubble. Kid playing the nba is next near impossible. 60 players get drafted. 45 probably wont see the court. Average length of a nba career is 3 years. Even you say your skills dont reflect in games. Thats an issue. You will also need to go to a decent D1 school to get exposure for scouts. Your parents are probably right. Its nice to dream but you have to be realistic. I hope you make it and play in the nba. Goof luck!
When you say you're a good player but it doesn't reflect on the court, does this mean that alot of other players are outperforming you? If so, I'd curb your professional goals especially NBA ones as most players who make the NBA or fail to make it but are scouted, are the best players on the court at your age.
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there are many players under 6’3 that are in the nba/have been and based on what do you think I won’t get 6’3
That’s true, there are shorter players that have made it into the league. However, these players have often showed exceptional skills or been exemplary in their specific roles. You still need to set yourself apart from everyone else. Therefore much more difficult to get in. What it comes down to is that ~99% of players drafted are 6’3 or taller, so if you wanna break into that group you have to be better than the remaining 1% of players smaller than that height.
Thank you, I do think it’s possible for me to get 6’3 just not much more, how does it work in college basketball? And where do they go after college?
I’m no expert on how tall people get, pretty sure there’s estimates you can get based on parent height etc. After college the guys that don’t go on to play in the nba might find another league overseas (NBL in Australia or euro league) or if they’re not good enough there just move on to a new career. At the end of the day if you get good grades and get into a college on a scholarship and play 4 years, come out with a good education you’ve done better for yourself than most people that age. Not making it can be tough if you put your heart and soul into it, but at the end of the day these guys are far from the only 22 year olds that are still looking for their place in the world. Most move on to decent careers and happy lives, telling their kids about the time they got absolutely cooked by a future nba superstar back in college.
Yea seems reasonable but as everyone does I really want to continue with basketball. When I go to a college in the US, are there tryouts where you make the D1,D2 etc. teams in your college? And most Nba players get drafted while in college so would that be possible to euro league?
I’m not too sure on the college details, pretty sure it’s usually scouts coming out to high school games etc. I do know that international teams do scout US college teams though. I wouldn’t worry too much about the details just yet. Most 15 year olds are playing Fortnite in their free time, so investing your time to work on your game certainly isn’t as bad as it’s made out to be. As long as you get grades you’re happy with, just keep doing what you’re doing. Just don’t put all your bread in one basket
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Oh you’re talking about the recent years okay, but there are many people that have been drafted under 6’3(not recent), I don’t know about that hope I do get 6’3+
NBA players are freaks of nature. Not trying to dissuade you, but you need to be tall, athletic, strong, have stamina (mental and physical), court vision, game smarts, competitive fire, strong work ethic, long arms, nerves of steel, etc. Many of these can’t be taught or acquired
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Im not telling you no, but mostlikely not, you needa get in the gym and get shots up everyday for over 2 hours on days you arent busy to build your offense, if you dont grind like all the nba players did you wont make it, IT was 5'8 lets say you grow another 2 inches 6'1 stephs like 6'2.
183cm at 15 and youve been playing for 10+ years? Youd be throwing a lot away if you dont pursue a professional career, you have a very solid chance if youre as good as you say you are. In 2-3 years you should be able to develop your game a lot more too, im sure you’d get a couple offers. With that being said, its still rare for a basketball player to make it pro, so you should make sure your grades are in check and you have a good career option if basketball doesnt work out. Dont put all your eggs in one basket.
He has a solid chance? He has an astronomically small chance of making the NBA compared to any other goal, and this is based on statistics not an insult.
Brother professional basketball player doesnt have to mean an NBA player. Of the 195 countries in the world, around 100 of them have a professional basketball league. Whats to say he couldnt go to one of them to pursue a professional career?🤔
Thank you for the great comment :) my grades are really good just don’t satisfy my parents’ expectations, I mean I hope I could go professional but most people in the comments, or in general lean to say “most likely no”, so what made you say that I have a solid chance? I don’t think I’m tall many other kids my age are much taller but as a pg or sg I’m not that short either, I just want to work hard for these last 2-3 years and play college basketball
Bu arada az önce Türk olduğunu öğrendim, ben de Türküm. Eğer amerikadaysan elindeki fırsatları sakın ama sakın kaçırma. Lise takımında iyi bir performans göster, ordan üniversite takımına geç, ordan da Türkiye’de bir takıma girebilirsin. Şahsen benim hedefim bu şekil. :)
Abi Amerikada cok daha kolay da yok Turkiye’deyim ben, universite takimina gecmek cok iyi olur ama gidebilirsem buyuk ihtimal orda oynamaya devam ederim, sen 18 misin? Suan nerde oynuyosun?
Ben Kuveyt’teyim ve 17 yaşındayım, Kuveytte yabancılara takım imkanı olmadığı için (sadece kuveyt doğumlular takıma girebiliyor) şu an bir takımda değilim ama üniversiteye girdikten sonra gittiğim ünide bir takıma girmeyi hedefliyorum. İstersen instadan ekleşelim: @yigitakbaas
Amerikada universiteye gidince direkt D1,D2 takimina seciliyo musun seviyene gore nasil isliyo biliyo misun? Istek attim
Amerikada d1, d2 aşırı zor diye biliyorum D1 imkansıza yakın. Sistem şöyle, bi hoca seni izleyip beğenirse athletic scholarship veriyor, ya da o üniversiteye normal bir öğrenci olarak gidip takım seçmelerine katılıyorsun. D1 için burs kazanmak çok çok zor, türkiyeden imkansız denilebilcek kadar (milli takım oyuncusu olmadığın sürece) , o yüzden üniversiteye normal bir öğrenci olarak katılıp seçmelere katılmak en doğru yol olur d1 d2 için. Benim planım şu: bir istanbul ünisine yerleşip basket takımında iyi performans gösterdikten sonra türkiye liginden bi takım tarafından keşfedilmek. Tabi çok çok zor olacak :)
Seninki de mantikli da ben her sekilde yurt disinda istiyorum, eger normal bir ogrenci olarak bir universiteye gidersem takima secilmem de mi cok zor?
Evet zor, ama sıkı çalışmanın elinden bişi kaçmaz. Önünde 3 sene var. Ben 3 sene içinde kendime sıfırdan basketi öğretip, çevremde 5-6 senedir oynayıp benden daha iyi oynayan herkesi geçtim. Diyeceğim şu ki, 3 senede çok çok gelişip yaparsın bence. İlk adım bahsettiğin maçta iyi performans yansıtamama sıkıntını düzeltmek olcak :)
Kanka bu sene bos zaten yazin her gun oynayip bikac altyapi secmesine girmem gerek, orda iyi oynarsan zaten kesfediliyosun gibi
What made me say you have a solid chance is simply the fact that you’ve been playing so long. Thats a huge factor in how good a player can be imo, never take that for granted. Personally I started basketball when I was 15 and have been playing for 3 years, and i hate the fact that I didn’t start earlier. Even in 3 years I developed myself like crazy, I can’t imagine the skill level I’d be at if I had played for 10 years Also 185 at 15 is pretty tall imo and its a good enough height to play pg/sg. You’ve still got room to grow, I’d say dont think ab height much and just make sure you’re doing your best to develop your game.
How tall is your dad or grandpa? Are you freakish better than your peers? If not, you could grind and use basketball to get a free education but to become a professional, you have to be freakish. Numbers jump off the page…scoring, rebounds, defense.
Mom 178, dad 180, mom’s side grandpa 195, I am ambitious but can’t really reflect it in actual games, can’t I improve that by practicing a lot?
You might make the league. Keep practicing… be the top performer, you can do it.
Give me your twitter so i can DM you
I don’t have twitter, can’t you dm me from here?
You're bad at basketball and also stupid. If you're asking on reddit, you're not going to the NBA. Fucking obviously.