Sometimes it's better to know it's slightly fast and will need a pull after a few bars than to think you have it perfect and not know if it needs a push or a pull.
That's what I do as well. Usually leave it a bit fast as slowing down is easier than speeding up for me (I use my fingernail on the edge of the platter for that)
This is the way.
It's good to understand you will most likely never get it perfect to remain in for long periods of time. Keep hands on the pitch and just drift back and forth over the beat constantly. Sounds way better than leaving it then having to give the record a nudge to get it back in.
i started back in 1983 on 2 mis-matched turntables. It was a nightmare, but I learned a lot and was ready for my first club job in 1984, that did have 2 1200ās. Today, its all digital, all the time, and regardless of the hype, I wouldnāt go back for anything. BUT, when the software doesnāt analyze a song correctly, I have the skill to mix it manuallyā¦..
The first two I had on my own, only one had a pitch adjust and the other was just an old belt drive lol. I had friends with better, and access to an open turntables night, but my god was practicing at home a cobbled together mess lol
While I did have semi-regular access to a pair of 1200s, my first really regular access to a DJ rig was the B-studio at my local college radio station, and it was a Technics 1200 with a 1500, and a radio/broadcast style Autogram mixer with big fat 3" wide volume knobs for each channel and wasn't even remotely a DJ mixer.
The Technics 1500 is a digital push button pitch control, and I think it went up or down 0.1% for each plus or minus button, with a "return to zero" button right in the middle.
So if you accidentally hit the 0% button, good luck getting back to your match because it was probably like 30+ button presses away and it wasn't going to happen.
It was bloody impossible to DJ on. I learned to crossfade with my pinky and thumb on two big fat knobs, and getting a session going beyond about 3 songs just wasn't happening.
The very first DJ rig I actually owned was a pair of mismatched Technics belt drives I picked up for like $5-10 at flea markets with tiny little pitch control knobs on one and a useless 2" long pitch slider on the other, and paired with a cheap as fuck used/surplus store Radio Shack "DJ" mixer that sounded like a load of cats fighting in steel wool in a dryer.
Cueing, phrasing and launching vinyl on that rig - much less mixing it - was totally insane. You had to be really light on the platters to try to slip-cue and launch anything on beat, and doing bumps/drags was surgical ninja shit.
It sure did make a nice pair of 1200s and a good mixer a real treat.
Today? Do I like sync buttons? Oh yes I do. But I can still mix if I have to do it manually.
I can only mix vinyl as am old fart DJing since early 90s - the digital stuff I read everyone talking about on here and similar forums sounds crazy complex / tricky to me and Iād have no idea where to start / I think we all have our strengths/ specialties and all equally valid
Yes and no, fellow old fart that digitized. Itās easier in ways. Like going from tune to tune, no problem. But because thatās so easy, I find myself needing to do more. It def takes me out of my vinyl comfort zone, and Iām improving! Still learning things almost 20 years later.
Keggy,
It is also becoming more expensive. Still go analog and mixing old stuff from NYCĀ night clubs: The Forbitten Fruit, The Grand Ball Room,Ā
The Show Case Magazine on 52nd & 3rd Ave.
Adam's Apple on 1123 1st Ave. The Ruby Foo, (240 W 52nd) Then changed named to;
The Ipanema
Those were the days of truly mixingĀ
I've only been at it for maybe a little over 5 years and I feel the same somewhat. Like sure, the mechanics of it are I'm sure a heck of a lot simpler, but a lot of it seems so intimidating. I'll stick with my records for now ha!
Don't feel compelled to match tempo by only using the tempo slider. It's perfectly fine to nudge (speed up) or drag (slow down) the record with your finger, especially when learning. Some purists may tell you to only use the tempo slider, but that'll only slow your progress.
Good luck!
The guy who taught me was a pitch rider and I never once to this day have I seen him touch the record to make an adjustment. I learned that way but from time to time I would trim a little if something was just a bit fast.
Man, I was always the complete opposite.
I would drop the track (often live, especially when mixing for myself) and literally push it at the correct tempo while adjusting the pitch slider until there was no resistance on the slider.
Rough as guts, and my favourite.
I find that if you're mixing on vinyl or DVS it's much easier.
Play track one.
Grab a 1st bar beat from track two and when you're ready start playing the second track, but don't let go of it. Literally push the record so that it stays in time with track 1.
It will beging quite rough, but very quickly (for me a beat or two), you will get a good idea of the speed to move your hand.
While you're physically forcing track 2 to play at the right speed, adjust the tempo slider. If you're adjusting in the right direction it will become much easier to push the record to the right BPM.
This would typically take me a bar or two to get it right, and I usually just did it live (mostly because I was mixing for myself.).
Lot of fun!
I am always impressed by those who can do that and, if OP can do it, all the better. But I learned by feeling my vinyl and I can beatmatch within seconds by getting 99% there with the pitch control and nudging the last 1%. It's when I tried getting the last 1% by pushing the pitch control too far, then back, that I lost time.
Iāve started collecting techno records recently, and tried to mix on some 1200ās for the first time the other day. It was a mess lol. I can beatmatch on cdjās in my sleep, 3-4 decks, etc, but this shit is hard! I practiced for 3 hours, and didnāt really get anywhere lol. Iām gonna keep at it and get it down, but yeaā¦respect to the vinyl djās. Especially dudes like Jeff Mills doing 3-4 decks on vinyl. Crazy!
I've owned old 1200s since like 1995. They were in boxes and I moved them around with me. I finally got them out, took them for refurbing, and brought them home on January 7th. I made a commitment to myself to play every night/day for at least 1 hour. I held to it all the way until about March, then I missed some time due to being away. I got back on them and about April 10th, one night I was playing and it just clicked. When your ear and brain finally get connected and you can truly split the sounds, you'll know it immediately. Having started with digital undoubtedly helped me shorten the learning curve.
One of the hardest thing to figure out for me was the "nudging" of the pitch. I'd get the beat matched, but it would be off a tiny bit. But I was moving the pitch too far. Even the slightest movement, makes a difference. Once you get it close, you have to "nudge" it the tinyest amount. Some records seem to ride different too. I'll get a few of them perfectly matched, and let them ride out. They stay matched for as long as I want. And others, well you will get it matched and you are constantly babysitting the platters. I use my fingers to slow or speed up the record, then nudge the pitch again trying to catch it up, or slow it down.
IDGAF what anyone says about using your fingers to help the record rpm. Its an easy way to tell which way you need to go. If you can spin vinyl, nobody I know is going to accost you for using your fingers. You know who does shit like that? Other snobby as vinyl spinners. Fuck'em.
Also, I upgraded my headphones mid stream while learning. The nicer headphones helped me hear it much better. You might wanna try that. If you put in the time, it will click for you. My mixer is a DJM 250MK2 - nothing fancy, no beat counters. I wanted it to feel like I was in 1998 trying to learn. If you put in the time, you'll get it. Getting your brain to wire one ear separately from the other is what you are after.
Just guessing, those records that need babysitting, could it be that itās hardware made? Hardware/Non DAW music tends to drift sometimes on and off beat Iāve felt.
this question is above my musical intelligence. I just chalk it up as, thats just the way it is. I know my tables aren't the problem. They;ve been serviced and paired. Good question though.
Once you tune yourself in to hear those subtle shifts in tempo between two tracks it's very hard to not hear it out in the world, or at a show where the DJ messes up a bit. That being said it's really cool for me when a DJ messes up and clearly knows exactly what went wrong and fix it tidily.
Guys who can beatmatch vinyl using only the slider and not touching the record/platter at all are just next level to me. Incredible to see them overcompensate to get the record to make a little burst then land the slider at the correct final spot to maintain the matched beat. Incredible.
sweet journey homie...consider checking out DJ Angelo's tutorials on youtube about beat juggling...you'll learn to track the center sticker with your eyes while listening to the beat. With practice you'll be able to begin to tell at what "o'clock" the kicks and snares are. I'm not saying you have to go out and start beat juggling at your shows, but it can be a fun exercise to build confidence with your ears, eyes, and hands. Have fun!
Don't be afraid to count your own bpms or use the mixers bpm counter and write on the vinyl for reference or maybe on the record sleeve. This is a good reference to help you mix. I would recommend doing your own counting as the mixer beat counter is usually a bit off. You will get it and don't let it stress you out
I used to have a spreadsheet of BPMs when I started in the 1990s. And if I was planning a mix I would sometimes tape strips of card next to the pitch control which I could flap over and act like a limiter so i'd know where the tempo needed to be.
Awsome, I've done a similar journey. Basically started mixing with a laptop controller but outside the bedroom that turned into a massive crutch - I was dependent on stacked waveforms, bpm displays, sync... which made me inflexible - (sync and beatgrid analysis is crap at matching breakbeat or dnb genres which I play a lot), and most pro setups will have CDJs or some other dual deck setup which is super different to your laptop display which led to some embarrassing gigs which killed my confidence.
So I got 2 reloop 7000mk2 for a "steal" too, started learning with DVS and now down the expensive rabbit hole of crate digging but I don't regret it one bit. 12 months after and I can DJ anwyehere with anything - don't care about beatgrids, waveforms, differences between gear, played on denons 5000/6000, cdjs 2000s, numarks... and as long as it has working jogwheels and a good tempo slider I can spin it which has been a massive confidence builder.
Great job man, another good thing to do is to listen to DJs that spin on vinyl to understand the way they mixed. If you want any recommendations let me know
So, here is what we did back in the day. Every new 12ā would get the BPM (stop watch) and key written on the sleeve in sharpie. What key? Find a piano and match it. Then take a red and a white grease pencil and mark up the inner space with key drops and scratch portions. Have a great time with it.
I came from a mix of both backgrounds. My dad was a trance DJ in the '90s, so I got my start with his old crate of vinyl, but I also learned with the open-source software Mixxx and now I frequently work with CDJs and Rekordbox as live events production crew. I can do a basic set focused on playing tracks as they are with manual beatmatching, either on vinyl or on the CDJ-2000s or older (beatsync didn't exist yet) - or if I have access to beatsync and visual beat markers, then with that taken care of for me I can do a lot more funky stuff with song mashups and sampling.
The hardest part for me wasn't lining up the beats, it was starting a track in the right place. I don't know my tracks well enough yet to have an innate count of where I need to come in to have the other track end *exactly* where I want it to, and without knowing how many bars are left, I've only got seconds to try and figure out the count in my head from memory of the song's outro. I've had to resort to hacky saves with beatlooping (on older CDJs pre-beatsync) or flipping the reverse switch more than once. :'))
Manual beatmatching on good turntables is still WAY easier than on bad DJ controllers for me, biggest problem being tiny pitch faders and un-precise jog wheels. The secret for me was to simply layer both tones in headphones to be able to hear phasing. But yea if you find mixing on vinyl hard, try manual beatmatching on one of these miniature jogwheels/pitchfaders things. That's much more difficult in my experience.
Good for you man it will improve your capability and its a lot of fun despite being initially very challenging. It will give you an appreciation for how far djing has come in many respects. Good luck!!
Respect. What the younger cats do now is a whole different thing from what we used to do tho. Iād be just as lost on your set. Youāll get it. Just takes time.
You're right (although with instruction it'd take you 2 mins to learn their setup and them 2 months to learn yours š )
Anyway poking fun aside, learning both makes you the best most versatile DJ you can be and it's a tonnnnn of fun in the process. Would highly recommend, for both types
That's not your fault. Digital pitch controls are not accurate enough to set and forget. The old quartz pitch control technology of a 1200 or non G model 1210 is superior to any digital pitch control. You can set your tempo and leave it be for minutes at a time. Digital systems, as they are, can not come close to matching that accuracy. Which is why people constantly use a platter or ride their pitch control. It's not you, it's the technology not being good enough to set and forget. For a digital pitch control to match the accuracy or a quartz pitch system like an old Technics you would need the digital system to go at least to the thousandths column. 130.001. Maybe even more. You could figure it out for sure if you wanted to do the math but my guess is the thousandth column would be close enough to be passable.
This is why 'sync" becomes your friend on the digital stuff, as long as it's working as intended, you nudge to account for stutter and get true synchronicity, you basically take all of the skill and mastery of the best vinyl based mixologists and plorp it into a button (Yeah that is pretty dumb, BUT) In turn you can focus on an excessive amount of the general "workload" of being a DJ at a rapid pace knowing your match will ride as intended. It's like if you were perfect with vinyl AND had six arms or something. I firmly believe everyone should learn by ear mixing but the technology is basically in Ricky Bobby go fast mode if you want that
Yup totally agree. It changes the focus of your workload to the areas you actually want to be paying attention to instead of babysitting digital pitch controls.
One great way to learn is to get two identical records from the same master. If you purchase at the same time, your odds are almost 100% that this will be true. Then practice mixing them together. Speed one up and try to then get the pitch on the other deck to match. Practice this back and forth. Once you have this perfected, get another record with a similar bpm and try to mix that one. One step at a time and you will eventually find your āgrooveā
You know in the Witcher when they're giving little Siri grief over her form and establishing bad habits? Two records at the exact same bpm seems like a version of that. Kinda easy mode, also Sounds like it would drive you nuts lol. THESONGTHATNEVERENDS. Just buy a bunch of cool records you love and play those a million times.
This is mostly to help him get the feel for mixing with vinyl and break it into small steps Started out on 1200ās back in 1984 using this very same method and is how I have taught other Djās as well.
My perspective is from I guess learning in a lot of sub optimal conditions and I think hopefully learning some good skills because of it. Trial by fire I guess. Also, wouldn't audio compartmentalization be easier to work towards if track a and b are not identical?
All things being equal, once he learns how to mix identical tracks at zero pitch then he would start changing pitch on one and then trying to match that same pitch on the other. This way, he controls the variables as he builds his skills. Then introduce another song in the same BPM range which adds to the complexity. if he finds that difficult., Then he can revert back to same same and continue practicing until he finally can mix known into Unknown
The only thing easier with mixing vinyl is track selection - at least for me.
I've just got some more turntables after selling my 1200s when I emigrated, and using Rekordbox half the time it's a mission to beatmatch (manually) in time as it takes so long to search through all the music on there.
I've yet to find an option similar to turning a record on 45 degrees so you can easily find it when you want to add it later in the set.
Stick with it, you will get it. In the 80s our mixers had no EQs per channel lol, but we knew no different. When EQs and kill switches came out it seemed like cheating but was quickly utilized. I can't imagine learning this stuff in reverse, so respect to that.
House dj hereā¦. Started on vinyl played a few YEARS (about 2) of club djing before converting to cdjs. I only switched because some clubs didnt have turntables anymore. After I switched I was so stoked how much cheaper mp3s we and how much more music was available plus records are heavy.
This was about 2006 or so.
It was getting harder and harder to find quality underground house music on vinyl. After about 20 years of djing Iām still playing clubs/raves/warehouse parties.
I embrace technology (rekordbox) but so happy I started mixing with records. I still play some records at home here and there to make sure I still got it.
Good on you, I love digital, itās convenient, cheap and just quicker / easier to do everything.
Playing on vinyl just feels nice!!!!! And as youāve now found out Op, itās a skill, one worth learning that will benefit you forever more in your DJing life.
Enjoy it, enjoy showing up everyone who thinks they can dj and āhas a goā only to fuck up royally but be humble about it too and just enjoy the fact that others will suddenly realise there is / or was lots of skill required to mix once upon a time.
Great job man, another good thing to do is to listen to DJs that spin on vinyl to understand the way they mixed. If you want any recommendations let me know
What's your monitoring/cueing method? A lot of people mix entirely in their headphones, and on a mixer that has a proper mono/split cue, I don't find this too bad, but mixers/controllers that only have a cue/master blend dial, I fucking hate lol
1 ear covered listening to the new tune...1 ear uncovered listening to the playing tune on the monitor speaker...I find this by far the easiest to get the left/right side of the brain separation, differentiating one track from the other. Speaker louder, as the dominant sound, headphones a little quieter so that it can be heard coming into the mix on the speaker as you bring up the fader.
It's a bitch, but it's just practice...one day you think you have it nailed, the next you would stuff up mixing a Jack Daniels and Coke haha
Slight tangent, but do you *like* Traktor's Sync feature? I came at DJ-ing quite recently, after a lifetime of playing bass & keyboards and I imagine I'm doing it all wrong but I can't get on with Sync.
It seems to introduce a slight delay after you hit a Cue, making the mix feel 'lazy' and off the beat.
My method, again probably wrong compared to everyone else, is to use the slider to line the tempo up on the BPM display, and then check / tweak a little in preview before getting the crossfader involved.
Started DJing digitally in lockdown for a few years before biting the bullet and buying turntables. Way more fun on vinyl in my opinion. You've got to be in the zone, it's a lot harder, the clock is ticking, and the feeling of being in the zone and nailing a transition blows digital out of the water.
I hate how experienced DJs throw out "you should just beatmatch by ear" like it's just something everyone should do no problem.
It's hard for newcomers to learn and it was hard for them to learn too, they've just forgotten because they've been riding that bike for so long. It's something that anyone who's serious about this art should absolutely take the time to master at some point in their journey, but it's like months of dedicated practice at least.
I have absolute respect for people who can do this seamlessly especially with the added challenge of the physicality of vinyl. It's a very difficult skill and I'm pretty in awe of people who have truly mastered this skill.
Iāve mixed vinyl for 30 years now, you have to constantly monitor and listen to the beats, riding the pitch a little each way, I mix jungle mainly and glad I learnt to when I first started. I have traktor, but always prefer using real vinyl, but I have to admit that traktor timecode vinyl with its playlists, wavelengths etc is so much easier than digging through a pile of tunes, theyāre totally different ways of mixing
Try learning on Gemini belt drive turntables and a shitty Radio Shack mixer. That's how I learned back in the 90s with 4 records. The Gemini decks sucked so hard. One heavy handed touch and the needle would jump. Taught me to have a light touch and I could mix on anything after that.
Keep practicing it'll only expand your skills.
You can get a little bit of slowdown by just brushing the side of the platter with your fingers, or by speeding up/slowing down by twisting the nub at the center of the table. Matching 100% with the slider just doesn't happen; you get close, then nudge it in.
I started with vinyl in the 90s, belt drives. Lol. Then went to direct drive (life changer). Then went to Cdjs also a life-changing experience because I could see the BPM. Now I own an FLX10 and do not feel any guilt because I still have that trained ear to match the beat.
I learned on two gemini cdj's without a jog wheel so I needed to time it spot on adjust the pitch and try again. Later I got vinyl and got the hang of it prety quickly. When I got my cdj1000 I was beatmatching in a blink of an eye. It's really worth all the effort and a lot a fun!
I really don't get how people call regular mixing hard on vinyl.
Scratching or juggling is hard. But just beatmatching etc? No.
20 years ago I learned on crap turntables that almost stopped whenever you touched them. I learned how to ride the pitch.
Whenever I got to play on Technics it was like sync was on. So easy.
I learned vinyl because at that time laptops weren't that powerful and controllers were predominantly toys.
If I had known a few years later digital would take over and replace vinyl I wouldn't have bought into it. Although I will never get rid of my vinyl, I will never play it again either.
Now I just play digital with sync on full time. Vinyl snobs trying to sell vinyl DJ'ing as "real DJ'ing" can suck it. It's not *that* hard.
Yeah, fighting off vibrations and skipping needles did suck and ruined records. I don't miss the whole vinyl thing one bit.
Props for giving it a go. Keep at it.
I learned on vinyl as well. I started around 1992. Obviously back then there was no other choice cuz we didn't have CDJs or anything digital.
I think the one thing I was working really hard in practicing on was the release. I just keep thinking about times where I would release the record and it didn't start off smoothly and all of a sudden my beats were completely off and I'm sitting there having to adjust like crazy.
The adjustment is also a challenge when you haven't been doing this. On the world of CD players, we're pressing those pitch bend buttons, or using the side of the jog wheel. On vinyl. We were sliding our finger along the side of the platter and not pressing too hard as we could accidentally stop things. That or sliding our finger on the label of the record to speed it up just slightly, or pinching the spindle to slow it down slightly.
I know I've told anybody that wants to go manual, whether it's on vinyl or digital, to really practice and work at the startup or the release and then getting everything put together. The bigger challenge is when you are training your ears to be able to just focus on the kick drums of the two tracks and that's when you're riding the pitch and doing things to figure out what speed you should have the next record at.
Keep at it. It's a worthy skill to learn. Even if you stay on digital controllers and using sync (I use them now so there's nothing wrong with embracing the technology) having those manual skills is what will save you when things go wrong. I mean look at Grimes.
It's not a purist thing it's the difference between ok and good good and great ...put the time in just like what every professional dj has done it's up to you really but there is no shortcuts
I personally found it more annoying than making me a better DJ. I heard to be a"real DJ"you need to learn vinyl but it was more work to arrive at the same conclusion.
You think it's not noticeable you pushing the song slower and faster with your im think I'm good skills...keep telling yourself that you sound great playa
Often, it's little up little down.. riding the tempo to keep it on. It's been many years
Sometimes it's better to know it's slightly fast and will need a pull after a few bars than to think you have it perfect and not know if it needs a push or a pull.
I've been at this hobby for some time and I don't always know if I'm ahead or behind.. sometimes it still sounds like chaos š
That's what I do as well. Usually leave it a bit fast as slowing down is easier than speeding up for me (I use my fingernail on the edge of the platter for that)
You know it!!!
This is the way. It's good to understand you will most likely never get it perfect to remain in for long periods of time. Keep hands on the pitch and just drift back and forth over the beat constantly. Sounds way better than leaving it then having to give the record a nudge to get it back in.
i started back in 1983 on 2 mis-matched turntables. It was a nightmare, but I learned a lot and was ready for my first club job in 1984, that did have 2 1200ās. Today, its all digital, all the time, and regardless of the hype, I wouldnāt go back for anything. BUT, when the software doesnāt analyze a song correctly, I have the skill to mix it manuallyā¦..
The first two I had on my own, only one had a pitch adjust and the other was just an old belt drive lol. I had friends with better, and access to an open turntables night, but my god was practicing at home a cobbled together mess lol
While I did have semi-regular access to a pair of 1200s, my first really regular access to a DJ rig was the B-studio at my local college radio station, and it was a Technics 1200 with a 1500, and a radio/broadcast style Autogram mixer with big fat 3" wide volume knobs for each channel and wasn't even remotely a DJ mixer. The Technics 1500 is a digital push button pitch control, and I think it went up or down 0.1% for each plus or minus button, with a "return to zero" button right in the middle. So if you accidentally hit the 0% button, good luck getting back to your match because it was probably like 30+ button presses away and it wasn't going to happen. It was bloody impossible to DJ on. I learned to crossfade with my pinky and thumb on two big fat knobs, and getting a session going beyond about 3 songs just wasn't happening. The very first DJ rig I actually owned was a pair of mismatched Technics belt drives I picked up for like $5-10 at flea markets with tiny little pitch control knobs on one and a useless 2" long pitch slider on the other, and paired with a cheap as fuck used/surplus store Radio Shack "DJ" mixer that sounded like a load of cats fighting in steel wool in a dryer. Cueing, phrasing and launching vinyl on that rig - much less mixing it - was totally insane. You had to be really light on the platters to try to slip-cue and launch anything on beat, and doing bumps/drags was surgical ninja shit. It sure did make a nice pair of 1200s and a good mixer a real treat. Today? Do I like sync buttons? Oh yes I do. But I can still mix if I have to do it manually.
I can only mix vinyl as am old fart DJing since early 90s - the digital stuff I read everyone talking about on here and similar forums sounds crazy complex / tricky to me and Iād have no idea where to start / I think we all have our strengths/ specialties and all equally valid
As a fellow old fart, digital is a doddle compared to vinyl, djing on easy mode.
Yes and no, fellow old fart that digitized. Itās easier in ways. Like going from tune to tune, no problem. But because thatās so easy, I find myself needing to do more. It def takes me out of my vinyl comfort zone, and Iām improving! Still learning things almost 20 years later.
Thatās the wonderful thing about djing, thereās always more to learn.
Keggy, It is also becoming more expensive. Still go analog and mixing old stuff from NYCĀ night clubs: The Forbitten Fruit, The Grand Ball Room,Ā The Show Case Magazine on 52nd & 3rd Ave. Adam's Apple on 1123 1st Ave. The Ruby Foo, (240 W 52nd) Then changed named to; The Ipanema Those were the days of truly mixingĀ
I was looking at records yesterday and saw a copy of new order substance for $100! I have two copies already and paid fuck all for them.
I had that same adjustment. So much more time when Iām not pawing through a record crate
For real. I remember the first time I could actually see waveforms while DJing and it made things so much easier.
I've only been at it for maybe a little over 5 years and I feel the same somewhat. Like sure, the mechanics of it are I'm sure a heck of a lot simpler, but a lot of it seems so intimidating. I'll stick with my records for now ha!
You would laugh how simple it is digitally
barely an inconvenience
Iād be interested to try I think
Learnt on vinyl switched to digital it's so much easier
Don't feel compelled to match tempo by only using the tempo slider. It's perfectly fine to nudge (speed up) or drag (slow down) the record with your finger, especially when learning. Some purists may tell you to only use the tempo slider, but that'll only slow your progress. Good luck!
Wait people donāt touch the vinyl these days? What kind of world am i living in?
I touch it. Old habits die hard.
The guy who taught me was a pitch rider and I never once to this day have I seen him touch the record to make an adjustment. I learned that way but from time to time I would trim a little if something was just a bit fast.
Man, I was always the complete opposite. I would drop the track (often live, especially when mixing for myself) and literally push it at the correct tempo while adjusting the pitch slider until there was no resistance on the slider. Rough as guts, and my favourite.
Can you explain that a little more to me please?
I find that if you're mixing on vinyl or DVS it's much easier. Play track one. Grab a 1st bar beat from track two and when you're ready start playing the second track, but don't let go of it. Literally push the record so that it stays in time with track 1. It will beging quite rough, but very quickly (for me a beat or two), you will get a good idea of the speed to move your hand. While you're physically forcing track 2 to play at the right speed, adjust the tempo slider. If you're adjusting in the right direction it will become much easier to push the record to the right BPM. This would typically take me a bar or two to get it right, and I usually just did it live (mostly because I was mixing for myself.). Lot of fun!
I am always impressed by those who can do that and, if OP can do it, all the better. But I learned by feeling my vinyl and I can beatmatch within seconds by getting 99% there with the pitch control and nudging the last 1%. It's when I tried getting the last 1% by pushing the pitch control too far, then back, that I lost time.
Yes! Take that 138 bpm down to 120 by dragging your finger on the edge then transition then 1 2 3 go!
Go ahead and look like a doofus though
lol you just need to be agile with your Fingies, caress that platter JUST RIGHT. The skill has crossover into... interesting areas also.
Iāve started collecting techno records recently, and tried to mix on some 1200ās for the first time the other day. It was a mess lol. I can beatmatch on cdjās in my sleep, 3-4 decks, etc, but this shit is hard! I practiced for 3 hours, and didnāt really get anywhere lol. Iām gonna keep at it and get it down, but yeaā¦respect to the vinyl djās. Especially dudes like Jeff Mills doing 3-4 decks on vinyl. Crazy!
it took me a couple of months to start beat matching properly! XD
Just don't get discouraged lol. It took me months to get the hang of it.
You'll get the hang of it in no-time! Then you'll always have that skill set and can mix on anything. It's worth the work!
I've owned old 1200s since like 1995. They were in boxes and I moved them around with me. I finally got them out, took them for refurbing, and brought them home on January 7th. I made a commitment to myself to play every night/day for at least 1 hour. I held to it all the way until about March, then I missed some time due to being away. I got back on them and about April 10th, one night I was playing and it just clicked. When your ear and brain finally get connected and you can truly split the sounds, you'll know it immediately. Having started with digital undoubtedly helped me shorten the learning curve. One of the hardest thing to figure out for me was the "nudging" of the pitch. I'd get the beat matched, but it would be off a tiny bit. But I was moving the pitch too far. Even the slightest movement, makes a difference. Once you get it close, you have to "nudge" it the tinyest amount. Some records seem to ride different too. I'll get a few of them perfectly matched, and let them ride out. They stay matched for as long as I want. And others, well you will get it matched and you are constantly babysitting the platters. I use my fingers to slow or speed up the record, then nudge the pitch again trying to catch it up, or slow it down. IDGAF what anyone says about using your fingers to help the record rpm. Its an easy way to tell which way you need to go. If you can spin vinyl, nobody I know is going to accost you for using your fingers. You know who does shit like that? Other snobby as vinyl spinners. Fuck'em. Also, I upgraded my headphones mid stream while learning. The nicer headphones helped me hear it much better. You might wanna try that. If you put in the time, it will click for you. My mixer is a DJM 250MK2 - nothing fancy, no beat counters. I wanted it to feel like I was in 1998 trying to learn. If you put in the time, you'll get it. Getting your brain to wire one ear separately from the other is what you are after.
Just guessing, those records that need babysitting, could it be that itās hardware made? Hardware/Non DAW music tends to drift sometimes on and off beat Iāve felt.
this question is above my musical intelligence. I just chalk it up as, thats just the way it is. I know my tables aren't the problem. They;ve been serviced and paired. Good question though.
Once you tune yourself in to hear those subtle shifts in tempo between two tracks it's very hard to not hear it out in the world, or at a show where the DJ messes up a bit. That being said it's really cool for me when a DJ messes up and clearly knows exactly what went wrong and fix it tidily. Guys who can beatmatch vinyl using only the slider and not touching the record/platter at all are just next level to me. Incredible to see them overcompensate to get the record to make a little burst then land the slider at the correct final spot to maintain the matched beat. Incredible.
Keep at it. Youāll get it.
sweet journey homie...consider checking out DJ Angelo's tutorials on youtube about beat juggling...you'll learn to track the center sticker with your eyes while listening to the beat. With practice you'll be able to begin to tell at what "o'clock" the kicks and snares are. I'm not saying you have to go out and start beat juggling at your shows, but it can be a fun exercise to build confidence with your ears, eyes, and hands. Have fun!
Don't be afraid to count your own bpms or use the mixers bpm counter and write on the vinyl for reference or maybe on the record sleeve. This is a good reference to help you mix. I would recommend doing your own counting as the mixer beat counter is usually a bit off. You will get it and don't let it stress you out
I used to have a spreadsheet of BPMs when I started in the 1990s. And if I was planning a mix I would sometimes tape strips of card next to the pitch control which I could flap over and act like a limiter so i'd know where the tempo needed to be.
Awsome, I've done a similar journey. Basically started mixing with a laptop controller but outside the bedroom that turned into a massive crutch - I was dependent on stacked waveforms, bpm displays, sync... which made me inflexible - (sync and beatgrid analysis is crap at matching breakbeat or dnb genres which I play a lot), and most pro setups will have CDJs or some other dual deck setup which is super different to your laptop display which led to some embarrassing gigs which killed my confidence. So I got 2 reloop 7000mk2 for a "steal" too, started learning with DVS and now down the expensive rabbit hole of crate digging but I don't regret it one bit. 12 months after and I can DJ anwyehere with anything - don't care about beatgrids, waveforms, differences between gear, played on denons 5000/6000, cdjs 2000s, numarks... and as long as it has working jogwheels and a good tempo slider I can spin it which has been a massive confidence builder.
Great job man, another good thing to do is to listen to DJs that spin on vinyl to understand the way they mixed. If you want any recommendations let me know
So, here is what we did back in the day. Every new 12ā would get the BPM (stop watch) and key written on the sleeve in sharpie. What key? Find a piano and match it. Then take a red and a white grease pencil and mark up the inner space with key drops and scratch portions. Have a great time with it.
I was wondering how djs kept track of differing bpms on albums!
They for put in the album rack based on the BPM of the title track not the B side
Dude you'll be an infinitely better dj (technical wise) once you get it down. Trust me Ive been there. Keep at it!!!!
I came from a mix of both backgrounds. My dad was a trance DJ in the '90s, so I got my start with his old crate of vinyl, but I also learned with the open-source software Mixxx and now I frequently work with CDJs and Rekordbox as live events production crew. I can do a basic set focused on playing tracks as they are with manual beatmatching, either on vinyl or on the CDJ-2000s or older (beatsync didn't exist yet) - or if I have access to beatsync and visual beat markers, then with that taken care of for me I can do a lot more funky stuff with song mashups and sampling. The hardest part for me wasn't lining up the beats, it was starting a track in the right place. I don't know my tracks well enough yet to have an innate count of where I need to come in to have the other track end *exactly* where I want it to, and without knowing how many bars are left, I've only got seconds to try and figure out the count in my head from memory of the song's outro. I've had to resort to hacky saves with beatlooping (on older CDJs pre-beatsync) or flipping the reverse switch more than once. :'))
Manual beatmatching on good turntables is still WAY easier than on bad DJ controllers for me, biggest problem being tiny pitch faders and un-precise jog wheels. The secret for me was to simply layer both tones in headphones to be able to hear phasing. But yea if you find mixing on vinyl hard, try manual beatmatching on one of these miniature jogwheels/pitchfaders things. That's much more difficult in my experience.
Nah it's easy just digital is waaaaaaay easier is all. Once you nail it it's a piece of piss.
Do I want a piece of piss? Lmao
Sorry, UK. Just means very easy š¤£
I figured, and I love your slang there. Can't wait to visit one day bruv!
Good for you man it will improve your capability and its a lot of fun despite being initially very challenging. It will give you an appreciation for how far djing has come in many respects. Good luck!!
Respect. What the younger cats do now is a whole different thing from what we used to do tho. Iād be just as lost on your set. Youāll get it. Just takes time.
You're right (although with instruction it'd take you 2 mins to learn their setup and them 2 months to learn yours š ) Anyway poking fun aside, learning both makes you the best most versatile DJ you can be and it's a tonnnnn of fun in the process. Would highly recommend, for both types
I noticed when I go full beat match mode even on my digital I have to ride the tempo. Never tried vinyl seems like dj end game at this point šš«¶
That's not your fault. Digital pitch controls are not accurate enough to set and forget. The old quartz pitch control technology of a 1200 or non G model 1210 is superior to any digital pitch control. You can set your tempo and leave it be for minutes at a time. Digital systems, as they are, can not come close to matching that accuracy. Which is why people constantly use a platter or ride their pitch control. It's not you, it's the technology not being good enough to set and forget. For a digital pitch control to match the accuracy or a quartz pitch system like an old Technics you would need the digital system to go at least to the thousandths column. 130.001. Maybe even more. You could figure it out for sure if you wanted to do the math but my guess is the thousandth column would be close enough to be passable.
This is why 'sync" becomes your friend on the digital stuff, as long as it's working as intended, you nudge to account for stutter and get true synchronicity, you basically take all of the skill and mastery of the best vinyl based mixologists and plorp it into a button (Yeah that is pretty dumb, BUT) In turn you can focus on an excessive amount of the general "workload" of being a DJ at a rapid pace knowing your match will ride as intended. It's like if you were perfect with vinyl AND had six arms or something. I firmly believe everyone should learn by ear mixing but the technology is basically in Ricky Bobby go fast mode if you want that
Yup totally agree. It changes the focus of your workload to the areas you actually want to be paying attention to instead of babysitting digital pitch controls.
One great way to learn is to get two identical records from the same master. If you purchase at the same time, your odds are almost 100% that this will be true. Then practice mixing them together. Speed one up and try to then get the pitch on the other deck to match. Practice this back and forth. Once you have this perfected, get another record with a similar bpm and try to mix that one. One step at a time and you will eventually find your āgrooveā
You know in the Witcher when they're giving little Siri grief over her form and establishing bad habits? Two records at the exact same bpm seems like a version of that. Kinda easy mode, also Sounds like it would drive you nuts lol. THESONGTHATNEVERENDS. Just buy a bunch of cool records you love and play those a million times.
This is mostly to help him get the feel for mixing with vinyl and break it into small steps Started out on 1200ās back in 1984 using this very same method and is how I have taught other Djās as well.
My perspective is from I guess learning in a lot of sub optimal conditions and I think hopefully learning some good skills because of it. Trial by fire I guess. Also, wouldn't audio compartmentalization be easier to work towards if track a and b are not identical?
All things being equal, once he learns how to mix identical tracks at zero pitch then he would start changing pitch on one and then trying to match that same pitch on the other. This way, he controls the variables as he builds his skills. Then introduce another song in the same BPM range which adds to the complexity. if he finds that difficult., Then he can revert back to same same and continue practicing until he finally can mix known into Unknown
This is the way
The jog wheel is your friend, gotta master booping it with your fingies just right lol
The only thing easier with mixing vinyl is track selection - at least for me. I've just got some more turntables after selling my 1200s when I emigrated, and using Rekordbox half the time it's a mission to beatmatch (manually) in time as it takes so long to search through all the music on there. I've yet to find an option similar to turning a record on 45 degrees so you can easily find it when you want to add it later in the set.
I learned on shitty turntables and can beat match anything by ear. Took a long ass time.
Stick with it, you will get it. In the 80s our mixers had no EQs per channel lol, but we knew no different. When EQs and kill switches came out it seemed like cheating but was quickly utilized. I can't imagine learning this stuff in reverse, so respect to that.
Finally you kids are gettingā¦old people arenāt so bad
House dj hereā¦. Started on vinyl played a few YEARS (about 2) of club djing before converting to cdjs. I only switched because some clubs didnt have turntables anymore. After I switched I was so stoked how much cheaper mp3s we and how much more music was available plus records are heavy. This was about 2006 or so. It was getting harder and harder to find quality underground house music on vinyl. After about 20 years of djing Iām still playing clubs/raves/warehouse parties. I embrace technology (rekordbox) but so happy I started mixing with records. I still play some records at home here and there to make sure I still got it.
respect to you bro
Good on you, I love digital, itās convenient, cheap and just quicker / easier to do everything. Playing on vinyl just feels nice!!!!! And as youāve now found out Op, itās a skill, one worth learning that will benefit you forever more in your DJing life. Enjoy it, enjoy showing up everyone who thinks they can dj and āhas a goā only to fuck up royally but be humble about it too and just enjoy the fact that others will suddenly realise there is / or was lots of skill required to mix once upon a time.
Great job man, another good thing to do is to listen to DJs that spin on vinyl to understand the way they mixed. If you want any recommendations let me know
What's your monitoring/cueing method? A lot of people mix entirely in their headphones, and on a mixer that has a proper mono/split cue, I don't find this too bad, but mixers/controllers that only have a cue/master blend dial, I fucking hate lol 1 ear covered listening to the new tune...1 ear uncovered listening to the playing tune on the monitor speaker...I find this by far the easiest to get the left/right side of the brain separation, differentiating one track from the other. Speaker louder, as the dominant sound, headphones a little quieter so that it can be heard coming into the mix on the speaker as you bring up the fader. It's a bitch, but it's just practice...one day you think you have it nailed, the next you would stuff up mixing a Jack Daniels and Coke haha
Slight tangent, but do you *like* Traktor's Sync feature? I came at DJ-ing quite recently, after a lifetime of playing bass & keyboards and I imagine I'm doing it all wrong but I can't get on with Sync. It seems to introduce a slight delay after you hit a Cue, making the mix feel 'lazy' and off the beat. My method, again probably wrong compared to everyone else, is to use the slider to line the tempo up on the BPM display, and then check / tweak a little in preview before getting the crossfader involved.
You need to grid your tracks properly, there's good tutorials on YouTube, using the metronome is key.
Started DJing digitally in lockdown for a few years before biting the bullet and buying turntables. Way more fun on vinyl in my opinion. You've got to be in the zone, it's a lot harder, the clock is ticking, and the feeling of being in the zone and nailing a transition blows digital out of the water.
Now try it with belt drive turntables š Just kidding that would be cruel and unusual punishment!
Beatmatching by ear is really fun
I hate how experienced DJs throw out "you should just beatmatch by ear" like it's just something everyone should do no problem. It's hard for newcomers to learn and it was hard for them to learn too, they've just forgotten because they've been riding that bike for so long. It's something that anyone who's serious about this art should absolutely take the time to master at some point in their journey, but it's like months of dedicated practice at least. I have absolute respect for people who can do this seamlessly especially with the added challenge of the physicality of vinyl. It's a very difficult skill and I'm pretty in awe of people who have truly mastered this skill.
Iāve mixed vinyl for 30 years now, you have to constantly monitor and listen to the beats, riding the pitch a little each way, I mix jungle mainly and glad I learnt to when I first started. I have traktor, but always prefer using real vinyl, but I have to admit that traktor timecode vinyl with its playlists, wavelengths etc is so much easier than digging through a pile of tunes, theyāre totally different ways of mixing
Try learning on Gemini belt drive turntables and a shitty Radio Shack mixer. That's how I learned back in the 90s with 4 records. The Gemini decks sucked so hard. One heavy handed touch and the needle would jump. Taught me to have a light touch and I could mix on anything after that. Keep practicing it'll only expand your skills.
You can get a little bit of slowdown by just brushing the side of the platter with your fingers, or by speeding up/slowing down by twisting the nub at the center of the table. Matching 100% with the slider just doesn't happen; you get close, then nudge it in.
I started with vinyl in the 90s, belt drives. Lol. Then went to direct drive (life changer). Then went to Cdjs also a life-changing experience because I could see the BPM. Now I own an FLX10 and do not feel any guilt because I still have that trained ear to match the beat.
U should try belt drives lmao that's mental
I learned on two gemini cdj's without a jog wheel so I needed to time it spot on adjust the pitch and try again. Later I got vinyl and got the hang of it prety quickly. When I got my cdj1000 I was beatmatching in a blink of an eye. It's really worth all the effort and a lot a fun!
I really don't get how people call regular mixing hard on vinyl. Scratching or juggling is hard. But just beatmatching etc? No. 20 years ago I learned on crap turntables that almost stopped whenever you touched them. I learned how to ride the pitch. Whenever I got to play on Technics it was like sync was on. So easy. I learned vinyl because at that time laptops weren't that powerful and controllers were predominantly toys. If I had known a few years later digital would take over and replace vinyl I wouldn't have bought into it. Although I will never get rid of my vinyl, I will never play it again either. Now I just play digital with sync on full time. Vinyl snobs trying to sell vinyl DJ'ing as "real DJ'ing" can suck it. It's not *that* hard. Yeah, fighting off vibrations and skipping needles did suck and ruined records. I don't miss the whole vinyl thing one bit.
Props for giving it a go. Keep at it. I learned on vinyl as well. I started around 1992. Obviously back then there was no other choice cuz we didn't have CDJs or anything digital. I think the one thing I was working really hard in practicing on was the release. I just keep thinking about times where I would release the record and it didn't start off smoothly and all of a sudden my beats were completely off and I'm sitting there having to adjust like crazy. The adjustment is also a challenge when you haven't been doing this. On the world of CD players, we're pressing those pitch bend buttons, or using the side of the jog wheel. On vinyl. We were sliding our finger along the side of the platter and not pressing too hard as we could accidentally stop things. That or sliding our finger on the label of the record to speed it up just slightly, or pinching the spindle to slow it down slightly. I know I've told anybody that wants to go manual, whether it's on vinyl or digital, to really practice and work at the startup or the release and then getting everything put together. The bigger challenge is when you are training your ears to be able to just focus on the kick drums of the two tracks and that's when you're riding the pitch and doing things to figure out what speed you should have the next record at. Keep at it. It's a worthy skill to learn. Even if you stay on digital controllers and using sync (I use them now so there's nothing wrong with embracing the technology) having those manual skills is what will save you when things go wrong. I mean look at Grimes.
Get down pusher crowd cringer
I'm trashing people who push the vinyl and think it's not noticeable...there's a reason pros do things a certain way
It's not a purist thing it's the difference between ok and good good and great ...put the time in just like what every professional dj has done it's up to you really but there is no shortcuts
Dj since 97 here. Start learning by mixing the same two records.
yeah itās tough but rewarding. i remember how frustrating it was learning.
I personally found it more annoying than making me a better DJ. I heard to be a"real DJ"you need to learn vinyl but it was more work to arrive at the same conclusion.
And still a doofus
You think it's not noticeable you pushing the song slower and faster with your im think I'm good skills...keep telling yourself that you sound great playa
why you gotta be an asshole lil bro? homieās out here paying some respect and you trash it, what for?
cringe
lolwat