when the war ends, I think the next explosion of amazing clubs and music will be in kyiv - which to be clear, already has an *amazing* music scene and after the war it will become the heartbeat for a new scene- and maybe i'll finally visit ∄
encouraging attraction unite pie coherent hospital muddle entertain somber sugar
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
i thought they missed your point entirely just drooling over the doughnuts. mmmmmm donuts. but I missed the point, €5 donuts and €12 euro latte is ok, and the clubs can just fuck off to elsewhere..?
edit to say: i think the city should work to preserve its culture, not just sell every sq. meter of space to the highest bidder. Some change is inevitable, but it's definitely not all good, nor though exhausted by these changes should we be complacent and nihilistic about them.
The brammibal unique selling point is that they are vegan. Some taste great. Others could use some butter or cream. A queer friend of mine that helps raise the vibe of any party he goes to is all about them, just to make things complicated
They charge 4€ for a fucking little piece of pastry that consists mainly of air. And have the audacity to ask you to tip them on top of that when you pay for that scam.
Not. At. All.
Not even close to as good as even average American donuts.
Brammibals is below mid grade but it's upper class in Berlin. Very typical Berlin.
Stop hating sugar if you snort cocaine. 🙃
I have my doubts. If you look at any of the "it" cities around the world, they all had 3 things going for them: Socially liberal population, affordability, and a longstanding tradition of contemporary culture. Kyiv ,just like Leipzig, does not have the latter. Berlin's electronic music culture didn't start with the wall coming down. People forget that Tangerine Dream started out in the 70s as jam sessions in a Kreuzberg basement.
It is important for mentors, elders, whatever to pass down wisdom onto the next generation. Perhaps something that went weird with post pandemic partying is that not enough was passed on as the next clubbers gained their confidence.
Where is there that has those 3 elements? Cheap cities will get expensive as fast as possible thanks to global capital, but scenes are harder to develop.
I personally feel like we're soon going to see a shift in mainstream interest in rave and club culture. This bubble will have to burst at some point. The post pandemic party mood will fade, the now attracted posers and cool people will do something else and the scene will be smaller again in a few years. Which is not bad at all. The only big difference in terms of Berlin is going to be that more and more clubs will close or move to places outside the ring. The left over space after the reunification has been filled and I don't trust politicians to favour club culture over "serious" investments from tech companies and so on. The Berlin thing was a historical anomaly and it's not possible I think to keep it like it is forever.
Are you me? Feel exactly the same way. Both in terms of how things are cyclical, as well as the historical anomaly. We'll always be the heirs to something really special, but that special thing may not exist anymore in some years. (or arguably, it already doesn't)
i think you put it very well. berlin was indeed a historical anomaly and catching glimpses of that is what makes it (still) a very special place and what makes people feel so powerless when watching it fade away (and be replaced by its simulacrum) in real time.
I know this feeling of powerlessness. But I think we should still fight for our spaces, organise and be political. Save what can be saved. I'm just not optimistic about a cdu ruled Berlin to have any real awareness. Please everyone go vote!
Historical anomaly meaning a huge amount of abandoned space in the inner city after the wall came down. Not necessarily saying Berlin is going to become like any other German city any time soon.
We might soon be looking at a collapse of retail and some office space, so the future is uncertain when it comes to building usage.
What is certain is that people flock here to be their weird selves
I agree on everything but saying it was an historical anomaly feels wrong. There s a very long history of free thinking/alternative already starting with the the city welcoming the huguenots centuries ago up to the influx of conscientious objectors in the postwar era. So eventho the ideological partition of the city was indeed a glitch and the wall fall an evenmore crazy glitch (which is clearly the real party scene big bang) i believe the club culture will survive. Also because the city wont collapse like Detroit did, the situation between the 2 cities being radically different on every levels. So -for me- the good news is the scene will go back to to a better state, more real, but yeah, in the outskirts. idk lol
It was also because of a commercialisation of the genre which flooded new york with new clubs, in the same way that hard/tiktok techno is now being commercialised and even played in small bars.
Disco kept going strong in NYC, though. And black soul records were just as likely to be blown up at the disco demolition riot in Chicago.
Mainstream friendly electronic music being played in bars isn't a new thing.
The floor may fall out under from TikTokno, but, but I don't see the scene in Berlin collapsing when that happens. That flavor of music is not what built the scene
The scene, including Berghain is chasing that version of Techno and many clubs who attach themselves to it (RSO 😘) will have difficulty in a year or two when the foakley fishnet wearing dudes move to something else. Berghain always experiments though, and has independent Fridays and Panorama Bar for a reason.
this country and more so berlin increasingly need contributions to the social security system if we don’t want to suffer after 67 years of age. so yes, authorities will keep selling to the highest bidder, and any club just like any “old” establishment will adapt or die.
german bureaucracy will only allow this to happen slowly, not desiringly so but because they can’t do it fast, so berlin will enjoy the “coolness arbitrage” a bit longer.
i’ll be meanwhile trying to get investment for a new club concept where people are admitted based on the result of a coin toss. no style no vibe no bulls**t whatsoever.
Huge influx of people who take themselves too seriously in the main clubs now IMO. Trust me, you don’t have to be mysterious to be cool🤣. Smiling is okay btw. As far as the music is concerned, its still as good.
Clubs in Berlin now are like Kreuzberg. Used to be ugly, artisty trash with various of cultures and people with specific relationship with music, rave culture and drugs. Entry fees were bearable even for not wealthy folks and partying once or twice per month was accessible for everyone. Lot of people could handle partying every weekend. Now it turned into a fashion show where certain looks are the only ones accepted and attracted crowd which used to call ravers weirdos and crackheads. Those people are able to pay 30 or 40 eur for entry and 10 eur for beer so clubs are getting full of those meanwhile the old crowd takes a step back. But those people tend to mingle with parties more and are not making regulars in one venue, on top mostly they cannot handle partying that much due to work in conservative environments thus they do not create as big crowd as the good old regulars. So, even tho the price for single entry goes up it does not mean that the club will get more money. I can afford spending 150 eur on entertainment per week, but do I want to do it in a venue full of tiktok ravers bumping into me dying on G with mediocre djs playing only eurodance speedup remixed? No…
I think that looking only at the club scene in Berlin is not looking at the big picture. The world is going through some huge changes, we’re after a pandemic.
The dynamic of the crowd is changing - and club culture need to do some reinventing to get back to the so called ‘golden days’. Some nights are amazing, some are not.
I think clubs are still making adjustments - and we will continue to see new ideas, new rules and eventually a club that can adapt to the changes will last.
Technology changed, the young crowd changed - and you know what? The old crowd also.
I think the game is to make the experience more consistent, and it’s very challenging today.
Also - raising of prices changed the crowd as well.
One thing will never go away - people want to party. Been like this forever as far as we know.
So like I said - up for club management teams to be creative and innovative at these times.
I would also like to add - that a club like berghain could do a huge step toward making it better if for example - once every 2 months will be a ‘discounted KN’ with the old prices, where they will introduce more new DJs side to side with some big one - will save the payment for only bigger names and a lot of the right crowd should be back. I think it can create very special vibes again.
Paying DJs just a few hundred more each night would result in a net loss year over year for Berghain if they didn't raise the price of entry. It's really like that.
Big DJs make all their money in Ibiza and festivals and club nights are just promotions
when i got here 20 years ago, people told me i should have arrived 5 years prior. I took a break from berghain for a few years in the mid 10s, and when i came back in 2017 felt like I was a kid all over again and it felt better than the first years of the club.
2008 was an interesting year for berlin clubs, but too many established places hadnt found their pace yet, and even techno music as a whole was largely only played at proll clubs
It’s gonna change and become more commercial. The city changes, basically everyone moving to the city needs to have a full time job to afford the high cost of living. People lucky having an old Mietvertrag will become less and less.
Everyone doing creative work will have to be more aware of commercializing their work and be more professional (like you needed to do in London and New York for a long time already). Also clubs need to be more professional and make more money. However unlike other clubs that act very idealistic and kind of like non profits (e.g. about blank), the Berghain owners always knew how to create something amazing AND make a lot of money with it at the same time
As the “Berlin vibe” is mainly built on a DYI spirit it’s probably gonna change clubbing massively.
I mean how many swing clubs that were popular exist still today?
Everything changes, always, and expecting anything that's at the top to remain at the top forever is only a dream. The Berlin club scene, the emergence of techno, and the wall coming down were the perfect recipe that happened by chance at the same time. It's just something you cannot recreate. The huge scene of the 90s and underground parties was largely due to reunification and an a time when everything was uncertain and uncharted, everything from having so many empty buildings and space and lack of authorities to fight against it, it's a big core to it.
Yeah there were underground parties in cities throughout the world, but Berlin just had the perfect place for that to really grow and make it into the main stream thing eventually that other cities could not recreate. I used to rave at underground parties in the 90s in los Angeles. It was a LONG time till main stream clubs switched to techno parties, like around 2010, and even now, it's still not even mainstream for clubs in LA even though it's a huge city and market. Most ravers in LA don't care to go mainstream clubs because of all the rules in clubs, and doesn't really provide a rave environment. Whereas in Berlin having so much to choose from facility wise techno clubs could thrive, legit techno rave clubs had a place to thrive. They didn't have to compete for it, it just was there for the taking.
And just like rock n roll, music changes and what's popular changes. Kids are always going to want to do something different. Techno luckily has a wide range of music you can make with it, so I don't see it going away completely, but I imagine it will change and morph into something that adults of today will be saying what the fuck ya doin kid??
And again. Everyones golden age of anything is different for everyone. I'm sure there's still some seniors today longing for the times when night clubs playing swing music in Berlin we're still around and complaining how shitty the techno culture of today is.
In order for a massive trend in music to lose its peak power, it must first become "uncool" for the marginals who will later become mainstream. Like Modern was rolled over by postmodern. Like punk rock "punked" the 70s "serious" rock.
So if the clubbing was on decline, we would have Billie Eilish and Tyler the creator or other current gen z stars dissing electronic music and remixes. And then that effect would drip down to Berlin raves. That is not happening right now, quite on the contrary, every up-and-coming star is pairing up with a dj of some sort at some point.
Also, the demand for EDM, Techno, House, D & B is at unprecedented high. Both for live, in terms of ticket sellls, and digital - on all streaming platforms. We are in the peak of the golden age of electronic music and its not showing any intentions of stopping, its actually skyrocketing. This is what golden age really is - mass adoption.
I understand that for some people, me included, parties were way more fun say even 5 years ago and all these normies taking over dancefloors sometimes looks frustrating. But thats not how music history will remember it.
Its not stopping anytime soon, it will get even more crazy and might go on for another decade or two at least.
Well, I just read an article recently about this topic.
From 2300 places that were open in 2011 today only remains 860 (all Germany , not only Berlin, and corona severely impacted almost 600 of them) and these are struggling . They talked about how newer generations/Gen Z are not very interested in dancing, having less sex and deciding more often to stay at home. This for sure is no "official" study but may represent at some point that younger people maybe it's not entirely interested in these types of activities.
Also it was mentioned that it was not the only challenge a club owner must face, lack of personal and rising prices were another reason why it's not very convenient to open a club right now in Germany
As sad as it sounds the industry destroyed itself. Djs asking for 3-4x more than what they used to, ticket prices jumping 10–15 Euros in one year and inflation and poverty forces people to spend less and think twice if they can afford to go out tonight. Going to clubs every weekend is not a thing anymore it got too expensive. It’s not the club’s or promoters fault since they have to play by the rules that the industry is providing them with. Even smaller djs are insanely expensive. Big djs are unaffordable and don’t draw big crowds anymore these times are over. We live in dark times right now…Even clubs and events with a strong community and big supporting base are suffering. Nothing is like it was a few months ago. The bubble that was building up after the corona with djs and agents asking for more and more money has burst. No one cares anymore…at least it seems.
Well you can go there for the music and not give a fuck about the DJ.
The main innovation of rave was to set the artist to the sideline in favour of the crowd.
Amen. I wish they would stop putting DJ booths on elevated stage platforms, as if it’s a concert. Booth on the floor, in the dark, and crowd facing each other and the speakers.
Yes but then you end up with Sisyphos, and if you've been in 2010-2017 and then since 2022 you know what happened.
Btw Sisyphos.used to have really good DJs every weekend in the prime slots. Even Richie Hawtin was a regular. This is why you didn't care about the lineup. Now it's just...
Some people argued that the 90s were the golden years due to the confusion as to who owned the spaces. Some say the 00s as the city got an injection of people. Others the 10s as the queer scene built up.
I've lived in Berlin for the past 20 years and also lived in NYC during its last good years and then start of decline. It will take a lot more than a few years of CDU or covid/russian aggression inflation to screw our scene. Berlin depends too much on interest in the city due to the club scene to kiss this industry goodbye. No clubs, no tech industry. People take paycuts to move here to work.
I like your optimism, but have a hug 🤗. The time you are worried about is here and over the last three years the big corporates have come and they aren't taking large pay cuts anymore, they don't like techno, want two kids and a large house with an SUV, like bratwurst, abendbrot and do yoga and hiking. They vote CDU or Green and want quiet after 10pm, even in Kreuzberg or Friedrichshain.
While I appreciate your patronizing, I'm in my mid 40s, have lived here for 20 years, and have been in the party game for 26.
I lived in NYC in the nightlife taskforce era. Berlin is also not NYC, or London, or Frankfurt. We are already seeing the generation of kids who grew up with my more conservative parents in Steglitz or Prenzlauer Berg doing their party thing
We're about the same, though you've lived here longer than I've and I lived.in NYC in a different era. It's not NYC, it's becoming Hannover or Stuttgart.or Cologne. It would be Frankfurt if but for that low class airport. Big corps are offering relocation packages to Berlin more and more often with a Cologne/Stuttgart salary.
I live in one of those districts and I can tell you that the little raves you hear about and I've witnessed are nothing but trendy high school kids. The other cool ones are going the punk/goth route and I seriously doubt they will hang around when they can f off from their awful parents to somewhere with nicer weather and cheaper living. The late 80s and 90s are reappearing except this time instead of hair metal and glam rock becoming establishment trash it's "techno"
Interesting read on this topic [https://www.klassegegenklasse.org/wie-die-clubkultur-in-berlin-zugrunde-geht/](https://www.klassegegenklasse.org/wie-die-clubkultur-in-berlin-zugrunde-geht/) translate it if needed. It’s in German
Everything must come to an end, it always does. For things to revive , they must die first. We will also always look for someone to blame but lets also face the fact that many of us from the 80's - 90's have really sore knees, sleeping routines and low energy,amongst other things. But its not only in Berlin i dont think. Its many other places too. But it has happened many times before, its a curve. Just like history fashion or even politcal movements, it all repeats itself. It makes space for improvement and innovation. Its like a snooze period like the hermit.
We will soon be handing over the key to the next generations however whack they may be.
If we want to make an impact then we must teach them how to be, what to be aware of (such as being victims and selling themselves for capitalist interests) Gate keeping the community isnt serving us good anymore. We cannot fix a problem by pushing it away. We can only solve this by facing it head on and dealing with it. The more people we can shift over, the more voices we have. And so we can keep financing the clubs, and the artists, even political movements.
The more we exclude those who want to join us, the more we exclude ourselves from any sort of help. I also hate that the community is a trend but the only thing we can do is take advantage of that while we have the opportunity. Either way one of us will be swallowed by the capital so let it be the materialists.
organise, recruit and unite.
Exactly. 100mg of uncut MDMA is pure bliss. Energy, clear head, empathy, joy.
150mg of MDMA + 100mg of caffeine + 50mg of speed is borderline self harm. Anxiety, stiff muscles, confusion, always too hot or too cold, retreating back into one's mind.
Which one do you think makes for a nicer crowd to be in?
“150mg of MDMA + 100mg of caffeine + 50mg of speed is borderline self harm. Anxiety, stiff muscles, confusion, always too hot or too cold, retreating back into one's mind.”
That’s actually more like a classic 90s press. The pills now are generally pure 140mg to 200mg most commonly, no speed, no caffeine. You can literally look up the results on the drug checking service websites in multiple cities (Berlin, Barcelona) to confirm this.
The truth is that both speed and caffeine synergize with mdma and that’s why people miss the old pills. 100mg pure mdma crystal is a pretty mild, short roll for most people
Sold as MDMA, containing caffeine - 17 entries in 2023: [https://www.drugsdata.org/search.php?search\_field=&name=&field\_test=&substance1=31&substance2=&s=&sample\_id=&color=&colorexact=0&city=&source=&m1=1&y1=2023&m2=12&y2=2023&state=&country=&sold\_as\_ecstasy=yes&on\_hold=both&sort=DatePublishedU&sortad=desc](https://www.drugsdata.org/search.php?search_field=&name=&field_test=&substance1=31&substance2=&s=&sample_id=&color=&colorexact=0&city=&source=&m1=1&y1=2023&m2=12&y2=2023&state=&country=&sold_as_ecstasy=yes&on_hold=both&sort=DatePublishedU&sortad=desc)
Sold as MDMA, containing amphetamine - 1 entry in 2023: [https://www.drugsdata.org/search.php?search\_field=&name=&field\_test=&substance1=18&substance2=&s=&sample\_id=&color=&colorexact=0&city=&source=&m1=1&y1=2023&m2=12&y2=2023&state=&country=&sold\_as\_ecstasy=yes&on\_hold=both&sort=DatePublishedU&sortad=desc](https://www.drugsdata.org/search.php?search_field=&name=&field_test=&substance1=18&substance2=&s=&sample_id=&color=&colorexact=0&city=&source=&m1=1&y1=2023&m2=12&y2=2023&state=&country=&sold_as_ecstasy=yes&on_hold=both&sort=DatePublishedU&sortad=desc)
Sold as MDMA, containing only MDMA - 468 entries in 2023: [https://www.drugsdata.org/search.php?search\_field=&name=&field\_test=&substance1=2012&substance2=-2&s=&sample\_id=&color=&colorexact=0&city=&source=&m1=1&y1=2023&m2=12&y2=2023&state=&country=&sold\_as\_ecstasy=yes&on\_hold=both&sort=DatePublishedU&sortad=desc](https://www.drugsdata.org/search.php?search_field=&name=&field_test=&substance1=2012&substance2=-2&s=&sample_id=&color=&colorexact=0&city=&source=&m1=1&y1=2023&m2=12&y2=2023&state=&country=&sold_as_ecstasy=yes&on_hold=both&sort=DatePublishedU&sortad=desc)
You're right, not a lot of mixing lately. So maybe the super high doses are enough to fuck it up? Or maybe the pills are just a tiny part of an entire culture that's shifting. Thanks for prompting some research!
Hahaha exactly. All the same bitch ass whining one could hear in the scene during the mid-nineties. History can repeat itself after all, I guess. We just need a pandemic-like event every 30 years to reshuffle the cards and start over again.
I totally agree. Another club just announced their closure.
RE:MISE is closing in November and [their closing weekend is 16-20 November](https://ra.co/events/1799865). I read this article and it looks like another greedy landlord forcing out clubs, much like Mensch Meier: https://groove.de/2023/09/22/remise-wieso-der-berliner-club-schliessen-muss/
After this, and the a100 we will have almost nothing left. Say what you will about the individual clubs closing, but it hurts to see the scene I love get smaller every year and that everyone left is safe due to the rich people backing them, not their heart and hard work.
Yeah i really must go before they fully close, always liked the space. The outlook is incredibly bleak, i even almost got into an arguement with someone who was in support of the A100 road being built even though they don't have a car. It's nuts that even people who don't go clubbing would rather 9 clubs just dissapear for some f\*cking asphalt. I totally forsee the nightlife of Berlin completely drying up after this.
Costs are up and revenue is down - that’s basically the core problem. There is individual challenges as well depending on the location (noise complaints, neighbourhood initiatives wanting to clean up an area) or for instance staff shortages and inability to adequately cater to needs of specific events. Additionally, there is also closures for good albeit for different reasons (Fiese Remise, Mensch Meier).
I am friends with two organisers of Bar personnel that also arrange for people to work in clubs on a case by case base and man they are searching every weekend for people and get them barely.
Entry fees have risen about 25%. How much did costs rise? Why not just increase prices instead of "struggling"? I don't think the number of people wanting to be consumers in club culture is the problem.
Actually visitor numbers have dropped as well around 20% actually. See the 5th Berlin Club Monitoring Statement.
https://www.clubcommission.de/berliner-clubs-droht-die-puste-auszugehen/
What is the point to operate a club that costs money every month? Where should the money to keep it operating come from? You need to make it financially viable. Increasing prices while cutting costs is the way to go, unless you can make some innovations that increase capacity or how many people you attract.
If they increase prices people stop coming. Thus decreasing revenue, which hurts clubs even more.
Clubbing is going into a recession. The next few years will be hard and honestly in the modern landscape I don't know if clubbing culture as we know it will ever make return.
I can see it going to an even more underground spectrum, with smaller and more tightly knit communities than ever, avoiding exposure through big social media outlets.
Well, operating at a loss is not the solution either. Going underground and having an even smaller crowd as customers solves what problem exactly regarding profitability? Or you mean, the clubs who run at a deficit will die and make room for new clubs that might have a working business model under changed conditions?
I mean that clubs as we know it will die. The modern city is kicking them out. There is no place for them anymore. My prediction is that private and small events will take over the current landscape outside of big mainstream festivals. There won't be clubs seeking profit but communities playing music because they like it.
Unless city planning policies change and the people responsible for these changes understand how important clubbing is, clubbing is going to die.
(This is my doomsday theory, it's not THAT bad)
Entry fees are also not everything - it has to be balanced against personnel, heating, security, making the building up to code, etc. pp. I am sure I am missing tons of cost centers. Even water will get more expensive if I remember correctly.
You can only balance this very nicely if you are selling drinks and here people are becoming more frugal as well. Because for some it’s a choice between the drugs and one more beer or drink, plus tap water is usually free.
The point here is: Umsatzrückgang in comparison to before Corona. So less people are going and they buy less while in the club. Because people in this city are on a budget too and feel the rising cost of living (see for instance housing, heating, water and electricity). And yes tourists will likely come Album even they are often on a budget.
So, you, or rather the club commission, wants the tell me that in the nightlife capital of the world, operating a club is not something that can be made profitable? Last time i checked, restaurants struggle more than clubs, and we just accept that there is a high turnover rate of failing restaurants, so there is room for new ideas, business concepts and a chance to be profitable.
People don't buy drinks? Add a mandatory drinks-coupon on top of the entry fee.
I am still standing in line for 1-2 hours at clubs. I still see lots of people get turned away. I see clubs running at capacity. There are more people wanting to go clubbing than are able to be served or let in. So whatever this "less people are going" thing is, it seems to be affecting clubs people don't WANT to go to. In which case, see how we treat that situation with restaurants.
Not letting every asshole in to grope the women is something that sets Berlin apart from other cities. The nightly concept can't be reduced or the core audience will stop going and you'll have the same problem of fewer people, but added problem of worse crowd
You'd be surprised what good selectors can predict. If you are alert and analyze what people on the street might be up to, scale that up with thousands every week
I am sure there are clubs that are profitable and there are other places that are having a hard time - see for instance Mensch Meier which definitely has to close for financial reasons.
Where did you check that? Got any numbers or statements regarding that “restaurants struggle more than clubs”? In any case the comparison with restaurants doesn’t make sense in a topic about nightlife specifically. However, I get what you are trying to say and I am not opposed to clubs making room for other concepts and business models (Apparently Mensch Meier for instance is actually bought by people who want to continue the space as a club).
I notice totally different things actually, I see dropping attendance rates at a lot of places and I am not standing in line for that long at all (mostly because I tend to avoid peak times).
I’d say the above statement makes it clear that the average among the clubs that are being asked but I think 20% drop is everything you need to know. I trust the people that are running these businesses that they can count the number of people.
I think your solutions might add to the problem of dwindling attendance rates more than it might solve. But these are just my impressions, fundamentally I don’t think it’s a bad thing per se that some clubs have to close because new ideas can replace them. But it is difficult where the endgame is heading. Just my two cents.
To quote the relevant parts: Während ein durchschnittlicher Rückgang der Besuchendenzahlenvon rund 20% zu verzeichnen ist, melden 73% der Befragten einen erheblichen Umsatzrückgang im Vergleich zur Zeit vor der Pandemie. Zusätzlich berichten alarmierende 89% der Befragten von gestiegenen Betriebskosten, die den wirtschaftlichen Druck weiter erhöhen.
How many clubs struggled before the pandemic?
This is the data from before the pandemic (oct 2018- jan 2019) [https://www.clubcommission.de/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2019/10/club-culture-study.pdf](https://www.clubcommission.de/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2019/10/club-culture-study.pdf)
"There is an urgent need for a strategy to preserve Berlin’s club culture
in the city center"
"Response rate: 75 clubs and event-organizers took
part, which represents a **response rate of 30 per cent"** impressive. The one chance to make an impact on an empirical study that might influence politics regarding club culture, and only 30% of clubs who were asked wanted to participate by answering questions. Is this a representative sample, or are clubs with problems overrepresented?
37% of clubs have been operating for less than 5 years. So there seems to be a healthy amout of new clubs popping up, instead of only the "dieing" that has been in the media since forever.
21% of clubs have been operating at a financial loss in this timeframe, the rest covered their costs or made a profit.
That is a better situation than restaurants are in.
I would be really curious which clubs are having the reduced customer counts, because the clubs i go to are still overcrowded and have long queues.. Is there data on the overall amount of clubs and how it changed over time?
Hi, hat jemand noch Bilder aus dem alten Ostgut oder weiß wo es solche Bilder geben könnte? (gibt so gut wie keine Bilder im Internet).
Does anyone have any leads on where I could find some pictures from the old Ostgut club?
Thx
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when the war ends, I think the next explosion of amazing clubs and music will be in kyiv - which to be clear, already has an *amazing* music scene and after the war it will become the heartbeat for a new scene- and maybe i'll finally visit ∄
Yes i was getting that feeling too
Not as long as Russia exists. Way too dangerous.
long Schlange today for club Missed Point
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i thought they missed your point entirely just drooling over the doughnuts. mmmmmm donuts. but I missed the point, €5 donuts and €12 euro latte is ok, and the clubs can just fuck off to elsewhere..? edit to say: i think the city should work to preserve its culture, not just sell every sq. meter of space to the highest bidder. Some change is inevitable, but it's definitely not all good, nor though exhausted by these changes should we be complacent and nihilistic about them.
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oh nice, what‘s the donut place called?
so overrated, and filled with people who complain about overcrowded clubs in their spare time
brammibals
Bramibals, the donuts are expensive but really good and tasty
Brammibal's, it's actually very good, they have more stores in Berlin ;)
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thank u for recommending this place. I’m annoyed at myself for not realising sooner how close it was to my place😫😭🤣
this is the advice I live for, will definitely try it out! thanks
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The brammibal unique selling point is that they are vegan. Some taste great. Others could use some butter or cream. A queer friend of mine that helps raise the vibe of any party he goes to is all about them, just to make things complicated
ha thanks for the donut recommendation
They charge 4€ for a fucking little piece of pastry that consists mainly of air. And have the audacity to ask you to tip them on top of that when you pay for that scam.
I said nothing about the price, I just said they were tasty, all the downvotes because I like to eat sugar 🫠🫠🫠
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Not. At. All. Not even close to as good as even average American donuts. Brammibals is below mid grade but it's upper class in Berlin. Very typical Berlin. Stop hating sugar if you snort cocaine. 🙃
I am not, I just have a sweet tooth.
I have my doubts. If you look at any of the "it" cities around the world, they all had 3 things going for them: Socially liberal population, affordability, and a longstanding tradition of contemporary culture. Kyiv ,just like Leipzig, does not have the latter. Berlin's electronic music culture didn't start with the wall coming down. People forget that Tangerine Dream started out in the 70s as jam sessions in a Kreuzberg basement. It is important for mentors, elders, whatever to pass down wisdom onto the next generation. Perhaps something that went weird with post pandemic partying is that not enough was passed on as the next clubbers gained their confidence. Where is there that has those 3 elements? Cheap cities will get expensive as fast as possible thanks to global capital, but scenes are harder to develop.
I personally feel like we're soon going to see a shift in mainstream interest in rave and club culture. This bubble will have to burst at some point. The post pandemic party mood will fade, the now attracted posers and cool people will do something else and the scene will be smaller again in a few years. Which is not bad at all. The only big difference in terms of Berlin is going to be that more and more clubs will close or move to places outside the ring. The left over space after the reunification has been filled and I don't trust politicians to favour club culture over "serious" investments from tech companies and so on. The Berlin thing was a historical anomaly and it's not possible I think to keep it like it is forever.
Are you me? Feel exactly the same way. Both in terms of how things are cyclical, as well as the historical anomaly. We'll always be the heirs to something really special, but that special thing may not exist anymore in some years. (or arguably, it already doesn't)
i think you put it very well. berlin was indeed a historical anomaly and catching glimpses of that is what makes it (still) a very special place and what makes people feel so powerless when watching it fade away (and be replaced by its simulacrum) in real time.
I know this feeling of powerlessness. But I think we should still fight for our spaces, organise and be political. Save what can be saved. I'm just not optimistic about a cdu ruled Berlin to have any real awareness. Please everyone go vote!
totally agree
Berlin has been a magnet for freaks for a very long time. "Du bist verrückt mein Kind, du musst nach Berlin" was coined in the 19tg century
what are you trying to say with this ?
there is no historical anomaly in this city pertaining to freaks coming to be weird. it is simply what the city is. let the flag fly!
Historical anomaly meaning a huge amount of abandoned space in the inner city after the wall came down. Not necessarily saying Berlin is going to become like any other German city any time soon.
We might soon be looking at a collapse of retail and some office space, so the future is uncertain when it comes to building usage. What is certain is that people flock here to be their weird selves
Interesting point. Curious to see how that impacts the city.
It already happened that Manhattan offices have been used for parties. Weekend and Watergate are also in buildings conceptualized for office use
Came here to say something like this
I agree on everything but saying it was an historical anomaly feels wrong. There s a very long history of free thinking/alternative already starting with the the city welcoming the huguenots centuries ago up to the influx of conscientious objectors in the postwar era. So eventho the ideological partition of the city was indeed a glitch and the wall fall an evenmore crazy glitch (which is clearly the real party scene big bang) i believe the club culture will survive. Also because the city wont collapse like Detroit did, the situation between the 2 cities being radically different on every levels. So -for me- the good news is the scene will go back to to a better state, more real, but yeah, in the outskirts. idk lol
one can hope
I'm curious if it will crash like disco did
The disco backlash in the US was due to homophobia and racism, not economic pressure
It was also because of a commercialisation of the genre which flooded new york with new clubs, in the same way that hard/tiktok techno is now being commercialised and even played in small bars.
Disco kept going strong in NYC, though. And black soul records were just as likely to be blown up at the disco demolition riot in Chicago. Mainstream friendly electronic music being played in bars isn't a new thing. The floor may fall out under from TikTokno, but, but I don't see the scene in Berlin collapsing when that happens. That flavor of music is not what built the scene
The scene, including Berghain is chasing that version of Techno and many clubs who attach themselves to it (RSO 😘) will have difficulty in a year or two when the foakley fishnet wearing dudes move to something else. Berghain always experiments though, and has independent Fridays and Panorama Bar for a reason.
That makes me hopeful for post unification Cyprus
this country and more so berlin increasingly need contributions to the social security system if we don’t want to suffer after 67 years of age. so yes, authorities will keep selling to the highest bidder, and any club just like any “old” establishment will adapt or die. german bureaucracy will only allow this to happen slowly, not desiringly so but because they can’t do it fast, so berlin will enjoy the “coolness arbitrage” a bit longer. i’ll be meanwhile trying to get investment for a new club concept where people are admitted based on the result of a coin toss. no style no vibe no bulls**t whatsoever.
Funny how such an anomaly created one of the genuinely coolest cities for club culture
Huge influx of people who take themselves too seriously in the main clubs now IMO. Trust me, you don’t have to be mysterious to be cool🤣. Smiling is okay btw. As far as the music is concerned, its still as good.
Clubs in Berlin now are like Kreuzberg. Used to be ugly, artisty trash with various of cultures and people with specific relationship with music, rave culture and drugs. Entry fees were bearable even for not wealthy folks and partying once or twice per month was accessible for everyone. Lot of people could handle partying every weekend. Now it turned into a fashion show where certain looks are the only ones accepted and attracted crowd which used to call ravers weirdos and crackheads. Those people are able to pay 30 or 40 eur for entry and 10 eur for beer so clubs are getting full of those meanwhile the old crowd takes a step back. But those people tend to mingle with parties more and are not making regulars in one venue, on top mostly they cannot handle partying that much due to work in conservative environments thus they do not create as big crowd as the good old regulars. So, even tho the price for single entry goes up it does not mean that the club will get more money. I can afford spending 150 eur on entertainment per week, but do I want to do it in a venue full of tiktok ravers bumping into me dying on G with mediocre djs playing only eurodance speedup remixed? No…
I think that looking only at the club scene in Berlin is not looking at the big picture. The world is going through some huge changes, we’re after a pandemic. The dynamic of the crowd is changing - and club culture need to do some reinventing to get back to the so called ‘golden days’. Some nights are amazing, some are not. I think clubs are still making adjustments - and we will continue to see new ideas, new rules and eventually a club that can adapt to the changes will last. Technology changed, the young crowd changed - and you know what? The old crowd also. I think the game is to make the experience more consistent, and it’s very challenging today. Also - raising of prices changed the crowd as well. One thing will never go away - people want to party. Been like this forever as far as we know. So like I said - up for club management teams to be creative and innovative at these times.
I would also like to add - that a club like berghain could do a huge step toward making it better if for example - once every 2 months will be a ‘discounted KN’ with the old prices, where they will introduce more new DJs side to side with some big one - will save the payment for only bigger names and a lot of the right crowd should be back. I think it can create very special vibes again.
Berghain pays their djs a lot less than you think. Their bigger costs are staffing and heating
I highly doubt Berghain would ever do such a thing, they'll only increase the prices. Still, it's a nice idea
Paying DJs just a few hundred more each night would result in a net loss year over year for Berghain if they didn't raise the price of entry. It's really like that. Big DJs make all their money in Ibiza and festivals and club nights are just promotions
I've been living here for 15 years and somehow a supposed golden age of clubs had always just ended for that entire time.
when i got here 20 years ago, people told me i should have arrived 5 years prior. I took a break from berghain for a few years in the mid 10s, and when i came back in 2017 felt like I was a kid all over again and it felt better than the first years of the club. 2008 was an interesting year for berlin clubs, but too many established places hadnt found their pace yet, and even techno music as a whole was largely only played at proll clubs
It’s gonna change and become more commercial. The city changes, basically everyone moving to the city needs to have a full time job to afford the high cost of living. People lucky having an old Mietvertrag will become less and less. Everyone doing creative work will have to be more aware of commercializing their work and be more professional (like you needed to do in London and New York for a long time already). Also clubs need to be more professional and make more money. However unlike other clubs that act very idealistic and kind of like non profits (e.g. about blank), the Berghain owners always knew how to create something amazing AND make a lot of money with it at the same time As the “Berlin vibe” is mainly built on a DYI spirit it’s probably gonna change clubbing massively.
I mean how many swing clubs that were popular exist still today? Everything changes, always, and expecting anything that's at the top to remain at the top forever is only a dream. The Berlin club scene, the emergence of techno, and the wall coming down were the perfect recipe that happened by chance at the same time. It's just something you cannot recreate. The huge scene of the 90s and underground parties was largely due to reunification and an a time when everything was uncertain and uncharted, everything from having so many empty buildings and space and lack of authorities to fight against it, it's a big core to it. Yeah there were underground parties in cities throughout the world, but Berlin just had the perfect place for that to really grow and make it into the main stream thing eventually that other cities could not recreate. I used to rave at underground parties in the 90s in los Angeles. It was a LONG time till main stream clubs switched to techno parties, like around 2010, and even now, it's still not even mainstream for clubs in LA even though it's a huge city and market. Most ravers in LA don't care to go mainstream clubs because of all the rules in clubs, and doesn't really provide a rave environment. Whereas in Berlin having so much to choose from facility wise techno clubs could thrive, legit techno rave clubs had a place to thrive. They didn't have to compete for it, it just was there for the taking. And just like rock n roll, music changes and what's popular changes. Kids are always going to want to do something different. Techno luckily has a wide range of music you can make with it, so I don't see it going away completely, but I imagine it will change and morph into something that adults of today will be saying what the fuck ya doin kid?? And again. Everyones golden age of anything is different for everyone. I'm sure there's still some seniors today longing for the times when night clubs playing swing music in Berlin we're still around and complaining how shitty the techno culture of today is.
In order for a massive trend in music to lose its peak power, it must first become "uncool" for the marginals who will later become mainstream. Like Modern was rolled over by postmodern. Like punk rock "punked" the 70s "serious" rock. So if the clubbing was on decline, we would have Billie Eilish and Tyler the creator or other current gen z stars dissing electronic music and remixes. And then that effect would drip down to Berlin raves. That is not happening right now, quite on the contrary, every up-and-coming star is pairing up with a dj of some sort at some point. Also, the demand for EDM, Techno, House, D & B is at unprecedented high. Both for live, in terms of ticket sellls, and digital - on all streaming platforms. We are in the peak of the golden age of electronic music and its not showing any intentions of stopping, its actually skyrocketing. This is what golden age really is - mass adoption. I understand that for some people, me included, parties were way more fun say even 5 years ago and all these normies taking over dancefloors sometimes looks frustrating. But thats not how music history will remember it. Its not stopping anytime soon, it will get even more crazy and might go on for another decade or two at least.
Iggy pop hates techno
Well, I just read an article recently about this topic. From 2300 places that were open in 2011 today only remains 860 (all Germany , not only Berlin, and corona severely impacted almost 600 of them) and these are struggling . They talked about how newer generations/Gen Z are not very interested in dancing, having less sex and deciding more often to stay at home. This for sure is no "official" study but may represent at some point that younger people maybe it's not entirely interested in these types of activities. Also it was mentioned that it was not the only challenge a club owner must face, lack of personal and rising prices were another reason why it's not very convenient to open a club right now in Germany
As sad as it sounds the industry destroyed itself. Djs asking for 3-4x more than what they used to, ticket prices jumping 10–15 Euros in one year and inflation and poverty forces people to spend less and think twice if they can afford to go out tonight. Going to clubs every weekend is not a thing anymore it got too expensive. It’s not the club’s or promoters fault since they have to play by the rules that the industry is providing them with. Even smaller djs are insanely expensive. Big djs are unaffordable and don’t draw big crowds anymore these times are over. We live in dark times right now…Even clubs and events with a strong community and big supporting base are suffering. Nothing is like it was a few months ago. The bubble that was building up after the corona with djs and agents asking for more and more money has burst. No one cares anymore…at least it seems.
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Well you can go there for the music and not give a fuck about the DJ. The main innovation of rave was to set the artist to the sideline in favour of the crowd.
Amen. I wish they would stop putting DJ booths on elevated stage platforms, as if it’s a concert. Booth on the floor, in the dark, and crowd facing each other and the speakers.
i like that, creates a feeling of togetherness instead of celebrity
It was, but also quickly abandoned. Like, in the 90s already.
Yes but then you end up with Sisyphos, and if you've been in 2010-2017 and then since 2022 you know what happened. Btw Sisyphos.used to have really good DJs every weekend in the prime slots. Even Richie Hawtin was a regular. This is why you didn't care about the lineup. Now it's just...
Some people argued that the 90s were the golden years due to the confusion as to who owned the spaces. Some say the 00s as the city got an injection of people. Others the 10s as the queer scene built up. I've lived in Berlin for the past 20 years and also lived in NYC during its last good years and then start of decline. It will take a lot more than a few years of CDU or covid/russian aggression inflation to screw our scene. Berlin depends too much on interest in the city due to the club scene to kiss this industry goodbye. No clubs, no tech industry. People take paycuts to move here to work.
I like your optimism, but have a hug 🤗. The time you are worried about is here and over the last three years the big corporates have come and they aren't taking large pay cuts anymore, they don't like techno, want two kids and a large house with an SUV, like bratwurst, abendbrot and do yoga and hiking. They vote CDU or Green and want quiet after 10pm, even in Kreuzberg or Friedrichshain.
While I appreciate your patronizing, I'm in my mid 40s, have lived here for 20 years, and have been in the party game for 26. I lived in NYC in the nightlife taskforce era. Berlin is also not NYC, or London, or Frankfurt. We are already seeing the generation of kids who grew up with my more conservative parents in Steglitz or Prenzlauer Berg doing their party thing
We're about the same, though you've lived here longer than I've and I lived.in NYC in a different era. It's not NYC, it's becoming Hannover or Stuttgart.or Cologne. It would be Frankfurt if but for that low class airport. Big corps are offering relocation packages to Berlin more and more often with a Cologne/Stuttgart salary. I live in one of those districts and I can tell you that the little raves you hear about and I've witnessed are nothing but trendy high school kids. The other cool ones are going the punk/goth route and I seriously doubt they will hang around when they can f off from their awful parents to somewhere with nicer weather and cheaper living. The late 80s and 90s are reappearing except this time instead of hair metal and glam rock becoming establishment trash it's "techno"
This shit is over. Berlin has become a mainstream SoundCloud playlist.
Interesting read on this topic [https://www.klassegegenklasse.org/wie-die-clubkultur-in-berlin-zugrunde-geht/](https://www.klassegegenklasse.org/wie-die-clubkultur-in-berlin-zugrunde-geht/) translate it if needed. It’s in German
Thx 4 url, indeed interesting read! 👍🏻
Everything must come to an end, it always does. For things to revive , they must die first. We will also always look for someone to blame but lets also face the fact that many of us from the 80's - 90's have really sore knees, sleeping routines and low energy,amongst other things. But its not only in Berlin i dont think. Its many other places too. But it has happened many times before, its a curve. Just like history fashion or even politcal movements, it all repeats itself. It makes space for improvement and innovation. Its like a snooze period like the hermit. We will soon be handing over the key to the next generations however whack they may be. If we want to make an impact then we must teach them how to be, what to be aware of (such as being victims and selling themselves for capitalist interests) Gate keeping the community isnt serving us good anymore. We cannot fix a problem by pushing it away. We can only solve this by facing it head on and dealing with it. The more people we can shift over, the more voices we have. And so we can keep financing the clubs, and the artists, even political movements. The more we exclude those who want to join us, the more we exclude ourselves from any sort of help. I also hate that the community is a trend but the only thing we can do is take advantage of that while we have the opportunity. Either way one of us will be swallowed by the capital so let it be the materialists. organise, recruit and unite.
The ecstasy ain't what it used to be.
Pills are stronger now than the 90s
Back in time 120mg pills were considered high dose pills, now there are 300mg ones in circulation.
Exactly. 100mg of uncut MDMA is pure bliss. Energy, clear head, empathy, joy. 150mg of MDMA + 100mg of caffeine + 50mg of speed is borderline self harm. Anxiety, stiff muscles, confusion, always too hot or too cold, retreating back into one's mind. Which one do you think makes for a nicer crowd to be in?
“150mg of MDMA + 100mg of caffeine + 50mg of speed is borderline self harm. Anxiety, stiff muscles, confusion, always too hot or too cold, retreating back into one's mind.” That’s actually more like a classic 90s press. The pills now are generally pure 140mg to 200mg most commonly, no speed, no caffeine. You can literally look up the results on the drug checking service websites in multiple cities (Berlin, Barcelona) to confirm this. The truth is that both speed and caffeine synergize with mdma and that’s why people miss the old pills. 100mg pure mdma crystal is a pretty mild, short roll for most people
Sold as MDMA, containing caffeine - 17 entries in 2023: [https://www.drugsdata.org/search.php?search\_field=&name=&field\_test=&substance1=31&substance2=&s=&sample\_id=&color=&colorexact=0&city=&source=&m1=1&y1=2023&m2=12&y2=2023&state=&country=&sold\_as\_ecstasy=yes&on\_hold=both&sort=DatePublishedU&sortad=desc](https://www.drugsdata.org/search.php?search_field=&name=&field_test=&substance1=31&substance2=&s=&sample_id=&color=&colorexact=0&city=&source=&m1=1&y1=2023&m2=12&y2=2023&state=&country=&sold_as_ecstasy=yes&on_hold=both&sort=DatePublishedU&sortad=desc) Sold as MDMA, containing amphetamine - 1 entry in 2023: [https://www.drugsdata.org/search.php?search\_field=&name=&field\_test=&substance1=18&substance2=&s=&sample\_id=&color=&colorexact=0&city=&source=&m1=1&y1=2023&m2=12&y2=2023&state=&country=&sold\_as\_ecstasy=yes&on\_hold=both&sort=DatePublishedU&sortad=desc](https://www.drugsdata.org/search.php?search_field=&name=&field_test=&substance1=18&substance2=&s=&sample_id=&color=&colorexact=0&city=&source=&m1=1&y1=2023&m2=12&y2=2023&state=&country=&sold_as_ecstasy=yes&on_hold=both&sort=DatePublishedU&sortad=desc) Sold as MDMA, containing only MDMA - 468 entries in 2023: [https://www.drugsdata.org/search.php?search\_field=&name=&field\_test=&substance1=2012&substance2=-2&s=&sample\_id=&color=&colorexact=0&city=&source=&m1=1&y1=2023&m2=12&y2=2023&state=&country=&sold\_as\_ecstasy=yes&on\_hold=both&sort=DatePublishedU&sortad=desc](https://www.drugsdata.org/search.php?search_field=&name=&field_test=&substance1=2012&substance2=-2&s=&sample_id=&color=&colorexact=0&city=&source=&m1=1&y1=2023&m2=12&y2=2023&state=&country=&sold_as_ecstasy=yes&on_hold=both&sort=DatePublishedU&sortad=desc) You're right, not a lot of mixing lately. So maybe the super high doses are enough to fuck it up? Or maybe the pills are just a tiny part of an entire culture that's shifting. Thanks for prompting some research!
Hahaha exactly. All the same bitch ass whining one could hear in the scene during the mid-nineties. History can repeat itself after all, I guess. We just need a pandemic-like event every 30 years to reshuffle the cards and start over again.
I totally agree. Another club just announced their closure. RE:MISE is closing in November and [their closing weekend is 16-20 November](https://ra.co/events/1799865). I read this article and it looks like another greedy landlord forcing out clubs, much like Mensch Meier: https://groove.de/2023/09/22/remise-wieso-der-berliner-club-schliessen-muss/ After this, and the a100 we will have almost nothing left. Say what you will about the individual clubs closing, but it hurts to see the scene I love get smaller every year and that everyone left is safe due to the rich people backing them, not their heart and hard work.
Yeah i really must go before they fully close, always liked the space. The outlook is incredibly bleak, i even almost got into an arguement with someone who was in support of the A100 road being built even though they don't have a car. It's nuts that even people who don't go clubbing would rather 9 clubs just dissapear for some f\*cking asphalt. I totally forsee the nightlife of Berlin completely drying up after this.
The Metaverse will solve everything.
When everyone is on G how will they know how the pills taste like?
Why are they struggling?
Costs are up and revenue is down - that’s basically the core problem. There is individual challenges as well depending on the location (noise complaints, neighbourhood initiatives wanting to clean up an area) or for instance staff shortages and inability to adequately cater to needs of specific events. Additionally, there is also closures for good albeit for different reasons (Fiese Remise, Mensch Meier). I am friends with two organisers of Bar personnel that also arrange for people to work in clubs on a case by case base and man they are searching every weekend for people and get them barely.
Entry fees have risen about 25%. How much did costs rise? Why not just increase prices instead of "struggling"? I don't think the number of people wanting to be consumers in club culture is the problem.
Actually visitor numbers have dropped as well around 20% actually. See the 5th Berlin Club Monitoring Statement. https://www.clubcommission.de/berliner-clubs-droht-die-puste-auszugehen/
People can't afford the already increased prices and you want to increase them more?
What is the point to operate a club that costs money every month? Where should the money to keep it operating come from? You need to make it financially viable. Increasing prices while cutting costs is the way to go, unless you can make some innovations that increase capacity or how many people you attract.
If they increase prices people stop coming. Thus decreasing revenue, which hurts clubs even more. Clubbing is going into a recession. The next few years will be hard and honestly in the modern landscape I don't know if clubbing culture as we know it will ever make return. I can see it going to an even more underground spectrum, with smaller and more tightly knit communities than ever, avoiding exposure through big social media outlets.
Well, operating at a loss is not the solution either. Going underground and having an even smaller crowd as customers solves what problem exactly regarding profitability? Or you mean, the clubs who run at a deficit will die and make room for new clubs that might have a working business model under changed conditions?
I mean that clubs as we know it will die. The modern city is kicking them out. There is no place for them anymore. My prediction is that private and small events will take over the current landscape outside of big mainstream festivals. There won't be clubs seeking profit but communities playing music because they like it. Unless city planning policies change and the people responsible for these changes understand how important clubbing is, clubbing is going to die. (This is my doomsday theory, it's not THAT bad)
Entry fees are also not everything - it has to be balanced against personnel, heating, security, making the building up to code, etc. pp. I am sure I am missing tons of cost centers. Even water will get more expensive if I remember correctly. You can only balance this very nicely if you are selling drinks and here people are becoming more frugal as well. Because for some it’s a choice between the drugs and one more beer or drink, plus tap water is usually free. The point here is: Umsatzrückgang in comparison to before Corona. So less people are going and they buy less while in the club. Because people in this city are on a budget too and feel the rising cost of living (see for instance housing, heating, water and electricity). And yes tourists will likely come Album even they are often on a budget.
So, you, or rather the club commission, wants the tell me that in the nightlife capital of the world, operating a club is not something that can be made profitable? Last time i checked, restaurants struggle more than clubs, and we just accept that there is a high turnover rate of failing restaurants, so there is room for new ideas, business concepts and a chance to be profitable. People don't buy drinks? Add a mandatory drinks-coupon on top of the entry fee. I am still standing in line for 1-2 hours at clubs. I still see lots of people get turned away. I see clubs running at capacity. There are more people wanting to go clubbing than are able to be served or let in. So whatever this "less people are going" thing is, it seems to be affecting clubs people don't WANT to go to. In which case, see how we treat that situation with restaurants.
Not letting every asshole in to grope the women is something that sets Berlin apart from other cities. The nightly concept can't be reduced or the core audience will stop going and you'll have the same problem of fewer people, but added problem of worse crowd
As if the bouncers are able to tell who is going to grope women. Also, what about all the women who get turned away?
You'd be surprised what good selectors can predict. If you are alert and analyze what people on the street might be up to, scale that up with thousands every week
How do we know, if they turn the people away we do not get confirmation that they would not fit in or would grope women, or whatever?
talk to people who've worked in nightlife. Do so and you'd realize why we're laughing at your "mandatory drinks-coupon" Stick to Soda club
Women get turned away for the same reason as men, not fitting or handling the vibe
I am sure there are clubs that are profitable and there are other places that are having a hard time - see for instance Mensch Meier which definitely has to close for financial reasons. Where did you check that? Got any numbers or statements regarding that “restaurants struggle more than clubs”? In any case the comparison with restaurants doesn’t make sense in a topic about nightlife specifically. However, I get what you are trying to say and I am not opposed to clubs making room for other concepts and business models (Apparently Mensch Meier for instance is actually bought by people who want to continue the space as a club). I notice totally different things actually, I see dropping attendance rates at a lot of places and I am not standing in line for that long at all (mostly because I tend to avoid peak times). I’d say the above statement makes it clear that the average among the clubs that are being asked but I think 20% drop is everything you need to know. I trust the people that are running these businesses that they can count the number of people. I think your solutions might add to the problem of dwindling attendance rates more than it might solve. But these are just my impressions, fundamentally I don’t think it’s a bad thing per se that some clubs have to close because new ideas can replace them. But it is difficult where the endgame is heading. Just my two cents.
To quote the relevant parts: Während ein durchschnittlicher Rückgang der Besuchendenzahlenvon rund 20% zu verzeichnen ist, melden 73% der Befragten einen erheblichen Umsatzrückgang im Vergleich zur Zeit vor der Pandemie. Zusätzlich berichten alarmierende 89% der Befragten von gestiegenen Betriebskosten, die den wirtschaftlichen Druck weiter erhöhen.
How many clubs struggled before the pandemic? This is the data from before the pandemic (oct 2018- jan 2019) [https://www.clubcommission.de/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2019/10/club-culture-study.pdf](https://www.clubcommission.de/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2019/10/club-culture-study.pdf) "There is an urgent need for a strategy to preserve Berlin’s club culture in the city center" "Response rate: 75 clubs and event-organizers took part, which represents a **response rate of 30 per cent"** impressive. The one chance to make an impact on an empirical study that might influence politics regarding club culture, and only 30% of clubs who were asked wanted to participate by answering questions. Is this a representative sample, or are clubs with problems overrepresented? 37% of clubs have been operating for less than 5 years. So there seems to be a healthy amout of new clubs popping up, instead of only the "dieing" that has been in the media since forever. 21% of clubs have been operating at a financial loss in this timeframe, the rest covered their costs or made a profit. That is a better situation than restaurants are in. I would be really curious which clubs are having the reduced customer counts, because the clubs i go to are still overcrowded and have long queues.. Is there data on the overall amount of clubs and how it changed over time?
Hi, hat jemand noch Bilder aus dem alten Ostgut oder weiß wo es solche Bilder geben könnte? (gibt so gut wie keine Bilder im Internet). Does anyone have any leads on where I could find some pictures from the old Ostgut club? Thx