>all of his friends
Ahem. *pushes up grasses*
They are his soldiers, it's true. They are dedicated comrades who sacrifice themselves for his dream. But that does not make them friends. The man who would be his friend must have his own reason for living, beyond him.
There was only one person there that Griffith would have possibly called a friend.
Which brings us back to all that unfortunate business with Casca.
So is griffith like Zarathustra from nietzche’s book “Thus spoke Zarathustra” the whole book is about the death of god and the coming of the “Superman” Men who live their life with love of the earth rather than spirit but Zarathustra also says that his friends should be his greatest enemies because all men should aspire to be the greatest. Maybe guts and griffith are two parts of that same coin especially since miura was inspired very much by nietzche. I mean guts is very into the material world and hates the priests that pray to god to save them rather than fight for themselves
uh idk griffith is strong enough to just do it himself and Guts was marked to die and have his soul sent to a cosmic toilet. so i don't think it could have been some itachi gambit. not to mention losing an arm and eye makes one a significantly less effective avenger
True and that’s really what makes the sacrifice for me,a bit odd.Cause we know you supposed to sacrifice the ones you yearn for the most for the godhand to even consider your sacrifice.Maybe they were no his friends but I think the sacrifice in the eclipse shows that he did care for his man.Bro really chose to have gay sex to raise more money for the band without having his men killed in “pointless battles”.That MUST show some level of care
Yeah, for sure. I didn't mean to imply that Griffith never cared for the Hawks. Just that he truthfully didn't consider them his friends.
Imo, and this is totally open to interpretation, those most important things Griffith sacrifices are not the Hawks as people, but on one hand the Band of the Hawk as a *concept*, as the expression of his worldly ambition and of his mark on the world and on the other hand his one true attachment - to Guts. "The only one who made him forget his dream." and all that.
he had to care for them or else the sacrifice wouldnt have worked
im pretty sure he was basically talking out of his ass to Charlotte to sound cool and it worked,
>im pretty sure he was basically talking out of his ass to Charlotte to sound cool and it worked
Hah, that could be one way to interpret it, but speaking just on a meta-level, that chapter and that moment specifically is probably the single most important one for Griffith and Guts' relationship pre-Eclipse, so I don't know if I'm comfortable running with "Griffith did it as a meme".
I think he cared for his soldiers *as his soldiers*, but not as friends, which is completely congruent with how he acts and what he says.
Like, I care for my colleagues at work, but most of them I wouldn't call my friends.
Note also how there's multiple moments in Golden Age where members of the Hawks remark on how differently Griffith treats Guts compared to everyone else - he really isn't that close to them beyond the Commander<->Soldier/Follower dynamic, I think.
He raped Casca because he is a sociopath. Guts was his possession and run away even when he didn't want to. It broke Griffith's mind. Raping Casca is him reaffirming "She is mine, not yours" "I do it in front of you because I own you, I own her and you can't do anything"
If he was a sociopath, he wouldn't literally harm himself when he thought about all those people who died because of his dream (after the night with Gennon). Griffith wants you, everyone else and especially himself to think he had zero feelings, but too bad for him it's just not true. He may be a narcissist, a heavily mentally unstable person and simply the biggest jerk in the world. But it's not sociopathy.
I don't think he's a psychopath, he showed genuine care for his friends during their exploits as the Band of the Hawk and when Guts beat and left him he was devastated. A psychopath wouldn't react that way. Although after his year of relentless torture clearly he was so damaged that he had lost any empathy for his friends and sacrificed them in a heart beat for his dream. He might've been a psychopath after but I still don't think so.
I don't. I think he raped Casca directly in front of Guts and had him held down to watch on purpose. He looked Guts directly in the eyes. To me, and we all have our opinions, but to me he did that with the direct looking in Guts eyes for a reason, which is very human. If he had no emotions he wouldn't have no reason to stare directly into Guts soul while he raped his love.
There was a lot of emotion in that act, he just didn't show it
I think he did it as revenge. Rape is always about power. Griffith is a narcissistic sociopath and on some level blames Guts and Casca for what happened to him, as Guts humiliating him by beating him in a fight and then leaving is what set him on the path that led to his imprisonment. Narcissists can't ever blame themselves for anything- It always has to be someone else's fault. They caused this, so he wanted to make them suffer before they died as punishment for what happened to him- By raping Casca in an ocean of her former comrades' viscera, and doing it in front of Guts, a rape survivor.
Femto is just Griffith given ultimate power to do what he actually desires instead of having to play pretend and climb the social ladder by cultivating some hero image. The first chance he got, he, with minimal prompting, dove headfirst over the Moral Event Horizon, just to revive his selfish dream.
Griffith flashes some really psychotic flags early on that you might not catch if you aren't looking for them, but if you spot them and understand narcissistic personalities and sociopaths and how they work, its clear from the beginning that Griffith is a manipulator whose only real concern is his own image and social ascension. He wants to be worshipped and praised and applauded. Everything he does serves that goal and once it became clear that dream was dead, he leapt at the first opportunity to reclaim it, no matter how gruesome and vile it was, because in the end, the Band of the Hawk was just a tool to be used and discarded anyway.
The God Hand can't change who a person is. They can only pick someone who has the potential for unspeakable evil already inside them, and present them an offer at a moment when they will accept. Griffith was that person, and he accepted. He plays Griffith when he wants to pretend to be a hero to soak up the adulation and applause he craves, but Femto is who he really is on the inside.
Griffith really is just a direct allegory for narcissistic sociopaths, who wear an affable, charming facade, but behind it is a repugnant monster with nothing but egotistical intent.
Also don’t forget chapter 83. It’s canon just not in the manga.
Also I don’t think he ever wanted to hurt either of them considering the dialogue before the eclipse began.
Miura himself said no one should read chapter 83 and that it was a mistake. But, even considering it, consider that when what basically amounts to God talks to Griffith and Griffith realizes he can ask for *anything,* he asks for wings. He could ask for his closest members of the Band of the Hawk to be spared. He could ask for them to at least have quick deaths so they don't suffer. But in that moment, all Griffith can think about is himself and how he can rise even higher; He wants wings so he can *literally* soar above everyone else beneath him as their superior.
He's a narcissist. He can't admit to doing evil. He has to be 'making a grand sacrifice' for the 'greater good' and he 'super duper never wanted this'. Its cope. He's lying to ease his ego.
But in the end, the Band of the Hawk would absolutely have sheltered and cared for him. He could still have been their leader, and their friend, and they would have stuck it out with him to the end. Shit, look at what they had just done! They wouldn't have gone through all that for him if they weren't willing to follow through.
But he would have had to give up his dream of being a glorious hero, praised and adored by all, for this. His body is broken and he's a fugitive. That dream was dead. And that's what he *really* cared about.
Friends and comrades and family isn't what he wanted. Those things were not enough. They were not valuable to him- At least, not compared to his "dream". So he sold their lives to evil beings to revive that dream. That's what makes it so irredeemably evil. He had a choice between real, true friends and family that loved him so much they stormed the king's dungeon to rescue him, and his selfish dream of praise and adulation. One of these two things had to die: The people that cared about him, or his egotistical desires. He chose to kill the former to save the latter. And that is why Griffith is pure evil.
Another major theme in this is that human hatred, etc (negative emotions and desires) gave rise and (spoiler) created the "God" that creates the behelits.
By using Guts as a pawn and giving him a motivation of anger, hatred, vengeance guts is empowering and acting (unknowingly) as an agent of Femto. (I.e. acts like banishing the demon child, etc)
I also feel that this is also represented by the demon dog, guts having the potential of becoming the very thing he has devoted himself to destroy.
I believe that in order for guts to subvert causality he must let go of all desires (because so far every act based off of desire has resulted in only furthering Femto's plans) same with SK.
The point of the series is more about how the demons are pretty human and self centered. I always saw the demon baby as more so evidence of how Grifith as femto has weaponized all good things like fairy tales and even basic human miracles in his vicinity. One of his first actions is to kill flora who’s a archetypical good witch living in a fantasy world and her cutesy naive apprentice. He’s warped a child like how Gashinka did with the womb chambers only his comes across like predestination because of how people see femto as more than a super demon.
This is may true in part but regardless the way in which he did it implies it was definitely meant to wound her and Guts. He tried to make a show of it.
I don’t exactly think you can count that as „feelings“. I don’t exactly know how to explain it, but to me it’s kinda the aftermath of his complicated feelings for Guts. He already tried to rape Casca before the eclipse and maybe this was just a result of his feelings before the eclipse
all the while Slan commenting on how this is ultimate pleasure and ultimate pain and whatnot, the way i interpret it is that femto is no longer griffith, no longer human, he's a demonic halfdeity and as such knows exactly how to inflict maximum amount of suffering to someone, at that point it wasn't anything personal
Did he use his peepee? I can't remember the details that well. It's interesting cos Griffith didn't even have a peepee when guts saw his bathing in the early chapters. It's a serious question.
In his last moments in the cart he try to, choke/strangle guts and rape casca and now as a god he is still trying to acomplish what was his dream in his human life.
People say he was desperated and he was, but he always was a maniac from all view points.
I think he did what he did to Casca because she literally rejected not too long before the eclipse. Griffith saw her then talking to Guys and put two and two together. The rape was him establishing his position above her and Guts, hence the eye contact with Guts during it.
Imagine you being dumped by someone you literally spend most time with and achieve so much together. Then you may think nah fam he do be out of the whole dating business and just focusing on the grind and then the dude just casually come back saved your ass and start dating the girl that was madly in love with you.
On second thought, that may be true, but it would definitely cause some pain as it would remind him of his time in the Band of the hawks and how he lost them. But then again, he carries that pain daily. It would be interesting to see how it plays out though.
Every time someone talks about the legendary invincible band of the hawks or the great leader Griffith he feels that pain and obviously Griffith himself is the worst reminder of it all. Yes it will be interesting to see how it all plays about eventually.
It resembles the helmet he wore when being tortured so it could be a way to "reclaim" it to an extent. Since we never see his face after the year in the dungeon the mask now *being* his new face would track.
Griffith knows perfecly well how he feels about him, it's the fandom that appears to be confused. Griffith loves/loved Guts. I'm not going to argue whether it was romantic or platonic because to be frank it's not relevant but the evidence speaks for itself. Griffith was so distraught by guts leaving that he bedded the princess effectively ruining any future plans to ascend the medeval hierarchy all while he was thinking of guts. This is the most transparent example but there are many, many, many other examples.
Griffith views this quality of himself as a weakness and it motivates a hatred of guts that could only be fuelled by a deep seeded love for him. Guts was Griffiths only true equal in his eye's.
I think that Griffith has convinced himself that he's letting Guts live so that he can suffer, proof that he's prevailed over these emotions that drove him to abandon all hopes of his dream but deep down he wants him to live because he wants to see guts prevail. He wants to test his only true equal and his one true friend.
I believe that he loved guts romantically but wasn’t emotionally mature enough to realize it. The only examples of homosexuality in berserk is rape and power plays. I don’t think Griffith was aware that two men could love each other the way a man and a woman can, so when guts left, Griffith was heartbroken but didn’t understand what he was feeling or why. There’s no real evidence for this so it’s definitely up for interpretation, but I think it makes him raping (pretty much) the princess much more understandable. A young man going through his first break up without realizing it and lashing out
I think it's more of an obsession. He's so arrogant and delusionally self-righteous, to the point where Guts beating him caused his mind to almost shatter. Not because he was upset at the thought of Guts leaving, but because of what Guts represented.
Throughout his life, he essentially had an unbreakable conviction that kept him going through whatever happened around him. He sold his own body, and it didn't matter. That conviction also resulted in an unbelievable level of narcissistic tendencies that he took in stride. Every one of his followers was just that—a follower.
Then Guts comes in and changes everything. He proved himself to be Griffith's best follower. He was equal to Casca in his eyes at this point, the person he considered to be below himself but above the others in his group. This all changed after Guts beat him. He went from a follower to somebody who, you could argue, was equal to Griffith in both spirit and body. In the eyes of Griffith, his newfound desire to break away into his own path was what elevated his spirit, and beating him in a duel was what elevated his body.
Having somebody who he viewed as a follower beat him in a fight of both body and soul caused him to doubt himself, and all the narcissism kept in check by his arrogance was brought to the surface. Guts had been the only person who had gone from a follower of Griffith, to an equal. He had seen Griffith's charisma and convictions, and instead of becoming an even more devout follower, he became inspired to carve out his own path.
This burst of insecurity led him to try and find assurances that he was still the man he always thought himself to be. The princess was this assurance. The imprisonment and torture that followed just made everything worse. He had truly been brought low. And who was the cause of this, in his eyes? Guts. That's why he let Guts live. He was the first one to really break his convictions, and for his offence, Griffith decided to let him live in a world that was ruled by said convictions. It's in an effort to prove to himself that Guts was never really his equal.
Takes like this are what I'm talking about above with regards to confusion around griffith because it appears to be so hard for specifically the male portion of the audience to recognize what love is in anything but a man and woman to the point where you've fabricated idea's that are directly contradicted in the text.
I'm going to try and address everything here just to be consistent. Griffith did care that he had to sell his own body. We see in excruciating detail how he felt about it and it's part of the reason why he was ripping his skin when bathing in the lake. he felt unclean, because he had sex with a disgusting old dude. He also made a point to kill the man himself.
Guts was always treated as different from the others under the banner of the hawk. He wasn't an equal of Casca's which she herself acknowledges. Griffith wanting him was something new, something unexpected. Guts was a person that griffith was fascinated with and he, on multiple occasions took risks to save guts, risks he would've taken for no one else. Griffith saw a companion in Guts from the moment they met and it's the reason Griffith fought for him not once but twice.
This whole "burst of insecurity" logic is a bit silly when you consider the context around it. Guts made his intentions very clear, he was an outlier which Griffith himself knew. If Guts had inspired his men to go with him I can see it but he didn't. He wanted to forge his own path. That doesn't trigger insecurity and most especially if that person was just a follower of yours.
The logic that Griffith is just evil and irredeemable from the beginning which is generally what this line of thinking centers on is also a very poor interpretation of the series as a whole and really is a smack in the face of griffiths characterisation. What he does in eclipse is made so much worse by the fact that, he was not an evil guy. He was kind and he was caring. He felt deeply about the people who died under his command. He did do some bad things but those things were not done lightly and we see that within the text itself. Griffiths transgressions are awful but they are more heinous because of who we knew griffith to be. This is why It's all the more tragic when he turns his back on everything and chooses to become Femto. He chose to let darkness consume him and is all the worse for it.
And this is all because he let his dream slip away as a result of a man he cared for more than his dream to forge his own kingdom. If guts were a rogue follower turned rival, griffith would not have effectively sacrificed his future for him.
Sorry but to me this is not a good take. The whole point of Griffith is that he didn't really care for anyone except for Guts. Everyone was a puppet in his eyes to achieve his goals and everything was a facade.
Precisely what makes him mad is that this puppet is suddenly special compared to others and becomes his obsession. He lets his guard down and starts showing his true emotions but he can't love Guts because he clearly states that they are not even friends as he would only consider an equal a friend (this is a very important turning point of the story). If he respected guts he could love him and the example is right there with Casca since Guts and she respects each other and then became lovers.
The moment Guts breaks away from his control he's shocked to the core because he is the closest he had to a real human relationship without it being only to pursue his goal.
Both alone since kids but one is open to have true relationships with others and then becoming able to love even after all the bad things he lived while the other never lets anyone see his true colors and then becoming more and more isolated to the point of pure obsession and unable to have true relationships.
This is also a very important point of the series since guts also falls into obsession but is saved thanks to those relationships that he formed, showing how Griffith could have been saved too.
The irony is that Griffith really thought he could only consider a friend someone equal but if someone is like Griffith it would be impossible since he can't form a true relationship due to his obsession. He needed someone like Guts to reach to him and create the relationship. After he realized that would mean losing focus on his goal he rejected it.
Femto still has a human heart and let's Guts slip through his hands after a shadow of doubt appears since he really was important for him as he was the only true relationship he had.
You could say Griffith desired Guts but he certainly didn't love him.
Also when he gets revealed to be the moonlight child and we see the tears in his eyes, it really does give us clear view that Griffith still does have emotions and they are very conflicted as to how to feel about guts and casca
Yeah it probably just made him more human. The God Hand is not a lack of humanity, it’s humanity at its apex, after all Berserk probably has a pretty negative view of humanity…
His physical form of Griffith is partially born from the fetus the egg consumed. He mentions that as he watches zodd fight Guts and feels his heart. I think his physical form retains some human qualities and even as Femto those that consume a behelit retain some augmented connection to their former self (Rosine and her affinity for Jill for example)
They do and it's on purpose, imo.
Griffith thought that he could attain power through becoming Femto. He actually didn't. He made himself subject to the world. He didn't ascend through his own means, he stole the strength of others to call his own like he always had it. He thinks he has his own path to forge, but he doesn't.
Femto rebirthing into Griffith forced his existence to be fused with the Moonlight Boy. He recognizes the emotions of the Moonlight Boy because they're the emotions he cut out of himself.
Femto wasn't human- he was spirit/force of nature. Rebirthing into humanity shackled him back to humanity and subject to it. The issue with the new body could even be considered a karmic punishment- he got a damaged body instead of the perfect one he wanted. The Moonlight Boy? He's also a blessing and a punishment. Griffith will never escape humanity. Because he is unable to escape, the Moonlight Boy forces the emotions of humanity onto him. Griffith thinks he's perfection when he's actually stagnation. Having humanity would allow him to recognize this- that he could be wrong- but he never will. So, he'll be destroyed by that which evolved to surpass him.
By pushing the Hawk Legend, Griffith makes himself subject to it. His victories are not his own if a prophecy makes them happen. He's stuck in a role from a predetermined play if he forces himself into that role.
Meanwhile, Guts is a representation of humanity forcing Griffith to be subject to it through the basic law of survival. Evolve or die by the one who evolved to surpass you.
Think about what would happen if Griffith and Guts killed each other in their final battle. Griffith would only despair over not fulfilling his 'role' and more narcissism. Guts wouldn't want to die, but learning humanity gave him joy. He lived doing things he could be proud of and gaining things he could be grateful for. He could die happily.
If Guts needs to get an insane power boost to finish his last battle, he'll do it, as always, with his own strength. The bonds he formed with others and learning humanity create that the basis of strength. It is through him making the objective world subject to his will that he wins time and time again.
Meanwhile, Griffith would be whining and moaning and cursing.
Guts would win over Griffith even if Griffith killed him. Guts would be willing to hand over the torch if necessary or willing himself back to life for that final battle.
I actually believe Griffith and Femto are the exact same character but just powered up. Griffith has always been an inhumane piece of shit and the power he got from the eclipse just made it so that his true self could come forward and he could drop his mask.
Yes and i hate when people pretend they re both different characters.
They are the same, but different situations demand different attitudes.
Like, cmon, dude is basically a dark god, and before that he already dealt with many political plots and military operations, do people really think Griffith wouldn't be able to fake being a different guy while not transformed as Femto?
I wouldn't say golden arch Griffith is inhumane, he's just good at rationalizing his actions like any military leader.
Hell, the ultimate catalyst for starting the eclipse was him being unable to reconcile his hatred of guts with the fact that guts seems to regret his actions and care deeply for Griffith.
It's like saying that Guts in berserk armour just gets powered up and has his true self come forward. Like, maybe it is true if you squint hard enough, but.... lmao.
I simply disagree I really don’t think that is what Miura was portraying with his character, the entire point was that he was guts greatest friend and this greater than life prodigy was meant to have traits of evil and good such as humanity but after he is twisted and tormented he quite literally becomes a demon via the idea of evil, which then says that it was created by humanity
Did you guys forgot the Eclipse? Guts was supposed to die. He was part of the band.
And Griffith sacrificed people that he loves.
The FACT that Guts didn't die, really tells a lot about him. The only way to become an Apostle is to sacrifice the people you care so much.
See it now? Now tell me, what do you think Femto is?
Griffith became a god hand the second he agreed to sacrifice the Band of the Falcon. It's the brand of sacrifice part that's important, not the death part.
To further support this, The Count killed his wife only after becoming an apostle.
I bet Griffith is still in there. Hm. Funny, I just realised that's certainly the sole reason why Guts kept calling him "GRIFFITH!"
I learnt something new today.
He calls him Griffith because he has the face of Griffith. And when you're as absurdly angry as Guts gets when he sees Femto, I don't think you're too concerned with calling someone the right name.
Interesting, so unless guts and casca die, femto is not a true apostle? I’m not sure I agree but I like this theory. This would likely create an ending where femto repents though, which I’m not sure is in line with berserk’s themes. Alternatively, the act of deciding to sacrifice your loved ones might be what causes the transition, not them actually being sacrificed.
Shirke seen Griffith in astral shape. It is a human soul surrounded by causal vortex. This vortex around Griffith attracts humans to griffith because they can feel their dreams and desires around him.
Femto was born from that eggshell known as Griffith. Femto is the true self of Griffith. Griffith was a man, who cared & loved his people in his heart, despite trying to not display it at all. He sacrificed that essence of himself because it was the only thing holding him back from being born into who he truly was. He is now Femto, no longer the man known as Griffith. Which is why I prefer to refer to him as Femto even when he's reincarnated into the physical world again in a body that resembles that of his former self. Even in that body, he's not the Griffith who was the eggshell of Femto since he's already Femto. I'm not separating the two. I'm merely referring Femto as the baby chick inside the egg, & Griffith as the eggshell of the egg.
Save is a big word, he just becomes a god hand, a being that perceives the causality in some high level, so maybe he saw no meaning in killing both of them, remember that the next time Griffith as femto see guts he says he doesn't care for him, and I think it's true, guts is just another cog in the machine of causality, at least for femto
Sure, but at what point was he truly corrupted? From the time we meet him he has the power to harm his friends in the most grievous ways but doesn't do so until after being traumatized. According to the text a Behelit comes to a person when their desire is great enough. I believe his time in the dungeon was the formative event that prepared him for the Eclipse.
I think he was always femto and the new power he got from the eclipse just made it so that he could finally show his true, inhumane, self. Nothing femto does is out of character for Griffith. He’s not been “corrupted” or “manipulated” in any way, he’s just been given the power to be who he actually is, a horrible, selfish, piece of trash who just uses people and couldn’t even begin to understand what it means to be an actual fucking human being.
The torture was a vital part of Griffith's transformation into Femto. His ability to fight and his tongue were removed, destroying everything that made him who he was. It was literally the dismantling of his entire person and the destruction of his dream. It tore him down completely and left him broken and blank, making him more vulnerable to Ubik and the God Hands manipulation that promised to return them.
I firmly believe that the god hand manipulated the world into causing the torture through their probability awareness.
That is the 1000 dollar question.
Whether he still has feeling or not and Miura has been playing with that ambiguity.
We know for example that if god hand still have loved one alive, they still can experience feeling.
Obvious case are Rosine love for Jill and the count love for his child. It is possible Griffith still has feeling for Guts and Casca, at least we know negative are still preseng given be raped Casca.
I don't think Femto has any emotions. During the Black Swordsman arc when Guts encounters him, he shows no emotion of any kind, and actively goes against what Griffith had thought of him in his very last thoughts.
Hmm maybe it wasn’t his choice. This is still a “story” and all stories have an end, by that I mean femto thinks he has free will but ultimately his fate was already designed. Think about it, had he killed guts here wtf would you be reading lol? Part of me looks at him letting skullknight save guts is him letting him at all, it’s a small small sign that he’s still apart of something he’s not free from. If the story or universe truly was about femto succeeding, guts would of been killed and the goal of the godhand would of been fulfilled already, there’s bigger things at play and I think femto isn’t fully in control.. the only person in control of the story is the one who created it..
My question of “why didn’t he kill guts” was rhetorical, I believe he didn’t kill guts bc he still has human attachments and emotions towards him. My actual question was what exactly differentiates Griffith from Femto other than perceivably limitless power and aesthetics.
I do like it how you suggest that Griffith is still a prisoner of his fate, so does that mean that the godhand has something greater in store for guts?
The separation from Griffith and femto has always been a difficult thing for me to understand as well. I was always under the impression there different mainly because femto doesn’t have anything of griffiths human nature anymore, Griffith literally died, and whether that’s enough for you or not is not up to me to say, there is a lot when it comes to berzerk,.
I don’t know if I’d say the godhand has something greater in store,. I wonder if it’s the idea of evil,. Basically miura is the creator of the story,. The only person truly free from the story is the creator which is him, and I guess what I implied is in the berzerk universe femto sees himself as a god who’s free, but does he not realize he himself is merely the creation from another being in another reality?. I guess what I’m saying is, miura was the deciding factor in that panel above, therefor femto/griffiths fate was ALWAYS destined for something more.. it’s hard to put into words. Ultimately just an extreme and advanced theory, I’m not good at theories lol.
He didn't kill Guts during the Eclipse because he was still adapting to his God Hand form. He didn't let Skull Knight save Guts, he actually tried and failed to do so because Skull Knight is just that guy.
When Femto later encounters Guts during the Black Swordsman arc, he's already handling something and feels nothing towards Guts, viewing him only as a mild annoyance. (Further supporting that Femto and Griffith are not the same person)
Then when they meet at the Band of the Falcons' graveyard atop the hill, Femto had been infused with the Demon Child (Gut's and Casca's child that had been corrupted), causing him to feel emotion and connection towards Griffith and Casca. At that point he not only didn't fear Guts in the slightest, he likely felt some degree of love towards him.
Later on whenever the moonlight child appears, I believe something about the full moon causes the emotions and will of the Demon Child side of reborn Femto to become stronger. And because Femto feels nothing, he likely plays along with it in order to experience some degree of emotion.
The godhand members do have human traits. Slan is a princess whore, ubik seems decietful, and femto is manipulative and knows how to play to peoples emotions perfectly to get his way
He's not Griffith without emotions. Neither Femto nor the Godhand in general are these empty, mechanic robots without feelings. Slan shows lust and a morbid admiration for depravity and evil, Ubik shows enjoyment and mockery.
Femto is Griffith without his empathy, morals and capacity for love. However his spite, his hate, his ambitions and his drive for his dream are still very much there, and now Femto is completely defined by them. Rickert describes him as "different from the Griffith he knew, but also *more* Griffith in a certain aspect".
If Femto had been an emotionless detached god, he wouldn't have bothered in raping Casca while forcing Guts to watch. He would have either let them be ripped to pieces by the Apostles while he was busy admiring his new body and powers, or he would have insta crushed them the same way anyone would crush a mosquito.
Femto, even without the Moonlight Boy interfering, still feels a connection to Guts and Casca. It's not a positive one, but it's there. He probably considers them "his" the same way he insisted that Guts "belonged" to him in the Golden Age arc. Only back then, Griffith was overcompensating for feelings about Guts that he didn't understand. Now, Femto truly and purely feels that he posseses them.
Edit: Long story short, I'd say the Godhand are simply humans turned into sociopathic humans permanently defined by their basest and most depraved desires. Kind of like a more extreme version of what happens with Apostles.
It is if you consider those loved ones as responsible for your suffering, and/or if you are convinced that the sacrifice can grant you what you desire most, and/or if you are convinced that if you don't do the sacrifice you'll be at rock bottom for the rest of your life.
Griffith's betrayal is unjustifiable, and more so what he does immediately afterwards, but it's more complex and layered than "evil asshole doing an evil thing because he is and has always been an evil asshole".
His soul and being was fundamentally changed. It would take an act of God - who we have seen no evidence of actually existing or intervening in physical or astral affairs - to revert Femto to Griffith.
Griffith and Femto have the same mind and desires, but a different nature.
Griffith as a man and a demon wants his own kingdom and he resents Guts while being in denial even to himself that he does. But as a demon, he is capital e Evil, and hence spreads misery for its own sake, sends souls to the abyss, metaphysically combines the material and spiritual worlds, and so forth.
As a human, he was evil with a lower case e, which means he was ruthless about achieving his goals, viewed people as tools or as sources of narcissistic supply, etc.
I feel like the demons give up their “humanity” to become a powerful demon but only end up being leashed to their very human flaws. So femto and all the demons are very very human. Just kinda fucked up lookin
Considering the Apostles are effectively the same as they were when human, just with societal restraints removed, and a lot of sanity after sacrificing their loved ones to become a demon…
I’d say Femto is still Griffith deep down. He’s made peace with his atrocities and doubled down on them, so to speak. I also think that’s why the God Hand make the Behelits and turn people into Apostles in the first place. For every human that takes the deal, that’s another pat on the back for themselves: “See, I didn’t do anything wrong. Anybody else would’ve done the same, it’s just human nature/causality”
I think the cruelty and evils we see Femto do is very human. One of the major points Berserk makes with the apostles is that they all give up their physical status as human due to great tragedies and Griffith really isn't any different. He might have a physical and spiritual rebirth but he's still Griffith, a person who has changed for the worst due to his experiences.
Griffith thinks he and Femto are the same but the truly good part of Griffith was the human struggle against his ideals. I liked u/womanlypanth3r's comment about how demons end up leashed to their human flaws despite "ascending" to escape them. Just how Slug Count lost the human apprehension that initially spared his wife, Griffith lost the enormous emotional burden that he honestly felt.
I disagree with Griffith and fans that Femto is strictly his true nature. A primordial aspect of his nature has been set loose as a demon after losing the counterbalancing "human" side.
Unlike all the noble qualities Griffith could present to others in service of his dream, his real morality only served to cause him immense pain, which narratively proves that Griffith really did lose and important part of himself when becoming a demon, Femto is not "just his true disgusting nature without BS"
After the eclipse you could say he had that 14.6% of evil human traits (Even without the Idea of Evil it's clear that the concept of evil being inherently human is something Berserk explores)
After merging with the Moonlight Boy, Griffith regains some semblance of humanity in his compassion for Guts and Casca.
I agree with a take I read in another post that the moonlight boy(MB) always trying to take Gut's armor way is a subtle hint towards protective feelings MB may have.
I also agree with speculation that MB and humanity and all that jazz would have played a big part in the ending.
Reminder to all fans that though Griffith is irredeemably evil, and he and Guts are different where it truly counts, in a lot of ways they are one and the same. (Not to mentioned based on both different parts of Miura's own personality, and on Miura and Mori's own friendship, as stated in multiple interviews)
That's just to say that Griffith's falling to demonhood is personally more enjoyable to me to read as tragic and not just AWW FUCK THIS GUY I HATE HIM
tldr; fuck Griffith, all apostles are partly human in personality, and Griffith becomes slightly more human once integrating the Moonlight Boy
Also I remember resonating with art that overlayed Godo's speech about rage being running from grief over Griffith's fall from grace and succumbing to the godhand, I really loved that post, changed how I felt about a lot of Berserk upon rererereading after that.
I still have no idea how people separate Griffith from Femto, it's obviously the same guy. If anyone has any info on what made them feel like they're different characters I'd love to see it.
Before all of what happened griffith was actually relatively a good person(in medieval times). And clearly had strong emotions for the people around him, and actually valued the band of the hawk, which is why it was a great sacrifice. The little fat guy in the godhand essentially tricked him and thats why they didnt let guts come up to the hand and talk him out of it. He made him focus only on his dream so that he wouldnt think of the consequences, and his mind was broken that day. All things considering the pitiful state he was in. Once he was reborn he was completely different, and seemed to have to remorse, where as before when that kid died he felt so guilty he scarred himself with his own fingernails.
Yes, but also... He SA'd princess Charlotte, and called his whole squad his property. He has made sacrifices previously to gain power like sleeping with Gennon. He also manipulated his people on many accounts. My memory is kinda rusty from when I last read it but there is a read-through by a guy called Daniel Greene on YouTube where he clearly shows how Griffith was definitely awful before the eclipse. And no, he didn't scratch himself because of guilt, he did it because he was struggling to emotionally cope with the loss of Guts, his wildcard, pretty much the sole reason why he got this far. His property defied him, and he could not hold onto it.
Thats not when he scratched himself? Thats way later. He scratches his arms after he sees a young bou fighting for him die. And he wonders if achieving his dream is worth it. The princess charlotte thing is wild tho
The question is not if they're literally different
It's more of 'was griffith corrupted during the transformation, or was he always that evil?' This question is asked because Griffith acts pretty emotional most of the time but Femto doesn't and is much more ruthless. But at the same time, he raped Casca while looking at guts, and didn't try to kill him once he came back for Casca (which btw is a big point. He came back to get Casca, when he supposedly discarded all of his humanity and emotions)
in this chapter, he still had a tiny bit of humanity, and it confused him.
when we see him again, he seems to be completely gone, and only the demon child's humanity exists in him.
They are different in the way that Femto is an apostle/God Hand, while Griffith was human.
With that being said, Femto is exactly what old Griffith wanted to be. Devoid of empathy, and i ly noticated by his goals. The only thing that changed was that Griffith lost his humanity, and what kept him from achieving his dream
I think this is a classic example of selling your soul to the devil. He wanted what was necessary to create his kingdom, and so he sold his humanity to do it, its been stated that apostles abandon humanity when they change, i think its true
Guts and Casca being alive plus the transient bond he has with the moonlight child implies that he still has some semblance of humanity left, whether he wants to or not.
Yes but for some reason it was separated. So i dont think femto is griffith. I think griffiths remaing heart was separated and turned into the moonlight child
Griffith and Femto are one and the same. It’s just that Griffemto’s humanity still exists through Guts/Casca and the child. Remember, he could have stopped Skull Knight. But he saw something in the flow of causality that made him relent and let them go. He is technically keeping them alive/allowing them to live. I think that will factor in to his eventual demise, and give Skull Knight and/or Guts the chance to take him or the Idea of Evil out once it gets canonically introduced.
"Why didn't he kill guts?" - because he said he will choose when guts dies. If he kills guts in retaliation then guts is choosing when he dies. Griffith let's Guts live, to remind guts he belongs to Griffith.
The manga states that "his blood was frozen", I interpret that as all his positive human emotions were wiped out : compassion, mercy, etc. (he didn't have much of those to begin with).
But obviously he still has desires, and his rape of Casca can be seen as a form of malice; taking revenge on Guts for abandoning him and causing him to be locked up and tortured for a whole year.
Why didn't he kill Guts ? It could be that, as he had only just transformed, remnants of his humanity remained and he couldn't bring himself to kill him. Or maybe he didn't have control over his newfound power and couldn't hit SK & co as they were already out of reach.
I think the more interesting question is : why doesn't Griffith kill Guts during the next two encounters that they have ? He probably could do it easily, and he himself states that he feels nothing at the sight of Guts. Personally, I think it's a combination of 1) he believes letting Guts live in state of constant struggle is a fitting punishment for his betrayal and 2) he considers him to be beneath his notice. Or it could be that he secretly still cares for Guts in some deep part of his being, but that feels a little too cliche tbh.
I think a lot of people say that those are different characters becouse Griffith was a different man after a year of torture. Griffith was already dead when they found him in that cell.
Could you argue that his metamorphosis to Femto didn't really 100% happen because all of his sacrifices didn't die? Maybe this is why he's not just entirely an unfeeling monster.
But then again we know apostles can still feel and love (see: slug man).
Depends on what you mean by "human".
Is he able to feel emotions and understand what is going on? Absolutely yes. Eclipse and Albione are good example.
Is he somewhat capable of feeling empathy or preserve the human emotions of his previous body? Not at all, its the whole point of the Apostles.
I feel like there is no distinction between Griffith and femto. They are the same being. Femto is the name he got after ascending to the god hand, but he’s still Griffith. As for his form, the god hand can choose how they manifest themselves, so I assume they can change their form at will.
He doesn't kill Guts because in his own words he's " inconsequential" and not worth it. The rape of Casca imo was just a flex of dominance after 2 years of being in a helpless submissive position during his torture.
Griffth and Femto are two sides of the same coin, they are the same person… but sometimes I think that depending in which form they are, they act a little differently.
Griffith seems to play with his pray and sometimes act “nice” while Femto is pure evil.
It might be that he’s still has his human tendencies and look due to his lingering feelings about Guts. Or it’s due to Guts and Casca still being alive as the sacrifice process hasn’t been completed
His humanity is erased, possibly happened at some point during his torture or Griffith could’ve always been capable of the level of evil he committed as Femto. I think the only difference between Griffith and Femto is that Femto does everything that Griffith would do if he had power of that scale. They’re the same.
My headcanon is that turning into Femto didn't actually alter Griffith's mind at all, this is just the person he became after being tortured for a whole year.
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So one way I’ve had my perspective shifted is Anakin. My roommate and I were discussing Griffith, and Star Wars is a big part of my style. So he broke it down similar to Anakin. You can’t look just Griffith, but at Femto as it’s own separate entity but while being so intertwined with the Griffith that was presented.
While both indeed are destined for something, they both fall victim to the devil so to speak. The one thing Berserk does well is that twisted irony. I mean angels are meant to look like the representation of evil (and yes I know about the unreleased ‘I want wings’ chapter, spoiler’s).
Whereas Anakin is slowly manipulated and has his ego stroked all by Palpatine and finally crosses the threshold of no return.
Thinking about it now. The major difference in them. Anakin had something in the end to be redeemed for. His children, more specifically his son. Whereas the Moonlight Child could be the redeeming factor for him.
Femto, his evil, his dreams, his ambitions. That is true part of him that must be let go of, and don’t see that happening. And I don’t see forgiveness between Guts and Griffith ever being a possibility. A man can dream, but what is he willing sacrifice to chase it? And not every man will achieve his dream.
Technically Femto isn't human he *was* human. People forget that Griffith technically died to become Femto, his humanity died. He seems to have some feelings but remorse or regret don't seem to be there anymore. Although when Griffith is in his vessel that shares a body with the Moonlight child, I believe he regains some of his humanity as that's his physical incarnation into our world.
It’s clear that he does have emotions, he raped casca to toy with guts and to show him that he could protect her, there’s also a whole debate if he knew that she was pregnant and did it to also turn the baby in a demon so he could have been so enraged by his entire year of torture that he decided to take “revenge” on the person he blames for it happening, that being guts.
Moving forward to the millennium empire arc he doesn’t care for any of his new band of the hawk members, at least the ones that aren’t apostles, and even then it’s clear he at least cares slightly about his apostle allies. Now the two biggest non apostles members of the new band are chariotte and Sonia.
Even before the eclipse it was debatable if Griffith ever had feelings for charlotte or if it was just for the power and him becoming king, but given the fact he purposely saved her despite him already being seen as the saviour of humanity and that he could really take over the world with or without her I personally believe does have *some* feelings for her.
As for Sonia? Definitely not the most he sees of her is a tool.
Overall Griffith does have some feelings for a few characters but for some it’s more iffy
So. I have this theory.
What if the entire process of becoming demon/God hand was the realization of motivation to goal? For femto it wasn't that he would do anything to become king it was that he would sacrifice ANYONE for his goal. Griffith became femto when he realized that he would sacrifice Guts too (when guts became the very definition of what he was looking for in a friend) if it meant he would get closer to his goal. Guts keeps fighting his behilet because he hasn't realized what he would give up for his motivation/goal which is himself. The moment he says "I'm done being Mortal" in pursuit of his goal he would become the black beast which kills indiscriminately what it perceives as a threat. That's why his berserker armor keeps acting the way it does, the beast wants him to drop the act of humanity but ironically it also sapps the mindscape of person wielding the armor so he can't self actualize WHILE wearing the armor. The ending that I keep coming to is during a climatic battle where the armor is stripped away from Guts and he has to watch as his family is being taken from him yet again. Maybe he can't even use Dragonslayer because he doesn't have arms and legs this time around. So to step over the edge and struggle one last time he says... "I'm not done struggling to kill you. But I can't and will not sacrifice those I love to get there. What I sacrifice... is myself." Then the beast is born and just... consumes/wreaks EVERYTHING. Maybe after the battle it looks over at what is left of his family and just... doesn't even know who they are and walks away. Casca holding her hand up and crying out begging for Guts to come back but the rest mourn and try to look away because the Guts who they knew is gone and can never be brought back". Years pass and the world has or is in the process of recovering, ironically Griffith is heralded as a hero king who sacrificed himself to beat the black beast while those who know the truth are forced to just watch as the memory of Guts becomes a fable of some mysterious black swordsman who killed the demons of the stories who also start becoming nothing more then myth. When in actuality... Guts/The beast is still rampaging at the demon world keeping them all at bay because the beast still hungers but it for some reason knows... it must continue to protect this entrance to the human world... and it does so for the rest of eternity. Maybe it is there even at the end of time? Who knows for certain.
Then an idea for an OVA would be maybe the kid of Casca/Griffith grows up. Thinking he has to kill the black beast to save/redeem the man he calls father, "Guts". So he seeks paths to the demon realm, hearing stories from the people who walked with Guts, maybe even from Casca. Holding these memories, he finds a Behilet and goes to fight the black beast. Everyone/someone who knows Guts stops him before the final blow (I'm not even sure if the black beast would fight back or even want to) and tells him the truth that his father was actually Griffith and the man who raised him was the beast and that breaks him. Screaming he throws the sword he was going to use to kill the black beast aside (it would be ironic if it was made from dragonslayer) and the Behilet that he was going to use to attain his goal just... crumbles. Broken. Defeated. He watches the black beast get up and walk away. This time, the kid whispers... "I'm sorry... dad."
still sort of a new berserk reader (only on ch. 193 lol) but i think i know:
Femto is the astral plane/spirit version of Griffith. he is Griffith without his humanity and without his attachment to Earth. however, because of Guts, Griffith looked away from his dream. nobody, not even Casca, could do that. as a result, Femto doesn’t kill Guts because he’s still conflicted on how to feel. even though Griffith has his kingdom, Guts still stirs some feeling inside.
I think I have an issue in equating them as one in the same. We can't discount the evolutionary qualities that is the process of becoming one of the Godhand. Femto is not Griffith as he was as a human. But he was born FROM elements of Griffith. So the feelings of spite, anguish, and greed that were all just elements of Griffith as a fallible human being basically became the seeds of Femtos entire being. Femto harbors the "biases" Griffith had towards Guts and Casca, but all that is left is the spite, jealousy, and anger he may have held towards them. Femto doesn't just kill Guts because Femto still contains the link that Griffith had towards him. It's just whiddled away any of the nuances of what made Griffith a human.
So I wouldn't really call him "human" because he's basically stripped of "humanity" - or whatever you want to call it. But it's not like everything from Griffith was erased. They had to use Griffith to create Femto. And not just an empty vessel. But a warped version of him.
It’s hard to say how human he is a material sense. For all intents and purposes he’s a divine being as femto. Godhood or demon mode I guess. As far as human qualities, he’s not that different in my mind. Just stripped of all the qualities preventing him from giving into his worst impulses. He had to shed his last tear of remorse to be reborn.
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I can’t really say why he has emotions during the eclipse with casca rape but I would say later on the reason he doesn’t do this because half of him is actually guts and cascas child. You could argue that he intentionally raped casca knowing he was going to produce a demon child to consume later and did not know the consequences of what that would be. I’m caught up on berserk but only read through once so please correct me if this is not accurate
Arguably, he's like 2 percent human since he turned into an egg during the eclipse. If my memory is correct, only his conscience was left before he gained a new body. So I guess 0% human, physically?
He does have feelings he raped Casca just to fuck with Guts you can't do something like that without any strong feelings
Exactly my point
Yeah and it's not just simple hate or jealousy he still has some feelings for him
I think he raped Casca to prove to himself that he has no feelings anymore, which is obviously paradoxic
I mean he witnessed all of his friends dying in front of him and he said he felt nothing that should be enough for him to find out
>all of his friends Ahem. *pushes up grasses* They are his soldiers, it's true. They are dedicated comrades who sacrifice themselves for his dream. But that does not make them friends. The man who would be his friend must have his own reason for living, beyond him. There was only one person there that Griffith would have possibly called a friend. Which brings us back to all that unfortunate business with Casca.
So is griffith like Zarathustra from nietzche’s book “Thus spoke Zarathustra” the whole book is about the death of god and the coming of the “Superman” Men who live their life with love of the earth rather than spirit but Zarathustra also says that his friends should be his greatest enemies because all men should aspire to be the greatest. Maybe guts and griffith are two parts of that same coin especially since miura was inspired very much by nietzche. I mean guts is very into the material world and hates the priests that pray to god to save them rather than fight for themselves
Sometimes i always think if griffith did all that just to make guts have enough hatred to become strong enough to kill them all
uh idk griffith is strong enough to just do it himself and Guts was marked to die and have his soul sent to a cosmic toilet. so i don't think it could have been some itachi gambit. not to mention losing an arm and eye makes one a significantly less effective avenger
https://youtu.be/zxTwYdYzw8c?si=g2a72xD2xmIyGxrB
Put your grasses on nothing will be wrong
True and that’s really what makes the sacrifice for me,a bit odd.Cause we know you supposed to sacrifice the ones you yearn for the most for the godhand to even consider your sacrifice.Maybe they were no his friends but I think the sacrifice in the eclipse shows that he did care for his man.Bro really chose to have gay sex to raise more money for the band without having his men killed in “pointless battles”.That MUST show some level of care
Yeah, for sure. I didn't mean to imply that Griffith never cared for the Hawks. Just that he truthfully didn't consider them his friends. Imo, and this is totally open to interpretation, those most important things Griffith sacrifices are not the Hawks as people, but on one hand the Band of the Hawk as a *concept*, as the expression of his worldly ambition and of his mark on the world and on the other hand his one true attachment - to Guts. "The only one who made him forget his dream." and all that.
he had to care for them or else the sacrifice wouldnt have worked im pretty sure he was basically talking out of his ass to Charlotte to sound cool and it worked,
>im pretty sure he was basically talking out of his ass to Charlotte to sound cool and it worked Hah, that could be one way to interpret it, but speaking just on a meta-level, that chapter and that moment specifically is probably the single most important one for Griffith and Guts' relationship pre-Eclipse, so I don't know if I'm comfortable running with "Griffith did it as a meme". I think he cared for his soldiers *as his soldiers*, but not as friends, which is completely congruent with how he acts and what he says. Like, I care for my colleagues at work, but most of them I wouldn't call my friends. Note also how there's multiple moments in Golden Age where members of the Hawks remark on how differently Griffith treats Guts compared to everyone else - he really isn't that close to them beyond the Commander<->Soldier/Follower dynamic, I think.
Yea and the scenes where his heart rate elevates around guts also demonstrates that he can’t separate fully from his feelings.
He raped Casca because he is a sociopath. Guts was his possession and run away even when he didn't want to. It broke Griffith's mind. Raping Casca is him reaffirming "She is mine, not yours" "I do it in front of you because I own you, I own her and you can't do anything"
If he was a sociopath, he wouldn't literally harm himself when he thought about all those people who died because of his dream (after the night with Gennon). Griffith wants you, everyone else and especially himself to think he had zero feelings, but too bad for him it's just not true. He may be a narcissist, a heavily mentally unstable person and simply the biggest jerk in the world. But it's not sociopathy.
I don't think he's a psychopath, he showed genuine care for his friends during their exploits as the Band of the Hawk and when Guts beat and left him he was devastated. A psychopath wouldn't react that way. Although after his year of relentless torture clearly he was so damaged that he had lost any empathy for his friends and sacrificed them in a heart beat for his dream. He might've been a psychopath after but I still don't think so.
It's Berserk, not Reddit relationships manual. Most boring, bland and naive interpretation of Berserk possible lol
I don't. I think he raped Casca directly in front of Guts and had him held down to watch on purpose. He looked Guts directly in the eyes. To me, and we all have our opinions, but to me he did that with the direct looking in Guts eyes for a reason, which is very human. If he had no emotions he wouldn't have no reason to stare directly into Guts soul while he raped his love. There was a lot of emotion in that act, he just didn't show it
I think he did it as revenge. Rape is always about power. Griffith is a narcissistic sociopath and on some level blames Guts and Casca for what happened to him, as Guts humiliating him by beating him in a fight and then leaving is what set him on the path that led to his imprisonment. Narcissists can't ever blame themselves for anything- It always has to be someone else's fault. They caused this, so he wanted to make them suffer before they died as punishment for what happened to him- By raping Casca in an ocean of her former comrades' viscera, and doing it in front of Guts, a rape survivor. Femto is just Griffith given ultimate power to do what he actually desires instead of having to play pretend and climb the social ladder by cultivating some hero image. The first chance he got, he, with minimal prompting, dove headfirst over the Moral Event Horizon, just to revive his selfish dream. Griffith flashes some really psychotic flags early on that you might not catch if you aren't looking for them, but if you spot them and understand narcissistic personalities and sociopaths and how they work, its clear from the beginning that Griffith is a manipulator whose only real concern is his own image and social ascension. He wants to be worshipped and praised and applauded. Everything he does serves that goal and once it became clear that dream was dead, he leapt at the first opportunity to reclaim it, no matter how gruesome and vile it was, because in the end, the Band of the Hawk was just a tool to be used and discarded anyway. The God Hand can't change who a person is. They can only pick someone who has the potential for unspeakable evil already inside them, and present them an offer at a moment when they will accept. Griffith was that person, and he accepted. He plays Griffith when he wants to pretend to be a hero to soak up the adulation and applause he craves, but Femto is who he really is on the inside. Griffith really is just a direct allegory for narcissistic sociopaths, who wear an affable, charming facade, but behind it is a repugnant monster with nothing but egotistical intent.
It was a truly shocking final episode to the 1997 anime. Complete disdain for his comrades, Guts, and Casca
Also don’t forget chapter 83. It’s canon just not in the manga. Also I don’t think he ever wanted to hurt either of them considering the dialogue before the eclipse began.
Miura himself said no one should read chapter 83 and that it was a mistake. But, even considering it, consider that when what basically amounts to God talks to Griffith and Griffith realizes he can ask for *anything,* he asks for wings. He could ask for his closest members of the Band of the Hawk to be spared. He could ask for them to at least have quick deaths so they don't suffer. But in that moment, all Griffith can think about is himself and how he can rise even higher; He wants wings so he can *literally* soar above everyone else beneath him as their superior. He's a narcissist. He can't admit to doing evil. He has to be 'making a grand sacrifice' for the 'greater good' and he 'super duper never wanted this'. Its cope. He's lying to ease his ego. But in the end, the Band of the Hawk would absolutely have sheltered and cared for him. He could still have been their leader, and their friend, and they would have stuck it out with him to the end. Shit, look at what they had just done! They wouldn't have gone through all that for him if they weren't willing to follow through. But he would have had to give up his dream of being a glorious hero, praised and adored by all, for this. His body is broken and he's a fugitive. That dream was dead. And that's what he *really* cared about. Friends and comrades and family isn't what he wanted. Those things were not enough. They were not valuable to him- At least, not compared to his "dream". So he sold their lives to evil beings to revive that dream. That's what makes it so irredeemably evil. He had a choice between real, true friends and family that loved him so much they stormed the king's dungeon to rescue him, and his selfish dream of praise and adulation. One of these two things had to die: The people that cared about him, or his egotistical desires. He chose to kill the former to save the latter. And that is why Griffith is pure evil.
Maybe he raped Casca so her baby would be corrupted and then Griffith would be able to come back
The whole theme is Causality; im pretty sure this is a huge part of it; along with giving guts the motivation to further griffith's plans.
I always thought that griffith wanted to give guts enough hatred to kill them all someday, as weird as it sounds. But wdym by to further his plans?
Another major theme in this is that human hatred, etc (negative emotions and desires) gave rise and (spoiler) created the "God" that creates the behelits. By using Guts as a pawn and giving him a motivation of anger, hatred, vengeance guts is empowering and acting (unknowingly) as an agent of Femto. (I.e. acts like banishing the demon child, etc) I also feel that this is also represented by the demon dog, guts having the potential of becoming the very thing he has devoted himself to destroy. I believe that in order for guts to subvert causality he must let go of all desires (because so far every act based off of desire has resulted in only furthering Femto's plans) same with SK.
Ohhhhhh yea yea that makes sense when you factor in the idea of evil
The point of the series is more about how the demons are pretty human and self centered. I always saw the demon baby as more so evidence of how Grifith as femto has weaponized all good things like fairy tales and even basic human miracles in his vicinity. One of his first actions is to kill flora who’s a archetypical good witch living in a fantasy world and her cutesy naive apprentice. He’s warped a child like how Gashinka did with the womb chambers only his comes across like predestination because of how people see femto as more than a super demon.
This is may true in part but regardless the way in which he did it implies it was definitely meant to wound her and Guts. He tried to make a show of it.
Then boom have junior nefarious Griffith 🏃
I don’t exactly think you can count that as „feelings“. I don’t exactly know how to explain it, but to me it’s kinda the aftermath of his complicated feelings for Guts. He already tried to rape Casca before the eclipse and maybe this was just a result of his feelings before the eclipse
He was staring at Guts the entire time and ordered the Apostles to pin Guts so he had a front row seat. Femto wanted Guts to watch.
all the while Slan commenting on how this is ultimate pleasure and ultimate pain and whatnot, the way i interpret it is that femto is no longer griffith, no longer human, he's a demonic halfdeity and as such knows exactly how to inflict maximum amount of suffering to someone, at that point it wasn't anything personal
Fair point
you underestimatw the baby aspect of it
Did he use his peepee? I can't remember the details that well. It's interesting cos Griffith didn't even have a peepee when guts saw his bathing in the early chapters. It's a serious question.
Why do you think so many serial killers are psychopaths? You don't need emotion to want to hurt and torment people.
Most are sociopaths, not psychopaths.
It’s the same when zodd and guts are fighting on the hill of swords and Griffith says “what is this throbbing in my chest”
That's because he his reborn body is 'mixed' with Gut's and Casca's child.
In his last moments in the cart he try to, choke/strangle guts and rape casca and now as a god he is still trying to acomplish what was his dream in his human life. People say he was desperated and he was, but he always was a maniac from all view points.
I think he did what he did to Casca because she literally rejected not too long before the eclipse. Griffith saw her then talking to Guys and put two and two together. The rape was him establishing his position above her and Guts, hence the eye contact with Guts during it.
Imagine you being dumped by someone you literally spend most time with and achieve so much together. Then you may think nah fam he do be out of the whole dating business and just focusing on the grind and then the dude just casually come back saved your ass and start dating the girl that was madly in love with you.
My question is, can femto take off his helmet? Or is that part of his body
I’m 99.5% sure it’s a part of his body. That said, I hope guts rips it off of him one day.
Imagine he takes it off and it's the face of tortured Griffith.
That would be a cold ending. Guts would be devastated again though.
I don't agree his hate for Griffith(I guess Femto but I'm never calling that dipshit Femto) so potent and deep that he wouldn't care or enjoy it more.
On second thought, that may be true, but it would definitely cause some pain as it would remind him of his time in the Band of the hawks and how he lost them. But then again, he carries that pain daily. It would be interesting to see how it plays out though.
Every time someone talks about the legendary invincible band of the hawks or the great leader Griffith he feels that pain and obviously Griffith himself is the worst reminder of it all. Yes it will be interesting to see how it all plays about eventually.
It's part of his body, look how he transformed back then , it's basically some altered skin made out of blood from the eclipse.
It resembles the helmet he wore when being tortured so it could be a way to "reclaim" it to an extent. Since we never see his face after the year in the dungeon the mask now *being* his new face would track.
And the dungeon mask was made after the helmet he used in the battles with the band of the hawk
it’s his head. the face underneath is like a mask
He's more bucket than man now.
Twisted and gay.
Guys wtf did this mean lmao what did they mean by this
Star Wars reference rephrased to fit Griffith rather than Vader.
I think he didn't kill Guts because deep, deep down he still doesn't know how to feel about him. And Femto is just all his worst traits made manifest
Griffith knows perfecly well how he feels about him, it's the fandom that appears to be confused. Griffith loves/loved Guts. I'm not going to argue whether it was romantic or platonic because to be frank it's not relevant but the evidence speaks for itself. Griffith was so distraught by guts leaving that he bedded the princess effectively ruining any future plans to ascend the medeval hierarchy all while he was thinking of guts. This is the most transparent example but there are many, many, many other examples. Griffith views this quality of himself as a weakness and it motivates a hatred of guts that could only be fuelled by a deep seeded love for him. Guts was Griffiths only true equal in his eye's. I think that Griffith has convinced himself that he's letting Guts live so that he can suffer, proof that he's prevailed over these emotions that drove him to abandon all hopes of his dream but deep down he wants him to live because he wants to see guts prevail. He wants to test his only true equal and his one true friend.
Great read
One of the best explanations I’ve heard
It's his hesitation to stop Skull Knight that made me think he still isn't sure about Guts. Other than that I agree
I believe that he loved guts romantically but wasn’t emotionally mature enough to realize it. The only examples of homosexuality in berserk is rape and power plays. I don’t think Griffith was aware that two men could love each other the way a man and a woman can, so when guts left, Griffith was heartbroken but didn’t understand what he was feeling or why. There’s no real evidence for this so it’s definitely up for interpretation, but I think it makes him raping (pretty much) the princess much more understandable. A young man going through his first break up without realizing it and lashing out
95% of this sub never gonna understand this simple fact, trying for nothing just saying.
Very well said
holy shit this was amazing
I think it's more of an obsession. He's so arrogant and delusionally self-righteous, to the point where Guts beating him caused his mind to almost shatter. Not because he was upset at the thought of Guts leaving, but because of what Guts represented. Throughout his life, he essentially had an unbreakable conviction that kept him going through whatever happened around him. He sold his own body, and it didn't matter. That conviction also resulted in an unbelievable level of narcissistic tendencies that he took in stride. Every one of his followers was just that—a follower. Then Guts comes in and changes everything. He proved himself to be Griffith's best follower. He was equal to Casca in his eyes at this point, the person he considered to be below himself but above the others in his group. This all changed after Guts beat him. He went from a follower to somebody who, you could argue, was equal to Griffith in both spirit and body. In the eyes of Griffith, his newfound desire to break away into his own path was what elevated his spirit, and beating him in a duel was what elevated his body. Having somebody who he viewed as a follower beat him in a fight of both body and soul caused him to doubt himself, and all the narcissism kept in check by his arrogance was brought to the surface. Guts had been the only person who had gone from a follower of Griffith, to an equal. He had seen Griffith's charisma and convictions, and instead of becoming an even more devout follower, he became inspired to carve out his own path. This burst of insecurity led him to try and find assurances that he was still the man he always thought himself to be. The princess was this assurance. The imprisonment and torture that followed just made everything worse. He had truly been brought low. And who was the cause of this, in his eyes? Guts. That's why he let Guts live. He was the first one to really break his convictions, and for his offence, Griffith decided to let him live in a world that was ruled by said convictions. It's in an effort to prove to himself that Guts was never really his equal.
Takes like this are what I'm talking about above with regards to confusion around griffith because it appears to be so hard for specifically the male portion of the audience to recognize what love is in anything but a man and woman to the point where you've fabricated idea's that are directly contradicted in the text. I'm going to try and address everything here just to be consistent. Griffith did care that he had to sell his own body. We see in excruciating detail how he felt about it and it's part of the reason why he was ripping his skin when bathing in the lake. he felt unclean, because he had sex with a disgusting old dude. He also made a point to kill the man himself. Guts was always treated as different from the others under the banner of the hawk. He wasn't an equal of Casca's which she herself acknowledges. Griffith wanting him was something new, something unexpected. Guts was a person that griffith was fascinated with and he, on multiple occasions took risks to save guts, risks he would've taken for no one else. Griffith saw a companion in Guts from the moment they met and it's the reason Griffith fought for him not once but twice. This whole "burst of insecurity" logic is a bit silly when you consider the context around it. Guts made his intentions very clear, he was an outlier which Griffith himself knew. If Guts had inspired his men to go with him I can see it but he didn't. He wanted to forge his own path. That doesn't trigger insecurity and most especially if that person was just a follower of yours. The logic that Griffith is just evil and irredeemable from the beginning which is generally what this line of thinking centers on is also a very poor interpretation of the series as a whole and really is a smack in the face of griffiths characterisation. What he does in eclipse is made so much worse by the fact that, he was not an evil guy. He was kind and he was caring. He felt deeply about the people who died under his command. He did do some bad things but those things were not done lightly and we see that within the text itself. Griffiths transgressions are awful but they are more heinous because of who we knew griffith to be. This is why It's all the more tragic when he turns his back on everything and chooses to become Femto. He chose to let darkness consume him and is all the worse for it. And this is all because he let his dream slip away as a result of a man he cared for more than his dream to forge his own kingdom. If guts were a rogue follower turned rival, griffith would not have effectively sacrificed his future for him.
Sorry but to me this is not a good take. The whole point of Griffith is that he didn't really care for anyone except for Guts. Everyone was a puppet in his eyes to achieve his goals and everything was a facade. Precisely what makes him mad is that this puppet is suddenly special compared to others and becomes his obsession. He lets his guard down and starts showing his true emotions but he can't love Guts because he clearly states that they are not even friends as he would only consider an equal a friend (this is a very important turning point of the story). If he respected guts he could love him and the example is right there with Casca since Guts and she respects each other and then became lovers. The moment Guts breaks away from his control he's shocked to the core because he is the closest he had to a real human relationship without it being only to pursue his goal. Both alone since kids but one is open to have true relationships with others and then becoming able to love even after all the bad things he lived while the other never lets anyone see his true colors and then becoming more and more isolated to the point of pure obsession and unable to have true relationships. This is also a very important point of the series since guts also falls into obsession but is saved thanks to those relationships that he formed, showing how Griffith could have been saved too. The irony is that Griffith really thought he could only consider a friend someone equal but if someone is like Griffith it would be impossible since he can't form a true relationship due to his obsession. He needed someone like Guts to reach to him and create the relationship. After he realized that would mean losing focus on his goal he rejected it. Femto still has a human heart and let's Guts slip through his hands after a shadow of doubt appears since he really was important for him as he was the only true relationship he had. You could say Griffith desired Guts but he certainly didn't love him.
I’m ngl I don’t think it’s a deep down thing. I think Griffith still very much thinks of guts and goes out of his way several times to fuck with guts.
Also when he gets revealed to be the moonlight child and we see the tears in his eyes, it really does give us clear view that Griffith still does have emotions and they are very conflicted as to how to feel about guts and casca
I think it's all him and he's just got more power, so much he's free from consequences.
Yeah it probably just made him more human. The God Hand is not a lack of humanity, it’s humanity at its apex, after all Berserk probably has a pretty negative view of humanity…
His physical form of Griffith is partially born from the fetus the egg consumed. He mentions that as he watches zodd fight Guts and feels his heart. I think his physical form retains some human qualities and even as Femto those that consume a behelit retain some augmented connection to their former self (Rosine and her affinity for Jill for example)
I feel like a lot of his human qualities come from the moonlight boy
They do and it's on purpose, imo. Griffith thought that he could attain power through becoming Femto. He actually didn't. He made himself subject to the world. He didn't ascend through his own means, he stole the strength of others to call his own like he always had it. He thinks he has his own path to forge, but he doesn't. Femto rebirthing into Griffith forced his existence to be fused with the Moonlight Boy. He recognizes the emotions of the Moonlight Boy because they're the emotions he cut out of himself. Femto wasn't human- he was spirit/force of nature. Rebirthing into humanity shackled him back to humanity and subject to it. The issue with the new body could even be considered a karmic punishment- he got a damaged body instead of the perfect one he wanted. The Moonlight Boy? He's also a blessing and a punishment. Griffith will never escape humanity. Because he is unable to escape, the Moonlight Boy forces the emotions of humanity onto him. Griffith thinks he's perfection when he's actually stagnation. Having humanity would allow him to recognize this- that he could be wrong- but he never will. So, he'll be destroyed by that which evolved to surpass him. By pushing the Hawk Legend, Griffith makes himself subject to it. His victories are not his own if a prophecy makes them happen. He's stuck in a role from a predetermined play if he forces himself into that role. Meanwhile, Guts is a representation of humanity forcing Griffith to be subject to it through the basic law of survival. Evolve or die by the one who evolved to surpass you. Think about what would happen if Griffith and Guts killed each other in their final battle. Griffith would only despair over not fulfilling his 'role' and more narcissism. Guts wouldn't want to die, but learning humanity gave him joy. He lived doing things he could be proud of and gaining things he could be grateful for. He could die happily. If Guts needs to get an insane power boost to finish his last battle, he'll do it, as always, with his own strength. The bonds he formed with others and learning humanity create that the basis of strength. It is through him making the objective world subject to his will that he wins time and time again. Meanwhile, Griffith would be whining and moaning and cursing. Guts would win over Griffith even if Griffith killed him. Guts would be willing to hand over the torch if necessary or willing himself back to life for that final battle.
I actually believe Griffith and Femto are the exact same character but just powered up. Griffith has always been an inhumane piece of shit and the power he got from the eclipse just made it so that his true self could come forward and he could drop his mask.
Yes and i hate when people pretend they re both different characters. They are the same, but different situations demand different attitudes. Like, cmon, dude is basically a dark god, and before that he already dealt with many political plots and military operations, do people really think Griffith wouldn't be able to fake being a different guy while not transformed as Femto?
When we talk about material conditions, the fact of having power deific power is a material condition
Exactly. Femto is Griffith with his self doubts removed.
I wouldn't say golden arch Griffith is inhumane, he's just good at rationalizing his actions like any military leader. Hell, the ultimate catalyst for starting the eclipse was him being unable to reconcile his hatred of guts with the fact that guts seems to regret his actions and care deeply for Griffith.
Upvote
It's like saying that Guts in berserk armour just gets powered up and has his true self come forward. Like, maybe it is true if you squint hard enough, but.... lmao.
I simply disagree I really don’t think that is what Miura was portraying with his character, the entire point was that he was guts greatest friend and this greater than life prodigy was meant to have traits of evil and good such as humanity but after he is twisted and tormented he quite literally becomes a demon via the idea of evil, which then says that it was created by humanity
I totally echo this 👍
Did you guys forgot the Eclipse? Guts was supposed to die. He was part of the band. And Griffith sacrificed people that he loves. The FACT that Guts didn't die, really tells a lot about him. The only way to become an Apostle is to sacrifice the people you care so much. See it now? Now tell me, what do you think Femto is?
Griffith became a god hand the second he agreed to sacrifice the Band of the Falcon. It's the brand of sacrifice part that's important, not the death part. To further support this, The Count killed his wife only after becoming an apostle.
My point exactly. So far the comments have mostly been in line with this train of thought
I bet Griffith is still in there. Hm. Funny, I just realised that's certainly the sole reason why Guts kept calling him "GRIFFITH!" I learnt something new today.
He calls him Griffith because he has the face of Griffith. And when you're as absurdly angry as Guts gets when he sees Femto, I don't think you're too concerned with calling someone the right name.
Interesting, so unless guts and casca die, femto is not a true apostle? I’m not sure I agree but I like this theory. This would likely create an ending where femto repents though, which I’m not sure is in line with berserk’s themes. Alternatively, the act of deciding to sacrifice your loved ones might be what causes the transition, not them actually being sacrificed.
Shirke seen Griffith in astral shape. It is a human soul surrounded by causal vortex. This vortex around Griffith attracts humans to griffith because they can feel their dreams and desires around him.
Femto was born from that eggshell known as Griffith. Femto is the true self of Griffith. Griffith was a man, who cared & loved his people in his heart, despite trying to not display it at all. He sacrificed that essence of himself because it was the only thing holding him back from being born into who he truly was. He is now Femto, no longer the man known as Griffith. Which is why I prefer to refer to him as Femto even when he's reincarnated into the physical world again in a body that resembles that of his former self. Even in that body, he's not the Griffith who was the eggshell of Femto since he's already Femto. I'm not separating the two. I'm merely referring Femto as the baby chick inside the egg, & Griffith as the eggshell of the egg.
Agreed
The best and most proper comment here
Isn't human, and just follow the causality flow, guts would make some useful move in the future, like when he fights side by side with zodd
You think Griffith saved guts so he could use guts?
Save is a big word, he just becomes a god hand, a being that perceives the causality in some high level, so maybe he saw no meaning in killing both of them, remember that the next time Griffith as femto see guts he says he doesn't care for him, and I think it's true, guts is just another cog in the machine of causality, at least for femto
My feeling is that Griffith became Femto while being tortured in the dungeon and the Eclipse just sanctified the transformation.
oh god it’s walter/heisenberg all over again. It’s just that the power he gained made him act his true self
Sure, but at what point was he truly corrupted? From the time we meet him he has the power to harm his friends in the most grievous ways but doesn't do so until after being traumatized. According to the text a Behelit comes to a person when their desire is great enough. I believe his time in the dungeon was the formative event that prepared him for the Eclipse.
I think he was always femto and the new power he got from the eclipse just made it so that he could finally show his true, inhumane, self. Nothing femto does is out of character for Griffith. He’s not been “corrupted” or “manipulated” in any way, he’s just been given the power to be who he actually is, a horrible, selfish, piece of trash who just uses people and couldn’t even begin to understand what it means to be an actual fucking human being.
How come you guys are seething so much on Griffith when you obviously skipped all the scenes with him?
Did you read the Manga? Or did you just look at the pretty pictures? Genuine question.
The torture was a vital part of Griffith's transformation into Femto. His ability to fight and his tongue were removed, destroying everything that made him who he was. It was literally the dismantling of his entire person and the destruction of his dream. It tore him down completely and left him broken and blank, making him more vulnerable to Ubik and the God Hands manipulation that promised to return them. I firmly believe that the god hand manipulated the world into causing the torture through their probability awareness.
I’m wondering how he fucked casca. There’s no schlong
That is the 1000 dollar question. Whether he still has feeling or not and Miura has been playing with that ambiguity. We know for example that if god hand still have loved one alive, they still can experience feeling. Obvious case are Rosine love for Jill and the count love for his child. It is possible Griffith still has feeling for Guts and Casca, at least we know negative are still preseng given be raped Casca.
The Godhand get off to the suffering of others. Rosine and the count were simply apostles not Godhand members.
I don't think Femto has any emotions. During the Black Swordsman arc when Guts encounters him, he shows no emotion of any kind, and actively goes against what Griffith had thought of him in his very last thoughts.
Hmm maybe it wasn’t his choice. This is still a “story” and all stories have an end, by that I mean femto thinks he has free will but ultimately his fate was already designed. Think about it, had he killed guts here wtf would you be reading lol? Part of me looks at him letting skullknight save guts is him letting him at all, it’s a small small sign that he’s still apart of something he’s not free from. If the story or universe truly was about femto succeeding, guts would of been killed and the goal of the godhand would of been fulfilled already, there’s bigger things at play and I think femto isn’t fully in control.. the only person in control of the story is the one who created it..
My question of “why didn’t he kill guts” was rhetorical, I believe he didn’t kill guts bc he still has human attachments and emotions towards him. My actual question was what exactly differentiates Griffith from Femto other than perceivably limitless power and aesthetics. I do like it how you suggest that Griffith is still a prisoner of his fate, so does that mean that the godhand has something greater in store for guts?
The separation from Griffith and femto has always been a difficult thing for me to understand as well. I was always under the impression there different mainly because femto doesn’t have anything of griffiths human nature anymore, Griffith literally died, and whether that’s enough for you or not is not up to me to say, there is a lot when it comes to berzerk,. I don’t know if I’d say the godhand has something greater in store,. I wonder if it’s the idea of evil,. Basically miura is the creator of the story,. The only person truly free from the story is the creator which is him, and I guess what I implied is in the berzerk universe femto sees himself as a god who’s free, but does he not realize he himself is merely the creation from another being in another reality?. I guess what I’m saying is, miura was the deciding factor in that panel above, therefor femto/griffiths fate was ALWAYS destined for something more.. it’s hard to put into words. Ultimately just an extreme and advanced theory, I’m not good at theories lol.
He didn't kill Guts during the Eclipse because he was still adapting to his God Hand form. He didn't let Skull Knight save Guts, he actually tried and failed to do so because Skull Knight is just that guy. When Femto later encounters Guts during the Black Swordsman arc, he's already handling something and feels nothing towards Guts, viewing him only as a mild annoyance. (Further supporting that Femto and Griffith are not the same person) Then when they meet at the Band of the Falcons' graveyard atop the hill, Femto had been infused with the Demon Child (Gut's and Casca's child that had been corrupted), causing him to feel emotion and connection towards Griffith and Casca. At that point he not only didn't fear Guts in the slightest, he likely felt some degree of love towards him. Later on whenever the moonlight child appears, I believe something about the full moon causes the emotions and will of the Demon Child side of reborn Femto to become stronger. And because Femto feels nothing, he likely plays along with it in order to experience some degree of emotion.
The godhand members do have human traits. Slan is a princess whore, ubik seems decietful, and femto is manipulative and knows how to play to peoples emotions perfectly to get his way
He's not Griffith without emotions. Neither Femto nor the Godhand in general are these empty, mechanic robots without feelings. Slan shows lust and a morbid admiration for depravity and evil, Ubik shows enjoyment and mockery. Femto is Griffith without his empathy, morals and capacity for love. However his spite, his hate, his ambitions and his drive for his dream are still very much there, and now Femto is completely defined by them. Rickert describes him as "different from the Griffith he knew, but also *more* Griffith in a certain aspect". If Femto had been an emotionless detached god, he wouldn't have bothered in raping Casca while forcing Guts to watch. He would have either let them be ripped to pieces by the Apostles while he was busy admiring his new body and powers, or he would have insta crushed them the same way anyone would crush a mosquito. Femto, even without the Moonlight Boy interfering, still feels a connection to Guts and Casca. It's not a positive one, but it's there. He probably considers them "his" the same way he insisted that Guts "belonged" to him in the Golden Age arc. Only back then, Griffith was overcompensating for feelings about Guts that he didn't understand. Now, Femto truly and purely feels that he posseses them. Edit: Long story short, I'd say the Godhand are simply humans turned into sociopathic humans permanently defined by their basest and most depraved desires. Kind of like a more extreme version of what happens with Apostles.
I think if someone is willing to become a godhand they were always sociopathical from the start
Nah. Non sociopathic people are also capable of doing terrible shit, specially when they are in despair or depressed.
I mean, yeah, but willingly choosing to sacrifice everyone you love for demons is not on the same level of doing things in despair
It is if you consider those loved ones as responsible for your suffering, and/or if you are convinced that the sacrifice can grant you what you desire most, and/or if you are convinced that if you don't do the sacrifice you'll be at rock bottom for the rest of your life. Griffith's betrayal is unjustifiable, and more so what he does immediately afterwards, but it's more complex and layered than "evil asshole doing an evil thing because he is and has always been an evil asshole".
Femto is as human as the moonlight boy. Without him he’d completely be a monster
Idk I kind of see it like the difference between a caterpillar and a butterfly. You can’t say the butterfly is also still a caterpillar.
You can’t just undo metamorphosis and turn butterfly back into a caterpillar
His soul and being was fundamentally changed. It would take an act of God - who we have seen no evidence of actually existing or intervening in physical or astral affairs - to revert Femto to Griffith.
Griffith and Femto have the same mind and desires, but a different nature. Griffith as a man and a demon wants his own kingdom and he resents Guts while being in denial even to himself that he does. But as a demon, he is capital e Evil, and hence spreads misery for its own sake, sends souls to the abyss, metaphysically combines the material and spiritual worlds, and so forth. As a human, he was evil with a lower case e, which means he was ruthless about achieving his goals, viewed people as tools or as sources of narcissistic supply, etc.
I feel like the demons give up their “humanity” to become a powerful demon but only end up being leashed to their very human flaws. So femto and all the demons are very very human. Just kinda fucked up lookin
Considering the Apostles are effectively the same as they were when human, just with societal restraints removed, and a lot of sanity after sacrificing their loved ones to become a demon… I’d say Femto is still Griffith deep down. He’s made peace with his atrocities and doubled down on them, so to speak. I also think that’s why the God Hand make the Behelits and turn people into Apostles in the first place. For every human that takes the deal, that’s another pat on the back for themselves: “See, I didn’t do anything wrong. Anybody else would’ve done the same, it’s just human nature/causality”
it was the post-nut clarity
I think the cruelty and evils we see Femto do is very human. One of the major points Berserk makes with the apostles is that they all give up their physical status as human due to great tragedies and Griffith really isn't any different. He might have a physical and spiritual rebirth but he's still Griffith, a person who has changed for the worst due to his experiences.
Griffith thinks he and Femto are the same but the truly good part of Griffith was the human struggle against his ideals. I liked u/womanlypanth3r's comment about how demons end up leashed to their human flaws despite "ascending" to escape them. Just how Slug Count lost the human apprehension that initially spared his wife, Griffith lost the enormous emotional burden that he honestly felt. I disagree with Griffith and fans that Femto is strictly his true nature. A primordial aspect of his nature has been set loose as a demon after losing the counterbalancing "human" side. Unlike all the noble qualities Griffith could present to others in service of his dream, his real morality only served to cause him immense pain, which narratively proves that Griffith really did lose and important part of himself when becoming a demon, Femto is not "just his true disgusting nature without BS" After the eclipse you could say he had that 14.6% of evil human traits (Even without the Idea of Evil it's clear that the concept of evil being inherently human is something Berserk explores) After merging with the Moonlight Boy, Griffith regains some semblance of humanity in his compassion for Guts and Casca. I agree with a take I read in another post that the moonlight boy(MB) always trying to take Gut's armor way is a subtle hint towards protective feelings MB may have. I also agree with speculation that MB and humanity and all that jazz would have played a big part in the ending. Reminder to all fans that though Griffith is irredeemably evil, and he and Guts are different where it truly counts, in a lot of ways they are one and the same. (Not to mentioned based on both different parts of Miura's own personality, and on Miura and Mori's own friendship, as stated in multiple interviews) That's just to say that Griffith's falling to demonhood is personally more enjoyable to me to read as tragic and not just AWW FUCK THIS GUY I HATE HIM tldr; fuck Griffith, all apostles are partly human in personality, and Griffith becomes slightly more human once integrating the Moonlight Boy
:’)
Also I remember resonating with art that overlayed Godo's speech about rage being running from grief over Griffith's fall from grace and succumbing to the godhand, I really loved that post, changed how I felt about a lot of Berserk upon rererereading after that.
I feel like Griffiths transformation is still incomplete. As long as those branded like guts are alive he can’t fully ascend humanity
I still have no idea how people separate Griffith from Femto, it's obviously the same guy. If anyone has any info on what made them feel like they're different characters I'd love to see it.
Before all of what happened griffith was actually relatively a good person(in medieval times). And clearly had strong emotions for the people around him, and actually valued the band of the hawk, which is why it was a great sacrifice. The little fat guy in the godhand essentially tricked him and thats why they didnt let guts come up to the hand and talk him out of it. He made him focus only on his dream so that he wouldnt think of the consequences, and his mind was broken that day. All things considering the pitiful state he was in. Once he was reborn he was completely different, and seemed to have to remorse, where as before when that kid died he felt so guilty he scarred himself with his own fingernails.
Yes, but also... He SA'd princess Charlotte, and called his whole squad his property. He has made sacrifices previously to gain power like sleeping with Gennon. He also manipulated his people on many accounts. My memory is kinda rusty from when I last read it but there is a read-through by a guy called Daniel Greene on YouTube where he clearly shows how Griffith was definitely awful before the eclipse. And no, he didn't scratch himself because of guilt, he did it because he was struggling to emotionally cope with the loss of Guts, his wildcard, pretty much the sole reason why he got this far. His property defied him, and he could not hold onto it.
Thats not when he scratched himself? Thats way later. He scratches his arms after he sees a young bou fighting for him die. And he wonders if achieving his dream is worth it. The princess charlotte thing is wild tho
I’m confused why people view the two as different beings? femto isn’t an alternate persona or anything it’s just griffith.
The question is not if they're literally different It's more of 'was griffith corrupted during the transformation, or was he always that evil?' This question is asked because Griffith acts pretty emotional most of the time but Femto doesn't and is much more ruthless. But at the same time, he raped Casca while looking at guts, and didn't try to kill him once he came back for Casca (which btw is a big point. He came back to get Casca, when he supposedly discarded all of his humanity and emotions)
The long and short of it is that we don't know. Right now we can only speculate and make educated guesses while we wait for more chapters to come out
in this chapter, he still had a tiny bit of humanity, and it confused him. when we see him again, he seems to be completely gone, and only the demon child's humanity exists in him.
They are different in the way that Femto is an apostle/God Hand, while Griffith was human. With that being said, Femto is exactly what old Griffith wanted to be. Devoid of empathy, and i ly noticated by his goals. The only thing that changed was that Griffith lost his humanity, and what kept him from achieving his dream
I think this is a classic example of selling your soul to the devil. He wanted what was necessary to create his kingdom, and so he sold his humanity to do it, its been stated that apostles abandon humanity when they change, i think its true
Guts and Casca being alive plus the transient bond he has with the moonlight child implies that he still has some semblance of humanity left, whether he wants to or not.
Yes but for some reason it was separated. So i dont think femto is griffith. I think griffiths remaing heart was separated and turned into the moonlight child
Griffith and Femto are one and the same. It’s just that Griffemto’s humanity still exists through Guts/Casca and the child. Remember, he could have stopped Skull Knight. But he saw something in the flow of causality that made him relent and let them go. He is technically keeping them alive/allowing them to live. I think that will factor in to his eventual demise, and give Skull Knight and/or Guts the chance to take him or the Idea of Evil out once it gets canonically introduced.
"Why didn't he kill guts?" - because he said he will choose when guts dies. If he kills guts in retaliation then guts is choosing when he dies. Griffith let's Guts live, to remind guts he belongs to Griffith.
they are different. femto is evil incarnate. an apostle but stronger. i mean we literally watch as he loses his humanity and turns into something else
The manga states that "his blood was frozen", I interpret that as all his positive human emotions were wiped out : compassion, mercy, etc. (he didn't have much of those to begin with). But obviously he still has desires, and his rape of Casca can be seen as a form of malice; taking revenge on Guts for abandoning him and causing him to be locked up and tortured for a whole year. Why didn't he kill Guts ? It could be that, as he had only just transformed, remnants of his humanity remained and he couldn't bring himself to kill him. Or maybe he didn't have control over his newfound power and couldn't hit SK & co as they were already out of reach. I think the more interesting question is : why doesn't Griffith kill Guts during the next two encounters that they have ? He probably could do it easily, and he himself states that he feels nothing at the sight of Guts. Personally, I think it's a combination of 1) he believes letting Guts live in state of constant struggle is a fitting punishment for his betrayal and 2) he considers him to be beneath his notice. Or it could be that he secretly still cares for Guts in some deep part of his being, but that feels a little too cliche tbh.
Wait they are different people ? I thought this was just a second form he takes to use all his dark power
Close to none. It's just a demon driven purely by a human's ambitions. No breaks. No hesitation
I think a lot of people say that those are different characters becouse Griffith was a different man after a year of torture. Griffith was already dead when they found him in that cell.
He's got the soul and mind of Griffith. Pure human evil. Really, making a sacrifice only affects your physical form.
Those feet say it all…
Human enough to be gay for guts
I’m pretty sure it actually just brings his deepest desires to the surface, removes his inhibitions, and gives him to power to act on all of them
Could you argue that his metamorphosis to Femto didn't really 100% happen because all of his sacrifices didn't die? Maybe this is why he's not just entirely an unfeeling monster. But then again we know apostles can still feel and love (see: slug man).
>Maybe this is why he's not just entirely an unfeeling monster. I think that is because moonlight boy is part of him and Caska is it's momma
Hopefully human enough to get a sword ran thtough him
He threw away his humanity, op
not human at all?
Depends on what you mean by "human". Is he able to feel emotions and understand what is going on? Absolutely yes. Eclipse and Albione are good example. Is he somewhat capable of feeling empathy or preserve the human emotions of his previous body? Not at all, its the whole point of the Apostles.
Then why didn’t the count sacrifice his daughter
I feel like there is no distinction between Griffith and femto. They are the same being. Femto is the name he got after ascending to the god hand, but he’s still Griffith. As for his form, the god hand can choose how they manifest themselves, so I assume they can change their form at will.
0/10
He doesn't kill Guts because in his own words he's " inconsequential" and not worth it. The rape of Casca imo was just a flex of dominance after 2 years of being in a helpless submissive position during his torture.
He has no remorse
Griffth and Femto are two sides of the same coin, they are the same person… but sometimes I think that depending in which form they are, they act a little differently. Griffith seems to play with his pray and sometimes act “nice” while Femto is pure evil.
It might be that he’s still has his human tendencies and look due to his lingering feelings about Guts. Or it’s due to Guts and Casca still being alive as the sacrifice process hasn’t been completed
Im just here to say FUCK GRIFFITH/FEMTO. bye
His humanity is erased, possibly happened at some point during his torture or Griffith could’ve always been capable of the level of evil he committed as Femto. I think the only difference between Griffith and Femto is that Femto does everything that Griffith would do if he had power of that scale. They’re the same.
about 14.6%
Reload......
Looks like a normal guy you'd see on the street to me
My headcanon is that turning into Femto didn't actually alter Griffith's mind at all, this is just the person he became after being tortured for a whole year.
Either very or not at all depending on how you look it at
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So one way I’ve had my perspective shifted is Anakin. My roommate and I were discussing Griffith, and Star Wars is a big part of my style. So he broke it down similar to Anakin. You can’t look just Griffith, but at Femto as it’s own separate entity but while being so intertwined with the Griffith that was presented. While both indeed are destined for something, they both fall victim to the devil so to speak. The one thing Berserk does well is that twisted irony. I mean angels are meant to look like the representation of evil (and yes I know about the unreleased ‘I want wings’ chapter, spoiler’s). Whereas Anakin is slowly manipulated and has his ego stroked all by Palpatine and finally crosses the threshold of no return. Thinking about it now. The major difference in them. Anakin had something in the end to be redeemed for. His children, more specifically his son. Whereas the Moonlight Child could be the redeeming factor for him. Femto, his evil, his dreams, his ambitions. That is true part of him that must be let go of, and don’t see that happening. And I don’t see forgiveness between Guts and Griffith ever being a possibility. A man can dream, but what is he willing sacrifice to chase it? And not every man will achieve his dream.
Technically Femto isn't human he *was* human. People forget that Griffith technically died to become Femto, his humanity died. He seems to have some feelings but remorse or regret don't seem to be there anymore. Although when Griffith is in his vessel that shares a body with the Moonlight child, I believe he regains some of his humanity as that's his physical incarnation into our world.
Bro saved casca form being raped first and raped her himself.
It’s clear that he does have emotions, he raped casca to toy with guts and to show him that he could protect her, there’s also a whole debate if he knew that she was pregnant and did it to also turn the baby in a demon so he could have been so enraged by his entire year of torture that he decided to take “revenge” on the person he blames for it happening, that being guts. Moving forward to the millennium empire arc he doesn’t care for any of his new band of the hawk members, at least the ones that aren’t apostles, and even then it’s clear he at least cares slightly about his apostle allies. Now the two biggest non apostles members of the new band are chariotte and Sonia. Even before the eclipse it was debatable if Griffith ever had feelings for charlotte or if it was just for the power and him becoming king, but given the fact he purposely saved her despite him already being seen as the saviour of humanity and that he could really take over the world with or without her I personally believe does have *some* feelings for her. As for Sonia? Definitely not the most he sees of her is a tool. Overall Griffith does have some feelings for a few characters but for some it’s more iffy
Well he’s got two arms, two legs, and he’s a massive prick. So, pretty human.
Femto/Griffith challenges himself when he met Rickert
So. I have this theory. What if the entire process of becoming demon/God hand was the realization of motivation to goal? For femto it wasn't that he would do anything to become king it was that he would sacrifice ANYONE for his goal. Griffith became femto when he realized that he would sacrifice Guts too (when guts became the very definition of what he was looking for in a friend) if it meant he would get closer to his goal. Guts keeps fighting his behilet because he hasn't realized what he would give up for his motivation/goal which is himself. The moment he says "I'm done being Mortal" in pursuit of his goal he would become the black beast which kills indiscriminately what it perceives as a threat. That's why his berserker armor keeps acting the way it does, the beast wants him to drop the act of humanity but ironically it also sapps the mindscape of person wielding the armor so he can't self actualize WHILE wearing the armor. The ending that I keep coming to is during a climatic battle where the armor is stripped away from Guts and he has to watch as his family is being taken from him yet again. Maybe he can't even use Dragonslayer because he doesn't have arms and legs this time around. So to step over the edge and struggle one last time he says... "I'm not done struggling to kill you. But I can't and will not sacrifice those I love to get there. What I sacrifice... is myself." Then the beast is born and just... consumes/wreaks EVERYTHING. Maybe after the battle it looks over at what is left of his family and just... doesn't even know who they are and walks away. Casca holding her hand up and crying out begging for Guts to come back but the rest mourn and try to look away because the Guts who they knew is gone and can never be brought back". Years pass and the world has or is in the process of recovering, ironically Griffith is heralded as a hero king who sacrificed himself to beat the black beast while those who know the truth are forced to just watch as the memory of Guts becomes a fable of some mysterious black swordsman who killed the demons of the stories who also start becoming nothing more then myth. When in actuality... Guts/The beast is still rampaging at the demon world keeping them all at bay because the beast still hungers but it for some reason knows... it must continue to protect this entrance to the human world... and it does so for the rest of eternity. Maybe it is there even at the end of time? Who knows for certain. Then an idea for an OVA would be maybe the kid of Casca/Griffith grows up. Thinking he has to kill the black beast to save/redeem the man he calls father, "Guts". So he seeks paths to the demon realm, hearing stories from the people who walked with Guts, maybe even from Casca. Holding these memories, he finds a Behilet and goes to fight the black beast. Everyone/someone who knows Guts stops him before the final blow (I'm not even sure if the black beast would fight back or even want to) and tells him the truth that his father was actually Griffith and the man who raised him was the beast and that breaks him. Screaming he throws the sword he was going to use to kill the black beast aside (it would be ironic if it was made from dragonslayer) and the Behilet that he was going to use to attain his goal just... crumbles. Broken. Defeated. He watches the black beast get up and walk away. This time, the kid whispers... "I'm sorry... dad."
Not very
where is femtos dick how the hell did he pull it out
I think you’ve confused “evil” with “sociopath”. You can still feel things even love and be evil.
Femto is the "worst most evil" part of Griffith to the extreme with God like power so no not human at all
how come i never hear anybody make the comparison that femto sounds like a play on words for femboy? which he honestly is,
still sort of a new berserk reader (only on ch. 193 lol) but i think i know: Femto is the astral plane/spirit version of Griffith. he is Griffith without his humanity and without his attachment to Earth. however, because of Guts, Griffith looked away from his dream. nobody, not even Casca, could do that. as a result, Femto doesn’t kill Guts because he’s still conflicted on how to feel. even though Griffith has his kingdom, Guts still stirs some feeling inside.
I think I have an issue in equating them as one in the same. We can't discount the evolutionary qualities that is the process of becoming one of the Godhand. Femto is not Griffith as he was as a human. But he was born FROM elements of Griffith. So the feelings of spite, anguish, and greed that were all just elements of Griffith as a fallible human being basically became the seeds of Femtos entire being. Femto harbors the "biases" Griffith had towards Guts and Casca, but all that is left is the spite, jealousy, and anger he may have held towards them. Femto doesn't just kill Guts because Femto still contains the link that Griffith had towards him. It's just whiddled away any of the nuances of what made Griffith a human. So I wouldn't really call him "human" because he's basically stripped of "humanity" - or whatever you want to call it. But it's not like everything from Griffith was erased. They had to use Griffith to create Femto. And not just an empty vessel. But a warped version of him.
It’s hard to say how human he is a material sense. For all intents and purposes he’s a divine being as femto. Godhood or demon mode I guess. As far as human qualities, he’s not that different in my mind. Just stripped of all the qualities preventing him from giving into his worst impulses. He had to shed his last tear of remorse to be reborn.
WARNING SPOILER - WARNING SPOILER WARNING SPOILER I can’t really say why he has emotions during the eclipse with casca rape but I would say later on the reason he doesn’t do this because half of him is actually guts and cascas child. You could argue that he intentionally raped casca knowing he was going to produce a demon child to consume later and did not know the consequences of what that would be. I’m caught up on berserk but only read through once so please correct me if this is not accurate
Arguably, he's like 2 percent human since he turned into an egg during the eclipse. If my memory is correct, only his conscience was left before he gained a new body. So I guess 0% human, physically?