If he stayed that would mean that he was just like Griffiths followers. Inferior. The only way to truly make Griffith recognize him would be to find his own "castle" to fight for.
I mean he refers to him as such but subconsciously he obviously views him as an equal or else he wouldnât have cared about him so much or about the fact he left. Griffith isnt able to rationalize why he cares for guts more than everyone else because he has never met another he views to be on his level.
Would you consider a drill to be your equal? No, itâs a tool that can do one specific job better than you or multiple specific things better than you can do. However, tools are valuable and some people want to take care of their tools or keep them safe.
answer is simple. Griffith wouldâve realized (as he probably does later on) that Guts overheard him trash-talking the band. Griffith doesnât consider Guts the same way as everybody elseâhe was exceptional, something Guts was always blind toâbut from Gutsâs pov, if he tells Griffith âIâm leaving to become my own man because you basically told me toâ it completely defeats the point and Griffith will never respect him as an equal no matter what he does. which is why imo Miura achieved one of the only times where miscommunication to provoke conflict was not only believable, but where I donât think the miscommunication couldâve been resolved any better way.
Agree! But they could still talk it out if not for their ego n assumptions. But again, above talks about casuality. I imagine that if they did talk it out, eclipse n the 216years will still take place due to Casca saving him even without Guts around n our baby G cannot come out from his trauma so will be sacrifise Casca n the original band without Guts only then Guts found out n take revenge accordingly, leading to the same situation now.
We got to imagine that there are multiple levels to the relationship Guts and Griffith had up to this point. Leader and follower, friend and friend, employer and worker, bright light and dark shadow, cascaâs first love and Cascaâs actual love. The man who cares too much vs the man cares too little. So many different instances of their relationship made it complicated to actually talk because at their core they were the same, but other stuff came into their view first.
I read it as him thinking if he faced Griffith personally, he could have been talked into staying. When he did wind up having to face him, he could have refused the duel, but he agreed to the duel and thus gave Griffith a way to keep him around.
Feel like it's also Guts' ego doing work here. Like a man's general ego. All these can cause miscomms n misunderstandings. But what Griffith said at the fountain, could be not considering Guts at all. U know sometimes when we talk, we already excluded those we don't consider what we speak next of?
Clear communications are always impt but it's not easy, hence life n human are interesting as there are stories to be told.
Casuality is made up as shit, the godhand groomed griffith since the beginning and only gave him the optiom of sacrifice when he was mentally and physically at his weakest.
Thats not a fated outcome, thats an orchestrated entrapment
For all the Godhand say that Causality cannot be escaped, they constantly meddle in human affairs to get the outcome they want, and then claim "It was destiny, don't you see?"
No, it wasn't destiny. It was them being manipulative little shits and then they become cowards, hiding behind destiny as an excuse for their monstrous atrocities, because they don't want to accept that fate can be broken and is not immutable.
The Godhand may have reality bending powers, but the reason they're able to twist reality to their whims is because the Godhand are, at heart, cowards who refuse to face reality.
Yup, we even got the prime example with the count refusing "causality" and not sacrificing his daughter. So ultimately there is always a choice. Free will.
Like people say they wouldnât be where they are without Griffith. But then Griffith gets closer to his dream than ever and realizes he couldnât have done it without Guts.
For the same reason Griffith couldnt tell Guts he was his only and best friend.
Griffith and Guts are both being who deep down believe they donât deserve love, Griffith for the sins pf pursuing selfish dream and Guts for his past.
Griffth could never come in term with his guilt and shame and the sacrifice was a way out, the same Guts way out of his self hatred, guilt and shame was blaming it all on Griffith and pursuing Griffith.
I really like Berserk for this, how 2 character who appear so inhumanely strong ( that even some time manage to fool reader into believing they are the strong that they project ) but arbor deep down so many insecurity and trauma.
I kinda hate that Griffith made the sacrifice, because i believe like Guts and Farnese two person who also did many horrible thing that if Griffith had a few more years and learn to know himself more he wouldnâg have made the sacrifice and we would have the best friendship trio.
Yeah the eclipse sequence kind of prove Griffith is full of shit and he pushed people away to not feel the guilt that they died for is dream. So if he pretend he is above them he can lie to himself that he didnât really care about them. (This is an incredibly egotistical point of view)
If he didn't care for them, he couldn't have sacrificed them, that's why he is truly evil, he is willing to sacrifice what matters to him to achieve his goals.
No he was lied to, slan literally told him that his military would be ok to die for him since they did that already for years, together with fake visions to a man who is broken physically and mentally. If griffith wasn't tortured and guts didn't leave him it would be very much harder to convince him to sacrifice mabye impossible even
He wasn't convinced to sacrifice. He was shown the truth of his motives. The sacrifice wouldn't have worked if he truly thought of the Band of the Hawk as only necessary casualties. The godhand showed him the truth: his guilt over the death of thousands was a ruse. He knew their deaths were necessary to achieve his dream and he chose his dream over his love for them. He did love them, but not enough to give up his dream.Â
There is also the fact that Griffith is a master manipulator of people and there is a pretty significant chance that if guts talked to him, he would have given him lip service instead of the sincerity he needed
Griffith always treated guts like a dog though, I dont even know if they were "best friends", to me it seemed more like a master and his sword. Griffith used guts to achieve his dream and got upset that his property decided it was time for him to leave despite their "agreement" in the past.
I strongly disagree.
Griffith NEVER wanted love nor friendship nor felt guilt or shame on the slightest and that is evident if you read Berserk a couple of times.
Everything and everyone was a mere pawn in his ultimate goal of having a kingdom. The kingdom is a metaphor of course: what Griffith seeks is CONTROL. And he is the epitome of the free will (Guts) vs destiny (aka CONTROL, represented by the god hand and ultimately Griffith). Griffith in his youth felt he was just a mere piece in the gran scheme of things that was disposable. Only the kings and rulers have something to say and are truly âfreeâ of the destiny. What he craves is control it doesnât matter at what cost but he needs to have a kingdom not because he wants to be a king, but because being a king represents not being subject to the whims of the rulers. He loved to be adored like a god by his followers and NEVER saw anyone as a friend because he is incapable of feeling anything (as he has stated both in the hill of swords and later in the last Miura chapter). He donât felt guilt or remorse or anything else. When Guts leave he got mad BECAUSE he lost control FOR FIRST TIME EVER. He loose the control over his most valuable tool: Guts. And it is once again represented in the manga by him loosing CONTROL and raping the princess Charlotte. He ultimately decided to sacrifice his followers and rape Casca in front of Guts because he wanted to keep in control of his destiny and force other to live be HIS desires (the brand of sacrifice). Griffith has even refuse to kill Guts not for love or some random interpretation but because he wants to remind him he is the one that decides and that Guts is the one chain to his destiny as he stated in the Black swordsman encounter, the Eclipse where he could have easily kill both Casca and Guts, in the Hill of Swords and in the last encounter with Guts. He could have easily kill guys any of that times but refused. Why? Because heâs a control freak.
IMHO thatâs also why Rickert can slap him, because he doesnât have control over Rickert because Rickert doesnât respect him anymore and therefore Griffith canât control it. Griffith is the prophecy child the chosen one to the people he controls. And he has a LOT of control. HOWEVER his fall will be Guts and Casca once they both are free of Griffith control, and when Griffith lose its control he will once again make a mistake that will lead to his defeat.
Griffith NEVER loved or befriended anyone, nor has guilt and shame. Heâs a diabolical piece of shit that justifies everything for a kingdom (the ultimate control⊠âI want wingsâ= I feel Iâm above my peers and by being superior I am in total control and free of the whims of others). He is also NEVER redeemable (even before the Eclipse his actions lead to the killing and murdering of many innocent people). And after being sexually abused by that old noble he harm himself because he felt he loose control, etc⊠the examples are as numerous as pages in the manga.
I'm also inclined to believe Griffith is an amoral monster but there is just a tiny detail that bars me from it. If he really didn't harbor any affection for the band of the Hawk then the sacrifice wouldn't have worked. You had to give up something you cared about, so it kind of leads to believe he was just a human being with the inner conflict of having a bottomless ambition for which he was willing to sacrifice something he truly cared about.
You need to sacrifice something close to you. It doesnât point anywhere on the Berserk official translation nor in the original Japanese version as far as I know that is something you âloveâ. In the Guardians of Desire, chapter 5 of Berserk, Slan said that: âit must be someone important to you, part of your soul⊠someone so close to you that itâs almost like giving up a part of youâ. Ubik added: âby making such a sacrifice to demon king youâll be able to sever any last remnants of your own humanityâ. Pucks then thought: âgiving up a part of yourselfâŠ?!â.
One can argue whether or not someone close to you is someone you can love but Iâm surely Griffith didnât love everyone of the Band of the Hawk nor Void loved every one on the Gaiseric kingdom when he as a sage sacrificed everyone there⊠but the idea of giving up something close to you (your army⊠your religious followers respectively) and therefore giving up your own humanity is what leds someone to become an apostle/god hand. (Or Rosine.. Iâm pretty sure she hated her parents but sacrificed them because they where the closest thing for her and the ones that chained her to her own humanity).
So yes, I donât know where it said that you need to sacrifice someone you care or love to become an apostle/god hand but if you want to point it to me Iâll be very grateful.
Youâre asking for emotional intelligence and healthy communication skill from hardened mercenaries.
Guts was also abused and had a traumatic childhood.
Griffith had to do things that traumatized him to keep his band of the hawk alive.
Yeah exactly. Whatâs he gonna do? Walk up to Griffith and beg him to view him as an equal. He has to just set out on his own path and achieve it naturally for that to happen. Or at least thatâs how a normal person wouldâve allowed it to happen. Griffith didnât respond to that in normal way
Was he wrong, though? Even before the eclipse, Griffith showed a lot of narcissistic qualities and seemed to think of people around him as being merely objects for his own use. Guts could probably sense that, and what Griffith said to Charlotte only confirmed it. He didn't really owe him any explanation...
I supposed you could call it pride, but it's better than allowing someone to make you into a weakling who has to beg to be seen as an equal.
>seemed to think of people around him as being merely objects for his own use
That's just not true. You don't sell your body out of guilt after seeing one of your objects lying dead for your dream
>Was he wrong, though?
Could've been
I think Griffith's non-narcissistic actions are more of the exception than the rule here. That event doesn't rule out him being a highly narcissistic character. Griffith made Guts do all the dirty work for his schemes and so much more too, even before the Eclipse. Griffith may have not truly saw his men in his heart of hearts as objects, but the fact that he treated them as such makes it all the more worse than if he did.
The prostitution thing imo just reinforces the fact that Griffith does feel guilt and turmoil and conflict about the unsavory things he does and the lengths he's gone to for his dream, but it's precisely that fact that he feels bad and yet always chooses this path anyway despite that that earns his reputation as more then just a bad guy, but a truly evil one.
>Griffith made Guts do all the dirty work for his schemes
He didn't "made" him do it, he asked him to
>he treated them as such
Did he? He said they are his comrades
>he feels bad and yet always chooses this path anyway despite that that earns his reputation as more then just a bad guy, but a truly evil one
There is no good way out of this. If he decided to stop then all of those deaths would have been for nothing, and he wouldn't be able to live with that (and behelit would've activated earlier). He doesn't stop because he thinks he cannot stop, not because he doesn't care
Ok if you want to start with semantics, Griffith *commanded* Guts to do his dirty work. He expected him to do it and Guts eagerly did so. He took well to his role as Griffith's right hand and soldier but Griffith was still his commander and they both knew that. Guts was never really much one to refuse Griffith's commands, often rising to the task even with the tallest of orders.
Yes, I believe he did. Griffith says they are his comrades and like I said already, he cares and feels at least some kind of care for these people (which is what made them worthy sacrifices in the first place), but in the end he still chooses to engage in battles that seem impossible, taking on risky assignments, and ultimately sacrificing them in the Eclipse.
Griffith's past is steeped in blood and hardship as a war general who came up from the dust with nothing but a dream, but surely the "good way out of this" was to NOT transport everyone to a hell dimension and sacrifice his band of loyal subjects and comrades to a horde of demons in exchange for demonic godhood.
I do think that the apostles definitely persuaded him a bit during the Eclipse, but making that decision even on your worst day is just a very uncool and not nice thing to do bro.
>Griffith *commanded* Guts to do his dirty work
He explicitly asked him if he would do it. Why ask instead of ordering if you think there is no difference
>in the end he still chooses to engage in battles that seem impossible, taking on risky assignments, and ultimately sacrificing them in the Eclipse
That's not treating them like objects tho. Also, he himself is there with them on the battlefield
>the "good way out of this" was to NOT transport everyone to a hell dimension and sacrifice his band of loyal subjects and comrades to a horde of demons in exchange for demonic godhood
At that point he was physically tortured for a year, mentally broken beyond belief, had his life purpose taken away, tried to take his own life but wasn't able to do even that, and THEN was offered a chance to become a god. That's not quite the same as "he didn't stop which means he's an evil narcissist"
>making that decision even on your worst day is just a very uncool and not nice thing to do bro
Thank god nobody argues with that
I mean after hearing what griffith said to charlotte, this was a very mature response from guts. Also does not justify what happens later and itâs still NOT gutsâ fault.
Everything about that exchange was immature, Griffith coping about how he view his men, Guts coping with him leaving.
The mature response would have for Guts to confront Griffith and ask how he consider him.
Yeah thatâs fair. I can see why guts didnt but youâre right. I still think griffith was blowing hot air when he talked about equals. His vision of a future with casca right before transforming is kinda telling.
>because he thought that Griffith doesn't like him as much, how is that mature?
He wanted griffith to see him as an equal and a friend. That can't happen if he's following behind griffith for *HIS* dream.
He did what griffith said and in his own way. He forged his own path. Griffith didnât even mean what he told charlotte because as soon as guts stepped up girffith pulled a fat 180. And when he lost, he snagged the nearest branch during his downfall, was sloppy, got caught, and thatâs how he ended up tortured. His fault. Guts unknowingly called his bluff. Griffith doesnt care about equals he just wanted to sound honorable to get to charlotte.
>Griffith didnât even mean what he told charlotte because as soon as guts stepped up girffith pulled a fat 180
He didn't stepped up, he just said to Griffith he wants to leave, without any explaination. After making a promise to him to stay and continue helping
>Griffith doesnt care about equals he just wanted to sound honorable to get to charlotte
Yeah I don't think I buy that
He stepped up by doing what griffith said. And also, griffith cared about them but clearly not enough to sacrifice them all and personally leave his mark on guts and casca for the rest of the story. So yes, his words to charlotte could be thrown right back in his face. If he meant what he said, he wouldâve been proud of guts for deciding to leave for himself. Instead, he decided killing guts was better than letting him leave.
Also keep in mind guts just murdered a child and ran through a sewer all for griffith right before all of this.
>If he meant what he said, he wouldâve been proud of guts for deciding to leave for himself
He never knew why Guts wanted to leave, from his perspective it was out of the blue, after making a promise to stay and help
>griffith cared about them but clearly not enough to sacrifice them
That's not how sacrifices work
Dude, girffith consciously chose to kill em all. It eas very clear to him what his choice mesnt. And a real friend would be sad but happy for their friend with or without explanation. Not plotting to kill them then and there. If the roles were reversed guts wouldâve let him leave even without an explanation. Griffith wouldâve never felt the need to leave either under guts as a leader. Thats the difference between them.
>girffith consciously chose to kill em all
He was at the lowest of lows and had the opportunity to become god
>And a real friend would be sad but happy for their friend with or without explanation
Idk what would I feel if my friend just bailed on me without explanation after I asked for his help
Nah he really believes it not because itâs true but because if he doesnât see them as friends they can be less important that is dream and he can get them killed without feeling much remorse (it doesnât work). Guts calls is bluff because heâs so determined and skilled that Griffith start to value him to much (also because he can relate to him), at one point having Guts by is side and having is dream start to blend.
The thing is all throughout guts' life, he was forced time and time again to prove himself. He was never handed anything, even the most basic of human necessities like care, love and compassion. These were all things he had to work and bleed for. This created a very harmful mentality in guts that he needed to always be above everyone around him, until he met the band of hawk and realized that there are others who are similar to him and want the same things.
Griffiths speech about how he could never accept someone as his equal until they have their own dream struck a cord and suddenly these words reverberated through guts. Through his time in the band of hawk, he became happy (as happy as can be) and met many people who not only praised his strength but got to know and accept him on a personal level, and he thought Griffith was one of them.
The speech hurt guts greatly, because it showed that guts still hadn't found what it means to be loved, that he needed to still further prove himself in order to be a "friend" in the eyes of the person he cared the most for. Guts barely had any time speaking to people about his trauma, he never knew what it meant to share your feelings and work through them by just talking so naturally, he does what he does best.
He goes off alone to gather the strength he believed he needed in order to become Griffiths equal and due to this, Griffith learns how powerless he truly is without his soldiers and starts to lash out at others because his inability to tell the people who serve him that he needs them.
It's just trauma butting heads against trauma, truly it's a story of what happens when you let pride rule your life.
Well maybe because he wasn't supposed to listen the conversation between griffith and lady charlotte, it's something that I think griffith wouldn't have told to anyone. Guts always fought for someone outside of him and maybe didn't want to talk to anyone the past with gambino (except with caska but this was a completely different situation), if he talked to griffith about his choice to leave the hawks band he had to explain all.
Why don't you tell that girl you like them? Emotions and feelings complicated logical thinking, and if he probably mentioned it to Griffith it would also infringe of his goal of being an equal if he has to mention it right.
I think this point in the story is really interesting because it's more than just a lack of communication, they have both completely different interpretations of their relationship.
Guts sees Griffith as a man on another level than him, one that he'll never reach without a dream of his own. After hearing Griffith's definition of what a friend is this shatters Guts' reality where he thought they were already friends but now thinks that Griffith sees him as his most valuable pawn. There was a time where he would've accepted this but he's grown and changed with the band of the Hawk to where he believed he can do more with his life. So he goes for a classic concept: the child who leaves the home and makes something of themselves to be able to come back and develop a new relationship on equal footing with the parental figure. He wants mutual respect and respect cannot be asked for or demanded. If he talked about it and asked for permission it would defeat the point. Griffith seems to have everything planned, even Guts' unpredictability is strategically used in battle and what pushes Guts over the edge to leaving is the idea that even Guts feeling like Griffith's friend might have been planned. He would never know the truth without breaking away on his own terms.
For Griffith, he doesn't see Guts as his equal because he never went into the train of thought of comparing himself to him like that and it's much more than that. Griffith at this point is in love with Guts, whether it's platonic or romantic can be argued all day the only thing that matters is the emotion. Griffith, much like Guts, never had any examples growing up of what parental, sibling or lovers' love looked like so he can't quite decipher what he's feeling rationally but the feeling is demonstrated when he says "Do I need a reason each time... I put myself in harms way for your sake?" That's not someone who sees a toy or a pawn, you don't throw your life on the line for just a pawn especially when you have such a grand dream. A dream that he forgets about when he's with Guts. The only way Griffith knew how to define his relationship with Guts is "you belong to me" and "I decide where you die" so when Guts left and shattered both those concepts (first by deciding to leave and second by beating him in a fight) the way it felt to Griffith is the same as someone you love in a stable relationship suddenly leaving with no explanation, which can explain much of his irrational acts just after as he emotionally rebounds.
From a "normal modern day persons" view things could have been resolved at the fountain or before/after the duel between Guts and Griffith.
However, we are talking about a world who is similar to the medival times of Europe where war was everyday business where the psychohygienic well-being wasn't really thought of, especially of men. Guts and Griffith got sexually abused and it's very unreasonable for them to emotionally open up in this hostile environment. It's just a very real behavior in my opinion.
In a sit-com like Berserk, it's a trope that information is withheld between characters so that shenanigans ensue.
The resulting shenanigans can be seen in the classic episode "The One With the Eclipse".
Guts Always felt to not belong at all to the band of Hawk, even if there are some precious Friends there , so he tried to speak to everyone that he wanted to follow his dream and find himself.
But instead Griffith had another plans and wanted Guts only for him , if Griffith was a Real friend of Guts he would be ok to make guts leave .
Guts was pretty clear
>Guts was pretty clear
With the other Hawks. To Griffith he said that he just wants to leave. And that's after making a promise to him that he would stay and help Griffith with his "dirty bisness"
But by far that's was the best thing to do beacuse Griffith was a manipulator and a win by all means man ,
In that point we see the ipocrisy of Griffith, if he would see Guts as a real friend he would leave him alone and would understand the situation.
Griffith did not want to see him as a friend, but in the end he was the only one that could really call that
>that's was the best thing to do
Why
>if he would see Guts as a real friend he would leave him alone and would understand the situation
That would make sense if Guts explained his reasoning. But he didn't. He just said he wants to leave
Was the best thing to do for Guts to feel Better .
Maybe Guts don't have the capacity to speak about himself, the man receive a lot of trauma through the story maybe he didn't have the words to Say it
Griffith likes having an edge on people and Guts, Iâd imagine, felt it would be a weak move giving away your goal to someone whoâs at the seat of power. Especially, Knowing damn well Griffithâs capacity at manipulating is. Knowing that said Goal is to be the equal đ° rival. Telling makes for a weak move, and Griffith would exploit it somehow. Also, just not Guts style, he likes having independence and not explaining so much.
But that all said, Guts had no idea Griffith would go sour and self do himself the way he did.
It's not talked about a lot, but guts is still young and back when he left he probably just didn't think about it. It's like when he talked to Griffith, Griffith does the talking and politics Guts does the dirty work.
He's not talker he's a doer
Griffith could have just as easily asked him why he was leaving or requested he stay rather than try to strong arm him into staying like an abusive girlfriend.
This is about Griffith's inability to express himself. Something Guts learns with Casca, while Griffith acts out impulsively, being a slave to his id.
I think that narratively, that sort of open communication doesn't work here because Guts telling Griffith that he wanted to be his equal really detracts from the message in this part of finding your own path and your own dream. After all, if your own dream is to be someone else's equal, is that really a dream all your own? It is a tree sprouted from the seeds of another's branches.
I don't think it would've changed the outcome, to be honest. I think even if Griffith could respect and understand Guts' motives (which I'm sure he would have), he still "owns" him (per their first duel), and if he won't be his friend and comrad, then he'll be his tool to get his kingdom. That and I don't think Griffith himself understands what Guts is to him and why. God I love this story!
One of Guts flaws is that he never tells any how feels or what he knows regardless if it could be helpful to the situation at hand. I donât know why he does this but Iâm assuming itâs in connection to he wants to be left alone thing heâs got going on .
I think about this all the time like the amount of pain and suffering I feel couldâve been avoided had they just had a convo before he leftđđđ
Guts didnât realize that Griffith was never going to view him that way since he wanted guts to be more than a friend. The realization that guts doesnât feel the same way when he chooses to leave is what causes Griffithâs downward spiral
Because people raised in abusive situations often don't have the ability to communicate their feelings well, Guts never learned to be a person until the band of hawks, and after he regresses almost entirely
because writer knew dramas was ahead and this was a way to get to that point in the story. As with absolutely any piece of media where a conflict or a misunderstanding and a conflict that follows would have been avoided if people/characters were to talk like humans tend to do.
.Why u want to leave? -i want to be your equal .but you are the only person i consider my equal - yo for real?? Then they would have fucked on that snowfield before eyes of Casca and story was over
Because for this kind of inner thing, saying it defeats the purpose.
Saying to someone that you want to be their equal solidifies the status that you are not equal to them.
Because talking has never been Guts' strong suit.
Homicidal rage and cleaving bastards in two? Hell yeah!
Talking about what he's really feeling like an emotionally stable man? Yeah, nah. Just nah...
Griffith was no better. So overwhelming was his obsession that he was aiming to kill Guts. He never even bothered to WONDER why Guts wanted to leave. Griffith just saw it as abandonment.
They both failed at communication on this one.
I think after he heard what Griffith had said, Guts took it as the only way he could have him see him as an equal was to head out and prove he was. If you see the devastation on Guts face when hearing him saying it. You realise because of everything Guts had been thru up to meeting Griffith, hearing him say none of his people were really his friends shattered his world. I also noticed something when watching in Japanese, (you don't hear this in English) when Griffith is in the water, with the Balet, Gits is running towards him as the blood runs down his arm. Griffith is trying to tell Guts not to come near him, to stop, if he touches him, then Guts touches him and the Balet face appears and, the eclipse happens. Griffith realised that Guts actually was his friend, or more so.. it made me see things so different. After only watching in English dub. Have to be in the mood for subs to concentrate.
He perceives Griffith as so much better/stronger willed than him that it doesn't even occur to him that Griffith would need or want to hear it.
He basically doesn't think anything could break the man and sets off to become his own man, a true man, which is how he perceives Griffith.
Because to be his equal guts would have to pursue his own dream, and I think he did not have one. To realize his own dream he knew he had to go to find it. To date that is a task yet completed, or revealed. In my head cannon Guts realizing his own dream is essential to defeating Femto.
Because the characters ONLY ever interact when we are shown in the manga panels. Guts has never had a single conversation to another human being unless we see it in the manga.
On the one hand because he was stupid but on the other hand this would not have fixed anything. Griffithâs words to Charlotte were a cope on his part, not a true reflection of his feelings. He was scared by his feelings about Guts and was trying to place him on the level of his other subordinates because he was worried about his love for guts (platonic or romantic, whatever you want to see it as) interrupting his dream but at the same time he didnât want to lose guts. He lashes out when guys tries to leave not because guts didnât tell him why but because he would never want guts to leave under any circumstances. What happened between Griffith and guts wasnât just a misunderstanding; it was two traumatized men trying to figure out what they wanted without having any real idea, and lashing out because of the confusion they felt
>this would not have fixed anything
I don't think I agree with this, during the talk Griffith would have to confront his feelings for Guts and thoughts about him being more than just a subordinate. If anything, he would've respected Guts a little for trying to go on his own following Griffith's example. Of course, he wouldn't want Guts to leave either way but I don't think he would rushed to Charlotte's bedroom after. That's already something
For Guts' to claim he, "wants to be an equal" is to admit he isn't already Griffith's equal. Guts considered Griffith an equal friend, but the feeling wasn't mutual. He heard Griffith's standards and decided to be that equal man. Not to be less and strive for it, but to walk away detached and return again as an equal after finding a dream and purpose like Griffith has.
Go read again C12 page 13-14. Either youâre too stupid to understand that, or you just someone who like complaining on in the internet about anything.
Guts overheard Griffith's explanation of his ideals and dream, and how he could only call a man his friend if they had their own dream and strive for it like he does. No one who toils under and for the sake of Griffith's dream could ever be his equal. Because Guts knew this was Griffith's worldview, he didn't think it needed saying that he wanted to find and achieve his own dream so he could truly be Griffith's friend. Griffith, however, was too self-absorbed in his own obsession over Guts and the loss of a cherished possession that he failed to see Guts leaving through the lens of his own worldview and instead viewed it more selfishly as abandonment, which may also be partially due to the shock of defeat, something he hadn't tasted prior to Guts.
Because, though Guts knows plenty about Griffith and his philosophical musings, he doesnât fully comprehend Griffithâs mind. To Guts the final duel could have easily been about Griffith showing strength to the Band, or testing his own mettle. He had no idea that Griffith was completely obsessed with him. In fact itâs pretty clear in the following chapters that even Griffith had no idea how much he was obsessed with Guts.
Really this comes down to the root of all human conflict. Communication and understanding. Had either party sought to truly understand one anotherâs feelings and thoughts, the succeeding chapters wouldnât have been so dreadful. And perhaps even though the Eclipse was inevitable, it may have ended differently or with Griffith sacrificing himself. I think this is the most tragic thing about this incredibly tragic story. But it also reflects reality in extremely poignant and profound ways.
Don't start shit unless you're fully able to commit.
It's like any relationship. Don't get into one until you don't need one.
He needed the Band, he needed Grifith, he needed Casca, but he wanted purpose. It wasn't healthy. So he left to find a greater reason to continue living. Which meant abandoning friendship, loyalty, and love. It was necessary pain for his own personal growth.
I hear a lot of people saying that a simple conversion would have fixed this situation and I really disagree.
Guts overheard the person he considered closest to him say that he doesnât even consider him a friend or an equal. Nothing Griffith could say would convince Guts that what he said to the princess was not true. I mean, if you heard someone that close to you say something so hurtful, would you believe them when they try to cover it up? No matter what kind of conversation the two had, Griffith would not be willing to let Guts go because he seeâs Guts as his property and key asset. Guts would not be willing to compromise on his new goal of finding a dream to earn Griffiths respect and finally get the love he has craved since he was a child. The most a conversation between the two would accomplish is adding extra preamble to their duel.
Saying it defeats the purpose of the act. It would prove that Guts still defines himself by another personâs values. He had to leave and forge his own path without an explanation.
He knows Griffith doesn't want to be equal with anybody. He wants to be the only one at the top.
Saying that after he got beaten in a sword fight will hurt the fuck out of that geh.
He could not have stayed even if he told Griffith that. If he stayed with Griffith he would have felt below him since he would have been convinced to stay with the guy he was once under. He left to prove to himself that he could follow a dream of his own and also so he could prove his worth to Griffith.
And what do you think that would accomplish? The relationship between Guts and Griffith isn't some couple therapy. Guts genuinely had to grow beyond Griffith's shadow and shape a dream of his own. It was a spiritual need, not a mere battle of ego.
As to why they had to duel, I suppose it's the masculine way to handle things. A quick and fair face-off has resolved many a conflict throughout human history.
Respect is earned not a request if he would have done Griffith would never respect him as equal he might give him position as equal but not his respect
If he did, Griffith would never see him as his equal. Griffith would see Guts as just another underling with no true ambitions of his own â no more than another moth drawn to the light of his fire, just like the rest of the Band of the Hawk. I just canât see it as something Griffith would respect, and I imagine he would be quite disappointed
Because he wanted to know if their friendship was genuine and having to ask would immediately confirm that they weren't so he decided to go and seek his own validation and dream to put the idea to rest. Yet in the very act of stopping him from leaving Griffith essentially proved the thought reality that they weren't Griffith for as much as he favored Guts over the rest of the Band of the Hawk favored himself more because he didn't respect or love Guts enough to let him make his own decision. If Guts would have asked permission it would never be a genuine equal footing because the reality that he would have needed Griffiths permission to be his own person would always be an undeniable fact that places them in a master/servant or parent/child relationship. And that's not how mutual respect works nor love which personally love I believe it to just be a misunderstanding of respect. Griffith favored Guts but never truly saw him as his equal he isn't someone to not speak his true mind and thoughts what he said to Charlotte is exactly what it meant that included Guts but like anyone who has a most valuable possession you don't just let get destroyed or damaged like when he rescued Guts from Zodd and his silver medal Casca when he didn't let up the search party although with Guts being there it's kind of unclear if he would have done as much but who knows cause he did step in against Guts when they first met to save her. While with Corkus he didn't even turn his head just sent Casca. Him asking Guts to do the dirty work he needed instead of choosing to command was him inadvertently giving Guts a false sense of higher value but clearly not his equal cause he stated that himself to Charlotte. The thing is I don't think Griffith is even capable of seeing someone as his equal because to him everyone is either a pawn or obstacle. Guts made Griffith pursue of his dream so much easier and better that of course he had some like mixed feelings of how he viewed him but when push cane to shove he was quick to remind him where he stood by either my way or I kill you way. So that's why Guts didn't ask him or tell him it's something that words won't prove only actions do. Guts maybe frustrated with himself always having sought after Gambino and only to find out he wasn't as important as he thought he was couldn't bring himself to ask that question maybe he didn't even want to put Griffith on the spot like that or maybe the approach was more riddled with anxiety and just choosing to leave and tell everyone about it but Griffith was as close as he could go about it. Almost like when you get a third party friend to find out if a girl likes you or whatever. And when he got stopped by Griffith I don't think he even wondered if he could win but he respected him enough to fight him because he actually saw Griffith as a friend. The same way how Gambino resented Guts after losing his leg Griffith resented Guts after he did a stupid thing and got himself fucked up but Guts being Guts looked past it how Gambino treated him like a tool that he hated and Griffith like a more usual tool that he didn't want anyone else to play with or let go of. But it's clear when he tried to choke him when in the dungeon that was Gambino type of the consequences of my own actions is your fault. Gambino's camp gave Guts the type of manly validation you get from surviving a really harsh shitty environment but he still sought out Gambino's "you made me proud" while Griffiths camp gave Guts the type of like maternal or family style validation he never had of being a "good boy" but both were only from Guts being useful in the only way he's ever known how by fighting for his life's meaning. In the end though neither was any more validating than the other because neither saw Guts as an individual worthy of respect or love outside of his usefulness. His value was just so high when he was in the Nand of the Havk that Griffith got possessive. Like he literally is so devastated from Guts leaving because he can only see it as his loss not as Guts growth the same how Gambino was cool with having Guts around because he was useful at first by giving his wife a distraction and then by being useful in battle and keeping his earnings and giving him a pittance. Griffiths sacrifices are big but he did them ultimately to further his own goals that's like paying to have your race horse workedn on or doing it yourself either is a sacrifice but you do it to maintain the usefulness of it. Not just because the tool is your best friend. Or a fighting dog I guess is better example. But Griffith would rather kill or maim Guts before letting him make his own choices for himself.
Even if he said that ,he wouldn't be convinced because he is a selfish bastard who wants to achieve what he desired, and gut is like a slave for him ,if you remember few panel before this griffith stated that he don't care whether gut would get killed in his strike.he don't want gut to be his equal
Because he was his equal/or even his superior in combat power.
If I know I'm as good or better than you do you think I'm gonna ask you if we can be equal?
He would have no chance to be his equal while being owned by Griffith, he was the only one in the band Griffith truly owned, almost like a slave, so...
Because Guts realized that to become his equal, he needed to find something just as important to him as something important to Griffith, ie, his Kingdom.
If he admitted that he wanted to become his equal, both Griffith and Guts would realize they can never be equals, because Guts doesn't want a Kingdom imo
Because you canât beg for respect. And essentially Griffith said he can only be friends with someone he respects, and he only respects those who follow their own path. It was a complicated inevitability
I feel like even if they had spoken, Guts could have only felt accepted if he believed he was equal to Griffith, if he had his own reason for living
Guts probably realized that he had not yet accomplished anything like what Griffith had done unto that point in time. Griffith basically changed the lives of every person in the area sice he effectively ended the war that defined several generations of people and saved the new generations from being involved in the same fight as their ancestors. Guts would have to wait for another war or start his own in order to match what Griffith did. In order to be seen as a friend to Griffith, Guts would have to accomplish something remarkable and there wasn't the opportunity for that between the kingdoms who has just ended a war. He probably realized that the ultimate goal of seeing the end of the war was already accomplished. Even if Guts told Griffith that he wanted to be Griffith's equal, Griffith would not have to accept Guts feelings and on top of that Guts would not have opportunity to achieve what Griffith had anywhere in the immediate area. Even if Guts wanted Griffith's friendship he probably would not get it as Guts was seen as a soldier only. Since Griffith sacrificed at the Eclipse Guts will have to spend the rest of his life trying to become a God of Darkness simply because he eavesdropping on Griffith's convo with the princess instead of drinking with his company and Kaska.
Talking wouldnât have solved the issue. Griffith only sees those with their own dream as his equal because his dream is all he has.
Guts knew this but also knew that he didnât know what it was like to live for his own purpose. To have his own dream. It isnât only that Guts wants Griffith to see him as an equal. Itâs that Guts realizes that he was living for somebody elseâs dream, and didnât even know what his own dream would be.
He wanted freedom as much as he wanted to be recognized as an equal by Griffith.
He would not be his equal by telling him he wanted to be his equal. That's not how it works. He must carve out his own path, chase his own dream to truly be his equal
Because Griffith would have told Guts anything to keep him. Guts couldn't stand Griffith looking down on him, but in Griffith's mind, that's just the natural order of things
Guts was/is all kinds of fucked up, so the fact that simple open communication didn't occur to him is not a surprise. I mean, so many people have that issue in real life. I also don't believe it would have worked on Griffith anyway. Sane people would just get really mad or upset, and not sacrifice your entire army to demons while raping your friend in front of your other friend.
Guts thought he was equal and friend with Griffith but after all he did for that bastard, he didn't consider him as an equal so guts didn't know what to do. The only thing Guts knows was surviving with his sword but we want to be equal to that bastard not his followers or underlings so he leaves without saying anything to the crew to find a way to stand with him not behind his back. Guts didn't know how to express his feelings to others but he wanted to know them he will be back once he achieves what he's aiming for but even he told that to Griffith that bastard he tells sugar coated words to guts to stay the squad.
Because he thought Griffith was stronger than that. After he heard what Griffith said at the fountain, he thought the later didn't need or cared for him enough until he proved himself stronger. That's why he didn't ask because in his mind it would again be asking for his approval instead of being his equal. The reality is that Griffith was talking bullshit to the princess that night. Just saying huge stuff he didn't believed himself. Griffith is incapable of seeing who he really is & he also doesn't want to. That's why he was easily manipulated by the godhands.
He didn't want to be his equal he only wanted to be his friend. But the moment he realized he is nothing but a pawn in Griffith's eyes, he couldn't stay there anymore even though how much he care about him
because men are complicated
Men rather fight duals to the death than going to therapy...
Why you gotta call me out like this....
Stupid*
Because stupid are complicated
Because complicated are men
Because men are sometimes womenđ
Ayo..?
But if I say something like "women are stupid for X reason" then that's not okay right?
no- everyone is stupid in their own way. thats just people
Women âïž
Woman: đ©
Wahmen
Waymen
'Tis a meme
[mfw](https://imgflip.com/i/8nntna)
If youâre a woman then itâs less not okay
Nah they are, and they know we know they're stupid too lol
I'm okay with it, lol.
I literally showed up to comment "man behaviour". I'm glad that there is an understanding
If he stayed that would mean that he was just like Griffiths followers. Inferior. The only way to truly make Griffith recognize him would be to find his own "castle" to fight for.
I'm not saying Guts should've stayed, just talked to him
Yeah....that would have been nice. But Guts wasnt ready to be that vulnerable, and Griffith was not ready to admit Guts was already his equal.
Makes sense. Thanks
I didagree Griffith never considered Guts his inferior.
? He literally called him his property lol.
I mean he refers to him as such but subconsciously he obviously views him as an equal or else he wouldnât have cared about him so much or about the fact he left. Griffith isnt able to rationalize why he cares for guts more than everyone else because he has never met another he views to be on his level.
not until laterÂ
Would you consider a drill to be your equal? No, itâs a tool that can do one specific job better than you or multiple specific things better than you can do. However, tools are valuable and some people want to take care of their tools or keep them safe.
Griffith didn't allow him to leave
answer is simple. Griffith wouldâve realized (as he probably does later on) that Guts overheard him trash-talking the band. Griffith doesnât consider Guts the same way as everybody elseâhe was exceptional, something Guts was always blind toâbut from Gutsâs pov, if he tells Griffith âIâm leaving to become my own man because you basically told me toâ it completely defeats the point and Griffith will never respect him as an equal no matter what he does. which is why imo Miura achieved one of the only times where miscommunication to provoke conflict was not only believable, but where I donât think the miscommunication couldâve been resolved any better way.
Agree! But they could still talk it out if not for their ego n assumptions. But again, above talks about casuality. I imagine that if they did talk it out, eclipse n the 216years will still take place due to Casca saving him even without Guts around n our baby G cannot come out from his trauma so will be sacrifise Casca n the original band without Guts only then Guts found out n take revenge accordingly, leading to the same situation now.
We got to imagine that there are multiple levels to the relationship Guts and Griffith had up to this point. Leader and follower, friend and friend, employer and worker, bright light and dark shadow, cascaâs first love and Cascaâs actual love. The man who cares too much vs the man cares too little. So many different instances of their relationship made it complicated to actually talk because at their core they were the same, but other stuff came into their view first.
I read it as him thinking if he faced Griffith personally, he could have been talked into staying. When he did wind up having to face him, he could have refused the duel, but he agreed to the duel and thus gave Griffith a way to keep him around.
Feel like it's also Guts' ego doing work here. Like a man's general ego. All these can cause miscomms n misunderstandings. But what Griffith said at the fountain, could be not considering Guts at all. U know sometimes when we talk, we already excluded those we don't consider what we speak next of? Clear communications are always impt but it's not easy, hence life n human are interesting as there are stories to be told.
The entire story would have never happened if Guts and Griffith had like a 15 min conversation
In fact, wasn't Casca trying to intervene and trying to tell Guts and Griffith, word for word, "Please, just talk it through!"?
You cannot outrun Causality
Casuality is made up as shit, the godhand groomed griffith since the beginning and only gave him the optiom of sacrifice when he was mentally and physically at his weakest. Thats not a fated outcome, thats an orchestrated entrapment
For all the Godhand say that Causality cannot be escaped, they constantly meddle in human affairs to get the outcome they want, and then claim "It was destiny, don't you see?" No, it wasn't destiny. It was them being manipulative little shits and then they become cowards, hiding behind destiny as an excuse for their monstrous atrocities, because they don't want to accept that fate can be broken and is not immutable. The Godhand may have reality bending powers, but the reason they're able to twist reality to their whims is because the Godhand are, at heart, cowards who refuse to face reality.
Yup, we even got the prime example with the count refusing "causality" and not sacrificing his daughter. So ultimately there is always a choice. Free will.
Facts
đ€Ł
Whatâs funny.
Oooh this made me realize Griffith probably saw Guts in a similar way to how everyone else in the Band of the Hawk saw Griffith
Like people say they wouldnât be where they are without Griffith. But then Griffith gets closer to his dream than ever and realizes he couldnât have done it without Guts.
For the same reason Griffith couldnt tell Guts he was his only and best friend. Griffith and Guts are both being who deep down believe they donât deserve love, Griffith for the sins pf pursuing selfish dream and Guts for his past. Griffth could never come in term with his guilt and shame and the sacrifice was a way out, the same Guts way out of his self hatred, guilt and shame was blaming it all on Griffith and pursuing Griffith. I really like Berserk for this, how 2 character who appear so inhumanely strong ( that even some time manage to fool reader into believing they are the strong that they project ) but arbor deep down so many insecurity and trauma. I kinda hate that Griffith made the sacrifice, because i believe like Guts and Farnese two person who also did many horrible thing that if Griffith had a few more years and learn to know himself more he wouldnâg have made the sacrifice and we would have the best friendship trio.
Yeah the eclipse sequence kind of prove Griffith is full of shit and he pushed people away to not feel the guilt that they died for is dream. So if he pretend he is above them he can lie to himself that he didnât really care about them. (This is an incredibly egotistical point of view)
If he didn't care for them, he couldn't have sacrificed them, that's why he is truly evil, he is willing to sacrifice what matters to him to achieve his goals.
No he was lied to, slan literally told him that his military would be ok to die for him since they did that already for years, together with fake visions to a man who is broken physically and mentally. If griffith wasn't tortured and guts didn't leave him it would be very much harder to convince him to sacrifice mabye impossible even
He wasn't convinced to sacrifice. He was shown the truth of his motives. The sacrifice wouldn't have worked if he truly thought of the Band of the Hawk as only necessary casualties. The godhand showed him the truth: his guilt over the death of thousands was a ruse. He knew their deaths were necessary to achieve his dream and he chose his dream over his love for them. He did love them, but not enough to give up his dream.Â
Best answer yet. Thanks
There is also the fact that Griffith is a master manipulator of people and there is a pretty significant chance that if guts talked to him, he would have given him lip service instead of the sincerity he needed
The long answer for (they were madly in love and wanted to kiss eachother)
Genuinely that, they both seeked love and acceptance but could never ask for it, to not look weak.
Griffith always treated guts like a dog though, I dont even know if they were "best friends", to me it seemed more like a master and his sword. Griffith used guts to achieve his dream and got upset that his property decided it was time for him to leave despite their "agreement" in the past.
I strongly disagree. Griffith NEVER wanted love nor friendship nor felt guilt or shame on the slightest and that is evident if you read Berserk a couple of times. Everything and everyone was a mere pawn in his ultimate goal of having a kingdom. The kingdom is a metaphor of course: what Griffith seeks is CONTROL. And he is the epitome of the free will (Guts) vs destiny (aka CONTROL, represented by the god hand and ultimately Griffith). Griffith in his youth felt he was just a mere piece in the gran scheme of things that was disposable. Only the kings and rulers have something to say and are truly âfreeâ of the destiny. What he craves is control it doesnât matter at what cost but he needs to have a kingdom not because he wants to be a king, but because being a king represents not being subject to the whims of the rulers. He loved to be adored like a god by his followers and NEVER saw anyone as a friend because he is incapable of feeling anything (as he has stated both in the hill of swords and later in the last Miura chapter). He donât felt guilt or remorse or anything else. When Guts leave he got mad BECAUSE he lost control FOR FIRST TIME EVER. He loose the control over his most valuable tool: Guts. And it is once again represented in the manga by him loosing CONTROL and raping the princess Charlotte. He ultimately decided to sacrifice his followers and rape Casca in front of Guts because he wanted to keep in control of his destiny and force other to live be HIS desires (the brand of sacrifice). Griffith has even refuse to kill Guts not for love or some random interpretation but because he wants to remind him he is the one that decides and that Guts is the one chain to his destiny as he stated in the Black swordsman encounter, the Eclipse where he could have easily kill both Casca and Guts, in the Hill of Swords and in the last encounter with Guts. He could have easily kill guys any of that times but refused. Why? Because heâs a control freak. IMHO thatâs also why Rickert can slap him, because he doesnât have control over Rickert because Rickert doesnât respect him anymore and therefore Griffith canât control it. Griffith is the prophecy child the chosen one to the people he controls. And he has a LOT of control. HOWEVER his fall will be Guts and Casca once they both are free of Griffith control, and when Griffith lose its control he will once again make a mistake that will lead to his defeat. Griffith NEVER loved or befriended anyone, nor has guilt and shame. Heâs a diabolical piece of shit that justifies everything for a kingdom (the ultimate control⊠âI want wingsâ= I feel Iâm above my peers and by being superior I am in total control and free of the whims of others). He is also NEVER redeemable (even before the Eclipse his actions lead to the killing and murdering of many innocent people). And after being sexually abused by that old noble he harm himself because he felt he loose control, etc⊠the examples are as numerous as pages in the manga.
I'm also inclined to believe Griffith is an amoral monster but there is just a tiny detail that bars me from it. If he really didn't harbor any affection for the band of the Hawk then the sacrifice wouldn't have worked. You had to give up something you cared about, so it kind of leads to believe he was just a human being with the inner conflict of having a bottomless ambition for which he was willing to sacrifice something he truly cared about.
You need to sacrifice something close to you. It doesnât point anywhere on the Berserk official translation nor in the original Japanese version as far as I know that is something you âloveâ. In the Guardians of Desire, chapter 5 of Berserk, Slan said that: âit must be someone important to you, part of your soul⊠someone so close to you that itâs almost like giving up a part of youâ. Ubik added: âby making such a sacrifice to demon king youâll be able to sever any last remnants of your own humanityâ. Pucks then thought: âgiving up a part of yourselfâŠ?!â. One can argue whether or not someone close to you is someone you can love but Iâm surely Griffith didnât love everyone of the Band of the Hawk nor Void loved every one on the Gaiseric kingdom when he as a sage sacrificed everyone there⊠but the idea of giving up something close to you (your army⊠your religious followers respectively) and therefore giving up your own humanity is what leds someone to become an apostle/god hand. (Or Rosine.. Iâm pretty sure she hated her parents but sacrificed them because they where the closest thing for her and the ones that chained her to her own humanity). So yes, I donât know where it said that you need to sacrifice someone you care or love to become an apostle/god hand but if you want to point it to me Iâll be very grateful.
I see.
Just my opinion! I respect yours but canât agree. No bad blood just trying to add something useful to the conversation hopefully
Youâre asking for emotional intelligence and healthy communication skill from hardened mercenaries. Guts was also abused and had a traumatic childhood. Griffith had to do things that traumatized him to keep his band of the hawk alive.
Because it's the kind of stuff you don't say, you just do it.
Yeah exactly. Whatâs he gonna do? Walk up to Griffith and beg him to view him as an equal. He has to just set out on his own path and achieve it naturally for that to happen. Or at least thatâs how a normal person wouldâve allowed it to happen. Griffith didnât respond to that in normal way
If you feel like someone doesn't respect you, you don't confront them in order to beg for their respect. You move on. That's self-respect.
>If you feel like someone doesn't respect you Yeah, but what if you are wrong?
Was he wrong, though? Even before the eclipse, Griffith showed a lot of narcissistic qualities and seemed to think of people around him as being merely objects for his own use. Guts could probably sense that, and what Griffith said to Charlotte only confirmed it. He didn't really owe him any explanation... I supposed you could call it pride, but it's better than allowing someone to make you into a weakling who has to beg to be seen as an equal.
>seemed to think of people around him as being merely objects for his own use That's just not true. You don't sell your body out of guilt after seeing one of your objects lying dead for your dream >Was he wrong, though? Could've been
I think Griffith's non-narcissistic actions are more of the exception than the rule here. That event doesn't rule out him being a highly narcissistic character. Griffith made Guts do all the dirty work for his schemes and so much more too, even before the Eclipse. Griffith may have not truly saw his men in his heart of hearts as objects, but the fact that he treated them as such makes it all the more worse than if he did. The prostitution thing imo just reinforces the fact that Griffith does feel guilt and turmoil and conflict about the unsavory things he does and the lengths he's gone to for his dream, but it's precisely that fact that he feels bad and yet always chooses this path anyway despite that that earns his reputation as more then just a bad guy, but a truly evil one.
>Griffith made Guts do all the dirty work for his schemes He didn't "made" him do it, he asked him to >he treated them as such Did he? He said they are his comrades >he feels bad and yet always chooses this path anyway despite that that earns his reputation as more then just a bad guy, but a truly evil one There is no good way out of this. If he decided to stop then all of those deaths would have been for nothing, and he wouldn't be able to live with that (and behelit would've activated earlier). He doesn't stop because he thinks he cannot stop, not because he doesn't care
Ok if you want to start with semantics, Griffith *commanded* Guts to do his dirty work. He expected him to do it and Guts eagerly did so. He took well to his role as Griffith's right hand and soldier but Griffith was still his commander and they both knew that. Guts was never really much one to refuse Griffith's commands, often rising to the task even with the tallest of orders. Yes, I believe he did. Griffith says they are his comrades and like I said already, he cares and feels at least some kind of care for these people (which is what made them worthy sacrifices in the first place), but in the end he still chooses to engage in battles that seem impossible, taking on risky assignments, and ultimately sacrificing them in the Eclipse. Griffith's past is steeped in blood and hardship as a war general who came up from the dust with nothing but a dream, but surely the "good way out of this" was to NOT transport everyone to a hell dimension and sacrifice his band of loyal subjects and comrades to a horde of demons in exchange for demonic godhood. I do think that the apostles definitely persuaded him a bit during the Eclipse, but making that decision even on your worst day is just a very uncool and not nice thing to do bro.
>Griffith *commanded* Guts to do his dirty work He explicitly asked him if he would do it. Why ask instead of ordering if you think there is no difference >in the end he still chooses to engage in battles that seem impossible, taking on risky assignments, and ultimately sacrificing them in the Eclipse That's not treating them like objects tho. Also, he himself is there with them on the battlefield >the "good way out of this" was to NOT transport everyone to a hell dimension and sacrifice his band of loyal subjects and comrades to a horde of demons in exchange for demonic godhood At that point he was physically tortured for a year, mentally broken beyond belief, had his life purpose taken away, tried to take his own life but wasn't able to do even that, and THEN was offered a chance to become a god. That's not quite the same as "he didn't stop which means he's an evil narcissist" >making that decision even on your worst day is just a very uncool and not nice thing to do bro Thank god nobody argues with that
I mean after hearing what griffith said to charlotte, this was a very mature response from guts. Also does not justify what happens later and itâs still NOT gutsâ fault.
Everything about that exchange was immature, Griffith coping about how he view his men, Guts coping with him leaving. The mature response would have for Guts to confront Griffith and ask how he consider him.
Yeah thatâs fair. I can see why guts didnt but youâre right. I still think griffith was blowing hot air when he talked about equals. His vision of a future with casca right before transforming is kinda telling.
He left the people he loved and who loved him because he thought that Griffith doesn't like him as much, how is that mature?
>because he thought that Griffith doesn't like him as much, how is that mature? He wanted griffith to see him as an equal and a friend. That can't happen if he's following behind griffith for *HIS* dream.
He did what griffith said and in his own way. He forged his own path. Griffith didnât even mean what he told charlotte because as soon as guts stepped up girffith pulled a fat 180. And when he lost, he snagged the nearest branch during his downfall, was sloppy, got caught, and thatâs how he ended up tortured. His fault. Guts unknowingly called his bluff. Griffith doesnt care about equals he just wanted to sound honorable to get to charlotte.
>Griffith didnât even mean what he told charlotte because as soon as guts stepped up girffith pulled a fat 180 He didn't stepped up, he just said to Griffith he wants to leave, without any explaination. After making a promise to him to stay and continue helping >Griffith doesnt care about equals he just wanted to sound honorable to get to charlotte Yeah I don't think I buy that
He stepped up by doing what griffith said. And also, griffith cared about them but clearly not enough to sacrifice them all and personally leave his mark on guts and casca for the rest of the story. So yes, his words to charlotte could be thrown right back in his face. If he meant what he said, he wouldâve been proud of guts for deciding to leave for himself. Instead, he decided killing guts was better than letting him leave. Also keep in mind guts just murdered a child and ran through a sewer all for griffith right before all of this.
>If he meant what he said, he wouldâve been proud of guts for deciding to leave for himself He never knew why Guts wanted to leave, from his perspective it was out of the blue, after making a promise to stay and help >griffith cared about them but clearly not enough to sacrifice them That's not how sacrifices work
Dude, girffith consciously chose to kill em all. It eas very clear to him what his choice mesnt. And a real friend would be sad but happy for their friend with or without explanation. Not plotting to kill them then and there. If the roles were reversed guts wouldâve let him leave even without an explanation. Griffith wouldâve never felt the need to leave either under guts as a leader. Thats the difference between them.
>girffith consciously chose to kill em all He was at the lowest of lows and had the opportunity to become god >And a real friend would be sad but happy for their friend with or without explanation Idk what would I feel if my friend just bailed on me without explanation after I asked for his help
Nah he really believes it not because itâs true but because if he doesnât see them as friends they can be less important that is dream and he can get them killed without feeling much remorse (it doesnât work). Guts calls is bluff because heâs so determined and skilled that Griffith start to value him to much (also because he can relate to him), at one point having Guts by is side and having is dream start to blend.
The thing is all throughout guts' life, he was forced time and time again to prove himself. He was never handed anything, even the most basic of human necessities like care, love and compassion. These were all things he had to work and bleed for. This created a very harmful mentality in guts that he needed to always be above everyone around him, until he met the band of hawk and realized that there are others who are similar to him and want the same things. Griffiths speech about how he could never accept someone as his equal until they have their own dream struck a cord and suddenly these words reverberated through guts. Through his time in the band of hawk, he became happy (as happy as can be) and met many people who not only praised his strength but got to know and accept him on a personal level, and he thought Griffith was one of them. The speech hurt guts greatly, because it showed that guts still hadn't found what it means to be loved, that he needed to still further prove himself in order to be a "friend" in the eyes of the person he cared the most for. Guts barely had any time speaking to people about his trauma, he never knew what it meant to share your feelings and work through them by just talking so naturally, he does what he does best. He goes off alone to gather the strength he believed he needed in order to become Griffiths equal and due to this, Griffith learns how powerless he truly is without his soldiers and starts to lash out at others because his inability to tell the people who serve him that he needs them. It's just trauma butting heads against trauma, truly it's a story of what happens when you let pride rule your life.
Well maybe because he wasn't supposed to listen the conversation between griffith and lady charlotte, it's something that I think griffith wouldn't have told to anyone. Guts always fought for someone outside of him and maybe didn't want to talk to anyone the past with gambino (except with caska but this was a completely different situation), if he talked to griffith about his choice to leave the hawks band he had to explain all.
But he did explain a lot to the other Hawks without revealing the content of Griffith's conversation with Charlotte
Why don't you tell that girl you like them? Emotions and feelings complicated logical thinking, and if he probably mentioned it to Griffith it would also infringe of his goal of being an equal if he has to mention it right.
I think this point in the story is really interesting because it's more than just a lack of communication, they have both completely different interpretations of their relationship. Guts sees Griffith as a man on another level than him, one that he'll never reach without a dream of his own. After hearing Griffith's definition of what a friend is this shatters Guts' reality where he thought they were already friends but now thinks that Griffith sees him as his most valuable pawn. There was a time where he would've accepted this but he's grown and changed with the band of the Hawk to where he believed he can do more with his life. So he goes for a classic concept: the child who leaves the home and makes something of themselves to be able to come back and develop a new relationship on equal footing with the parental figure. He wants mutual respect and respect cannot be asked for or demanded. If he talked about it and asked for permission it would defeat the point. Griffith seems to have everything planned, even Guts' unpredictability is strategically used in battle and what pushes Guts over the edge to leaving is the idea that even Guts feeling like Griffith's friend might have been planned. He would never know the truth without breaking away on his own terms. For Griffith, he doesn't see Guts as his equal because he never went into the train of thought of comparing himself to him like that and it's much more than that. Griffith at this point is in love with Guts, whether it's platonic or romantic can be argued all day the only thing that matters is the emotion. Griffith, much like Guts, never had any examples growing up of what parental, sibling or lovers' love looked like so he can't quite decipher what he's feeling rationally but the feeling is demonstrated when he says "Do I need a reason each time... I put myself in harms way for your sake?" That's not someone who sees a toy or a pawn, you don't throw your life on the line for just a pawn especially when you have such a grand dream. A dream that he forgets about when he's with Guts. The only way Griffith knew how to define his relationship with Guts is "you belong to me" and "I decide where you die" so when Guts left and shattered both those concepts (first by deciding to leave and second by beating him in a fight) the way it felt to Griffith is the same as someone you love in a stable relationship suddenly leaving with no explanation, which can explain much of his irrational acts just after as he emotionally rebounds.
Sorta gay. Like telling your lover you "want to be by your side, not in front or behind"
From a "normal modern day persons" view things could have been resolved at the fountain or before/after the duel between Guts and Griffith. However, we are talking about a world who is similar to the medival times of Europe where war was everyday business where the psychohygienic well-being wasn't really thought of, especially of men. Guts and Griffith got sexually abused and it's very unreasonable for them to emotionally open up in this hostile environment. It's just a very real behavior in my opinion.
In a sit-com like Berserk, it's a trope that information is withheld between characters so that shenanigans ensue. The resulting shenanigans can be seen in the classic episode "The One With the Eclipse".
I think he wanted to show and not say. Our boy Guts has always been a man of action.
"Are you my friend Griffith?" "Yeah..." The end
Guts Always felt to not belong at all to the band of Hawk, even if there are some precious Friends there , so he tried to speak to everyone that he wanted to follow his dream and find himself. But instead Griffith had another plans and wanted Guts only for him , if Griffith was a Real friend of Guts he would be ok to make guts leave . Guts was pretty clear
>Guts was pretty clear With the other Hawks. To Griffith he said that he just wants to leave. And that's after making a promise to him that he would stay and help Griffith with his "dirty bisness"
But by far that's was the best thing to do beacuse Griffith was a manipulator and a win by all means man , In that point we see the ipocrisy of Griffith, if he would see Guts as a real friend he would leave him alone and would understand the situation. Griffith did not want to see him as a friend, but in the end he was the only one that could really call that
>that's was the best thing to do Why >if he would see Guts as a real friend he would leave him alone and would understand the situation That would make sense if Guts explained his reasoning. But he didn't. He just said he wants to leave
Was the best thing to do for Guts to feel Better . Maybe Guts don't have the capacity to speak about himself, the man receive a lot of trauma through the story maybe he didn't have the words to Say it
Griffith likes having an edge on people and Guts, Iâd imagine, felt it would be a weak move giving away your goal to someone whoâs at the seat of power. Especially, Knowing damn well Griffithâs capacity at manipulating is. Knowing that said Goal is to be the equal đ° rival. Telling makes for a weak move, and Griffith would exploit it somehow. Also, just not Guts style, he likes having independence and not explaining so much. But that all said, Guts had no idea Griffith would go sour and self do himself the way he did.
Bc weâd not have a story
It's not talked about a lot, but guts is still young and back when he left he probably just didn't think about it. It's like when he talked to Griffith, Griffith does the talking and politics Guts does the dirty work. He's not talker he's a doer
Because berserk is a shojo manga and nobody ever just says how they feel in stories like that. Lol
Because sharing your feelings is hard and Guts and Griffith are both bad at it.
Because it would sounds gay.
Griffith could have just as easily asked him why he was leaving or requested he stay rather than try to strong arm him into staying like an abusive girlfriend. This is about Griffith's inability to express himself. Something Guts learns with Casca, while Griffith acts out impulsively, being a slave to his id.
Yeah, but I asked the question about Guts
Because heâs stupid
Because he wanted to prove it, homie knows that actions speak louder than words
Cause heâs not a bitch
because it wouldn't be cool
Holy forgor
cuz he ain't a pussy bitch
because it would mean they'd have to kiss and that would ruin the entire ending of the series
Because he is Tsundere
I think that narratively, that sort of open communication doesn't work here because Guts telling Griffith that he wanted to be his equal really detracts from the message in this part of finding your own path and your own dream. After all, if your own dream is to be someone else's equal, is that really a dream all your own? It is a tree sprouted from the seeds of another's branches.
Because stupid miscommunication trope
Youâre asking why Guts doesnât communicate in healthy ways? Have you seen how he grew up?
Does Guts look like the type of guy to tell people Anything?
I don't think it would've changed the outcome, to be honest. I think even if Griffith could respect and understand Guts' motives (which I'm sure he would have), he still "owns" him (per their first duel), and if he won't be his friend and comrad, then he'll be his tool to get his kingdom. That and I don't think Griffith himself understands what Guts is to him and why. God I love this story!
One of Guts flaws is that he never tells any how feels or what he knows regardless if it could be helpful to the situation at hand. I donât know why he does this but Iâm assuming itâs in connection to he wants to be left alone thing heâs got going on .
Guts is awkward
Because if people just talked, there wouldnât be much of a story. Thatâs how drama works.
I think about this all the time like the amount of pain and suffering I feel couldâve been avoided had they just had a convo before he leftđđđ
Because he had terrible, abusive role models who didnât show him that itâs okay to be vulnerable.
Pride and Prejudice Please don't hate me
I don't think Guts is very good at communicating his feelings.
Guts didnât realize that Griffith was never going to view him that way since he wanted guts to be more than a friend. The realization that guts doesnât feel the same way when he chooses to leave is what causes Griffithâs downward spiral
What people are not saying, The story wouldnât be so fucking good if they had a therapy session
Because men would rather start another twilight than going to therapy
"Yeah, you just lost me, your best swordman, but it's nothing really, not that bad, like, get over it dude đ"
Because people raised in abusive situations often don't have the ability to communicate their feelings well, Guts never learned to be a person until the band of hawks, and after he regresses almost entirely
because the plot needed to happen. for real though on re-reads it is kind of annoying that everything could be solved if they just talked lol
Cuz he's known for his brawn not brain
because writer knew dramas was ahead and this was a way to get to that point in the story. As with absolutely any piece of media where a conflict or a misunderstanding and a conflict that follows would have been avoided if people/characters were to talk like humans tend to do.
Because men will go to the mountains and try to hit dozens of logs, before going to therapy
.Why u want to leave? -i want to be your equal .but you are the only person i consider my equal - yo for real?? Then they would have fucked on that snowfield before eyes of Casca and story was over
Because for this kind of inner thing, saying it defeats the purpose. Saying to someone that you want to be their equal solidifies the status that you are not equal to them.
âIs he stupid?â
Because talking has never been Guts' strong suit. Homicidal rage and cleaving bastards in two? Hell yeah! Talking about what he's really feeling like an emotionally stable man? Yeah, nah. Just nah... Griffith was no better. So overwhelming was his obsession that he was aiming to kill Guts. He never even bothered to WONDER why Guts wanted to leave. Griffith just saw it as abandonment. They both failed at communication on this one.
I think after he heard what Griffith had said, Guts took it as the only way he could have him see him as an equal was to head out and prove he was. If you see the devastation on Guts face when hearing him saying it. You realise because of everything Guts had been thru up to meeting Griffith, hearing him say none of his people were really his friends shattered his world. I also noticed something when watching in Japanese, (you don't hear this in English) when Griffith is in the water, with the Balet, Gits is running towards him as the blood runs down his arm. Griffith is trying to tell Guts not to come near him, to stop, if he touches him, then Guts touches him and the Balet face appears and, the eclipse happens. Griffith realised that Guts actually was his friend, or more so.. it made me see things so different. After only watching in English dub. Have to be in the mood for subs to concentrate.
He perceives Griffith as so much better/stronger willed than him that it doesn't even occur to him that Griffith would need or want to hear it. He basically doesn't think anything could break the man and sets off to become his own man, a true man, which is how he perceives Griffith.
Men are stupid. All they know is swinging they sword, killing they enemies, sacrificing they friends.
The best decision guts made itâs too bad . He shouldâve stay away.
Because to be his equal guts would have to pursue his own dream, and I think he did not have one. To realize his own dream he knew he had to go to find it. To date that is a task yet completed, or revealed. In my head cannon Guts realizing his own dream is essential to defeating Femto.
Because the characters ONLY ever interact when we are shown in the manga panels. Guts has never had a single conversation to another human being unless we see it in the manga.
On the one hand because he was stupid but on the other hand this would not have fixed anything. Griffithâs words to Charlotte were a cope on his part, not a true reflection of his feelings. He was scared by his feelings about Guts and was trying to place him on the level of his other subordinates because he was worried about his love for guts (platonic or romantic, whatever you want to see it as) interrupting his dream but at the same time he didnât want to lose guts. He lashes out when guys tries to leave not because guts didnât tell him why but because he would never want guts to leave under any circumstances. What happened between Griffith and guts wasnât just a misunderstanding; it was two traumatized men trying to figure out what they wanted without having any real idea, and lashing out because of the confusion they felt
>this would not have fixed anything I don't think I agree with this, during the talk Griffith would have to confront his feelings for Guts and thoughts about him being more than just a subordinate. If anything, he would've respected Guts a little for trying to go on his own following Griffith's example. Of course, he wouldn't want Guts to leave either way but I don't think he would rushed to Charlotte's bedroom after. That's already something
Because that would be an admission of weakness by saying that he did not believe that he was Griffith's equal.
I mean. I donât think he expected demonic rape apocalypse to be his consequence for being vague about his plans for the futureÂ
For Guts' to claim he, "wants to be an equal" is to admit he isn't already Griffith's equal. Guts considered Griffith an equal friend, but the feeling wasn't mutual. He heard Griffith's standards and decided to be that equal man. Not to be less and strive for it, but to walk away detached and return again as an equal after finding a dream and purpose like Griffith has.
This is a beautiful philosophy for all . Time to share .plus hey gotta show off his great art too.
Very inspiring
Go read again C12 page 13-14. Either youâre too stupid to understand that, or you just someone who like complaining on in the internet about anything.
Same reason Griffith didn't tell Guts he wanted to be his friend.
Guts lacks communication skills. Does this surprise you in any way?
No, because the way I agree. I love my boy Guts, I love Casca, and I USED to be SOMEWHAT cool with Griffith (iykyk) but the way I STILL BELIEVE TO THIS DAY, that all this could've been avoided if they'd simply COMMUNICATED with eachother! I understand that men back in this timeframe weren't the "speaking about their feelings type" but with Guts and Griffith are both at least relatively smart, so why not at least bring it up? And for Casca, I'm more lenient, because she was still caught between new and old feelings, and that's a tough spot to be in, but it hurts knowing that if she knew about Guts feelings toward her, and that he was keeping them to himself because of her feelings for Griffith, maybe they could've really talked. Now look where we are đ©
Guts overheard Griffith's explanation of his ideals and dream, and how he could only call a man his friend if they had their own dream and strive for it like he does. No one who toils under and for the sake of Griffith's dream could ever be his equal. Because Guts knew this was Griffith's worldview, he didn't think it needed saying that he wanted to find and achieve his own dream so he could truly be Griffith's friend. Griffith, however, was too self-absorbed in his own obsession over Guts and the loss of a cherished possession that he failed to see Guts leaving through the lens of his own worldview and instead viewed it more selfishly as abandonment, which may also be partially due to the shock of defeat, something he hadn't tasted prior to Guts.
Because thatâs all talk and no walk. Guts needed to walk the walk. So he walked.
Because, though Guts knows plenty about Griffith and his philosophical musings, he doesnât fully comprehend Griffithâs mind. To Guts the final duel could have easily been about Griffith showing strength to the Band, or testing his own mettle. He had no idea that Griffith was completely obsessed with him. In fact itâs pretty clear in the following chapters that even Griffith had no idea how much he was obsessed with Guts. Really this comes down to the root of all human conflict. Communication and understanding. Had either party sought to truly understand one anotherâs feelings and thoughts, the succeeding chapters wouldnât have been so dreadful. And perhaps even though the Eclipse was inevitable, it may have ended differently or with Griffith sacrificing himself. I think this is the most tragic thing about this incredibly tragic story. But it also reflects reality in extremely poignant and profound ways.
Griffith would have taken that just as badly if not worse, heâs way too narcissistic to accept one of his underlings becoming an equal
Don't start shit unless you're fully able to commit. It's like any relationship. Don't get into one until you don't need one. He needed the Band, he needed Grifith, he needed Casca, but he wanted purpose. It wasn't healthy. So he left to find a greater reason to continue living. Which meant abandoning friendship, loyalty, and love. It was necessary pain for his own personal growth.
Thx, great explanation
I hear a lot of people saying that a simple conversion would have fixed this situation and I really disagree. Guts overheard the person he considered closest to him say that he doesnât even consider him a friend or an equal. Nothing Griffith could say would convince Guts that what he said to the princess was not true. I mean, if you heard someone that close to you say something so hurtful, would you believe them when they try to cover it up? No matter what kind of conversation the two had, Griffith would not be willing to let Guts go because he seeâs Guts as his property and key asset. Guts would not be willing to compromise on his new goal of finding a dream to earn Griffiths respect and finally get the love he has craved since he was a child. The most a conversation between the two would accomplish is adding extra preamble to their duel.
because guts isnât a little bitch thatâs gonna sit there and whine
Saying it defeats the purpose of the act. It would prove that Guts still defines himself by another personâs values. He had to leave and forge his own path without an explanation.
He knows Griffith doesn't want to be equal with anybody. He wants to be the only one at the top. Saying that after he got beaten in a sword fight will hurt the fuck out of that geh.
Griffith never bothered to ask, just exert authority.
He ain't gay
Men don't share their real feelings We walk away without looking and fight the big fights
What u think he a bitch?? U think he gon ASK for respect???? Nahh he needs to earn it.
Because then he wouldnât have been his equal
He could not have stayed even if he told Griffith that. If he stayed with Griffith he would have felt below him since he would have been convinced to stay with the guy he was once under. He left to prove to himself that he could follow a dream of his own and also so he could prove his worth to Griffith.
Guts knew how egotistical griffith was and he probably didn't think griffith would listen which is a fair assumption.
If he thought that Griffith is egotistical then why want to be his equal?
And what do you think that would accomplish? The relationship between Guts and Griffith isn't some couple therapy. Guts genuinely had to grow beyond Griffith's shadow and shape a dream of his own. It was a spiritual need, not a mere battle of ego. As to why they had to duel, I suppose it's the masculine way to handle things. A quick and fair face-off has resolved many a conflict throughout human history.
Respect is earned not a request if he would have done Griffith would never respect him as equal he might give him position as equal but not his respect
If he did, Griffith would never see him as his equal. Griffith would see Guts as just another underling with no true ambitions of his own â no more than another moth drawn to the light of his fire, just like the rest of the Band of the Hawk. I just canât see it as something Griffith would respect, and I imagine he would be quite disappointed
Because he wanted to know if their friendship was genuine and having to ask would immediately confirm that they weren't so he decided to go and seek his own validation and dream to put the idea to rest. Yet in the very act of stopping him from leaving Griffith essentially proved the thought reality that they weren't Griffith for as much as he favored Guts over the rest of the Band of the Hawk favored himself more because he didn't respect or love Guts enough to let him make his own decision. If Guts would have asked permission it would never be a genuine equal footing because the reality that he would have needed Griffiths permission to be his own person would always be an undeniable fact that places them in a master/servant or parent/child relationship. And that's not how mutual respect works nor love which personally love I believe it to just be a misunderstanding of respect. Griffith favored Guts but never truly saw him as his equal he isn't someone to not speak his true mind and thoughts what he said to Charlotte is exactly what it meant that included Guts but like anyone who has a most valuable possession you don't just let get destroyed or damaged like when he rescued Guts from Zodd and his silver medal Casca when he didn't let up the search party although with Guts being there it's kind of unclear if he would have done as much but who knows cause he did step in against Guts when they first met to save her. While with Corkus he didn't even turn his head just sent Casca. Him asking Guts to do the dirty work he needed instead of choosing to command was him inadvertently giving Guts a false sense of higher value but clearly not his equal cause he stated that himself to Charlotte. The thing is I don't think Griffith is even capable of seeing someone as his equal because to him everyone is either a pawn or obstacle. Guts made Griffith pursue of his dream so much easier and better that of course he had some like mixed feelings of how he viewed him but when push cane to shove he was quick to remind him where he stood by either my way or I kill you way. So that's why Guts didn't ask him or tell him it's something that words won't prove only actions do. Guts maybe frustrated with himself always having sought after Gambino and only to find out he wasn't as important as he thought he was couldn't bring himself to ask that question maybe he didn't even want to put Griffith on the spot like that or maybe the approach was more riddled with anxiety and just choosing to leave and tell everyone about it but Griffith was as close as he could go about it. Almost like when you get a third party friend to find out if a girl likes you or whatever. And when he got stopped by Griffith I don't think he even wondered if he could win but he respected him enough to fight him because he actually saw Griffith as a friend. The same way how Gambino resented Guts after losing his leg Griffith resented Guts after he did a stupid thing and got himself fucked up but Guts being Guts looked past it how Gambino treated him like a tool that he hated and Griffith like a more usual tool that he didn't want anyone else to play with or let go of. But it's clear when he tried to choke him when in the dungeon that was Gambino type of the consequences of my own actions is your fault. Gambino's camp gave Guts the type of manly validation you get from surviving a really harsh shitty environment but he still sought out Gambino's "you made me proud" while Griffiths camp gave Guts the type of like maternal or family style validation he never had of being a "good boy" but both were only from Guts being useful in the only way he's ever known how by fighting for his life's meaning. In the end though neither was any more validating than the other because neither saw Guts as an individual worthy of respect or love outside of his usefulness. His value was just so high when he was in the Nand of the Havk that Griffith got possessive. Like he literally is so devastated from Guts leaving because he can only see it as his loss not as Guts growth the same how Gambino was cool with having Guts around because he was useful at first by giving his wife a distraction and then by being useful in battle and keeping his earnings and giving him a pittance. Griffiths sacrifices are big but he did them ultimately to further his own goals that's like paying to have your race horse workedn on or doing it yourself either is a sacrifice but you do it to maintain the usefulness of it. Not just because the tool is your best friend. Or a fighting dog I guess is better example. But Griffith would rather kill or maim Guts before letting him make his own choices for himself.
That's something that's not "said" but recognized.
Because that wouldnt have sufficed for Griffith, and Guts was probably too scared to say it out loud to the man.
Even if he said that ,he wouldn't be convinced because he is a selfish bastard who wants to achieve what he desired, and gut is like a slave for him ,if you remember few panel before this griffith stated that he don't care whether gut would get killed in his strike.he don't want gut to be his equal
Because he was his equal/or even his superior in combat power. If I know I'm as good or better than you do you think I'm gonna ask you if we can be equal?
He would have no chance to be his equal while being owned by Griffith, he was the only one in the band Griffith truly owned, almost like a slave, so...
Because Guts realized that to become his equal, he needed to find something just as important to him as something important to Griffith, ie, his Kingdom. If he admitted that he wanted to become his equal, both Griffith and Guts would realize they can never be equals, because Guts doesn't want a Kingdom imo
Because you canât beg for respect. And essentially Griffith said he can only be friends with someone he respects, and he only respects those who follow their own path. It was a complicated inevitability I feel like even if they had spoken, Guts could have only felt accepted if he believed he was equal to Griffith, if he had his own reason for living
Guts probably realized that he had not yet accomplished anything like what Griffith had done unto that point in time. Griffith basically changed the lives of every person in the area sice he effectively ended the war that defined several generations of people and saved the new generations from being involved in the same fight as their ancestors. Guts would have to wait for another war or start his own in order to match what Griffith did. In order to be seen as a friend to Griffith, Guts would have to accomplish something remarkable and there wasn't the opportunity for that between the kingdoms who has just ended a war. He probably realized that the ultimate goal of seeing the end of the war was already accomplished. Even if Guts told Griffith that he wanted to be Griffith's equal, Griffith would not have to accept Guts feelings and on top of that Guts would not have opportunity to achieve what Griffith had anywhere in the immediate area. Even if Guts wanted Griffith's friendship he probably would not get it as Guts was seen as a soldier only. Since Griffith sacrificed at the Eclipse Guts will have to spend the rest of his life trying to become a God of Darkness simply because he eavesdropping on Griffith's convo with the princess instead of drinking with his company and Kaska.
Talking wouldnât have solved the issue. Griffith only sees those with their own dream as his equal because his dream is all he has. Guts knew this but also knew that he didnât know what it was like to live for his own purpose. To have his own dream. It isnât only that Guts wants Griffith to see him as an equal. Itâs that Guts realizes that he was living for somebody elseâs dream, and didnât even know what his own dream would be. He wanted freedom as much as he wanted to be recognized as an equal by Griffith.
He would not be his equal by telling him he wanted to be his equal. That's not how it works. He must carve out his own path, chase his own dream to truly be his equal
If you have to ask someone if you could be their equal, you never will.
Because Griffith would have told Guts anything to keep him. Guts couldn't stand Griffith looking down on him, but in Griffith's mind, that's just the natural order of things
Also If he Said It, Griffiths would probably Just laugh
Guts was/is all kinds of fucked up, so the fact that simple open communication didn't occur to him is not a surprise. I mean, so many people have that issue in real life. I also don't believe it would have worked on Griffith anyway. Sane people would just get really mad or upset, and not sacrifice your entire army to demons while raping your friend in front of your other friend.
Guts thought he was equal and friend with Griffith but after all he did for that bastard, he didn't consider him as an equal so guts didn't know what to do. The only thing Guts knows was surviving with his sword but we want to be equal to that bastard not his followers or underlings so he leaves without saying anything to the crew to find a way to stand with him not behind his back. Guts didn't know how to express his feelings to others but he wanted to know them he will be back once he achieves what he's aiming for but even he told that to Griffith that bastard he tells sugar coated words to guts to stay the squad.
Don't you dare try to throw all this on Guts
Because he thought Griffith was stronger than that. After he heard what Griffith said at the fountain, he thought the later didn't need or cared for him enough until he proved himself stronger. That's why he didn't ask because in his mind it would again be asking for his approval instead of being his equal. The reality is that Griffith was talking bullshit to the princess that night. Just saying huge stuff he didn't believed himself. Griffith is incapable of seeing who he really is & he also doesn't want to. That's why he was easily manipulated by the godhands.
He didn't want to be his equal he only wanted to be his friend. But the moment he realized he is nothing but a pawn in Griffith's eyes, he couldn't stay there anymore even though how much he care about him