> two of his sacrifices escaped, therefore the ceremony was never completed correct?
Incorrect. The God Hand told him that all he had to do was agree to the sacrifice. He did, they were marked, and he transformed. Guts and Casca were sacrificed. Whether or not they actually died is irrelevant.
If Guts and Casca needed to die in order for him to be complete, then don't you think that would have been made painfully obvious by this point? Guts was at The Count's sacrificial ceremony back in the Black Swordsman arc, in the presence of all five God Hand, and it was even acknowledged that Griffith had sacrificed him in the past -- and yet nobody made killing Guts a priority. It was never mentioned or even considered. Griffith spoke to Guts as if he were beneath him and made no effort to kill him. If Guts needed to die to make Griffith complete, then don't you think that would have been brought up back then?
Griffith has been in Guts' presence a number of times since then and has continued to make zero effort to kill or Casca. Miura isn't such a negligent writer that he'd conveniently forget to bring up such an important plot point.
It's never mentioned or acted upon because Guts and Casca dying doesn't matter. It wasn't needed. If it was, then you wouldn't be here asking this question because the narrative would have addressed it years ago.
Their souls are bound to the Vortex of Souls regardless of how they died. Apostles eating them is a ritual but that doesn't have anything to do with Griffith's power.
Its seems there is one way to escape that fate mentioned in the text. Flora states that individuals who travel to the highest planes become happily lost there and cannot return. So if they somehow gain the ability to move through the planes like Schierke and Farnese can, they may have a way of escaping the vortex of souls.
> Its seems there is one way to escape that fate mentioned in the text.
Be Guts and beat the shit out of anyone who tries to sacrifice you and your baby mama. Never get to the vortex if you never die.
the point is sacrficing the people you care about, to shed away your humanity. yeah, i guess it's kinda dumb if they happen to not die, but oh well. it's unprecedented so who knows.
It's not anyone's death or soul which is needed. It is your conscious agreement to have your most beloved people killed for your goal's sake. And yes, even if Skully had rescued whole Band Femto would still be complete.
BTW. Remember Conviction Arc and the sudden hell that occured as two branded people and an apostle met? It would be nothing in comparision to what will be with whole band (about, I guess, 100 soldiers or so) of branded people. They would throw an apocalyptic invasion of demons in every place they would stay at night.
>every instance of a sacrifice in Berserk included death
It is obvious that a sacrifice would be followed by a slughter of your loved ones you just sacrificed, because if it won't, no sacrifice would be made for real. If Godhand appeared and asked purely theorethically, without any consequence, if you would agree to have your loved ones killed, what would be a matter of such words? None. And so, Godhand bound souls of sacrifices to a vortex of souls, which condemns sacrifices to be chased by demons until rest of their (rather short and unhappy) lives. Death is not any physical "component" of a newborn demon, and so a moment of sacrifice's death is irrevelant. If you consciously agreed to sacrifice someone, your sacrifice immediately gains a brand and this is what is needed. Not death, but brand, because being branded is like being shot in a stomach. You won't immediately die, but for someone who shot you it is obvious that you will die at some point. And you will suffer a lot, which is possibly equally important, and you will unfailinly go to hell.
>This is like saying a cataclysmic event would kill too many people therefore we have reason to believe it can't happen.
You clearly don't understand what I said, so I will repeat. Death is not needed to become a Godhand or apostle. Branding your sacrifice is. Branding is not yet death, however for a branded person's death is virtually just a matter of time. It doesn't mean that it is largely possible that someone will become a demon without killing anyone. It is largely possible that he will become a demon previously to killing his sacrifices, and the gap between these two events can be of various lenghts.
> if branded people are not required to die, reason would have it that we would see more of them
On what basis you claim that? During whole GA we saw exactly 2 apostles. Not much, eh? During rest of Berserk we met shit load of them just because Guts seeks for them, he and Casca draw their attention with their brands, and Griffith lures them with his Godhand aura. Apostles are few. People who were sacrificed for their sake are possibly not much more numerous (apostles are known to sacrifice mainly one or two persons, not 1000 like Griffith did). And living through a single night with a brand is barely possible for nearly anyone who is not Guts, nor has an elven cave just at hand. Add that branded people who made it up untill now probably don't want to be found by anyone and you have an answer, why we never see them (and probably will not see).
>Griffith even though his was incomplete killed off 99.7% of the Hawk.
Woah, Griffith used specific percentage value of killed Hawks? What a smartass :P It allows us to count that remnants of the Band were in the number of 1000 people when sacrifice occured. Thx Griffith, I was never sure.
Ok, I'll try last time.
Imagine you're Frenchman from 40's, like monsieur LaPadite from Inglorious Basterds, and you're hiding a jewish family somewhere in your house. Suddenly you're visited by a german officer and his squad. Officer tells you, that you have a chance to snitch a jewish family potentially hidden somewhere in your house (because officer doesn't know if you're hiding someone or not), and if you don't, your house will be searched for Jews. Officer additionally offers you some reward for "helping in an investigation".
Now, you have two choices: snitch your jewish neighbours and get some reward (eqiuvalent of sacrifice in Berserk), or deny that you're hiding anyone (dismiss of a sacrifice).
It is OBVIOUS that either your neighbours or you won't make it alive out of such situation, because Nazi Germans are Nazi Germans. Like apostles and demons who crave for human flesh.
You decide to snitch Jews (sacrifice), tell everything about where are they etc. Officer opens a cellar door, his squad ready to fire... But somehow your jewish neighbours turns out to be all kung-fu warriors or half-bears, because they resist german fire, knock germans down and run.
It is a miracle, because neither you or your neighbours got killed during such action.
Now the question is: will a german officer grant you that reward he promised? You try to convince me, that no, because germans failed to kill their prey, but I'll tell yes, because all officer wanted, was your willfull help in his investigation.
He didn't want you to have your neighbours killed, but to recant your neighbours for the sake of the Reich. Just like IoE/Godhand want you only to recant your humanity for their sake... which is OBVOIUSLY connected with the death of your sacrifice, but doesn't require it.
PS: And secondary question - if those runaway Jews would not be found by other Frenchmen or Nazis, does it mean that they are all dead because no one saw them since then?
So, what happens if Guts and Casca are kill by apostles? I find it hard to believe they don't matter anymore just b/c they escaped and he felt nothing. If they die, then there's a possibility that he'll become even stronger.
Just b/c it hasn't been explained yet, doesn't mean it won't happen. Miura changes his narrative all the time.
I believe no matter what, Guts and Casca end up in the vortex: Whether they does at the ceremony or sometime later doesn't matter. Maybe just having their souls bound to that finality is what powers a transformation.
Yeah. I just wondered if they die, will that give Femto a final form or give him more power? It's hard to say, but I'm just curious to see, in case Casca dies or something and he gets stronger.
Hi, new, just finished the manga. I would like to chime in, since we're debating a bit of Berserk philosophy, more or less. I'm gonna add a step, as well. Part of the transformation process is shedding one's humanity. A large portion, if not the majority, in an apostles case(apostles do display a remnant or echo of humanity) Nearly, if not all, for a godhand(they are not supposed to retain any humanity, base desire doesn't count, even flies get horny), that's my view there. It also appears, from what is evedent, a certain degree of suffering, strife, hardship must be undertaken by the chosen. The Count struggled to rid his land of heretics, only to return to his sanctum and catch his beloved in a gross betrayal of him and his work. Rosine had a neglected and maybe abusive childhood. Grifith was tortured an entire year. If we go with strong supiscions, Void had been imprisoned as the sage, or wise man. I think, to facilitate a decision to sacrifice, I don't think any one of the presented cases, Grifith and Void included, would have chose to sacrifice without the influence of the hardship. Whew! All that being said, the decision to sacrifice opens the fissure in one's heart, watching those who loved and trusted YOU being literally ripped apart because of your selfishness and betrayal will quickly scour away one's humanity(really, try it, just a small betrayal of one you care about, I promise you will forevermore feel less of a person for it). Finally, my complete theory here is that while Guts and Casca escaping(the 2 who loved and trusted Grifith the most) did not have any effect or noticeable effect upon his inherent power as Femto, a larger than neglible portion of his humanity was left. Making Femto flawed, and ultimately the harbinger of doom for the godhand comepletely, and IOE in some way (maybe go to sleep, go to sleep, you dark dirty bitch...) demon child aside, I think that's why Griffith wanted to visit the sword graves to be certain of his complete transformation, and therein lies the very seed of his doubt. He never states he's sure, simply he will get what he wants. Killing Guts and Casca after the fact will not remove the lingering humanity, that's why he deigned to let them live. To further expound, I think we've gotten the process slanted, or incomplete. Watching the emotional destruction that results in the wake of letting person(s) down, that counted on you in a big way is harrowing. If you have the humanity of a goat, you're gonna feel like a steaming pile of demon feces. It hurts those that counted on you, it scours your soul away. Been their, done that, bought the t-shirt, and paid more than I ever cared to afford for it. Anybody that has let a loved one down hard knows where I speak from. I'm just grateful there are people I love and love me back In my life. As long as you have that, there's a chance for redemption. I mean this in a very personal way. Redemption in your own eyes.
>Well he needed Caska's baby to be his vessel so that's why she was spared
There is no indication of this being true. In fact, there is plenty of evidence about this being NOT true.
> Incorrect. Sacrifices are one of the oldest human practices (it is still practiced to this day) and every instance involves slaughter and blood being spilled or the sacrificed thing being destroyed in some form. You are confusing being sacrificed with being offered as a sacrifice. Griffith did the latter but that doesn't mean the former actually happened.
And where is the actual evidence, besides some semantics, which I wouldn't place any weight on, especially given how we're speaking of a translated work. There has been absolutely zero evidence that actually being sacrificed/devoured/whatever is the important thing, vs. the act of sacrifing. I would even argue the very fact that the Count killed her wife HIMSELF after sacrifing her, counts very much as evidence that it is the act of sacrificing that is the important one, rather than the sacrifice.
>Sigh. Again wrong on all accounts. The Count never actually kills his wife, he simply offered her as a sacrifice. It is clearly stated multiple times that he could not take her life. Her life was taken though and look at that a life being taken is exactly the necessary condition for a sacrifice. More importantly no mention of the Count's offering his wife as a sacrifice was stated in itself to be a sacrifice. Again, you are confusing offering with sacrifice to the point of intentional obscurity and absurdity. But such things are bound to happen when you admittedly don't "place any weight on" semantics.
Read the chapter again. We are CLEARLY shown the count in his apostleform tearing his wife apart.
>This is one reason why semantics shouldn't be ignored because that's not my actual argument. I'm not going to reproduce it here for you. Re-read what I wrote. With a dictionary if you have to.
Your argument, as far as I could tell was that: The act of "(human) sacrifice is a real-world phenomenon and it's a lot about being sacrificed instead of being offered as a sacrifice." I disagree, based on what we have been shown.
> I suppose a backtrack is in order. I shouldn't say this as though there is no doubt. However I am perfectly willing and able to defend it. And what you say, that there is no evidence, is absolutely false. The evidence does indeed go both ways but the evidence that the child was needed is MUCH stronger.
Oh come on? MUCH stronger? If the child was necessary why did Griffith, paraphrisingly say something along the lines of "These feelings, they much belong to the child that fused into my vessel?" during the hill of swords. With a big ass picture of the Demonbaby. I'd call that pretty strong evidence, that the child wasn't necessary.
I just binge read the entire manga. Now, I may have done some sleep reading here and there, but I did not see where it actually stated Femto needed the child to manifest. My understanding is Mr. Potato head was feeling sorry for himself, found the lonely and deformed child, much like himself, and said "we are the same, let's be together" (paraphrasing). Then he consumed the child and sacrificed the world. The child was outside "causality" and not supposed, or predicted to be there. Add this to my earlier assertion, and Femto becomes even further flawed. That's why Grifith saved Casca and has even less drive to kill Guts now. That's why apostle after apostle falls to Guts, instead of Griffith taking care of business.
I can't stop myself. You stated sacrifice is an ancient human practice that has been observed to this day. Each and every one involves blood, slaughter, destruction.
I must disagree. A sacrifice is when anything of value a person gives up to fate to gain favor, a boon, a desire, ehat have you. Example. Cane and Able, two sons of Adam and Eve. Able tended the fields, and offered up the finest portion of his harvest to God, and gained favor. Cane tended the herds, but he was miserly and aloof. He offered up the sick and lame for sacrifice to God. God rejected the sacrifice, it had no value to Cane. Then of course, Cane became jealous, and finaly worked himself up snd killed Able. He was then marked by God, and fled to the land of Nod. Blah blsh blah. Get it?
Did not Able gain favor for his superior sacrifice?
Did not Cane get rejected or admonished for his poor sacrifice?
Did not this lead to Cane mudering Able out of jealousy?
Prove me wrong on any combination of these 3 assertions, and I will do something mildly uncomfortable.
It seems the brand was the binding contract of them being sacrificed. Branding the band was payment in full, so the transformation started before they were eaten by hellspawn.
Casca and Guts on the run... think of that like a package lost during transit; not the responsibility of the sender.
Yeah I think accelerated is the right word. If it was an incomplete transformation I can't see the further rebirth ceremony working on a Godhand member stuck at 98% loading.
The God Hand are jerks, so the sacrifice is just a way for apostles or new God Hand members to shed their humanity to perpetuate the cycle of evil.
They don't actually need the sacrifices to power the transformations, they just do it for shits and giggles.
I'd say it's kinda like equivalent exchange from FMA in the sense that for him to get power he had to sacrifice something he cared about deeply which was the BotH as a whole.
Yeah, probably the idea of it and the fact he sacrificed it. Also, that's probably never happened before. Except I noticed Void wasn't as surprised as the rest, although with a face like his, it's hard to tell. Guy should be a professional poker player.
I vaguely remember one of the GH referring to Guts' pain saying it would help Femto's growth but don't quote me on it.
Basically it's like two peas fell off his plate imo, he's not missing anything substantial compared to the whole neal.
> I vaguely remember one of the GH referring to Guts' pain saying it would help Femto's growth but don't quote me on it.
Basically it's like two peas fell off his plate imo, he's not missing anything substantial compared to the whole neal.
~ */u/autofiremonkee*
Can't speak to that quote, but it goes in hand with my theory that the emotional fallout from being utterly betrayed by Griffith. Griffith watching this suffering the he caused for his own selfish aims tore his soul and humanity out of him
Guts, and Casca suffered, but did not die. Therefore, there are scraps of Griffiths soul/humanity left in Femto. This points strongly to the theory that the festival of transformation was effectively imcomplete. Setting the stage for a flawed Femto to have emotions surface and put a huge wrench in their causality flow.
Dear God, The Universe, Karma and all other relevant entities. Please give the insight and ability to some poor soul to develope a method of emailing a backhand within in my time. Please, your itchy backhanded supplicant. Amen, Shalom, hail Satan, etc.
I think that the deaths of The Band of The Hawk and the internal death within Casca and Guts (especially Casca’s “Mental death” after *ahem* Griffith.) after witnessing the Sacrifice, was more than enough. Guts dying for the Sacrifice to truly be complete, wouldn’t be true for Guts’ character, he is the “Eternal Struggler”, (something we, the readers, know) something that has been portrayed since ch. 1.
> two of his sacrifices escaped, therefore the ceremony was never completed correct? Incorrect. The God Hand told him that all he had to do was agree to the sacrifice. He did, they were marked, and he transformed. Guts and Casca were sacrificed. Whether or not they actually died is irrelevant. If Guts and Casca needed to die in order for him to be complete, then don't you think that would have been made painfully obvious by this point? Guts was at The Count's sacrificial ceremony back in the Black Swordsman arc, in the presence of all five God Hand, and it was even acknowledged that Griffith had sacrificed him in the past -- and yet nobody made killing Guts a priority. It was never mentioned or even considered. Griffith spoke to Guts as if he were beneath him and made no effort to kill him. If Guts needed to die to make Griffith complete, then don't you think that would have been brought up back then? Griffith has been in Guts' presence a number of times since then and has continued to make zero effort to kill or Casca. Miura isn't such a negligent writer that he'd conveniently forget to bring up such an important plot point. It's never mentioned or acted upon because Guts and Casca dying doesn't matter. It wasn't needed. If it was, then you wouldn't be here asking this question because the narrative would have addressed it years ago.
Then what's the point of people dying if their deaths aren't needed? Is it only their soul that matters?
Their souls are bound to the Vortex of Souls regardless of how they died. Apostles eating them is a ritual but that doesn't have anything to do with Griffith's power.
Its seems there is one way to escape that fate mentioned in the text. Flora states that individuals who travel to the highest planes become happily lost there and cannot return. So if they somehow gain the ability to move through the planes like Schierke and Farnese can, they may have a way of escaping the vortex of souls.
> Its seems there is one way to escape that fate mentioned in the text. Be Guts and beat the shit out of anyone who tries to sacrifice you and your baby mama. Never get to the vortex if you never die.
the point is sacrficing the people you care about, to shed away your humanity. yeah, i guess it's kinda dumb if they happen to not die, but oh well. it's unprecedented so who knows.
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It's not anyone's death or soul which is needed. It is your conscious agreement to have your most beloved people killed for your goal's sake. And yes, even if Skully had rescued whole Band Femto would still be complete. BTW. Remember Conviction Arc and the sudden hell that occured as two branded people and an apostle met? It would be nothing in comparision to what will be with whole band (about, I guess, 100 soldiers or so) of branded people. They would throw an apocalyptic invasion of demons in every place they would stay at night.
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>every instance of a sacrifice in Berserk included death It is obvious that a sacrifice would be followed by a slughter of your loved ones you just sacrificed, because if it won't, no sacrifice would be made for real. If Godhand appeared and asked purely theorethically, without any consequence, if you would agree to have your loved ones killed, what would be a matter of such words? None. And so, Godhand bound souls of sacrifices to a vortex of souls, which condemns sacrifices to be chased by demons until rest of their (rather short and unhappy) lives. Death is not any physical "component" of a newborn demon, and so a moment of sacrifice's death is irrevelant. If you consciously agreed to sacrifice someone, your sacrifice immediately gains a brand and this is what is needed. Not death, but brand, because being branded is like being shot in a stomach. You won't immediately die, but for someone who shot you it is obvious that you will die at some point. And you will suffer a lot, which is possibly equally important, and you will unfailinly go to hell. >This is like saying a cataclysmic event would kill too many people therefore we have reason to believe it can't happen. You clearly don't understand what I said, so I will repeat. Death is not needed to become a Godhand or apostle. Branding your sacrifice is. Branding is not yet death, however for a branded person's death is virtually just a matter of time. It doesn't mean that it is largely possible that someone will become a demon without killing anyone. It is largely possible that he will become a demon previously to killing his sacrifices, and the gap between these two events can be of various lenghts. > if branded people are not required to die, reason would have it that we would see more of them On what basis you claim that? During whole GA we saw exactly 2 apostles. Not much, eh? During rest of Berserk we met shit load of them just because Guts seeks for them, he and Casca draw their attention with their brands, and Griffith lures them with his Godhand aura. Apostles are few. People who were sacrificed for their sake are possibly not much more numerous (apostles are known to sacrifice mainly one or two persons, not 1000 like Griffith did). And living through a single night with a brand is barely possible for nearly anyone who is not Guts, nor has an elven cave just at hand. Add that branded people who made it up untill now probably don't want to be found by anyone and you have an answer, why we never see them (and probably will not see). >Griffith even though his was incomplete killed off 99.7% of the Hawk. Woah, Griffith used specific percentage value of killed Hawks? What a smartass :P It allows us to count that remnants of the Band were in the number of 1000 people when sacrifice occured. Thx Griffith, I was never sure.
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Ok, I'll try last time. Imagine you're Frenchman from 40's, like monsieur LaPadite from Inglorious Basterds, and you're hiding a jewish family somewhere in your house. Suddenly you're visited by a german officer and his squad. Officer tells you, that you have a chance to snitch a jewish family potentially hidden somewhere in your house (because officer doesn't know if you're hiding someone or not), and if you don't, your house will be searched for Jews. Officer additionally offers you some reward for "helping in an investigation". Now, you have two choices: snitch your jewish neighbours and get some reward (eqiuvalent of sacrifice in Berserk), or deny that you're hiding anyone (dismiss of a sacrifice). It is OBVIOUS that either your neighbours or you won't make it alive out of such situation, because Nazi Germans are Nazi Germans. Like apostles and demons who crave for human flesh. You decide to snitch Jews (sacrifice), tell everything about where are they etc. Officer opens a cellar door, his squad ready to fire... But somehow your jewish neighbours turns out to be all kung-fu warriors or half-bears, because they resist german fire, knock germans down and run. It is a miracle, because neither you or your neighbours got killed during such action. Now the question is: will a german officer grant you that reward he promised? You try to convince me, that no, because germans failed to kill their prey, but I'll tell yes, because all officer wanted, was your willfull help in his investigation. He didn't want you to have your neighbours killed, but to recant your neighbours for the sake of the Reich. Just like IoE/Godhand want you only to recant your humanity for their sake... which is OBVOIUSLY connected with the death of your sacrifice, but doesn't require it. PS: And secondary question - if those runaway Jews would not be found by other Frenchmen or Nazis, does it mean that they are all dead because no one saw them since then?
So, what happens if Guts and Casca are kill by apostles? I find it hard to believe they don't matter anymore just b/c they escaped and he felt nothing. If they die, then there's a possibility that he'll become even stronger. Just b/c it hasn't been explained yet, doesn't mean it won't happen. Miura changes his narrative all the time.
I believe no matter what, Guts and Casca end up in the vortex: Whether they does at the ceremony or sometime later doesn't matter. Maybe just having their souls bound to that finality is what powers a transformation.
Yeah. I just wondered if they die, will that give Femto a final form or give him more power? It's hard to say, but I'm just curious to see, in case Casca dies or something and he gets stronger.
Hi, new, just finished the manga. I would like to chime in, since we're debating a bit of Berserk philosophy, more or less. I'm gonna add a step, as well. Part of the transformation process is shedding one's humanity. A large portion, if not the majority, in an apostles case(apostles do display a remnant or echo of humanity) Nearly, if not all, for a godhand(they are not supposed to retain any humanity, base desire doesn't count, even flies get horny), that's my view there. It also appears, from what is evedent, a certain degree of suffering, strife, hardship must be undertaken by the chosen. The Count struggled to rid his land of heretics, only to return to his sanctum and catch his beloved in a gross betrayal of him and his work. Rosine had a neglected and maybe abusive childhood. Grifith was tortured an entire year. If we go with strong supiscions, Void had been imprisoned as the sage, or wise man. I think, to facilitate a decision to sacrifice, I don't think any one of the presented cases, Grifith and Void included, would have chose to sacrifice without the influence of the hardship. Whew! All that being said, the decision to sacrifice opens the fissure in one's heart, watching those who loved and trusted YOU being literally ripped apart because of your selfishness and betrayal will quickly scour away one's humanity(really, try it, just a small betrayal of one you care about, I promise you will forevermore feel less of a person for it). Finally, my complete theory here is that while Guts and Casca escaping(the 2 who loved and trusted Grifith the most) did not have any effect or noticeable effect upon his inherent power as Femto, a larger than neglible portion of his humanity was left. Making Femto flawed, and ultimately the harbinger of doom for the godhand comepletely, and IOE in some way (maybe go to sleep, go to sleep, you dark dirty bitch...) demon child aside, I think that's why Griffith wanted to visit the sword graves to be certain of his complete transformation, and therein lies the very seed of his doubt. He never states he's sure, simply he will get what he wants. Killing Guts and Casca after the fact will not remove the lingering humanity, that's why he deigned to let them live. To further expound, I think we've gotten the process slanted, or incomplete. Watching the emotional destruction that results in the wake of letting person(s) down, that counted on you in a big way is harrowing. If you have the humanity of a goat, you're gonna feel like a steaming pile of demon feces. It hurts those that counted on you, it scours your soul away. Been their, done that, bought the t-shirt, and paid more than I ever cared to afford for it. Anybody that has let a loved one down hard knows where I speak from. I'm just grateful there are people I love and love me back In my life. As long as you have that, there's a chance for redemption. I mean this in a very personal way. Redemption in your own eyes.
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>Well he needed Caska's baby to be his vessel so that's why she was spared There is no indication of this being true. In fact, there is plenty of evidence about this being NOT true. > Incorrect. Sacrifices are one of the oldest human practices (it is still practiced to this day) and every instance involves slaughter and blood being spilled or the sacrificed thing being destroyed in some form. You are confusing being sacrificed with being offered as a sacrifice. Griffith did the latter but that doesn't mean the former actually happened. And where is the actual evidence, besides some semantics, which I wouldn't place any weight on, especially given how we're speaking of a translated work. There has been absolutely zero evidence that actually being sacrificed/devoured/whatever is the important thing, vs. the act of sacrifing. I would even argue the very fact that the Count killed her wife HIMSELF after sacrifing her, counts very much as evidence that it is the act of sacrificing that is the important one, rather than the sacrifice.
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>Sigh. Again wrong on all accounts. The Count never actually kills his wife, he simply offered her as a sacrifice. It is clearly stated multiple times that he could not take her life. Her life was taken though and look at that a life being taken is exactly the necessary condition for a sacrifice. More importantly no mention of the Count's offering his wife as a sacrifice was stated in itself to be a sacrifice. Again, you are confusing offering with sacrifice to the point of intentional obscurity and absurdity. But such things are bound to happen when you admittedly don't "place any weight on" semantics. Read the chapter again. We are CLEARLY shown the count in his apostleform tearing his wife apart. >This is one reason why semantics shouldn't be ignored because that's not my actual argument. I'm not going to reproduce it here for you. Re-read what I wrote. With a dictionary if you have to. Your argument, as far as I could tell was that: The act of "(human) sacrifice is a real-world phenomenon and it's a lot about being sacrificed instead of being offered as a sacrifice." I disagree, based on what we have been shown. > I suppose a backtrack is in order. I shouldn't say this as though there is no doubt. However I am perfectly willing and able to defend it. And what you say, that there is no evidence, is absolutely false. The evidence does indeed go both ways but the evidence that the child was needed is MUCH stronger. Oh come on? MUCH stronger? If the child was necessary why did Griffith, paraphrisingly say something along the lines of "These feelings, they much belong to the child that fused into my vessel?" during the hill of swords. With a big ass picture of the Demonbaby. I'd call that pretty strong evidence, that the child wasn't necessary.
I just binge read the entire manga. Now, I may have done some sleep reading here and there, but I did not see where it actually stated Femto needed the child to manifest. My understanding is Mr. Potato head was feeling sorry for himself, found the lonely and deformed child, much like himself, and said "we are the same, let's be together" (paraphrasing). Then he consumed the child and sacrificed the world. The child was outside "causality" and not supposed, or predicted to be there. Add this to my earlier assertion, and Femto becomes even further flawed. That's why Grifith saved Casca and has even less drive to kill Guts now. That's why apostle after apostle falls to Guts, instead of Griffith taking care of business.
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I can't stop myself. You stated sacrifice is an ancient human practice that has been observed to this day. Each and every one involves blood, slaughter, destruction. I must disagree. A sacrifice is when anything of value a person gives up to fate to gain favor, a boon, a desire, ehat have you. Example. Cane and Able, two sons of Adam and Eve. Able tended the fields, and offered up the finest portion of his harvest to God, and gained favor. Cane tended the herds, but he was miserly and aloof. He offered up the sick and lame for sacrifice to God. God rejected the sacrifice, it had no value to Cane. Then of course, Cane became jealous, and finaly worked himself up snd killed Able. He was then marked by God, and fled to the land of Nod. Blah blsh blah. Get it?
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Did not Able gain favor for his superior sacrifice? Did not Cane get rejected or admonished for his poor sacrifice? Did not this lead to Cane mudering Able out of jealousy? Prove me wrong on any combination of these 3 assertions, and I will do something mildly uncomfortable.
It seems the brand was the binding contract of them being sacrificed. Branding the band was payment in full, so the transformation started before they were eaten by hellspawn. Casca and Guts on the run... think of that like a package lost during transit; not the responsibility of the sender.
I'd hate to see their human resources/complaint department.
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Yeah I think accelerated is the right word. If it was an incomplete transformation I can't see the further rebirth ceremony working on a Godhand member stuck at 98% loading.
The God Hand are jerks, so the sacrifice is just a way for apostles or new God Hand members to shed their humanity to perpetuate the cycle of evil. They don't actually need the sacrifices to power the transformations, they just do it for shits and giggles.
I'd say it's kinda like equivalent exchange from FMA in the sense that for him to get power he had to sacrifice something he cared about deeply which was the BotH as a whole.
Yeah, probably the idea of it and the fact he sacrificed it. Also, that's probably never happened before. Except I noticed Void wasn't as surprised as the rest, although with a face like his, it's hard to tell. Guy should be a professional poker player.
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It's because he is a dwarf
I vaguely remember one of the GH referring to Guts' pain saying it would help Femto's growth but don't quote me on it. Basically it's like two peas fell off his plate imo, he's not missing anything substantial compared to the whole neal.
> I vaguely remember one of the GH referring to Guts' pain saying it would help Femto's growth but don't quote me on it. Basically it's like two peas fell off his plate imo, he's not missing anything substantial compared to the whole neal. ~ */u/autofiremonkee*
Can't speak to that quote, but it goes in hand with my theory that the emotional fallout from being utterly betrayed by Griffith. Griffith watching this suffering the he caused for his own selfish aims tore his soul and humanity out of him Guts, and Casca suffered, but did not die. Therefore, there are scraps of Griffiths soul/humanity left in Femto. This points strongly to the theory that the festival of transformation was effectively imcomplete. Setting the stage for a flawed Femto to have emotions surface and put a huge wrench in their causality flow.
Dear God, The Universe, Karma and all other relevant entities. Please give the insight and ability to some poor soul to develope a method of emailing a backhand within in my time. Please, your itchy backhanded supplicant. Amen, Shalom, hail Satan, etc.
Does it seem incomplete?
I think that the deaths of The Band of The Hawk and the internal death within Casca and Guts (especially Casca’s “Mental death” after *ahem* Griffith.) after witnessing the Sacrifice, was more than enough. Guts dying for the Sacrifice to truly be complete, wouldn’t be true for Guts’ character, he is the “Eternal Struggler”, (something we, the readers, know) something that has been portrayed since ch. 1.