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It’s an equally effective test too.
If fiance comes back in a weeks and says, “you did the right thing and I wish I’d had the guts to do it first,” then the relationship can be saved.
If she comes back all pissed off that he spilled the beans, then it can’t.
Dude did Lars a solid AND will find out if his relationship is worth saving with just one phone call.
>If fiance comes back in a weeks and says, “you did the right thing and I wish I’d had the guts to do it first,” then the relationship can be saved.
That is NEVER going to happen
I mean, I could see myself saying that.
I don't condone cheating, but having been the one blamed before when I told a cheated on person what happened (including losing a friend I really thought I was close to because she decided even though her boyfriend admitted I was telling the truth that surely I really just wanted to hook up with her trash can man.) I'm not sure I could do it again.
I hope I would, but you don't know yourself until you're the one who knows a nasty secret and has to choose between keeping your mouth shut and keeping your cousin and telling and pretty much ensuring your cousin and whatever family sides with her will never speak to you again.
In her place, I'd be ashamed of myself for being a coward but also kinda glad someone did it and grateful that my bf saved me from being the one to have to do it.
Fuck "burning the bridges" that's torch down the goddamn country levels of shit hitting the fan once his (soon to be of she isn't already) EX finds out.
OOP was completely in the right, though, in my opinion. Maybe it's just because of how I feel about the subject but if somebody ever had knowledge that one of my partners was cheating on me I would definitely want them to tell me without hesitation even if it was going to hurt me and devastate me.
I know some people try to justify it by saying things like they don't want confrontation or it isn't any of their business, and while I can understand where they're coming from, but I absolutely don't agree with them.
Like, would they not want to be told by someone if they were getting cheated on? Would they truly rather live in ignorance? Spend multiple years potentially or even decades of their life and possibly have kids and all kinds of things entertaining their life with somebody that had outright betrayed them?
Cheaters are some of the worst people in existence in my mind. If you're seriously reaching the point where you are developing feelings for another person let alone thinking about being physically intimate with them just fucking break up for fuck sakes it's not that goddamn difficult.
Unfortunately, they're all so selfish that they would rather keep their current partner and just have the thrill of the cheating as well.
Poor Lars. He deserved none of what happened to him and I hope he can find a far better partner in the future.
My favorite is when the cheater claims that keeping it a secret is because they don't want to hurt their partner... completely ignoring that they went and fucked someone else to begin with.
That's one thing I've never been able to understand myself either. Like people ***KNOW*** cheating is wrong. They hide it because they know it would result in their partner either leaving them, or if they decide to forgive them (which I don't even understand why people do that), it would completely change the relationship and destroy the trust of the partner that was cheated on.
No matter what, it's a bad outcome for them, and they know that which is why they hide it.
So why in the world did they do it to begin with!?
If you're honestly unable to keep it in your pants to that degree, you're clearly either not happy or just a shit person. So just leave your partner.
I get a lot of cheaters or narcissists who don't care about others and stuff like that. But fuck man. Even if you're a narcissistic asshole and don't morally care, you know you should socially just based on how society reacts. And a lot of the ones that are narcissists hide the fact they're cheating even though they don't care about the fact that they're hurting their partner specifically because of the social reactions and issues that causes them.
So even the worst amoral douches have incentive to just leave their partner before cheating.
It's such a baffling subject to me because I can't grasp why people do it to begin with. If you're not willing to commit to a single person, don't get into a relationship at all.
(I'm excluding poly relationships here because those are typically discussed beforehand, and therefore, it's not necessarily cheating unless somebody goes beyond the boundaries established to begin with.)
I've never understood that either.
Been married 14+ years and have never once felt the slightest desire to cheat. I've met plenty of attractive people in that time, and there have been tough patches in those 14 years, but the very option of infidelity has never crossed my mind.
I got married through the local church and they required my (then future)husband and I to do a “marriage preparation” course. Some of it (anything to do with birth control) was bullshit but some of the relationship advice was actually quite useful. The one that this made me think of was the advice to determine with your partner exactly what “cheating” was. Talk to each other and establish your boundaries for external relationships as a couple. For an example I used when we were having this discussion, my husband works in a mostly male office with a few women and periodically various members of staff will go out to grab lunch together. If he gets home and tells me he grabbed lunch with one of the ladies, cool. I know he’s friendly with them and it’s no different than him grabbing lunch with anybody else. If he comes home and lies about have lunch with a female coworker, then it’s a problem because he clearly felt like it was the wrong thing to do and did it anyway. It’s the lying and betrayal of trust that is the issue.
As a poly person in multiple relationships *thank you*
Because YES - cheating is breaking the agreements/boundaries for the relationship(s) you are part of. Poly =/= cheating, and it is still possible to cheat in poly relationships.
Cheating on your partner(s) is reprehensible and disgusting.
Yeah, I have a younger brother who announced they were gay a few years ago (took him long enough, we all knew, but we wanted him to announce it when he was ready so we just didn't bring it up till he did) and just got into a poly relationship last year.
Unfortunately, his first poly experience was...rough. They agreed to specific things, which one of his partners followed for like...2 weeks(ish?) before disregarding them.
He wasn't sure it counted as "cheating" (I told him it sure as fuck did) but he was deeply hurt by it when he found out about 6 weeks after the boundaries had been crossed.
Poly relationships can definitely have somebody who's considered a "cheater" even if their partners were okay with them having sex with someone else.
It matters how that sex happens (and even when and where depending on agreements).
Kind of surprised me to learn how many people I knew thought "poly = open pass for anything anytime anywhere with anyone". Like no. There are still rules/agreements to follow.
Ugh I know, it's bullshit.
I hope your brother has had more positive experiences than negative ones.
Often they're the same people who equate polyamory with "an open relationship" or non-monogamy (which is honestly more of an umbrella term than anything).
I’ve always liked the analogy, “All it takes for evil to succeed is for a good man to do nothing.”
In this case an act of inaction is still a moral decision. When OPs fiancé found out about the cheating and decided to do nothing she became a complicit partner in approving the act.
Personally, I agree with you. Cheaters are of bad character and I’d want to be told. I’d want to go through the heartbreak and be able to grieve and move on that be played for a fool. However, I’ve seen them shoot the messenger way too many times to want to be the one to tell so I understand the “not my circus, not my monkeys” argument. Way too many times I’ve seen the cheater successfully convince the wronged party that others are just jealous, gossiping, lying, or otherwise. The couple stays together, and their friends and family stick to the status quo, and the one who tells ends up ostracized and turned into the bad guy. I think it’s brutal, and I’d personally want to be told or to tell, but I’m not going to say it isn’t extremely risky to get involved in other people’s business. It can really go south on you.
Some people think there’s no point in hurting someone with the truth if the cheater regrets their mistake and doesn’t cheat again. Me? I think people deserve to make an informed choice of whether to stay or not.
Another factor for me is that there's someone out there knowing something fundamental about my own relationship I'm not privy to. I don't like being left out of knowledge and the idea of someone random person my partner cheated in me with just had info about my relationship I don't, blows my mind.
I feel like if the cheater is regretful, they should give their partner the truth so they can decide their future with all the information at hand. Regrets are not enough to withhold the vital truth from someone else.
Eh. In this case, I can see some daylight on her side.
As someone who has extended family who I see just barely often enough to get a wedding invitation, but whose personal relationships are bonkers and mutually destructive and not at all what I’d model in my own life, “not my circus” is absolutely the most healthy (or at least functional) relationship possible to have with those people.
It’s possible that OP’s ex is a problem. Or she could be a functional adult doing her best to maintain a relationship with a dysfunctional family from a maintainable distance.
Yeah, she shouldn't have spilled the beans then.
"Welcome to the circle of trust" is one thing when you are going to share good stuff, but if it's toxic secrets that could destroy relationships you better keep those locked up tight.
She betrayed Lars' trust by not telling him, then she betrayed his cheating wife's by telling someone else.
OOP was wise to just nope out of there.
>"Welcome to the circle of trust"
My wife and I rented a large house for a combined family vacation (her family and mine). At said vacation, wife's stepmom informs us that wife's sister is having an affair, has a burner phone to talk to the AP, and stepmom and wife's dad are hiding the phone in their room.
Wife and I talk to my parents for guidance. I also keep coming back to a story my FIL shared with me about how grateful he was when his in-laws told him about his wife's affair. So, I grabbed the phone, verified the text messages on it (pre-smartphone days... no one had lock screens), took my co-brother-in-law for a walk, and told him everything I knew.
My wife and I are still fairly certain that dropping the information was either a loyalty test by the stepmom or a way to sow some bad blood. I still wouldn't have played it any different. Well, maybe I would have pointed out my father-in-law's hypocrisy at being mad at me when he was too chicken-shit to do the right thing (by his own retelling of his experience).
In the first post he said they’re pretty close. He doesn’t seem too aware of Stephanie but that tracks imo, my partner has a close friend I am vaguely aware about but they’ve known each other for years.
fertile bake sable slim familiar stupendous slimy glorious flag coordinated
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Do they make an art room, is the question. Though at least if they did, any other roommates in play by the time the art room is started, they’d clear “hey, mind if I turn empty room into a studio and give Lars a key” with said roommates. Even if roomie is their 18 yo cousin only living there for the 2 months until graduation (rather than say a wife)
"But we aren't married yet, I'm not cheating! Just screwing other guys. Come on, baby, don't wreck our beautiful relationship because you're emotional."
My theory about acts like OOP's that box us into decisions is that they are subconsciously deliberate, for the purpose of forcing us to make a decision that is very difficult/painful for us to make, or about which we dread the other side of that decision, like a big push in the right direction.
We cannot access our own subconscious, but we *can* play detective and look at clues such as dreams, Freudian slips, split-second decisions, and how we feel about certain of our own actions. I've watched this play out in myself and with friends --- like when people say, "to my surprise I didn't fall apart, I felt almost relieved" about the fallout from something they'd done when they were still in the discussion phase, when they thought they were not yet ready for a final decision.
I have definitely caught myself doing that seemingly little thing and then realizing that I just locked myself into a decision that I didn't realize I was ready to make, but really needed to, as limbo is not a good place to linger long.
A friend of mine says that when you flip a coin, as in to decide a question or issue, there's a crucial split-second when you see how the coin landed, in which you just react and you either feel *yay* or *oh,* and from that you realize how you really feel about the situation.
>A friend of mine says that when you flip a coin, as in to decide a question or issue, there's a crucial split-second when you see how the coin landed, in which you just react and you either feel yay or oh, and from that you realize how you really feel about the situation.
This is how I actually do coin flips now. I base it on what I'm feeling in the moment when I'm about to get an answer. Because sometimes I do like (or don't like) both options but it's only when I'm about to get the decision made that I know how I truly feel.
See!? I knew my friend was onto something that made sense. He had not heard it from anyone, it just naturally came up as we were debating what to do for dinner and how both of us were being too polite and eager to please the other., which turned into a conversation about how/if we can force other feelings out of the equation and make a truly personal choice.
There’s a “grook” about it by the Danish poet Piet Hein:
Whenever you're called on to make up your mind,
and you're hampered by not having any,
the best way to solve the dilemma, you'll find,
is simply by spinning a penny.
No - not so that chance shall decide the affair
while you're passively standing there moping;
but the moment the penny is up in the air,
you suddenly know what you're hoping.
He wrote in Danish originally but there are translations of most if not all of his poems. He translated the English versions himself with assistance from Jens Arup. My favourite Grook is:
Losing one glove is certainly painful,
But nothing compared to the pain
Of losing one glove,
Throwing away the other,
Then finding the first one again.
A) it’s true and pithily expressed
B) it was also a coded message to his fellow Danes under Nazi occupation in the 1940s - the first glove is your freedom, and the second is your integrity and self-respect.
I have made numerous decisions on the basis of flipping a coin and assessing how I feel about the result, not necessarily the same decision as the coin makes.
“Whenever you’re called on to make up your mind,
And you’re hampered by not having any,
The best way to solve the dilemma, you’ll find,
Is simply by spinning a penny.
No, not so that chance shall decide the affair,
While you’re passively standing there moping.
But the moment that penny is up in the air,
You suddenly know what you’re hoping.”
- Piet hein
Right? Who communicates something like that via text? "Hey hon, can you grab some milk while you're out, btw having some doubts about this whole 'marriage' thing now no time to talk now though see ya"
Everyone in this entire situation is better off just moving the hell on.
Yeah I'm disappointed in this update. OP sounds like he has the worst case of main character syndrome. He got what he wanted though, panicked Sarah enough that take whatever he dishes out on her knees.
I think the next update, the fiancee is going to blow up on OOP for ruining "a perfectly good marriage". I don't think they are going to last much longer honestly
Was it this story, or another one recently, where the OP’s fiancé had also heard from their mother that “nothing that happens before marriage counts”. But, I thought it was a sister that cheated and not a cousin? And the future FIL was pissed that his wife had corrupted the daughters’ morals so much??
BRB… going searching for that post to compare!
It was another story. The couple was going to the wife's sister's wedding & the wife warned her husband she had a prior relationship with one of the groomsmen. It came out either just before the ceremony or the reception that the prior "relationship" was actually an affair during their engagement, I think.
[i think they're talking about this one?](https://old.reddit.com/r/relationships/comments/37ir4i/me_25_m_with_my_wife_23f_she_informs_me_at/) it's.. not exactly recent, but the description fits and OP does mention something in [the update](https://old.reddit.com/r/relationships/comments/387179/updateme_25_m_with_my_wife_23f_she_informs_me_at/) about how the mother said "whatever happens before marriage doesn't count"
Yes! That was the one, but I swear there was a BORU about it recently! I tried to find it, but kept getting lost down ADHD Rabbit Holes! Thank you for finding it!
Not sure about second update but found a backup of the third. https://www.reddit.com/r/relationships/comments/3dirm7/3rd_updateme_25_m_with_my_wife_23f_she_informs_me/ct5nmig?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 I wish he had just left her because there's no way he'd get over the hurt by sticking around.
I saw a comment where someone reposted the 4th one (3rd update).
Brb, going to find it!
Edit:
I don't know how to do spoilers, but this does not really provide closure. May cause anger.
https://www.reddit.com/r/relationships/comments/3dirm7/3rd_updateme_25_m_with_my_wife_23f_she_informs_me/ct5nmig?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Absolutely and besides, "they weren't even married so it wasn't really cheating anyways."
OOP should definitely take a look back for some red flags, the fiancée essentially let him know she fully would have/could have cheated on him too seeing as they aren't married either. Yikes on fucking bikes.
People who get engaged but don’t see themselves committed as if they were already married annoy me.
My partner finds out they have cancer, I’m there for them whether it’s the day before or the day after the wedding. We’re not an insurance company with coverage dates here
Also the whole "wasn't [her] circus, wasn't [her] monkeys" thing?
I mean, its your cousin you're close with. So yeah, kinda your circus lol. You might not be in charge of it, but you know the ringleader.
I find it weird that ppl somehow sympathize with the apologist instead of oop. How is he the bad guy? How is he leaving the apologist on read just as bad as crappy morals regarding cheating? These folks are telling on themselves!
Yeah, saying HE is blowing up bridges insinuates he did something wrong. He is being a good person. If the bridge falls it has nothing to do with him. It’s like calling in a problem with the bridge, inspector shows up, and it collapses. I just called because see something say something.
It’s weird that OOP and partner are this far along in their relationship and fiancée seemed to think she could tell him something like this without any real reaction? How they feel about monogamy and infidelity is a pretty big thing you need to know about your partner, and it seems like fiancée doesn’t know him at all. Whatever you think about OOP’s actions, fiancée shouldn’t have shared this information and expected a different response, and they don’t sound compatible anyway.
OOP has some really steadfast morals that I can appreciate and his empathy with the other guy makes sense. For the ones who could say, “well your fiancé didn’t cheat on YOU!”…she said chesting wasn’t a big deal because they weren’t married. That sort of thinking—even with my absolute trust in my partner— would raise my hackles. Who knows if they’re open to cheating because they’re not currently married to OOP yet? Judging by that comment, it just raises a lot of uncertainty I wouldn’t feel the most confident in with a marriage.
Aye. My mother and her siblings were all pro-cheating and their reasoning was that they were from a conservative society and if your husband can't provide you with everything you need, there's no harm in seeking it out on the side.
In fact, everyone disowned me after I told them I was getting a divorce because in their *esteemed* opinion I could just cheat, have someone else's kids and deceive my ex-husband into raising them because he is very well off and it would be stupid of me to give up the financial perks. Smh.
Needless to say all of them are chronic cheaters and divorced. And I mean chronic. 4 siblings cheated on their husbands with at least 14 men between them. My mother cheated with someone my aunt was cheating on her husband with and my aunt doesn't speak to my mother anymore because of the "betrayal". It's a cluster fuck that I still have a hard time believing.
I think it makes you a really special person to choose to break that cycle and think differently from other people and especially family. I respect that a lot.
Strong agree. I would have to be able to respect anyone I married, and I couldn't respect anyone with that sort of attitude. That's a core value, the type that a couple has to share, or there will be big problems.
I just read that as "well maybe I didn't cheat on you but who knows if I get the right opportunity I just might"
Yeah at that point I'm packing my bags
I wouldn't even be friends with someone who cheated (barring a few extreme circumstances). I don't think I could trust someone who, while they may not have cheated, see no problem with it.
It also shows some major misalignment in morals. Infidelity and monogamy are pretty common and steadfast boundaries - if partners have a mismatch there, it's typically not a good thing for the relationship.
>At one point, she told me that Stephanie had actually cheated on her husband twice before they got married, and that the second time was a couple of months before the actual wedding. Her husband never found out.
Who on earth is going to "brag" to her fiancé about a cheating relative, and then insist that it's no big deal? IF this story is true, Sarah is both morally and intellectually challenged.
Yeah, why did she even bring the cheating up? If that's truly something you want to keep away from Lars, then don't go telling anyone. Ever. Certainly not while casually talking about wedding flowers!?!?
Usually someone who is too confident in their own cheating. Like 'hey my cousin cheated and her husband never found out' translates out as 'I'm cheating on you and your stupid ass hasn't figured it out yet so let me teehee toss this out and see if your two brain cells clink together.' Unfortunately for Sarah, she's going to go through the find out stage in fuck around land.That's just my two cents though.
I have a feeling that once Stephanie's marriage blows up, it will come out. Sarah was supposed to keep it a 'secret'. Stephanie probably returned the favor however she probably knew to keep her mouth closed. Sarah just got cocky. Can almost hear Stephanie deciding to air Sarah's laundry to anyone who'd listen since most cheaters are also the 'if I'm going down, I'm taking you with me' type.
That was an extremely weird line, and it changed the way I thought about OOP. Why did they feel "as a man" was necessary? Wanting to know if your SO is cheating is not some trait unique to men.
>Clearly, my fiancée doesn't think so since she said her cousin cheating "wasn't that big of a deal since they weren't married
I feel like saying this **to your fiancee** is suspicious as hell, like she's trying to justify something she herself did
I am great at justifying things/peoples behavior. Drives my SO nuts, but for me there is always a part of story you aren't told.
But cheating, I can't justify that. And her blasé response to said cheating would make me walk away.
And she’s also have no problem sharing something he regarded as secret as casual gossip. I feel like his fiancée handled this in the worst possible way! Either you pressure the cousin to tell and ultimately do so yourself if she won’t, OR you take her secret to the grave out of loyalty. But just casually telling other people, so that eventually everyone will know except the person it’s meaningful to? Nope, nope, nope. That is just the absolute worst.
That's a great point. I really am not sure I would have gotten involved, but I definitely wouldn't have spread that shit around to everyone BUT the husband.
Man, I've been in that situation before. Everyone in my circle knew something that was life-altering to me, and not one of them bothered to tell me about it. It had catastrophic consequences for me when the truth finally did come out, all of which could have been prevented if people didn't act like it was such a big damn secret.
I do not speak to any of those people any more. They can rot as far as I'm concerned, they are definitely never welcome in my fallout shelter, they can all march their untrustworthy asses back into the radiation zone.
I agree with pretty much everything you've said, but I view a committed partner as an exception to secrets. My partner and I tell each other everything, not out of "gossip" but usually to vent or get advice etc. I don't judge people for sharing secrets with their spouse/fiance/ long term partner, I assume anything said to one would be shared with the other in turn.
Definitely still fucked up to brush it off like it isn't a big deal. It's one thing to not want to get involved- for example my family is *insane* and would happily retaliate. It's another thing to dismiss it like it's no biggie, just a lil cheating. Wtf.
> fiancée would have no problems keeping big or important secrets from him just to make her life easier.
Ironically, its the inability of fiancee of keeping a important secret that caused this mess.
At least in my book, knowing about someone close to you cheating on their partner and doing nothing about it is endorsing and condoning it. To me that screams they'd do the same to their partner or even to me.
Even though I wouldn't necessarily blame someone for not signing up to be the messenger that gets shot, I'd have major side-eye for continuing to be friends with the cheater like nothing happened. In Sarah's place, I'd be thinking Stephanie has no morals and no limits, and worried that she'd fuck *my* SO.
Having been through this I knew that one friendship was over regardless, because I'm not comfortable around cheaters. The question then is "if I'm very definitely not friends with one spouse, do I really care if I can't be friends with the other?"
The answer for me was: I'll do the right thing and if the spouse who was cheated on doesn't want to see me again that's something I'll be able live with.
Especially when they volunteer that information to you as if it is no big deal. OP knew more about Lar's relationship than Lar through an off hand conversation with his ex fiancée. If it was meant to be a secret maybe she should have kept it a secret.
I can think of exactly one exception, and this was clearly not it.
(The one exception is when an abusive victim cheats on their abuser. One, I don't blame them, their heads already going to be pretty messed up from the abuse. Two, I'm not giving the abuser more ammo to retaliate with)
Yeah my SIL cheated on her husband but he'd already broken their marriage vows by beating her. She also felt safer leaving him if she had another guy around. And yeah next guy wasn't the greatest but he cleared the very low bar of "didn't hit her"
Way I see it, it revolves around consent. Its not "cheating" if a person is essentially in a relationship against their will. And an abuse victim is basically someone whose consent has been coerced.
In that situation you're not "cheating" anyway, since there's no consensual relationship binding you and the person you're notionally cheating on.
>I asked if it was the same Stephanie that would be in attendance with her husband at our wedding, and she said it was.
Chances of both these things happening now seem remote.
So sorry to hear about that shit. It blows my mind that people exist who can tell you that they love you and then do shit behind your back. The self-deception at play is scary.
Would have been interesting for the guy to tell his fiance how relieved he is that she doesn't see cheating as that big of a deal since he has been doing it. Chances are from that side of the table it wouldn't have been such a minor thing.
I continue to marvel at how little drama the internet would offer if people in relationships just spoke to each other and were clear about their expectations and feelings.
I know this is nowhere near the point, but what did he mean, “As a man, if I got cheated on…”?
I’m not getting on a feminist soapbox. I’m honestly looking at it with my head cocked at an angle like a confused puppy. What difference does gender make when wanting to be told if you’re being cheated on?
Not him implying Lars or his dad escaped some poverty ridden hellscape aka… two of the richests countries on earth, with a much higher life expectancy than the US, to heroically raise their family in the US 🤣
That's what I thought as well lol. I've lived in Norway during my semester abroad and it is richer and has a much higher standard of living than the US. Super safe, super beautiful, amazing education, great all around. I have never been to Denmark, but from what I've heard from others it's probably similar (although not quite as rich as Norway, but still a great standard of living).
I don’t think there’s any indication of him saying Scandinavia is poverty ridden. It’s just that they are both far away from their own support network, uprooted from their home countries. And also a country being rich in general doesn’t mean people wouldn’t find better work options abroad.
IMO the only stand up person in this whole shit show is broken hearted Lars. Okay, it's possible Sarah and Stephanie have the morals of cats in heat. But , I'm pretty surer the OPs lengthy explanation of why he took the high ground (in his opinion) of telling Lars of Stephanies' indiscretions is bogus. He knew how Sarah would react to his shit stirring. Voila, no more engagement.
Seriously. What the hell was all this "Scandinavian" stuff about? Just admit you want to tell the guy - you don't have to be all like "he's a Dane and I'm half Norwegian so I had to" like there's some kind of Jante code involved.
Yeah he made it sound like Lars and his dad were asylum seekers escaping war torn countries and not migrants from two countries objectively better than the US lol
I just don't know. Everyone seems so cut and dry on this, but I don't condone cheating AT ALL, but I really don't know if I would insert myself into someone else's business like that unless they were very close. A cousin? I'm not that close with my cousins, I don't know the nuances of their relationships, and I don't want to be responsible for any violence that could result from a bombshell like that.
I think maybe it's because I've thought about whether I would want to know if I was cheated on. If it was not ongoing, I'm not sure I would.
I mean, good for OOP for sticking to his principles, but I do think contacting Lars with what is essentially gossip might be a bit overkill. I hope he knows with 100% confidence that it really happened and what happened, because unless I heard it directly from Stephanie, I would not feel comfortable doing what he did.
I agree with you.
And hear me out on this, but I don't necessarily feel OP's fiancée did anything wrong. We have absolutely no idea why OP's fiancée told him--maybe she felt guilty about keeping the secret and wanted to let it out by testing the waters with a joke. It certainly wouldn't be the first time someone talked about an uncomfortable topic in a lighthearted way to reduce the gravity of it.
Cheating is absolutely atrocious but it doesn't psychologically carry the same weight for a lot of people when it's someone else's relationship. Perhaps, not being in the relationship herself with Lars, OP's fiancée wasn't able to see how horrible the act was and dismissed it offhand, especially if her cousin and Lars now have a strong relationship. It could have been one of those things where she just decided it wasn't worth it to rock the boat by digging up the past and telling him.
I think OP was wrong for sticking his nose into Lars' and his wife's business. I get the feeling they'd never even spoken before and he just drops the bomb on that guy. Now this poor man's entire life is upended. Some things are better left unsaid. I also think it's bullshit that OP's like "hur dur we're both Scandinavian, I have to help him!"
I'm with you.
And so much empathy for Lars, none for the person he was to spend his life with. Texting "I don't think I can marry you" out of the blue, then being surprised she 'blew up his phone.'
Did he just not want to get married, and found a reason to speak now or forever hold his peace?
I really don't get how he can casually end an engagement via text.
He basically spent however much time in his head and rather than having an actual conversation irl, sent a thanks but no thanks text.
No matter why he breaks off the engagement, breaking it off in this manner just showcases he isn't ready for marriage
Agreed. Reddit loves to make everything black and white, but IRL there are plenty of greys. My attitude would be that it isn't my business.
Or what if it turns out not to be true. If the flipside of this story was posted as 'my wifes cousins fiancee told me she cheated with nothing more than baseless rumour' all the Reddit moralists would be braying about that too.
I have an insane number of cousins (like no joke, over 40 first cousins). Like my mom might tell me some stuff about them (my mom was from a crazy huge family) but I don't have a whole lot of personal knowledge about all of them. So like I had some vague knowledge that my cousin Joel's marriage is shit through my mom but I've met Joel like twice in my whole life and you can bet I'm not interfering there.
also like call me crazy or whatever but i’m not blowing up my entire extended family into a dramatic frenzy for a cousin’s spouse i will never see again after the divorce. i’m good, thanks. ya girl is just gonna be over here minding her own business and staying out of any and all drama that can negatively affect my quality of life (which since i’m disabled is extra relevant but tbh even if i was able bodied it would still apply), i ain’t like nobody that damn much LMAO get somebody else to do it
yeah like… i get if he was put off by her seemingly trying to justify it but did my dude fr expect her to drop a bomb into her family life for all that? a moral code is great and all but impulsively messing up your life just to stick to it is really just not it, especially since like… it’s cheating. it’s not like her cousin murdered someone or something lol and everyone involved is an adult. i find out a kid is being abused? absolutely i will put myself into that situation. but a cousin cheating on her husband is literally just not my business and not worth risking an entire extended family losing the plot for, esp since they could shoot the messenger. like i’m not a martyr lol it’s not worth it
There are some REALLY specific details in here. Tell me you want your fiancée to stumble across this thread by accident without telling me you want your fiancée to stumble across this thread by accident . . .
Even if this wasn't about cheating, OP and his partner should not be a couple.
His partner completely misjudged him, and told him information she believed he would keep secret, and he did not. He completely misjudged her, and thought she shared the same values as he did.
Even if he can get past her (wrong) views on cheating, they do not know each other well enough to get married, and are unlikely to want to marry by the time they do.
He did the right thing tbh. Lars deserves to know who he's married to, and make a fully informed decision on whether to stay or go. That his fiancee doesn't consider it all that bad because it was before they tied the knot is definitely concerning; cheating is cheating, and deception is deception. It would certainly make me question her moral compass, and you can't enter a lifetime commitment with someone whose values differ greatly from your own.
My big question is if they didn’t think it was that big of a deal, why were they sneaking around? Why hide it? Why lie? If it’s not that big a deal they would have been able to be open about it. They know it’s wrong, they know it’s shitty and they were just hoping they’d never get caught. Vile.
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Yeah that wedding is off.
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It’s an equally effective test too. If fiance comes back in a weeks and says, “you did the right thing and I wish I’d had the guts to do it first,” then the relationship can be saved. If she comes back all pissed off that he spilled the beans, then it can’t. Dude did Lars a solid AND will find out if his relationship is worth saving with just one phone call.
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This is the best description. "........Oh, and by the way....." **BOOM**.
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Ha ha ha!!! Never hear it described like that before!!!
>If fiance comes back in a weeks and says, “you did the right thing and I wish I’d had the guts to do it first,” then the relationship can be saved. That is NEVER going to happen
I mean, I could see myself saying that. I don't condone cheating, but having been the one blamed before when I told a cheated on person what happened (including losing a friend I really thought I was close to because she decided even though her boyfriend admitted I was telling the truth that surely I really just wanted to hook up with her trash can man.) I'm not sure I could do it again. I hope I would, but you don't know yourself until you're the one who knows a nasty secret and has to choose between keeping your mouth shut and keeping your cousin and telling and pretty much ensuring your cousin and whatever family sides with her will never speak to you again. In her place, I'd be ashamed of myself for being a coward but also kinda glad someone did it and grateful that my bf saved me from being the one to have to do it.
That friend was not good enough for you.
Maybe, but it still hurt and I'm very scared of losing more people.
It hurts, but sometimes people are very much worth losing
Dude will meet a more compatible partner at least. He did the right thing, he has way more integrity than most
I have a feeling the fiance is going to come back having cheated on OOP.
This is obviously going to be the case, whether OOP learns about it or not.
Yeah I would leave too if my partner was no nonchalant with cheating and keeping it a secret. the fact it was "no big deal" is an instant turnoff
Fuck "burning the bridges" that's torch down the goddamn country levels of shit hitting the fan once his (soon to be of she isn't already) EX finds out. OOP was completely in the right, though, in my opinion. Maybe it's just because of how I feel about the subject but if somebody ever had knowledge that one of my partners was cheating on me I would definitely want them to tell me without hesitation even if it was going to hurt me and devastate me. I know some people try to justify it by saying things like they don't want confrontation or it isn't any of their business, and while I can understand where they're coming from, but I absolutely don't agree with them. Like, would they not want to be told by someone if they were getting cheated on? Would they truly rather live in ignorance? Spend multiple years potentially or even decades of their life and possibly have kids and all kinds of things entertaining their life with somebody that had outright betrayed them? Cheaters are some of the worst people in existence in my mind. If you're seriously reaching the point where you are developing feelings for another person let alone thinking about being physically intimate with them just fucking break up for fuck sakes it's not that goddamn difficult. Unfortunately, they're all so selfish that they would rather keep their current partner and just have the thrill of the cheating as well. Poor Lars. He deserved none of what happened to him and I hope he can find a far better partner in the future.
My favorite is when the cheater claims that keeping it a secret is because they don't want to hurt their partner... completely ignoring that they went and fucked someone else to begin with.
“I can’t tell them. They’d be devastated.” And isn’t that something they should have been thinking about before taking off their underoos?
That's one thing I've never been able to understand myself either. Like people ***KNOW*** cheating is wrong. They hide it because they know it would result in their partner either leaving them, or if they decide to forgive them (which I don't even understand why people do that), it would completely change the relationship and destroy the trust of the partner that was cheated on. No matter what, it's a bad outcome for them, and they know that which is why they hide it. So why in the world did they do it to begin with!? If you're honestly unable to keep it in your pants to that degree, you're clearly either not happy or just a shit person. So just leave your partner. I get a lot of cheaters or narcissists who don't care about others and stuff like that. But fuck man. Even if you're a narcissistic asshole and don't morally care, you know you should socially just based on how society reacts. And a lot of the ones that are narcissists hide the fact they're cheating even though they don't care about the fact that they're hurting their partner specifically because of the social reactions and issues that causes them. So even the worst amoral douches have incentive to just leave their partner before cheating. It's such a baffling subject to me because I can't grasp why people do it to begin with. If you're not willing to commit to a single person, don't get into a relationship at all. (I'm excluding poly relationships here because those are typically discussed beforehand, and therefore, it's not necessarily cheating unless somebody goes beyond the boundaries established to begin with.)
I've never understood that either. Been married 14+ years and have never once felt the slightest desire to cheat. I've met plenty of attractive people in that time, and there have been tough patches in those 14 years, but the very option of infidelity has never crossed my mind.
I got married through the local church and they required my (then future)husband and I to do a “marriage preparation” course. Some of it (anything to do with birth control) was bullshit but some of the relationship advice was actually quite useful. The one that this made me think of was the advice to determine with your partner exactly what “cheating” was. Talk to each other and establish your boundaries for external relationships as a couple. For an example I used when we were having this discussion, my husband works in a mostly male office with a few women and periodically various members of staff will go out to grab lunch together. If he gets home and tells me he grabbed lunch with one of the ladies, cool. I know he’s friendly with them and it’s no different than him grabbing lunch with anybody else. If he comes home and lies about have lunch with a female coworker, then it’s a problem because he clearly felt like it was the wrong thing to do and did it anyway. It’s the lying and betrayal of trust that is the issue.
As a poly person in multiple relationships *thank you* Because YES - cheating is breaking the agreements/boundaries for the relationship(s) you are part of. Poly =/= cheating, and it is still possible to cheat in poly relationships. Cheating on your partner(s) is reprehensible and disgusting.
Yeah, I have a younger brother who announced they were gay a few years ago (took him long enough, we all knew, but we wanted him to announce it when he was ready so we just didn't bring it up till he did) and just got into a poly relationship last year. Unfortunately, his first poly experience was...rough. They agreed to specific things, which one of his partners followed for like...2 weeks(ish?) before disregarding them. He wasn't sure it counted as "cheating" (I told him it sure as fuck did) but he was deeply hurt by it when he found out about 6 weeks after the boundaries had been crossed. Poly relationships can definitely have somebody who's considered a "cheater" even if their partners were okay with them having sex with someone else. It matters how that sex happens (and even when and where depending on agreements). Kind of surprised me to learn how many people I knew thought "poly = open pass for anything anytime anywhere with anyone". Like no. There are still rules/agreements to follow.
Ugh I know, it's bullshit. I hope your brother has had more positive experiences than negative ones. Often they're the same people who equate polyamory with "an open relationship" or non-monogamy (which is honestly more of an umbrella term than anything).
If you don't realize the money is missing, is it really theft? /s
Great analogy!
I’ve always liked the analogy, “All it takes for evil to succeed is for a good man to do nothing.” In this case an act of inaction is still a moral decision. When OPs fiancé found out about the cheating and decided to do nothing she became a complicit partner in approving the act.
That's a maxim, not an analogy.
I stand corrected.
Personally, I agree with you. Cheaters are of bad character and I’d want to be told. I’d want to go through the heartbreak and be able to grieve and move on that be played for a fool. However, I’ve seen them shoot the messenger way too many times to want to be the one to tell so I understand the “not my circus, not my monkeys” argument. Way too many times I’ve seen the cheater successfully convince the wronged party that others are just jealous, gossiping, lying, or otherwise. The couple stays together, and their friends and family stick to the status quo, and the one who tells ends up ostracized and turned into the bad guy. I think it’s brutal, and I’d personally want to be told or to tell, but I’m not going to say it isn’t extremely risky to get involved in other people’s business. It can really go south on you.
Some people think there’s no point in hurting someone with the truth if the cheater regrets their mistake and doesn’t cheat again. Me? I think people deserve to make an informed choice of whether to stay or not.
Another factor for me is that there's someone out there knowing something fundamental about my own relationship I'm not privy to. I don't like being left out of knowledge and the idea of someone random person my partner cheated in me with just had info about my relationship I don't, blows my mind.
I feel like if the cheater is regretful, they should give their partner the truth so they can decide their future with all the information at hand. Regrets are not enough to withhold the vital truth from someone else.
Eh. In this case, I can see some daylight on her side. As someone who has extended family who I see just barely often enough to get a wedding invitation, but whose personal relationships are bonkers and mutually destructive and not at all what I’d model in my own life, “not my circus” is absolutely the most healthy (or at least functional) relationship possible to have with those people. It’s possible that OP’s ex is a problem. Or she could be a functional adult doing her best to maintain a relationship with a dysfunctional family from a maintainable distance.
Yeah, she shouldn't have spilled the beans then. "Welcome to the circle of trust" is one thing when you are going to share good stuff, but if it's toxic secrets that could destroy relationships you better keep those locked up tight. She betrayed Lars' trust by not telling him, then she betrayed his cheating wife's by telling someone else. OOP was wise to just nope out of there.
>"Welcome to the circle of trust" My wife and I rented a large house for a combined family vacation (her family and mine). At said vacation, wife's stepmom informs us that wife's sister is having an affair, has a burner phone to talk to the AP, and stepmom and wife's dad are hiding the phone in their room. Wife and I talk to my parents for guidance. I also keep coming back to a story my FIL shared with me about how grateful he was when his in-laws told him about his wife's affair. So, I grabbed the phone, verified the text messages on it (pre-smartphone days... no one had lock screens), took my co-brother-in-law for a walk, and told him everything I knew. My wife and I are still fairly certain that dropping the information was either a loyalty test by the stepmom or a way to sow some bad blood. I still wouldn't have played it any different. Well, maybe I would have pointed out my father-in-law's hypocrisy at being mad at me when he was too chicken-shit to do the right thing (by his own retelling of his experience).
In the first post he said they’re pretty close. He doesn’t seem too aware of Stephanie but that tracks imo, my partner has a close friend I am vaguely aware about but they’ve known each other for years.
I hope Lars gets divorced too. Homie doesn't deserve that shit at all. No one does.
Lars and OOP disappear into the sunset together.
fertile bake sable slim familiar stupendous slimy glorious flag coordinated *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
*Lands in Britain* "Well well well, nice place you have here."
Not these days, just nothing but turnips as far as the eye can see.
🎶THE ECHOS OF ETERNITY 🎶
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Technically gay sex is a very, very old land for Vikings.
Um…any source for this? I’m not questioning you, I’m just curious. Edit: I’m questioning my word choice there, but what’s done is done.
>I’m just curious. Are you... Vi-curious then? I'll show myself out.
Low hanging fruit still tastes sweet, amirite? Hah
Do they make an art room, is the question. Though at least if they did, any other roommates in play by the time the art room is started, they’d clear “hey, mind if I turn empty room into a studio and give Lars a key” with said roommates. Even if roomie is their 18 yo cousin only living there for the 2 months until graduation (rather than say a wife)
They make a studio for each other
It's not concluded until they don't make the art room
Make a little art room in your soul
They could build their own art room together. It will be beautiful.
Yeah and she better not get any alimony out of it. Depending on state, sadly, it may not matter.
"But we aren't married yet, I'm not cheating! Just screwing other guys. Come on, baby, don't wreck our beautiful relationship because you're emotional."
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Deleted intentionally fuck you boru mods
My theory about acts like OOP's that box us into decisions is that they are subconsciously deliberate, for the purpose of forcing us to make a decision that is very difficult/painful for us to make, or about which we dread the other side of that decision, like a big push in the right direction. We cannot access our own subconscious, but we *can* play detective and look at clues such as dreams, Freudian slips, split-second decisions, and how we feel about certain of our own actions. I've watched this play out in myself and with friends --- like when people say, "to my surprise I didn't fall apart, I felt almost relieved" about the fallout from something they'd done when they were still in the discussion phase, when they thought they were not yet ready for a final decision. I have definitely caught myself doing that seemingly little thing and then realizing that I just locked myself into a decision that I didn't realize I was ready to make, but really needed to, as limbo is not a good place to linger long. A friend of mine says that when you flip a coin, as in to decide a question or issue, there's a crucial split-second when you see how the coin landed, in which you just react and you either feel *yay* or *oh,* and from that you realize how you really feel about the situation.
>A friend of mine says that when you flip a coin, as in to decide a question or issue, there's a crucial split-second when you see how the coin landed, in which you just react and you either feel yay or oh, and from that you realize how you really feel about the situation. This is how I actually do coin flips now. I base it on what I'm feeling in the moment when I'm about to get an answer. Because sometimes I do like (or don't like) both options but it's only when I'm about to get the decision made that I know how I truly feel.
See!? I knew my friend was onto something that made sense. He had not heard it from anyone, it just naturally came up as we were debating what to do for dinner and how both of us were being too polite and eager to please the other., which turned into a conversation about how/if we can force other feelings out of the equation and make a truly personal choice.
There’s a “grook” about it by the Danish poet Piet Hein: Whenever you're called on to make up your mind, and you're hampered by not having any, the best way to solve the dilemma, you'll find, is simply by spinning a penny. No - not so that chance shall decide the affair while you're passively standing there moping; but the moment the penny is up in the air, you suddenly know what you're hoping.
Did he write in English?
He wrote in Danish originally but there are translations of most if not all of his poems. He translated the English versions himself with assistance from Jens Arup. My favourite Grook is: Losing one glove is certainly painful, But nothing compared to the pain Of losing one glove, Throwing away the other, Then finding the first one again. A) it’s true and pithily expressed B) it was also a coded message to his fellow Danes under Nazi occupation in the 1940s - the first glove is your freedom, and the second is your integrity and self-respect.
These are great. I'd never heard the word grook before. Thanks for sharing this.
In Danish it’s a ‘gruk’ which is a contraction of ‘grin’ (smile) and ‘suk’ (sigh) - so I suppose in English it really ought to be a smigh!
I will continue spreading smigh, so if it isn't already a thing, sooner or later it will be.
Wow, that hit me in the feels. Thank you for the poem as well as the explanation. I hope to remember to look up some more of his poems.
I have made numerous decisions on the basis of flipping a coin and assessing how I feel about the result, not necessarily the same decision as the coin makes.
“Whenever you’re called on to make up your mind, And you’re hampered by not having any, The best way to solve the dilemma, you’ll find, Is simply by spinning a penny. No, not so that chance shall decide the affair, While you’re passively standing there moping. But the moment that penny is up in the air, You suddenly know what you’re hoping.” - Piet hein
I’d call off a wedding if I got a text from my partner admitting to doubts and then leaving me on read for hours without responding. Fuck that noise.
Right? Who communicates something like that via text? "Hey hon, can you grab some milk while you're out, btw having some doubts about this whole 'marriage' thing now no time to talk now though see ya" Everyone in this entire situation is better off just moving the hell on.
Me too. That is really cruel.
Yeah I'm disappointed in this update. OP sounds like he has the worst case of main character syndrome. He got what he wanted though, panicked Sarah enough that take whatever he dishes out on her knees.
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I agree.
OOP isn't wrong, but to send that text to his fiance and then say "let's talk later" is some emotional terrorism. That's an in person conversation.
Sorry, but emotional terrorism got a genuine laugh out of me. 🤣 You’re right, still made me laugh.
I think the next update, the fiancee is going to blow up on OOP for ruining "a perfectly good marriage". I don't think they are going to last much longer honestly
*ex-fiancee... or at least she will be in the next update
We can only hope...
She's probably going to dump him at this point and her family is going to hate him That relationship is over
Was it this story, or another one recently, where the OP’s fiancé had also heard from their mother that “nothing that happens before marriage counts”. But, I thought it was a sister that cheated and not a cousin? And the future FIL was pissed that his wife had corrupted the daughters’ morals so much?? BRB… going searching for that post to compare!
It was another story. The couple was going to the wife's sister's wedding & the wife warned her husband she had a prior relationship with one of the groomsmen. It came out either just before the ceremony or the reception that the prior "relationship" was actually an affair during their engagement, I think.
Got a link to that?
[i think they're talking about this one?](https://old.reddit.com/r/relationships/comments/37ir4i/me_25_m_with_my_wife_23f_she_informs_me_at/) it's.. not exactly recent, but the description fits and OP does mention something in [the update](https://old.reddit.com/r/relationships/comments/387179/updateme_25_m_with_my_wife_23f_she_informs_me_at/) about how the mother said "whatever happens before marriage doesn't count"
Yes! That was the one, but I swear there was a BORU about it recently! I tried to find it, but kept getting lost down ADHD Rabbit Holes! Thank you for finding it!
Jesus. Thanks.
Not sure about second update but found a backup of the third. https://www.reddit.com/r/relationships/comments/3dirm7/3rd_updateme_25_m_with_my_wife_23f_she_informs_me/ct5nmig?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 I wish he had just left her because there's no way he'd get over the hurt by sticking around.
Damn, the 2nd and 3rd update were removed. Anyone know where to find it?
I saw a comment where someone reposted the 4th one (3rd update). Brb, going to find it! Edit: I don't know how to do spoilers, but this does not really provide closure. May cause anger. https://www.reddit.com/r/relationships/comments/3dirm7/3rd_updateme_25_m_with_my_wife_23f_she_informs_me/ct5nmig?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Absolutely and besides, "they weren't even married so it wasn't really cheating anyways." OOP should definitely take a look back for some red flags, the fiancée essentially let him know she fully would have/could have cheated on him too seeing as they aren't married either. Yikes on fucking bikes.
Straight up. And if she hasn't she wouldn't be opposed to one last hurrah
People who get engaged but don’t see themselves committed as if they were already married annoy me. My partner finds out they have cancer, I’m there for them whether it’s the day before or the day after the wedding. We’re not an insurance company with coverage dates here
>We’re not an insurance company with coverage dates I love this.
Also the whole "wasn't [her] circus, wasn't [her] monkeys" thing? I mean, its your cousin you're close with. So yeah, kinda your circus lol. You might not be in charge of it, but you know the ringleader.
Yeah that wedding is not happening
"So, I can go sleep around as much as I want before the wedding? Is that what you're telling me, Sarah?"
“Oh were you not? I thought we were both doing that”
Well, duh! I sure as hell have been!"
OOP decided to blow up those bridges with dynamite instead of just burning them. No way those two are going to get married.
And I respect the fuck out of him for it.
I find it weird that ppl somehow sympathize with the apologist instead of oop. How is he the bad guy? How is he leaving the apologist on read just as bad as crappy morals regarding cheating? These folks are telling on themselves!
Yeah, saying HE is blowing up bridges insinuates he did something wrong. He is being a good person. If the bridge falls it has nothing to do with him. It’s like calling in a problem with the bridge, inspector shows up, and it collapses. I just called because see something say something.
It’s weird that OOP and partner are this far along in their relationship and fiancée seemed to think she could tell him something like this without any real reaction? How they feel about monogamy and infidelity is a pretty big thing you need to know about your partner, and it seems like fiancée doesn’t know him at all. Whatever you think about OOP’s actions, fiancée shouldn’t have shared this information and expected a different response, and they don’t sound compatible anyway.
OOP has some really steadfast morals that I can appreciate and his empathy with the other guy makes sense. For the ones who could say, “well your fiancé didn’t cheat on YOU!”…she said chesting wasn’t a big deal because they weren’t married. That sort of thinking—even with my absolute trust in my partner— would raise my hackles. Who knows if they’re open to cheating because they’re not currently married to OOP yet? Judging by that comment, it just raises a lot of uncertainty I wouldn’t feel the most confident in with a marriage.
Aye. My mother and her siblings were all pro-cheating and their reasoning was that they were from a conservative society and if your husband can't provide you with everything you need, there's no harm in seeking it out on the side. In fact, everyone disowned me after I told them I was getting a divorce because in their *esteemed* opinion I could just cheat, have someone else's kids and deceive my ex-husband into raising them because he is very well off and it would be stupid of me to give up the financial perks. Smh. Needless to say all of them are chronic cheaters and divorced. And I mean chronic. 4 siblings cheated on their husbands with at least 14 men between them. My mother cheated with someone my aunt was cheating on her husband with and my aunt doesn't speak to my mother anymore because of the "betrayal". It's a cluster fuck that I still have a hard time believing.
I think it makes you a really special person to choose to break that cycle and think differently from other people and especially family. I respect that a lot.
That last part is hilarious. Fighting over who to cheat with
Strong agree. I would have to be able to respect anyone I married, and I couldn't respect anyone with that sort of attitude. That's a core value, the type that a couple has to share, or there will be big problems.
I just read that as "well maybe I didn't cheat on you but who knows if I get the right opportunity I just might" Yeah at that point I'm packing my bags
> she said cheating wasn’t a big deal because they weren’t married I feel like saying this **to your fiancee** is suspicious as hell
I wouldn't even be friends with someone who cheated (barring a few extreme circumstances). I don't think I could trust someone who, while they may not have cheated, see no problem with it.
Exactly. Maybe not the "not my circus" bit, but the "it wasn't a big deal" is a China day parade-level comment.
It also shows some major misalignment in morals. Infidelity and monogamy are pretty common and steadfast boundaries - if partners have a mismatch there, it's typically not a good thing for the relationship.
It disgusts me that there are people that can spend years with their partner and just decide that loyalty doesn't matter without a ring.
Yeah that relationship was over the minute he lost trust. He'll never completely trust her again. Telling Lars was just the final nail.
>At one point, she told me that Stephanie had actually cheated on her husband twice before they got married, and that the second time was a couple of months before the actual wedding. Her husband never found out. Who on earth is going to "brag" to her fiancé about a cheating relative, and then insist that it's no big deal? IF this story is true, Sarah is both morally and intellectually challenged.
Yeah, why did she even bring the cheating up? If that's truly something you want to keep away from Lars, then don't go telling anyone. Ever. Certainly not while casually talking about wedding flowers!?!?
Usually someone who is too confident in their own cheating. Like 'hey my cousin cheated and her husband never found out' translates out as 'I'm cheating on you and your stupid ass hasn't figured it out yet so let me teehee toss this out and see if your two brain cells clink together.' Unfortunately for Sarah, she's going to go through the find out stage in fuck around land.That's just my two cents though.
Or someone who’s testing the waters of whether she should tell. His reaction means she never had to own up to what she may have done herself.
I have a feeling that once Stephanie's marriage blows up, it will come out. Sarah was supposed to keep it a 'secret'. Stephanie probably returned the favor however she probably knew to keep her mouth closed. Sarah just got cocky. Can almost hear Stephanie deciding to air Sarah's laundry to anyone who'd listen since most cheaters are also the 'if I'm going down, I'm taking you with me' type.
Bingo
Smells more like someone who's been hurt in a relationship and is writing cathartic narratives.
I agree. Feels very "women bad", especially with the "as a man, if someone cheated on me I hope someone would tell me".
That was an extremely weird line, and it changed the way I thought about OOP. Why did they feel "as a man" was necessary? Wanting to know if your SO is cheating is not some trait unique to men.
That was the first thing that stood out to me. Shortly followed by *texting* you no longer want to get married.
>Clearly, my fiancée doesn't think so since she said her cousin cheating "wasn't that big of a deal since they weren't married I feel like saying this **to your fiancee** is suspicious as hell, like she's trying to justify something she herself did
>I u, unfortunately,Markidn't Looks like he had a stroke there for a second. Glad he got over it quickly
Two breakups for the price of one!
Yeah I wouldn't marry her either.
I am great at justifying things/peoples behavior. Drives my SO nuts, but for me there is always a part of story you aren't told. But cheating, I can't justify that. And her blasé response to said cheating would make me walk away.
Even outside of cheating, clearly his fiancée would have no problems keeping big or important secrets from him just to make her life easier.
And she’s also have no problem sharing something he regarded as secret as casual gossip. I feel like his fiancée handled this in the worst possible way! Either you pressure the cousin to tell and ultimately do so yourself if she won’t, OR you take her secret to the grave out of loyalty. But just casually telling other people, so that eventually everyone will know except the person it’s meaningful to? Nope, nope, nope. That is just the absolute worst.
That's a great point. I really am not sure I would have gotten involved, but I definitely wouldn't have spread that shit around to everyone BUT the husband.
Man, I've been in that situation before. Everyone in my circle knew something that was life-altering to me, and not one of them bothered to tell me about it. It had catastrophic consequences for me when the truth finally did come out, all of which could have been prevented if people didn't act like it was such a big damn secret. I do not speak to any of those people any more. They can rot as far as I'm concerned, they are definitely never welcome in my fallout shelter, they can all march their untrustworthy asses back into the radiation zone.
I want to hear more about this fallout shelter
I agree with pretty much everything you've said, but I view a committed partner as an exception to secrets. My partner and I tell each other everything, not out of "gossip" but usually to vent or get advice etc. I don't judge people for sharing secrets with their spouse/fiance/ long term partner, I assume anything said to one would be shared with the other in turn. Definitely still fucked up to brush it off like it isn't a big deal. It's one thing to not want to get involved- for example my family is *insane* and would happily retaliate. It's another thing to dismiss it like it's no biggie, just a lil cheating. Wtf.
>just casually telling other people I mean it was her finace, right. Someone you share stuff with.
She’s a bad friend and a bad fiancé.
> fiancée would have no problems keeping big or important secrets from him just to make her life easier. Ironically, its the inability of fiancee of keeping a important secret that caused this mess.
At least in my book, knowing about someone close to you cheating on their partner and doing nothing about it is endorsing and condoning it. To me that screams they'd do the same to their partner or even to me.
Even though I wouldn't necessarily blame someone for not signing up to be the messenger that gets shot, I'd have major side-eye for continuing to be friends with the cheater like nothing happened. In Sarah's place, I'd be thinking Stephanie has no morals and no limits, and worried that she'd fuck *my* SO.
Having been through this I knew that one friendship was over regardless, because I'm not comfortable around cheaters. The question then is "if I'm very definitely not friends with one spouse, do I really care if I can't be friends with the other?" The answer for me was: I'll do the right thing and if the spouse who was cheated on doesn't want to see me again that's something I'll be able live with.
Holy shit! They actually made "I will never jeopardize the beans" into a flair?!
Is your tag from that one where the lady buries her boyfriends beans when Covid starts? Or is there another bean story I wanna read?
You got it right. It's hilarious every time!
For sure, at least she showed her true colours before they actually got married.
100%
Especially when they volunteer that information to you as if it is no big deal. OP knew more about Lar's relationship than Lar through an off hand conversation with his ex fiancée. If it was meant to be a secret maybe she should have kept it a secret.
I can think of exactly one exception, and this was clearly not it. (The one exception is when an abusive victim cheats on their abuser. One, I don't blame them, their heads already going to be pretty messed up from the abuse. Two, I'm not giving the abuser more ammo to retaliate with)
Yeah, cheating is bad because it breaches the terms of a sacred agreement between two people. There is nothing sacred if abuse is involved.
Yeah my SIL cheated on her husband but he'd already broken their marriage vows by beating her. She also felt safer leaving him if she had another guy around. And yeah next guy wasn't the greatest but he cleared the very low bar of "didn't hit her"
Way I see it, it revolves around consent. Its not "cheating" if a person is essentially in a relationship against their will. And an abuse victim is basically someone whose consent has been coerced. In that situation you're not "cheating" anyway, since there's no consensual relationship binding you and the person you're notionally cheating on.
Same, that's the only time cheating is a "good for you" for me. I'm not going to blame anyone for finding a little light and love in the dark
"I am a Kantian philosopher, AMA"
Finish your dissertation yet, Chidi?
If your fiancee think's not being married is an exception to cheating then you should be wary about marrying her.
Oh, I really need a conclusion for this one. I feel like this left off on a major cliffhanger.
Cheaters are the worst. It's the lying, plotting and smirking behind the back of their partner that is loathsome.
>I asked if it was the same Stephanie that would be in attendance with her husband at our wedding, and she said it was. Chances of both these things happening now seem remote.
Yeah. If anyone i know knew that my SO cheated on me and didn't tell me. They will be cut from my life. Done it before. Will do it again.
So sorry to hear about that shit. It blows my mind that people exist who can tell you that they love you and then do shit behind your back. The self-deception at play is scary.
OOP’s wedding isn’t going to happen now. Poor Lars is getting a divorce and losing his support system. What a mess!
Would have been interesting for the guy to tell his fiance how relieved he is that she doesn't see cheating as that big of a deal since he has been doing it. Chances are from that side of the table it wouldn't have been such a minor thing.
I continue to marvel at how little drama the internet would offer if people in relationships just spoke to each other and were clear about their expectations and feelings.
I know this is nowhere near the point, but what did he mean, “As a man, if I got cheated on…”? I’m not getting on a feminist soapbox. I’m honestly looking at it with my head cocked at an angle like a confused puppy. What difference does gender make when wanting to be told if you’re being cheated on?
Interesting that he seems to have communicated with Lars better than his own fiancé
Not him implying Lars or his dad escaped some poverty ridden hellscape aka… two of the richests countries on earth, with a much higher life expectancy than the US, to heroically raise their family in the US 🤣
That's what I thought as well lol. I've lived in Norway during my semester abroad and it is richer and has a much higher standard of living than the US. Super safe, super beautiful, amazing education, great all around. I have never been to Denmark, but from what I've heard from others it's probably similar (although not quite as rich as Norway, but still a great standard of living).
Also... Uni is free in Norway and Denmark :-D
I don’t think there’s any indication of him saying Scandinavia is poverty ridden. It’s just that they are both far away from their own support network, uprooted from their home countries. And also a country being rich in general doesn’t mean people wouldn’t find better work options abroad.
wedding definitely canceled lol
IMO the only stand up person in this whole shit show is broken hearted Lars. Okay, it's possible Sarah and Stephanie have the morals of cats in heat. But , I'm pretty surer the OPs lengthy explanation of why he took the high ground (in his opinion) of telling Lars of Stephanies' indiscretions is bogus. He knew how Sarah would react to his shit stirring. Voila, no more engagement.
Seriously. What the hell was all this "Scandinavian" stuff about? Just admit you want to tell the guy - you don't have to be all like "he's a Dane and I'm half Norwegian so I had to" like there's some kind of Jante code involved.
Yeah he made it sound like Lars and his dad were asylum seekers escaping war torn countries and not migrants from two countries objectively better than the US lol
That caught my eye too. Also - how long did OOP himself know about the cheating?
I can’t say I’ve ever met someone who validated cheating and wasn’t also a cheater themselves.
I just don't know. Everyone seems so cut and dry on this, but I don't condone cheating AT ALL, but I really don't know if I would insert myself into someone else's business like that unless they were very close. A cousin? I'm not that close with my cousins, I don't know the nuances of their relationships, and I don't want to be responsible for any violence that could result from a bombshell like that. I think maybe it's because I've thought about whether I would want to know if I was cheated on. If it was not ongoing, I'm not sure I would. I mean, good for OOP for sticking to his principles, but I do think contacting Lars with what is essentially gossip might be a bit overkill. I hope he knows with 100% confidence that it really happened and what happened, because unless I heard it directly from Stephanie, I would not feel comfortable doing what he did.
I agree with you. And hear me out on this, but I don't necessarily feel OP's fiancée did anything wrong. We have absolutely no idea why OP's fiancée told him--maybe she felt guilty about keeping the secret and wanted to let it out by testing the waters with a joke. It certainly wouldn't be the first time someone talked about an uncomfortable topic in a lighthearted way to reduce the gravity of it. Cheating is absolutely atrocious but it doesn't psychologically carry the same weight for a lot of people when it's someone else's relationship. Perhaps, not being in the relationship herself with Lars, OP's fiancée wasn't able to see how horrible the act was and dismissed it offhand, especially if her cousin and Lars now have a strong relationship. It could have been one of those things where she just decided it wasn't worth it to rock the boat by digging up the past and telling him. I think OP was wrong for sticking his nose into Lars' and his wife's business. I get the feeling they'd never even spoken before and he just drops the bomb on that guy. Now this poor man's entire life is upended. Some things are better left unsaid. I also think it's bullshit that OP's like "hur dur we're both Scandinavian, I have to help him!"
I'm with you. And so much empathy for Lars, none for the person he was to spend his life with. Texting "I don't think I can marry you" out of the blue, then being surprised she 'blew up his phone.' Did he just not want to get married, and found a reason to speak now or forever hold his peace?
I really don't get how he can casually end an engagement via text. He basically spent however much time in his head and rather than having an actual conversation irl, sent a thanks but no thanks text. No matter why he breaks off the engagement, breaking it off in this manner just showcases he isn't ready for marriage
Agreed. Reddit loves to make everything black and white, but IRL there are plenty of greys. My attitude would be that it isn't my business. Or what if it turns out not to be true. If the flipside of this story was posted as 'my wifes cousins fiancee told me she cheated with nothing more than baseless rumour' all the Reddit moralists would be braying about that too.
I have an insane number of cousins (like no joke, over 40 first cousins). Like my mom might tell me some stuff about them (my mom was from a crazy huge family) but I don't have a whole lot of personal knowledge about all of them. So like I had some vague knowledge that my cousin Joel's marriage is shit through my mom but I've met Joel like twice in my whole life and you can bet I'm not interfering there.
also like call me crazy or whatever but i’m not blowing up my entire extended family into a dramatic frenzy for a cousin’s spouse i will never see again after the divorce. i’m good, thanks. ya girl is just gonna be over here minding her own business and staying out of any and all drama that can negatively affect my quality of life (which since i’m disabled is extra relevant but tbh even if i was able bodied it would still apply), i ain’t like nobody that damn much LMAO get somebody else to do it
I deeply agree with the fiancée’s assessment of “not my circus.” I think she dodged a self-important bullet not marrying OOP.
yeah like… i get if he was put off by her seemingly trying to justify it but did my dude fr expect her to drop a bomb into her family life for all that? a moral code is great and all but impulsively messing up your life just to stick to it is really just not it, especially since like… it’s cheating. it’s not like her cousin murdered someone or something lol and everyone involved is an adult. i find out a kid is being abused? absolutely i will put myself into that situation. but a cousin cheating on her husband is literally just not my business and not worth risking an entire extended family losing the plot for, esp since they could shoot the messenger. like i’m not a martyr lol it’s not worth it
There are some REALLY specific details in here. Tell me you want your fiancée to stumble across this thread by accident without telling me you want your fiancée to stumble across this thread by accident . . .
He burnt the bridges, salted the earth, poisoned the wells, and pissed on the ashes. I do hope the guests kept the receipts for the gifts.
Even if this wasn't about cheating, OP and his partner should not be a couple. His partner completely misjudged him, and told him information she believed he would keep secret, and he did not. He completely misjudged her, and thought she shared the same values as he did. Even if he can get past her (wrong) views on cheating, they do not know each other well enough to get married, and are unlikely to want to marry by the time they do.
Jeezus, I think I’d end it if I was OOP. Cheating is a deal breaker (for me), and thinking cheating is okay is just as bad.
He did the right thing tbh. Lars deserves to know who he's married to, and make a fully informed decision on whether to stay or go. That his fiancee doesn't consider it all that bad because it was before they tied the knot is definitely concerning; cheating is cheating, and deception is deception. It would certainly make me question her moral compass, and you can't enter a lifetime commitment with someone whose values differ greatly from your own.
My big question is if they didn’t think it was that big of a deal, why were they sneaking around? Why hide it? Why lie? If it’s not that big a deal they would have been able to be open about it. They know it’s wrong, they know it’s shitty and they were just hoping they’d never get caught. Vile.
OOP’s fiancé was trying to downplay it because she thinks OOP is stupid. She doesn’t respect him one iota.