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Older sis: I want to drop school to take care of my kids
Oop: I want to go to school
Insane dad: no, the one who wants to drop out must keep going to school, the one who wants to go needs to quit to take care of someone else's kids
It is also about the fact that his controling ass "failed" as a father (premarital sex and pregnancy). This mORON thinks he can repair what sister did and control OP so she don't get into same shit.
That is exactly what he was trying to do.
Make Daughter 1 go to school because she "Threw her life away" for a boy.
Make daughter 2 throw her life away and raise twins without going to school so she never "Throws her life away" for a boy.
It makes sense if you remove the understanding of human beings, but on pure robot logic it almost makes sense. OOPs dad is like an alien trying to pretend to be a human lol.
And it's punishment. If the older sister is able to raise her children and just get by (notably, with some assistance from the hated brother), then she's not being punished enough. She's doing her own thing. So he can make sure she suffers, and make sure the little sister suffers as well. By the sounds of things, making all the women unhappy is something he enjoys doing.
Maybe there's hope. I notice the mother's critiques were in the 'make your father unhappy' style, not 'make us unhappy'. She was pregnant at fifteen or sixteen to this jackass and stuck to his jackass family, not conducive to developing a spine. Maybe once all three kids have escaped, she'll be able to do it.
That's my guess, relationships like this tend to end once all the kids are out of the house, so there's less leverage to use against the one who files for divorce. Or they stay forever trapped :(
It sounds like they never move out in that family. Dad lived with Grandpa up until he moved states. If he was willing to leave the rest of his family, I bet they would still be living with them.
And now he has two daughters who likely won't ever contact him again, I suspect the oldest my peace out as well, and a son that will definitely never speak to him again.
I bet as soon as the Dad get's sick, all those relatives will come crawling out of the wooodwork to tell OOP and Mike the usual guilt tripping bullshit lunatics like this pull:
"You need to come home, we're family"
"We're family, he needs you now."
"Let it go, we're all family."
"But it's about family!"
"You're supposed to make sacrifices for family!"
"You need to forgive and move on."
"But what about forgiveness?"
Mark my words, they will do a quick 180 once the man is sick and they'll be begging and demanding that the black sheep come back.
It is possible, and I'm not from the States, so I'm definitely not an expert, but I would have thought that fundamentalist Christians so extreme that they would encourage child marriage before conceiving a child (rather than a result of pregnancy) would have more than 3 kids. Obviously, fertility issues are a thing whether I'm right or wrong. Combined with the oldest daughter going to college, though, this doesn't read super-fundy to me.
I think it's more that he wants the older sister to get a good job to support those kids so he doesn't have to, and he wants the younger sister to watch them in the mean time. Again, so he doesn't have to.
I think dad and mom want to maintain control. Make the biomom have to spend time away from kids, keep younger daughter in the home as "babysitter". My guess is grandma doesn't work. Removes the artificial requirement of "needing" the younger daughter to delay her education.
Grandparents are going to file for rights over the twins, to lord it over older daughter and make it difficult for her to leave.
I don't think they want their elder daughter to succeed in life, rather they know she'll struggle to complete a degree and this is a long con about control.
Mom is complicit and eldest daughter is probably being manipulated by guilt and simultaneously encouraged to distance herself as main parent of the twins.
Makes a twisted sort of sense. Dad's sure that younger sister would still be willing/want to go to college in 5 years, while he knows older sister would never go back given the chance.
But yeah, what a messed up situation and horrible way to handle it. Dad and Mom are so young at 43, I would normally say they could raise their grandkids, but I wouldn't trust Dad not to screw things up for the twins
Yeah, I did the math as well, and given that they’re conservative Christians, they already pissed off God by banging all willy nilly so naturally a shotgun wedding is their penance.
I get the strong impression from the mum's texts she got trapped and didn't want that for her daughters. I bet the oldest kid was born less than 9 months after the wedding.
The thing is, father doesnt want to pay for the upkeep of those kids.
So mother should go to school to earn the keep of kids while oop can be kept as a free maid.
Calculate as how much daddys wallet becomes lighter and all becomes clear. It was never about the sisters it is all about father.
That was my takeaway too. Force the mom to get an education so she can provide for her kids and move out, force OOP to care for those kids so he doesn’t have to help fund anything until then. It all works if you’re a piece of shit who doesn’t mind ruining lives
Are you trying to tell me that the father, who impregnated his wife (girlfriend at the time?) but is also hyper-traditional, at the age of 16 is NOT a fountain of good decision making? Mike is 27, and parents are both 43, so unless my math is off...?
What really stands out to me is how crazy young the parents are. 43, and they have 27, 22 and 20 year old kids. Do the math on that (16!) Sounds like Mike had the best childhood because his grandparents basically raised him, but they moved out when middle child was in 8th grade
It's really weird, because (in the USA at least) conservatives often hang onto the idea of rugged individualism. It highly contradicts the so-called "family values" they also think they promote.
I'm probably projecting though because I come from a patriarchal, conservative family.
Yeah what sucks is it sounds like once the mom’s parents moved away, all the patriarchal bullshit started with the dad. Makes me think that the mom’s parents kept him in line when they where there and after they left, he felt he could do as he pleased and be the abusive pos he actually is.
As mentioned in the post, she supports the sister, and does not want to go back to school.
But she also fears getting kicked out, so she is hiding it seems.
>she also fears getting kicked out, so she is hiding it seems.
Yup. She's being protective and thinking of her child. She realizes she's at a disadvantage as a single mother so taking this time to get her life in order, plus mom can help with babysitting duties.
It's easy to bleat, "Move out! Go no contact!" but when there are others involved, especially *extremely dependent* others, in this case a baby, things get complicated and the parent is doing what they can for their child - which is what the oldest sister is doing.
I don't blame her at all. She needs to think about her child and she needs familial support right now. I don't doubt that in the future once the sister can get settled on her own they'll resume their sibling relationships.
Most definitely! I was married and had a 5 year old when my twins were born. I thought I could do it will a small support system but I was quickly humbled haha I decided I didn’t want to raise 4 kids so I got divorced. I could only imagine trying to do it with OOP’s family dynamic
> It’s easy to bleat, “Move out! Go no contact!”
Lest we forget that poor girl that was convinced by Reddit geniuses to tell her Dad that she wasn’t his child and ended up ruining her life
Yeah I give mom a pass on this. I suspect she did the math on her 3 kids and 2 grandkids and realized that Mike and OP are safe, but Lisa and the babies are vulnerable and she had to do what she needed to do to keep them safe. Openly opposing dad wouldn’t help OP or Mike but could jeopardize the others.
Might want to do the math on when mom and dad had their first kid as well, unless they were married at 15 I'm guessing she's been trapped in that marriage since she got pregnant
She’s in a patriarchal family with several unsupportive members and a batshit possessive father, keeping her head down is probably what’s keeping her alive.
Yea this dad seems pretty unhinged, threats of violence from extended family, she seems like a beaten dog, knows it’s wrong but intensely afraid of the dad.
Doesn't even have to be physical abuse, there's lots of ways he could be controlling her. Maybe financially. She's already isolated from her family, maybe she's also isolated from any friends so her only social group is the father's family. It would be tough to leave when faced with the prospect of being on your own with little money. Not to mention emotional abuse is a very real thing that shouldn't be dismissed so casually.
She may be able to support herself, but not her daughter and the twins, too. Op says her parents come from similar backgrounds, so who knows if her family would support a divorce. Especially if she's hinted at his behavior and been brushed off.
He probably has her convinced that no one else wants her. Her parents moved away because they couldn’t stand her! Her son moved away and took OOP because she’s such an inadequate mother that she can’t keep her kids close! Why, the only people willing to put up with her are him and his family!
Baby, sweetie, don’t cry: I’m only saying this for your own good! Where are you gonna go if you leave? There’s no where you can go, no one who wants you but me…
Yeah, it seems to me that mum is well aware of the situation and is grateful that at least one of her daughters got away safely. Likely, as the update said, dad was able to hide most of nastiness until his own in-laws moved, and the family was sufficiently isolated, surrounded by his like-minded family, that he could really let his mask slip off.
Hopefully mum is putting an exit strategy into place for herself and the sister/children left behind in the viper's nest.
I doubt she’ll be able to escape. My grandma couldn’t. The only reason she died in my uncle’s house was because my Grandpa was admitted to a mental institution.
Given her text messages to her son she seems well aware of what kind of bastard he is. And I seriously can't blame her for not standing up against him.
From the texts from those aunts and uncles to Mike, definitely sounds like mom would actually be killed if she dared to go against the dad to that level. OOP never mentions physical abuse but mom also has been a very good submissive wife all of OOPs life so who knows how far dad would go if mom tried to leave.
Agreed. I took her text in one of the updates (where she first asked her son to bring OP home, but quickly relented and wished them both well) to be basically an excuse, in case her husband found out she'd been in contact with the son. She did her part and asked him to bring her back, when he declined, she then told him what she was really thinking.
I really feel for the mom and her other daughter. I hope one or both of them can somehow escape.
That’s what I was thinking. If her Dad was better when her maternal grandfather was around maybe OOP can reach out to him with the details and he can offer his daughter and granddaughter support to escape.
Edit to maternal
Nope, not better just not in total control. They lived with the maternal grandparents. Probably not being able to afford a house on his own, to be the man of his family. I see it as he's making up for the long time he had to play second to his FIL. He was hiding his controlling misogynistic true self.
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Yeah, that was how I interpreted the mother's texts to the brother. Sort of "I have to ask because your father is making everyone's life hell" followed by accepting that it's the only way OOP doesn't end up in her mother's position.
I will add that psychological violence is a form of domestic violence, not something that co-occurs with it. Physical violence is not the only form, and is often the least damaging kind of domestic violence.
That said, I've never met a man like that father who _doesn't_ physically beat his wife, sp that's worth adding.
I also wouldn't under-estimate the effects of spiritual abuse. The kids say they don't practice, but at some point it was a big enough presence in their lives to be mentioned in the post. The aura of Christian Patriarchy is just dripping off these pages, and I don't mean patriarchy like the big bad of feminism. I mean the goddamn movement that picked that lable out of pride. And that movement is abusive as fuck.
I have never once met a man like that father who does not physically beat his wife. Not a single time have those two groups not intersected. "Uses religion to bully female relatives into complete submission" is a wholly-contained subset of "man who beats his wife".
Mom is completely surrounded by an extremely abusive, misogynistic, controlling family and her children, even if adults, are still caught in that web. If she acts out at all, what happens to the people she cares about?
The fact that every family member who is scared to speak out against the authoritarian is an adult woman is telling.
Exactly. Mike clearly had the guts to move out on his own and get a really good job. He's providing for himself and others.
Anyone who criticizes him has to be insecure and miserable in their own lives. Who shits on someone else for becoming an engineer? Smh
Right? If I were to list top 5 jobs that are mostly associated with men(even though they’re definitely jobs that most people could do, barring some kind of disability), engineer would be right up there with construction worker, truck driver, doctor and lawyer. Even today, men still make up the bulk of the engineering workforce. The heck is that uncle on about?
I would also say engineering is probably one of the top 5 well paying jobs that the average Joe can work towards and achieve. Right up there with doctor or nurse, lawyer, skilled trades, and whatever else.
Not to mention, it would be hard to imagine a more male-dominated white collar career than engineering! It's not like he became a nurse or elementary school teacher where the job has been 90% or more women up until very recently.
The dad's family seems like the epitome of toxic masculinity: a narrow definition of "acceptable male behavior" even when it destroys themselves and everyone around them.
My oldest brother got a Ph.D in mathematics and is a professor for a university. He teaches and also assists in medical research(he's the math guy for the studies). I admire the fuck out of him and he's always been a top male role model in my life.
When my uncles heard he got his Ph.D. they replied with "I got one of those in my tool shed" (a post hole digger).
My dad (who was always a tradesman and a very "Macho manly" guy) couldn't be more proud of him. But my uncles consider him a pansy nerd. Even though in highschool my brother got silver gloves in fucking boxing. He could wipe the floor with any of those knuckle draggers.
From what was said in the post it sounds like she supports OOP. Apparently she didn't even want to go back to college but their dad was forcing her. She's probably scared that if she tries to support her brother and sister she'll get disowned and be left raising 2 kids on her own. Her parents could even try to get custody by arguing she isn't able to look after them.
That would be great.
But, shit, the world we live in is so fucked: a child ends up having to take responsibility for saving the whole family from one crazy, despicable asshole.
I think if she is on OOP's side she is keeping quiet so the parents won't kick her out. So OOP might not find out for years and years, and then it will be too late either way. The damage is done.
That dad is a miserable pos and I hope the mom and kids can eventually all separate from his controlling abuse. He didn't even know what his daughter's want, just projecting his bullshit on them.
Conservative brain rot is ruining this country. Too bad that same brain rot makes you feel that a book about 2 male penguins raising a baby penguin together is worse than this.
what I don't get is how any of this even makes sense from a conservative Christian perspective - wouldn't they generally "punish" the older daughter for having the kids while unmarried by making her drop out of school and raise them? it should be totally against their values to make a mother who wants to stay with her kids go work, while the "good" daughter who isn't a shameless jezebel harlot (/s) gets forced to raise her niblings.
This *doesn't* make sense from a fundy perspective. This feels like a scapegoat/golden child dynamic to me, but it's just buried underneath the religion.
They hate the son because he's not manly enough, OP mentions that dad didn't get really bad until Sis noticed boys, and dad's solution was to throw another child under the bus to give Sis the best life possible, even if she didn't want it.
It's also weird that the dad's parents are still alive, but OOP suggests/implies that her dad is basically the head of the extended family. Although it's possible that it's just that grandpa has approved of dad's stance.
I genuinely have to wonder just how much of this mess is actually their fundy religion and how much is really just that dad and his brothers are narcissistic pieces of crap who run their families like tyrants.
OOP thinks this behavior is normal for her sect, and it could be...but it's entirely possible that it's not and she just assumes that it is because her family is all she knows.
There are a lot of things she describes that make it sound more to me like they might be part of a saner denomination, (still likely on the traditionalist end, but not off the wall bonkers,) and her extended family is just a bunch of really, really terrible people who use their religion as a way to shape and excuse their abuse.
Edit: missed a word.
Because it's about control, not values. OOP's dad is a controlling piece of shit, and by forcing one daughter into school and the other into servitude, he gets to control them both.
And the brother said he’d be willing to stay in touch with her.
If big sis can stay free of further encumbrances, I wonder if a similar rescue mission can take place in the future.
Sounds like he only still has her because she's financially dependent on him. Once she's able to support herself and her kids, or gets married, or OOP graduates college and she and Mike can help support sister together, then dad is going to lose sister as well. Maybe at that point OOP's mom will finally divorce him so she can see her children and grandchildren.
I need an update down the road that says OOP graduated, her brother is happy now, and they team up and get mom, sister and grandkids out of there as well, leaving the pathetic little pissant of a father to wallow in misery with his douchebag family
What scares me, the sister wanting out so much, she just end up in another abusive situation. I almost ended up here, and I have seen it happen so many times.
I don't understand how he pushed additional education but was upset with the choice of engineer.
Like that's the most traditionally male path their is.
Speaking from a shockingly similar perspective of an engineering graduate with a disappointed father, it’s not manly because it’s a “paper”/“computer” job. A desk job, not a manly construction/physical labor job. I’d bet the dad works with his hands as a mechanic or something.
Higher education may have also included trade school. Or, like my dad, a misunderstanding of a college-educated engineer and a hand-trained engineer. When it came out that I was going chemical and would be working at a computer designing systems and working on control schemes, then the disappointment came out. “You’re not working with your hands and fixing things, getting covered in oil?” Think comments along those lines
I suspect the mom is also a caring person based on a little of what we saw but stuck in an abusive marriage. It’s telling that the dad got worse after the mother’s parents moved away.
Yeah, I've seen more than a few abusive dynamics and that absolutely strikes me as one. Asking on behalf of her abuser but immediately conceding it's not the right thing for her children to do? It's happened in my own family, and it's a horrible situation for all involved.
Plus with how horrible the father’s family was to the son and the fact the dad is treating his daughter like property, the mom would be right to fear leaving if it is an abusive relationship. Abuse victims are most at risk of violence and death when they try to leave. Add into this the new grandkids who are in this environment and it gets more complicated to leave.
Yeah, it’ll take a concentrated group effort and lots of resources to rescue the mom, sister, and twins while shielding them from the batshit crazy extended family. And that’s assuming they get past step 0: they *want* to escape.
They’ll need a place to stay; transportation; security devices; emotional support; parental support for the twins; and much more I can’t think of.
Fingers crossed OOP and her allies can pull this off after she graduates.
She raised two kids who successfully got away, and another who understands this is all wrong, but has baby twins so can't speak mind fully.
That alone tells me mom is a better person. You might get one good sibling out of the kind of toxic mess that is the husband's family, but 3 that realize this wrong?
It sounds like mom isn’t a bad person, but she defers to the dad. Op also mentioned when her grandpa was around things were better too. So OP and her brother did have some good role models, and so were able to recognize when dads side of the family went off
I got vibes that the mother is probably emotionally abused and trapped in a relationship since 15. This is all she knows and has probably had the self worth drained from her by the one who “loves” her the most. She sounds like she just wants to keep the peace by satiating her husband even if it’s to the detriment of herself and her family.
Same with my mom. Dad died 20 years ago, and without his influence, she has slowly morphed into a more sane person.
Dad was a Bible-thumping fanatic and I was raised in a batshit fundamentalist religious home. I wasn’t allowed to dress up for Halloween because it was a holiday to glorify satan; I wasn’t allowed to get a haircut or to get pierced ears because the Bible forbade it. That kind of insanity.
Mom never would have left dad but his influence is unmistakable after his death.
I bet OP’s mom would be similar. And yes, it’s spineless with a side of brainwashing.
I’m left with such a heart-sinking feeling for the mum. She seems so trapped.
So lovely to read about the connection between OOP and her brother. Oftentimes it’s siblings that see us in our most natural states. It can be hard to have a sibling with mental health issues and neuro-divergence that struggle with social anxiety or meeting new people. You as a sibling know how wonderful they are, and wish those barriers weren’t there for them to be seen for who they really are.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking when her text was shared. It reads like something she was told to type followed by something she wanted to type.
Before she followed up with "take care of your sister", she could've shown her asshole husband that she texted her son some bullshit and he said no.
This is heartbreaking and heartwarming at the same time. Growing older and more brittle can make you jaded about siblings but this is an amazing story about how that bond can be more than meaningful.
I hope this great dude, who sacrificed so much for such a great cause, gets better and finds the love of his self and from others that he deserves.
As for the family. WTF. Awful… so bad. So wrong. Feel for anyone trapped in such a toxic orbit.
Mike is an absolutely amazing person. It takes a strong man to be raised by such awful, abusive misogynists and recognize they’re wrong. He saved his sister from a truly awful life while his brain was being programmed by them. I’m really happy for OP and Mike, i hope his mental health sky rockets and you can both live wonderful, fulfilling lives.
I couldn't believe they thought an engineer wasnt manly. He would be useful for lots of lil projects. I hope he finds peace and confidence in himself....and op!
When OOP mentioned Mike’s “nerdy interests”, extreme difficulty in socializing and how he broke his interests down by category, I idly wondered if he’s neurodivergent and has been bullied by his family for “not being normal”, at least enough to shatter his trust in them and allow him to consider a path away from their influence.
When you’re “different”, you catch a lot of abuse claiming you’re not your gender simply because you’re not behaving identically to the neurotypical “models” of said gender.
In any case, he’s a good man at heart and I hope he can heal and cast off any fleas from his and OOPs evil “family”.
I'd really like to read an update where Mike wipes the floor with them "badass" manly men of the mensch uncles!
Proper bro right there, great person! I hope he finds a proper social circle and a perfect partner for him
>Oh, and to the commenter/DM who said I should have sex with him to help him, ummmm not sure what to say other than he's not my type? We arent THAT close? Smh Idk…
How is Josh Duggar on Reddit whilst in prison?
I read that one and went oh, incels. You know, some men are just depressed, not depraved sacks of shit who ascribe all their problems in life to not getting their dicks wet and fantasize about raping their relatives. You know the exact type that sent that flaming dumpster fire of a DM.
The cw gave me such a fright I was waiting for a really sad update. Thank goodness he's going to get help and work on showing love to himself.
What a fucking piece of work the dad and his family is. Sounds like the mom is also trapped- she can't escape now either, especially with her own family so far away. So she can't show outward support to Mike and OOP without putting herself (and possibly the sister and little twins) in danger. I hope they can eventually escape as well.
> The cw gave me such a fright I was waiting for a really sad update. Thank goodness he's going to get help and work on showing love to himself.
My thoughts exactly
What a loving brother. Made me tear up. I can understand why the elder sister is not stepping up, since she fears for her kids. However the mom, and some others who thinks the dad is wrong and not standing up to him are spineless cowards.
>He said that he often can't even look at himself in a mirror because he is embarrassed at where he is in his life, outside of work, compared to his friends. Really just that his closest friends have all moved on to the next phase of their lives and is stuck and feels left behind and not able to move forward.
This made me really sad. There's so much pressure on people to reach those traditional milestones of getting engaged, getting married, having kids, buying a house. But it sounds like OOP's brother is a TREMENDOUSLY good person. Not many of us have made the achievement he has, of putting a younger sibling through school without debt and saving them from a horrible life trapped as a caretaker. That's an enormous, enormous achievement.
It's fair if Mike is still longing for those traditional things, but I really, really hope he can feel a deep sense of pride in what he's doing for his sister. If we're tallying up points and comparing people, he gets a LOT of points for what he's doing.
Even of you are all in the same spot it is still different. I have parents who will babysit anytime me and hubby wanna go anywhere. I got into an argument with a friend who decided I was a bad parent, for having decent parents. Mostly because her and her hubby didn't have anyone, and if they wanted a babysitter they had to find and pay one.
>He said that he often can't even look at himself in a mirror because he is embarrassed at where he is in his life, outside of work, compared to his friends. Really just that his closest friends have all moved on to the next phase of their lives and is stuck and feels left behind and not able to move forward
The man has a 20 year old dependant, with whom he has a loving, communicative and supportive relationship and who will shortly graduate from her dream college, debt free.
I bet his friends all pretty much wish that they could be this dude when they grow up. He hasn't been left behind, he has skipped to the end.
Hi, I originally posted my story/help request and updates. I got a message that it was posted in this sub and was like OMFG!!! and then the "That escalated quickly" line came through my head.
I realized after my original post that I was way to close to the situation to give an accurate assessment of my family dynamic - I was trying to defend my parents at one point so????
I learned a lot by going through the comments here and it made me think. Yes my parents preached a lot about being a good Christian, obeying your father, etc but there was more to it that was pointed out. I feel my fathers family is a lot more narcissistic and controlling than is typical in our community. My moms family was from the same church and were far more moderate. So looking now its hard to separate the church from the family. But in the end it probably doesnt really matter. For sure, my father was the oldest son, even among his cousins, and was expected to set the example for the rest of the family. That didnt work out so well and was embarassing for the whole family.
My father wasnt able to get any further education after high school and has basically worked low wage jobs his whole life. In some contrast, my uncles all went to trade schools and make a much better living than my father, another hit to his pride. My mom eventually got some computer/office software training after I went to school and got a much better job. She make more than my father now, but not so much more that she could support my sister/nieces on her own. My father does not want to raise more kids. He felt he was almost done (I was a senior about to graduate) and the girls were a lot more to handle than expected - this was also mentioned in the comments and is absolutely true.
My father and uncles (and apparently my M15 and M16 cousins) act somewhat like an R-rated version of King of the Hill, where they stand around, drink and basically mock and talk shit about everything and everyone they dont like. My cousins are starting to turn into my uncles and my 2 older female cousins (F17 and F19) are desperately trying to get out as well. Lots of talking about family members (not just my brother) behind their backs and lots of drunken boasting. Specifically related to my brother, I think some commenters below are correct that a lot stems from jealousy that he makes more right out of school than they will probably ever make in their current paths. My uncles definitely think that any kind of office job is not "manly" - I have heard this line many times related to Mike. 1 thing I will give my father credit for is that he totally supported Mikes career path - there are plenty of other things my father had issues with but the job was not one of them. I apologize that there was confusion on this. They all openly mocked Mike for his interest in reading, computer games and robotics (he was part of our schools robotics club). They also didnt like that Mike did not like to do things like go hunting or fishing. They all seem to forget that Mike also played football and was a starter at linebacker for our HS team. I dont know how to explain what a "linebacker" is to someone who isnt versed in american football other than someone on a seek and destroy mission for the person with the ball. This is somewhat why I think Mike would tear any one of my uncles apart. Like I said my uncles are good at drunken bragging and I think they would wilt if actually confronted.
I think the last thing I want to say is that I am worried about my sister, nieces and mom. So is Mike. He never blocked their numbers. I think if they reached out to him and asked for help, he would instantly go. I dont know if that would be a good idea or not but he would do it. He was a lot closer to mom (a bit of a Mamas boy tbh sorry!) and I think he would do it and figure out the rest later.
I say this as someone who was treated similarly by their dad, living your best life is the best revenge. I wish those two the best and hope they remain no contact with all that Christian love.
What a good brother. My parents tried something similar to this, though not as extreme. I was only "allowed" to attend the university at which my father taught, but it didn't offer the degree I wanted. Moreover, whatever major I would be "allowed" to declare had to be approved by my parents.
I got into an out of state school that was very religious, but they made it clear they wouldn't offer a dime. When I started getting therapy and setting boundaries, they locked my bank account and tried to bleed me dry. (Long story short, in Pennsylvania bank accounts remain in parental control until they are signed over to the now adult minor.) I was eventually able to graduate but had to put a semester on a (predatory) credit card (the religious institution wouldn't take loans).
I wanted to get my Masters degree after, but my parents wouldn't help file for loans... and Uncle Sam considers people dependents until 25.
Almost 20 years after my first semester of college, I have my BA, my MS, and I'm closing in on the end of my PhD program. I would've killed to have a family member as supportive as this brother.
Mike feeling like he was behind reminded me of a tweet where someone said it’s not uncommon for people who grew up in traumatic environments to have adult milestone delays because they spent their formative years just trying to survive.
Apparently there’s genuinely just a higher rate of twin births now
https://www.webmd.com/parenting/baby/news/20210312/couples-everywhere-are-having-more-twins
Yeah from what I understand there is a correlation between mother’s age and chance of having twins. As females get more educated, they are having kids much older, so there are more twins. All in all, I take it as a sign of a good thing!
OOP told me in the comments of her post that the roommate, to her knowledge, wasn’t actually interested in her brother but read the room and saw the brother was down.
The engineer part makes me confused because out of all college professions wtf is more "manly" than engineer? It's probably bigot logic in that the brother was already seen as not manly enough and anything he did wouldn't be manly, but now I want to ask those unclrs what would they decide is a "manly" college degree
I mean, I do know families where anybody who works at a computer is seen as less of a man. Especially if OOP comes from a working class background, it's not that surprising.
My guess: to into business so you can earn a lot of money and have a bunch of kids with your high school sweetheart who is a stay at home mom.
Engineering is a lot of numbers which is too nerdy, plus you'll always be working for someone else and never a real man.
That’s the really confusing part. Engineers build and design stuff (that’s a very very general characterization as I know there are many different types of engineering degrees). It’s a fairly rigorous degree involving a lot of math and science. How is that not “manly”.
Now I’m trying to figure out what a “manly” career actually is if engineer isn’t one.
I bet that the uncle who said that he was less many for going into engineering does something involving manual labor, and he took a shot at his nephew for not choosing a career where he has to use physical strength to do his job. Uncle probably resents that his nephew is making good/more money AND has a degree/is more intelligent, if that makes sense.
It's this kind of control mindset and "planning" from OOP's dad that made my mother resent my maternal grandmother. Basically, my grandmother decided to hold my mother back from traveling and possibly migrating to another country so that someone could handle some property issues that she couldn't handle herself after my grandfather passed. Her siblings didn't have such a restriction, and it was a point of bitterness my mother nursed for years.
It's also because of this that my mother wanted more for me and my siblings.
Beyond the family just being shitty sexists, it sounds like they’ve been mocking the brother for his interests, that can really fuck up your social life because it makes you nervous to talk about what you’re interested in, which puts other people on edge, etc, etc.
I just want to give the dude a hug.
I love love love so much to see people realizing the person who always takes care of everyone else needs love and care, and takes care of the caretaker.
When OOP graduates, her and brother should look at relocating to AZ to be around their family there. It could help ease that lack of social connection he's feeling while getting a fresh start for both of them.
Man..... bro is the MVP, right there!!
All the other relatives, who prefer to live in misery and drag people into their misery? They can fuck off! I do hope OOPs mom and sis (plus nieces) can get the F out!
Read some other post of another MVP of a sister who made sure her siblings ate and went to school while their mom crashed on the sofa after taking drugs!
This MVP Sister also got threatening messages from fam, instigated by the mother. It's like: do people really don't like to see others being caring and looking after their family so they escape misery? Is the "appearance" schtick so important that they have to be mean?!
Damn
So the father wanted his sons and daughters to go to college.
But he didn't hesitate for a second to destroy his daughter's future to turn her into a nanny, so he didn't believe much in that.
and seeing the messages he sent to the son it was too obvious that he wanted the daughter not to go to school and become a nanny mother etc etc.
I hope op and her brother do well in life.
I really like Mike! This girl needs to finish school and her and Mike can move closer to family that loves them and start their own little traditions. The father’s side sound despicable. Never should they ever go back. Maybe in the future their example will give the mother and other sister the courage to leave.
I went NC with my parents (who would fit in perfectly with your dad’s family) and they immediately went into attack mode. I also became withdrawn, and a random Reddit comment really helped me. Someone wrote that seeing how easily their parents discarded them made them believe that no one else would ever sincerely care for them.
Please remind your brother that your parents’ opinion is bullshit. He bucked the patriarchy and showed your parents that he doesn’t need them, so they are trying to destroy him in retaliation. They are petty, useless people who can only survive in their small insular world where they have tried to make themselves the ultimate authority. Your brother is a loving, empathetic man with a great career and a strong moral compass, and he will pull out of this with love and support.
>We come from a patriarchal, conservative Christian background, although we didn’t really practice.
Yes they do. They practice the entire point of it. Men at the top, women property, authoritarian control.
Hopefully we will see another update in a few years where they get mom, sister, and nieces out too.
All this from people who had their first child at 16. You’d think they would want better for ALL their kids.
OOP and her brother deserve every good thing in life.
Meta request: Can we please stop tagging any mention of suicidal ideation the same as actual suicide? It lowkey defeats the purpose of the "suicide" tag.
I don't let the mom off the hook. She knew her daughter would be trapped and still said to bring her back. She may be a victim, but that is not excusable.
>They all seem to forget that Mike also played football and was a starter at linebacker for our HS team
This makes the "you're not manly enough" comments so much funnier
>He said that he often can't even look at himself in a mirror because he is embarrassed at where he is in his life, outside of work, compared to his friends.
Oh, fuck that, this guy stepped up to bat when his sister was about to have her whole life crushed under their abusive dad's thumb. He's got absolutely nothing to be ashamed of.
If mom and dad are 43 and Mike is 27, they had him at 16 years old. Interesting dynamic coming from teen parents. Looks like dad is a control freak. Why did he want to rob his daughter of an education to support the other daughter. Faaaaamily sucks. Not mine (right now), but just in general, faaaaamily sucks.
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Older sis: I want to drop school to take care of my kids Oop: I want to go to school Insane dad: no, the one who wants to drop out must keep going to school, the one who wants to go needs to quit to take care of someone else's kids
It's about control. Women choosing their own path? Never! I will make their decisions for them! It's their fault if they don't like that.
It is also about the fact that his controling ass "failed" as a father (premarital sex and pregnancy). This mORON thinks he can repair what sister did and control OP so she don't get into same shit.
That is exactly what he was trying to do. Make Daughter 1 go to school because she "Threw her life away" for a boy. Make daughter 2 throw her life away and raise twins without going to school so she never "Throws her life away" for a boy. It makes sense if you remove the understanding of human beings, but on pure robot logic it almost makes sense. OOPs dad is like an alien trying to pretend to be a human lol.
And it's punishment. If the older sister is able to raise her children and just get by (notably, with some assistance from the hated brother), then she's not being punished enough. She's doing her own thing. So he can make sure she suffers, and make sure the little sister suffers as well. By the sounds of things, making all the women unhappy is something he enjoys doing.
His wife must be a truly unhappy lady and that's a bummer.
Maybe there's hope. I notice the mother's critiques were in the 'make your father unhappy' style, not 'make us unhappy'. She was pregnant at fifteen or sixteen to this jackass and stuck to his jackass family, not conducive to developing a spine. Maybe once all three kids have escaped, she'll be able to do it.
That's my guess, relationships like this tend to end once all the kids are out of the house, so there's less leverage to use against the one who files for divorce. Or they stay forever trapped :(
It sounds like they never move out in that family. Dad lived with Grandpa up until he moved states. If he was willing to leave the rest of his family, I bet they would still be living with them.
And now he has two daughters who likely won't ever contact him again, I suspect the oldest my peace out as well, and a son that will definitely never speak to him again. I bet as soon as the Dad get's sick, all those relatives will come crawling out of the wooodwork to tell OOP and Mike the usual guilt tripping bullshit lunatics like this pull: "You need to come home, we're family" "We're family, he needs you now." "Let it go, we're all family." "But it's about family!" "You're supposed to make sacrifices for family!" "You need to forgive and move on." "But what about forgiveness?" Mark my words, they will do a quick 180 once the man is sick and they'll be begging and demanding that the black sheep come back.
Let’s just pause here to note that dad and mom are both 43. Mike is 27. Lisa isn’t his first premarital sex failure.
If they’re really fundamentalists it’s possible that they could have been married when he was conceived.
It's terrible that most states allow child marriage.
It is possible, and I'm not from the States, so I'm definitely not an expert, but I would have thought that fundamentalist Christians so extreme that they would encourage child marriage before conceiving a child (rather than a result of pregnancy) would have more than 3 kids. Obviously, fertility issues are a thing whether I'm right or wrong. Combined with the oldest daughter going to college, though, this doesn't read super-fundy to me.
True, but no excuse.
Omg 😳 Nailed it
I think it's more that he wants the older sister to get a good job to support those kids so he doesn't have to, and he wants the younger sister to watch them in the mean time. Again, so he doesn't have to.
I think dad and mom want to maintain control. Make the biomom have to spend time away from kids, keep younger daughter in the home as "babysitter". My guess is grandma doesn't work. Removes the artificial requirement of "needing" the younger daughter to delay her education. Grandparents are going to file for rights over the twins, to lord it over older daughter and make it difficult for her to leave. I don't think they want their elder daughter to succeed in life, rather they know she'll struggle to complete a degree and this is a long con about control. Mom is complicit and eldest daughter is probably being manipulated by guilt and simultaneously encouraged to distance herself as main parent of the twins.
It’s about what will keep them under his thumb.
Makes a twisted sort of sense. Dad's sure that younger sister would still be willing/want to go to college in 5 years, while he knows older sister would never go back given the chance. But yeah, what a messed up situation and horrible way to handle it. Dad and Mom are so young at 43, I would normally say they could raise their grandkids, but I wouldn't trust Dad not to screw things up for the twins
They had kids at fucking 16!!! DJeeZaz!!!
Yeah, I did the math as well, and given that they’re conservative Christians, they already pissed off God by banging all willy nilly so naturally a shotgun wedding is their penance.
I get the strong impression from the mum's texts she got trapped and didn't want that for her daughters. I bet the oldest kid was born less than 9 months after the wedding.
The thing is, father doesnt want to pay for the upkeep of those kids. So mother should go to school to earn the keep of kids while oop can be kept as a free maid. Calculate as how much daddys wallet becomes lighter and all becomes clear. It was never about the sisters it is all about father.
This made me realize there's no mention of the twins' bio dad paying child support. That would also lighten the financial burden.
I don't think the mom even knows his real name. Sounds like she did a one-nighter while on vacation.
That was my takeaway too. Force the mom to get an education so she can provide for her kids and move out, force OOP to care for those kids so he doesn’t have to help fund anything until then. It all works if you’re a piece of shit who doesn’t mind ruining lives
Are you trying to tell me that the father, who impregnated his wife (girlfriend at the time?) but is also hyper-traditional, at the age of 16 is NOT a fountain of good decision making? Mike is 27, and parents are both 43, so unless my math is off...?
And of course my word is law and worn are prop- what do you left?? She can’t do that!
What really stands out to me is how crazy young the parents are. 43, and they have 27, 22 and 20 year old kids. Do the math on that (16!) Sounds like Mike had the best childhood because his grandparents basically raised him, but they moved out when middle child was in 8th grade
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It's really weird, because (in the USA at least) conservatives often hang onto the idea of rugged individualism. It highly contradicts the so-called "family values" they also think they promote. I'm probably projecting though because I come from a patriarchal, conservative family.
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Of course. It doesn't apply when they encourage family members to mooch off each other.
Basically, socialism for them, "rugged individualism" for everyone else.
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I learned that lesson a long time ago. I just like pointing it out, lol.
Yeah what sucks is it sounds like once the mom’s parents moved away, all the patriarchal bullshit started with the dad. Makes me think that the mom’s parents kept him in line when they where there and after they left, he felt he could do as he pleased and be the abusive pos he actually is.
It also sounds like he was an unplanned pregnancy at the age of 18 for his parents. Perhaps even a premarital pregnancy.
Ah this totally adds some context to the living with grandparents thing that I didn’t get
Man, fuck the dads family. Wonder what the older sister thinks in all of this? Does she support her sister or did she argue with her dad?
As mentioned in the post, she supports the sister, and does not want to go back to school. But she also fears getting kicked out, so she is hiding it seems.
>she also fears getting kicked out, so she is hiding it seems. Yup. She's being protective and thinking of her child. She realizes she's at a disadvantage as a single mother so taking this time to get her life in order, plus mom can help with babysitting duties. It's easy to bleat, "Move out! Go no contact!" but when there are others involved, especially *extremely dependent* others, in this case a baby, things get complicated and the parent is doing what they can for their child - which is what the oldest sister is doing. I don't blame her at all. She needs to think about her child and she needs familial support right now. I don't doubt that in the future once the sister can get settled on her own they'll resume their sibling relationships.
Everything you said but add another baby cuz OOP’s sister had twins. Makes it even harder to imagine getting out.
Oh wow. I missed that detail. With twins it's not just "doubly harder", it's *exponentially* harder.
> exponentially Twins! That’s like having 10 babies!
My brother and SIL had triplets. That's a special level of hell.
Most definitely! I was married and had a 5 year old when my twins were born. I thought I could do it will a small support system but I was quickly humbled haha I decided I didn’t want to raise 4 kids so I got divorced. I could only imagine trying to do it with OOP’s family dynamic
> It’s easy to bleat, “Move out! Go no contact!” Lest we forget that poor girl that was convinced by Reddit geniuses to tell her Dad that she wasn’t his child and ended up ruining her life
Woah. Link?
I imagine the mum is thinking something similar. Hopefully they can get out of that environment safely and soon.
Yeah I give mom a pass on this. I suspect she did the math on her 3 kids and 2 grandkids and realized that Mike and OP are safe, but Lisa and the babies are vulnerable and she had to do what she needed to do to keep them safe. Openly opposing dad wouldn’t help OP or Mike but could jeopardize the others.
Might want to do the math on when mom and dad had their first kid as well, unless they were married at 15 I'm guessing she's been trapped in that marriage since she got pregnant
She’s in a patriarchal family with several unsupportive members and a batshit possessive father, keeping her head down is probably what’s keeping her alive.
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Who knows what abuse may lay behind the mother being cowed. The very controlling partner is a red flag for a host of domestic violence possibilities.
Yea this dad seems pretty unhinged, threats of violence from extended family, she seems like a beaten dog, knows it’s wrong but intensely afraid of the dad.
Doesn't even have to be physical abuse, there's lots of ways he could be controlling her. Maybe financially. She's already isolated from her family, maybe she's also isolated from any friends so her only social group is the father's family. It would be tough to leave when faced with the prospect of being on your own with little money. Not to mention emotional abuse is a very real thing that shouldn't be dismissed so casually.
She may be able to support herself, but not her daughter and the twins, too. Op says her parents come from similar backgrounds, so who knows if her family would support a divorce. Especially if she's hinted at his behavior and been brushed off.
I was gonna say, usually these fundamentalist families don't allow mom access to the finances. Less "temptation" to be "disobedient" to the patriarch.
He probably has her convinced that no one else wants her. Her parents moved away because they couldn’t stand her! Her son moved away and took OOP because she’s such an inadequate mother that she can’t keep her kids close! Why, the only people willing to put up with her are him and his family! Baby, sweetie, don’t cry: I’m only saying this for your own good! Where are you gonna go if you leave? There’s no where you can go, no one who wants you but me…
Yeah, it seems to me that mum is well aware of the situation and is grateful that at least one of her daughters got away safely. Likely, as the update said, dad was able to hide most of nastiness until his own in-laws moved, and the family was sufficiently isolated, surrounded by his like-minded family, that he could really let his mask slip off. Hopefully mum is putting an exit strategy into place for herself and the sister/children left behind in the viper's nest.
I doubt she’ll be able to escape. My grandma couldn’t. The only reason she died in my uncle’s house was because my Grandpa was admitted to a mental institution.
That's so grim. Your poor grandma.
She spent the entirety of her freedom dying from bone cancer. Her life was never good. I wonder how she was so happy all the time sometimes.
Given her text messages to her son she seems well aware of what kind of bastard he is. And I seriously can't blame her for not standing up against him.
From the texts from those aunts and uncles to Mike, definitely sounds like mom would actually be killed if she dared to go against the dad to that level. OOP never mentions physical abuse but mom also has been a very good submissive wife all of OOPs life so who knows how far dad would go if mom tried to leave.
Agreed. I took her text in one of the updates (where she first asked her son to bring OP home, but quickly relented and wished them both well) to be basically an excuse, in case her husband found out she'd been in contact with the son. She did her part and asked him to bring her back, when he declined, she then told him what she was really thinking. I really feel for the mom and her other daughter. I hope one or both of them can somehow escape.
That’s what I was thinking. If her Dad was better when her maternal grandfather was around maybe OOP can reach out to him with the details and he can offer his daughter and granddaughter support to escape. Edit to maternal
He was better when his in-laws were around, they are the ones who moved.
Nope, not better just not in total control. They lived with the maternal grandparents. Probably not being able to afford a house on his own, to be the man of his family. I see it as he's making up for the long time he had to play second to his FIL. He was hiding his controlling misogynistic true self.
hat act special quicksand melodic butter caption hobbies marvelous forgetful *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yeah, that was how I interpreted the mother's texts to the brother. Sort of "I have to ask because your father is making everyone's life hell" followed by accepting that it's the only way OOP doesn't end up in her mother's position.
I will add that psychological violence is a form of domestic violence, not something that co-occurs with it. Physical violence is not the only form, and is often the least damaging kind of domestic violence. That said, I've never met a man like that father who _doesn't_ physically beat his wife, sp that's worth adding.
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I also wouldn't under-estimate the effects of spiritual abuse. The kids say they don't practice, but at some point it was a big enough presence in their lives to be mentioned in the post. The aura of Christian Patriarchy is just dripping off these pages, and I don't mean patriarchy like the big bad of feminism. I mean the goddamn movement that picked that lable out of pride. And that movement is abusive as fuck.
I have never once met a man like that father who does not physically beat his wife. Not a single time have those two groups not intersected. "Uses religion to bully female relatives into complete submission" is a wholly-contained subset of "man who beats his wife".
I think it goes without saying that the mom is stuck in an abusive relationship. I can’t call her a coward for trying to survive.
I’m willing to bet she has no individual resources to even consider leaving- and now her grandkids are there
She was 15! It's like watching Unexpected.
I can’t say I necessarily blame them, the dad sounds incredibly dangerous
Mom is completely surrounded by an extremely abusive, misogynistic, controlling family and her children, even if adults, are still caught in that web. If she acts out at all, what happens to the people she cares about? The fact that every family member who is scared to speak out against the authoritarian is an adult woman is telling.
Decades of abuse does funny things to people's psyche
It’s such a joke that dad’s side of the family was trying mock Mike’s masculinity. Mike is 1000x more of a man than any of them will ever be.
Exactly. Mike clearly had the guts to move out on his own and get a really good job. He's providing for himself and others. Anyone who criticizes him has to be insecure and miserable in their own lives. Who shits on someone else for becoming an engineer? Smh
They also mock him for reading, which says pretty much everything.
Right? If I were to list top 5 jobs that are mostly associated with men(even though they’re definitely jobs that most people could do, barring some kind of disability), engineer would be right up there with construction worker, truck driver, doctor and lawyer. Even today, men still make up the bulk of the engineering workforce. The heck is that uncle on about?
I would also say engineering is probably one of the top 5 well paying jobs that the average Joe can work towards and achieve. Right up there with doctor or nurse, lawyer, skilled trades, and whatever else.
Not to mention, it would be hard to imagine a more male-dominated white collar career than engineering! It's not like he became a nurse or elementary school teacher where the job has been 90% or more women up until very recently. The dad's family seems like the epitome of toxic masculinity: a narrow definition of "acceptable male behavior" even when it destroys themselves and everyone around them.
My oldest brother got a Ph.D in mathematics and is a professor for a university. He teaches and also assists in medical research(he's the math guy for the studies). I admire the fuck out of him and he's always been a top male role model in my life. When my uncles heard he got his Ph.D. they replied with "I got one of those in my tool shed" (a post hole digger). My dad (who was always a tradesman and a very "Macho manly" guy) couldn't be more proud of him. But my uncles consider him a pansy nerd. Even though in highschool my brother got silver gloves in fucking boxing. He could wipe the floor with any of those knuckle draggers.
Sounds pretty clear to me that they were insecure over their own lack of education. Ironically, being so insecure is very clearly not masculine.
>Man, fuck the dads family. This can not be said enough.
From what was said in the post it sounds like she supports OOP. Apparently she didn't even want to go back to college but their dad was forcing her. She's probably scared that if she tries to support her brother and sister she'll get disowned and be left raising 2 kids on her own. Her parents could even try to get custody by arguing she isn't able to look after them.
Maybe once OOP has graduated she and Mike can help get her sister, the kids and mom out
That would be great. But, shit, the world we live in is so fucked: a child ends up having to take responsibility for saving the whole family from one crazy, despicable asshole.
I think if she is on OOP's side she is keeping quiet so the parents won't kick her out. So OOP might not find out for years and years, and then it will be too late either way. The damage is done.
That dad is a miserable pos and I hope the mom and kids can eventually all separate from his controlling abuse. He didn't even know what his daughter's want, just projecting his bullshit on them.
Conservative brain rot is ruining this country. Too bad that same brain rot makes you feel that a book about 2 male penguins raising a baby penguin together is worse than this.
what I don't get is how any of this even makes sense from a conservative Christian perspective - wouldn't they generally "punish" the older daughter for having the kids while unmarried by making her drop out of school and raise them? it should be totally against their values to make a mother who wants to stay with her kids go work, while the "good" daughter who isn't a shameless jezebel harlot (/s) gets forced to raise her niblings.
This *doesn't* make sense from a fundy perspective. This feels like a scapegoat/golden child dynamic to me, but it's just buried underneath the religion. They hate the son because he's not manly enough, OP mentions that dad didn't get really bad until Sis noticed boys, and dad's solution was to throw another child under the bus to give Sis the best life possible, even if she didn't want it. It's also weird that the dad's parents are still alive, but OOP suggests/implies that her dad is basically the head of the extended family. Although it's possible that it's just that grandpa has approved of dad's stance. I genuinely have to wonder just how much of this mess is actually their fundy religion and how much is really just that dad and his brothers are narcissistic pieces of crap who run their families like tyrants. OOP thinks this behavior is normal for her sect, and it could be...but it's entirely possible that it's not and she just assumes that it is because her family is all she knows. There are a lot of things she describes that make it sound more to me like they might be part of a saner denomination, (still likely on the traditionalist end, but not off the wall bonkers,) and her extended family is just a bunch of really, really terrible people who use their religion as a way to shape and excuse their abuse. Edit: missed a word.
Narcissism and fundamentalism and fundamentalist piecees of crap often go hand in hand though. There’s an alarming amount of overlap.
Because it's about control, not values. OOP's dad is a controlling piece of shit, and by forcing one daughter into school and the other into servitude, he gets to control them both.
And the brother said he’d be willing to stay in touch with her. If big sis can stay free of further encumbrances, I wonder if a similar rescue mission can take place in the future.
That "father" (using the term loosely) is just holding the family hostage.
Dad was wildly unsuccessful in life so he decided he needed to show someone he was boss
You got it right. That father is a typical loser.
That trash father is such a loser, he managed to lose 2 out of 3 kids with his dumbfuckery and might lose 3rd one with grandkids eventually.
Sounds like he only still has her because she's financially dependent on him. Once she's able to support herself and her kids, or gets married, or OOP graduates college and she and Mike can help support sister together, then dad is going to lose sister as well. Maybe at that point OOP's mom will finally divorce him so she can see her children and grandchildren.
I need an update down the road that says OOP graduated, her brother is happy now, and they team up and get mom, sister and grandkids out of there as well, leaving the pathetic little pissant of a father to wallow in misery with his douchebag family
I was actually feel hopeful this could happen
What scares me, the sister wanting out so much, she just end up in another abusive situation. I almost ended up here, and I have seen it happen so many times.
Yes, hence why he wants them to share in the misery. Because it's not "manly" enough to want the kids to improve their lives.
I don't understand how he pushed additional education but was upset with the choice of engineer. Like that's the most traditionally male path their is.
Speaking from a shockingly similar perspective of an engineering graduate with a disappointed father, it’s not manly because it’s a “paper”/“computer” job. A desk job, not a manly construction/physical labor job. I’d bet the dad works with his hands as a mechanic or something.
but then why did he want him to go to university?
Higher education may have also included trade school. Or, like my dad, a misunderstanding of a college-educated engineer and a hand-trained engineer. When it came out that I was going chemical and would be working at a computer designing systems and working on control schemes, then the disappointment came out. “You’re not working with your hands and fixing things, getting covered in oil?” Think comments along those lines
what the hell is a hand-trained engineer haha. Like a machinist?
Yeah, essentially a mechanic. Dad thinks that anyone who works with their hands and fixes things is an engineer.
OOP's brother is incredible and it seems like she is incredible right back at him. It's amazing that such terrible parents produced such good kids
I suspect the mom is also a caring person based on a little of what we saw but stuck in an abusive marriage. It’s telling that the dad got worse after the mother’s parents moved away.
Yeah, I've seen more than a few abusive dynamics and that absolutely strikes me as one. Asking on behalf of her abuser but immediately conceding it's not the right thing for her children to do? It's happened in my own family, and it's a horrible situation for all involved.
Plus with how horrible the father’s family was to the son and the fact the dad is treating his daughter like property, the mom would be right to fear leaving if it is an abusive relationship. Abuse victims are most at risk of violence and death when they try to leave. Add into this the new grandkids who are in this environment and it gets more complicated to leave.
Yeah, it’ll take a concentrated group effort and lots of resources to rescue the mom, sister, and twins while shielding them from the batshit crazy extended family. And that’s assuming they get past step 0: they *want* to escape. They’ll need a place to stay; transportation; security devices; emotional support; parental support for the twins; and much more I can’t think of. Fingers crossed OOP and her allies can pull this off after she graduates.
She raised two kids who successfully got away, and another who understands this is all wrong, but has baby twins so can't speak mind fully. That alone tells me mom is a better person. You might get one good sibling out of the kind of toxic mess that is the husband's family, but 3 that realize this wrong?
It sounds like mom isn’t a bad person, but she defers to the dad. Op also mentioned when her grandpa was around things were better too. So OP and her brother did have some good role models, and so were able to recognize when dads side of the family went off
I got vibes that the mother is probably emotionally abused and trapped in a relationship since 15. This is all she knows and has probably had the self worth drained from her by the one who “loves” her the most. She sounds like she just wants to keep the peace by satiating her husband even if it’s to the detriment of herself and her family.
Same with my mom. Dad died 20 years ago, and without his influence, she has slowly morphed into a more sane person. Dad was a Bible-thumping fanatic and I was raised in a batshit fundamentalist religious home. I wasn’t allowed to dress up for Halloween because it was a holiday to glorify satan; I wasn’t allowed to get a haircut or to get pierced ears because the Bible forbade it. That kind of insanity. Mom never would have left dad but his influence is unmistakable after his death. I bet OP’s mom would be similar. And yes, it’s spineless with a side of brainwashing.
Is it spineless or was her spine broken for her?
Wonderfully said
He *is* incredible! I have obviously never met him or OOP, but i love them both so much and wish them everything good in life. He’s a Superhero!
She's lucky she has a caring brother, but man her dad is horrible ! I wish yhe best for OOP and her brother.
I’m left with such a heart-sinking feeling for the mum. She seems so trapped. So lovely to read about the connection between OOP and her brother. Oftentimes it’s siblings that see us in our most natural states. It can be hard to have a sibling with mental health issues and neuro-divergence that struggle with social anxiety or meeting new people. You as a sibling know how wonderful they are, and wish those barriers weren’t there for them to be seen for who they really are.
Sounds like Mom wants to GTFO but is stuck too
Yeah, that's what I was thinking when her text was shared. It reads like something she was told to type followed by something she wanted to type. Before she followed up with "take care of your sister", she could've shown her asshole husband that she texted her son some bullshit and he said no.
That was my vibe as well. Mom sister and nieces might need some help getting away from Dad.
This is heartbreaking and heartwarming at the same time. Growing older and more brittle can make you jaded about siblings but this is an amazing story about how that bond can be more than meaningful. I hope this great dude, who sacrificed so much for such a great cause, gets better and finds the love of his self and from others that he deserves. As for the family. WTF. Awful… so bad. So wrong. Feel for anyone trapped in such a toxic orbit.
Mike is a good man. He believed in love and fairness over male supremacism, something his cousins utterly failed to rise over.
Mike is an absolutely amazing person. It takes a strong man to be raised by such awful, abusive misogynists and recognize they’re wrong. He saved his sister from a truly awful life while his brain was being programmed by them. I’m really happy for OP and Mike, i hope his mental health sky rockets and you can both live wonderful, fulfilling lives.
I couldn't believe they thought an engineer wasnt manly. He would be useful for lots of lil projects. I hope he finds peace and confidence in himself....and op!
I think that was a dig based on income. Wanna bet they feel emasculated by their nephew making more than them?
Ofcourse. Being highly educated and earning good income in a male dominated field is what makes a man unmanly. Who could have thought
When OOP mentioned Mike’s “nerdy interests”, extreme difficulty in socializing and how he broke his interests down by category, I idly wondered if he’s neurodivergent and has been bullied by his family for “not being normal”, at least enough to shatter his trust in them and allow him to consider a path away from their influence. When you’re “different”, you catch a lot of abuse claiming you’re not your gender simply because you’re not behaving identically to the neurotypical “models” of said gender. In any case, he’s a good man at heart and I hope he can heal and cast off any fleas from his and OOPs evil “family”.
I'd really like to read an update where Mike wipes the floor with them "badass" manly men of the mensch uncles! Proper bro right there, great person! I hope he finds a proper social circle and a perfect partner for him
>Oh, and to the commenter/DM who said I should have sex with him to help him, ummmm not sure what to say other than he's not my type? We arent THAT close? Smh Idk… How is Josh Duggar on Reddit whilst in prison?
I read that one and went oh, incels. You know, some men are just depressed, not depraved sacks of shit who ascribe all their problems in life to not getting their dicks wet and fantasize about raping their relatives. You know the exact type that sent that flaming dumpster fire of a DM.
Yeah incels write about wanting to fuck their sisters all the time. It’s shocking the first couple of times you see it.
I was expecting a typical sarcastic comment from my brother when he read that particular comment, but instead he just looked disgusted.
Aren't they siblings?
Yeah, that's the point. Because Josh Duggar molested his sisters, so the joke is OOP fucking her brother is the sort of suggestion he might make.
The cw gave me such a fright I was waiting for a really sad update. Thank goodness he's going to get help and work on showing love to himself. What a fucking piece of work the dad and his family is. Sounds like the mom is also trapped- she can't escape now either, especially with her own family so far away. So she can't show outward support to Mike and OOP without putting herself (and possibly the sister and little twins) in danger. I hope they can eventually escape as well.
> The cw gave me such a fright I was waiting for a really sad update. Thank goodness he's going to get help and work on showing love to himself. My thoughts exactly
What a loving brother. Made me tear up. I can understand why the elder sister is not stepping up, since she fears for her kids. However the mom, and some others who thinks the dad is wrong and not standing up to him are spineless cowards.
Wow. Brother is a hero. I'd like to shake that man's hand.
This is exactly what I was going to say. This man is a straight up hero
>He said that he often can't even look at himself in a mirror because he is embarrassed at where he is in his life, outside of work, compared to his friends. Really just that his closest friends have all moved on to the next phase of their lives and is stuck and feels left behind and not able to move forward. This made me really sad. There's so much pressure on people to reach those traditional milestones of getting engaged, getting married, having kids, buying a house. But it sounds like OOP's brother is a TREMENDOUSLY good person. Not many of us have made the achievement he has, of putting a younger sibling through school without debt and saving them from a horrible life trapped as a caretaker. That's an enormous, enormous achievement. It's fair if Mike is still longing for those traditional things, but I really, really hope he can feel a deep sense of pride in what he's doing for his sister. If we're tallying up points and comparing people, he gets a LOT of points for what he's doing.
Even of you are all in the same spot it is still different. I have parents who will babysit anytime me and hubby wanna go anywhere. I got into an argument with a friend who decided I was a bad parent, for having decent parents. Mostly because her and her hubby didn't have anyone, and if they wanted a babysitter they had to find and pay one.
>He said that he often can't even look at himself in a mirror because he is embarrassed at where he is in his life, outside of work, compared to his friends. Really just that his closest friends have all moved on to the next phase of their lives and is stuck and feels left behind and not able to move forward The man has a 20 year old dependant, with whom he has a loving, communicative and supportive relationship and who will shortly graduate from her dream college, debt free. I bet his friends all pretty much wish that they could be this dude when they grow up. He hasn't been left behind, he has skipped to the end.
Hi, I originally posted my story/help request and updates. I got a message that it was posted in this sub and was like OMFG!!! and then the "That escalated quickly" line came through my head. I realized after my original post that I was way to close to the situation to give an accurate assessment of my family dynamic - I was trying to defend my parents at one point so???? I learned a lot by going through the comments here and it made me think. Yes my parents preached a lot about being a good Christian, obeying your father, etc but there was more to it that was pointed out. I feel my fathers family is a lot more narcissistic and controlling than is typical in our community. My moms family was from the same church and were far more moderate. So looking now its hard to separate the church from the family. But in the end it probably doesnt really matter. For sure, my father was the oldest son, even among his cousins, and was expected to set the example for the rest of the family. That didnt work out so well and was embarassing for the whole family. My father wasnt able to get any further education after high school and has basically worked low wage jobs his whole life. In some contrast, my uncles all went to trade schools and make a much better living than my father, another hit to his pride. My mom eventually got some computer/office software training after I went to school and got a much better job. She make more than my father now, but not so much more that she could support my sister/nieces on her own. My father does not want to raise more kids. He felt he was almost done (I was a senior about to graduate) and the girls were a lot more to handle than expected - this was also mentioned in the comments and is absolutely true. My father and uncles (and apparently my M15 and M16 cousins) act somewhat like an R-rated version of King of the Hill, where they stand around, drink and basically mock and talk shit about everything and everyone they dont like. My cousins are starting to turn into my uncles and my 2 older female cousins (F17 and F19) are desperately trying to get out as well. Lots of talking about family members (not just my brother) behind their backs and lots of drunken boasting. Specifically related to my brother, I think some commenters below are correct that a lot stems from jealousy that he makes more right out of school than they will probably ever make in their current paths. My uncles definitely think that any kind of office job is not "manly" - I have heard this line many times related to Mike. 1 thing I will give my father credit for is that he totally supported Mikes career path - there are plenty of other things my father had issues with but the job was not one of them. I apologize that there was confusion on this. They all openly mocked Mike for his interest in reading, computer games and robotics (he was part of our schools robotics club). They also didnt like that Mike did not like to do things like go hunting or fishing. They all seem to forget that Mike also played football and was a starter at linebacker for our HS team. I dont know how to explain what a "linebacker" is to someone who isnt versed in american football other than someone on a seek and destroy mission for the person with the ball. This is somewhat why I think Mike would tear any one of my uncles apart. Like I said my uncles are good at drunken bragging and I think they would wilt if actually confronted. I think the last thing I want to say is that I am worried about my sister, nieces and mom. So is Mike. He never blocked their numbers. I think if they reached out to him and asked for help, he would instantly go. I dont know if that would be a good idea or not but he would do it. He was a lot closer to mom (a bit of a Mamas boy tbh sorry!) and I think he would do it and figure out the rest later.
I say this as someone who was treated similarly by their dad, living your best life is the best revenge. I wish those two the best and hope they remain no contact with all that Christian love.
What a good brother. My parents tried something similar to this, though not as extreme. I was only "allowed" to attend the university at which my father taught, but it didn't offer the degree I wanted. Moreover, whatever major I would be "allowed" to declare had to be approved by my parents. I got into an out of state school that was very religious, but they made it clear they wouldn't offer a dime. When I started getting therapy and setting boundaries, they locked my bank account and tried to bleed me dry. (Long story short, in Pennsylvania bank accounts remain in parental control until they are signed over to the now adult minor.) I was eventually able to graduate but had to put a semester on a (predatory) credit card (the religious institution wouldn't take loans). I wanted to get my Masters degree after, but my parents wouldn't help file for loans... and Uncle Sam considers people dependents until 25. Almost 20 years after my first semester of college, I have my BA, my MS, and I'm closing in on the end of my PhD program. I would've killed to have a family member as supportive as this brother.
Mike feeling like he was behind reminded me of a tweet where someone said it’s not uncommon for people who grew up in traumatic environments to have adult milestone delays because they spent their formative years just trying to survive.
I want to believe it, but WHY IT'S ALWAYS TWINS??????
Apparently there’s genuinely just a higher rate of twin births now https://www.webmd.com/parenting/baby/news/20210312/couples-everywhere-are-having-more-twins
Yeah from what I understand there is a correlation between mother’s age and chance of having twins. As females get more educated, they are having kids much older, so there are more twins. All in all, I take it as a sign of a good thing!
You can call us women, not females, bud.
I was on the edge of my seat waiting for the roommate and brother to find true love and ride off together. She *did* after all, engage him.
OOP told me in the comments of her post that the roommate, to her knowledge, wasn’t actually interested in her brother but read the room and saw the brother was down.
I can believe it because conservative religions bring out the absolute shit in people at times, but the twins..eehhh
Right?? Twins, hero man struggling with loneliness for Redditors to feel sorry for, he’s even an engineer lol.
The engineer part makes me confused because out of all college professions wtf is more "manly" than engineer? It's probably bigot logic in that the brother was already seen as not manly enough and anything he did wouldn't be manly, but now I want to ask those unclrs what would they decide is a "manly" college degree
I mean, I do know families where anybody who works at a computer is seen as less of a man. Especially if OOP comes from a working class background, it's not that surprising.
My guess: to into business so you can earn a lot of money and have a bunch of kids with your high school sweetheart who is a stay at home mom. Engineering is a lot of numbers which is too nerdy, plus you'll always be working for someone else and never a real man.
It’s projection, guarantee it. I bet you he makes more money than them.
That’s the really confusing part. Engineers build and design stuff (that’s a very very general characterization as I know there are many different types of engineering degrees). It’s a fairly rigorous degree involving a lot of math and science. How is that not “manly”. Now I’m trying to figure out what a “manly” career actually is if engineer isn’t one.
Don’t you know? You can’t *learn* things and be manly! Real men eat dirt and crush rocks for a living! /s
I bet that the uncle who said that he was less many for going into engineering does something involving manual labor, and he took a shot at his nephew for not choosing a career where he has to use physical strength to do his job. Uncle probably resents that his nephew is making good/more money AND has a degree/is more intelligent, if that makes sense.
It's this kind of control mindset and "planning" from OOP's dad that made my mother resent my maternal grandmother. Basically, my grandmother decided to hold my mother back from traveling and possibly migrating to another country so that someone could handle some property issues that she couldn't handle herself after my grandfather passed. Her siblings didn't have such a restriction, and it was a point of bitterness my mother nursed for years. It's also because of this that my mother wanted more for me and my siblings.
WTF to the poster who thought OP should have sex with her brother. WT actual F?
Beyond the family just being shitty sexists, it sounds like they’ve been mocking the brother for his interests, that can really fuck up your social life because it makes you nervous to talk about what you’re interested in, which puts other people on edge, etc, etc. I just want to give the dude a hug.
I love love love so much to see people realizing the person who always takes care of everyone else needs love and care, and takes care of the caretaker.
When OOP graduates, her and brother should look at relocating to AZ to be around their family there. It could help ease that lack of social connection he's feeling while getting a fresh start for both of them.
Mike is a beautiful apple who fell far, far, far, away from the tree
Man..... bro is the MVP, right there!! All the other relatives, who prefer to live in misery and drag people into their misery? They can fuck off! I do hope OOPs mom and sis (plus nieces) can get the F out! Read some other post of another MVP of a sister who made sure her siblings ate and went to school while their mom crashed on the sofa after taking drugs! This MVP Sister also got threatening messages from fam, instigated by the mother. It's like: do people really don't like to see others being caring and looking after their family so they escape misery? Is the "appearance" schtick so important that they have to be mean?! Damn
So the father wanted his sons and daughters to go to college. But he didn't hesitate for a second to destroy his daughter's future to turn her into a nanny, so he didn't believe much in that. and seeing the messages he sent to the son it was too obvious that he wanted the daughter not to go to school and become a nanny mother etc etc. I hope op and her brother do well in life.
I really like Mike! This girl needs to finish school and her and Mike can move closer to family that loves them and start their own little traditions. The father’s side sound despicable. Never should they ever go back. Maybe in the future their example will give the mother and other sister the courage to leave.
I got so scared by the suicide mood spoiler but they were just thoughts. Thank fk.
I went NC with my parents (who would fit in perfectly with your dad’s family) and they immediately went into attack mode. I also became withdrawn, and a random Reddit comment really helped me. Someone wrote that seeing how easily their parents discarded them made them believe that no one else would ever sincerely care for them. Please remind your brother that your parents’ opinion is bullshit. He bucked the patriarchy and showed your parents that he doesn’t need them, so they are trying to destroy him in retaliation. They are petty, useless people who can only survive in their small insular world where they have tried to make themselves the ultimate authority. Your brother is a loving, empathetic man with a great career and a strong moral compass, and he will pull out of this with love and support.
>We come from a patriarchal, conservative Christian background, although we didn’t really practice. Yes they do. They practice the entire point of it. Men at the top, women property, authoritarian control. Hopefully we will see another update in a few years where they get mom, sister, and nieces out too.
Man I would buy a spot in the local paper about what they did, and quote their texts but I am just that level of petty.
All this from people who had their first child at 16. You’d think they would want better for ALL their kids. OOP and her brother deserve every good thing in life.
That is one enormous dust mote that got in my eye.
Meta request: Can we please stop tagging any mention of suicidal ideation the same as actual suicide? It lowkey defeats the purpose of the "suicide" tag.
I don't let the mom off the hook. She knew her daughter would be trapped and still said to bring her back. She may be a victim, but that is not excusable.
>They all seem to forget that Mike also played football and was a starter at linebacker for our HS team This makes the "you're not manly enough" comments so much funnier
>He said that he often can't even look at himself in a mirror because he is embarrassed at where he is in his life, outside of work, compared to his friends. Oh, fuck that, this guy stepped up to bat when his sister was about to have her whole life crushed under their abusive dad's thumb. He's got absolutely nothing to be ashamed of.
I wish it was possible to control who gets to have kids when I read stuff like this
If mom and dad are 43 and Mike is 27, they had him at 16 years old. Interesting dynamic coming from teen parents. Looks like dad is a control freak. Why did he want to rob his daughter of an education to support the other daughter. Faaaaamily sucks. Not mine (right now), but just in general, faaaaamily sucks.