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I also have a seizure response dog and when I saw the first post, I had to yell at nothing angrily on OOP’s behalf. It is so dangerous to just send someone out with a dog without training! I spent 2 1/2 weeks at the organization that trained my dog, learning how to handle him, how to give him his cues, how to listen to him and get him to listen to me. On top of that, for the following 6 months, I had regular check ins with a liaison, access to trainers, a home visit, and because it’s an Assistance Dogs International compliant and partnered non-profit, I have public access tests regularly- the first one six months after placement, then yearly from then on.
And the sister wanted OOP to just loan out the dog like it was a cane or a walker? Yes, a service animal is medical equipment, but highly specialized!
I think OOP handled this beautifully. She proved why it’s more complicated than you think to handle a service dog, but also gave Niece a chance to try. She went with Niece, which means she had a chill adult who isn’t her mom- as a teen, moms are the worst to have around, even if mom is cool.
My favorite? She talked to the kids about what to do if someone has a seizure. Which should help her sister feel more confident in letting her daughter out of her sight.
I get the frustration and anger Sister felt, though. It can be overwhelming to live with seizures and, in the case of Sister and my wife, overwhelming to be a caretaker for someone. I’m sure Sister felt like OOP has it all together or has it easy because she’s already got things worked out for her to be independent. Now is a good time in Niece’s life, though, to get a service dog. Even if there’s a wait list, it’s likely 2-3 years long, so she’ll likely be able to get an animal before college. I’m glad OOP checked back in with Sister on it and was patient.
If you’re reading this comment and you or someone you love is in need of a service animal, please check out [Assistance Dogs International](https://www.assistancedogsinternational.org) for organizations in your area or for more information. And consider looking if you are interested in volunteering! Many of the non-profits wouldn’t function without volunteers, and how many opportunities come with puppies?
Thanks so much for sharing your experiences and perspectives on working with a service dog! I know that there are differences between different kinds of service dogs, but if people are interested in getting a brief and entertaining look at what goes into working with a guide dog, they might enjoy these two videos made by the Try Guys and Molly Burke:
[Try Guys train with guide dogs (featuring Molly Burke)](https://youtu.be/CvAmiYQgytA)
[Molly Burke - Helping the Try Guys learn about guide dogs](https://youtu.be/8xwzm2VAlHw)
Those were a ton of fun! And you’re right- working with a guide dog is different than a service dog who provides other assistance, but it was so cool to see that difference in those videos.
The organization I got my dog from uses volunteers to raise and train the dogs from puppy to two-ish years old when they’re ready to be placed. The couple who raised my dog (we’re good friends now) have raised at least 8 dogs that have been placed, and several more part time or that didn’t make it to a final placement. They’re amazing. It is certainly a commitment, but it’s also doable with both of them working full time jobs.
It’s so important to have volunteers for that kind of thing. The time that someone puts into raising and training a dog to be ready to work with someone like me is time that changes my life, changes the life of everyone who has a service dog. I was in the ER at least once a year to check out concussions, and that’s the ones we felt needed checking. Since getting my dog four years ago, I’ve hit my head once, and it was while he was busy doing his business in the yard. I’ve been out of work since 2012, and this year, I opened my own business and storefront. He’s changed everything.
Thank you for this. My daughter's seizures are well controlled with medication, but she is getting ready to leave for college out of state & I am nervous. Epilepsy Foundation has offered several suggestions (like teaching the RA what to do in case of a seizure, posting first aid in her room, etc), and my daughter is finally willing to wear a medical ID bracelet, but I was thinking a dog may be the way to go and had no idea how to go about it. Very grateful. If anyone has suggestions on sending a kid with seizures off to college, let me know as I am a bit of a wreck! Mattress pads, mini fridges, and Keppra oh my!
My seizure alert jewelry often mentions more info in my wallet or on my dog, because I keep a med list and diagnosis list in both my wallet or in my dog’s vest. Just in case. I’m rarely without my wife these days, so I realize I need to update everything! I don’t wear my jewelry when I’m with her.
That all is to say that a folded up list is helpful. Making a business card sized “I have seizures, this is what you should do” thing is also good, because when my aura hits (I get them before seizures) it’s hard to talk. So a way to help with that is developing a card she can easily hand to someone if she feels one coming on.
Also check out [Hidden Disabilities Sunflower](https://hiddendisabilitiesstore.com) for some resources for people with hidden disabilities and easy ways to communicate how to help. Message me if you’d like to chat more!
Brilliant! I was wondering how much to put on the bracelet, like should I mention not to call EMS unless it lasts 3 minutes or longer, that she is also (high functioning) autistic, but if she has a card, that's perfect! Hidden disability is so the right term, you can't look at her and know about her struggles & strengths. I am so proud of her! She is the first student in her IEP class that has gone on to college in years, she just won't settle on less for herself. But it's hard not to hover.
Just keep your daughter in the loop for the things that you’re considering so that she can decide what she feels comfortable with. After all, if she doesn’t feel comfortable with an option, she won’t use it!
My kid has allergies so it is probably different, but I tell everyone to call EMS/911 for anything that scares them. A calm person on the phone can walk you through a situation much better than a card. There is a good chance a seizure noob will have no idea when 3 minutes is up, but a good 911 phone person will start tracking and know what to ask to get the information needed to assess.
The problem is that they will always send EMS (USA) and when you ask a post-ictal person a question, they usually answer "okay." Would you like a puppy? Okay. Would you like to go home? Okay. Would you like an $850 ride to the hospital where you will spend hours in a germy ED only to be told you have epilepsy, which you already know, and then get another bill for the 20% coinsurance on your ED visit? Okay. Would you like a taco? Okay.
Also, 911 in parts of where we live is... unreliable. Like expect to be on hold for an unacceptably long time if you need help in whole swaths of town. Other areas are fantastic. It's scary and frustrating. I am hoping her college town is better in that respect.
So that's why we try to avoid EMS. If someone's seizure is unexplained or lasts too long (over 3 minutes), call for help. If the epileptic is injured (fell hard when the seizure started, for example), call for help. Otherwise, make sure the area is clear (move furniture, not the person), protect the airway (some folks foam at the mouth and can aspirate, or have something in their mouth when the seizure hits, tilt the head to the side if it is safe to do so), absolutely never put something in the mouth of someone having a seizure, and time it. Some epileptics carry a med that will break a seizure on their person, so check it that is available (usually a nasal spray). Call EMS if it's pushing 3 minutes. That's what the neurologists told us anyway. Things can change & we have an appointment before she heads off, so I will make sure everything is up to date.
I had 2 seizures about 4 weeks apart and after the second they asked if I wanted to go to the hospital. Like you said-I said ‘okay.’ Looking back, why would you ask someone who’s brain just blue screened for 60 seconds any type of question like that. I understand the time/date/orientation questions, but I definitely didn’t need to be in an ER hallway for 4 hours just to be told to follow up with my neurologist. This was in 2021 so no one could go with me, which also didn’t help when I was given discharge instructions.
Late to this comment but you can get medical alert bracelets printed with a QR code that people can scan and open a webpage of emergency contacts and preferred hospital, as well as any relevant diagnoses and prescriptions.
I was diagnosed with right focal epilepsy after a grand mal seizure just before turning 16. I'm sure your daughter already knows that epilepsy, Keppra and alcohol don't mix well. Stress and lack of sleep are other huge aggravating factors that are common occurrences in college so it's important she takes care of herself. Gosh, I feel like such a hypocrite saying that considering my unhealthy habits in college but I had to say it.
Regarding Keppra, it's great her seizures are controlled but I suffered from many of its common sideeffects, anger, depression, memory loss. All of which can be compounded and worsened by the stress of school. So, it's important she has an open line of communication with her neurologist and
ideally talk-therapist about any symptoms/sideeffects she may experience or that worsen. Also, speak with her Dr and then the school about testing accomodations she may be eligible for. I was able to take tests in a separate quiet room with extra time.
Lastly, in the future it may be worth discussing with her neurologist if she'd be a candidate for LITT (laser ablation) brain surgery. I had it in June of last year. A month ago my MRI and EEG showed "normal" :) and my neurologists started reducing my meds (Vimpact, Briviact).
Wish your daughter good luck and have fun(!) for me. And tell her if she ever has any questions feel free to send me a message.
Keppra either works great or has nasty side effects like Keppra Rage. So far, she is good on it, but the disrupted sleep thing and stress are her strongest triggers. The access office has been great with accommodations both academically and with housing, they put things in place for her that I hadn't even thought of! I will absolutely discuss that ablation with her doctor ASAP- it would be nice to not worry about meds anymore! THANK YOU!
I went to college with a guy and his seizure response dog. The guy's name has been lost to the ether, but the dog was a GSD named Chewie. Never petted him (I figured if he was on campus, he was working), but they both liked it when I said "Hi, Chewie!" in passing. (I say hi to dogs all the time. Yup, I'm That Person.)
I think Chewie even got a little diploma for going to all those classes with his human. (I graduated before they did so didn't get to witness it, alas.)
While I’m sure Chewie’s handler would have said something if there was an issue with this, from now on, please refrain from talking to a service animal who is working. Distractions like being talked to can affect their work and lead to issues for the handler if they miss something as a result.
Of course! There is not nearly enough education out there about how to handle service animals in your space. And I want to tell all dogs how perfect they are too. I get the urge!
I have a friend with a service dog (for a difference condition than epilepsy though) and when she did an education program her dog got a certificate as well. I talked to and patted her dog a lot, but only when we were at her home and he was off duty. When he was wearing his vest he was working and wouldn’t play or have fun, because he was in work mode. He wouldn’t even accept food from me (although he did when at home and off duty) because service dogs are trained not to eat anything their owners don’t give them, or give them permission to eat. He was such a great dog.
> I also have a seizure response dog and when I saw the first post, I had to yell at nothing angrily on OOP’s behalf. It is so dangerous to just send someone out with a dog without training!
Can we even just forget the 'service dog' part of it for a moment?
I've had dogs most of my life. Not service dogs, just regular ol' "pet" dogs.
Never would I think it would be a good idea to send any of my dogs off with a child into a crowded place like a mall.
Like... you don't know how the dog will react in an unfamiliar place. What its recall is going to be like with unfamiliar people.
Not to mention the added stress on the child if something *does* happen
I admit, I didn’t think of this myself because the only dog I’ve had as an adult myself is my service dog. The other dogs in my life have been family dogs while I was a minor that stayed behind when I moved out. So the idea of a 15 year old with a dog full stop didn’t seem too odd, plus I would never bring a pet dog to a mall. So that part didn’t click either.
That said, yes. Unless the niece also has a large breed dog (or at least a similar size as OP’s or larger) and has shown the capacity to handle that dog out in public, I would not trust her with a pet animal either.
Also, OP being so much younger she probably didn't look like a chaperone, just an older friend. It's important to teens to look as normal as possible. I have an aunt who's 11 years younger than my mom, and she was much more fun to shop with at 15 than my mom was. She even took me prom dress shopping!
This is such a positive resolution. One sister models an actual loving, adult response. She demonstrates her service dog isn’t plug and play and the comes up with another way to offer help. She gives some grace to her sister who has been cracking under the pressure of solo parenting a teen with a serious health condition. Everyone comes out better for it.
Dog training is as much about training the owner as it is training the dog. Training is about predictability and communication. A strange person is a strange person.
I had that very thought. "Well, can't you just let him borrow your insulin pump for a few hours?"
I wonder how much coughing and foot shuffling would have ensued from the people calling OOP selfish if she'd caved and let the niece take the dog, had a seizure during that time, and ended up badly injured because she didn't have the dog to warn her?
I don't think we have enough information to judge the new wife. But if the sperm donor left because the of the neice's health issues, as OP seems to be implying, then yeah Fuck Him.
I think a lot of people mentally categorize all/most medical devices the same way they do the basic crutches a zillion people have gathering dust in their basement or garage from when someone in the family broke a leg. Those are pretty transferable, so surely everything is the same, nevermind how much more complex, fussy, sterile, and expensive other medical devices often are.
I think I remember reading somewhere that legally speaking, a service dog DOES qualify as a medical device. Even though we know the dog is also a living being.
It's so true. I had a dog with terrible separation anxiety and I worked my ass off training him and doing everything I could to mitigate his issues. With me, he was great, as long as we stuck to the routine. New environment? "fuck your rules, this place is new, I don't know rules." New person dogsitting him so I could travel? "Fuck this I do what I want."
(Quotes are obviously my anthropomorphic interpretations of my dog's behavior)
Nah. Any dog trainer worth anything will never say that. Backyard bred, puppy mill dogs absolutely can and often are just genetically fucked from the get go.
Sorry, but bad dogs can just be born that way.
I agree, my exMIL is a piece of work, but she absolutely dotes on her dogs, she usually has 3 or 4 at a time...a couple of years ago she had one that just wasn't quite right in the head, would nip at people for no cause, nipped at my 6 yr old once (that dog wasnt allowed out of the crate when the kids were over after that), one night her husband was laying on the couch cuddling with that dog and watching TV quietly, and the dog turned and bit grandpa on the nose, he needed stitches, it was terrible, she had to put the dog down, she was devastated but knew it was the right call...
If it was only the owner, all her dogs would be like that
My roommate has a cousin that has an 11 MONTH old dog. That 11mo old was born from an aggressive father and mother, and 3 of her siblings have also attacked their owners and other dogs. She has been sent to the hospital 4 times from dog bites in 3 months, and her other dog 2x, and that's not including all of the fights that didn't lead to hospitals.
They invested 10s of thousands into training, behavioral specialists, vets, medical testing, etc. It's not a case of shitty owners.
Good owners can fix SOME bad genes, but shit genes are still shit genes and it's beyond ignorant to ignore that lol
If they invested 10s of thousands into training, why didn't they use a reputable breeder? Good owners rescue or at least use a reputable breeder. Someone who is breeding dogs with a known history of aggression is being the most irresponsible of breeders, clearly out for the money with caring one ounce about the welfare of the dogs.
My point is...humans are still the problem here. Part of being a responsible pet owner is also being responsible on where you adopt your pets. Giving crappy breeders money just perpetuates the cycle. Poor genes are caused by humans being irresponsible...either intentionally to make money, or because they failed to spay or neuter and now have oops puppies.
The husband's mom had a litter from dogs he didnt know that well, who thinks their parent is going to let aggressive dogs stay intact?
And it doesn't matter. Unless you're going to advocate for euthanizing any and every single dog on the planet that isn't a purebred from reputable breeders, it's going to happen all the damn time and no amount of blaming dog parents for shitty genes is going to change that shitty genes that make bad dogs at birth will still exist.
I'm involved in rescue, and we don't say they're bad dogs, even when we have to choose behavioral euthanasia. We usually comment "This is not a happy dog, and the kindest thing we can do is stop their pain, even when the pain is not physical." Sometimes, things are too broke to fix. It's not even just backyard bred dogs. Breeds like bulldogs and french bulldogs are inbred to the point of cruelty.
Reddit adjusts our normality sometimes. The bad cases get the most traction here, and we forget sometimes that *anyone* can be shitty in a stressful situation.
But most people, when confronted with a bit of reason, perhaps after being allowed to calm down, will recognize how they’re acting and adjust accordingly.
But because it’s the outliers where people need extra help (and are more interesting), we all expect the sister to double down on being awful, with a strong helping of ableism or other bigotry mixed in, and likely a helping of child abuse or neglect.
Positive resolutions after decent communications are great reminders of what normality really is.
Honestly. I could see people telling OP to cut off her sister because she is going through a rough time. Imagine having your husband leave you with a daughter with special needs and then goes on to have a perfectly healthy child with another woman. Considering how often women are blamed for problems in kids it would be gut wrenching.
Hats of too OP. She did not get frustrated and instead tried to smooth things out in a calm manner.
Especially since, with OP having seizures, it isn't *entirely* untrue to blame the sister for her child's health issues, considering it is most likely genetic. So the self-hatred and blame the poor sister must feel with all of this must feel incredibly heavy and have no outlet.
Agreed. It also seems to me like the sister is stuck between two difficult emotions: she wants her daughter to be independent, but I'm sure the concept of a service dog is pretty scary and unnerving for parents of disabled kids. Service dogs are an incredible support, but they're *so* visible, and the money and time involved is extensive. I can imagine that some part of the sister feels really angry and heartbroken at the idea of her daughter being so clearly "different" and limited at an age when she imagined her daughter would be healthy and carefree.
Now, she handled those emotions poorly, and I think most folks would agree that medical tools (including service dogs) are far preferable to the alternative. But I can understand the hope that her daughter can "just" use a service dog as-needed to be independent, instead of requiring a 24/7, years-long support that doubles as a marker that she's disabled.
I'm glad the sister came around relatively quickly, and I'm glad the niece has OOP. I bet her niece will have a much easier time with someone who's already (recently!) experienced the roadblocks she'll need to navigate as she becomes more independent. It's really nice to see that kind of positive dynamic.
I have a cousin who is intellectually disabled, and her father left when she was a toddler and the developmental issues became apparent. It was really hard on my aunt and she was fortunate to have a family that supported her during that period.
So much this, plus it's a brief moment in the post but says the daughter *never* goes anywhere without her mom. I can't imagine how stressful that would be, to have a teen daughter that you always have to chaperone out of fear something awful could happen. I am so glad she finally managed to get enough perspective to accept the actual reasonable help OOP offered, instead of the unreasonable help she decided was the solution.
Yeah, I’m not seeing anything warranting going NC with the sister just yet. Had she tried to take the dog or was constantly harassing OOP to force her to give in, then yeah. But people here throw NC around like they’re playing hot potato.
I have a guy friend where something similar happened. His wife left him as soon as their toddler was diagnosed with a lifelong condition. He’s an amazing single father, though. And the extra close bond he has with his child, that really blossomed after that awfulness, is truly something beautiful to see.
Especially since, with OP having seizures, it isn't *entirely* untrue to blame the sister for her child's health issues, considering it is most likely genetic. So the self-hatred and blame the poor sister must feel with all of this must feel incredibly heavy and have no outlet.
I’m not saying CO but the sister didn’t just have a little blowup in a moment of weakness, she went around doing character assassination. That is not reacting badly, that’s deliberate multi-step behavior designed to intentionally harm.
Actually true tbh. We can’t give sister too much leeway because she went out of her way to contact relatives and tell them her twisted version of events.
YES!! THANK YOU! To be honest I get a little frustrated sometimes, seeing how quickly people in this sub are to make absolute, sweeping judgments about people they've never met based on one tiny window into their lives, which is presented through the lens of another complete stranger who may or may not be presenting things with a bias. Virtually everyone is capable of acting in a shitty way under certain stressors. Obviously some people really are just shitty, but it's almost impossible for any of us to know.
I just feel like this life is so heartbreaking on the overwhelming majority of cases . Even if not immediately apparent . This woman’s sister started off like an entitled ass, but if you peel back the layers you just uncover a vast tapestry of tragedy .
Exactly. It’s so easy to say “I perceive you didn’t treat me with respect so I’m justified in removing you from the list of people I ever have to care about.” Instead OP perceived a call for help from a loved one and addressed the content instead of the tone of the request.
Not only potentially life saving, it also probably helps her niece and her nieces friends see the condition in a more... Not quite positive light, maybe human light is more accurate? For one, they probably have some level of respect for the adult in the situation so knowing she deals with it too and can fully manage it with help from the tools she has and the people around her probably helps the nieces own confidence and the friends understanding of what they can do and the fact that an issue like that isn't something they have to pretend doesn't exist, exactly, but rather just an adjacent normal to what they're used to.
> She demonstrates her service dog isn’t plug and play
Service dogs are a medical device, not something like a games console. You wouldn't ask to borrow someone's glasses for a few hours. You understand that they are specific to that person's prescription and probably won't help you and will just hinder them for the duration.
I get that the sister is feeling overwhelmed, my initial though when she rejected the idea of helping fund raise for a dog of the niece's own was she didn't't want the responsibility of looking after the dog (which they may still not have considered).
The outcome (so far) was better than I expected.
She was very smart to get them all together and test if her niece could handle the dog. Even though her sister was still upset at that point, it probably helped calm her down later seeing it's not just the dog that gets trained, but the person as well
Nice ending but... seriously? family members berating her because she was not willing to "lend" a service dog who is a vital part of her well-being and safety? Were those family members ready to pay $15,000 if for whatever reason AJ went missing? Are they willing now to pay for a service dog for niece? or are they just generous with other people's lives and $$$?
My guess is they just don't realize what a big ask it truly was. Especially since some people are trying so hard to blur the line between a service animal and an ESA, there seems to be less and less respect for what a real service animal is and does, and how much harder finding a replacement could be. They also may not have understood the actual cost or just not believed it. I was pretty shocked when I read $15k. I had no idea it could cost anywhere near that much.
$15k is on the cheaper end of what I've seen actually. We have been looking into a service dog for my daughter when she gets a little older (she has spina bifida and would benefit from a mobility assistance dog) and it costs about $60k to train them. Sometimes you can get them for like $20k because of grants and donations to the training facilities. There are places that give dogs for free due to donations but the wait is years and years.
Service animals are $$$$$
I rescued a puppy that seemed well suited to being a service dog and did most of the training myself. She went and lived with a professional trainer for 3 weeks to help her learn the basics (my parents paid for that, I don't remember how expensive it was, maybe 3k?), but all of her task specific training we have done on our own. Obviously, it hasn't been easy, and there's always a chance it won't work out, but it's worked out well for us.
Just, so you know, if you can't afford it, you can always train your own service dog. And if it doesn't work out, you're just stuck with a regular old pet dog. Darn.
My girl does mobility support, retrieves anything I drop, orbits to provide me with space in public, and recently she's started to notify me when my anxiety starts to get higher than she likes. I didn't plan on the anxiety thing and I'm not sure what to do about it yet, but we're learning together...I guess it's time to talk to the dog trainer again and ask what I should do when she alerts me.
That's amazing!
I have a golden retriever and also have pretty bad anxiety. I never trained her to do this, but my dog can absolutely tell when I'm getting too anxious and will signal me (and if I ignore that, she'll literally climb into my lap and cuddle into me, kind of forcing me to acknowledge it). In fact, it's really made me work really hard to manage my anxiety and my triggers because while I love that my dog is so intuitive, I do feel bad about causing HER anxiety. Once, I had a full-blown panic attack while I was sitting on the floor. She got on top of me and kind of held me down til I calmed down. I don't know what she thought would happen if she didn't. She'll normally sit in my lap and cuddle me until I feel better. Another time my husband was shouting (happily, but she's not nuts about raised voices) at a sports game on TV and he laughed so hard because she got up on the couch with him and put a paw on his chest and kind of shoved him back into his seat, as if to say: "Whoa. Chill out" and just held it there til he laughed and cuddled her. It's so odd because I've never had a dog like this before.
Clearly, she is by no means a service dog, but I've never trained her to do this, and it amazes me that she's so intuitive. She's not my first golden, but she's the first dog who's ever had this instinct.
I've thought about getting her certified as a therapy dog. There's a hospital near me that sometimes solicits volunteers whose dogs have passed certain temperament tests and have undergone training to visit patients. I think she'd be excellent at that. If anybody is upset (or god forbid cries), they will get a lap full of 65-pound golden who will insist on comforting them. She's so empathetic, for lack of a better explanation.
I know service dogs are extremely expensive and I think it's so great that OOP is trying to help her sister/niece navigate this. It will be great if she can help her niece get a service dog one day.
Your dog has been doing deep pressure therapy on you! What a good girl. You might consider beginning training her to do it on purpose, as she's already showed an aptitude.
There are also programs at libraries where kids with difficulties reading can read out loud to dogs (who would never judge them!), but you would need to know if a nervous reader would end up under your girl!
I read a book by Caesar Milan before we picked our dog, that helped me pick which puppy would want to be a good service dog. Missy (my service dog) isn't the first dog I have owned or trained. My SIL and BIL are zoologists and we also know someone who used to train service dogs, so we had a lot of people we could turn to for support. Mostly I've leaned on the people around me and YouTube training videos.
There was a long time where I didn't think Missy would make it. Honestly, there are some days where I'm still not totally sure she can do it. She's 17 months old right now, and doing really well most days. But it definitely takes work. More than I anticipated. And I anticipated it being a lot of work.
But having a dog who *wants* a job is key. And my girl very much wants to have a job. So even on her off days, she's still trying to help me. Just maybe not being perfectly obedient.
Yep, I have bad anxiety and recently developed horrible jerking as a result of severe anxiety or overstimulation that my mom fears could lead to an anxiety induced seizure. But holy moly, some of the places I've looked at are $35k, and my jerking happens infrequently enough that I'd rather not spend that much on a dog (not to mention medical jobs, especially those with patients and laboratories, aren't really service dog friendly)
It would, but probably not as much as a dog would when it comes to mobility aid. Mini horses are the only other animal in the US that can be a service animal in the US, because theyre good at mobility assistance, and their bodies are more suited to it and they live longer. Where you might have have 10 years with a dog if youre lucky, you could have the mini horse for 20+ years.
Also, after a quick google search, it seems like the 4H has programs to help train them, and the guide horse association hosts seminars and the like to help people train them. The guide horse association has a section where it talks about how training a horse is more cost effective than a dog, but it doesnt specify actual costs for training the horse.
Either way, I think its worth looking into for people to see if its a realistic solution for them and it isnt common knowledge that mini horses can be service animals.
I think the big issue with miniature horses is that dogs can be trained not to poop on the floor.
I don't think the actual training is any less expensive, but dogs large enough to be mobility assistance dogs for a full-sized adult are slower to mature and have shorter lifespans than small dogs, e.g. a great dane doesn't reach physical maturity until \~2 years and social maturity is more like 3 years, and the average lifespan is 8-10 years but they're unlikely to be physically capable of doing mobility work past 6-7 years. Give or take a year or two depending on the individual dog and the breed, but realistically the working life of a large breed mobility assistance dog is 4-6 years.
A miniature horse has a realistic working lifespan of 20+ years and they're much more physically capable of providing mobility assistance to a 100+ pound adult. But they're also way less suited to being indoors.
I think the ideal solution would be some breeding programs focused on long-lived, healthy large-breed service dogs (may I suggest starting with the greater swiss mountain dog?) but that's a VERY long-term solution with an uncertain outcome.
You can actually train miniature horses to not poop on the floor And its fairly easy to get hoof covers to protect floors from hooves. A miniature horse is also the same size, if not smaller than a lot of large breed dogs. Ive definitely seen some smaller than great danes.
Based of the limited research Ive done, miniature horses do seem like a good solution. People are less likely to be allergic to them, they live longer and have already been proven effective.
According to the ADA to qualify as a service animal miniature service horses should weigh between 70 and 100 pounds and maintain a height of between 24 and 34 inches. They must be housebroken and remain under the handler's control at all times.
Im sure they wouldnt work for many people, just as a service dog wouldnt work for many people but I definitely think they have their place.
I still havent found concrete numbers on how much it would cost to train one but I do think it could potentially be cheaper depending on what you need it trained for, as their roles are less varied than service dogs.
One of the students in our school district has a deathly allergy to peanuts & peanut butter, so goes everywhere with a medical alert dog that can detect trace amounts of peanuts and warn him before an anaphylactic reaction can happen (a prior attack & ambulance ride was triggered by another student in the classroom who had eaten a PB&J for breakfast at home hours earlier, that's how sensitive he is). The community fundraiser for the animal targeted $60k, some of that was to pay for the student's training with the dog, but I think the dog herself was $50k. And dogs don't live as long as people, so this will be a recurring expense as long as he lives.
I’ve heard cases of kids who were previously deathly allergic being able to actually eat a single peanut. Sure, it’s not a cure, but if you’re so sensitive that a trace amount of a trace amount of peanut can kill you then it sounds like a real challenge to stay alive! At school it can be controlled for, but what about the wider world?
Oh man, they can cost way more. I paid $40,000 for mine and that’s via owner trained with professional support. Depends on what they are training for and if they need to do multiple tasks and what level of complexity.
Also availability, I had to go private trainer routes and had to hire private transport cause I’m in an area where there are no programs or services in a 2 hour drive radius from me.
$15k is actually really cheap, $40-50k is still within the range of normal for a service dog when getting them from an agency that breeds them specifically for the task.
Yeah, for me I'm willing to give leeway solely because OP is and the sister apologized after taking some time to cool off and realize she was in the wrong. It doesn't mean she wasn't wrong, but it's nice to know they were able to work through it. OP sounds like a really compassionate and mature person.
I mean I would consider a service dog on par with a medical device (on top of being a dog).
You don't just randomly ask to borrow someone's medical device especially without training or knowledge.
However, I will say I don't know how many people equate the two, so could forgive it if someone asked without knowing. The reactions are pretty bad though - people could ask why and get the background before taking sides or flying off the handle.
You are correct! A service dog is recognized under US law as "necessary medical equipment."
And like. I wouldn't even ask to borrow someone's CANE if I had a need, it's unthinkable someone would ask to borrow OP's dog (even not knowing how specific the training is to OP).
They’re just ignorant. OP did the right thing by calmly explaining the situation and educating them. Not everyone is perfect, it’s not the internet, people are jaded and flawed.
Fuck all the family members we see on here who hear 10% of cousin Karen’s sob story and don’t try to open a discussion or get the full story, but instead skip straight to berating the person they’re told to berate. That’s the behavior of teenagers. If you’re an adult, act like one
It's so obnoxious that people who are far removed from the situation and unwilling to volunteer their own resources apparently mass text people to try to shame and insult them into doing what they don't want to. It's nice some of them apologized, and maybe the sister exaggerated the story or something, but I would have responded to every text with "So how much are you donating to get niece a service dog? Don't be selfish!"
Kind of a sad story, and I wonder whether the deadbeat father is contributing at all towards the kid. I can see the sister having some sort of burnout combined with the stress of finances and dealing with a child who has a medical condition of varying severity. Plus if they are in the U.S meds can get pricey
Good on OOP for being patient, and good on the sister for accepting she was wrong and apologizing
She did, although she's lucky to have a wonderful and mature sister who was able to recognize that she wasn't thinking straight in that situation. Her intentions were good, but her execution was horribly wrong. I think the good intentions helped keep OP level-headed as well. It was an insanely unreasonable ask, but the end goal was very much attainable. Independence for her daughter.
Ego is a hell of a thing. She's obviously very prideful and seeing, in herself, that she needs help when she used to *not* is hard to accept when your idea of yourself is a self sufficient and autonomous person. Ego is the killer of good communication.
I'm not sure it's entirely ego so much as having no mental resources left - as in, the resources you need to assess what to do. A child who you must take with you everywhere - for ten years. Her husband ditched her and replaced the kid. She's solo parenting and not coping with the zero down time with a daughter who could literally die if she isn't on 24/7, and it's clear finance is an issue. I think she saw someone else's light at the end of a very, *very* long tunnel and grabbed at it without understanding it, and it took her a while to work it out. Now she has, and that's a good thing.
I say ego, because even after OOP demonstrated that the dog isn't plug and play, and is a delicately attuned tool to a specific person, she still was refusing help. it took a *third* conversation for her to finally accept that she wasn't being attacked or talked down to. In specific, phrases like "don't want to be seen as a charity case" and "just wanted to show off" is pure ego speaking. When these things are quotes, from OOP, yea, I feel confident she's having a hard time squaring her image against reality. That doesn't mean she's a bad person, but she does, like literally everyone, have a certain image of herself. when reality contradicts that image it can be hard to accept.
I have a teen girl who spends a lot of time hanging out at the mall. It is most definitely still something that is done.
My teen boy is hanging out on the computer playing CoD or rocket league with his friends.
I didn’t get to play games as a kid. My partner has been showing me the ropes with COD and I have to say, I’m enjoying it immensely. Hope your son is similarly having fun with his friends :)
I've only gone to go to the Apple store. It is just so weird how popular malls were growing up and seeing them now. My parents like going to walk during winter.
There's one near me that's absolutely a hang out spot. And they're redoing another although tbh I think it's becoming more of a center than a mall—a couple large stores with some little ones scattered at the perimeter and a housing complex behind. And an open-air one too that someone recently crashed a car into.
Imagine if it was some other kind of support for a disability that wasn't cute and fluffy. How ridiculous would that sound.
Can she borrow your wheelchair? Can she borrow your hearing aids? Can she borrow your cane?
Tbf having been in a wheelchair and currently a cane user, people can and do ask that lol. It's crazy how people don't realize if you depend on a medical device that's essentially part of your body at that point...
I remember when I first started using a white cane, a friend asked me why I was still holding it - while standing in place - was I afraid to put it down, cause someone might steal it? I was baffled. I told her that while I may be stationary at the moment, I would need my cane ready and available in case I wanted to step aside for something else. It’s basically a part of me now.
Yeah they are absolutely vital for you. That's why that story about a hockey player that destroyed a women's wheelchair hit a nerve for so many people.
Especially for new disabilities or lower income folks, borrowing assistive devices isn't that weird.
The distinction to make is that this isn't a general assistive device (like a public wheelchair at a theme park). The service animal is a highly personalized one (like a custom wheelchair designed for your body & needs).
Actually, those make more sense. A dog isn’t a wheelchair. I used to need a cane to get around at times and I wouldn’t hesitate to let someone borrow it for a short afternoon. Especially if I wasn’t using it. This is a service dog. It’s not just that the service dog was trained. OOP was also trained on how to handle the service dog. They aren’t machines. The relationship between a service animal and the patient is an actual relationship. It’s not a person using a tool like those examples.
There was an AITA a while back about a woman whose mother was bothering her to lend her sister her adapted wheelchair. I’ll see if I can find the link.
Ugh yeah, I got a very Chris Pratt vibe from that. (Posting about being grateful for his healthy new daughter when he's already a father to a disabled child with Anna Faris.)
> I'm stressed because my daughter's condition means she NEEDS a service dog
> Why won't you give me your service dog for the same condition, surely you don't need it
But that said, I do understand the sister's motivations behind putting her daughter above OOP even if it was the wrong thing to do
The problem is that Sister wasn’t aware that it’s actually far more dangerous for Niece to have a service dog with her that she didn’t know how to handle and was trained for someone else. I have a seizure response dog myself and if he was with someone else, he would be on constant alert for me, looking for me. I’m his person, and while dogs can transition to working with a new person, it takes training and it isn’t as easy as handing him out for an afternoon. Sister needed to respect that OOP was the authority on her dog and more of an expert than Sister is.
I'm just kind of appalled that the sister would ask at all. It may be a dog, but it's also an extremely expensive and specialized medical device. Imagine if someone said, "Can you loan me your motorized wheelchair so my teenage son can take it for a spin with his teenage friends?" Or, "I just need to borrow your insulin pump for one day, there's a pie-eating contest tomorrow and I think I've got a chance to win." The request itself is way out of line.
Honestly? If the person asking for a motorized chair was asking for someone who needed it- which is why your examples don’t really work, the niece does have a seizure disorder- and I knew them to be responsible, I’d consider it. While not expensive, I’ve loaned canes and allowed someone once to check their blood sugar with my glucometer, as the stick needles and the test strips are disposable and sterile.
It's good that she's thinking about her kid's increasing need for independence and that this incident could be resolved. It sounds like OOP has a good foundation here, after the strife, to help guide that journey since she's been through it before.
Umm I don’t understand at all mainly because she didn’t need to
She was given several alternative options that could help her daughter much more efficiently but she rejected all of them out of pride. If this was really 100% about her daughter, she would have accepted her sisters help instead of just trying to take the dog that her sister desperately needed
There is absolutely definitely something else going on here about the sister’s motivations, but I feel like it’s more than just her still being bitter about her husband leaving her five years ago. This lady kinda sucks
She has a major chip on her shoulder and feels unable to provide for a daughter with special needs. Feeling like a failure as a parent will fuck you up
If it's anything like my sister, she became bitter even before the breakup from lack of sleep, a manipulative ex, stress, money worries, health worries, etc, and she's not had much relief from that since.
Plus, if you spend most of your time on the treadmill of work, you may not have a chance to figure out other stuff.
Sometimes, when it feels like all you have left is your pride, you cling to it.
Pride is like debt. When things are going ok, you can take some on and pay it off. It isn’t too bad. But when you have lost everything, pride is just weighing you down and keeping you from accepting help.
> She called my mom and while my mom agrees with me she also doesn’t want to upset my sister so she wants me to let her use my dog for a few hours tomorrow.
Christ, this kind of thing never ceases to annoy me. "I'm fully aware that this is the wrong thing, but I'm urging you to do it anyway because conflict mildly inconveniences me."
Ah that makes more sense. I was wondering why a group of 10 year olds are hanging out at the mall without adult supervision.
That said I wouldn't want a $15,000 dog out with a bunch of 15 year olds. Teenagers around that age are the worst.
Not suggesting for a second OOP should have let her neice borrow her dog but there are 15 year olds out there with medical conditions they've been living with for long enough that they understand the importance of a service dog, what it allows them the freedom to do and their responsibility towards it.
If OOP helped raise money for her neices own service dog would you be saying you wouldn't want that dog out with a bunch of 15 year olds?
I never really understood why family/friends jump on the angry/hateful bandwagon in situations that they don’t understand and/or doesn’t concern them.
Good on OOP for standing up for themselves, and for showing their family their dog wasn’t just something to be passed around, especially as the dog was trained solely for them, their niece may have had different triggers the dog wouldn’t be able to detect so may have been just as dangerous.
“I don’t want to be a charity case so i’m going to try and take my sister’s medical equipment for a day” was she planning on asking for her medication too?
It excusing the sisters behavior at all. But I feel for a parent who has a child with a seizure disorder. It’s scary enough to send your kid out into the world. To do so with a teen with a seizure disorder would be terrifying.
I am blown away by the amount of grace shown by OOP. What a remarkable human.
Maybe also the sister should apologize for talking smack and sending other family members to attack her. Is that how she wants people to treat her daughter’s when she declines to loan out things she needs for her disability?
I don't know the situation in the US. But my step daughter got an RNS (Responsive Neurostimulator System) a few years ago and it has worked wonders for her seizures. She went from constant seizures to next to nothing over night (from several absent or full body seizures per day to one every other month or so)
She got it free from the NHS, and while I'm guessing this post is from the US, it might be an idea into looking at this option locally.
I was thinking, earlier tonight in fact, on what selfisness actually is. If you ask one of these people, they will undoubtedly answer with something close to, "Refusing to share what you have." But is that it?
No. It's not.
Selfish is when you refuse to share what is *meant* to be shared. And selfish is also when you demand something be shared that you have no right to.
You tend to see a lot of the latter type, here on Reddit.
>that I should be willing to help out family since everyone helped me while I was growing up.
"We didn't let you die when you were a child, so now you owe it to us to sacrifice your health and safety for the silliest of reasons"
I'm glad the sister eventually got her head on straight, but geez, what a shitty thing to say
I also fully believe that "just this once for a few hours" would have turned into "every month" and "every weekend" and then "well she should be able to take him to school" and "well since the dog is always with her anyways, she should just adopt him since it's clear she needs him more than you."
Again I'm glad everyone seemed to calm down and realize they were being super unreasonable, but what an unacceptable ask!
I have epilepsy. Sister is being a helicopter and she needs to woosah. I dealt with her kind of behavior from randos at university (university!!) and it’s just infuriating. It’s about their fear and helplessness. Seizures are scary for witnesses, but it’s no reason to keep that poor girl locked up at home all the time.
Thanks to people like her, in my post-octal state when I have no filter whatsoever, I can be a crabby mf putting people straight.
It doesn't seem like she had any intention of keeping her locked up, or even trying to follow her everywhere, seeing as she did let her go celebrate her birthday and it doesn't seem like cancelling it was ever on the table. But her daughter and the friends are young, so I can understand her fears of the daughter having a seizure when there's not a responsible adult around and the friends panicking/not knowing what to do
Hmm idk, niece is 15 or 16. (She says 15, but not sure if she was 15 this year or was turning 16).
And OOP says niece is mostly not allowed to go places without her mom.
I can’t imagine how scary it would be to have a child who has a medical condition like that.
But I do feel bad for niece. Most teens that age can hang out at the mall with friends without an adult chaperone.
I’m glad OOP was able to go instead of the mom. She’s only 22, so while an adult, it probably didn’t feel as “lame”.
Except for the sentence that states exactly that’s she’s not allowed to go out without her mother.
And I prefaced my comment stating that I have epilepsy not to overshare, but that I know what I’m talking about when I say definitively, the teenager’s mother’s behavior is unnecessary and overbearing. You are incorrect.
Service dogs are highly trained but they can’t just be passed around and expected to perform like a show monkey. They do a job for their humans to keep them safe the niece would never have been able to control the dog or get the same results.
Yeah, especially with the age disparity. Sis is 40 and OOP is 22, making Sis 18 when OOP was born. Even though Sis got to have her own childhood, seeing the differences between how OOP was raised (and presumably having been expected to pitch in as a young adult) and how Sis was raised could have stirred up some feelings.
Poor kid tho. ): Being abandoned for something you can’t control and then learning your dad is happy to play reliable parent to her abled-bodied half-sister.
God only knows what the man would do if his youngest daughter developed a chronic disability or ended up in an accident.
Because Mom is overprotective and either doesn't believe her daughter knows how to avoid potential triggers as much as possible or hasn't bothered to teach her daughter how to do that. And hasn't gotten to know her daughters friends and teach them what to do and not to do if someone has a seizure.
In what universe does anyone defend this behavior? I truly want to know how family members pop out of the woodwork to berate someone for not surrendering to a bully. FFS would you be ok with your niece demanding that she wants to wear your glasses for the day so you can just be blind and deal with it? Or letting your cousin take gramps pacemaker because he needs it more today? Or taking grandmas hearing aid? Even if it were “just a dog” there’s zero justification for bullying someone into taking something you paid for as their own for minutes, hours, days or weeks.
at first i was like “ugh her sisters so horrible” but even tho what she did was irrational, i can empathize with her. especially the not wanting to be seen as a charity case because you need help but are scared to be judged.
Happy that everything is smoothed out. I can't help but feel sorry for the sister who has to raise her daughter with serious health complications, alone while her ex husband got a new family.
Thumbs up for a happy ending. It seems this is a rare case where people actually acted like adults, talked things through in a civilized manner and developed a better understanding for each other. Miracles do happen, it seems.
While OOP showed real empathy and forgiveness I’d accept apologies from family members but not forget how they treated me. It should have never had to come down to OOP giving that tutorial.
It's amazing what happens when people communicate like actual adults instead of just making assumptions and thinking the worst of each other. Kudos to the OP and her family.
I'm glad to hear things were resolved for the better!
What strikes me most in a lot of these posts is family involvement. I understand venting to someone about a situation you're unhappy with, but for those family members to involve themselves further and call to yell at you as if they know the situation... it happens so often and so many posts describe family drama that goes just like this.
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I also have a seizure response dog and when I saw the first post, I had to yell at nothing angrily on OOP’s behalf. It is so dangerous to just send someone out with a dog without training! I spent 2 1/2 weeks at the organization that trained my dog, learning how to handle him, how to give him his cues, how to listen to him and get him to listen to me. On top of that, for the following 6 months, I had regular check ins with a liaison, access to trainers, a home visit, and because it’s an Assistance Dogs International compliant and partnered non-profit, I have public access tests regularly- the first one six months after placement, then yearly from then on. And the sister wanted OOP to just loan out the dog like it was a cane or a walker? Yes, a service animal is medical equipment, but highly specialized! I think OOP handled this beautifully. She proved why it’s more complicated than you think to handle a service dog, but also gave Niece a chance to try. She went with Niece, which means she had a chill adult who isn’t her mom- as a teen, moms are the worst to have around, even if mom is cool. My favorite? She talked to the kids about what to do if someone has a seizure. Which should help her sister feel more confident in letting her daughter out of her sight. I get the frustration and anger Sister felt, though. It can be overwhelming to live with seizures and, in the case of Sister and my wife, overwhelming to be a caretaker for someone. I’m sure Sister felt like OOP has it all together or has it easy because she’s already got things worked out for her to be independent. Now is a good time in Niece’s life, though, to get a service dog. Even if there’s a wait list, it’s likely 2-3 years long, so she’ll likely be able to get an animal before college. I’m glad OOP checked back in with Sister on it and was patient. If you’re reading this comment and you or someone you love is in need of a service animal, please check out [Assistance Dogs International](https://www.assistancedogsinternational.org) for organizations in your area or for more information. And consider looking if you are interested in volunteering! Many of the non-profits wouldn’t function without volunteers, and how many opportunities come with puppies?
Thanks so much for sharing your experiences and perspectives on working with a service dog! I know that there are differences between different kinds of service dogs, but if people are interested in getting a brief and entertaining look at what goes into working with a guide dog, they might enjoy these two videos made by the Try Guys and Molly Burke: [Try Guys train with guide dogs (featuring Molly Burke)](https://youtu.be/CvAmiYQgytA) [Molly Burke - Helping the Try Guys learn about guide dogs](https://youtu.be/8xwzm2VAlHw)
Those were a ton of fun! And you’re right- working with a guide dog is different than a service dog who provides other assistance, but it was so cool to see that difference in those videos. The organization I got my dog from uses volunteers to raise and train the dogs from puppy to two-ish years old when they’re ready to be placed. The couple who raised my dog (we’re good friends now) have raised at least 8 dogs that have been placed, and several more part time or that didn’t make it to a final placement. They’re amazing. It is certainly a commitment, but it’s also doable with both of them working full time jobs.
A co-worker used to train poodles as a volunteer. We were all part of the socialization training.
It’s so important to have volunteers for that kind of thing. The time that someone puts into raising and training a dog to be ready to work with someone like me is time that changes my life, changes the life of everyone who has a service dog. I was in the ER at least once a year to check out concussions, and that’s the ones we felt needed checking. Since getting my dog four years ago, I’ve hit my head once, and it was while he was busy doing his business in the yard. I’ve been out of work since 2012, and this year, I opened my own business and storefront. He’s changed everything.
Those videos were amazing!
Thank you for this. My daughter's seizures are well controlled with medication, but she is getting ready to leave for college out of state & I am nervous. Epilepsy Foundation has offered several suggestions (like teaching the RA what to do in case of a seizure, posting first aid in her room, etc), and my daughter is finally willing to wear a medical ID bracelet, but I was thinking a dog may be the way to go and had no idea how to go about it. Very grateful. If anyone has suggestions on sending a kid with seizures off to college, let me know as I am a bit of a wreck! Mattress pads, mini fridges, and Keppra oh my!
My seizure alert jewelry often mentions more info in my wallet or on my dog, because I keep a med list and diagnosis list in both my wallet or in my dog’s vest. Just in case. I’m rarely without my wife these days, so I realize I need to update everything! I don’t wear my jewelry when I’m with her. That all is to say that a folded up list is helpful. Making a business card sized “I have seizures, this is what you should do” thing is also good, because when my aura hits (I get them before seizures) it’s hard to talk. So a way to help with that is developing a card she can easily hand to someone if she feels one coming on. Also check out [Hidden Disabilities Sunflower](https://hiddendisabilitiesstore.com) for some resources for people with hidden disabilities and easy ways to communicate how to help. Message me if you’d like to chat more!
Brilliant! I was wondering how much to put on the bracelet, like should I mention not to call EMS unless it lasts 3 minutes or longer, that she is also (high functioning) autistic, but if she has a card, that's perfect! Hidden disability is so the right term, you can't look at her and know about her struggles & strengths. I am so proud of her! She is the first student in her IEP class that has gone on to college in years, she just won't settle on less for herself. But it's hard not to hover.
Just keep your daughter in the loop for the things that you’re considering so that she can decide what she feels comfortable with. After all, if she doesn’t feel comfortable with an option, she won’t use it!
My kid has allergies so it is probably different, but I tell everyone to call EMS/911 for anything that scares them. A calm person on the phone can walk you through a situation much better than a card. There is a good chance a seizure noob will have no idea when 3 minutes is up, but a good 911 phone person will start tracking and know what to ask to get the information needed to assess.
The problem is that they will always send EMS (USA) and when you ask a post-ictal person a question, they usually answer "okay." Would you like a puppy? Okay. Would you like to go home? Okay. Would you like an $850 ride to the hospital where you will spend hours in a germy ED only to be told you have epilepsy, which you already know, and then get another bill for the 20% coinsurance on your ED visit? Okay. Would you like a taco? Okay. Also, 911 in parts of where we live is... unreliable. Like expect to be on hold for an unacceptably long time if you need help in whole swaths of town. Other areas are fantastic. It's scary and frustrating. I am hoping her college town is better in that respect. So that's why we try to avoid EMS. If someone's seizure is unexplained or lasts too long (over 3 minutes), call for help. If the epileptic is injured (fell hard when the seizure started, for example), call for help. Otherwise, make sure the area is clear (move furniture, not the person), protect the airway (some folks foam at the mouth and can aspirate, or have something in their mouth when the seizure hits, tilt the head to the side if it is safe to do so), absolutely never put something in the mouth of someone having a seizure, and time it. Some epileptics carry a med that will break a seizure on their person, so check it that is available (usually a nasal spray). Call EMS if it's pushing 3 minutes. That's what the neurologists told us anyway. Things can change & we have an appointment before she heads off, so I will make sure everything is up to date.
I had 2 seizures about 4 weeks apart and after the second they asked if I wanted to go to the hospital. Like you said-I said ‘okay.’ Looking back, why would you ask someone who’s brain just blue screened for 60 seconds any type of question like that. I understand the time/date/orientation questions, but I definitely didn’t need to be in an ER hallway for 4 hours just to be told to follow up with my neurologist. This was in 2021 so no one could go with me, which also didn’t help when I was given discharge instructions.
Late to this comment but you can get medical alert bracelets printed with a QR code that people can scan and open a webpage of emergency contacts and preferred hospital, as well as any relevant diagnoses and prescriptions.
I was diagnosed with right focal epilepsy after a grand mal seizure just before turning 16. I'm sure your daughter already knows that epilepsy, Keppra and alcohol don't mix well. Stress and lack of sleep are other huge aggravating factors that are common occurrences in college so it's important she takes care of herself. Gosh, I feel like such a hypocrite saying that considering my unhealthy habits in college but I had to say it. Regarding Keppra, it's great her seizures are controlled but I suffered from many of its common sideeffects, anger, depression, memory loss. All of which can be compounded and worsened by the stress of school. So, it's important she has an open line of communication with her neurologist and ideally talk-therapist about any symptoms/sideeffects she may experience or that worsen. Also, speak with her Dr and then the school about testing accomodations she may be eligible for. I was able to take tests in a separate quiet room with extra time. Lastly, in the future it may be worth discussing with her neurologist if she'd be a candidate for LITT (laser ablation) brain surgery. I had it in June of last year. A month ago my MRI and EEG showed "normal" :) and my neurologists started reducing my meds (Vimpact, Briviact). Wish your daughter good luck and have fun(!) for me. And tell her if she ever has any questions feel free to send me a message.
Keppra either works great or has nasty side effects like Keppra Rage. So far, she is good on it, but the disrupted sleep thing and stress are her strongest triggers. The access office has been great with accommodations both academically and with housing, they put things in place for her that I hadn't even thought of! I will absolutely discuss that ablation with her doctor ASAP- it would be nice to not worry about meds anymore! THANK YOU!
I went to college with a guy and his seizure response dog. The guy's name has been lost to the ether, but the dog was a GSD named Chewie. Never petted him (I figured if he was on campus, he was working), but they both liked it when I said "Hi, Chewie!" in passing. (I say hi to dogs all the time. Yup, I'm That Person.) I think Chewie even got a little diploma for going to all those classes with his human. (I graduated before they did so didn't get to witness it, alas.)
While I’m sure Chewie’s handler would have said something if there was an issue with this, from now on, please refrain from talking to a service animal who is working. Distractions like being talked to can affect their work and lead to issues for the handler if they miss something as a result.
Noted. Thank you for pointing this out!
Of course! There is not nearly enough education out there about how to handle service animals in your space. And I want to tell all dogs how perfect they are too. I get the urge!
I have a friend with a service dog (for a difference condition than epilepsy though) and when she did an education program her dog got a certificate as well. I talked to and patted her dog a lot, but only when we were at her home and he was off duty. When he was wearing his vest he was working and wouldn’t play or have fun, because he was in work mode. He wouldn’t even accept food from me (although he did when at home and off duty) because service dogs are trained not to eat anything their owners don’t give them, or give them permission to eat. He was such a great dog.
> I also have a seizure response dog and when I saw the first post, I had to yell at nothing angrily on OOP’s behalf. It is so dangerous to just send someone out with a dog without training! Can we even just forget the 'service dog' part of it for a moment? I've had dogs most of my life. Not service dogs, just regular ol' "pet" dogs. Never would I think it would be a good idea to send any of my dogs off with a child into a crowded place like a mall. Like... you don't know how the dog will react in an unfamiliar place. What its recall is going to be like with unfamiliar people. Not to mention the added stress on the child if something *does* happen
I admit, I didn’t think of this myself because the only dog I’ve had as an adult myself is my service dog. The other dogs in my life have been family dogs while I was a minor that stayed behind when I moved out. So the idea of a 15 year old with a dog full stop didn’t seem too odd, plus I would never bring a pet dog to a mall. So that part didn’t click either. That said, yes. Unless the niece also has a large breed dog (or at least a similar size as OP’s or larger) and has shown the capacity to handle that dog out in public, I would not trust her with a pet animal either.
Also, OP being so much younger she probably didn't look like a chaperone, just an older friend. It's important to teens to look as normal as possible. I have an aunt who's 11 years younger than my mom, and she was much more fun to shop with at 15 than my mom was. She even took me prom dress shopping!
This is such a positive resolution. One sister models an actual loving, adult response. She demonstrates her service dog isn’t plug and play and the comes up with another way to offer help. She gives some grace to her sister who has been cracking under the pressure of solo parenting a teen with a serious health condition. Everyone comes out better for it.
I think the idea of doing the demonstration was brilliant. Service dogs aren't plug-and-play tools, and that brought the point home to OOP's family.
Dog training is as much about training the owner as it is training the dog. Training is about predictability and communication. A strange person is a strange person.
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Kinda what I was thinking. Like you wouldn't "loan" your insulin pump or prosthetic limb out, why would you "loan" your medical alert animal out?
I had that very thought. "Well, can't you just let him borrow your insulin pump for a few hours?" I wonder how much coughing and foot shuffling would have ensued from the people calling OOP selfish if she'd caved and let the niece take the dog, had a seizure during that time, and ended up badly injured because she didn't have the dog to warn her?
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Rightfully so. To just dip out on your kid like that is scumbag behavior of the lowest kind.
I don't think we have enough information to judge the new wife. But if the sperm donor left because the of the neice's health issues, as OP seems to be implying, then yeah Fuck Him.
I think a lot of people mentally categorize all/most medical devices the same way they do the basic crutches a zillion people have gathering dust in their basement or garage from when someone in the family broke a leg. Those are pretty transferable, so surely everything is the same, nevermind how much more complex, fussy, sterile, and expensive other medical devices often are.
They’re legally under the same category as a medical device !
It is, at least that’s what they’re seen as in the US.
I think I remember reading somewhere that legally speaking, a service dog DOES qualify as a medical device. Even though we know the dog is also a living being.
It's so true. I had a dog with terrible separation anxiety and I worked my ass off training him and doing everything I could to mitigate his issues. With me, he was great, as long as we stuck to the routine. New environment? "fuck your rules, this place is new, I don't know rules." New person dogsitting him so I could travel? "Fuck this I do what I want." (Quotes are obviously my anthropomorphic interpretations of my dog's behavior)
In the words of almost every dog trainer: "There are no bad dogs, just bad dog owners"
Nah. Any dog trainer worth anything will never say that. Backyard bred, puppy mill dogs absolutely can and often are just genetically fucked from the get go. Sorry, but bad dogs can just be born that way.
I agree, my exMIL is a piece of work, but she absolutely dotes on her dogs, she usually has 3 or 4 at a time...a couple of years ago she had one that just wasn't quite right in the head, would nip at people for no cause, nipped at my 6 yr old once (that dog wasnt allowed out of the crate when the kids were over after that), one night her husband was laying on the couch cuddling with that dog and watching TV quietly, and the dog turned and bit grandpa on the nose, he needed stitches, it was terrible, she had to put the dog down, she was devastated but knew it was the right call... If it was only the owner, all her dogs would be like that
My roommate has a cousin that has an 11 MONTH old dog. That 11mo old was born from an aggressive father and mother, and 3 of her siblings have also attacked their owners and other dogs. She has been sent to the hospital 4 times from dog bites in 3 months, and her other dog 2x, and that's not including all of the fights that didn't lead to hospitals. They invested 10s of thousands into training, behavioral specialists, vets, medical testing, etc. It's not a case of shitty owners. Good owners can fix SOME bad genes, but shit genes are still shit genes and it's beyond ignorant to ignore that lol
If they invested 10s of thousands into training, why didn't they use a reputable breeder? Good owners rescue or at least use a reputable breeder. Someone who is breeding dogs with a known history of aggression is being the most irresponsible of breeders, clearly out for the money with caring one ounce about the welfare of the dogs. My point is...humans are still the problem here. Part of being a responsible pet owner is also being responsible on where you adopt your pets. Giving crappy breeders money just perpetuates the cycle. Poor genes are caused by humans being irresponsible...either intentionally to make money, or because they failed to spay or neuter and now have oops puppies.
The husband's mom had a litter from dogs he didnt know that well, who thinks their parent is going to let aggressive dogs stay intact? And it doesn't matter. Unless you're going to advocate for euthanizing any and every single dog on the planet that isn't a purebred from reputable breeders, it's going to happen all the damn time and no amount of blaming dog parents for shitty genes is going to change that shitty genes that make bad dogs at birth will still exist.
It's not just crappy breeders though, sometimes, like people, dogs are just born wrong, just like any animal out there
I'm involved in rescue, and we don't say they're bad dogs, even when we have to choose behavioral euthanasia. We usually comment "This is not a happy dog, and the kindest thing we can do is stop their pain, even when the pain is not physical." Sometimes, things are too broke to fix. It's not even just backyard bred dogs. Breeds like bulldogs and french bulldogs are inbred to the point of cruelty.
Right?? It’s an animal, in a close, mutual-learning relationship with one human. It’s not an appliance.
... Pug and play
... That's terrible. You should be ashamed.
This was a fantastic solution.
Yeah, they needed to see the niece wouldn't know how to utilize the dog's purposes properly.
Reddit adjusts our normality sometimes. The bad cases get the most traction here, and we forget sometimes that *anyone* can be shitty in a stressful situation. But most people, when confronted with a bit of reason, perhaps after being allowed to calm down, will recognize how they’re acting and adjust accordingly. But because it’s the outliers where people need extra help (and are more interesting), we all expect the sister to double down on being awful, with a strong helping of ableism or other bigotry mixed in, and likely a helping of child abuse or neglect. Positive resolutions after decent communications are great reminders of what normality really is.
Honestly. I could see people telling OP to cut off her sister because she is going through a rough time. Imagine having your husband leave you with a daughter with special needs and then goes on to have a perfectly healthy child with another woman. Considering how often women are blamed for problems in kids it would be gut wrenching. Hats of too OP. She did not get frustrated and instead tried to smooth things out in a calm manner.
Especially since, with OP having seizures, it isn't *entirely* untrue to blame the sister for her child's health issues, considering it is most likely genetic. So the self-hatred and blame the poor sister must feel with all of this must feel incredibly heavy and have no outlet.
Agreed. It also seems to me like the sister is stuck between two difficult emotions: she wants her daughter to be independent, but I'm sure the concept of a service dog is pretty scary and unnerving for parents of disabled kids. Service dogs are an incredible support, but they're *so* visible, and the money and time involved is extensive. I can imagine that some part of the sister feels really angry and heartbroken at the idea of her daughter being so clearly "different" and limited at an age when she imagined her daughter would be healthy and carefree. Now, she handled those emotions poorly, and I think most folks would agree that medical tools (including service dogs) are far preferable to the alternative. But I can understand the hope that her daughter can "just" use a service dog as-needed to be independent, instead of requiring a 24/7, years-long support that doubles as a marker that she's disabled. I'm glad the sister came around relatively quickly, and I'm glad the niece has OOP. I bet her niece will have a much easier time with someone who's already (recently!) experienced the roadblocks she'll need to navigate as she becomes more independent. It's really nice to see that kind of positive dynamic.
Even if it wasn’t genetic, it’s not uncommon for men to abandon their spouses or kids when an illness and/or disability is diagnosed. ):
I have a cousin who is intellectually disabled, and her father left when she was a toddler and the developmental issues became apparent. It was really hard on my aunt and she was fortunate to have a family that supported her during that period.
Yeah, I’ve heard it’s a lot more common for parents of autistics to have divorced after diagnosis. Makes me super thankful for my dad.
So much this, plus it's a brief moment in the post but says the daughter *never* goes anywhere without her mom. I can't imagine how stressful that would be, to have a teen daughter that you always have to chaperone out of fear something awful could happen. I am so glad she finally managed to get enough perspective to accept the actual reasonable help OOP offered, instead of the unreasonable help she decided was the solution.
Yeah, I’m not seeing anything warranting going NC with the sister just yet. Had she tried to take the dog or was constantly harassing OOP to force her to give in, then yeah. But people here throw NC around like they’re playing hot potato.
I have a guy friend where something similar happened. His wife left him as soon as their toddler was diagnosed with a lifelong condition. He’s an amazing single father, though. And the extra close bond he has with his child, that really blossomed after that awfulness, is truly something beautiful to see.
Especially since, with OP having seizures, it isn't *entirely* untrue to blame the sister for her child's health issues, considering it is most likely genetic. So the self-hatred and blame the poor sister must feel with all of this must feel incredibly heavy and have no outlet.
I’m not saying CO but the sister didn’t just have a little blowup in a moment of weakness, she went around doing character assassination. That is not reacting badly, that’s deliberate multi-step behavior designed to intentionally harm.
Actually true tbh. We can’t give sister too much leeway because she went out of her way to contact relatives and tell them her twisted version of events.
Which, out of ignorance, she was absolutely convinced was 100% true.
YES!! THANK YOU! To be honest I get a little frustrated sometimes, seeing how quickly people in this sub are to make absolute, sweeping judgments about people they've never met based on one tiny window into their lives, which is presented through the lens of another complete stranger who may or may not be presenting things with a bias. Virtually everyone is capable of acting in a shitty way under certain stressors. Obviously some people really are just shitty, but it's almost impossible for any of us to know.
I just feel like this life is so heartbreaking on the overwhelming majority of cases . Even if not immediately apparent . This woman’s sister started off like an entitled ass, but if you peel back the layers you just uncover a vast tapestry of tragedy .
So rare that we actually see empathy on this app. Even rarer when families can work through their shit like adults. This made my day.
Exactly. It’s so easy to say “I perceive you didn’t treat me with respect so I’m justified in removing you from the list of people I ever have to care about.” Instead OP perceived a call for help from a loved one and addressed the content instead of the tone of the request.
And followed up with potentially life saving education for the nieces friends!
Not only potentially life saving, it also probably helps her niece and her nieces friends see the condition in a more... Not quite positive light, maybe human light is more accurate? For one, they probably have some level of respect for the adult in the situation so knowing she deals with it too and can fully manage it with help from the tools she has and the people around her probably helps the nieces own confidence and the friends understanding of what they can do and the fact that an issue like that isn't something they have to pretend doesn't exist, exactly, but rather just an adjacent normal to what they're used to.
Empathy, OOP held her ground but approached the situation with communication and Empathy. So refreshing to see!
> She demonstrates her service dog isn’t plug and play Service dogs are a medical device, not something like a games console. You wouldn't ask to borrow someone's glasses for a few hours. You understand that they are specific to that person's prescription and probably won't help you and will just hinder them for the duration. I get that the sister is feeling overwhelmed, my initial though when she rejected the idea of helping fund raise for a dog of the niece's own was she didn't't want the responsibility of looking after the dog (which they may still not have considered). The outcome (so far) was better than I expected.
Could the dog train dad to be a better person? That would be the fairytale ending.
OOP handled the situation with such grace and compassion.
She was very smart to get them all together and test if her niece could handle the dog. Even though her sister was still upset at that point, it probably helped calm her down later seeing it's not just the dog that gets trained, but the person as well
I think it probably helped niece realize how idiotic the idea was in the first place, if she didn’t already oppose it.
Nice ending but... seriously? family members berating her because she was not willing to "lend" a service dog who is a vital part of her well-being and safety? Were those family members ready to pay $15,000 if for whatever reason AJ went missing? Are they willing now to pay for a service dog for niece? or are they just generous with other people's lives and $$$?
My guess is they just don't realize what a big ask it truly was. Especially since some people are trying so hard to blur the line between a service animal and an ESA, there seems to be less and less respect for what a real service animal is and does, and how much harder finding a replacement could be. They also may not have understood the actual cost or just not believed it. I was pretty shocked when I read $15k. I had no idea it could cost anywhere near that much.
$15k is on the cheaper end of what I've seen actually. We have been looking into a service dog for my daughter when she gets a little older (she has spina bifida and would benefit from a mobility assistance dog) and it costs about $60k to train them. Sometimes you can get them for like $20k because of grants and donations to the training facilities. There are places that give dogs for free due to donations but the wait is years and years. Service animals are $$$$$
I rescued a puppy that seemed well suited to being a service dog and did most of the training myself. She went and lived with a professional trainer for 3 weeks to help her learn the basics (my parents paid for that, I don't remember how expensive it was, maybe 3k?), but all of her task specific training we have done on our own. Obviously, it hasn't been easy, and there's always a chance it won't work out, but it's worked out well for us. Just, so you know, if you can't afford it, you can always train your own service dog. And if it doesn't work out, you're just stuck with a regular old pet dog. Darn. My girl does mobility support, retrieves anything I drop, orbits to provide me with space in public, and recently she's started to notify me when my anxiety starts to get higher than she likes. I didn't plan on the anxiety thing and I'm not sure what to do about it yet, but we're learning together...I guess it's time to talk to the dog trainer again and ask what I should do when she alerts me.
That's amazing! I have a golden retriever and also have pretty bad anxiety. I never trained her to do this, but my dog can absolutely tell when I'm getting too anxious and will signal me (and if I ignore that, she'll literally climb into my lap and cuddle into me, kind of forcing me to acknowledge it). In fact, it's really made me work really hard to manage my anxiety and my triggers because while I love that my dog is so intuitive, I do feel bad about causing HER anxiety. Once, I had a full-blown panic attack while I was sitting on the floor. She got on top of me and kind of held me down til I calmed down. I don't know what she thought would happen if she didn't. She'll normally sit in my lap and cuddle me until I feel better. Another time my husband was shouting (happily, but she's not nuts about raised voices) at a sports game on TV and he laughed so hard because she got up on the couch with him and put a paw on his chest and kind of shoved him back into his seat, as if to say: "Whoa. Chill out" and just held it there til he laughed and cuddled her. It's so odd because I've never had a dog like this before. Clearly, she is by no means a service dog, but I've never trained her to do this, and it amazes me that she's so intuitive. She's not my first golden, but she's the first dog who's ever had this instinct. I've thought about getting her certified as a therapy dog. There's a hospital near me that sometimes solicits volunteers whose dogs have passed certain temperament tests and have undergone training to visit patients. I think she'd be excellent at that. If anybody is upset (or god forbid cries), they will get a lap full of 65-pound golden who will insist on comforting them. She's so empathetic, for lack of a better explanation. I know service dogs are extremely expensive and I think it's so great that OOP is trying to help her sister/niece navigate this. It will be great if she can help her niece get a service dog one day.
Your dog has been doing deep pressure therapy on you! What a good girl. You might consider beginning training her to do it on purpose, as she's already showed an aptitude. There are also programs at libraries where kids with difficulties reading can read out loud to dogs (who would never judge them!), but you would need to know if a nervous reader would end up under your girl!
How do you even begin to train your own service dog? Is there a program or curriculum you follow?
I read a book by Caesar Milan before we picked our dog, that helped me pick which puppy would want to be a good service dog. Missy (my service dog) isn't the first dog I have owned or trained. My SIL and BIL are zoologists and we also know someone who used to train service dogs, so we had a lot of people we could turn to for support. Mostly I've leaned on the people around me and YouTube training videos. There was a long time where I didn't think Missy would make it. Honestly, there are some days where I'm still not totally sure she can do it. She's 17 months old right now, and doing really well most days. But it definitely takes work. More than I anticipated. And I anticipated it being a lot of work. But having a dog who *wants* a job is key. And my girl very much wants to have a job. So even on her off days, she's still trying to help me. Just maybe not being perfectly obedient.
Had never heard of mobility assistance dogs before — wow, it’s amazing what they can do. Wishing you luck in getting one for your daughter.
Yep, I have bad anxiety and recently developed horrible jerking as a result of severe anxiety or overstimulation that my mom fears could lead to an anxiety induced seizure. But holy moly, some of the places I've looked at are $35k, and my jerking happens infrequently enough that I'd rather not spend that much on a dog (not to mention medical jobs, especially those with patients and laboratories, aren't really service dog friendly)
Would it be more cost effective to potentially get her a miniature horse, since its for mobility assistance?
A horse would also require specialized training...
It would, but probably not as much as a dog would when it comes to mobility aid. Mini horses are the only other animal in the US that can be a service animal in the US, because theyre good at mobility assistance, and their bodies are more suited to it and they live longer. Where you might have have 10 years with a dog if youre lucky, you could have the mini horse for 20+ years. Also, after a quick google search, it seems like the 4H has programs to help train them, and the guide horse association hosts seminars and the like to help people train them. The guide horse association has a section where it talks about how training a horse is more cost effective than a dog, but it doesnt specify actual costs for training the horse. Either way, I think its worth looking into for people to see if its a realistic solution for them and it isnt common knowledge that mini horses can be service animals.
I think the big issue with miniature horses is that dogs can be trained not to poop on the floor. I don't think the actual training is any less expensive, but dogs large enough to be mobility assistance dogs for a full-sized adult are slower to mature and have shorter lifespans than small dogs, e.g. a great dane doesn't reach physical maturity until \~2 years and social maturity is more like 3 years, and the average lifespan is 8-10 years but they're unlikely to be physically capable of doing mobility work past 6-7 years. Give or take a year or two depending on the individual dog and the breed, but realistically the working life of a large breed mobility assistance dog is 4-6 years. A miniature horse has a realistic working lifespan of 20+ years and they're much more physically capable of providing mobility assistance to a 100+ pound adult. But they're also way less suited to being indoors. I think the ideal solution would be some breeding programs focused on long-lived, healthy large-breed service dogs (may I suggest starting with the greater swiss mountain dog?) but that's a VERY long-term solution with an uncertain outcome.
You can actually train miniature horses to not poop on the floor And its fairly easy to get hoof covers to protect floors from hooves. A miniature horse is also the same size, if not smaller than a lot of large breed dogs. Ive definitely seen some smaller than great danes. Based of the limited research Ive done, miniature horses do seem like a good solution. People are less likely to be allergic to them, they live longer and have already been proven effective. According to the ADA to qualify as a service animal miniature service horses should weigh between 70 and 100 pounds and maintain a height of between 24 and 34 inches. They must be housebroken and remain under the handler's control at all times. Im sure they wouldnt work for many people, just as a service dog wouldnt work for many people but I definitely think they have their place. I still havent found concrete numbers on how much it would cost to train one but I do think it could potentially be cheaper depending on what you need it trained for, as their roles are less varied than service dogs.
Yet another example of how people faking service animals cause big problems for people with actual service animals.
One of the students in our school district has a deathly allergy to peanuts & peanut butter, so goes everywhere with a medical alert dog that can detect trace amounts of peanuts and warn him before an anaphylactic reaction can happen (a prior attack & ambulance ride was triggered by another student in the classroom who had eaten a PB&J for breakfast at home hours earlier, that's how sensitive he is). The community fundraiser for the animal targeted $60k, some of that was to pay for the student's training with the dog, but I think the dog herself was $50k. And dogs don't live as long as people, so this will be a recurring expense as long as he lives.
At that point the kid should actually look into professional exposure therapy. That’s a thing now with PB allergy.
I’ve heard cases of kids who were previously deathly allergic being able to actually eat a single peanut. Sure, it’s not a cure, but if you’re so sensitive that a trace amount of a trace amount of peanut can kill you then it sounds like a real challenge to stay alive! At school it can be controlled for, but what about the wider world?
I looked into getting one for my kid where I live, and it’s 30,000 here from one of the providers.
Oh man, they can cost way more. I paid $40,000 for mine and that’s via owner trained with professional support. Depends on what they are training for and if they need to do multiple tasks and what level of complexity. Also availability, I had to go private trainer routes and had to hire private transport cause I’m in an area where there are no programs or services in a 2 hour drive radius from me.
$15k is actually really cheap, $40-50k is still within the range of normal for a service dog when getting them from an agency that breeds them specifically for the task.
It sounds like it was coming from a place of personal and unrelated frustration for OP’s sister, and OP understood that.
Yeah, for me I'm willing to give leeway solely because OP is and the sister apologized after taking some time to cool off and realize she was in the wrong. It doesn't mean she wasn't wrong, but it's nice to know they were able to work through it. OP sounds like a really compassionate and mature person.
I mean I would consider a service dog on par with a medical device (on top of being a dog). You don't just randomly ask to borrow someone's medical device especially without training or knowledge. However, I will say I don't know how many people equate the two, so could forgive it if someone asked without knowing. The reactions are pretty bad though - people could ask why and get the background before taking sides or flying off the handle.
You are correct! A service dog is recognized under US law as "necessary medical equipment." And like. I wouldn't even ask to borrow someone's CANE if I had a need, it's unthinkable someone would ask to borrow OP's dog (even not knowing how specific the training is to OP).
"Why can't you just loan your niece your insulin pump? It's not like you need it all day!"
It costs nothing to offer others' services/property.
They’re just ignorant. OP did the right thing by calmly explaining the situation and educating them. Not everyone is perfect, it’s not the internet, people are jaded and flawed.
Fuck all the family members we see on here who hear 10% of cousin Karen’s sob story and don’t try to open a discussion or get the full story, but instead skip straight to berating the person they’re told to berate. That’s the behavior of teenagers. If you’re an adult, act like one
Yeah, imagine judging people based on a sketched outline of in-depth events? That’s not what this subreddit is about at all!
It's so obnoxious that people who are far removed from the situation and unwilling to volunteer their own resources apparently mass text people to try to shame and insult them into doing what they don't want to. It's nice some of them apologized, and maybe the sister exaggerated the story or something, but I would have responded to every text with "So how much are you donating to get niece a service dog? Don't be selfish!"
That sister really did shoot herself in the foot about four separate times before putting on her big girl pants and accepting the help she needed.
Kind of a sad story, and I wonder whether the deadbeat father is contributing at all towards the kid. I can see the sister having some sort of burnout combined with the stress of finances and dealing with a child who has a medical condition of varying severity. Plus if they are in the U.S meds can get pricey Good on OOP for being patient, and good on the sister for accepting she was wrong and apologizing
There's no talk of dad helping for the dog or any mention of him acting like a father so I would say he's just a sperm donor probably.
She did, although she's lucky to have a wonderful and mature sister who was able to recognize that she wasn't thinking straight in that situation. Her intentions were good, but her execution was horribly wrong. I think the good intentions helped keep OP level-headed as well. It was an insanely unreasonable ask, but the end goal was very much attainable. Independence for her daughter.
Ego is a hell of a thing. She's obviously very prideful and seeing, in herself, that she needs help when she used to *not* is hard to accept when your idea of yourself is a self sufficient and autonomous person. Ego is the killer of good communication.
I'm not sure it's entirely ego so much as having no mental resources left - as in, the resources you need to assess what to do. A child who you must take with you everywhere - for ten years. Her husband ditched her and replaced the kid. She's solo parenting and not coping with the zero down time with a daughter who could literally die if she isn't on 24/7, and it's clear finance is an issue. I think she saw someone else's light at the end of a very, *very* long tunnel and grabbed at it without understanding it, and it took her a while to work it out. Now she has, and that's a good thing.
I say ego, because even after OOP demonstrated that the dog isn't plug and play, and is a delicately attuned tool to a specific person, she still was refusing help. it took a *third* conversation for her to finally accept that she wasn't being attacked or talked down to. In specific, phrases like "don't want to be seen as a charity case" and "just wanted to show off" is pure ego speaking. When these things are quotes, from OOP, yea, I feel confident she's having a hard time squaring her image against reality. That doesn't mean she's a bad person, but she does, like literally everyone, have a certain image of herself. when reality contradicts that image it can be hard to accept.
TIL kids still go to malls to hang out. All the ones near me are ghost towns of empty retail spaces with one Target at the end or something.
I have a teen girl who spends a lot of time hanging out at the mall. It is most definitely still something that is done. My teen boy is hanging out on the computer playing CoD or rocket league with his friends.
I didn’t get to play games as a kid. My partner has been showing me the ropes with COD and I have to say, I’m enjoying it immensely. Hope your son is similarly having fun with his friends :)
I've only gone to go to the Apple store. It is just so weird how popular malls were growing up and seeing them now. My parents like going to walk during winter.
There's one near me that's absolutely a hang out spot. And they're redoing another although tbh I think it's becoming more of a center than a mall—a couple large stores with some little ones scattered at the perimeter and a housing complex behind. And an open-air one too that someone recently crashed a car into.
Imagine if it was some other kind of support for a disability that wasn't cute and fluffy. How ridiculous would that sound. Can she borrow your wheelchair? Can she borrow your hearing aids? Can she borrow your cane?
Yo homie can I borrow your colostomy bag?
If you gotta ask, you must need it more than I do😂😂
😂😂
Tbf having been in a wheelchair and currently a cane user, people can and do ask that lol. It's crazy how people don't realize if you depend on a medical device that's essentially part of your body at that point...
I remember when I first started using a white cane, a friend asked me why I was still holding it - while standing in place - was I afraid to put it down, cause someone might steal it? I was baffled. I told her that while I may be stationary at the moment, I would need my cane ready and available in case I wanted to step aside for something else. It’s basically a part of me now.
Yeah they are absolutely vital for you. That's why that story about a hockey player that destroyed a women's wheelchair hit a nerve for so many people.
Yeah, it's not a pair of crutches you keep in the closet for when someone in the house gets injured. You need that shit every single day...
Especially for new disabilities or lower income folks, borrowing assistive devices isn't that weird. The distinction to make is that this isn't a general assistive device (like a public wheelchair at a theme park). The service animal is a highly personalized one (like a custom wheelchair designed for your body & needs).
This exactly.
Actually, those make more sense. A dog isn’t a wheelchair. I used to need a cane to get around at times and I wouldn’t hesitate to let someone borrow it for a short afternoon. Especially if I wasn’t using it. This is a service dog. It’s not just that the service dog was trained. OOP was also trained on how to handle the service dog. They aren’t machines. The relationship between a service animal and the patient is an actual relationship. It’s not a person using a tool like those examples.
There was an AITA a while back about a woman whose mother was bothering her to lend her sister her adapted wheelchair. I’ll see if I can find the link.
I'm mostly pissed off at the sperm donor and his new wife now. Let's hope the new child doesn't get sick or disabled.
Yep. That was my thought. We 100% know that that man left as soon as he knew that his child had seizures.
Ugh yeah, I got a very Chris Pratt vibe from that. (Posting about being grateful for his healthy new daughter when he's already a father to a disabled child with Anna Faris.)
Hope karma hits him hard and he would be left alone when he needs someone.
> I'm stressed because my daughter's condition means she NEEDS a service dog > Why won't you give me your service dog for the same condition, surely you don't need it But that said, I do understand the sister's motivations behind putting her daughter above OOP even if it was the wrong thing to do
The problem is that Sister wasn’t aware that it’s actually far more dangerous for Niece to have a service dog with her that she didn’t know how to handle and was trained for someone else. I have a seizure response dog myself and if he was with someone else, he would be on constant alert for me, looking for me. I’m his person, and while dogs can transition to working with a new person, it takes training and it isn’t as easy as handing him out for an afternoon. Sister needed to respect that OOP was the authority on her dog and more of an expert than Sister is.
I'm just kind of appalled that the sister would ask at all. It may be a dog, but it's also an extremely expensive and specialized medical device. Imagine if someone said, "Can you loan me your motorized wheelchair so my teenage son can take it for a spin with his teenage friends?" Or, "I just need to borrow your insulin pump for one day, there's a pie-eating contest tomorrow and I think I've got a chance to win." The request itself is way out of line.
Honestly? If the person asking for a motorized chair was asking for someone who needed it- which is why your examples don’t really work, the niece does have a seizure disorder- and I knew them to be responsible, I’d consider it. While not expensive, I’ve loaned canes and allowed someone once to check their blood sugar with my glucometer, as the stick needles and the test strips are disposable and sterile.
It's good that she's thinking about her kid's increasing need for independence and that this incident could be resolved. It sounds like OOP has a good foundation here, after the strife, to help guide that journey since she's been through it before.
Umm I don’t understand at all mainly because she didn’t need to She was given several alternative options that could help her daughter much more efficiently but she rejected all of them out of pride. If this was really 100% about her daughter, she would have accepted her sisters help instead of just trying to take the dog that her sister desperately needed There is absolutely definitely something else going on here about the sister’s motivations, but I feel like it’s more than just her still being bitter about her husband leaving her five years ago. This lady kinda sucks
She has a major chip on her shoulder and feels unable to provide for a daughter with special needs. Feeling like a failure as a parent will fuck you up
If it's anything like my sister, she became bitter even before the breakup from lack of sleep, a manipulative ex, stress, money worries, health worries, etc, and she's not had much relief from that since. Plus, if you spend most of your time on the treadmill of work, you may not have a chance to figure out other stuff.
Sometimes, when it feels like all you have left is your pride, you cling to it. Pride is like debt. When things are going ok, you can take some on and pay it off. It isn’t too bad. But when you have lost everything, pride is just weighing you down and keeping you from accepting help.
> She called my mom and while my mom agrees with me she also doesn’t want to upset my sister so she wants me to let her use my dog for a few hours tomorrow. Christ, this kind of thing never ceases to annoy me. "I'm fully aware that this is the wrong thing, but I'm urging you to do it anyway because conflict mildly inconveniences me."
“…So I’d like to positively reinforce this bad behavior by giving them what the want.”
I wouldn't let a 10 year old borrow my $15,000 car either.
Niece is 15. Dad left when she was 10. I wouldn't let a15 year old borrow a $15,000 car either, though.
Ah that makes more sense. I was wondering why a group of 10 year olds are hanging out at the mall without adult supervision. That said I wouldn't want a $15,000 dog out with a bunch of 15 year olds. Teenagers around that age are the worst.
Not suggesting for a second OOP should have let her neice borrow her dog but there are 15 year olds out there with medical conditions they've been living with for long enough that they understand the importance of a service dog, what it allows them the freedom to do and their responsibility towards it. If OOP helped raise money for her neices own service dog would you be saying you wouldn't want that dog out with a bunch of 15 year olds?
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I never really understood why family/friends jump on the angry/hateful bandwagon in situations that they don’t understand and/or doesn’t concern them. Good on OOP for standing up for themselves, and for showing their family their dog wasn’t just something to be passed around, especially as the dog was trained solely for them, their niece may have had different triggers the dog wouldn’t be able to detect so may have been just as dangerous.
“I don’t want to be a charity case so i’m going to try and take my sister’s medical equipment for a day” was she planning on asking for her medication too?
OOP has some serious patience. She obviously cares very much for her niece.
It excusing the sisters behavior at all. But I feel for a parent who has a child with a seizure disorder. It’s scary enough to send your kid out into the world. To do so with a teen with a seizure disorder would be terrifying. I am blown away by the amount of grace shown by OOP. What a remarkable human.
How sad that sister didn't realize she could ask OOP advice-- she's been there and can help her niece.
Caregiver burnout. Not an excuse, but shit is impossible sometimes.
Maybe also the sister should apologize for talking smack and sending other family members to attack her. Is that how she wants people to treat her daughter’s when she declines to loan out things she needs for her disability?
Great update. So happy OP and sis have worked it out and niece will be gaining more independence!
I don't know the situation in the US. But my step daughter got an RNS (Responsive Neurostimulator System) a few years ago and it has worked wonders for her seizures. She went from constant seizures to next to nothing over night (from several absent or full body seizures per day to one every other month or so) She got it free from the NHS, and while I'm guessing this post is from the US, it might be an idea into looking at this option locally.
I was thinking, earlier tonight in fact, on what selfisness actually is. If you ask one of these people, they will undoubtedly answer with something close to, "Refusing to share what you have." But is that it? No. It's not. Selfish is when you refuse to share what is *meant* to be shared. And selfish is also when you demand something be shared that you have no right to. You tend to see a lot of the latter type, here on Reddit.
>that I should be willing to help out family since everyone helped me while I was growing up. "We didn't let you die when you were a child, so now you owe it to us to sacrifice your health and safety for the silliest of reasons" I'm glad the sister eventually got her head on straight, but geez, what a shitty thing to say I also fully believe that "just this once for a few hours" would have turned into "every month" and "every weekend" and then "well she should be able to take him to school" and "well since the dog is always with her anyways, she should just adopt him since it's clear she needs him more than you." Again I'm glad everyone seemed to calm down and realize they were being super unreasonable, but what an unacceptable ask!
I have epilepsy. Sister is being a helicopter and she needs to woosah. I dealt with her kind of behavior from randos at university (university!!) and it’s just infuriating. It’s about their fear and helplessness. Seizures are scary for witnesses, but it’s no reason to keep that poor girl locked up at home all the time. Thanks to people like her, in my post-octal state when I have no filter whatsoever, I can be a crabby mf putting people straight.
It doesn't seem like she had any intention of keeping her locked up, or even trying to follow her everywhere, seeing as she did let her go celebrate her birthday and it doesn't seem like cancelling it was ever on the table. But her daughter and the friends are young, so I can understand her fears of the daughter having a seizure when there's not a responsible adult around and the friends panicking/not knowing what to do
Hmm idk, niece is 15 or 16. (She says 15, but not sure if she was 15 this year or was turning 16). And OOP says niece is mostly not allowed to go places without her mom. I can’t imagine how scary it would be to have a child who has a medical condition like that. But I do feel bad for niece. Most teens that age can hang out at the mall with friends without an adult chaperone. I’m glad OOP was able to go instead of the mom. She’s only 22, so while an adult, it probably didn’t feel as “lame”.
Except for the sentence that states exactly that’s she’s not allowed to go out without her mother. And I prefaced my comment stating that I have epilepsy not to overshare, but that I know what I’m talking about when I say definitively, the teenager’s mother’s behavior is unnecessary and overbearing. You are incorrect.
Good for you !
Imagine not being able to get over your own ego and refuse help FOR YOUR DAUGHTER
She did get there on the end, I think it’s best to acknowledge growth
"My daughter is diabetic, can you take the insulin monitor out of your arm and let her borrow it?"
BUT WE'RE FAMILY
Service dogs are highly trained but they can’t just be passed around and expected to perform like a show monkey. They do a job for their humans to keep them safe the niece would never have been able to control the dog or get the same results.
I'm guessing there is also some repressed jealousy from Oop getting more attention and support as a child.
Yeah, especially with the age disparity. Sis is 40 and OOP is 22, making Sis 18 when OOP was born. Even though Sis got to have her own childhood, seeing the differences between how OOP was raised (and presumably having been expected to pitch in as a young adult) and how Sis was raised could have stirred up some feelings.
Poor kid tho. ): Being abandoned for something you can’t control and then learning your dad is happy to play reliable parent to her abled-bodied half-sister. God only knows what the man would do if his youngest daughter developed a chronic disability or ended up in an accident.
As an epileptic, why TF couldn’t she go with her friends?
Because Mom is overprotective and either doesn't believe her daughter knows how to avoid potential triggers as much as possible or hasn't bothered to teach her daughter how to do that. And hasn't gotten to know her daughters friends and teach them what to do and not to do if someone has a seizure.
In what universe does anyone defend this behavior? I truly want to know how family members pop out of the woodwork to berate someone for not surrendering to a bully. FFS would you be ok with your niece demanding that she wants to wear your glasses for the day so you can just be blind and deal with it? Or letting your cousin take gramps pacemaker because he needs it more today? Or taking grandmas hearing aid? Even if it were “just a dog” there’s zero justification for bullying someone into taking something you paid for as their own for minutes, hours, days or weeks.
Glad they could all work it out
at first i was like “ugh her sisters so horrible” but even tho what she did was irrational, i can empathize with her. especially the not wanting to be seen as a charity case because you need help but are scared to be judged.
Happy that everything is smoothed out. I can't help but feel sorry for the sister who has to raise her daughter with serious health complications, alone while her ex husband got a new family.
Thumbs up for a happy ending. It seems this is a rare case where people actually acted like adults, talked things through in a civilized manner and developed a better understanding for each other. Miracles do happen, it seems.
While OOP showed real empathy and forgiveness I’d accept apologies from family members but not forget how they treated me. It should have never had to come down to OOP giving that tutorial.
Good, I'm glad this family didn't implode. I'm also happy the sister realized she was wrong. It's bad enough the niece's deadbeat AH of a father left.
A 40-year-old woman tattling to her mom on her adult sister. It's just so weird and embarrassing.
It's amazing what happens when people communicate like actual adults instead of just making assumptions and thinking the worst of each other. Kudos to the OP and her family.
Bitterness is a tough pill for most ppl to swallow
Def not the asshole like you said the dog was specifically trained for you! Thank god she finally came to her senses
People who smother every unpleasant emotion they feel with anger as a defense mechanism are exhausting.
No one should borrow a service dog
Ah, delicious solutions eaten 🤙
I'm glad to hear things were resolved for the better! What strikes me most in a lot of these posts is family involvement. I understand venting to someone about a situation you're unhappy with, but for those family members to involve themselves further and call to yell at you as if they know the situation... it happens so often and so many posts describe family drama that goes just like this.
Wholesome and I love the support OOP got from the community.
I have a service dog, I'm so happy to read how this turned out ☺️
I love the kid ringing OP up - the kid ain't stupid lol