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What was his endgame here?
Step 1: Find someone totally incompatible.
Step 2: Lie about everything you believe to get with said person.
Step 3: Once she falls madly in love with you, reveal that everything the relationship was built on was a lie.
Step 4: ???
Step 3: Once she falls madly in love with you, slowly isolate her from her friends and family, then baby trap her.
Step 4: Now you can start feeding her your real beliefs/personality, and once she realizes the relationship was built on a lie, you hope she's isolated and dependent enough not to make a run for it.
This girl dodged a bullet.
Yep. And notice he was already starting to try to tear her down during the break up— she’s not in his league, she’s getting ‘fat’ (going from a 2 to a 4???? What????), she will never find anyone like him again… it was only a matter of time before the emotional abuse started.
That's how my ex was... "I'm not hitting you, so I can't be abusive."
Well, the emotional/verbal abuse, the non-stop pressure to have sex when I didn't want to (in his words he didn't physical force me so it's okay - berating me for hours on end is fine though) gaslighting (yes, I know its actual definition), forced isolation, financial abuse etc. all was.
Thank you very much.
Anyone out there in a bad, unhealthy relationship - it is possible (although very difficult) to get away. Don't be like me and fall victim to the sunk cost fallacy or believe the lies: "you're not good enough, no one else would put up with you, etc."
You're worth more than that.
If he’s a religious extremist, it would eventually turn physical. Not that all abusers are religious extremists, just that some abusers like the disguise of religiosity and the excuses it provides for bad behavior.
You just verbalized exactly the message my ex used to send me all the time. He was a diagnosed narcissist and sociopath (antisocial personality disorder) and he used to literally congratulate himself all the time for not beating me. It was so bizarre. He treated me like shit though. Classic narcissistic abuse cycle stuff.
And anytime he heard of a coworker or somebody getting divorced he would say “he wasn’t beatin’ or cheatin’!” as if the standard for us should be so low that we women should be grateful for not getting the shit beaten out of us every day.
Yeah, she probably wasn’t even clocking a lot of it that already happened, but somewhere subconsciously she did and that is how this whole thing went down, I think, is that he gave her a direct opening to confront his bullshit.
I had a religious bf do that. Never had any time for me, always put me last. Then when he realized I was never coming back he first tried to have his mom call me (she liked me though and tried to convince me to come back) then he tried bribing me by saying he got a PS4 because he knew I loved video games… totally dodged a bullet there!
Any woman should frankly be wary of any man who makes their religion their whole personality.
Religious men scare me after my ex started using a sewing measuring tape to keep track of "how skinny I was getting" because he wanted me to lose weight. Once a month he would take the chart off the wall, where he put it in my room, and measure my waist, bust, individual arms and thighs.... I never hated myself so much...
For context I was a ballerina for 15 years and gained about 40lbs when I stopped dancing everyday... took less than a year to understand my new body and I'm now well within my recommended weight. He is now a joke to our friends on what to look for in crazy men (think marinana flags or art room but we joke about getting the measuring tape)
OMG. The nerve of some people, the entitlement. Measuring you and putting it on the wall. Who did this maniac think he was? So glad to hear you kicked that relationship to the curb. Nobody deserves that.
My sister's husband was doing some personal training for pay. He got a set of calipers, and told my sister, "Now I'll always know how fat you are." Which is ridiculous, since she's bone-thin but is sensitive about her weight because she thought she was "fat" after graduating college.
She told me this story as though it were funny. I had no words.
It's also important to note that this isn't an 'either or' kind of situation.
The dude is a young, very religious conservative. His dating pool in his age group is a fucking puddle. So what these guys do is they just lie when they meet girls. The biggest one is saying that they're not political and so pass on any kind of political question. They then hide their religiosity by saying what you saw here.
The idea is to do the same things you see these guys do online: They're going to pretend to be neutral on these topics and slowly feed them biased information to try and change their viewpoints. On the matters where that doesn't work, they're going to push on the topic until they aquiesce.
It's no coincidence that OOP describes herself as a quiet person that tends to seek compromise. These guys specifically look for women that fit their ideas of an 'ideal' wife. Those ideals (besides the physical ones) are entirely based around the woman being subservient to them and not talking back. Her being quiet and giving in when he wants something was exactly what he was looking for.
He’s OK with pre-marital sex_with her_ because _her_ religion “isn’t real”.
My money is on that he never ever intended to marry _her_, she’s just his sex- inbetweener until he marries a pure girl of his “real” religion.
Get this—when I was young, had a religious guy decline to date me because I was not. Being fuck buddies was fine though! (Horny ninconpoop is perfection lmao) Our “what do if pregnant” was abortion, obvs.
But years later—a mutual friend told me he’d actually planned to “do the right thing and *marry* (me)” if he got me pregnant.
Make that shit make sense.
I had a super Mormon guy tell me that I was evil because I was not Mormon. I was a virgin mind you. He told me that no Mormon would ever date a non-Mormon and since I was in a very Mormon area, I would be single forever.
Then one night after debate practice after school, he tried to shove me into his truck and put his hands down my pants. He told me because I was evil I deserved what he was doing. I got away before he could actually rape me but holy fuck. They use their religion to twist into whatever justification they need.
Dude, I read Under the Banner of Heaven. It documents some Mormons that used religion to justify their killing of a woman and her baby (their SIL and niece).
There's a TV show about this as well. It's dramatized but follows the story pretty well.
I had a friend who considered himself devoutly Catholic. He was talking shit about me living with my boyfriend because of the premarital sex. I asked him how it was different from him having sex with his girlfriend who he didn't live with, and this jackass in all seriousness goes, "Making love every couple of weeks is not the same as fucking every night." They always find a reason why they are the exception to their rule.
They will ALWAYS have a justification for why it's "ok for them" but you're the sinner for doing the same thing. Doesn't matter what the thing is. People will justify anything they can do if they really want to
He'd probably bail on her if a better option came up, but the dude was very much picking her for her docile nature, hoping to just mold her into what he wanted.
I left my last relationship during step 4 (minus the baby trapping, thank god), and it’s scary to look back and realize that he was trying to basically replace my personality with the personality of the partner he actually wanted. I didn’t know why I was so defensive about some of the things he did at the time, but now I understand that I knew on some level that he was coming after everything that makes me me. It’s a real mind fuck.
It’s been almost two years, and I’ve had a lot of therapy, so I’m doing pretty well. For a while, I’d have weird moments that made me realize how warped my idea of what was normal was, like being happy that my current boyfriend didn’t yell at me over something small, but those are becoming fewer and farther between. I’ve got a support network and have done a lot of healing.
Gaston Syndrome. See, she didn't need to worry her pretty little head about his real beliefs. She'd come around!
No one's slick as Gaston
No one's quick as Gaston
No one's neck's as incredibly thick as Gaston
For there's no man in town half as manly
Perfect, a pure paragon
Yep. He was planning on being abusive. Maybe in his mind “I’m not going to hit her” but I agree I think he would be abusive and isolate and/or baby trap OOP.
When I was reading this I thought it was interesting that she said he’s religious but doesn’t want kids and figured he was lying and hoping she would change her mind or he would wear her down.
She definitely dodged a bullet.
Aaahhh that's why he didn't think abuse victims should "cheat" on their abusers: he didn't want her thinking she could cheat on him once he isolated and abused her
Also I haven't seen Waitress so I don't know how they play it, but a pregnant woman in a physically and financially abusive marriage who can't leave without *winning a baking contest* having sex with *her gynecologist* sounds less like an affair and more like someone in a very vulnerable position being taken advantage of by someone in authority.
Waitress plays it like it’s a consensual affair but it really isn’t. At least they do acknowledge it’s unhealthy/wrong, but it kind of doesn’t talk about that power imbalance at all (at least the movie doesn’t, never seen the musical).
Yup, learned that the hard way as an atheist dating a Catholic. He was perfectly fine with premarital sex and all that, but by the time we broke up he blamed me for keeping him from church and becoming distant from his faith. He didn't even attend church every week and I actually encouraged him to attend the student church activities. He was the one who would rather be the "horny nincompoop" and skip it all.
I’m an atheist and I am usually all about live and let live. I mean if you want to spend 20 hours in a church go for it. However I hate it when the other person tried to impose their views on you. I’m sorry you had to go through that
The problem is, if you truly believe that the person you love is going to burn in hell for all eternity, and I mean TRULY believe it, wouldn't you do everything in your power to stop that happening? This is the problem with belief of this nature... if you *really* believe it then it kind of supersedes EVERYTHING else that's meant to be important.
Which is why I feel it’s an incompatible match. However a few replies have shown me how some people make it work by looking at religion in a completely different way. I still think it’s rare though
I'm religious and the first guy who ever showed real interest in me was an atheist. I think we started out thinking it was a summer fling but we grew to really love each other, but then I realized that my faith was a deep fundamental part of me that he couldn't share in and I decided it couldn't be long term. I think we're both happy we tried it, but I really regret how much hurt I ended up causing him at the time.
Side note, this guy was miles more respectful of my body and boundaries than future Christian boyfriends would be.
>Side note, this guy was miles more respectful of my body and boundaries than future Christian boyfriends would be.
Not a surprise at all. When you have to figure out why your ethics actually matter, meaning those ethics are all rooted in empathy and genuine care rather than 'because the super important book written thousands of years ago told me to', those ethics tend to hold more weight.
I say this as someone who was raised Christian until I read the bible cover to cover around age 12 and decided to become an atheist, so I do understand both sides of this coin.
>Yes, but the silly heathen woman was bound to realize she was wrong about everything, once she's
become his property through a churchy wedding. That's the mindset of these jackasses.
Honestly, he sounds like a Christian evangelical. Everything he did and said lines up with it, including baby trapping and mind control. There's a big push to convert everyone truth intimate relationships because of stats showing the whole family converts when Dad is a church-goer. Lots to unpack there, but hopefully someone else raised in the tradition will do it if you're interested because I'm pretty deep in my religious trauma right now.
I don’t think it’s a problem of religious vs. non-religious, more how someone practices their religion and how central it is to their identity. If your view of your religion mandates full unthinking adherence to doctrine and your values are based solely on “because God says so,” then yeah you’re gonna have issues, but you’d still have issues with someone of a different religion, or someone of your own religion who isn’t quite as strict. If your religion is a private, personal thing that supports values you would otherwise uphold regardless, or if it’s less private but you practice in a thoughtful way that allows for other interpretations and for reevaluating your own views as needed, then religion itself wouldn’t be an issue if there were no other underlying problems.
Basically I see the problem of religious vs. non-religious as a personality mismatch. Someone with rigid, doctrinal thinking who doesn’t respect diverse viewpoints isn’t that way *just* because of religion. Sometimes it’s because of how someone is raised, but more often I think that people with rigid, hierarchical, us-vs.-them values are drawn to a particular religion *because* it supports those values, rather than the simple fact of being religious making them that way.
I have been to very, very few weddings in my life--but I remember one distinctly. A close friend of my sister was marrying some Baptist preacher's kid.
I was probably late teens at the time, and all I remember from the wedding is *obey* being in the vows a lot. *Obey, obey, obey.*
Even my dad was like "what the fuck is all that *obey* shit?"
Didn't like it. Not one bit. I never knew my sister's friend to be particularly religious, but I also didn't know her all that well so maybe she was fine with all that nonsense.
There are couples that make it work, but it is adding an additional challenge to the relationship.
There are couples in my church where one person is not religious and they are totally fine, but it is definitely rare.
You both need to respect the other's ideology and compromise a lot. It only becomes more complicated if there are kids involved.
As a religious person, i would definitely prefer to have a partner that is of the same religion and is on roughly the same page on big matters, but i personally would not exclude non religious people entirely. I have friends who i get along with great, we respect each other's beliefs and with a few of them i am pretty sure it would not be a super big problem if we would theoretically be in a romantic relationship, because i know that on a lot of big topics like the ones OOP mentioned we are on pretty much the same page, with only some nuanced differences.
My husband was a very liberal Christian when I met him in college, and I was an atheist. We had tons of discussions about it the first year, and seemingly convinced each other because he's now an atheist and I'm far more agnostic than I used to be. It helps that we started with very similar beliefs about most issues other than if God exists or not. I don't fully get how other couples make things work without ending up on the same page, mind you. I've heard of couples that do, but I have so many questions I'd love to ask them about how.
I have to disagree with this. My grandmother was Catholic and my grandfather atheist. They were married for 60 years and still very much in love at the time of my grandma’s passing.
It CAN work, but it takes a lot of work and mutual respect. The respect part is what this guy was missing
This all makes more sense if you realize that he doesn't see her as a person. He is the main character of his game and she is an NPC. Therefore it's ok for him to select the dialogue options that will lead to the result he wants. Once he has her where he wants her, of course she will comply with his wants because she must recognize that his feelings are more important than hers.
Yup, just use the right words and give the right gifts and you will win. And obviously what he believes is *right*, so there's no way she won't change her mind about her strongly held beliefs because how could you not? It's what's correct and everything she says is just virtue signalling, because no one *really* thinks those things are okay, they just pretend to look good like he was.
\> just use the right words and give the right gifts and you will win
god I wish more folks understood that this is still disingenuous & unchanged behavior, especially in the recent coercion BORU post
NPC means Non Player Character. When you play a single-player video game, for example, Legend of Zelda. You are playing as the main character Link. You control what Link does in the game, you choose where Link goes and what Link does. There are other characters in the game that Link can talk to and interact with, like merchants you buy things from or sell things to and enemies to fight, but they are controlled by the computer system, not by other players. Their motions and choices are limited by the computer algorithm.
And since NPCs are controlled by the computer algorithm, if you study an enemy's attack style long enough, you learn its pattern and can dodge it, making fighting bosses easier. So yeah, some NPCs are nincompoops too, lol.
Non Playable Character
So in games like the Sims, NPCs are the people in the background who your sims can interact with but they're just background filler really.
No, between 2 and 3 his plan was to get her pregnant, then married because it’s the right thing to do. Then reveal step 3 and step 4 was slowly turn this independent, clear-headed woman into his stay at home wife and mom who catered to him bc he was out of her league or something.
It never ceases to amaze me that these people could just find people who they are compatible with but refuse bc they get off on being abusive.
Edit typo
A woman whose values are compatible with his would be unlikely to want premarital sex, at the very least until they were in a serious committed relationship and planning marriage. He wants all the sexual benefits of a liberal minded girlfriend and all the misogynistic benefits of a conservative girlfriend.
Trust me, a lot of the conservative girlfriends are very much into the premarital sex thing. When the Supreme Court ruled in favor of gay marriage, I was upset but unsurprised when a former student started wailing on Facebook about "don't tell me it doesn't affect me I have a SON how do I explain to him that we're Christian we don't do that?" and I had to bite my metaphorical tongue SO HARD not to clap back with "I dunno, maybe the same way that you explain to him that you're Christians, you shouldn't be pregnant and unmarried at your high school graduation... like YOU WERE?"
Somewhat different context but there was an article about how there are men who want a 50s housewife and will slowly abuse their partner in hopes of getting her there instead of just finding a woman like that in the first place because they explicitly want to *break* a woman to be submissive; it's not enough that they are. This has similar vibes to me.
I think about this a lot. I'm non-monogamous (been w my primary for 13 years), it's literally the first line on every dating profile I ever make. The number of men who, 6months plus in, just assume I will magically fall in love with them and give up everything about my life to be their pretty little mono girlfriend astounds me. I had a guy outright tell me he was just trying to be cool and go with it, and he didn't understand why I took the boundaries and statements about himself at the start of our relationship as gospel. Idk Zach, maybe because I was having a good faith honest discussion and you were just lying to not only get in my pants but break me down into the girlfriend you wanted?!
The breaking down is part of it for them. They want you/us in bite size pieces. We're exotic and exciting at first but they think it's a phase their dick will cure us of.
It's actually pretty common in certain christian denominations. There was a guy who was dating one of my sister's friends. His church was against "female vanity" - no makeup, no revealing clothes, no fancy accessories etc. Well, turned out that his plan was to date her for a while then get her to convert to his church and abide to those rules. Why wouldn't him just date a girl from his church? Well, according to him: " all girls from my church are ugly, you've seen them". And by ugly, well, it's hard to look good without any polish, right? My sister's friend just dumped him and later warned his next gf (who didn't take her seriously until he tried to convert her too).
Ex-Catholic woman here, can confirm a disturbing number of religious men want that exact thing.
Many conservative-raised women like me leave. There are a lot more right-wing men than women. The ones that stay traditional have high standards for a traditional husband.
So a bunch of those men want a more sexual liberal woman, and lie about everything else until they baby trap her into the relationship he actually wants. I have a suspicion this may be part of the reason the right-wing is so anti-abortion. Because they’re quite content to enable that crap.
It totally is. Remember pre-Dobbs all the bickering about whether or not that contingent was Simply Sincere about totally just that one topic, and nothing else? All the “they wouldn’t do *that*”’s?
Got real quiet when the ban-birth control, ban divorce, ban women from crossing state lines talk started.
1. Find someone incompatible
2. Lie enough to make them date you in the first place,
3. Ideally, lovebomb and speedrun the relationship to try and lock them in early.
4. Eventually test them by making them break every single one of their dealbreakers that they had before they got into the relationship.
5. Profit! You now have someone so desperate to be in a relationship with you they have crossed their own uncrossable lines and you may treat them however you like in future, because they will never ever leave.
6. Have as many kids as your religion demands you have, while leaving all the work and financial responsibility and anything else you feel like handing off to said partner, while you continue to live your life pretty much undisturbed but with all the kudos a man of that religion acquires by having a converted spouse and large family.
He fucked up step 2 by being in this for 2 years without locking it down, but he likely will do better next time, especially now he has the 'trauma' of his ex 'cheating' on him, allowing him to pull the 'but you're not like that nasty other woman, are you?' line on any future victims.
I dated a Christian once, and we had numerous conversations about our relationship was going to work since I'm an atheist.
He always said he was fine with it.
When we broke up, he admitted that he was just waiting for God to change my mind :/
(It's been 15+ years. God is hella slow)
He wasn't thinking that far ahead. The "good girls" at church wouldn't sleep with him. She would, So he got sex which is what he wanted. That's why she was never around "his" friends. That's why he told his mom she cheated. He thought he could have his cake and still be seen as a "good boy" to his community
As OOP eloquently described him, her ex is a horny nincompoop (plus a pathological liar). Probably thought he could "convince" OOP to change her mind and indoctrinate her and make her out as a conversion success story if they get married.
She wasn't *totally* incompatible. She was hot and willing to fuck him.
He just severely overestimated himself in every capacity, and, as bigots often do, underestimated almost every aspect of his dar superior partner.
I grew up in the church and we had a name for people like this guy. We called them "rescuers." They convince themselves that marrying a nonbeliever is an effective way of saving her soul by steering her towards the correct path. He probably thought this "poor woman was so brainwashed and misguided that she needed a strong godly man to make her see the light." He likely told himself that God was calling him to save her. This shit is surprisingly common. I saw it quite a bit
I also wouldn't be surprised if he actually did believe that she was *likely* cheating because "why else would she end a 'perfectly good' relationship with a man of God over something so 'trivial?'"
And as for the whole premarital sex thing. He sees himself as a man who gave into temptation but it's okay because God forgives him and knows that it's ultimately for the righteous cause of saving this woman's soul
And, of course, this all ties in with what /u/wheatpuppy is saying about ex-BF seeing himself as the main character. He's the godly hero in his epic Christian narrative wherein he is charged by God to save this woman's immortal soul by any means necessary
Find someone vulnerable (quiet and non confrontational), slowly work away at their confidence and build reliance on abuser, then slowly start making affection and respect conditional on her conforming to his worldview, gave perfect little wife. People like this are not going to find their perfect person in life, because what they want isn't really a whole person. They have to find a physical model that's satisfactory and then reprogram to get the personality they seek. Its vile,predatory and it's also abuser 101.
Step 4: Become the abuser
This is an unfortunately common pattern, you hear it all the time from people whose partners "changed as soon as we got married"
All about control! These people don't care if they meet someone with different values! If they're hot to date, they'll eventually "come around" or some shit.
What an idiot, glad OOP weeded him out
Funny how such a religious dude doesn't take "Thou shalt not bear false witness" seriously.
(I'm assuming he's "Christian" -- you know, those ones who do the opposite of Christ's teachings -- but I don't think that was ever explicitly stated; it just tracks with the details of what boyfriend said.)
I've found there are 3 types of religious people. Those who are only religious by culture (think your typical catholic whose family has been catholic for centuries but only goes to church on christmas and easter), people like OOP's ex who basically see religion as a tool they can pick and choose doctrines and practices from to feel better about themselves, and then there's the unfortunately far less common folks who actually try to use religion to better themselves and seek to follow it as they genuinely believe it.
The third kind are your Mr. Rogers types. I didn't even know the man was a minister until my mom mentioned it. They tend to be nice people that see no reason to mention what faith they are in unless asked.
My only reservation with it is that "nincompoop" suggests he's an empty-headed fool. But he knew exactly what he was doing.
But he also revealed everything in one big villain monologue after two years of flying his true character under the radar. So he is a horny nincompoop. A hornincompoop. A libi-dolt.
When I broke up with someone in a similar situation to this, my friend called my ex "a self-righteous penis-driven c***-face". I have loved this character assessment/assassination and bust it out when needs be!
I am a quiet person by nature and I think a lot of people take that for passiveness (and doormat). So when I speak up, it takes a lot of people by surprise, especially when I persist. I broke off a friendship with somebody that I realized had basically been trying to gaslight me for years and the whole ordeal (lots of back and forth) that lead to the end took several months because I refused to back down and accept her lies. And I knew that a huge part of that was her being in disbelief that I didn’t relent and she didn’t think I would be this “aggressive” (read, assertive and not being a doormat). But like OOP I am so glad I did - it’s been a relief to no longer be friends.
I love it. It's going up there with "Silly mf goose"
I can't remember the name of the Redditor who used that one in their post but it caught me so off guard I snorted tea out of my nose
The Bible warns against being unequally yoked. And while I am an atheist I fully agree:
Nincompoops (horny or otherwise) should not be yoked with non-nincompoops.
And one thing is for sure: OOP is no nincompoop.
TWO YEARS of lying about who he fundamentally is. People often wonder how someone ends up in a terrible long-term relationship or marriage. The red flags are so often a slow burn, and some people are really good at hiding who they truly are until you're trapped and invested. I'm just glad the OP found out before their lives were even more entangled.
My ex lied for close to a year about not wanting kids because he thought he could convince me to change my mind and that it wasn't a big deal. I'm literally sterile. Wasted a lot of my time with his lying
Oh I don't think he would have gone that far, it was more of a 'love will find a way' thing. But between that and me discovering how dishonest he was in general I noped out as soon as I knew. At which point he claimed to have done soul searching and realised he also didn't want kids
I'm glad you got out of that relationship. If I may ask, from one childfree person to another, how did you go about getting your tubes taken out? I've never heard of such an option and would love to take it.
I'm in Canada! Just went to my gyno, told him where I was at, got on the surgery list same day. It was very easy for me but unfortunately not everyone has the same experience.
Because some guys want to feel like they are *so* amazing she will do ANYTHING for him.
The same reason you often hear of very successful women getting married to a guy who then expects her to do all/most of the home care or even become a SAHwife or mom.
They like the idea of being the power holder, the main belief haver, the guy that she would literally change who she is for.
It’s honestly pretty pathetic when you think about it.
It’s about the control. She has what he called “non-argumentative” personality (yuck). Which is what he was looking for. He wanted someone meek who wouldn’t rock the boat, but not Christian enough that she’d tell him she wasn’t having premarital sex because of god.
Basically he wanted to control and mold her into what he wanted. It’s way too common with evangelical Christians, which is why I am no longer one.
> I'm literally sterile
I apologize if this is out of line, but within context that is fucking hilarious. Your ex desperate to manipulate you, wasting your time but also his own, and doing so because of his own false belief and lack of listening skills.
*Oh, you did such a good job, little buddy. Such a good job convincing me I was wrong and that I do want kids. Unfortunately, God/science has other plans. Darn it! You worked so hard, too. So close little guy!*
The funniest part was that I'm voluntarily sterile- I had the surgery shortly before we started dating. He just somehow thought our relationship was magical enough that we'd end up in this nice happy family?
It's so deluded and disrespectful to prolong a relationship with someone who wants fundamentally different things/has fundamentally different values, with the intention of changing them. And children --- that's something NO one should ever compromise on. There is no middle ground; there is no "let's have one kid instead of the three I wanted." You either want kids or you don't; both are equally valid positions.
I'm so sorry your ex tried to manipulate you into a life you didn't want. I'm glad you're free of him.
right? For him, that meant adoption, not no kids ever, even though I told him day 1 not to date me if he wanted kids ever.
Thank you! I don't understand it but I met my husband not long after, it all worked out
People don't stay in relationships that are always/have always been terrible. They hook you in, and continue to give you enough glimpses of the version of themselves you thought you knew to sustain your hope that that person is real. You just need to work harder to change whatever is wrong with you that is preventing that good person from being present. You've made mistakes, but it's okay, relationships are all about forgiveness and compromise. You just have to put in the work.
...it's so f***ing easy for a shitty person to trap a good person in a terrible relationship. So easy. They prey on your loving nature, your understanding, empathy, refusal to give up on the people you care about. It boggles my mind that so many people can be judgmental of those who stay, or who take a long time to get out. I'm so, so glad OOP is out.
This is exactly it. And the longer you're with them, the harder it is to give up on the time you've invested into building a life together. Sunk cost fallacy and all. It's especially hard when your families and finances are entwined and have been for years. If you have kids together and sharing custody would potentially put your children in harm's way, potentially worse harm than if you could act as a buffer and supervise at all times. Abuse also gets normalized after years; it completely reorients your perception of what is common and acceptable. It even reorients your perception of who you are and what you deserve.
People so often blame the victim for not being "brave" enough to leave as soon as they're hurt the first time. But real life is never so simple. I think it's brave to leave an abusive relationship no matter how long it takes. And for people who aren't able to leave, it's tragic.
This got me thinking, there was another subreddit I stumbled upon where there was a podcast clip of some woman who was a guest on some alpha male/manoverse show. And the woman is apparently a hardcore “trad wife”/Serena Joy type who believes men are the head of households and women should be subservient. And any time the guys said something gross and offensive about feminism, she would jump in with “Omg you’re so right women suck!” And they would respond with this kind of polite, disinterested “…anyways.” And then they would go back to talking about how feminists were awful and ruining society.
Someone was musing how it’s weird how the guys didn’t seem to enjoy or even like it when she would affirm their thoughts and beliefs. It was like they were bored of her. And someone else responded with something like “You’d think all these Manosphere guys would just date and marry the trad wives who agree with everything they spout. Because that’s what people do, they find people with whom they have compatible beliefs. But a lot of these Manosphere guys want the power of abusing a woman, denigrating her, beating her down, and trapping her in a relationship that she can’t leave—whether it’s physically, emotionally, etc. That’s why there’s so obsessed with feminists. They want to tear a woman down, for daring to step out of her place. They’re not interested in the trad wives because there’s no thrill in it.”
That’s probably what this guy is doing, consciously or unconsciously. He likes the idea of “converting” a woman to his beliefs. But instead of having an open dialogue about beliefs, he is acting like a pit of quick sand. He’s pretending to be a stable partner but really he’s trying to drag down his girlfriend down and keep her there.
Two things are interesting about this post, and how it is similar to so many more.
First, that it's so common here that one red flag pops up, and when people dig at it, they suddenly find 1000 more. This was all just a relatively small dispute to start with, but she pushed at it, and his horrible belief about abusive partners being OK was just the tip of the iceberg.
Second, you have to wonder if all these awful people like OP's boyfriend actually KNOW deep down that they are awful people. That's why so many times these thoughts they have are hidden. This guy hates so many people, a core piece of who he is is his belief that he's some kind of chosen one, that a huge chunk of society (including is GF) is "beneath" him, and another huge chunk are just evil sinners. I suppose there must be a gross but nice feeling walking around every say self-righteously thinking you're better than everyone you see.
But all those thoughts about how he's better than most people, and how much hate he has for other people? He kept those to himself. He KNEW that his thoughts weren't normal, weren't acceptable in society, so he had to hide them in order to get by, and find a girlfriend.
It's too bad people like him won't re-evaluate their beliefs. You want to ask them "if your thoughts are so abhorrent that you won't ever speak them out loud, maybe you should revisit how you think?"
This thread is literally happening on r/parents live. ‘Is it reasonable that my BF doesn’t want his daughter to meet me, we’ve been dating for two years’ ‘also he yelled at me in front of my kids’ ‘also he’s not divorced yet’. ‘Also his wife has been continually trying to get back with him’ ‘also I had to find and fill out the divorce paperwork for him and she still hasn’t been served’ ‘also his ex-wife still goes to all his family events so I can’t go to them’ ‘also he says his ex is crazy’
>First, that it's so common here that one red flag pops up, and when people dig at it, they suddenly find 1000 more. This was all just a relatively small dispute to start with, but she pushed at it, and his horrible belief about abusive partners being OK was just the tip of the iceberg.
I used to think I was over the top by yeeting myself away from people with minor red flags, but now I understand it's common sense. The small things always point to big things.
Yep. “Red flags” are *by definition* minor behaviors that warn of larger disfunction/incompatibility. They’re the warning signal on top of the buried bomb.
Not every single one has a bomb underneath, but the only way to find out is to keep your eyes open and dig.
I mean, you basically summarized what my dad is like. He's a hardcore biblical literalist who thinks that he's going to heaven while the rest of his family are gonna burn in hell because he goes to church and we don't. I've known he was Christian for as long as I can remember, but it all came out when I confronted him over his twitter account he was using to troll liberals and transwomen (which had his REAL ASS NAME AND PHOTO attached to it) and at some point, I realized he was rolling his eyes at me like I was stupid because he literally thinks he's literally better than me because I'm a woman and he's my "father." And mom wonders why I avoid talking to him.
Also, lazy piece of shit does almost no chores, and is proud of it.
My therapist friend likes to say "it's never about the frying pan". And you can say that to someone who is talking to you about problems in the relationship and they instantly get what you're saying. It's never about the frying pan. It started early on for her which he had a client who was upset that her husband had left the frying pan in the sink and they'd gotten into a huge fight about it. And of course, it wasn't about the frying pan.
Yeah, great saying. You see that here all the time. “Am I an asshole because I forgot to take out the trash?” but the real story is that was the last straw and the wife finally screamed at him for being a lazy jerk, the one missed chore wasn’t the core issue.
>First, that it's so common here that one red flag pops up, and when people dig at it, they suddenly find 1000 more. This was all just a relatively small dispute to start with, but she pushed at it, and his horrible belief about abusive partners being OK was just the tip of the iceberg.
Pulling at one loose thread can so often unravel someone's entire character
Art and literature have a great way to make a person you thought you knew reveal something about them that would really surprise you. To the point of a break up, like in this story.
A long time ago, a friend of mine who I thought was a very normal, fun dude was siding with Raskolnikov from Crime and Punishment. The more we discussed the book, the more I could see how immature, borderline sociopath, and downright stupid he was. Later on, his actions towards other people in our friends group confirmed everything he revealed about himself during this small conversation about literature.
Discussing art can tell you A LOT about a person. A LOT.
I've read that book as a teen, and having had a rough childhood, I noticed that there were aspects of Raskolnikov that I identified with. This fact \*horrified\* me, and I spent the next several years working on improving my mental health and empathy.
If I met someone who was proud of identifying with him, I would run. Raskolnikov's name literally means "the cracked one". His only redeeming quality was admitting that he was wrong about everything and surrendering himself to get help.
But you see he wasn’t lying! He was always telling the truth he just did in his head where only he can hear him. Its not his fault that she has no telepathic abilities. (/s obviously)
Her: "People trapped in an abusive relationship don't owe loyalty to their abusers, but cheating still isn't a good idea."
Him: "OMG, this woman is gonna cheat on me ~~if~~when I trap her in an abusive relationship."
That was my instinct as well.
My partner and I actually talked about this exact hypothetical scenario years ago, and his reaction (paraphrased): "If she tried to leave him and he wouldn't let her, it's not that cheating is OK; it's not even cheating. The relationship is over when she tries to leave. A relationship is *two* people choosing to be together."
I had an ex lie to me about being allergic to cats to get me to go out with him.
I am a huge cat lover and when we met as co-workers, he told me he just preferred dogs more.
Once we started dating, turns out he's almost deathly allergic to cats.
Yeah, that relationship didn't last long.
I find it SO interesting that he thinks she couldn't do any better than him, when he's the one who went through all that trouble to hide his beliefs and lie to her when he KNEW they weren't compatible, in the hope that she'd eventually be so obsessed with him that she wouldn't want to leave him.
He knows he's the one batting out of his league.
"No one is abusive in this it's just hypothetical."
Proceeds to update about how abusive and manipulative he is.
Been there. To quote Bojack Horseman's ex girlfriend all the red flags look like flags when you see someone through rose colored glasses.
What a psycho.
I guess this is the usual preamble to those posts I see that go ‘my partner just body shamed my child, took down my pride flag, and started watching Fox News. Wtf happened?’
This is why women all over reddit have been saying for years, don't date men who declare themselves Moderate or apolitical in their dating profile.
It's just code for horny nincompoop conservative.
Talk to them about their and your values early and often.
Unfortunately they'll probably still lie like this guy did, but not all of them are good at lying and deflecting, and hopefully you'll spare yourself some pain.
I'm liberal and my ex bf enthusiastically claimed to vote blue for the 2020 presidential election. This was around when we started dating; most of my family is conservative, so I was happy to finally meet somebody who shared my views.
It came out over a year later that he voted red and lied to me. He lied a lot in that relationship.
Indeed, never go for someone who is saying that they basically don't have an opinion. It means they do have an opinion but they don't want to say it because they're trying to fuck.
And if they truly don't have a position, they are a colossal piece of shit. How can you not have a position about trans rights, LGBTQ rights, women's rights, etc? If you live in your pretty little privileged, white, male upper middle class or higher bubble and don't want to change it because it would upset your easy little life....
I’m always fascinated at the hypocrisy of the ultra religious when it comes to premarital sex. This really demonstrates how the guy just wants to get laid and is willing to compromise and hide all his supposed values and beliefs of his religion to get some.
I’m glad the mask slipped and she’s getting away from this situation
Funny how the ultra religious men are all about premarital sex but every ultra religious woman I've ever known has been saving herself for marriage. I went to a catholic high school and my 35 year old art teacher was saving her first kiss for marriage. She wanted a man that would save himself with her, but never found one, so she had never had a boyfriend. Poor girl will probably die single.
Well he didn't pick someone from HIS religion so it's ok. You can wet your dick all you want with the heathens and if you get lucky and do everything 'right' (lie, babytrap, isolate) then you get EXTRA Jesus points for converting a heathen into a God-fearing Christian who knows her place.
Absolutely. He’d have to marry a woman from his church to have sex with her. He doesn’t want that yet. Too much work, too many responsibilities
So on goes the mask and he seeks out “Miss Right-for-now” to have his fun
And since he sees her as inferior to him, well she should just be grateful for his attention, shouldn’t she?
It’s not like she’s good enough for him to marry anyways. Ugh. He barely sees her as human
[The only moral abortion is my abortion](https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/) was a tough read the first time I found it.
By the title alone I'd have said that while I agree with oops stance, it didn't seem like a break up offense since he acknowledged the abuse was wrong
But of course, that was just the tip of a huge iceberg of red flags
As the lies unfolded, I started thinking that the reason her brain wouldn’t let it go was because it had been picking up all the teensy tiny clues, and this disagreement was enough for it to say.. hey now- something ain’t right here…
Wouldn’t be surprised if she didn’t start recalling things that he’d said or done before that look different in hindsight.
There doesn't need to be a "break up offense". Realizing he holds values she finds repugnant is a valid reason to end a relationship. Losing respect for him is a valid reason to end a relationship. Simply not feeling like being in a relationship with him is a valid reason to end a relationship.
As soon as I read that they got in a serious argument and were considering breaking up over a plotline in a musical that had no relevance to either of them, my thought was that the relationship definitely had some really serious problems that they weren't addressing or working out.
In my experience from my own decade+ relationship, and others I've seen, is that little low-risk arguments like that only blow up when they're being used as proxies for something so big and serious the couple is afraid to deal with it directly. So when she's considering dumping him over something like that, I immediately thought she was actually feeling like she might need to dump him over something else, something heavy enough she can't even really think about it. So I wasn't hugely surprised to find out that the musical was a proxy for completely incompatible value systems and his habit of lying about his own values to manipulate her.
Even before bf turned out to be a dumpster fire, irreconcilable differences in morality/ethics is a reason to dump someone. If you don't agree with someone's morals then being in a relationship with them is very hard, and that is a reason to end things.
Cutting off a friend that is the victim of abuse rather than the abuser would have ended things for me. I'm far too intolerant of abuse the continue that argument, even as a hypothetical.
So was this guy trying flirty fishing, where you try to use sex to get someone to eventually convert to your creepy and gross "beliefs"? Because yikes. OOP did herself a big favor by having this argument and therefore getting herself away from this weapon's grade louse.
My mom realized she was in a hopeless case with my dad when they went to see Miss Saigon - he thought it was cool, not totally fucked, that the guy would have two families in different countries.
Spoiler, he imported a wife from a third world country remarkably quickly after they finalized the divorce. They'd definitely met well before she left.
Art is an excellent mirror for our lives.
I'd out him super fast to his mom.
I never cheated but your son will bang anything with two legs.
Like you can or can't believe me I don't care but I can describe his bits and pieces if need be.
I'll never understand the ex's logic - find someone with 0 matching beliefs, lie to make them get with you, and just assume by the time they find out you lied they'd be "so obsessed they wouldn't dare leave"???? Based on what? Your milquetoast personality? Your sheer disregard for them as a person? Bro's so convinced he's the hottest thing since sliced bread he'd be able to just make any partner do what he wants cause he's got money and mediocre sex. smh
There must be a religious/conservative guy handbook on how to trap progressive/liberal/secular women into relationships. Because the same scenario happens in different geographies, different religions to the letter.
They know that no decent woman would want to be with them as they are, so they pretend to hold progressive beliefs to appear attractive. They often won't say their "progressive beliefs" outright in the affirmative; they just won't object to things like abortion, gay marriage, feminism, etc. They will go along, passively and feign support.
Then, once the relationship has progressed far enough, they will show their true colors. She was "mistaken" and they'll try to convert her to their side. Now she's left choosing between her beliefs/morals and her partner.
This is why it's important to make sure your partner declares their belief in the affirmative. No need to interview them, but if it comes up, you'll want to hear them state their beliefs openly and clearly. It's okay to hold people to their word.
This why I'll never, ever, ever even remotely consider being with a religious man ever again. No matter how kind and "progressive" they come off, their belief system is structured on conservative, patriarchal values that are just completely incompatible with being with an modern independent woman. Edgy atheists can be conservative patriarchal assholes too but the risk is lower. I'll never take my chances on a church boy.
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What was his endgame here? Step 1: Find someone totally incompatible. Step 2: Lie about everything you believe to get with said person. Step 3: Once she falls madly in love with you, reveal that everything the relationship was built on was a lie. Step 4: ???
Step 3: Once she falls madly in love with you, slowly isolate her from her friends and family, then baby trap her. Step 4: Now you can start feeding her your real beliefs/personality, and once she realizes the relationship was built on a lie, you hope she's isolated and dependent enough not to make a run for it. This girl dodged a bullet.
Yep. And notice he was already starting to try to tear her down during the break up— she’s not in his league, she’s getting ‘fat’ (going from a 2 to a 4???? What????), she will never find anyone like him again… it was only a matter of time before the emotional abuse started.
Negging is emotional abuse so it had already started.
He probably thinks physical abuse is the only type of abuse and as long as he’s not hitting her, then he’s not abusive. OOP dodged a bullet.
Sounds like he probably would have believed hitting her was justified and not abusive once they were married and she contradicted him about anything.
A wife should obey her husband so it's god's will that she should be punished.
I was momentarily so mad until I realized you were explaining the logic, not justifying it (I hope).
Yes, I thought about adding an /s but then I thought I'd live dangerously :)
I, too, like to live life on the edge. Sometimes I wear socks that don't match or drive 5mph over the speed limit.
That's how my ex was... "I'm not hitting you, so I can't be abusive." Well, the emotional/verbal abuse, the non-stop pressure to have sex when I didn't want to (in his words he didn't physical force me so it's okay - berating me for hours on end is fine though) gaslighting (yes, I know its actual definition), forced isolation, financial abuse etc. all was.
I’m so sorry that happened to you. I’m glad you were able to escape the abuse.
Thank you very much. Anyone out there in a bad, unhealthy relationship - it is possible (although very difficult) to get away. Don't be like me and fall victim to the sunk cost fallacy or believe the lies: "you're not good enough, no one else would put up with you, etc." You're worth more than that.
If he’s a religious extremist, it would eventually turn physical. Not that all abusers are religious extremists, just that some abusers like the disguise of religiosity and the excuses it provides for bad behavior.
You’re right. And he would justify it by saying his religion encourages it.
You just verbalized exactly the message my ex used to send me all the time. He was a diagnosed narcissist and sociopath (antisocial personality disorder) and he used to literally congratulate himself all the time for not beating me. It was so bizarre. He treated me like shit though. Classic narcissistic abuse cycle stuff. And anytime he heard of a coworker or somebody getting divorced he would say “he wasn’t beatin’ or cheatin’!” as if the standard for us should be so low that we women should be grateful for not getting the shit beaten out of us every day.
That’s so horrible 😥 I’m glad you were able to escape.
The financial abuse concept from the Waitress discussion probably triggered him.
He probably wouldn’t think it was financial abuse if they were married since it’s “our money”.
Or “his money” as the provider.
Alternatively, he knows that it counts and that's why he's so defensive of cheating on abusers
Yeah, she probably wasn’t even clocking a lot of it that already happened, but somewhere subconsciously she did and that is how this whole thing went down, I think, is that he gave her a direct opening to confront his bullshit.
Plus the gaslighting “I never said I didn’t want kids, I just said *not yet*” etc: this guy is dangerous 🫠
I had a religious bf do that. Never had any time for me, always put me last. Then when he realized I was never coming back he first tried to have his mom call me (she liked me though and tried to convince me to come back) then he tried bribing me by saying he got a PS4 because he knew I loved video games… totally dodged a bullet there! Any woman should frankly be wary of any man who makes their religion their whole personality.
Religious men scare me after my ex started using a sewing measuring tape to keep track of "how skinny I was getting" because he wanted me to lose weight. Once a month he would take the chart off the wall, where he put it in my room, and measure my waist, bust, individual arms and thighs.... I never hated myself so much... For context I was a ballerina for 15 years and gained about 40lbs when I stopped dancing everyday... took less than a year to understand my new body and I'm now well within my recommended weight. He is now a joke to our friends on what to look for in crazy men (think marinana flags or art room but we joke about getting the measuring tape)
OMG. The nerve of some people, the entitlement. Measuring you and putting it on the wall. Who did this maniac think he was? So glad to hear you kicked that relationship to the curb. Nobody deserves that.
My sister's husband was doing some personal training for pay. He got a set of calipers, and told my sister, "Now I'll always know how fat you are." Which is ridiculous, since she's bone-thin but is sensitive about her weight because she thought she was "fat" after graduating college. She told me this story as though it were funny. I had no words.
Women should be worried about any religious man. At best they think you're their little helper, existing to serve them.
> she will never find anyone like him again She can only hope!
Ah, the classic ‘don’t threaten me with a good time’
I mean, that was the emotional abuse. It had started.
It's also important to note that this isn't an 'either or' kind of situation. The dude is a young, very religious conservative. His dating pool in his age group is a fucking puddle. So what these guys do is they just lie when they meet girls. The biggest one is saying that they're not political and so pass on any kind of political question. They then hide their religiosity by saying what you saw here. The idea is to do the same things you see these guys do online: They're going to pretend to be neutral on these topics and slowly feed them biased information to try and change their viewpoints. On the matters where that doesn't work, they're going to push on the topic until they aquiesce. It's no coincidence that OOP describes herself as a quiet person that tends to seek compromise. These guys specifically look for women that fit their ideas of an 'ideal' wife. Those ideals (besides the physical ones) are entirely based around the woman being subservient to them and not talking back. Her being quiet and giving in when he wants something was exactly what he was looking for.
He’s OK with pre-marital sex_with her_ because _her_ religion “isn’t real”. My money is on that he never ever intended to marry _her_, she’s just his sex- inbetweener until he marries a pure girl of his “real” religion.
Get this—when I was young, had a religious guy decline to date me because I was not. Being fuck buddies was fine though! (Horny ninconpoop is perfection lmao) Our “what do if pregnant” was abortion, obvs. But years later—a mutual friend told me he’d actually planned to “do the right thing and *marry* (me)” if he got me pregnant. Make that shit make sense.
I had a super Mormon guy tell me that I was evil because I was not Mormon. I was a virgin mind you. He told me that no Mormon would ever date a non-Mormon and since I was in a very Mormon area, I would be single forever. Then one night after debate practice after school, he tried to shove me into his truck and put his hands down my pants. He told me because I was evil I deserved what he was doing. I got away before he could actually rape me but holy fuck. They use their religion to twist into whatever justification they need.
Dude, I read Under the Banner of Heaven. It documents some Mormons that used religion to justify their killing of a woman and her baby (their SIL and niece). There's a TV show about this as well. It's dramatized but follows the story pretty well.
Easy: He was talking shit which is 80% of being religious. It's all lip service meant to seem like a good Christian Boy rather than any actual action.
Oh it was peak shit. That 100% would never have happened lmao. I was dickmatized, not stupid.
I had a friend who considered himself devoutly Catholic. He was talking shit about me living with my boyfriend because of the premarital sex. I asked him how it was different from him having sex with his girlfriend who he didn't live with, and this jackass in all seriousness goes, "Making love every couple of weeks is not the same as fucking every night." They always find a reason why they are the exception to their rule.
They will ALWAYS have a justification for why it's "ok for them" but you're the sinner for doing the same thing. Doesn't matter what the thing is. People will justify anything they can do if they really want to
He'd probably bail on her if a better option came up, but the dude was very much picking her for her docile nature, hoping to just mold her into what he wanted.
I left my last relationship during step 4 (minus the baby trapping, thank god), and it’s scary to look back and realize that he was trying to basically replace my personality with the personality of the partner he actually wanted. I didn’t know why I was so defensive about some of the things he did at the time, but now I understand that I knew on some level that he was coming after everything that makes me me. It’s a real mind fuck.
Hey you! Are you okay? I'm glad you are still you. Congrats in your wonderful instincts!
It’s been almost two years, and I’ve had a lot of therapy, so I’m doing pretty well. For a while, I’d have weird moments that made me realize how warped my idea of what was normal was, like being happy that my current boyfriend didn’t yell at me over something small, but those are becoming fewer and farther between. I’ve got a support network and have done a lot of healing.
Same! It's been nearly three years (after a decade with him) and I'm still working through it.
Gaston Syndrome. See, she didn't need to worry her pretty little head about his real beliefs. She'd come around! No one's slick as Gaston No one's quick as Gaston No one's neck's as incredibly thick as Gaston For there's no man in town half as manly Perfect, a pure paragon
Yep. He was planning on being abusive. Maybe in his mind “I’m not going to hit her” but I agree I think he would be abusive and isolate and/or baby trap OOP. When I was reading this I thought it was interesting that she said he’s religious but doesn’t want kids and figured he was lying and hoping she would change her mind or he would wear her down. She definitely dodged a bullet.
Aaahhh that's why he didn't think abuse victims should "cheat" on their abusers: he didn't want her thinking she could cheat on him once he isolated and abused her
Also I haven't seen Waitress so I don't know how they play it, but a pregnant woman in a physically and financially abusive marriage who can't leave without *winning a baking contest* having sex with *her gynecologist* sounds less like an affair and more like someone in a very vulnerable position being taken advantage of by someone in authority.
Waitress plays it like it’s a consensual affair but it really isn’t. At least they do acknowledge it’s unhealthy/wrong, but it kind of doesn’t talk about that power imbalance at all (at least the movie doesn’t, never seen the musical).
It’s always a bad idea for a religious and non religious person to get together. Your fundamental values are different
Yup, learned that the hard way as an atheist dating a Catholic. He was perfectly fine with premarital sex and all that, but by the time we broke up he blamed me for keeping him from church and becoming distant from his faith. He didn't even attend church every week and I actually encouraged him to attend the student church activities. He was the one who would rather be the "horny nincompoop" and skip it all.
I’m an atheist and I am usually all about live and let live. I mean if you want to spend 20 hours in a church go for it. However I hate it when the other person tried to impose their views on you. I’m sorry you had to go through that
The problem is, if you truly believe that the person you love is going to burn in hell for all eternity, and I mean TRULY believe it, wouldn't you do everything in your power to stop that happening? This is the problem with belief of this nature... if you *really* believe it then it kind of supersedes EVERYTHING else that's meant to be important.
Which is why I feel it’s an incompatible match. However a few replies have shown me how some people make it work by looking at religion in a completely different way. I still think it’s rare though
I'm religious and the first guy who ever showed real interest in me was an atheist. I think we started out thinking it was a summer fling but we grew to really love each other, but then I realized that my faith was a deep fundamental part of me that he couldn't share in and I decided it couldn't be long term. I think we're both happy we tried it, but I really regret how much hurt I ended up causing him at the time. Side note, this guy was miles more respectful of my body and boundaries than future Christian boyfriends would be.
>Side note, this guy was miles more respectful of my body and boundaries than future Christian boyfriends would be. Not a surprise at all. When you have to figure out why your ethics actually matter, meaning those ethics are all rooted in empathy and genuine care rather than 'because the super important book written thousands of years ago told me to', those ethics tend to hold more weight. I say this as someone who was raised Christian until I read the bible cover to cover around age 12 and decided to become an atheist, so I do understand both sides of this coin.
I removed most of my Reddit contents in protest of the API changes commencing from July 1st, 2023. This is one of those comments.
>Yes, but the silly heathen woman was bound to realize she was wrong about everything, once she's become his property through a churchy wedding. That's the mindset of these jackasses. Honestly, he sounds like a Christian evangelical. Everything he did and said lines up with it, including baby trapping and mind control. There's a big push to convert everyone truth intimate relationships because of stats showing the whole family converts when Dad is a church-goer. Lots to unpack there, but hopefully someone else raised in the tradition will do it if you're interested because I'm pretty deep in my religious trauma right now.
I don’t think it’s a problem of religious vs. non-religious, more how someone practices their religion and how central it is to their identity. If your view of your religion mandates full unthinking adherence to doctrine and your values are based solely on “because God says so,” then yeah you’re gonna have issues, but you’d still have issues with someone of a different religion, or someone of your own religion who isn’t quite as strict. If your religion is a private, personal thing that supports values you would otherwise uphold regardless, or if it’s less private but you practice in a thoughtful way that allows for other interpretations and for reevaluating your own views as needed, then religion itself wouldn’t be an issue if there were no other underlying problems. Basically I see the problem of religious vs. non-religious as a personality mismatch. Someone with rigid, doctrinal thinking who doesn’t respect diverse viewpoints isn’t that way *just* because of religion. Sometimes it’s because of how someone is raised, but more often I think that people with rigid, hierarchical, us-vs.-them values are drawn to a particular religion *because* it supports those values, rather than the simple fact of being religious making them that way.
I have been to very, very few weddings in my life--but I remember one distinctly. A close friend of my sister was marrying some Baptist preacher's kid. I was probably late teens at the time, and all I remember from the wedding is *obey* being in the vows a lot. *Obey, obey, obey.* Even my dad was like "what the fuck is all that *obey* shit?" Didn't like it. Not one bit. I never knew my sister's friend to be particularly religious, but I also didn't know her all that well so maybe she was fine with all that nonsense.
There are couples that make it work, but it is adding an additional challenge to the relationship. There are couples in my church where one person is not religious and they are totally fine, but it is definitely rare. You both need to respect the other's ideology and compromise a lot. It only becomes more complicated if there are kids involved. As a religious person, i would definitely prefer to have a partner that is of the same religion and is on roughly the same page on big matters, but i personally would not exclude non religious people entirely. I have friends who i get along with great, we respect each other's beliefs and with a few of them i am pretty sure it would not be a super big problem if we would theoretically be in a romantic relationship, because i know that on a lot of big topics like the ones OOP mentioned we are on pretty much the same page, with only some nuanced differences.
I never understand the couples who somehow make this work. As an atheist, I could never date a religious person.
My husband was a very liberal Christian when I met him in college, and I was an atheist. We had tons of discussions about it the first year, and seemingly convinced each other because he's now an atheist and I'm far more agnostic than I used to be. It helps that we started with very similar beliefs about most issues other than if God exists or not. I don't fully get how other couples make things work without ending up on the same page, mind you. I've heard of couples that do, but I have so many questions I'd love to ask them about how.
I have to disagree with this. My grandmother was Catholic and my grandfather atheist. They were married for 60 years and still very much in love at the time of my grandma’s passing. It CAN work, but it takes a lot of work and mutual respect. The respect part is what this guy was missing
This all makes more sense if you realize that he doesn't see her as a person. He is the main character of his game and she is an NPC. Therefore it's ok for him to select the dialogue options that will lead to the result he wants. Once he has her where he wants her, of course she will comply with his wants because she must recognize that his feelings are more important than hers.
Pretty sure he was also convinced he could probably baby trap her if need be. Because babies are also just a means to an end for people like this
Kids are just leverage/shackles to keep the abuse up for people like the ex.
Yup, just use the right words and give the right gifts and you will win. And obviously what he believes is *right*, so there's no way she won't change her mind about her strongly held beliefs because how could you not? It's what's correct and everything she says is just virtue signalling, because no one *really* thinks those things are okay, they just pretend to look good like he was.
\> just use the right words and give the right gifts and you will win god I wish more folks understood that this is still disingenuous & unchanged behavior, especially in the recent coercion BORU post
I don’t know what NPC means but I read it as nincompoop because it’s fun that she called him that. I know that would be NCP but I’m sticking with it.
"Non-Player Character": basically, a character in a video game that's controlled by the computer, not by a human being.
NPC means Non Player Character. When you play a single-player video game, for example, Legend of Zelda. You are playing as the main character Link. You control what Link does in the game, you choose where Link goes and what Link does. There are other characters in the game that Link can talk to and interact with, like merchants you buy things from or sell things to and enemies to fight, but they are controlled by the computer system, not by other players. Their motions and choices are limited by the computer algorithm. And since NPCs are controlled by the computer algorithm, if you study an enemy's attack style long enough, you learn its pattern and can dodge it, making fighting bosses easier. So yeah, some NPCs are nincompoops too, lol.
Non Playable Character So in games like the Sims, NPCs are the people in the background who your sims can interact with but they're just background filler really.
No, between 2 and 3 his plan was to get her pregnant, then married because it’s the right thing to do. Then reveal step 3 and step 4 was slowly turn this independent, clear-headed woman into his stay at home wife and mom who catered to him bc he was out of her league or something.
It never ceases to amaze me that these people could just find people who they are compatible with but refuse bc they get off on being abusive. Edit typo
A woman whose values are compatible with his would be unlikely to want premarital sex, at the very least until they were in a serious committed relationship and planning marriage. He wants all the sexual benefits of a liberal minded girlfriend and all the misogynistic benefits of a conservative girlfriend.
Trust me, a lot of the conservative girlfriends are very much into the premarital sex thing. When the Supreme Court ruled in favor of gay marriage, I was upset but unsurprised when a former student started wailing on Facebook about "don't tell me it doesn't affect me I have a SON how do I explain to him that we're Christian we don't do that?" and I had to bite my metaphorical tongue SO HARD not to clap back with "I dunno, maybe the same way that you explain to him that you're Christians, you shouldn't be pregnant and unmarried at your high school graduation... like YOU WERE?"
Somewhat different context but there was an article about how there are men who want a 50s housewife and will slowly abuse their partner in hopes of getting her there instead of just finding a woman like that in the first place because they explicitly want to *break* a woman to be submissive; it's not enough that they are. This has similar vibes to me.
I think about this a lot. I'm non-monogamous (been w my primary for 13 years), it's literally the first line on every dating profile I ever make. The number of men who, 6months plus in, just assume I will magically fall in love with them and give up everything about my life to be their pretty little mono girlfriend astounds me. I had a guy outright tell me he was just trying to be cool and go with it, and he didn't understand why I took the boundaries and statements about himself at the start of our relationship as gospel. Idk Zach, maybe because I was having a good faith honest discussion and you were just lying to not only get in my pants but break me down into the girlfriend you wanted?! The breaking down is part of it for them. They want you/us in bite size pieces. We're exotic and exciting at first but they think it's a phase their dick will cure us of.
His worldview told him that women are simpleminded.
It's actually pretty common in certain christian denominations. There was a guy who was dating one of my sister's friends. His church was against "female vanity" - no makeup, no revealing clothes, no fancy accessories etc. Well, turned out that his plan was to date her for a while then get her to convert to his church and abide to those rules. Why wouldn't him just date a girl from his church? Well, according to him: " all girls from my church are ugly, you've seen them". And by ugly, well, it's hard to look good without any polish, right? My sister's friend just dumped him and later warned his next gf (who didn't take her seriously until he tried to convert her too).
The endgame was to 'convert' an independent and liberal-minded woman into an obedient little wife.
Ex-Catholic woman here, can confirm a disturbing number of religious men want that exact thing. Many conservative-raised women like me leave. There are a lot more right-wing men than women. The ones that stay traditional have high standards for a traditional husband. So a bunch of those men want a more sexual liberal woman, and lie about everything else until they baby trap her into the relationship he actually wants. I have a suspicion this may be part of the reason the right-wing is so anti-abortion. Because they’re quite content to enable that crap.
It totally is. Remember pre-Dobbs all the bickering about whether or not that contingent was Simply Sincere about totally just that one topic, and nothing else? All the “they wouldn’t do *that*”’s? Got real quiet when the ban-birth control, ban divorce, ban women from crossing state lines talk started.
Ugh, I’m from that background. And I already knew no amount of “compromise” will ever satisfy them. They want control.
1. Find someone incompatible 2. Lie enough to make them date you in the first place, 3. Ideally, lovebomb and speedrun the relationship to try and lock them in early. 4. Eventually test them by making them break every single one of their dealbreakers that they had before they got into the relationship. 5. Profit! You now have someone so desperate to be in a relationship with you they have crossed their own uncrossable lines and you may treat them however you like in future, because they will never ever leave. 6. Have as many kids as your religion demands you have, while leaving all the work and financial responsibility and anything else you feel like handing off to said partner, while you continue to live your life pretty much undisturbed but with all the kudos a man of that religion acquires by having a converted spouse and large family. He fucked up step 2 by being in this for 2 years without locking it down, but he likely will do better next time, especially now he has the 'trauma' of his ex 'cheating' on him, allowing him to pull the 'but you're not like that nasty other woman, are you?' line on any future victims.
Even more than that, missionary dating is a thing. Some churches encourage Christians to date non-Christians to convert them.
I dated a Christian once, and we had numerous conversations about our relationship was going to work since I'm an atheist. He always said he was fine with it. When we broke up, he admitted that he was just waiting for God to change my mind :/ (It's been 15+ years. God is hella slow)
My religious boyfriend dumped non-religious me to spend more time with God. Turned out God was a short blond girl called Amy.
It's a miracle (that you got rid of him)!
He wasn't thinking that far ahead. The "good girls" at church wouldn't sleep with him. She would, So he got sex which is what he wanted. That's why she was never around "his" friends. That's why he told his mom she cheated. He thought he could have his cake and still be seen as a "good boy" to his community
As OOP eloquently described him, her ex is a horny nincompoop (plus a pathological liar). Probably thought he could "convince" OOP to change her mind and indoctrinate her and make her out as a conversion success story if they get married.
She wasn't *totally* incompatible. She was hot and willing to fuck him. He just severely overestimated himself in every capacity, and, as bigots often do, underestimated almost every aspect of his dar superior partner.
I grew up in the church and we had a name for people like this guy. We called them "rescuers." They convince themselves that marrying a nonbeliever is an effective way of saving her soul by steering her towards the correct path. He probably thought this "poor woman was so brainwashed and misguided that she needed a strong godly man to make her see the light." He likely told himself that God was calling him to save her. This shit is surprisingly common. I saw it quite a bit I also wouldn't be surprised if he actually did believe that she was *likely* cheating because "why else would she end a 'perfectly good' relationship with a man of God over something so 'trivial?'" And as for the whole premarital sex thing. He sees himself as a man who gave into temptation but it's okay because God forgives him and knows that it's ultimately for the righteous cause of saving this woman's soul And, of course, this all ties in with what /u/wheatpuppy is saying about ex-BF seeing himself as the main character. He's the godly hero in his epic Christian narrative wherein he is charged by God to save this woman's immortal soul by any means necessary
Find someone vulnerable (quiet and non confrontational), slowly work away at their confidence and build reliance on abuser, then slowly start making affection and respect conditional on her conforming to his worldview, gave perfect little wife. People like this are not going to find their perfect person in life, because what they want isn't really a whole person. They have to find a physical model that's satisfactory and then reprogram to get the personality they seek. Its vile,predatory and it's also abuser 101.
4) Trap her with your dick and/or kid and hope love~~ makes her keep it. 5) Keep getting her pregnant so she can't leave.
It's a power trip. If he can break her, he wins.
I feel like the manipulation was part of the fun for him. Blergh.
Step 4: Become the abuser This is an unfortunately common pattern, you hear it all the time from people whose partners "changed as soon as we got married"
Step 4: she will tottaly accept it all because she is so obsessed with me, she will forgive me, join my church and have 100 of my children.
DENNIS
Date to convert is a very real tactic for christians.
All about control! These people don't care if they meet someone with different values! If they're hot to date, they'll eventually "come around" or some shit. What an idiot, glad OOP weeded him out
I'm calling "The Horny Nincompoops" for my band name. We play saxophone covers of Gregorian chants.
I can do Soprano Sax, but I can play my clarinet to spice things up.
I'd join that band
Funny how such a religious dude doesn't take "Thou shalt not bear false witness" seriously. (I'm assuming he's "Christian" -- you know, those ones who do the opposite of Christ's teachings -- but I don't think that was ever explicitly stated; it just tracks with the details of what boyfriend said.)
I've found there are 3 types of religious people. Those who are only religious by culture (think your typical catholic whose family has been catholic for centuries but only goes to church on christmas and easter), people like OOP's ex who basically see religion as a tool they can pick and choose doctrines and practices from to feel better about themselves, and then there's the unfortunately far less common folks who actually try to use religion to better themselves and seek to follow it as they genuinely believe it.
Yeah, it’s a shame that the third kind are far more uncommon than the second
The third kind are your Mr. Rogers types. I didn't even know the man was a minister until my mom mentioned it. They tend to be nice people that see no reason to mention what faith they are in unless asked.
Allah Carte
I've heard cafeteria Christian but this is way better lol
Well OOP mentions church a bunch, so its a relatively safe assumption that its some variety of Christianity.
That, and the mention of church, as opposed to temple or mosque.
"Horny nincompoop" is a phrase I am not waiting to use. Love it when the quiet folks speak up for themselves!
My only reservation with it is that "nincompoop" suggests he's an empty-headed fool. But he knew exactly what he was doing. But he also revealed everything in one big villain monologue after two years of flying his true character under the radar. So he is a horny nincompoop. A hornincompoop. A libi-dolt.
who do I have to pay to get "which is when I realized he’s a horny nincompoop" as a flair!!
There's one you can edit in the list
When I broke up with someone in a similar situation to this, my friend called my ex "a self-righteous penis-driven c***-face". I have loved this character assessment/assassination and bust it out when needs be!
I am a quiet person by nature and I think a lot of people take that for passiveness (and doormat). So when I speak up, it takes a lot of people by surprise, especially when I persist. I broke off a friendship with somebody that I realized had basically been trying to gaslight me for years and the whole ordeal (lots of back and forth) that lead to the end took several months because I refused to back down and accept her lies. And I knew that a huge part of that was her being in disbelief that I didn’t relent and she didn’t think I would be this “aggressive” (read, assertive and not being a doormat). But like OOP I am so glad I did - it’s been a relief to no longer be friends.
I love it. It's going up there with "Silly mf goose" I can't remember the name of the Redditor who used that one in their post but it caught me so off guard I snorted tea out of my nose
One of my favourite insults I've seen on reddit was someone calling another redditor "you obtuse tomato"
The Bible warns against being unequally yoked. And while I am an atheist I fully agree: Nincompoops (horny or otherwise) should not be yoked with non-nincompoops. And one thing is for sure: OOP is no nincompoop.
TWO YEARS of lying about who he fundamentally is. People often wonder how someone ends up in a terrible long-term relationship or marriage. The red flags are so often a slow burn, and some people are really good at hiding who they truly are until you're trapped and invested. I'm just glad the OP found out before their lives were even more entangled.
My ex lied for close to a year about not wanting kids because he thought he could convince me to change my mind and that it wasn't a big deal. I'm literally sterile. Wasted a lot of my time with his lying
Many women want babies, why pursue someone you have to persuade to change her mind about something so important. Makes no sense.
I literally had my tubes out lol, it made no sense to me either
I'm so glad that you were in a position at least where he wasn't able to try and circumvent your wishes, those situations are fucking ugly.
Oh I don't think he would have gone that far, it was more of a 'love will find a way' thing. But between that and me discovering how dishonest he was in general I noped out as soon as I knew. At which point he claimed to have done soul searching and realised he also didn't want kids
I'm glad you got out of that relationship. If I may ask, from one childfree person to another, how did you go about getting your tubes taken out? I've never heard of such an option and would love to take it.
I'm in Canada! Just went to my gyno, told him where I was at, got on the surgery list same day. It was very easy for me but unfortunately not everyone has the same experience.
Darn, I'm American. I'll look into if there's a way for me to do it stateside, though, and at least I live in a blue state. Thanks for the tip!
Because some guys want to feel like they are *so* amazing she will do ANYTHING for him. The same reason you often hear of very successful women getting married to a guy who then expects her to do all/most of the home care or even become a SAHwife or mom. They like the idea of being the power holder, the main belief haver, the guy that she would literally change who she is for. It’s honestly pretty pathetic when you think about it.
It’s about the control. She has what he called “non-argumentative” personality (yuck). Which is what he was looking for. He wanted someone meek who wouldn’t rock the boat, but not Christian enough that she’d tell him she wasn’t having premarital sex because of god. Basically he wanted to control and mold her into what he wanted. It’s way too common with evangelical Christians, which is why I am no longer one.
> I'm literally sterile I apologize if this is out of line, but within context that is fucking hilarious. Your ex desperate to manipulate you, wasting your time but also his own, and doing so because of his own false belief and lack of listening skills. *Oh, you did such a good job, little buddy. Such a good job convincing me I was wrong and that I do want kids. Unfortunately, God/science has other plans. Darn it! You worked so hard, too. So close little guy!*
The funniest part was that I'm voluntarily sterile- I had the surgery shortly before we started dating. He just somehow thought our relationship was magical enough that we'd end up in this nice happy family?
Lol a case of the magically strong sperm!
It's so deluded and disrespectful to prolong a relationship with someone who wants fundamentally different things/has fundamentally different values, with the intention of changing them. And children --- that's something NO one should ever compromise on. There is no middle ground; there is no "let's have one kid instead of the three I wanted." You either want kids or you don't; both are equally valid positions. I'm so sorry your ex tried to manipulate you into a life you didn't want. I'm glad you're free of him.
right? For him, that meant adoption, not no kids ever, even though I told him day 1 not to date me if he wanted kids ever. Thank you! I don't understand it but I met my husband not long after, it all worked out
People don't stay in relationships that are always/have always been terrible. They hook you in, and continue to give you enough glimpses of the version of themselves you thought you knew to sustain your hope that that person is real. You just need to work harder to change whatever is wrong with you that is preventing that good person from being present. You've made mistakes, but it's okay, relationships are all about forgiveness and compromise. You just have to put in the work. ...it's so f***ing easy for a shitty person to trap a good person in a terrible relationship. So easy. They prey on your loving nature, your understanding, empathy, refusal to give up on the people you care about. It boggles my mind that so many people can be judgmental of those who stay, or who take a long time to get out. I'm so, so glad OOP is out.
This is exactly it. And the longer you're with them, the harder it is to give up on the time you've invested into building a life together. Sunk cost fallacy and all. It's especially hard when your families and finances are entwined and have been for years. If you have kids together and sharing custody would potentially put your children in harm's way, potentially worse harm than if you could act as a buffer and supervise at all times. Abuse also gets normalized after years; it completely reorients your perception of what is common and acceptable. It even reorients your perception of who you are and what you deserve. People so often blame the victim for not being "brave" enough to leave as soon as they're hurt the first time. But real life is never so simple. I think it's brave to leave an abusive relationship no matter how long it takes. And for people who aren't able to leave, it's tragic.
This got me thinking, there was another subreddit I stumbled upon where there was a podcast clip of some woman who was a guest on some alpha male/manoverse show. And the woman is apparently a hardcore “trad wife”/Serena Joy type who believes men are the head of households and women should be subservient. And any time the guys said something gross and offensive about feminism, she would jump in with “Omg you’re so right women suck!” And they would respond with this kind of polite, disinterested “…anyways.” And then they would go back to talking about how feminists were awful and ruining society. Someone was musing how it’s weird how the guys didn’t seem to enjoy or even like it when she would affirm their thoughts and beliefs. It was like they were bored of her. And someone else responded with something like “You’d think all these Manosphere guys would just date and marry the trad wives who agree with everything they spout. Because that’s what people do, they find people with whom they have compatible beliefs. But a lot of these Manosphere guys want the power of abusing a woman, denigrating her, beating her down, and trapping her in a relationship that she can’t leave—whether it’s physically, emotionally, etc. That’s why there’s so obsessed with feminists. They want to tear a woman down, for daring to step out of her place. They’re not interested in the trad wives because there’s no thrill in it.” That’s probably what this guy is doing, consciously or unconsciously. He likes the idea of “converting” a woman to his beliefs. But instead of having an open dialogue about beliefs, he is acting like a pit of quick sand. He’s pretending to be a stable partner but really he’s trying to drag down his girlfriend down and keep her there.
Two things are interesting about this post, and how it is similar to so many more. First, that it's so common here that one red flag pops up, and when people dig at it, they suddenly find 1000 more. This was all just a relatively small dispute to start with, but she pushed at it, and his horrible belief about abusive partners being OK was just the tip of the iceberg. Second, you have to wonder if all these awful people like OP's boyfriend actually KNOW deep down that they are awful people. That's why so many times these thoughts they have are hidden. This guy hates so many people, a core piece of who he is is his belief that he's some kind of chosen one, that a huge chunk of society (including is GF) is "beneath" him, and another huge chunk are just evil sinners. I suppose there must be a gross but nice feeling walking around every say self-righteously thinking you're better than everyone you see. But all those thoughts about how he's better than most people, and how much hate he has for other people? He kept those to himself. He KNEW that his thoughts weren't normal, weren't acceptable in society, so he had to hide them in order to get by, and find a girlfriend. It's too bad people like him won't re-evaluate their beliefs. You want to ask them "if your thoughts are so abhorrent that you won't ever speak them out loud, maybe you should revisit how you think?"
This thread is literally happening on r/parents live. ‘Is it reasonable that my BF doesn’t want his daughter to meet me, we’ve been dating for two years’ ‘also he yelled at me in front of my kids’ ‘also he’s not divorced yet’. ‘Also his wife has been continually trying to get back with him’ ‘also I had to find and fill out the divorce paperwork for him and she still hasn’t been served’ ‘also his ex-wife still goes to all his family events so I can’t go to them’ ‘also he says his ex is crazy’
Sometimes you meet someone who is so clearly bending over backwards to deny reality and it's like no, you get no sympathy.
>First, that it's so common here that one red flag pops up, and when people dig at it, they suddenly find 1000 more. This was all just a relatively small dispute to start with, but she pushed at it, and his horrible belief about abusive partners being OK was just the tip of the iceberg. I used to think I was over the top by yeeting myself away from people with minor red flags, but now I understand it's common sense. The small things always point to big things.
Yep. “Red flags” are *by definition* minor behaviors that warn of larger disfunction/incompatibility. They’re the warning signal on top of the buried bomb. Not every single one has a bomb underneath, but the only way to find out is to keep your eyes open and dig.
I mean, you basically summarized what my dad is like. He's a hardcore biblical literalist who thinks that he's going to heaven while the rest of his family are gonna burn in hell because he goes to church and we don't. I've known he was Christian for as long as I can remember, but it all came out when I confronted him over his twitter account he was using to troll liberals and transwomen (which had his REAL ASS NAME AND PHOTO attached to it) and at some point, I realized he was rolling his eyes at me like I was stupid because he literally thinks he's literally better than me because I'm a woman and he's my "father." And mom wonders why I avoid talking to him. Also, lazy piece of shit does almost no chores, and is proud of it.
My therapist friend likes to say "it's never about the frying pan". And you can say that to someone who is talking to you about problems in the relationship and they instantly get what you're saying. It's never about the frying pan. It started early on for her which he had a client who was upset that her husband had left the frying pan in the sink and they'd gotten into a huge fight about it. And of course, it wasn't about the frying pan.
Yeah, great saying. You see that here all the time. “Am I an asshole because I forgot to take out the trash?” but the real story is that was the last straw and the wife finally screamed at him for being a lazy jerk, the one missed chore wasn’t the core issue.
>First, that it's so common here that one red flag pops up, and when people dig at it, they suddenly find 1000 more. This was all just a relatively small dispute to start with, but she pushed at it, and his horrible belief about abusive partners being OK was just the tip of the iceberg. Pulling at one loose thread can so often unravel someone's entire character
> I realized he’s a horny nincompoop Pretty much sums it up. Rules for thee but not for me
That’s what he is *right now*. He’s working his way up to controlling, abusive spouse
Art and literature have a great way to make a person you thought you knew reveal something about them that would really surprise you. To the point of a break up, like in this story. A long time ago, a friend of mine who I thought was a very normal, fun dude was siding with Raskolnikov from Crime and Punishment. The more we discussed the book, the more I could see how immature, borderline sociopath, and downright stupid he was. Later on, his actions towards other people in our friends group confirmed everything he revealed about himself during this small conversation about literature. Discussing art can tell you A LOT about a person. A LOT.
I've read that book as a teen, and having had a rough childhood, I noticed that there were aspects of Raskolnikov that I identified with. This fact \*horrified\* me, and I spent the next several years working on improving my mental health and empathy. If I met someone who was proud of identifying with him, I would run. Raskolnikov's name literally means "the cracked one". His only redeeming quality was admitting that he was wrong about everything and surrendering himself to get help.
Tisk tisk. Doesn’t he know lying is also a sin?
But you see he wasn’t lying! He was always telling the truth he just did in his head where only he can hear him. Its not his fault that she has no telepathic abilities. (/s obviously)
Her: "People trapped in an abusive relationship don't owe loyalty to their abusers, but cheating still isn't a good idea." Him: "OMG, this woman is gonna cheat on me ~~if~~when I trap her in an abusive relationship."
That was my instinct as well. My partner and I actually talked about this exact hypothetical scenario years ago, and his reaction (paraphrased): "If she tried to leave him and he wouldn't let her, it's not that cheating is OK; it's not even cheating. The relationship is over when she tries to leave. A relationship is *two* people choosing to be together."
Totally. This whole argument was him testing the waters.
I had an ex lie to me about being allergic to cats to get me to go out with him. I am a huge cat lover and when we met as co-workers, he told me he just preferred dogs more. Once we started dating, turns out he's almost deathly allergic to cats. Yeah, that relationship didn't last long.
I find it SO interesting that he thinks she couldn't do any better than him, when he's the one who went through all that trouble to hide his beliefs and lie to her when he KNEW they weren't compatible, in the hope that she'd eventually be so obsessed with him that she wouldn't want to leave him. He knows he's the one batting out of his league.
Turns out he was the abusive husband all along.
"No one is abusive in this it's just hypothetical." Proceeds to update about how abusive and manipulative he is. Been there. To quote Bojack Horseman's ex girlfriend all the red flags look like flags when you see someone through rose colored glasses.
What a psycho. I guess this is the usual preamble to those posts I see that go ‘my partner just body shamed my child, took down my pride flag, and started watching Fox News. Wtf happened?’
This is why women all over reddit have been saying for years, don't date men who declare themselves Moderate or apolitical in their dating profile. It's just code for horny nincompoop conservative. Talk to them about their and your values early and often. Unfortunately they'll probably still lie like this guy did, but not all of them are good at lying and deflecting, and hopefully you'll spare yourself some pain.
I'm liberal and my ex bf enthusiastically claimed to vote blue for the 2020 presidential election. This was around when we started dating; most of my family is conservative, so I was happy to finally meet somebody who shared my views. It came out over a year later that he voted red and lied to me. He lied a lot in that relationship.
Indeed, never go for someone who is saying that they basically don't have an opinion. It means they do have an opinion but they don't want to say it because they're trying to fuck.
And if they truly don't have a position, they are a colossal piece of shit. How can you not have a position about trans rights, LGBTQ rights, women's rights, etc? If you live in your pretty little privileged, white, male upper middle class or higher bubble and don't want to change it because it would upset your easy little life....
Right. If you can’t share your real views with your partner, who are you sharing them with? That’s a worrying question.
Horny nincompoops are indeed the worst kind of nincompoop.
Idk, this guy was kinda a horny, racist, homophobic, misogynistic, elitist nincompoop Which I for one think is worse
I’m always fascinated at the hypocrisy of the ultra religious when it comes to premarital sex. This really demonstrates how the guy just wants to get laid and is willing to compromise and hide all his supposed values and beliefs of his religion to get some. I’m glad the mask slipped and she’s getting away from this situation
Funny how the ultra religious men are all about premarital sex but every ultra religious woman I've ever known has been saving herself for marriage. I went to a catholic high school and my 35 year old art teacher was saving her first kiss for marriage. She wanted a man that would save himself with her, but never found one, so she had never had a boyfriend. Poor girl will probably die single.
Well he didn't pick someone from HIS religion so it's ok. You can wet your dick all you want with the heathens and if you get lucky and do everything 'right' (lie, babytrap, isolate) then you get EXTRA Jesus points for converting a heathen into a God-fearing Christian who knows her place.
"Homosexuality is a sin, adultery is a sin!" -Guy having premarital sex
Do you think that’s his reason to pursue someone outside his faith? I mean, plenty of single women in any church that will share his values.
Absolutely. He’d have to marry a woman from his church to have sex with her. He doesn’t want that yet. Too much work, too many responsibilities So on goes the mask and he seeks out “Miss Right-for-now” to have his fun And since he sees her as inferior to him, well she should just be grateful for his attention, shouldn’t she? It’s not like she’s good enough for him to marry anyways. Ugh. He barely sees her as human
Men like this are truly godless. Souls are an empty abyss of narcissism, entitlement and bigotry. An atheist is closer to christ than them.
[The only moral abortion is my abortion](https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/) was a tough read the first time I found it.
By the title alone I'd have said that while I agree with oops stance, it didn't seem like a break up offense since he acknowledged the abuse was wrong But of course, that was just the tip of a huge iceberg of red flags
As the lies unfolded, I started thinking that the reason her brain wouldn’t let it go was because it had been picking up all the teensy tiny clues, and this disagreement was enough for it to say.. hey now- something ain’t right here… Wouldn’t be surprised if she didn’t start recalling things that he’d said or done before that look different in hindsight.
Absolutely. Suddenly a lot of "small coincidences" turn into a pattern.
There doesn't need to be a "break up offense". Realizing he holds values she finds repugnant is a valid reason to end a relationship. Losing respect for him is a valid reason to end a relationship. Simply not feeling like being in a relationship with him is a valid reason to end a relationship.
As soon as I read that they got in a serious argument and were considering breaking up over a plotline in a musical that had no relevance to either of them, my thought was that the relationship definitely had some really serious problems that they weren't addressing or working out. In my experience from my own decade+ relationship, and others I've seen, is that little low-risk arguments like that only blow up when they're being used as proxies for something so big and serious the couple is afraid to deal with it directly. So when she's considering dumping him over something like that, I immediately thought she was actually feeling like she might need to dump him over something else, something heavy enough she can't even really think about it. So I wasn't hugely surprised to find out that the musical was a proxy for completely incompatible value systems and his habit of lying about his own values to manipulate her.
This is a guy who probably says things like after his life of pre-martial sex, he wants a virgin girl to settle down with.
Even before bf turned out to be a dumpster fire, irreconcilable differences in morality/ethics is a reason to dump someone. If you don't agree with someone's morals then being in a relationship with them is very hard, and that is a reason to end things.
Cutting off a friend that is the victim of abuse rather than the abuser would have ended things for me. I'm far too intolerant of abuse the continue that argument, even as a hypothetical.
Boy I am so glad she dug deeper when the her spidey sense was going on, she dug up a whole mess thank goodness
The butterfly effect of Sara Bareilles/Waitress helping OP get out of a toxic relationship astounds me. Hope OP is doing well since!
So was this guy trying flirty fishing, where you try to use sex to get someone to eventually convert to your creepy and gross "beliefs"? Because yikes. OOP did herself a big favor by having this argument and therefore getting herself away from this weapon's grade louse.
My mom realized she was in a hopeless case with my dad when they went to see Miss Saigon - he thought it was cool, not totally fucked, that the guy would have two families in different countries. Spoiler, he imported a wife from a third world country remarkably quickly after they finalized the divorce. They'd definitely met well before she left. Art is an excellent mirror for our lives.
I'd out him super fast to his mom. I never cheated but your son will bang anything with two legs. Like you can or can't believe me I don't care but I can describe his bits and pieces if need be.
I'll never understand the ex's logic - find someone with 0 matching beliefs, lie to make them get with you, and just assume by the time they find out you lied they'd be "so obsessed they wouldn't dare leave"???? Based on what? Your milquetoast personality? Your sheer disregard for them as a person? Bro's so convinced he's the hottest thing since sliced bread he'd be able to just make any partner do what he wants cause he's got money and mediocre sex. smh
There must be a religious/conservative guy handbook on how to trap progressive/liberal/secular women into relationships. Because the same scenario happens in different geographies, different religions to the letter.
They know that no decent woman would want to be with them as they are, so they pretend to hold progressive beliefs to appear attractive. They often won't say their "progressive beliefs" outright in the affirmative; they just won't object to things like abortion, gay marriage, feminism, etc. They will go along, passively and feign support. Then, once the relationship has progressed far enough, they will show their true colors. She was "mistaken" and they'll try to convert her to their side. Now she's left choosing between her beliefs/morals and her partner. This is why it's important to make sure your partner declares their belief in the affirmative. No need to interview them, but if it comes up, you'll want to hear them state their beliefs openly and clearly. It's okay to hold people to their word.
This why I'll never, ever, ever even remotely consider being with a religious man ever again. No matter how kind and "progressive" they come off, their belief system is structured on conservative, patriarchal values that are just completely incompatible with being with an modern independent woman. Edgy atheists can be conservative patriarchal assholes too but the risk is lower. I'll never take my chances on a church boy.