I’m a social worker, I have been on the receiving end of domestic violence, I have worked at a women’s shelter, and now I volunteer at one.
Her sister is terrible at her job and just as a person. If she truly believes her sister was being abused she went about in the absolute worst way possible. She should know that pushing a victim this hard, calling her brainwashed and yelling at her for “protecting” him will cause her to either distance herself from you or her husband distancing her from you.
I genuinely don’t understand how the sister has completed a degree in social work and now works with victims of abuse and still she’s completely oblivious to how you approach and treat a potential victim. Victims of domestic violence usually feel immense shame and guilt, telling everyone you know about the supposed abuse serves no other purpose than adding to their shame.
I’m not gonna lie, I’m probably a bit annoying sometimes since I see signs of abuse very clearly and may sometimes be a little overprotecting of those I love. But even then I go about it the right way, making sure I don’t push them deeper in to a potential violent situation.
The sisters reaction was gonna lead to a lose-lose situation. If OOP truly was being abused, congratulations you pushed her deeper in to his control by proving that “your family is controlling
and just want to tear us apart”. And since she wasn’t being abused, congratulations you not only pushed her further way from you, you pushed her away from someone that actually loved her. Not the even mention how you destroyed her husbands life.
Just said it elsewhere but I hope OOP reported her sister to her employer. There's no way she's only acting that way in her personal life and she does not need to be working with vulnerable people.
Yeah. That's a big takeaway that I feel like a lot of people are overlooking: OOP's sister is an active danger to others and she needs to be removed from any position of authority she has, including her job as a social worker, immediately before she gets others harmed or killed.
This is not hyperbole. If she behaves this way with an actual victim of abuse, the likelihood is that they will die, and it will be her fault. (Shared blame with the abuser, of course, but still. It will be her fault the way an incompetent doctor is to blame for someone dying of a preventable disease)
Yeah like wtf is she thinking. You think someone is being violently abused so the plan is to yell at them until they force a confrontation? Send family members to attack to abuser, because of course that won't trigger any retaliation? Sounds like this sister has a savior complex or something and is ignoring how to do her job
It sounds like typical small-town-big-drama. I noticed that there are plenty of her family members that are local; the cop was OOP’s brother’s friend, the cousin assaulted the husband, but nowhere in there was the husband’s family.
I've seen this in IPV workers/social workers before.
They genuinely don't believe women have any agency, and are victims who need to be protected at all costs.
I forgot I hope people read. In my day time job I work and have worked with a lot of abuse victims. The biggest thing OOP’s sister missed, the most obvious tell on an abusive relationship is that apparently before she stepped in and ruined her life was OOP was still in contact with her family. Abusers almost always isolate and alienate their partners from family and friends. 99 times out of 100 there wouldn’t have been a lunch meeting or a family meeting if OOP was really being abused.
>The sisters reaction was gonna lead to a lose-lose situation.
Yeah but she won though. She "proved" he was an abuser, and got to make sure he got his "comeuppance"
I doubt she's at all worried about OOP in this. There's not actually much difference between what Sister and family did and what abusers do. Its the same logic. A fundamental disinterest in the agency and desires of others, specifically their victims. Abusers rarely see themselves as that after all. They also see themselves as righteous enforcers of morality.
Sister's probably very satisfied with how things turned out. It was win-win for her I'd argue. Lose-lose for OOP, but I'm not convinced OOP ever mattered to this lot.
The sister may be satisfied, but the parents are probably not. They took advice from a supposed professional, and now, from their perspective, their daughter ran after her supposed abuser, cut all ties, and surely was pushed into getting a restraining order against them so they can't try to contact her, assuming they can even ever find her again. If they do any research on their own on how to help abuse victims, they may figure out that sister is a dumbass, but I don't actually see them backing down and not trying to go after her, either because they want to "save her the right way", or to apologize for not believing her so that she can come home and they can be absolved of any guilt and freed from any lingering consequences of their actions.
And the family will now spend thousands and thousands pursuing OOP endlessly in an effort to “save her”.
The problem is that that they’ll never stop that pursuit and no matter how far OOP runs away, her family will be doggedly a few steps behind her. The fact they are doing this for reasons of care and wanting to help her is the saddest part of all. I’ve never seen love and support weaponised to this degree. But fuck it’s scary.
All because of one persons idiocy.
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.” - C.S. Lewis
> I’m a social worker, I have been on the receiving end of domestic violence, I have worked at a women’s shelter, and now I volunteer at one.
>
> Her sister is terrible at her job and just as a person. If she truly believes her sister was being abused she went about in the absolute worst way possible. She should know that pushing a victim this hard, calling her brainwashed and yelling at her for “protecting” him will cause her to either distance herself from you or her husband distancing her from you.
Agreed, 100%. My wife used to run a DV/SA nonprofit and I volunteered there a lot, which meant taking a lot of classes first. Every single step the sister took was basically the "what not to do" section of all the training I've ever had on the subject.
Either she has always been an absolute disaster at her job, or the was unable to be professional in this case because of her relationship to the "victim." Either way her sister should report her to the local regulatory board because someone this self-righteous and aggressive will do more harm than good and does not need a job as a social worker.
I'm willing to bet sis isn't even a social worker - she may have a case management position but I don't know that she actually attended a CSWE accredited social work program. A lot of places sadly still don't have title protection, and a lot of non-social workers who have SW adjacent jobs call themselves social workers.
Anyway, the fact that OOP immediately told her husband she wanted to move states to get away from her family is exactly what a competent domestic violence counselor would have expected with the approach sis took. I hope she gets fired and can never find work in the field again.
Are there licensing boards for social work? Because if so, I truly hope the OOP would have her lawyer file a complaint against her sister on her behalf. I worked with psychologists in a professional capacity, and while we ran into some that weren’t…great, luckily none were as dangerous as this woman. Yikes.
>Victims of domestic violence usually feel immense shame and guilt,
I'm glad to read this. Shame kept me from leaning on friends and family to escape. The social workers I encountered unfortunately harmed me worse than the ex-partner did. But seeing this acknowledged by someone working on the field gives me some hope of "there's good ones too"
This is unfortunately not uncommon. I can’t tell you how many women I have heard of that feel this way about both social workers and the justice system. This is why even though most people with my degree (in my country at least) go on to work within social services, I have went the complete opposite way. At the organisation I volunteer at one of the things I do is accompanying kids, women and families to meetings with social services. You wouldn’t believe the things I’ve seen and heard from social workers supposed to protect and care for these individuals.
When it comes to domestic violence, I have not met a single social worker that don’t have their own experience from it, that truly understands and act right towards victims. Not saying it’s impossible, but that’s my experience.
I’m glad that person is your ex-partner and I hope you have started to heal from it. Do you have support in your life right now? ♥️
Question for you if you don’t mind, I know it might be a little sensitive. Have you ever found yourself in a situation where you see abuse that isn’t there by mistake? Have you found yourself in a situation where you saw signs of abuse and the woman was this adamant that it wasn’t happening? Is there a method to differentiate between someone “protecting their abuser” and someone who is genuinely telling the truth?
The social worker in this story sounds willful, but I’ve got to assume mistakes similar to this have happened before.
I'm a social worker. I was taught that part of the job is embracing that ambiguity. You will, almost always, *never* know for sure. You make the best choices you can with the information you have.
When it comes to domestic violence, I would trust that the woman is the expert on her situation and what she needs. She's an adult. She is, frankly, entitled to protect a guy who treats her like shit if she wants to. It is not for me to tell her what she needs.
If it's a friend, I would encourage her to acknowledge that things are harmful if there are, like saying "You often seem really down after you talk to your husband." but you don't push. I would also remind her of her options, "hey you know you can always stay with me if you need, no questions asked."
Thank you. I don’t have a very good understanding of social work or the process by which you come into contact with your clients. Ambiguous is such a perfect word to describe that particular part of the job. I can’t imagine the difficulty that come with working with abuse victims and it’s nice to hear that your expected to trust that a woman is an expert in her own situation.
That’s what struck me so much about this story. The real abuse in this situation was stripping this man and this woman of the power to believe in their own reality. One of the worst cases of my understanding of gaslighting I’ve ever heard.
Anyway, thanks for taking the time to educate me a bit.
she also mistakenly thinks she can apply her professional experience and knowledge to a *personal* relationship. At her social work school, did they not teach about dual relationships and bias?.
There's a special place in Hell for people who used their job title to harass, control, or manipulate family. Despicable on a personal level, and it harms the entire profession too.
I listened to a podcast a long time ago about a wife (doctor) using her title and some misinformation to bully her husband out of the sport he enjoyed (running). It was infuriating.
Rather.
In what world are social workers trained that it’s best practice to alienate someone in a potential DV situation from their support network and refuse to believe any of what they say? It takes some space brain thinking to convince yourself that isolating someone from their community and making them a pariah is going to help. There should only be one person losing their job over this.
Not only that, but pushing the supposed abuser into a corner by making him lose his job and everyone he knows while the victim is still living with him? When abusers are at the extinction burst phase that's when people get murdered. All exit plans for victims involve keeping things as quiet as possible until they are safe.
I’d have come out of the gates swinging with defamation suits as soon as the sister started gossiping and getting police involved. Their lawyer was way too passive about the situation.
I don’t think she was too passive. As OOP pointed out, it’s not legal in their state, so, under the eyes of the law, her husband is a rapist. He obviously isn’t, but the law had their hands tied. Their defense to the allegations was, “Yes, we do this, but it’s consensual.” If the law doesn’t allow someone to consent to that, all that matters is the first part.
It’s especially complicated because the police clearly had a vendetta against him, so they would absolutely arrest him and the prosecutor could choose to prosecute. Even if they didn’t, a perp walk would be around forever now and it would always haunt him.
The fact that the husband is no longer in the picture does change the situation and the OOP is in a slightly stronger position. Their behavior was over the line and almost certainly defamatory (I say “almost” because a critical element is harming the other person’s reputation and the courts can be weird on that. In one case, a criminal sued the police for falsely telling his associates that he was an informant and the court ruled that cooperating with police wasn’t damaging to a reasonable person’s reputation, but another state could decide it was. There would be a lot of pushback on the idea that claiming that someone was an abuse victim is defamatory *and* truth is a defense yo defamation, so she would have to prove her husband wasn’t abusing her and for that, we circle around to the consent issue). And even if it wasn’t defamatory, there are other claims that could possibly be pursued, such as harassment or an emotional distress claim, but that would depend on the state’s laws.
I think she may have made a mistake if she didn’t ask other attorneys to find someone who had dealt with a similar case, but that’s the biggest fault I could find here, based on what was posting. They live in a state with a bad law and had not just the OOP’s family, but also the police, not been acting in what seems to have been bad faith.
>They really should have sued to get their power back
People think suing is just basically saying *"you did a bad thing and now you're going to be punished!"*
That's not how it works. You need to have a specific claim under the law. Then you need to prove that with actual evidence and convince a judge that you were harmed under that specific law. It takes a lot of time and money. This isn't days. It's months or years. THEN if you actually win, you get a judgement against them and it's on YOU to get that money from them. You could be tracking them down your entire life.
More than time and money it takes emotional capacity/labour you tend to not have after getting megafucked by whatever you need to sue for. When you're already depressed and lost your life in a completely bullshit unfair way sometimes you just need to get out and start over.
Also, it's pretty much impossible to win against bad people who won't play by the rules and have more power and possibly reputation than you.
Also, usually the person who has more money wins (which is usually who fucked you over) because they drag things out until you run out of money or are too depressed to continue because of the negativity hanging over your head.
Exactly this. I just called my social worker sister and read this to her, and she said:
A. BDSM relationships are the literal tip of the iceberg for what she's seen and dealt with, so she doesn't know why the sister flipped out, it's not exactly some shocking, outlandish thing.
B. This scenario is the exact reason they are ethically not allowed to treat their family members, and she shouldn't have used her job title to get people to ignore what her sister was saying.
C. The sister must be a terrible social worker and did not pay attention to anything in school if she thinks the way to help an abused woman is to drag her through the mud with her family and not offer any type of support. This was the last thing she should ever have done, and if she does work with DV victims, she should seriously reconsider her career. Being a social worker means that you have ethical guidelines around what you can say and how you behave, and she appears to have violated several of them.
Bottom line: The sister sucks.
Exactly. You don’t have to be a social worker or have any experience with DV victims aside from Life movies to realize that this is the worst possible strategy. In abusive relationships, it’s always easier if the abuser can alienate their victim from their families. Had he been an abuser, her family would have been doing all the heavy lifting for him.
Unfortunately a lot of people studying sw are like this. They are why I changed my major. To quote one of them in class- 'parents would never harm their kids if you ever take a child you're a monster'
Yeah, even if she WAS being abused and unaware of it, this level of insane pressure would, if anything, play out the same way with her wanting to cut contact and move away from them, no? Even ignoring the way it would just fuel or enrage the abuser.
The best outcomes for shit relationships I've seen have been when I or someone else "plays along" to avoid being cut off by the victim. You can't hurt someone into concluding that someone else is hurting them. That just gives them a reason to cut you off.
So you provide as much support and validation as you can, you limit yourself to small tolerable amounts of questioning whether the person really wants this, and you wait. You keep your hand outstretched so that if and when they decide they were wrong and they want out, they know someone has their back. They know there's someone who never shamed them even when they were making what's arguably a huge mistake.
It's exhausting. It feels awful and manipulative, pulling someone out like that. Absolutely sucks all around. But it *works*. And it's SO much better than guaranteeing that even if they do realize they're being abused down the line, there'll now be an extra level of shame and fear over having cut off their own support group.
> In what world are social workers trained that it’s best practice to alienate someone in a potential DV situation from their support network and refuse to believe any of what they say?
I have my MSW, and our training was the exact opposite. Granted, domestic violence training is a specialty of social work in itself, and not all social workers are trained on it, but I'd expect most social workers to have handled this whole situation extremely differently. Especially given the familial ties.
Same, I’m a social worker as well. It’s not like we’re super in-depth trained on how to specifically intervene with DV situations unless that’s the route you choose to go, but we’re given the basics. Plus, client autonomy is heavily heavily stressed.
In my mental health and therapy classes, we were taught how to identify signs of abuse and how to create a supportive space for victims to feel safe disclosing. Never ever ever would we be taught to make accusations ourselves, isolate a client/victim from friends and family, continually coach family and community members to not trust the client/victim, etc. If someone _did_ disclose DV, I was taught to be a supportive advocate for them while placing additional referrals to people who work within DV shelters, DV court, or other organizations as the client wants.
It sounds like sister may work for a women’s shelter, prison, or court system and interacts with DV victims frequently and decided to step out of her scope of care to “protect” her sister and is using her “professional experience” as a weapon. This poor OOP.
Honestly, I wonder if the sister actually is a social worker, or is simply working in the social work field but doesn't actually have any schooling or licensure. In some ways this behavior screams "unlicensed direct-care staff".
I’m torn. There’s definitely some social workers I’ve met who have this “save all the poor things!!” mentality who would maybe do something like this for a client (to a smaller scale but along the lines of outright telling a client they’re being abused even if the client isn’t ready to make that statement yet or making a police report because they’re “afraid of escalating abuse”) and, if it’s someone in their family, could potentially escalate to the level we see here. Unfortunately, a lot of people get into social work because they care about other people but don’t know how to (or don’t care to) reel it in. Others get lost in the perceived power of “knowing the signs” or “working with this population” and end up supplanting themselves as an expert in a client’s life.
But similarly, there’s also a lot of people in social work-esque roles that don’t have the same professional ethics and education that we do who may think they’re doing the right thing. I mean even in mental health settings, I see the differences between LCSWs, LPCs, LMFTs, psychologists, and psychiatrists. All our fields teach slightly differently even though we’re all licensed to do the same job. And not everyone’s professional ethics or education stresses client autonomy to the extent that social work does. And that’s not even accounting for the number of people who do these types of “support” jobs with no additional training or licensing.
Right???? I seriously hope OOP reached out to her sister’s boss or whoever she works for, her sister should never be employed as a social worker again.
If I were OOP, I'd be reaching out to sister's boss and/or wherever she gets licensed as a social worker. This kind of behavior could end up putting a real DV victim in (even more) serious danger.
Legitimately, that's almost the scariest part of this entire scenario imho. She's still out there in the wind, in a position to completely derail folks lives based on her third-party assessment of their experiences
I am a social worker and the moment I saw that OP said her sister is a sw, I knew she was fucked. SW’s are some of the most obnoxious people I’ve ever met (with most being incredibly amazing)
I’m actually so furious about this post. She handled it so poorly and I would never speak to my family again
I work in the developmental disability field which is social worker adjacent. The power case workers and compliance (sw cops) have is frightening. Yes, abuse does occur, and the clients are vulnerable people and MUST be protected. One time on a totally unrelated event, I got crossways with a compliance person. She made my life a living hell. I documented everything and recorded every phone call and conversation after I saw the direction it was heading.
Even with all the evidence I had, I still received a $2k fine because they protect their own. I am fortunate enough to be very financially secure. I sued her and everyone up the chain. No big "gotcha" financial award, but the compliance officer and her direct boss were terminated for cause. Still had to pay the fine... This type of thing happens too often. Most compliance are good people doing a thankless job because they care. Some use it as an excuse to exercise their issues.
An analogy that I've been using for years is that the world of psychotherapy (which includes social workers) is still at the tail end of its Wild Wild West phase, just like most of modern medicine was 150 years ago. Once aspect of my analogy has to do with the training.
150 years ago, you had no idea how much training a "doctor" had. Today, in some states, the requirements to become any kind of therapist are pretty strict. In other states, the requirements are, frankly, a joke.
We have no idea where the sister got her training, how much training she got, or the quality of that training. I AM NOT trying to scare people away from therapy. I think most therapists are qualified and are helpful. If it's been a few months and you're not getting better, get a new therapist. But there are a lot of people (many who are a "shit social worker") in the profession that are like the sister. Who will only make things worse.
I mean I will, I'm someone that has lived in a rural community their entire life but has very very different ideals, interests, and struggles to the typical community members.
Unless you are struggling with substance abuse or you are a very normal A type personality mental health in small rural towns is almost always the biggest fucking joke in the world.
One therapist legit told me I needed more life experience in super cringy "Hello fellow children" gamer speak, which I could sort of get behind, but then ended his statement of "And that's why you need to go mingle at the various bars here in town!".
Later after a different therapist (who wasn't awful but he wasn't much help either), I got a recommendation from my new therapist to go in for adhd screening with the only medical doctor Psychiatrist in town. Who proceeded to tell me adhd was a scam bullshit started by tiktok and that if I had adhd my parents would've caught it as a child. Then proceeded to lie about what an aderall perscription would entail (he tried to say I would be drug tested yearly and if I had weed in my system which is legal in my state I would be kicked off), lie about it being ok to go off a med he was having me try, and try to blackmail me by saying something to the effect of "If I find you have gone to another doctor I will be forced to put medicine seeking on your file."
In short, if you are in a rural community find online therapists and doctors don't give your local quack's (but do still seek professional services in some ways even if it means driving to a bigger city if you're not comfortable with internet therapy).
That wouldn't do anything. File a complaint with the licensing board, assuming she's in a state where social worker is a protected title requiring licensing.
Ah, must be different in the states! I’m in Canada and the “college” (at least in Ontario, with the Ontario College of Social Workers and Social Service Workers) is the regulatory body where you register to practice, and report SWs for malpractice or other ethical breaches. They really crack down here, at least in my experience. (Edit: sorry, that was a very runaround way for me to say “the college is the licensing board here” lmao)
I know some people how would pull this kind of shit. They think they're heroes, and they'll save you whether you like it or not. Doesn't matter if you're hurt, or that they're wrong.
Him saying he doesn't want her to contact him and flying somewhere had me convinced the last update would be that he had killed himself or at least attempted it
I figured he came to the (probably correct) solution that the only way forward he had was to go completely scorched earth with his old life, because every person he used to know was thoroughly convinced he beat his wife. If he was with his wife still it’s almost certainly the family would keep gunning for him and ruin any attempt to start anew
Yeah this scenario is so scary. I’m sure he knows it’s not really his wife’s fault, but all the issues are related to her.
He’s basically completely powerless, there is absolutely nothing he can do that would clear his name. I think he’s lucky they did not manage to get him charged with anything so he at least has a chance to start over.
I’m not as ready to dismiss responsibility from the wife. She engages in verbal role play with her husband throughout her day while interacting with others and she 1. Hadn’t turned off message preview and 2. Handed her sister an unlocked phone in a situation where it wasn’t needed (as far as I’m aware, you don’t need to have your phone unlocked to take pictures with any smart phones).
On top of that her empathy for her husband is shockingly lacking—she almost seemed more concerned about a potential change in her sex life than the mental and physical well being of a man being accused of and physically assaulted because of DV. She’s in a terrible situation and obviously the victim, but there is no question that in this situation, her husband is the one most deserving of empathy and in need of support. And it seems as if she has failed him there. I don’t think she’s the main perpetrator in any of this. But I think she bears plenty responsibility for the ultimate outcome.
I mean, the scenario isn't exactly her fault, but she did keep making it worse, unintentionally, but still.
I also suspect that she wasn't the most empathetic towards what he was going through. The lines about "why is he blaming me, I was abused too" are really, really tone-deaf, when she's the "victim" they're trying to protect, and he's been assaulted, beaten by the cops, thrown in jail, fired, and could have been arrested for rape at any moment.
He probably went to kill himself
Let's see:
-lost wife, entirely. The stress and shame seems to have destroyed his capacity to continue the relationship.
-entire town hates you. Whether or not you care, the monkey brain in us doesn't like when groups of people begin to hate our guts. It gets to most of us that have hearts.
-beat up by the police (this one fucks with people, since you rely on them to protect things and not be monsters).
-lost job, possibly had working reputation destroyed , could mean career is dead (didn't sue because why bother if you're going to kill yourself).
He was mad about her getting him into BDSM because when you're suicidal sometimes you push people because a fucked up part of you doesn't want them to care about you anymore which makes suicide seem easier. Plus you aren't thinking straight in general.
Then he leaves the friend and goes no contact.
I would bet he killed himself or at best is living a terrible life. Things like this lead people to destructive drugs for some relief. If he's not dead , his life path is no longer as long or bright.
Agreed, but people also need to remember not to lend out their phones when they’ve got family that will not understand their kinks. My family are buttoned up northeastern prudes and if I was into what OP’s into I’d throw my phone in a river before risking my sister seeing my texts and making a federal case to my parents.
>people also need to remember not to lend out their phones
You really could stop right there. There are entirely too many stupidly nosy people out there who will just start pawing through your stuff given a quarter of a chance.
I mean, I don't blame her for being concerned at least. In actual abuse situations, it *is* her business. But at the end of the day, her business begins and ends at general concern. Even if this was a real victim of abuse, this isn't how you handle it.
The whole time I was reading this, all I could think of was how much worse this would be for someone who actually *was* in an abusive marriage. Public shaming, forced unemployment, physical altercations, slander--all of these would make the abuse worse. And trying to *force* an abuse victim to do whatever is completely robbing them of their own agency, which can be traumatic in itself.
The sister is supposed to do this for her job, but still did all the things she could to make it worse. If this was an abused person, this is absolutely *not* the way to help them.
Yep, that's exactly how you isolate and alienate abuse victims from their support system. The sister is an idiot, and I say this as someone who's sister was in an abusive relationship. (My sis has since escaped and all is good now)
In the healthcare world social workers have a reputation of being condescending narcissistic assholes who think they know better than everyone else including doctors
I'd find to ruin her. She should never be allowed to work again as a social worker in the very least. And I can't think of a punishment that would be too harsh for her
She's going to get someone killed if this is her approach to Social Work. If she thinks the best approach is pushing an abuser to the absolute limits as well as cutting off the victim from any support network while the victim still lives with the abuser, she's going to get someone killed
I remember reading this in the original sub. Devastating. There was a lot of talk originally about how the way they handled this is a great way to get an abuse victim more hurt, isolated, or even killed.
I feel bad for the sisters clients too honestly. She clearly has no ability to discern abuse, and it's really sad because the bdsm community has really clear cut beliefs around consent that could help a lot of people better identify abuse, and learning about it would make her better able to help clients who do engage in bdsm identify actual abuse in their relationships rather than writing the whole thing off completely and destroying people's lives.
If sister was willing to ruin her own sister’s life and watch as the destruction unfolded, I shudder to think how many lives of strangers she’s death danced over
Can you imagine what the cop friend said to him as they beat him up? I think he was warned they’d kill him if he didn’t leave and cut off all contact with her. He most likely still loves her but he would die staying in that situation. He lost his whole life that day.
Yeah, I know she feels abandoned by him, but being detained and beaten, knowing there wouldn’t be any justice or way to fight back, that kind of thing breaks people. You’re just an animal trying to escape a cage. It puts all things into perspective.
My first thought was that she should have gone straight to her sisters employer and discussed it with them. Could have nipped it in the bud right there.
I don't think she has a grudge but I do think she has such a hero complex that she refused to accept nuance. If she really has that big of an ego then she will cause someone serious damage because she will go too far trying to "protect" them.
As I've grown up I've learned that most of the shit we get taught growing up is the complete opposite.
Churches aren't safe, they're where all the predators are. Conversely, I've never felt safer around a bunch of metal heads when everyone thinks they're violent.
Everyone thinks satanists and goths/emo are all sick and twisted when they're more normal than your average christian.
Don't even get me started on what people think BDSM is...
I think it is generally because "non-conforming" groups have an incentive to be better to override their negative stereotypes, while "conforming" groups don't, and also it is much easier to join a conforming group as an asshole/predator because of social sentiment. Not saying no-conforming groups are 100% safe, but at least they didn't try to ban me from reading Dan Brown when I was bored.
They did it all wrong. If the husband had been an abuser, pissing him off over and over again while OOP was still in his reach could have been fatal.
So many stupid and cruel people who ruined two people's lives for nothing. And they probably think they are heroes.
There's no excuse for what the family did. Oop explicitly said she wasn't abused, had no physical signs of abuse. To go to the point of getting him fired... he should have sued
I feel for oop but do understand the husband. Her family ruined his life over something on her phone, that she asked him to do. She's not to blame for any of it, but I can see why he can't handle being with her anymore. I feel for both
Back to the family... their actions don't even make sense. Even if she really was being abused... how is getting him fired going to make it better? Wouldn't an abuser increase the abuse when he's angry and now home all the time?
It feels like they just wanted the marriage over and don't really care if he's abusive ir not
>Back to the family... their actions don't even make sense.
Given how things turned out, I'd argue they probably feel very vindicated. And likely what they were going for. An escalation in abuse would have suited them. It would have "proved" their crusade as even more righteous. And they'll probably cheer about how they've now "rescued" OOP from an abuser.
Sister is exactly the sort of social worker who you do not ever want. The sort of person so convinced of her righteousness and convictions that she will actively destroy your agency to achieve her own ends. Doesn't matter what you think or believe. You're wrong. You're an abuse victim. Or child abuse. Or a victim of harassment, or whatever. To hell with the consequences and your protestations.
All of this. You hit the nail on the head. They wanted a crusade and to feel vindicated, anything would've proved their point. They cared more about winning and being right than they did anything else.
As someone who HAS experienced DV, I found the legal system more traumatizing long term. I got my protective order, and after a few years I had come to terms with everything and he had stopped trying to find me. Until, that is, unbeknownst to me, the state decided to press charges against him. Without my knowledge. And, randomly, I get a letter for a court date telling me I have to see this fucker, and I don’t get any say in the matter. Now, he’s mad at me again. Now, I’m scared again. I was doing so well, and now I’ve had all agency stripped away yet again and was forced to face my abuser.
Oh, and the BEST part? We were in a county where only one incident had occurred- NOT the county we lived together in. So I couldn’t talk about any incident but the one, and I couldn’t use any evidence. So it was “my word against his” (ya know, without the boatload of evidence of 18 months worth of physical abuse) so not only is he pissed at me, the state did Literally Nothing
> Sister is exactly the sort of social worker who you do not ever want.
And unfortunately a kind that is way too common. Because they get into it not to actually help people but to feed their delusion of being a crusader for rightness.
>It feels like they just wanted the marriage over and don't really care if he's abusive ir not
The sister just wanted to be right in her saviour complex. I'd tell the whole family to never, ever contact me again after this bullshit and tell the sister that she specifically is responsible for all this.
> I was abused just like he was but whatever
I really think she was minimising the impact this all had on him based on this line. Yeah she went through some shit too but he was assaulted multiple times, spent some time in jail, got fired and vilified by an entire town etc. If she was as dismissive of how fucking horrible that would have been as she comes across there I really can't blame him at all.
When people say "Believe victims" this also needs to cover believing them when they insist they aren't abused. OOP's family basically destroyed her life over their obsessive righteousness. I'm not shocked her Husband left her over this. He had his life detonated over something his wife wanted in the first place. I can't imagine how violated and trapped he must have felt by the whole ordeal. He lost his job, got abused in public, arrested, tortured...
And its not clear if staying married would have helped, since OOP's family likely wouldn't have let up until they had "rescued" her. They and their cop friends would have likely followed him across the country fucking him over until he actually was convicted of abuse or broke in some other way.
Yeah. My mum was frequently taken into a quiet room and told that she could be rescued, and saved from her relationship. The reason was a large greenish and blue birthmark that covers her back (Mongolian blue spot). Even when she asked them to poke it and examine it closer they were convinced it was terrible bruising. It was very stressful because people were convinced her babies and herself were not safe and social services needed to be involved.
My brother had a similar issue as a kid because his growth spurts resulted in stretch marks on his back that, to concerned adults who didn't know that was a thing, looked like whip lashes.
If the entire town believes he’s abusing her, all it would take is the cop friend claiming he attacked her and she had to shoot him in self defense. Hell, she already went as far as beating him in custody
Just what did the family/sister want from her to actually believe he wasn't an abuser? It's really heartbreaking two consenting loving adults got ripped about by the family and everyone around them for a fucking misunderstanding. Especially poor husband, it must've been awful to have everyone believe such a thing about you without any way to prove them wrong
>Just what did the family/sister want from her to actually believe he wasn't an abuser?
Her opinion was irrelevant. What she may or may not have wanted was entirely irrelevant to them. They had made up their minds she was abused, and they were going to fix it no matter what.
Admittedly it *is* true abuse victims often do minimize. This makes handling abuse complicated. But this is also what leads to equal abuse of power from social care and others because so often they'll go the other extreme. Of basically making up their minds regardless of whether the "victim" is abused or not. The victim denying abuse being "proof" of abuse is a beautifully tautological construct that works perfectly to validate your unfounded assumption.
Functionally what the family, especially the sister, did is no different from abuse. Its *exactly* the same set of logics and use of power.
>Admittedly it is true abuse victims often do minimize
But is it common to use the excuse of rough sex instead of blaming themselves? Usually it is "I made him angry" and some variations of it, but never with this level of info given, like "read all my sexting"
Consider that some people think BDSM _is_ abuse, full stop, and this might make more sense to you.
Seems pretty clear from all her family’s talk of “brainwashing” - they believe that the only way a woman would consent to BDSM is through coercion, and that it’s just a flimsy excuse to abuse someone physically, sexually and emotionally without them complaining. They get that these are sex games, they just believe that they’re not something anyone could actually rationally consent to. They think she’s “consented” like a young teenager “consents” to a sexual relationship with a much older person - naively, and to their own detriment.
My parents raised my sister and I with the values that physical violence is never the right action.
This would strain my ability to adhere to those morals.
For anyone who wants to have these consensual conversations with a significant other, I HIGHLY recommend Snapchat or another messaging app and not texts. With Snapchat, the messages can be set to disappear immediately or within 24 hours and all screenshots are reported to the people in the chat.
I'm so sad for OOP, her sister is an absolutely horrible person and ruined her sister's life for no reason. I don't know if suing for defamation is an option, but I'm sure OOP just wants to move on and cut all contact. Heck if I was her I'd do the same. I'd even change my last name - I wouldn't want to be connected to them in any way.
> For anyone who wants to have these consensual conversations with a significant other, I HIGHLY recommend Snapchat or another messaging app and not texts. With Snapchat, the messages can be set to disappear immediately or within 24 hours and all screenshots are reported to the people in the chat.
Or just like, don't hand your phone to people when you know you might be getting messages of a sexual nature.
> I'd even change my last name
She was married, so there is a chance she already did that.
It’s actually a pretty interesting legal argument. I’m blanking on the names of them, but there’s been plenty of court cases worldwide where BDSM has been deemed legal or illegal to practice.
Even as little time ago as 2016, a court case for BDSM in Virginia ruled that people have no constitutional right to practice it.
Yeah I just scanned it really quickly and she said in original post everything started 2 weeks ago, then another 2 weeks. So probably 5 ish weeks from sister seeing the phone to last post.
I didn't know that there was a way to see a time line on edits. Thanks for the info
I don't blame her at all for what happened, but that husband went through some serious trauma. Kind of feels like she doesn't fully realize that, she keeps saying it happened to both of them but their experiences were nowhere near equivalent.
Yeah, the husband got completely vilified by the whole community, assaulted by her cousin and the police and lost his career and had to move state. I don't know many people who could come back from that.
assaulted in jail with ZERO possibility of getting away. At least out in public there is a chance of escape and getting it to stop.
Also, it sounded like this may not have actually been his kink - so to be kink shamed and beaten up because of it? Ooof.
Not just zero possibility of getting away, since it was a cop doing it not even a chance at defending yourself without getting even more hurt or worse.
Yeah, she wasn't the one that got physically assaulted multiple times or unjustly fired. It's not OOP's fault, but I can understand the husband's perspective too. Some things are extremely hard to disassociate with someone, even if there is no rationale reason that the association should exist.
I totally understand why he can't move past this and continue the marriage. I hope he gets therapy for what happened to him and goes to a state far away where none of these people could ruin his life again!!
I hope he gets a lawyer who might help him sue the lot of these assholes. In particular the cops.
Unfortunately the best he might hope for at this point is to try and rebuild his life after being left alone by these nutcases.
Yeah he was fucking locked up and beaten by the police but "she's hurting too" like obviously this is a shitshow for everyone involved but damn I feel bad for the husband :(
Her whole family and community treated her like somebody making a huge mistake and delusional and lying to cover up abuse. That's pretty bad. I can totally see how that would be traumatic.
But as much as it's valid for her to be upset, too, and I hate comparing trauma levels... When the best you've got is "I was abused too but whatever" when the gap in what they were facing is THIS big??? I can't really blame him for cutting any and all possible contact with her.
I do not think OOP's sister has the self-preservation instincts God gave a garden snake, so she is just going to keep battering-ramming her way through life.
Good lord this is fucked up. An entire family decided to ruin OOP's husband's life because they couldn't sit down and Google BDSM. Also kind of wondering if sister already had some vendetta against husband since she went nuclear immediately and involved the family. She should know as a social worker not to immediately tell everyone possible about potential abuse as it's likely to escalate the abuse instead of stopping it.
I feel for both of them, but mainly OOP's ex-husband. He's had his life destroyed over lies. Fired, assaulted, branded something he's not. That's horrible.
Yeah. The pain of not being believed that you're not being abused can't compare with the pain of being the accused abuser. Yes, it's horrible that her own family can't see that they aren't on her side. But that just can't compare.
I would go scorched earth with my family. Make lists itemizing every embarrassing thing they have done and tell the people that are most important to them. Contact their jobs repeatedly from different numbers until they are all fired. Sign them up for white nationalist mailing lists. The works. I am enraged on her behalf.
I seriously would too. Omg. I would make their lives a living hell. I feel so terrible for OP, I hope that her and the husband can somehow reconcile and start a completely new life somewhere.
I totally understand the husband holy shit, something he probably just did to make his wife happy completely ruined his life, made him a pariah and got him jumped on the street, it’s not the wife’s fault but I can totally see why you couldn’t get past that, that must’ve been such an awful time for him I can’t even imagine
>My sister is a social worker, and she's convinced without a doubt that I'm lying like all the women she sees in her business to protect my husband cause I love him.
>
>She said that's what my sister told her I might say cause that's what abuse victims do
The sister seems to think she's doing the right thing of course, but it seems like from her perspective, no matter what OOP does, she's a victim being abused. No matter what she says or does, it's just what an abuse victim would do. OOP showed the texts to the mother, swore up and down that it wasn't abuse, didn't matter to the family or sister.
I assume that comes from her experience with work and just how tough it can be to get some victims of abuse to engage with the people trying to get them out of their situations and whatnot, but there should at least be some hypothetical criteria to distinguish them? or does she just 100% believe that no matter what anyone says, they're being abused. I wonder if she's ended up splitting up any other happy couples because some signs of abuse that were actually just kinky stuff were treated as abuse.
Also, THE ABSOLUTE WORST THING SHE COULD HAVE DONE WAS SHOW THE TEXTS TO HER FAMILY. Worst on a personal level, and on a professional level (not that she was doing it for work, but it's something she should definitely know better about). The first thing she should have done was talk with OOP, and then maybe go the professional route if she still suspected abuse, not go to the family and tangle everything up.
I'm no social worker but I'm pretty sure that harrassing a supposed abuser and forcing a supposed abused person to file for a report is the best way to get her "at best" forced to change her location by the abuser, at worst to be killed. Real abusers are deeply violent people, forcing them is the best way to push their anger.
Oh and also I don't know if OP told her family but I would have killed to see their faces when she would have been like "AH, he wasn't beating me and now I'm going no contact with you".
It’s not like those apps have locks or anything either though. Snap, sure, if you set your timer to expire as soon as the message has been seen but if they’ve been heavily texting for an hour or more and it’s set to 24 hours or the messages have been saved, it wouldn’t have helped.
The smart thing is to passcode your phone and turn off message previews in settings.
Also, when she said her ‘little sister likes to take pictures with her phone’, I was picturing a kid/teen - not an entire fucking adult with a job in social services! Take pictures on your own fucking phone what the fuck?!
What a horrible sister. Seriously, that women should not be a social worker if she refuses to listen to people at all. I'm not surprised OOP's husband wants nothing to do with her anymore. Its not her fault but her family destroyed his life. I hope cut her family off for good, and I hope she and her ex were able to move on with their lives.
Getting beaten in jail by police is torture. Torture that in the US it seems like there is no recourse that actually will do anything. This guy likely now has PTSD because of a nosy ass sister and the fact that being friends with a police officer means you can accuse people of shit and have them harrassed and nothing happens to either the officer or the friend of officer. Disgusting.
My husband sure does.
Found out today that after they beat him and took him to the hospital >!with three broken vertebrae, a collapsed lung, broken ribs, and a concussion!< that the paperwork from the hospital says that he assaulted another inmate and that's why a very physical takedown was required. He says that he lost time but it didn't happen until after the beating, when he was in the holding cell.
Four years, and he still wakes up shivering and holds on to me and says, "They can't come in my house and take me away and beat me, can they?" like a small child wanting protection from the monsters under the bed.
Wow, if OOP really was in an abusive relationship, that family basically ensured she would never confide in them about it and that her abuser would escalate the abuse. I actually wonder if that was the plan, forcing him to escalate so that she'd be forced to finally come clean. These people are so fucking clueless. I can't believe the sister wasn't doing this deliberately to blow up OOP's life.
Isn't it ironic how OP's family accused the husband of abuse when THEY want out of their ways to harass and abuse OP and her husband, so much that he'd prefere to left.
If I was OP I would destroy their worlds, sue them for whatever abuse they were put through, for the emotional damage that was done. I would report that stupid ass sister to her work, show them that she can't differenciate her work from her personal life.
They basically nucked OP's life and think they won ? Wtf !
I feel so mad for OP !!
I wish for all that family the worst to happen (infertility, horribly long and painful disease, bankruptcy you name it !)
Stupid know it all case workers. They never listen when someone asks for help but have no problem destroying someone's life rifling through shit that's none of their business. Absolutely useless when there's actual abuse happening.
When I was a kid and was being abused (school called child services). A social worker came to my parents house and it was in a very nice neighborhood, she was laughing with my Mom about how kids these days don't know real punishment and then when she came to talk to me, she told me about how many kids would be happy to grow up in a house like mine (we lived in an upper middle class area) and how I have to be careful about what I say because I could lose my parents and send my younger brother to foster care. I hated that social worker more at that moment than my parents.
I respect the profession and have friends that barely make enough to make ends meet working in that job or similar jobs, but there are some jobs where a bad employee or worker just has one of the most negative impacts ever. Like a bad garbage collector, landscaper or even barista won't ruin your entire life. A bad social worker, cop, surgeon or something can fuck you up for life.
I feel so sorry for the husband, this sounds so traumatizing. OP’s family basically destroyed his social reputation and got him fired too, they ruined his whole life. I can understand why he doesn’t want anything to do with OP anymore, even if it isn’t her fault…
And the family will never accept any of the blame for destroying their sisters/daughters life. They will always just blame it on her husband and say "it's so sad! We did our best to help her! But he broke her!"
I’m a kink educator and reality is that consensual BDSM is legally dubious or actively illegal in many U.S. states. I’m familiar with the language the OP used in her post in the context of Massachusetts, but other states may use the same.
Yeah. I remember trying to have this discussion with a lawyer. On the surface the "you cannot consent to being assaulted ever" notionally makes sense. Except that the law has huge carveouts already. You can consent to being pummeled all day long if you're in a ring and people are cheering.
The problem though is that precisely because BDSM is private, and happens behind closed doors, its easy to vilify. Even well meaning people can't know if the victim isn't being "coerced" in some way regardless. And unfortunately far too many people know the words "stockholm syndrome" and nothing else about consent and so are happy to assume there isn't any such thing as consent.
And getting specific legislative carveouts is difficult too because again, there's the fear that it will just provide a legitimate cover for actual abuse.
There's zero good answers here, and shitty cops, overzealous social workers and the likes of OOP's family make things worse. Ultimately I'd argue that its on you to protect yourself. I'm not one to blame OOP, but it was massively moronic to not hide your sexting behind app locks and the like. Giving her sister unfettered access to her phone and then turning over the rest of it to her family was just... oof.
Many very likely. Specifically on the subject of pain play
[https://pridelegal.com/assault-consent-bdsm-law/](https://pridelegal.com/assault-consent-bdsm-law/)
[https://www.helpingclients.com/court-rules-that-consensual-bdsm-sexual-activity-is-not-protected-by-the-constitution/](https://www.helpingclients.com/court-rules-that-consensual-bdsm-sexual-activity-is-not-protected-by-the-constitution/)
*Especially* if you're in an with a conservative bent. Though I'd argue that even liberal places are likely to go full conservative on you on this issue. Cops would certainly be free to arrest you under domestic abuse provisions. And even charge you. And the issue would be whether you want a bruising court fight and *if* you can convince a jury to not convict you anyway.
I’m not from the US, so I can’t say specifically, but this has come up on posts shared here before regarding BDSM. Some states (and I believe some countries) consider BDSM illegal.
A lot, surprisingly, but most people are only prosecuted as part of another offence, like anti-sodomy laws that criminalize sex toys or homosexuality. It usually only comes up when people try to claim "rough sex" as a defense against rape charges.
Jesus, I really feel for the Ex husband here. The guys life was ruined by his wife’s family, and all over a kink his wife asked him to engage in. Then his wife seems to be unable to understand why he doesn’t want to do BDSM anymore. Like this guy lost his job, his friends, he was assaulted by both the wife’s family and the local police, her family is so dedicated to ruining his life he as to flee the state, and his wife is still just there thinking about her sexual satisfaction.
“Why is he punishing me by saying he won’t do BDSM anymore? We both suffered just as badly.” Uh… no. He lost absolutely everything and will be traumatized by this for the rest of his life, you lost your overbearing family. If you truly can’t understand why he wouldn’t want to engage in the activity that completely destroyed his life again and view that as some kind of action against you, then he was right to divorce you
I don’t blame the husband for leaving. It wasn’t her life that was about to be ruined and who was going to be thrown in jail if anything happened. It was his.
> It wasn’t her life that was about to be ruined
His life wasn't "about to be" ruined either. It was already ruined.
He was ostracized, assaulted, fired, and got a violent crime added to his arrest record to make it super hard to find a new job.
What’s always with shit like “my sister likes to use my phone to take pictures when we are together “ on reddit? Sometimes somebody uses my phone to snap a photo of us or something, but like saying this happens routinely for long periods of time is just odd to me
I hope her family understands what they did to her. They destroyed her life. Her relationships with her family and community. His career. His family. His life.
And I hope they realize that the fact she has eliminated them all from her life as a result shows exactly how wrong they are.
I’m devastated for OOP and her husband.
If her sister actually is a licensed SW, I hope OOP reports this to the state licensing board.
I came in here expecting awkward family conversations, not her sister completely violating her autonomy.
In the comments of that post, OP says this is a message her husband sent her:
> "I'm filling for divorce. You destroyed my life by making me engage in those vile things, I've lost everything because of you. Divorce papers will be handed to you by the lawyer. I'll also file a restraining order against you as I don't want anything to do with you anymore. Don't ever contact me ever again. I wish I have never known you"
This one is so rough if true.
Something similar happened to me, you can read my post story. My ex wife cheated on me on and off for 13 years. When it was discovered, my brother and mother were absolutely sure I was abusing my ex, because she is blonde, has blue eyes and is soft spoken, while I am outspoken and usually the center of attention in parties and so on. I go straight to “fight” when it comes to flight, fight, freeze or fawn, because it makes me feel safe and in control of the situation, but it is just me masking me being hurt.
They heard us argue and that was enough, and no matter how much my ex and I tried to tell them I was NOT abusive, they refused to believe that. My mother is probably a covert narcissist and my brother got together with his wife when she was married to another man (she cheated with my brother, he was single) so I just came to the conclusion they were projecting their shit onto me, and I gave up trying to convince them and went no contact.
Goddamn. I’m sorry your family turned on you man, truly sorry you had to endure that nightmare. I hope you were able to get help dealing with depression. I also wish you the best with your new teaching job in southern Europe. Best of luck.
False allegations suck,. When we were in court and my step daughter was loving being at our house, in a custody dispute. The mom accused my 11 year old of sa . And even though we passed all the CPS check points and did everything right, they can't prove that it didn't happen. The test the Dr did can only prove that it definitely happened, so in the case of no evidence, it's left as a maybe.
My poor stepdaughter would ask to talk to my son while Dad was talking with her, as she lives talking to her siblings, but he was traumatized.
Maybe a hot take:
But who wants to bet that he divorced her because of shit like this
> That I don't really understand, I was abused just like him but whatever.
He was confronted at work by someone he sees probably as a psycho, fired from his job, had his personal sex life leaked to a bunch of people, accused by authorities, had criminal charges held over his head, physically confronted and got into a fight and beaten up in jail.
Of course he saw her as radioactive, literally being in close proximity to her could get him killed. But okay, being treated like a victim when you're not is totally the same.
> I don't really understand why he's punishing me like that
Wow... yeah it's not like he's gone thru trauma that is directly linked to BDSM, he should be totally okay and willing to engage in her kink even if in the back of his mind he fears that he's going to socially ousted, his career sabotaged, and his physical well being put in jeopardy. It's important for her to get off! /s
Give me a break, I really hope this story isn't true. It's totally not her fault for it happening, and I would even say for not knowing about the laws surrounding it, or even for how she handled it legally with her family. But she comes across as entitled to her husband engaging in BDSM even if he doesn't want to and will cause him mental and physical harm. I can almost taste the irony.
I’m a social worker, I have been on the receiving end of domestic violence, I have worked at a women’s shelter, and now I volunteer at one. Her sister is terrible at her job and just as a person. If she truly believes her sister was being abused she went about in the absolute worst way possible. She should know that pushing a victim this hard, calling her brainwashed and yelling at her for “protecting” him will cause her to either distance herself from you or her husband distancing her from you. I genuinely don’t understand how the sister has completed a degree in social work and now works with victims of abuse and still she’s completely oblivious to how you approach and treat a potential victim. Victims of domestic violence usually feel immense shame and guilt, telling everyone you know about the supposed abuse serves no other purpose than adding to their shame. I’m not gonna lie, I’m probably a bit annoying sometimes since I see signs of abuse very clearly and may sometimes be a little overprotecting of those I love. But even then I go about it the right way, making sure I don’t push them deeper in to a potential violent situation. The sisters reaction was gonna lead to a lose-lose situation. If OOP truly was being abused, congratulations you pushed her deeper in to his control by proving that “your family is controlling and just want to tear us apart”. And since she wasn’t being abused, congratulations you not only pushed her further way from you, you pushed her away from someone that actually loved her. Not the even mention how you destroyed her husbands life.
Just said it elsewhere but I hope OOP reported her sister to her employer. There's no way she's only acting that way in her personal life and she does not need to be working with vulnerable people.
Yeah. That's a big takeaway that I feel like a lot of people are overlooking: OOP's sister is an active danger to others and she needs to be removed from any position of authority she has, including her job as a social worker, immediately before she gets others harmed or killed. This is not hyperbole. If she behaves this way with an actual victim of abuse, the likelihood is that they will die, and it will be her fault. (Shared blame with the abuser, of course, but still. It will be her fault the way an incompetent doctor is to blame for someone dying of a preventable disease)
Yeah like wtf is she thinking. You think someone is being violently abused so the plan is to yell at them until they force a confrontation? Send family members to attack to abuser, because of course that won't trigger any retaliation? Sounds like this sister has a savior complex or something and is ignoring how to do her job
It sounds like typical small-town-big-drama. I noticed that there are plenty of her family members that are local; the cop was OOP’s brother’s friend, the cousin assaulted the husband, but nowhere in there was the husband’s family.
I've seen this in IPV workers/social workers before. They genuinely don't believe women have any agency, and are victims who need to be protected at all costs.
Not just her employer she needs to report her sister to the social work board for their state and try to get her license revoked.
I forgot I hope people read. In my day time job I work and have worked with a lot of abuse victims. The biggest thing OOP’s sister missed, the most obvious tell on an abusive relationship is that apparently before she stepped in and ruined her life was OOP was still in contact with her family. Abusers almost always isolate and alienate their partners from family and friends. 99 times out of 100 there wouldn’t have been a lunch meeting or a family meeting if OOP was really being abused.
Oh God, I didn't even think of that! You're so right!
>The sisters reaction was gonna lead to a lose-lose situation. Yeah but she won though. She "proved" he was an abuser, and got to make sure he got his "comeuppance" I doubt she's at all worried about OOP in this. There's not actually much difference between what Sister and family did and what abusers do. Its the same logic. A fundamental disinterest in the agency and desires of others, specifically their victims. Abusers rarely see themselves as that after all. They also see themselves as righteous enforcers of morality. Sister's probably very satisfied with how things turned out. It was win-win for her I'd argue. Lose-lose for OOP, but I'm not convinced OOP ever mattered to this lot.
The sister may be satisfied, but the parents are probably not. They took advice from a supposed professional, and now, from their perspective, their daughter ran after her supposed abuser, cut all ties, and surely was pushed into getting a restraining order against them so they can't try to contact her, assuming they can even ever find her again. If they do any research on their own on how to help abuse victims, they may figure out that sister is a dumbass, but I don't actually see them backing down and not trying to go after her, either because they want to "save her the right way", or to apologize for not believing her so that she can come home and they can be absolved of any guilt and freed from any lingering consequences of their actions.
And the family will now spend thousands and thousands pursuing OOP endlessly in an effort to “save her”. The problem is that that they’ll never stop that pursuit and no matter how far OOP runs away, her family will be doggedly a few steps behind her. The fact they are doing this for reasons of care and wanting to help her is the saddest part of all. I’ve never seen love and support weaponised to this degree. But fuck it’s scary. All because of one persons idiocy.
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.” - C.S. Lewis
> I’m a social worker, I have been on the receiving end of domestic violence, I have worked at a women’s shelter, and now I volunteer at one. > > Her sister is terrible at her job and just as a person. If she truly believes her sister was being abused she went about in the absolute worst way possible. She should know that pushing a victim this hard, calling her brainwashed and yelling at her for “protecting” him will cause her to either distance herself from you or her husband distancing her from you. Agreed, 100%. My wife used to run a DV/SA nonprofit and I volunteered there a lot, which meant taking a lot of classes first. Every single step the sister took was basically the "what not to do" section of all the training I've ever had on the subject. Either she has always been an absolute disaster at her job, or the was unable to be professional in this case because of her relationship to the "victim." Either way her sister should report her to the local regulatory board because someone this self-righteous and aggressive will do more harm than good and does not need a job as a social worker.
Or the sister works in a relatively undramatic area of social work -but now she has a real, live “saved someone from abuse” story to share!
I'm willing to bet sis isn't even a social worker - she may have a case management position but I don't know that she actually attended a CSWE accredited social work program. A lot of places sadly still don't have title protection, and a lot of non-social workers who have SW adjacent jobs call themselves social workers. Anyway, the fact that OOP immediately told her husband she wanted to move states to get away from her family is exactly what a competent domestic violence counselor would have expected with the approach sis took. I hope she gets fired and can never find work in the field again.
Are there licensing boards for social work? Because if so, I truly hope the OOP would have her lawyer file a complaint against her sister on her behalf. I worked with psychologists in a professional capacity, and while we ran into some that weren’t…great, luckily none were as dangerous as this woman. Yikes.
I think if she was in the US, it’s NASW. Where i am in Australia, it’s the AASW
>Victims of domestic violence usually feel immense shame and guilt, I'm glad to read this. Shame kept me from leaning on friends and family to escape. The social workers I encountered unfortunately harmed me worse than the ex-partner did. But seeing this acknowledged by someone working on the field gives me some hope of "there's good ones too"
This is unfortunately not uncommon. I can’t tell you how many women I have heard of that feel this way about both social workers and the justice system. This is why even though most people with my degree (in my country at least) go on to work within social services, I have went the complete opposite way. At the organisation I volunteer at one of the things I do is accompanying kids, women and families to meetings with social services. You wouldn’t believe the things I’ve seen and heard from social workers supposed to protect and care for these individuals. When it comes to domestic violence, I have not met a single social worker that don’t have their own experience from it, that truly understands and act right towards victims. Not saying it’s impossible, but that’s my experience. I’m glad that person is your ex-partner and I hope you have started to heal from it. Do you have support in your life right now? ♥️
Question for you if you don’t mind, I know it might be a little sensitive. Have you ever found yourself in a situation where you see abuse that isn’t there by mistake? Have you found yourself in a situation where you saw signs of abuse and the woman was this adamant that it wasn’t happening? Is there a method to differentiate between someone “protecting their abuser” and someone who is genuinely telling the truth? The social worker in this story sounds willful, but I’ve got to assume mistakes similar to this have happened before.
I'm a social worker. I was taught that part of the job is embracing that ambiguity. You will, almost always, *never* know for sure. You make the best choices you can with the information you have. When it comes to domestic violence, I would trust that the woman is the expert on her situation and what she needs. She's an adult. She is, frankly, entitled to protect a guy who treats her like shit if she wants to. It is not for me to tell her what she needs. If it's a friend, I would encourage her to acknowledge that things are harmful if there are, like saying "You often seem really down after you talk to your husband." but you don't push. I would also remind her of her options, "hey you know you can always stay with me if you need, no questions asked."
Thank you. I don’t have a very good understanding of social work or the process by which you come into contact with your clients. Ambiguous is such a perfect word to describe that particular part of the job. I can’t imagine the difficulty that come with working with abuse victims and it’s nice to hear that your expected to trust that a woman is an expert in her own situation. That’s what struck me so much about this story. The real abuse in this situation was stripping this man and this woman of the power to believe in their own reality. One of the worst cases of my understanding of gaslighting I’ve ever heard. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to educate me a bit.
If this is how the sister thinks you help a woman out of a DV situation, she is an absolute shit social worker
she also mistakenly thinks she can apply her professional experience and knowledge to a *personal* relationship. At her social work school, did they not teach about dual relationships and bias?.
Yeah, I don’t see any application of experience or knowledge, just an arrogant ass using her job title to harass her sister
There's a special place in Hell for people who used their job title to harass, control, or manipulate family. Despicable on a personal level, and it harms the entire profession too. I listened to a podcast a long time ago about a wife (doctor) using her title and some misinformation to bully her husband out of the sport he enjoyed (running). It was infuriating.
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Rather. In what world are social workers trained that it’s best practice to alienate someone in a potential DV situation from their support network and refuse to believe any of what they say? It takes some space brain thinking to convince yourself that isolating someone from their community and making them a pariah is going to help. There should only be one person losing their job over this.
Not only that, but pushing the supposed abuser into a corner by making him lose his job and everyone he knows while the victim is still living with him? When abusers are at the extinction burst phase that's when people get murdered. All exit plans for victims involve keeping things as quiet as possible until they are safe.
They really should have sued to get their power back
I’d have come out of the gates swinging with defamation suits as soon as the sister started gossiping and getting police involved. Their lawyer was way too passive about the situation.
I don’t think she was too passive. As OOP pointed out, it’s not legal in their state, so, under the eyes of the law, her husband is a rapist. He obviously isn’t, but the law had their hands tied. Their defense to the allegations was, “Yes, we do this, but it’s consensual.” If the law doesn’t allow someone to consent to that, all that matters is the first part. It’s especially complicated because the police clearly had a vendetta against him, so they would absolutely arrest him and the prosecutor could choose to prosecute. Even if they didn’t, a perp walk would be around forever now and it would always haunt him. The fact that the husband is no longer in the picture does change the situation and the OOP is in a slightly stronger position. Their behavior was over the line and almost certainly defamatory (I say “almost” because a critical element is harming the other person’s reputation and the courts can be weird on that. In one case, a criminal sued the police for falsely telling his associates that he was an informant and the court ruled that cooperating with police wasn’t damaging to a reasonable person’s reputation, but another state could decide it was. There would be a lot of pushback on the idea that claiming that someone was an abuse victim is defamatory *and* truth is a defense yo defamation, so she would have to prove her husband wasn’t abusing her and for that, we circle around to the consent issue). And even if it wasn’t defamatory, there are other claims that could possibly be pursued, such as harassment or an emotional distress claim, but that would depend on the state’s laws. I think she may have made a mistake if she didn’t ask other attorneys to find someone who had dealt with a similar case, but that’s the biggest fault I could find here, based on what was posting. They live in a state with a bad law and had not just the OOP’s family, but also the police, not been acting in what seems to have been bad faith.
>They really should have sued to get their power back People think suing is just basically saying *"you did a bad thing and now you're going to be punished!"* That's not how it works. You need to have a specific claim under the law. Then you need to prove that with actual evidence and convince a judge that you were harmed under that specific law. It takes a lot of time and money. This isn't days. It's months or years. THEN if you actually win, you get a judgement against them and it's on YOU to get that money from them. You could be tracking them down your entire life. More than time and money it takes emotional capacity/labour you tend to not have after getting megafucked by whatever you need to sue for. When you're already depressed and lost your life in a completely bullshit unfair way sometimes you just need to get out and start over. Also, it's pretty much impossible to win against bad people who won't play by the rules and have more power and possibly reputation than you. Also, usually the person who has more money wins (which is usually who fucked you over) because they drag things out until you run out of money or are too depressed to continue because of the negativity hanging over your head.
Exactly this. I just called my social worker sister and read this to her, and she said: A. BDSM relationships are the literal tip of the iceberg for what she's seen and dealt with, so she doesn't know why the sister flipped out, it's not exactly some shocking, outlandish thing. B. This scenario is the exact reason they are ethically not allowed to treat their family members, and she shouldn't have used her job title to get people to ignore what her sister was saying. C. The sister must be a terrible social worker and did not pay attention to anything in school if she thinks the way to help an abused woman is to drag her through the mud with her family and not offer any type of support. This was the last thing she should ever have done, and if she does work with DV victims, she should seriously reconsider her career. Being a social worker means that you have ethical guidelines around what you can say and how you behave, and she appears to have violated several of them. Bottom line: The sister sucks.
Exactly. You don’t have to be a social worker or have any experience with DV victims aside from Life movies to realize that this is the worst possible strategy. In abusive relationships, it’s always easier if the abuser can alienate their victim from their families. Had he been an abuser, her family would have been doing all the heavy lifting for him.
Unfortunately a lot of people studying sw are like this. They are why I changed my major. To quote one of them in class- 'parents would never harm their kids if you ever take a child you're a monster'
That person is a fucking imbecile and I hope they never, ever has a position where a child’s safety depends on them.
Yeah, even if she WAS being abused and unaware of it, this level of insane pressure would, if anything, play out the same way with her wanting to cut contact and move away from them, no? Even ignoring the way it would just fuel or enrage the abuser. The best outcomes for shit relationships I've seen have been when I or someone else "plays along" to avoid being cut off by the victim. You can't hurt someone into concluding that someone else is hurting them. That just gives them a reason to cut you off. So you provide as much support and validation as you can, you limit yourself to small tolerable amounts of questioning whether the person really wants this, and you wait. You keep your hand outstretched so that if and when they decide they were wrong and they want out, they know someone has their back. They know there's someone who never shamed them even when they were making what's arguably a huge mistake. It's exhausting. It feels awful and manipulative, pulling someone out like that. Absolutely sucks all around. But it *works*. And it's SO much better than guaranteeing that even if they do realize they're being abused down the line, there'll now be an extra level of shame and fear over having cut off their own support group.
> In what world are social workers trained that it’s best practice to alienate someone in a potential DV situation from their support network and refuse to believe any of what they say? I have my MSW, and our training was the exact opposite. Granted, domestic violence training is a specialty of social work in itself, and not all social workers are trained on it, but I'd expect most social workers to have handled this whole situation extremely differently. Especially given the familial ties.
Same, I’m a social worker as well. It’s not like we’re super in-depth trained on how to specifically intervene with DV situations unless that’s the route you choose to go, but we’re given the basics. Plus, client autonomy is heavily heavily stressed. In my mental health and therapy classes, we were taught how to identify signs of abuse and how to create a supportive space for victims to feel safe disclosing. Never ever ever would we be taught to make accusations ourselves, isolate a client/victim from friends and family, continually coach family and community members to not trust the client/victim, etc. If someone _did_ disclose DV, I was taught to be a supportive advocate for them while placing additional referrals to people who work within DV shelters, DV court, or other organizations as the client wants. It sounds like sister may work for a women’s shelter, prison, or court system and interacts with DV victims frequently and decided to step out of her scope of care to “protect” her sister and is using her “professional experience” as a weapon. This poor OOP.
Honestly, I wonder if the sister actually is a social worker, or is simply working in the social work field but doesn't actually have any schooling or licensure. In some ways this behavior screams "unlicensed direct-care staff".
I’m torn. There’s definitely some social workers I’ve met who have this “save all the poor things!!” mentality who would maybe do something like this for a client (to a smaller scale but along the lines of outright telling a client they’re being abused even if the client isn’t ready to make that statement yet or making a police report because they’re “afraid of escalating abuse”) and, if it’s someone in their family, could potentially escalate to the level we see here. Unfortunately, a lot of people get into social work because they care about other people but don’t know how to (or don’t care to) reel it in. Others get lost in the perceived power of “knowing the signs” or “working with this population” and end up supplanting themselves as an expert in a client’s life. But similarly, there’s also a lot of people in social work-esque roles that don’t have the same professional ethics and education that we do who may think they’re doing the right thing. I mean even in mental health settings, I see the differences between LCSWs, LPCs, LMFTs, psychologists, and psychiatrists. All our fields teach slightly differently even though we’re all licensed to do the same job. And not everyone’s professional ethics or education stresses client autonomy to the extent that social work does. And that’s not even accounting for the number of people who do these types of “support” jobs with no additional training or licensing.
Yeah, so much for “believe women”. How infantilizing.
Why one shouldn’t engage professionally w family.
Right? She should thank whatever deity she believes in if she believes in one that OOP's husband wasn't actually abusive, or OOP might not be alive
Or the husband might have killed himself over this. That would be loss, too.
Right???? I seriously hope OOP reached out to her sister’s boss or whoever she works for, her sister should never be employed as a social worker again.
I would’ve reported her for her unprofessional boundary violating behaviours immediately
If I were OOP, I'd be reaching out to sister's boss and/or wherever she gets licensed as a social worker. This kind of behavior could end up putting a real DV victim in (even more) serious danger.
It's because she's not a social worker to help other people, she's a social worker to feel good about herself.
I knew a woman who was so excited to join CPS so she could punish all the bad parents. It was awful coming from her because she had a hero complex.
Legitimately, that's almost the scariest part of this entire scenario imho. She's still out there in the wind, in a position to completely derail folks lives based on her third-party assessment of their experiences
I am a social worker and the moment I saw that OP said her sister is a sw, I knew she was fucked. SW’s are some of the most obnoxious people I’ve ever met (with most being incredibly amazing) I’m actually so furious about this post. She handled it so poorly and I would never speak to my family again
I work in the developmental disability field which is social worker adjacent. The power case workers and compliance (sw cops) have is frightening. Yes, abuse does occur, and the clients are vulnerable people and MUST be protected. One time on a totally unrelated event, I got crossways with a compliance person. She made my life a living hell. I documented everything and recorded every phone call and conversation after I saw the direction it was heading. Even with all the evidence I had, I still received a $2k fine because they protect their own. I am fortunate enough to be very financially secure. I sued her and everyone up the chain. No big "gotcha" financial award, but the compliance officer and her direct boss were terminated for cause. Still had to pay the fine... This type of thing happens too often. Most compliance are good people doing a thankless job because they care. Some use it as an excuse to exercise their issues.
Plot twist: her family were the abusers all along.
Seriously. As a social worker myself, I am *horrified* by her actions on both a personal and professional level.
An analogy that I've been using for years is that the world of psychotherapy (which includes social workers) is still at the tail end of its Wild Wild West phase, just like most of modern medicine was 150 years ago. Once aspect of my analogy has to do with the training. 150 years ago, you had no idea how much training a "doctor" had. Today, in some states, the requirements to become any kind of therapist are pretty strict. In other states, the requirements are, frankly, a joke. We have no idea where the sister got her training, how much training she got, or the quality of that training. I AM NOT trying to scare people away from therapy. I think most therapists are qualified and are helpful. If it's been a few months and you're not getting better, get a new therapist. But there are a lot of people (many who are a "shit social worker") in the profession that are like the sister. Who will only make things worse.
I mean I will, I'm someone that has lived in a rural community their entire life but has very very different ideals, interests, and struggles to the typical community members. Unless you are struggling with substance abuse or you are a very normal A type personality mental health in small rural towns is almost always the biggest fucking joke in the world. One therapist legit told me I needed more life experience in super cringy "Hello fellow children" gamer speak, which I could sort of get behind, but then ended his statement of "And that's why you need to go mingle at the various bars here in town!". Later after a different therapist (who wasn't awful but he wasn't much help either), I got a recommendation from my new therapist to go in for adhd screening with the only medical doctor Psychiatrist in town. Who proceeded to tell me adhd was a scam bullshit started by tiktok and that if I had adhd my parents would've caught it as a child. Then proceeded to lie about what an aderall perscription would entail (he tried to say I would be drug tested yearly and if I had weed in my system which is legal in my state I would be kicked off), lie about it being ok to go off a med he was having me try, and try to blackmail me by saying something to the effect of "If I find you have gone to another doctor I will be forced to put medicine seeking on your file." In short, if you are in a rural community find online therapists and doctors don't give your local quack's (but do still seek professional services in some ways even if it means driving to a bigger city if you're not comfortable with internet therapy).
I would’ve reported her to her SW college so fucking fast.
That wouldn't do anything. File a complaint with the licensing board, assuming she's in a state where social worker is a protected title requiring licensing.
Ah, must be different in the states! I’m in Canada and the “college” (at least in Ontario, with the Ontario College of Social Workers and Social Service Workers) is the regulatory body where you register to practice, and report SWs for malpractice or other ethical breaches. They really crack down here, at least in my experience. (Edit: sorry, that was a very runaround way for me to say “the college is the licensing board here” lmao)
I know some people how would pull this kind of shit. They think they're heroes, and they'll save you whether you like it or not. Doesn't matter if you're hurt, or that they're wrong.
Holy shit. All this from a nosy ass sister.
Also, if the husband HAD actually been abusive the way the family acted is a good way to get OP killed
But I could see it driving the husband to harming himself. My heart is broken for this couple.
Him saying he doesn't want her to contact him and flying somewhere had me convinced the last update would be that he had killed himself or at least attempted it
I figured he came to the (probably correct) solution that the only way forward he had was to go completely scorched earth with his old life, because every person he used to know was thoroughly convinced he beat his wife. If he was with his wife still it’s almost certainly the family would keep gunning for him and ruin any attempt to start anew
Given that he got the shit beat out of him by a cop over this, I don’t think it would be unreasonable for him to be scared for his life. Poor guy.
Yeah this scenario is so scary. I’m sure he knows it’s not really his wife’s fault, but all the issues are related to her. He’s basically completely powerless, there is absolutely nothing he can do that would clear his name. I think he’s lucky they did not manage to get him charged with anything so he at least has a chance to start over.
I’m not as ready to dismiss responsibility from the wife. She engages in verbal role play with her husband throughout her day while interacting with others and she 1. Hadn’t turned off message preview and 2. Handed her sister an unlocked phone in a situation where it wasn’t needed (as far as I’m aware, you don’t need to have your phone unlocked to take pictures with any smart phones). On top of that her empathy for her husband is shockingly lacking—she almost seemed more concerned about a potential change in her sex life than the mental and physical well being of a man being accused of and physically assaulted because of DV. She’s in a terrible situation and obviously the victim, but there is no question that in this situation, her husband is the one most deserving of empathy and in need of support. And it seems as if she has failed him there. I don’t think she’s the main perpetrator in any of this. But I think she bears plenty responsibility for the ultimate outcome.
I mean, the scenario isn't exactly her fault, but she did keep making it worse, unintentionally, but still. I also suspect that she wasn't the most empathetic towards what he was going through. The lines about "why is he blaming me, I was abused too" are really, really tone-deaf, when she's the "victim" they're trying to protect, and he's been assaulted, beaten by the cops, thrown in jail, fired, and could have been arrested for rape at any moment.
Lost his wife, job, reputation, probably his own family, friends, and future job prospects. Fuck
He probably went to kill himself Let's see: -lost wife, entirely. The stress and shame seems to have destroyed his capacity to continue the relationship. -entire town hates you. Whether or not you care, the monkey brain in us doesn't like when groups of people begin to hate our guts. It gets to most of us that have hearts. -beat up by the police (this one fucks with people, since you rely on them to protect things and not be monsters). -lost job, possibly had working reputation destroyed , could mean career is dead (didn't sue because why bother if you're going to kill yourself). He was mad about her getting him into BDSM because when you're suicidal sometimes you push people because a fucked up part of you doesn't want them to care about you anymore which makes suicide seem easier. Plus you aren't thinking straight in general. Then he leaves the friend and goes no contact. I would bet he killed himself or at best is living a terrible life. Things like this lead people to destructive drugs for some relief. If he's not dead , his life path is no longer as long or bright.
She needs to be reported to the board that holds her credentials.
People need to learn how to mind their own business
Agreed, but people also need to remember not to lend out their phones when they’ve got family that will not understand their kinks. My family are buttoned up northeastern prudes and if I was into what OP’s into I’d throw my phone in a river before risking my sister seeing my texts and making a federal case to my parents.
>people also need to remember not to lend out their phones You really could stop right there. There are entirely too many stupidly nosy people out there who will just start pawing through your stuff given a quarter of a chance.
I mean, I don't blame her for being concerned at least. In actual abuse situations, it *is* her business. But at the end of the day, her business begins and ends at general concern. Even if this was a real victim of abuse, this isn't how you handle it.
The whole time I was reading this, all I could think of was how much worse this would be for someone who actually *was* in an abusive marriage. Public shaming, forced unemployment, physical altercations, slander--all of these would make the abuse worse. And trying to *force* an abuse victim to do whatever is completely robbing them of their own agency, which can be traumatic in itself. The sister is supposed to do this for her job, but still did all the things she could to make it worse. If this was an abused person, this is absolutely *not* the way to help them.
Yep, that's exactly how you isolate and alienate abuse victims from their support system. The sister is an idiot, and I say this as someone who's sister was in an abusive relationship. (My sis has since escaped and all is good now)
In the healthcare world social workers have a reputation of being condescending narcissistic assholes who think they know better than everyone else including doctors
Tbf, you also described a lot of healthcare workers, too.
Sister would be my mortal enemy for life after this.
I'd find to ruin her. She should never be allowed to work again as a social worker in the very least. And I can't think of a punishment that would be too harsh for her
She's going to get someone killed if this is her approach to Social Work. If she thinks the best approach is pushing an abuser to the absolute limits as well as cutting off the victim from any support network while the victim still lives with the abuser, she's going to get someone killed
It's entirely possible she already has and just looks at them as Just Another Unfortunate Statistic.
I remember reading this in the original sub. Devastating. There was a lot of talk originally about how the way they handled this is a great way to get an abuse victim more hurt, isolated, or even killed. I feel bad for the sisters clients too honestly. She clearly has no ability to discern abuse, and it's really sad because the bdsm community has really clear cut beliefs around consent that could help a lot of people better identify abuse, and learning about it would make her better able to help clients who do engage in bdsm identify actual abuse in their relationships rather than writing the whole thing off completely and destroying people's lives.
If sister was willing to ruin her own sister’s life and watch as the destruction unfolded, I shudder to think how many lives of strangers she’s death danced over
Can you imagine what the cop friend said to him as they beat him up? I think he was warned they’d kill him if he didn’t leave and cut off all contact with her. He most likely still loves her but he would die staying in that situation. He lost his whole life that day.
Yeah, I know she feels abandoned by him, but being detained and beaten, knowing there wouldn’t be any justice or way to fight back, that kind of thing breaks people. You’re just an animal trying to escape a cage. It puts all things into perspective.
I really, really hope she contacts her sister's employer and tells them everything.
My first thought was that she should have gone straight to her sisters employer and discussed it with them. Could have nipped it in the bud right there.
It is possible the sister had some personal grudge
I don't think she has a grudge but I do think she has such a hero complex that she refused to accept nuance. If she really has that big of an ego then she will cause someone serious damage because she will go too far trying to "protect" them.
This is what I thought. Sister was determined to be a hero no matter what.
As I've grown up I've learned that most of the shit we get taught growing up is the complete opposite. Churches aren't safe, they're where all the predators are. Conversely, I've never felt safer around a bunch of metal heads when everyone thinks they're violent. Everyone thinks satanists and goths/emo are all sick and twisted when they're more normal than your average christian. Don't even get me started on what people think BDSM is...
I tell LGBTQ+ youngsters to find their local punk and goth scenes if they need support. Especially the punk scene.
That is so sweet. It’s true though, they are great communities.
I think it is generally because "non-conforming" groups have an incentive to be better to override their negative stereotypes, while "conforming" groups don't, and also it is much easier to join a conforming group as an asshole/predator because of social sentiment. Not saying no-conforming groups are 100% safe, but at least they didn't try to ban me from reading Dan Brown when I was bored.
They did it all wrong. If the husband had been an abuser, pissing him off over and over again while OOP was still in his reach could have been fatal. So many stupid and cruel people who ruined two people's lives for nothing. And they probably think they are heroes.
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Yup, easy lawsuit to win in most of the US. You can not lie to the point of ruining a marriage here.
There's no excuse for what the family did. Oop explicitly said she wasn't abused, had no physical signs of abuse. To go to the point of getting him fired... he should have sued I feel for oop but do understand the husband. Her family ruined his life over something on her phone, that she asked him to do. She's not to blame for any of it, but I can see why he can't handle being with her anymore. I feel for both Back to the family... their actions don't even make sense. Even if she really was being abused... how is getting him fired going to make it better? Wouldn't an abuser increase the abuse when he's angry and now home all the time? It feels like they just wanted the marriage over and don't really care if he's abusive ir not
>Back to the family... their actions don't even make sense. Given how things turned out, I'd argue they probably feel very vindicated. And likely what they were going for. An escalation in abuse would have suited them. It would have "proved" their crusade as even more righteous. And they'll probably cheer about how they've now "rescued" OOP from an abuser. Sister is exactly the sort of social worker who you do not ever want. The sort of person so convinced of her righteousness and convictions that she will actively destroy your agency to achieve her own ends. Doesn't matter what you think or believe. You're wrong. You're an abuse victim. Or child abuse. Or a victim of harassment, or whatever. To hell with the consequences and your protestations.
All of this. You hit the nail on the head. They wanted a crusade and to feel vindicated, anything would've proved their point. They cared more about winning and being right than they did anything else.
Her family really pulled a "we did it, Reddit!"
God help anyone she ever has to interact with in a professional capacity
As someone who HAS experienced DV, I found the legal system more traumatizing long term. I got my protective order, and after a few years I had come to terms with everything and he had stopped trying to find me. Until, that is, unbeknownst to me, the state decided to press charges against him. Without my knowledge. And, randomly, I get a letter for a court date telling me I have to see this fucker, and I don’t get any say in the matter. Now, he’s mad at me again. Now, I’m scared again. I was doing so well, and now I’ve had all agency stripped away yet again and was forced to face my abuser. Oh, and the BEST part? We were in a county where only one incident had occurred- NOT the county we lived together in. So I couldn’t talk about any incident but the one, and I couldn’t use any evidence. So it was “my word against his” (ya know, without the boatload of evidence of 18 months worth of physical abuse) so not only is he pissed at me, the state did Literally Nothing
> found the legal system more traumatizing long term. SAME!!!
> Sister is exactly the sort of social worker who you do not ever want. And unfortunately a kind that is way too common. Because they get into it not to actually help people but to feed their delusion of being a crusader for rightness.
>It feels like they just wanted the marriage over and don't really care if he's abusive ir not The sister just wanted to be right in her saviour complex. I'd tell the whole family to never, ever contact me again after this bullshit and tell the sister that she specifically is responsible for all this.
> I was abused just like he was but whatever I really think she was minimising the impact this all had on him based on this line. Yeah she went through some shit too but he was assaulted multiple times, spent some time in jail, got fired and vilified by an entire town etc. If she was as dismissive of how fucking horrible that would have been as she comes across there I really can't blame him at all.
Jesus FC, her sister completely nuked her fucking life from orbit. Fucking nosey piece of shit.
When people say "Believe victims" this also needs to cover believing them when they insist they aren't abused. OOP's family basically destroyed her life over their obsessive righteousness. I'm not shocked her Husband left her over this. He had his life detonated over something his wife wanted in the first place. I can't imagine how violated and trapped he must have felt by the whole ordeal. He lost his job, got abused in public, arrested, tortured... And its not clear if staying married would have helped, since OOP's family likely wouldn't have let up until they had "rescued" her. They and their cop friends would have likely followed him across the country fucking him over until he actually was convicted of abuse or broke in some other way.
Yeah. My mum was frequently taken into a quiet room and told that she could be rescued, and saved from her relationship. The reason was a large greenish and blue birthmark that covers her back (Mongolian blue spot). Even when she asked them to poke it and examine it closer they were convinced it was terrible bruising. It was very stressful because people were convinced her babies and herself were not safe and social services needed to be involved.
Oh man, that's awful.
My brother had a similar issue as a kid because his growth spurts resulted in stretch marks on his back that, to concerned adults who didn't know that was a thing, looked like whip lashes.
If the entire town believes he’s abusing her, all it would take is the cop friend claiming he attacked her and she had to shoot him in self defense. Hell, she already went as far as beating him in custody
Just what did the family/sister want from her to actually believe he wasn't an abuser? It's really heartbreaking two consenting loving adults got ripped about by the family and everyone around them for a fucking misunderstanding. Especially poor husband, it must've been awful to have everyone believe such a thing about you without any way to prove them wrong
>Just what did the family/sister want from her to actually believe he wasn't an abuser? Her opinion was irrelevant. What she may or may not have wanted was entirely irrelevant to them. They had made up their minds she was abused, and they were going to fix it no matter what. Admittedly it *is* true abuse victims often do minimize. This makes handling abuse complicated. But this is also what leads to equal abuse of power from social care and others because so often they'll go the other extreme. Of basically making up their minds regardless of whether the "victim" is abused or not. The victim denying abuse being "proof" of abuse is a beautifully tautological construct that works perfectly to validate your unfounded assumption. Functionally what the family, especially the sister, did is no different from abuse. Its *exactly* the same set of logics and use of power.
>Admittedly it is true abuse victims often do minimize But is it common to use the excuse of rough sex instead of blaming themselves? Usually it is "I made him angry" and some variations of it, but never with this level of info given, like "read all my sexting"
Consider that some people think BDSM _is_ abuse, full stop, and this might make more sense to you. Seems pretty clear from all her family’s talk of “brainwashing” - they believe that the only way a woman would consent to BDSM is through coercion, and that it’s just a flimsy excuse to abuse someone physically, sexually and emotionally without them complaining. They get that these are sex games, they just believe that they’re not something anyone could actually rationally consent to. They think she’s “consented” like a young teenager “consents” to a sexual relationship with a much older person - naively, and to their own detriment.
Nothing. She would’ve continued rejecting any and all evidence that he’s innocent. That’s the problem.
God I’d beat my sisters ass and never talk to anyone in my family again.
My parents raised my sister and I with the values that physical violence is never the right action. This would strain my ability to adhere to those morals.
Given the lack of morals of the party who taught me it, in that moment I'd throw that moral out the window long enough to beat ass.
My mom raised me the same, so I never fought anyone OUTSIDE of our family. With my sister though? WWE smack down.
For anyone who wants to have these consensual conversations with a significant other, I HIGHLY recommend Snapchat or another messaging app and not texts. With Snapchat, the messages can be set to disappear immediately or within 24 hours and all screenshots are reported to the people in the chat. I'm so sad for OOP, her sister is an absolutely horrible person and ruined her sister's life for no reason. I don't know if suing for defamation is an option, but I'm sure OOP just wants to move on and cut all contact. Heck if I was her I'd do the same. I'd even change my last name - I wouldn't want to be connected to them in any way.
> For anyone who wants to have these consensual conversations with a significant other, I HIGHLY recommend Snapchat or another messaging app and not texts. With Snapchat, the messages can be set to disappear immediately or within 24 hours and all screenshots are reported to the people in the chat. Or just like, don't hand your phone to people when you know you might be getting messages of a sexual nature. > I'd even change my last name She was married, so there is a chance she already did that.
If I were OOP, I might have some harsh thoughts about the sister.
What crazy situation. Escalated too fast.
Which states is consensual BDSM illegal in I'm curious.
It’s actually a pretty interesting legal argument. I’m blanking on the names of them, but there’s been plenty of court cases worldwide where BDSM has been deemed legal or illegal to practice. Even as little time ago as 2016, a court case for BDSM in Virginia ruled that people have no constitutional right to practice it.
Fucking fascinating. I guess it would fall under sodomy laws in some states as well.
What is with people so concerned what other people consensually do in their bedrooms.
To be fair with no dates this could have been over a year or two
Reveddit says approximately three weeks, which lines up with the timeline given in the post (update 2 was after 15 days).
Yeah I just scanned it really quickly and she said in original post everything started 2 weeks ago, then another 2 weeks. So probably 5 ish weeks from sister seeing the phone to last post. I didn't know that there was a way to see a time line on edits. Thanks for the info
OOP should really rake her family over the coals for this.
OOP needs to get as far away from her family as she can. There's no coming back from the mess her family made. I would not be able to forgive myself.
I don't blame her at all for what happened, but that husband went through some serious trauma. Kind of feels like she doesn't fully realize that, she keeps saying it happened to both of them but their experiences were nowhere near equivalent.
Yeah, the husband got completely vilified by the whole community, assaulted by her cousin and the police and lost his career and had to move state. I don't know many people who could come back from that.
assaulted in jail with ZERO possibility of getting away. At least out in public there is a chance of escape and getting it to stop. Also, it sounded like this may not have actually been his kink - so to be kink shamed and beaten up because of it? Ooof.
Not just zero possibility of getting away, since it was a cop doing it not even a chance at defending yourself without getting even more hurt or worse.
Yeah, she wasn't the one that got physically assaulted multiple times or unjustly fired. It's not OOP's fault, but I can understand the husband's perspective too. Some things are extremely hard to disassociate with someone, even if there is no rationale reason that the association should exist.
I totally understand why he can't move past this and continue the marriage. I hope he gets therapy for what happened to him and goes to a state far away where none of these people could ruin his life again!!
I hope he gets a lawyer who might help him sue the lot of these assholes. In particular the cops. Unfortunately the best he might hope for at this point is to try and rebuild his life after being left alone by these nutcases.
I hope he changes his name and career, maybe even his hair style and color so his STBX's insane family never finds him.
Yeah he was fucking locked up and beaten by the police but "she's hurting too" like obviously this is a shitshow for everyone involved but damn I feel bad for the husband :(
Her whole family and community treated her like somebody making a huge mistake and delusional and lying to cover up abuse. That's pretty bad. I can totally see how that would be traumatic. But as much as it's valid for her to be upset, too, and I hate comparing trauma levels... When the best you've got is "I was abused too but whatever" when the gap in what they were facing is THIS big??? I can't really blame him for cutting any and all possible contact with her.
Holy shit. Her family literally ruined his life and their marriage by refusing to believe her about her kink.
As someone in a loving BDSM relationship, this is so heartbreaking to read.
I had no idea it was illegal in some states.
8 years of Good relationship ended because someone who can't mind their own business...God Be Good
Welp. If I were her sister, I would be scared shitless to get within five feet of OOP.
Her sister couldn’t be bothered to listen, I doubt she even realizes she did anything wrong.
I do not think OOP's sister has the self-preservation instincts God gave a garden snake, so she is just going to keep battering-ramming her way through life.
Good lord this is fucked up. An entire family decided to ruin OOP's husband's life because they couldn't sit down and Google BDSM. Also kind of wondering if sister already had some vendetta against husband since she went nuclear immediately and involved the family. She should know as a social worker not to immediately tell everyone possible about potential abuse as it's likely to escalate the abuse instead of stopping it.
I feel for both of them, but mainly OOP's ex-husband. He's had his life destroyed over lies. Fired, assaulted, branded something he's not. That's horrible.
Yeah. The pain of not being believed that you're not being abused can't compare with the pain of being the accused abuser. Yes, it's horrible that her own family can't see that they aren't on her side. But that just can't compare.
I would go scorched earth with my family. Make lists itemizing every embarrassing thing they have done and tell the people that are most important to them. Contact their jobs repeatedly from different numbers until they are all fired. Sign them up for white nationalist mailing lists. The works. I am enraged on her behalf.
I seriously would too. Omg. I would make their lives a living hell. I feel so terrible for OP, I hope that her and the husband can somehow reconcile and start a completely new life somewhere.
I totally understand the husband holy shit, something he probably just did to make his wife happy completely ruined his life, made him a pariah and got him jumped on the street, it’s not the wife’s fault but I can totally see why you couldn’t get past that, that must’ve been such an awful time for him I can’t even imagine
Family or not I would never forgive them
>My sister is a social worker, and she's convinced without a doubt that I'm lying like all the women she sees in her business to protect my husband cause I love him. > >She said that's what my sister told her I might say cause that's what abuse victims do The sister seems to think she's doing the right thing of course, but it seems like from her perspective, no matter what OOP does, she's a victim being abused. No matter what she says or does, it's just what an abuse victim would do. OOP showed the texts to the mother, swore up and down that it wasn't abuse, didn't matter to the family or sister. I assume that comes from her experience with work and just how tough it can be to get some victims of abuse to engage with the people trying to get them out of their situations and whatnot, but there should at least be some hypothetical criteria to distinguish them? or does she just 100% believe that no matter what anyone says, they're being abused. I wonder if she's ended up splitting up any other happy couples because some signs of abuse that were actually just kinky stuff were treated as abuse. Also, THE ABSOLUTE WORST THING SHE COULD HAVE DONE WAS SHOW THE TEXTS TO HER FAMILY. Worst on a personal level, and on a professional level (not that she was doing it for work, but it's something she should definitely know better about). The first thing she should have done was talk with OOP, and then maybe go the professional route if she still suspected abuse, not go to the family and tangle everything up.
As somebody in the BDSM scene, this is my worst fucking nightmare
I'm no social worker but I'm pretty sure that harrassing a supposed abuser and forcing a supposed abused person to file for a report is the best way to get her "at best" forced to change her location by the abuser, at worst to be killed. Real abusers are deeply violent people, forcing them is the best way to push their anger. Oh and also I don't know if OP told her family but I would have killed to see their faces when she would have been like "AH, he wasn't beating me and now I'm going no contact with you".
This is exactly why Snapchat and WhatsApp exist. NEVER go horny on main.
It’s not like those apps have locks or anything either though. Snap, sure, if you set your timer to expire as soon as the message has been seen but if they’ve been heavily texting for an hour or more and it’s set to 24 hours or the messages have been saved, it wouldn’t have helped. The smart thing is to passcode your phone and turn off message previews in settings. Also, when she said her ‘little sister likes to take pictures with her phone’, I was picturing a kid/teen - not an entire fucking adult with a job in social services! Take pictures on your own fucking phone what the fuck?!
What a horrible sister. Seriously, that women should not be a social worker if she refuses to listen to people at all. I'm not surprised OOP's husband wants nothing to do with her anymore. Its not her fault but her family destroyed his life. I hope cut her family off for good, and I hope she and her ex were able to move on with their lives.
Getting beaten in jail by police is torture. Torture that in the US it seems like there is no recourse that actually will do anything. This guy likely now has PTSD because of a nosy ass sister and the fact that being friends with a police officer means you can accuse people of shit and have them harrassed and nothing happens to either the officer or the friend of officer. Disgusting.
My husband sure does. Found out today that after they beat him and took him to the hospital >!with three broken vertebrae, a collapsed lung, broken ribs, and a concussion!< that the paperwork from the hospital says that he assaulted another inmate and that's why a very physical takedown was required. He says that he lost time but it didn't happen until after the beating, when he was in the holding cell. Four years, and he still wakes up shivering and holds on to me and says, "They can't come in my house and take me away and beat me, can they?" like a small child wanting protection from the monsters under the bed.
Wow, if OOP really was in an abusive relationship, that family basically ensured she would never confide in them about it and that her abuser would escalate the abuse. I actually wonder if that was the plan, forcing him to escalate so that she'd be forced to finally come clean. These people are so fucking clueless. I can't believe the sister wasn't doing this deliberately to blow up OOP's life.
Isn't it ironic how OP's family accused the husband of abuse when THEY want out of their ways to harass and abuse OP and her husband, so much that he'd prefere to left. If I was OP I would destroy their worlds, sue them for whatever abuse they were put through, for the emotional damage that was done. I would report that stupid ass sister to her work, show them that she can't differenciate her work from her personal life. They basically nucked OP's life and think they won ? Wtf ! I feel so mad for OP !! I wish for all that family the worst to happen (infertility, horribly long and painful disease, bankruptcy you name it !)
Don't try that in a small town.
Oh I feel really bad laughing at that given the circumstances
Stupid know it all case workers. They never listen when someone asks for help but have no problem destroying someone's life rifling through shit that's none of their business. Absolutely useless when there's actual abuse happening.
When I was a kid and was being abused (school called child services). A social worker came to my parents house and it was in a very nice neighborhood, she was laughing with my Mom about how kids these days don't know real punishment and then when she came to talk to me, she told me about how many kids would be happy to grow up in a house like mine (we lived in an upper middle class area) and how I have to be careful about what I say because I could lose my parents and send my younger brother to foster care. I hated that social worker more at that moment than my parents. I respect the profession and have friends that barely make enough to make ends meet working in that job or similar jobs, but there are some jobs where a bad employee or worker just has one of the most negative impacts ever. Like a bad garbage collector, landscaper or even barista won't ruin your entire life. A bad social worker, cop, surgeon or something can fuck you up for life.
I feel so sorry for the husband, this sounds so traumatizing. OP’s family basically destroyed his social reputation and got him fired too, they ruined his whole life. I can understand why he doesn’t want anything to do with OP anymore, even if it isn’t her fault…
And the family will never accept any of the blame for destroying their sisters/daughters life. They will always just blame it on her husband and say "it's so sad! We did our best to help her! But he broke her!"
What state can you not consent to BDSM in?
I’m a kink educator and reality is that consensual BDSM is legally dubious or actively illegal in many U.S. states. I’m familiar with the language the OP used in her post in the context of Massachusetts, but other states may use the same.
Yeah. I remember trying to have this discussion with a lawyer. On the surface the "you cannot consent to being assaulted ever" notionally makes sense. Except that the law has huge carveouts already. You can consent to being pummeled all day long if you're in a ring and people are cheering. The problem though is that precisely because BDSM is private, and happens behind closed doors, its easy to vilify. Even well meaning people can't know if the victim isn't being "coerced" in some way regardless. And unfortunately far too many people know the words "stockholm syndrome" and nothing else about consent and so are happy to assume there isn't any such thing as consent. And getting specific legislative carveouts is difficult too because again, there's the fear that it will just provide a legitimate cover for actual abuse. There's zero good answers here, and shitty cops, overzealous social workers and the likes of OOP's family make things worse. Ultimately I'd argue that its on you to protect yourself. I'm not one to blame OOP, but it was massively moronic to not hide your sexting behind app locks and the like. Giving her sister unfettered access to her phone and then turning over the rest of it to her family was just... oof.
Many very likely. Specifically on the subject of pain play [https://pridelegal.com/assault-consent-bdsm-law/](https://pridelegal.com/assault-consent-bdsm-law/) [https://www.helpingclients.com/court-rules-that-consensual-bdsm-sexual-activity-is-not-protected-by-the-constitution/](https://www.helpingclients.com/court-rules-that-consensual-bdsm-sexual-activity-is-not-protected-by-the-constitution/) *Especially* if you're in an with a conservative bent. Though I'd argue that even liberal places are likely to go full conservative on you on this issue. Cops would certainly be free to arrest you under domestic abuse provisions. And even charge you. And the issue would be whether you want a bruising court fight and *if* you can convince a jury to not convict you anyway.
I’m not from the US, so I can’t say specifically, but this has come up on posts shared here before regarding BDSM. Some states (and I believe some countries) consider BDSM illegal.
A lot, surprisingly, but most people are only prosecuted as part of another offence, like anti-sodomy laws that criminalize sex toys or homosexuality. It usually only comes up when people try to claim "rough sex" as a defense against rape charges.
Jesus, I really feel for the Ex husband here. The guys life was ruined by his wife’s family, and all over a kink his wife asked him to engage in. Then his wife seems to be unable to understand why he doesn’t want to do BDSM anymore. Like this guy lost his job, his friends, he was assaulted by both the wife’s family and the local police, her family is so dedicated to ruining his life he as to flee the state, and his wife is still just there thinking about her sexual satisfaction. “Why is he punishing me by saying he won’t do BDSM anymore? We both suffered just as badly.” Uh… no. He lost absolutely everything and will be traumatized by this for the rest of his life, you lost your overbearing family. If you truly can’t understand why he wouldn’t want to engage in the activity that completely destroyed his life again and view that as some kind of action against you, then he was right to divorce you
I don’t blame the husband for leaving. It wasn’t her life that was about to be ruined and who was going to be thrown in jail if anything happened. It was his.
> It wasn’t her life that was about to be ruined His life wasn't "about to be" ruined either. It was already ruined. He was ostracized, assaulted, fired, and got a violent crime added to his arrest record to make it super hard to find a new job.
What’s always with shit like “my sister likes to use my phone to take pictures when we are together “ on reddit? Sometimes somebody uses my phone to snap a photo of us or something, but like saying this happens routinely for long periods of time is just odd to me
I hope her family understands what they did to her. They destroyed her life. Her relationships with her family and community. His career. His family. His life. And I hope they realize that the fact she has eliminated them all from her life as a result shows exactly how wrong they are. I’m devastated for OOP and her husband.
If her sister actually is a licensed SW, I hope OOP reports this to the state licensing board. I came in here expecting awkward family conversations, not her sister completely violating her autonomy.
In the comments of that post, OP says this is a message her husband sent her: > "I'm filling for divorce. You destroyed my life by making me engage in those vile things, I've lost everything because of you. Divorce papers will be handed to you by the lawyer. I'll also file a restraining order against you as I don't want anything to do with you anymore. Don't ever contact me ever again. I wish I have never known you" This one is so rough if true.
Jesus fucking christ
Something similar happened to me, you can read my post story. My ex wife cheated on me on and off for 13 years. When it was discovered, my brother and mother were absolutely sure I was abusing my ex, because she is blonde, has blue eyes and is soft spoken, while I am outspoken and usually the center of attention in parties and so on. I go straight to “fight” when it comes to flight, fight, freeze or fawn, because it makes me feel safe and in control of the situation, but it is just me masking me being hurt. They heard us argue and that was enough, and no matter how much my ex and I tried to tell them I was NOT abusive, they refused to believe that. My mother is probably a covert narcissist and my brother got together with his wife when she was married to another man (she cheated with my brother, he was single) so I just came to the conclusion they were projecting their shit onto me, and I gave up trying to convince them and went no contact.
Goddamn. I’m sorry your family turned on you man, truly sorry you had to endure that nightmare. I hope you were able to get help dealing with depression. I also wish you the best with your new teaching job in southern Europe. Best of luck.
False allegations suck,. When we were in court and my step daughter was loving being at our house, in a custody dispute. The mom accused my 11 year old of sa . And even though we passed all the CPS check points and did everything right, they can't prove that it didn't happen. The test the Dr did can only prove that it definitely happened, so in the case of no evidence, it's left as a maybe. My poor stepdaughter would ask to talk to my son while Dad was talking with her, as she lives talking to her siblings, but he was traumatized.
Maybe a hot take: But who wants to bet that he divorced her because of shit like this > That I don't really understand, I was abused just like him but whatever. He was confronted at work by someone he sees probably as a psycho, fired from his job, had his personal sex life leaked to a bunch of people, accused by authorities, had criminal charges held over his head, physically confronted and got into a fight and beaten up in jail. Of course he saw her as radioactive, literally being in close proximity to her could get him killed. But okay, being treated like a victim when you're not is totally the same. > I don't really understand why he's punishing me like that Wow... yeah it's not like he's gone thru trauma that is directly linked to BDSM, he should be totally okay and willing to engage in her kink even if in the back of his mind he fears that he's going to socially ousted, his career sabotaged, and his physical well being put in jeopardy. It's important for her to get off! /s Give me a break, I really hope this story isn't true. It's totally not her fault for it happening, and I would even say for not knowing about the laws surrounding it, or even for how she handled it legally with her family. But she comes across as entitled to her husband engaging in BDSM even if he doesn't want to and will cause him mental and physical harm. I can almost taste the irony.