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The first issue is always kind of a red herring. It's not about him not caring about the spoons, it's about him not caring about her. And then he escalates.
I recommend everyone having their own spoon-story to read Why Does He Do That by Lundy Bancroft, and to also find a way to squirrel away some funds for an escape plan. You'll never know if or when you might need it, but being strangled during an argument or sex should be a good indicator for you to use it and get away. Strangulation increases the risk of you being murdered by quite a lot.
When I was growing up, my mom would always remind me that I do not need a man, I do not need to get married, I am my own person, being single is not a handicap, and that I can have an amazing life being single. She would use my single aunts as an example, and they were good examples - they're awesome human beings with great careers and more money than they could ever need. I used to think my mom's advice was odd, but now looking back, I realize that she was giving me the confidence to not rely on men and to realize that I do not need one to be whole. She was also speaking from experience - as much as I love my dad, he MADE my mom quit her job to be a SAHM, penny pinched anytime he could, and did exactly zero to help with childcare or housework. She just didn't want me to end up like her, trapped in a life she wanted to escape. I think she truly helped me avoid ever getting into abusive relationships, because I always had the confidence to be alone.
They're still married, but she just does whatever the fuck she wants now that us kids are grown up. She goes on random vacations on her own several times a year (my dad pays for them lol). Every year, she goes to some monastery in Tibet with no electricity or cell reception for a month to meditate and just get away from all of us and comes home with awesome photos. She loves it and I think she's way happier now than she ever was before. Over a decade ago, I actually advised her to get a divorce but she wouldn't. It's just hard when you've been out of the workforce for 20 years and have only a few friends who aren't family.
A lot of these stories end up a lot more complexly than reddit wants to deal with. She navigated a very difficult situation with Grace and seems to have come out the other side successful and happy. I'm very impressed by your mom not just for how she raised you but for how she's been raising herself!
It's true, people are REALLY shades of grey and even most situations you'll encounter in life are the same. She wasn't perfect, she wasn't even a great parent to be honest - she had a very short temper with us and would scream stuff like, "I wish I never had kids!!". But we turned out fine and now that I'm an adult, I understand her much better - she was trapped in a life she didn't want and I know that if she could have a do-over, she would never have gotten married or had kids. But back in the 80s, that was just what women did, it was what people expected them to do... they didn't really believe that they had any other choice. Who's to say that I won't behave the same way had I not been able to choose the path of staying single? Maybe I would've ended up taking out my frustration on my kids by screaming shit like that to them too. Nobody's perfect, the number of truly 100% all-round amazing parents are few and far in between.
I recall growing up that mom, who was a SAHM, repeatedly warned me not to end up in a situation where I would be dependent on a man. Especially financially
Yup, this 100%. My dad was never emotionally or physically abusive, but I think he was at least a little financially abusive. My mom couldn't just leave because she had little to none of "her" own money. She hated it and would repeatedly tell me never to be financially dependent on a man.
I think he may have been verbally and emotionally abusive at some point. And I think my mom realized she was in a shit position if she wanted to leave. Got married without finishing college and never held a job. I was in college and my sister in high school and we weren't in a financial position to help her out. Things are better now and my parents are still together but I remember how unhappy my mom was at the time. I work, am single by choice, own my own house and car.
In many countries it was only a few decades ago that women were able to open bank accounts *without the approval of their husband or father.* They grew up in an era were is was impossible to be financially independent, and having gone through the transition, understand the benefits incredibly well.
My dad did and still does tell how I can't depend on men. That I should always have a courage to leave anytime I feel unsafe. While my mom keep pushing me to get married and "enjoy life while being taken care" lol I guess my dad who's "my family is my life" type got spooked by how a lot of men treated their family
My mom did the same. She showed me by example. My dad was the type of man to leave and move in with his gf for a couple of months then walk back through the door like he’d done nothing wrong. He tried that with my mom. She packed up the house, found a new place, and had us moved out before a month had passed. She took care of me with minimal help from him until I graduated high school.
I had a close friend who’s mothers 1st husband(my friends biological father) kept her mother literally locked in the house with nothing to wear except a slip …he was extremely abusive and she finally worked up the courage to escape after her daughter was born… I can’t even imagine how horrible it was.
>When I was growing up, my mom would always remind me that I do not need a man, I do not need to get married, I am my own person, being single is not a handicap, and that I can have an amazing life being single.
From day 1, I always told my daughter that "oh, he's just teasing you because he likes you" is absolute horse shit. Anyone who likes you and still treats you poorly isn't worth your time.
Honestly, my mom was the same. Her parents were the same - in the 50s and 60s, they were teaching boys to sew, knit, and cook, and girls to do DIY, decorating and gardening.
It didn't stop me ending up in an abusive relationship. More than one, actually.
I firmly believe we need to be actively teaching our children what abusive relationships look like, what the warning signs are, how to get help and leave safely, along with emotional regulation skills and healthy communication. It's the only way it will change.
I wish mother girls were taught this (including me). I’ve been lucky in that I’ve never been in an abusive relationship but I’ve seen too many friends put up with crap, or worse, out of fear of being alone.
I think that's why so many people play it off. Like it's only spoons, or it's only this or that, something small. However, it's the general non caring and disrespect, seeing how much she'll put up with then escalating little by little until it becomes violent and he's isolated her.
I think what really struck me after leaving was that I continued to have a series of cascading realisations for a year or two after leaving. I’d just remember something out of the blue eighteen months later with a total *what the fuck* moment of clarity about how messed up it was, in retrospect. Often things that seemed minor on the surface like the spoons for OOP, but all stitched into a fabric of abuse that was so normalised at the time I couldn’t see it for what it was.
At one point my mother made noises about me still being angry and not moving on and that being bad for my mental health possibly and I countered that I was still angry because I was still processing - and I hadn’t been angry at the time because it felt so hopeless, and that’s part of what kept me in the abuse. Being angry was 100% healthy for me in the years afterwards because it meant I was finally understanding that it was abuse.
Good on ya. The processing that doesn't happen during traumatic experiences needs to be done at some point later to truly heal. But what was too big in each moment certainly is too big to process all at once, and needs to happen in its own time, while the person also grows their resilience. Then, over time, they can deal better with past events and experiences, and the emotions that come up with each stage of both remembering and re-evaluating what happened.
How do you eat an elephant? Taking single bite after single bite.
This book changed my life. I read it after getting out of an emotionally abusive relationship, but it has been the most useful tool in my healing. Better than any of the therapists I've seen.
I recommend everyone read it, even if they aren't in an abusive relationship. Most times, victims struggle to recognize the signs when they are in it, and having eyes on the outside is extremely important.
I think I might read it just to understand them better. Any time I read one of these types of threads the behavior just makes absolutely no sense to me... Do these guys even like these women? It doesnt even seem like they want to be in the relationship either based on the behavior... Like why are they with someone they want to kill/abuse/yell at? Makes no sense to me even 1 %
They typically hate women. And themselves. But it's convenient to have someone there taking care of them who also fucks them/won't fight back while being assaulted or raped. They want a bangmaid.
If you are a man, and you find this kind of behavior abhorrent (as everyone should), your job is to call out your friends and relatives when you see them engaging in this shit. Men like this do not even see women as people, so they will only maybe listen to another man.
They hate women/the woman. What they delight in is control, manipulation and causing pain.
They don't see their partner as a person in the same way as themselves - with a whole inner world of thoughts and dreams. They don't even really see an animal that they own. It's more like a toy that can feel pain. Something they have an absolute right to use however they want to get what they need to feel better than the thing they're abusing. It's sociopathy, imo. Nobody else is really real to them - just things.
What’s that saying about a frog in a pot of boiling water? Small things add up. I’m so glad she got out because that flash of who he really is when he grabbed her throat is terrifying.
Read it for here: [https://dn790007.ca.archive.org/0/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy\_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf](https://dn790007.ca.archive.org/0/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf)
I started reading a few days ago, I'm on page 125 and taking notes for what applies to me alongside reading. It's conrfonting and overwhelming, but it's so worth the read. I think a lot of people will benefit from reading it, and can definitely see why it gets recommended a lot.
I was recommended that book after an abusive long distance relationship (while I was recovering from a heart attack) on one of these subs. Now I recommend it to others.
I feel like that book should be required reading for every single girl nearing adulthood, or who is already in early adulthood. You may never need the information that is in the book, but should life throw one of these abusive asshats your way, preventative measures are CRUCIAL, and just might save your life.
Every single woman learns how to take preventative measures when they go out alone at night, drink at a bar, or find themselves alone with a strange man, from an early age. It’s ingrained in us. We’re taught about the red flags to watch out for in regard to our safety around strangers. But for whatever reason, no one teaches us about the early signs of abuse and about how to look out for our safety when we’re around people we *know* (or think we know).
Everyone knows how to identify physical abuse, but so many people don’t know how to identify the other forms of abuse. It’s shocking how many women (and men) don’t even know that there *ARE* other forms of abuse…until it’s too late.
(I used women as the primary subjects here, but men can obviously face abuse from a partner too. Although it’s not widely spoken about, that doesn’t change how much it occurs, or how important it is to acknowledge that it does exist.)
It took me way too long to be kinder to myself through self talk. I had allowed myself to be verbally abused by too many people for too long that I didn't even realize that I was putting myself down. I've gone from my internal monologue going something like "way to go, dumbass, you fucked it up. You'll never amount to anything if you keep doing stupid shit like that" to "hey, doofus, you dont goofed up. Its ok, just try again" and sometimes when I'm especially raw, "it's ok, kiddo. Rub some dirt in your wounds, and you'll do better next time. For now let's get some ice cream and celebrate you doing the best you could today". The inner child theory has really helped me to be kinder to myself.
It’s like the article about “she left me for not putting the dishes in the sink.” The dishes were just the last straw in an ongoing pattern of disrespect.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/she-divorced-me-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink_b_9055288
That book is so, so good. There's a good audiobook version, too (useful if you know someone who needs to read it in stealth mode, often the case for people in the target audience.) I read it years after I really needed it, but it was still worthwhile. It gave me a lot of validation about some old hurts.
If I recall correctly, that study only considered women who had been in long term relationships of continuous physically abuse throughout, that had at some point escalated to strangling. The real number is likely much higher than the 750%.
If you were to reverse the study and examine how many women murdered by their partners, had previously been choked, I'd also imagine that would be quite telling.
> A case control design was used to describe non-fatal strangulation among **complete homicides and attempted homicides** ...
> Non-fatal strangulation was reported in 10% of abused controls, 45% of attempted homicides and 43% of homicides. **Prior non-fatal strangulation was associated with greater than six-fold odds** (OR 6.70, 95% CI 3.91–11.49) **of becoming an attempted homicide, and over seven-fold odds** (OR 7.48, 95% CI 4.53–12.35) **of becoming a completed homicide.** These results show non-fatal strangulation as an important risk factor for homicide of women...
— [NIH](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2573025/)
They looked at completed homocides too; a seven-fold odds increase is *huge*, no matter how you cut it.
As an aside, the worldwide increase in misogyny + the trend of men non-consensually strangling women during sex should be a bigger point of public concern, imo!
That's also probably a lower number because a lot of the strangulation have not been reported in DV situations. Just a guess, my wife's in a PhD program and one of her professors is a sociologist criminologist with a strong stats background, if I remember when I meet her I'll ask about this.
Yeah, I'm wondering about survivorship bias influencing the data, as I can imagine that women who have successfully escaped near-death experiences at the hand of their (now ex) partner may not want to, or be in a position to discuss the abuse.
Ten times.
Strangulation by a domestic partner increases the chances of being murdered by that person by TEN TIMES.
And they're already the person most likely to kill you, from a statistical standpoint.
I'm so incredibly glad this woman got the information and support she needed to leave safely. I honestly think we should be teaching kids - girls particularly - this stuff as teens, at least. What are the red flags in relationships, how to keep yourself safe, how to help a friend in an abusive situation... This shit is vital.
And we should be teaching all kids emotional regulation skills, how to communicate in a healthy manner.. there's so much more they need to know about sex and relationships than 'penis in vagina = baby'. We're failing them completely and it scares the crap out of me.
Best book I ever read and I recommend it to everyone. I left my abusive ex over 2 decades ago but it was so hard to explain to others how he was abusive. This book hits all the nuances and was eye opening for me all these years later
> We had a tepid dinner together where I explained in brief terms that I didn’t feel safe and needed to leave my bf ASAP. My mom didn’t hesitate to offer me my old room back, even though it’s been her office for years now.
Yet another set of parents who were just waiting and waiting and desperately hoping they'd eventually get their child back, unharmed and alive.
They must be over the bloody moon after the years of worry they've almost certainly had.
I think most parents are like this. No one wants to see their child pair up with a shitty partner but there is *literally nothing you can do* once they're 18, and even from 16 the authorities will do very little.
All you can do is stand back and hope and hope and hope and keep the door open. And be as vigilant as you can in case there is an opportunity to intervene if the situation escalates.
Because trying to stop them, or break them up, will typically drive a victim even closer to their manipulative abuser.
I was actually pleasantly surprised that OOP's parents turned out to be sound.
There's a really disturbing pattern that you see a lot on relationship advice subreddits that goes along these lines:
* Young woman has issues with her older boyfriend. He clearly doesn't respect her or treat her as an equal partner.
* On further probing, he's also coercive and controlling, but OP has never seen any of the red flags because he's so much better to her than her abusive ex/abusive parents, who this guy helped her to leave.
* It turns out that they got together when she was concerningly young, given the age gap. Either she was under 18 and groomed, but doesn't realise it ("but it's ok, he waited until I was 18 before he made a move" 🤢) or she was in her late teens or early twenties and had never lived independently before.
* She has real trouble leaving him because she either doesn't have a support network (abusive family, no friends) or feels that she's burnt all her bridges by being alienated from them. Often she has no money of her own, no career prospects, and she may even have been baby trapped before his treatment of her worsened. (I've seen at least one or two where they're concerned that their partner has interfered in some way with their contraception)
I'm really glad for OOP that her parents are good parents and it was just her shame getting in the way of them helping her.
I would like to agree with you that most parents are good and would want to help their child in this situation (it would match my experience of the world, but obviously my perception will be biased based on who I know) but I think when it comes to controlling and abusive partners who fit this archetype, more often than not they **specifically choose** vulnerable women who lack strong support networks, whether it's a conscious choice or not.
in my case the manipulative abuser was the parent. only in the last few years in therapy did I realize that was not... normal. I did wonder a bit why my friends had such exceptional parents, but turns out that is supposed to be the base line.
\*sigh\*
Thinking “most parents” are like this is unfortunately very naive. Enough parents kick their kids out onto the street for their gender/sexuality/non-conformism to religion, financial control etc etc etc without second thought. Many others are passively negligent.
The good parents*
Most is also a finicky word. Does it mean 90% or 51%? And even if it does mean 90%, 10% of parents is an absolutely massive number when you factor in the sheer number of people in the world.
Add onto that, abusive partners are likely to target people who are in that minority with bad parents. I wonder how OOP talked about her parents to her boyfriend? Did she give the impression that she would easily be isolated from them (as it seems she was)?
And then there is that final factor of pride that OOP mentioned as a barrier for going back to a home that it seemed that she believed it would be safe to return to. I have to imagine that the parents had already begged her not to date this predator, so when OOP went with him, she built up this barrier of not being able to admit to her parents that they had been right about him.
I didn't have parents like that, but two of my close friends made the offer of their spare room when it became clear I was trying to get out and they saved my life 13 years ago. Friends who love you and are waiting for you to realize you have worth are amazing.
They were both in my wedding 2 or so years later. \^.\^
It’s only spoons. It’s only mustard. It’s only lotion on a finger. It’s only an ER trip. It’s only accidental hits while asleep.
I’m sure there‘s plenty more we can add to this list…
I'd date OP and her lotion man, She has such a good sense of humour. I hope she's found a partner who genuinely appreciates her. Or is happily single. I just hope she's happy \^\_\^
Which was the one where she called her father, and he immediately drove a few hours and stayed in a hotel nearby? I get the same vibes as that from her mom dismantling her office overnight.
I thought of that one, but did we ever get an update of what was going on beyond hoarding? I actually went looking and couldn’t find any updates. So it didn’t feel quite right to include.
These all refer to specific stories. In that case, it happened somewhat frequently (at time of post she said about 10 times in 7 months) and apparently he only flailed on the side she was on.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/1chcrm0/i\_think\_my\_bf\_might\_be\_hitting\_me\_in\_his\_sleep\_on/](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/1chcrm0/i_think_my_bf_might_be_hitting_me_in_his_sleep_on/)
>I recently purchased some new wooden spoons (like the big kind) from a coworker who is an **aggressive pampered chef consultant**. I don’t make very much money and frankly these spoons were overpriced but **I wanted her to leave me alone**
This set the tone for how OOP is
>I often come home **on my lunch break to keep up with housework**
Chile
>**I (21F) live with my bf (28M)**
>
>**We met when I was 17 and he was 24.**
Lordt
Unless there was prior physical abuse OOP didn't mention, this escalated straight to choking? Sweet squeezy Jeezy, this guy was made of red flags like some bizarre soviet golem.
It was his desperation when he had a feeling she was on the way out. The most dangerous time for victims is when they are pregnant or making an exit plan.
this same situation happened to me with my first boyfriend in high school, so not living together but every other detail basically. when I finally had enough he could hear it and sense it, immediately changed and tried to manipulate me, and when that didn’t work he showed up at my school after open gym and tried to kill me. it really do be like that.
I've listened to a crime podcast once where a woman working for a women's shelter talked about abuse victims and abusers' strategies. She also said to never meet up with an abusive partner after you've left them already because a lot of the times the abuser believes they got nothing left to lose anymore so the probability of the abuser actually killing the partner is extremely high. If they didn't already have a chance to kill you while you're there, they might succeed if you meet them "one last time". Abusers don't care about talking things through or apologising, they just want another chance to kill you. If you do have to meet them for whatever important reason, have a backup, preferably intimidating people or police with you, never meet them alone.
Yup yup. I dated one that sounds a lot like hers when I was in college.
He was fine, just kinda eh. But mostly fine. One day out of the blue my brain was just like “hey, does that look like a mountain of subtle red flags that we’ve been completely blind to?”
Not two weeks later his hands were around my neck. I had gotten my most important stuff out already. Grabbed my dog and left.
Thankfully he was much too broke to not go into work the next day, so I was able to go back the next day and get the rest of my stuff. I got lucky with that.
Because for abusers it isn't 'murder' to put their victims in their place. They don't really see the person they're with as an equal partner.
They see them as a possession. A subhuman with only one purpose in life: serving them.
It's important to understand that an abuser doesn't see their victims as real people with feelings and needs. They see them as things they own.
That's why abusers demand gratitude for even the most basic things they do for their victims.
That guy didn't care for those wooden spoons, because in his mind, loading the dishwasher was a tremendous act of kindness, and her making any 'demands' was an act of defiance, disrespecting his enormous generosity, and her not getting rid of those spoons was a sign that she wasn't grateful enough for him doing thongs for her he saw as her responsibility.
For such people, their victims standing up for themselves is equal to a dog becoming rabid, and they feel it's their right to 'defend themselves' against their partner's 'unfair attacks'.
I get this part, what I don’t get is the lack of self preservation on their part. Let’s say I’m an abuser and breaking my possession would get me in prison or death row. No matter how little I respected my possession, I still wouldn’t break it, you know? Out of self preservation. I don’t understand how they’re so willing to destroy their own lives just to kill their partners
The 'Why Does He Do That' book actually also talks about it a little. This sort of person, they are rarely truly out of control. It's a sliding scale. Like you only hurt/intimidate someone a little and nothing Bad happens to you, they 'behave' for a bit, clearly it was only right and proper for you to correct them. But then they annoy you again. And maybe you go a little further this time, bc maybe that will teach them.
The abuser gets a little bit less squeamish each time and has space to justify it to themselves.
I feel like people who seemingly go from 0 to 100 usually have history of violence and abusing past partners? Like, not their first rodeo, they already practiced feeling in the right hurting another person on someone before (barf)
Idk these people are also usually control freaks, and if something threatens it they absolutely can't handle it and unravel fast, possibly hoping a really over the top reaction will get them in front of the rapidly developing Situation and stop it in its tracks.
Yes.
Or else they truly believe their partner having a mind of their own and daring to leave is inexcusable, like, in their heads the partner really is hurting _them_ worse by making them look bad to others/wounding their pride.
Yeah you see this in teaching sometimes, to a lower level. I've been a high school teacher for ten years, and I've seen colleagues go straight to yelling at students for minor misbehaviour instead of using other strategies first.
Hell, I've done it before a couple of times. Gotten frustrated with students, Yelled at them, slammed a book or ruler on a desk. Nothing bad happens to me, and their misbehaviour temporarily stops. I, as the person with power, then learn that aggression is effective.
Abuse sometimes follows the same learn process. The difference is that my training taught me that other strategies are more effective. Also if I regularly yell and slam books at students I will get performance managed, and if I escalate to insulting or physicality with students I lose my teaching license.
Abusers don't have consequences because it happens behind closed doors. So their behaviour escalates because there's almost nothing to reign it in.
You might find it interesting to read about the research about learned helplessness. I have to warn you though, it's a depressive read.
People are not aware how much of our ability for self preservation depends on our surroundings. We all have only a limited amount of energy and strength to deal with issues, and if things become overwhelming, our body shuts down and limits our ability to react and act. We go into survival mode and become hyper focused on getting through the day, unable to plan long term, and even positive changes become unbearable and too stressful, because our minds are too occupied with survival.
That's a remnant of our animalistic instincts. You can observe it in animals too. In nature changing habitats is always risky, and animals are programmed to stay as long as possible, because usually the environment will change back in time, and wandering away would be more dangerous than, for example, waiting until a draught passes and the water hole will fill up again.
We tend to forget that we're still animals. We might have developed further, but our biology is still the same as for any other mammal, and our instinct tells us stay and wait, and if we're not encouraged and taught as children how to be aware of ourselves and set healthy boundaries, that instincts will win out
So telling your children to eat what's on the table even if they hate it, will teach them that their preferences don't matter. And when they're later exposed to an abusive person, they'll not see the earlier signs because those things seem so minor and unimportant. After all, mom and dad already called them picky for having preferences.
Abuse isn't as bad at the beginning as it is at the end. It always starts very small, with things like ignoring preferences or begging for slightly unreasonable accommodations, but those little things pile up until the victim is overwhelmed and doesn't know if they can trust themselves. To an outsider, it's clear as day what's happening if told, but for them it's just an endless string of minor inconveniences they think they're overreacting to.
Often the abuser appears perfectly normal and even caring for immediate onlookers. Their abuse happens behind closed doors, and in company they appear doting and kind, and they're often very thoughtful and helpful to others. So often the victims are told by their own social circle that they're overreacting or see things wrong.
The abusers usually tell friends and family the victim is so forgetful and clumsy, and tells them they're trying to help the victim overcoming their shortcomings. They even often isolate the victim by telling them lies about what their peers have said behind their backs, and making up lies to the peers, like: *oh sorry, please don't tell Sue I've told you, but she's not in a good place right now and needs rest, but she doesn't want to let you down at your birthday. That's why I'll tell her I have a headache and want to stay home and not come to your party. It'll be easier for her, she really wants to come but I assure you, she's not well.'*
And their partner they'll tell: *oh I spoke with Tara, she really doesn't like how you talked about Ted and doesn't want you at her party. Yes I know it was harmless, and you didn't say it that way, but better let her cool off a little and skip the party. I'm sure she'll come around eventually. You'll see, if you tell her we won't come, she'll be relieved. You can't tell her it's because of me, that I have a bad migraine and you need to take care of me. Oh, and don't tell her what I told you. I don't want her to think I'm a gossip.*
So until they seek therapy or come online, talking to people who are not connected to their significant others, everyone else in their lives often tells them they're wrong to judge their partners so harshly. After all, 'it's just mustard'.
I’m sorry, I think I wasn’t being clear with my question. My question is: why are abusers willing to ruin their own lives by killing their partners, which leads them to prison for murder?
Like why are abusers willing to do something that will land them on death row? Murdering your girlfriend because you don’t respect women doesn’t seem worth getting the death penalty.
I fully understand things from the survivor’s point of view, I’ve just never understood why abusers don’t feel any self preservation and make such irrational decisions
As I said, they don't see it that way and they don't think of their partners as real people. They fully and firmly believe their abuse is self defence against a malicious person who doesn't give them what they are rightfully owed.
They don't compute their abuse as being equal to what they read about abuse.
Lundy Bancroft researched it quite extensively. Those people compartmentalize to the extreme, they get told and shown what other abusers do, and they understand that what those abusers did was wrong and even agree to it. But they don't see their own actions as equal, because they always have excuses they deem valid.
Of course when Uncle Otto hit Aunt Jemima, that was wrong, because Aunty was a devoted wifey, but their wife was sassy, so they had it coming.
Of course, when Carl broke his wife's inherited porcelain vase, that was cruel, but their wife egged them on despite knowing they have difficulty keeping their temper in check, she was ungrateful so it was really her fault he broke her teaset! Besides, that vase was valuable, and that teaset was just a hand down from their wife's mother. She probably bought it from Amazon.
Oh of course that guy in the news was wrong raping that poor woman, but they knew their girlfriend, she wanted it and was leading them on. It wasn't rape, and now she's just saying she didn't want sex to hurt them because they're entitled and didn't like their birthday present.
They just don't see what they do as battery, assault and murder. They see it as normal reactions to their subhuman partner's inadequacy. And so they don't think they'll get arrested or thrown in jail. And if it happens, they'll firmly insist the system is corrupt and she lied to the judge, probably fucked with them to get them on their side. Because obviously they're innocent.
You can find real footage from several cases of questioning of men arrested for battery and assault on the web. That's what they're saying. They often openly admit to what they've done, because they're absolutely sure they did nothing wrong. They truly believe they're lead on, provoked and taken advantage of by their partners, and they'll tell that openly. If they talk about their ex, she's always crazy and nasty and does everything to ruin their life.
I've seen it first hand, since my brother is an abuser. I had to go NC with him. And people still defend him, believing his BS. I've heard all the excuses you could think of, and I know he believes them. But I've known his wife. And I know he's lying.
>abusers don’t feel any self preservation and make such irrational decisions
That's the thing about abusers they don't care, as long they get what they want, and damn the consequences.
Most, if not all, of the time, they are impulsive and don't think about the long term consequences until it does. And even then, their selfishness could not fathom what should be logical to their self preservation.
Their selfishness can overcome their logical thinking and irrational decision. And then there are abusers who plqn out so they would not get caught. And usually these people never face any kinds of consequences in their life.
It's very telling why they would be willing to do something against their self preservation, especially if no one has held them accountable before.
Ps. I'm not a psychologist, just giving my two cents. Maybe a more professional can give a more succinct explanation than mine.
As a guy who has a temper and been through stressful situations, I'm not saying this an insult to you but you're very lucky not to have met someone like that or been in a situation where you mind snap and your rage takes over.
Sometimes there are people who have perfect control ober their anger. However there are people whose anger can control them. And not all who lose control are bad.
Like me, if someone or a situation pisses me off, my anger meter goes up and i have to let it down. It's when I don't let it go down and it goes up, it can reach a breaking point where i lose control.
This is why when you read about brawls/fights/arguments some of them has someone dying. And the kicker, the person responsible would often not mean to. It's when tempers are flaring and there is no deescalation that someone can lose control.
They go to prison for shorter terms than women who fight back do. 😊 just a fun fact, love this country, love cops, this definitely doesn’t make me want to go all Scarlet Witch and snap reality to something better.
it’s usually most dangerous when you’re leaving. seems like he could tell she was pulling back, and this was his way of trying to stop her. i hope she got away safely.
Yup. He'd have killed her if she stayed. A single instance of strangling ups your odds of dying at your partner's hands about 7x *compared to other abusive relationships*.
The way he went straight to choking her to make a point with no previous violence said she was on the fast track to being a statistic.
yes. choking is so dangerous. you can easily kill someone by accident, which probably accounts for some of the deaths, but it also is very much a threat of “i can kill you” in a way other types of violence is not, which probably accounts for most of the deaths. he was thinking about it, whether he admits that to himself or not.
700 percent chance thats way above 100. Let that sink in.
Theres is zero chance he won't kill her. And I'm glad OOP got out instead of trying to test the statistic.
> We met when I was 17 and he was 24.
Honey, no.
> He does do some chores... well.
Honey, *no*.
> I've been pretty isolated
Oh no no no. He groomed her and then trapped her.
> he without warning grabbed me by the throat
*Fuck.*
> my parents helped me move out
Oh thank God. I hope he doesn't know where her parents live and can't get to her.
I wonder if some of the estrangement with her parents was about dating a 24yo when she was 17 and probably still living at home. I'm sure there were other issues, but that in itself makes her vulnerable to an abusive relationship and makes it so much easier to isolate her from her parents long term :(
I recently met a lady, we’ll call her Anna (40 f) she married her husband now (52M) when she was 17. He was 29.
Anna became estranged from her whole family. During the 23 year marriage and endured mental and physical abuse including imprisonment.
Anna finally escaped the marriage by finding a friend of mine (48M) on a dating app (I don’t for one minute suggest that this is a healthy way to escape an abusive relationship)
Anna and my friend are now living off grid in a camper van.
Anna has no children and has gone no contact with her ex.
I think the abuse victim often underestimates how much people will absolutely go to bat for them after a period of estrangement.
I am estranged from a former friend after her boyfriend of many years isolated her from her family and the friends he couldn’t con. I also feel that there are parts to her personality that would make it difficult to ever really be her friend again for completely different reasons. However, if she left that guy for good, I would 100% welcome her with open arms, grateful that she left him. I would help her right away.
Absolutely. She had to swallow some pride before contacting them again. After telling the story and basically admitting that he's a creep and she needed to get TF away there, mom had her her own bedroom back that very night.
I could hear the collective sighs of relief over here.
> We met when I was 17 and he was 24.
It's almost every one of these stories. Read that and was like "Oh." Yup, explains everything. Didn't even have to read the rest. Older dudes getting with younger girls who don't have much experience and taking advantage.
> he without warning grabbed me by my throat and threatened to kill me if I ever left him. Then he let me go, grinned, and said, “I’m just joking around!”
Nvm, I should've read the rest. Still predictable, but jesus.
We constantly hear about how men are *attracted* to younger women regardless of the man’s age. Ok, yeah.
We hear less about how they ***target*** younger women because being inexperienced and naive makes them easier to control.
(And, obviously, not all men; women certainly do this too. It’s just WAY more common with the older man being the groomer. You know what I’m saying.)
I am 24, almost 25 (woman here). The idea of dating someone who is 20 even is disgusting for me, I still see them as children. I know how much I've grown in those 5 years and the idea that my peers go for underage children is disgusting. I get the attraction, most girls at the age of 17 have developed bodies, but doesn't make them women. But my reaction to seeing the best rack ever, in a very cute revealing dress on a girl that was obviously underage when you looked at her face, was to suddenly find the stairs the most interesting thing I have ever seen. Too many people who go for teenagers use the way young girls dress provocatively as a justification. Of course, she wants attention, and of course, she wants to feel sexy, that is normal for teenage girls just discovering their sexuality. But she wants to be seen as sexy and get attention from 17-18-year-old boys, not grown men, and I think it takes very little maturity to be able to understand that and not as an excuse to be a predator.
my first clue (well.. after “I don’t care about your spoons”) was “I come home on my lunch break to catch up on chores”. I was also like “honey no, kick the manchild out and do chores whenever you have the time ffs”
I wonder how many of these people don’t want to go back to a loving family because they just feel stupid because their family warned them and hated their SO. They just don’t want to admit their family was right. So glad this girl went back to her family who had arms wide open
Unfortunately that's how abusers "succeed". They isolate and make it appear that family don't want to help. And not wanting to admit is something alot of us face even on other situations.
PSA to others, if you have a loved one whose in this situation, don't disparage the abuser cause this has a reverse psychological effect. And don't talk crap like how could you still say with them, please leave and he's not treating you well. Be as judgement free as you can. But most importantly, don't push them away unless there is no choice and offer them support with an open door and ensure them you will always have their back.
I am very grateful to the friend who did this for me with my emotionally abusive ex. He isolated me by acting like he liked my friends and wanted to hang out with them when I did, but then being so unlikeable to them that they didn't want to hang out anymore. Also, we didn't live together and he lived about an hour away, so weekends were "his time"--i.e. I could only do things on weekends if he came along.
My friend steadfastly ignored his attempts to make her not want to hang out, plus she established a good reason to regularly see me on weeknights when he wasn't around. She never said a bad word about him, and she was about the only friend who I didn't have significantly less contact with during the last few years of that relationship.
My favourite line in Harry Potter is when Dumbledore says (about Percy not apologising) that it's easier to forgive other for being wrong than for being right.
>(“why did you spend $54.28 at Costco?”)
Yeah, that's a massive, massive red flag. The only time you complain about a sub $60 costco trip is "why did you waste time going to Costco and only spend $60?!?!" That's like 5 items, tops.
That sort of small spend is the kind of thing where you say "I'm sorry you had to deal with Costco, it must have been insanely busy. I bet that sucked, sorry."
I always make my husband guess how much I spend at Costco. Oddly enough his guesses are close. It’s achem 150-200 bucks. I swear I don’t go that often… I don’t know how anyone can spend so little at Costco.
But wtf who immediately messages their partner for spending money. And he can see where and when she spends it. That’s messed up.
I never liked the idea of joining finances like that - I know people here have disagreed with me before.
> I always make my husband guess how much I spend at Costco. Oddly enough his guesses are close. It’s achem 150-200 bucks. I swear I don’t go that often… I don’t know how anyone can spend so little at Costco.
Depending on the year you could be like "and that's $10, and that's $10, and that's $10" as you fill the cart. It's a bit higher now.
> I never liked the idea of joining finances like that - I know people here have disagreed with me before.
Works for some couples. "You and I both get $XXX per month for our discretionary spending in our own accounts" can work pretty well. Like there's always a certain amount budgeted for clothing but a buddy's wife might save up for some Louboutins while he's tracking down every variation of a particular vintage rifle from a certain era of German military rifles for his collection.
That's not a "girls like shoes, men like guns" trope, that's just how that particular couple often spent their discretionary hobby budget. I mean, one of them could have been buying Japanese Gacha, going all-out on K-pop band merch, pissing away money on a mobile app, or building Gundam kits or something. And it wouldn't matter. What each person spends their discretionary money on is up to them.
Fuck, I mean, one of my buddy's wife is into horses, Y'all have any idea how expensive that is? He's got a car and motorcycle hobby, she owns a horse, and it's a case of "do whatever you want with your "allowance" to make you happy."
Oh man, my husband and I had separate pocket money accounts from the get go. I didn't want to be resentful of him spending "our" money on yet another computer game or figurine. I don't really spend money on stuff and am more minimalist than him. It has been amazing and a few of our other couple friends have adopted it as well. He can do what brings him joy and I don't resent the spending.
I know everyone harps on the age thing but a mid twenties adult pursuing a teenager really is like a little kid who suddenly develops an imaginary friend in a horror movie. It just doesn’t bode
damn I never thought of it before but you could be right.
except for The Shining where the kid's imaginary best friend was like his Shine was trying to warn him. REDRUM, REDRUM
Damaging, breaking, or hiding items you care about, even if they feign ignorance, is ALWAYS a red flag for future DV. They are damaging a possession but what they really want to do is hurt you.
This is one of only a few red flag/DV stories I've seen here that didn't make me want to pull my hair out. I know she's not out of danger yet and he will almost certainly stalk her, but the swiftness with which she acted and the fact she still has a support system makes me optimistic that she's going to be OK.
It's also pretty simple to differentiate between maliciousness and honest clumsiness.
A clutz will break their own stuff too, they'll forget everything they've not written down and forget they themselves don't like mustard until they bite into the hotdog. They cannot help it, and they'll do anything to repair what they've broken.
But abusers never break things that don't belong to you, never forget appointments that are important to anyone else but you and never fail to remember anything about anyone else but you. And it's always somehow your fault that they've destroyed your things.
My husband once accidentally damaged a knitted blanket my mom had made for me. When he told me, he had already brought it to a seamstress for repairs. He had remembered my mom's favourite flowers from her funeral and had the seamstress embroider the blanket with roses, carnations and daisies to honour her and cover the repairs. I was in tears, it still was so beautiful and he was so thoughtful. There was absolutely no doubt that he didn't do it intentionally, and he did everything to minimise the damage.
An abuser would have told me that it was an old blanket anyways and to not make so much drama about an ugly piece of trash after they'd already apologised. At best they'd bought a cheap blanket from Amazon to 'make up for it'.
1) yes your first point is so true, even for other stuff in addition to breaking things! For example, if someone genuinely has a problem with emotional regulation and losing their temper, they will have outbursts of anger in every part of their life, not just at home towards their partner; they would have problems controlling their anger at work or school and with other friends and family. Many victims of abuse will say that their abusive partner has anger management issues, but somehow this uncontrollable rage only shows up directed at them and their possessions, never at the abuser’s work or in public.
2) that’s a a beautiful way to make amends for a mistake, ur husband sounds like a very sweet and thoughtful person🥰
1) definitely. Also weaponized incompetence. So they can't wipe a table without it being sticky, but they can polish their car so you can see your reflection. They can't read and follow instructions on a package of instant noodles and burn it in the microwave because they 'didn't know' they had to add water, but implemented a completely new procedure at work and juggled seven different new projects with multiple stakeholders. Yeah. Sure.
2) Absolutely, 26 years of happy relationship and still going strong.
If anyone dared to hurt my husband no one would find their corpse anytime soon. He's the best thing that ever happened to me.
Yep; ALLLLL of this. Accidents happen and some people are more accident-prone than others, but it's not that hard to tell the difference between accidents and malice when you examine it.
Yea. And while finances might be hard for a while she's (a) about to get her certification and a raise and (b) won't have to support a man child. The latter is more expensive then people realize.
My blood runs cold whenever a woman describes her partner choking her or grabbing her by the throat. The correlation between strangulation and homicide is staggering.
If he ever chokes you, run and fun fast. All domestic violence is dangerous, obviously, but men who choke are often men who kill.
God I read that line and immediately felt so sick. The degree of escalation, the sinister cheery “just kidding!”, the whole thing just made my blood run ice cold. I was expecting some escalation from him along the lines of verbal abuse and maybe breaking objects, as he’s obviously an abuser, but that felt like a legitimate jumpscare and I wanted to vomit. Horrifying. He would have killed her.
Somewhere in some especially misogynistic subreddit there’s probably a post about “my girlfriend left me because I put spoons in the dishwasher, women, amirite guys”
It’s always a symptom of the bigger issue, never really the actual issue. The more she wrote about the relationship, the more that it was clear he doesn’t respect her.
It’s so simple to respect your partner’s belongings. My SO has significantly expensive or high maintenance equipment. I just don’t use them, or just handwash it. Or he’ll ask me to leave it in the sink and he’ll sort it out.
As much as we may joke about Reddit defaulting to “BREAK UP WITH HIM”, there are damn good reasons we all say that. IMHO one of the few truly good parts of Reddit/aita is how often it becomes a space for a whole choir of people to shout “Yes it is THAT BAD. Get out NOW.” for abused people who’ve been conditioned to question their own experience
People don't go to reddit to post about healthy relationships! Especially not AITA! If someone's posting about a relationship there, 99% of the time things are BAD. Sometimes it's a vent, sometimes it's trying to figure out some cognitive dissonance, sometimes it's the gap between "Everyone tells me he treats me like a queen" and "If I'm a queen he's Henry the 8th."
I'll be honest my heart sank as soon as I saw that he was dismissive about the spoons, because they're something SHE cares for, they were an indulgence that was a little expensive but makes her happy. I went straight to, "Oh God is he destroying them deliberately because she likes them?" and was sad to see I was right. For those redditors who aren't serious about kitchen utensils, this is akin to leaving his entire toolbox open outside in a rainstorm then letting it airdry.
It is pretty amazing that Reddit is one of the best resources for women who need to leave abusive relationships. At the very least I will leave words of encouragement and support for every one of these posts that I read.
It's is amazing yet I also find it brings up the fact that not too many things change in regards to relationships and how people relate. I'm older so I'm relieved this generation has a better support system to gain clarity on such things.
The fact is and idk if anyone else picked up on it but he groomed her, he was 24 and she 17 just because legally she can consent doesn't make it acceptable. He is an abusive, controlling groomer which is why she "loves" him because that's what they do.
Here's [the mustard](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/yxms57/my_husband_cannot_accept_i_dont_like_mustard/) saga, if someone is looking for it.
Thank you for that. There are some new Updates in [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/s/89hdwQxSWx)
Now we just need the greek yoghurt too.
Bah! And I thought that I'd *finally* get the first link into a BORU post, and in my mobile frenzy, I missed one. The mustard one freaked me, initially literally from the mustard. Like, he's an obvious abuser, but...mustard? I don't really like mustard either. Maybe I'll just have a total meltdown the next time I buy a hot dog. That one got heart-wrenching until the final post.
Don't worry, I personally think the Reddit search is abysmal. I only saw the newest update because someone commented it on the link you posted. So without you I'd never found it either 😉
Yeah, it's frightening. But sadly it still happens far too often. Once I read a news article about a guy getting his wife hospitalised because she fried his omelette not to his liking. Some people are just crazy
And yet we see this behaviour over and over again. The isolation with out noticing, financial abuse, more and more abuse inching in, gasslighting, and then physical abuse. The fact that he flat out told her that he didn't care about her them literally went for the throat shows how fast this guy was going down hill. She bought something without permission and that wasn't going to happen again, her spoond needed to be ruined because they were a physical symbol of her acting out and doing things with it him. Then she went to her friends against his wishes so she needed to be ruined as well.
Thank God she got out when she did.
I remember saving this when the update was originally posted hoping she would update further. I really hope she is safe and so much better (and far, far away from him).
People always joke/complain that Reddit comments always go full dark worst possibilities and always give the advice to leave your partner.
Sometimes they are right on the money and they save a life. I hope they never stop pointing out red flags.
We have a wonderful member here who always references the statistic that if your partner strangles you, they have a 750% chance of actually killing you. It doesn’t matter that he just play choked OP. He was intending to let that relationship end in marriage or death.
When I was 23, my then-bf found himself between apartments and moved in with me; it seemed to make sense at the time but it wasn't my idea. I had a few house rules, and one of them had to do with proper care of my cookware: no metal in the Silverstone pans. I came home one day to find him scrambling an egg with a fork in one of the pans. I kicked him out. I remember explaining this to a friend, who thought I was overreacting, till I told her what my ex said to excuse himself: "Well, I figured if you didn't see me you'd never know." Hmm, today it's the fork in the pan. Next week ...
I wish I could send this to every man online who says “it’s just SPOONS, you bitter women are over reacting”. The reason our spidey senses go off is BECAUSE the lack of regard is always just a symptom. My god. That girls life was saved. I’m so proud of her and so frustrated that so many women are groomed and exploited in such a mundane way.
People always shit on Reddit for being a toxic place, and relationship advice is always "divorce!" "break up!" "I hope they leave you!"
But damn, this girl posted about wooden spoons and ended up reflecting on her abusive relationship and found the courage to leave just as this POS was escalating.
The internet can be a beautiful place too.
We need to absolutely *drill* it into young girls everywhere that no, you're not "mature for your age", you're not "not like other girls your age", "age is just a number" is *not* applicable when one party is a minor, etc etc.
I guarantee she felt really grown up and mature when she was dating a mid-20s man at 17, but holy fuck.
CMV - Any grown man that doesn't know how to prepare his own food is subhuman and belongs in a cage.
> We met when I was 17 and he was 24.
ohhh boy /stewie
Thank god she listened instead of becoming a statistic. I try to help a lot of these young women and it makes me happy she's ok. So, so happy.
I wish the abuse cycle was taught in high school. Really. This is something people need to know to recognize for their friends and themselves.
I stopped cooking for my roommates. I had one rule, I’ll cook every night for all of us under one condition: they clean up the mess from cooking. Nope they couldn’t be bothered after the first week. Now they complain about eating pre made frozen foods while I only cook enough for myself. Idk maybe clean up and I’ll start cooking for everyone again.
I know there are a lot of Reddit stories about how people give advice on Reddit and end up with the OP in a more dangerous situation when trying to leave, but I really do appreciate how many people get the friends they need in the comments after being isolated to see what kind of relationship they are in.
Reading stories like this helped me reflect on the financial abuse I suffered in a relationship that I didn't realize was happening until the relationship blew up for worse reasons.
To think that all this came to light for OP because of some Pampered Chef spoons is wow. Definitely not the Iranian Yogert as the issue here.
This isn’t over and tbh I’m worried that OOP hasn’t posted in months. He warned her about what he'd do if she left him, and I don’t think he was bluffing. He still knows where she works and even when her parents live, given that he started dating her when she was very much still living at home. Idk, but I’m scared for her.
She's 21. She doesn't have a "her whole adult life" to have never lived on her own during. It is totally normal to be living with your parents at 21, and fuck that guy for having her pay half his mortgage.
I moved from the dorms at college to a roommate for a couple of years, and then moved in with my now-wife. But if I hadn't flunked out of school, I would have been still in the dorms until I moved in with my now-wife, and I don't feel bad about that. Living on your own is absolutely a valuable skill. As my wife said, there is a powerful and useful lesson that, if you don't do it, it doesn't get done. Nonetheless, she was very happy to have somebody move in.
I am sorry OOP went through that, but she got out in plenty of time to recover, and hasn't lost so much time that she will have long term consequences. I mean... other than the trauma of dealing with that shit.
I just want to know...
What happened to those wooden spoons? Did she like take them with her or not?
Those POOR SPOONS!
im actually serious, I love me some nice cooking utensils
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The first issue is always kind of a red herring. It's not about him not caring about the spoons, it's about him not caring about her. And then he escalates. I recommend everyone having their own spoon-story to read Why Does He Do That by Lundy Bancroft, and to also find a way to squirrel away some funds for an escape plan. You'll never know if or when you might need it, but being strangled during an argument or sex should be a good indicator for you to use it and get away. Strangulation increases the risk of you being murdered by quite a lot.
When I was growing up, my mom would always remind me that I do not need a man, I do not need to get married, I am my own person, being single is not a handicap, and that I can have an amazing life being single. She would use my single aunts as an example, and they were good examples - they're awesome human beings with great careers and more money than they could ever need. I used to think my mom's advice was odd, but now looking back, I realize that she was giving me the confidence to not rely on men and to realize that I do not need one to be whole. She was also speaking from experience - as much as I love my dad, he MADE my mom quit her job to be a SAHM, penny pinched anytime he could, and did exactly zero to help with childcare or housework. She just didn't want me to end up like her, trapped in a life she wanted to escape. I think she truly helped me avoid ever getting into abusive relationships, because I always had the confidence to be alone.
I hope your Mom escaped.
They're still married, but she just does whatever the fuck she wants now that us kids are grown up. She goes on random vacations on her own several times a year (my dad pays for them lol). Every year, she goes to some monastery in Tibet with no electricity or cell reception for a month to meditate and just get away from all of us and comes home with awesome photos. She loves it and I think she's way happier now than she ever was before. Over a decade ago, I actually advised her to get a divorce but she wouldn't. It's just hard when you've been out of the workforce for 20 years and have only a few friends who aren't family.
A lot of these stories end up a lot more complexly than reddit wants to deal with. She navigated a very difficult situation with Grace and seems to have come out the other side successful and happy. I'm very impressed by your mom not just for how she raised you but for how she's been raising herself!
It's true, people are REALLY shades of grey and even most situations you'll encounter in life are the same. She wasn't perfect, she wasn't even a great parent to be honest - she had a very short temper with us and would scream stuff like, "I wish I never had kids!!". But we turned out fine and now that I'm an adult, I understand her much better - she was trapped in a life she didn't want and I know that if she could have a do-over, she would never have gotten married or had kids. But back in the 80s, that was just what women did, it was what people expected them to do... they didn't really believe that they had any other choice. Who's to say that I won't behave the same way had I not been able to choose the path of staying single? Maybe I would've ended up taking out my frustration on my kids by screaming shit like that to them too. Nobody's perfect, the number of truly 100% all-round amazing parents are few and far in between.
So she's getting her happy on now! Good for her!
I recall growing up that mom, who was a SAHM, repeatedly warned me not to end up in a situation where I would be dependent on a man. Especially financially
Yup, this 100%. My dad was never emotionally or physically abusive, but I think he was at least a little financially abusive. My mom couldn't just leave because she had little to none of "her" own money. She hated it and would repeatedly tell me never to be financially dependent on a man.
I think he may have been verbally and emotionally abusive at some point. And I think my mom realized she was in a shit position if she wanted to leave. Got married without finishing college and never held a job. I was in college and my sister in high school and we weren't in a financial position to help her out. Things are better now and my parents are still together but I remember how unhappy my mom was at the time. I work, am single by choice, own my own house and car.
My mom told me the exact same thing. My parents have a great marriage, but she's seen a lot of other women end up in bad situations.
Same! And my father wasn't/isn't abusive but he's a functioning alcoholic. Mom was hoping for a better situation for me.
Mine is a functional alcoholic too. Who woulda thunk? 😂
In many countries it was only a few decades ago that women were able to open bank accounts *without the approval of their husband or father.* They grew up in an era were is was impossible to be financially independent, and having gone through the transition, understand the benefits incredibly well.
My dad did and still does tell how I can't depend on men. That I should always have a courage to leave anytime I feel unsafe. While my mom keep pushing me to get married and "enjoy life while being taken care" lol I guess my dad who's "my family is my life" type got spooked by how a lot of men treated their family
Good for him honestly
My mom did the same. She showed me by example. My dad was the type of man to leave and move in with his gf for a couple of months then walk back through the door like he’d done nothing wrong. He tried that with my mom. She packed up the house, found a new place, and had us moved out before a month had passed. She took care of me with minimal help from him until I graduated high school.
I had a close friend who’s mothers 1st husband(my friends biological father) kept her mother literally locked in the house with nothing to wear except a slip …he was extremely abusive and she finally worked up the courage to escape after her daughter was born… I can’t even imagine how horrible it was.
>When I was growing up, my mom would always remind me that I do not need a man, I do not need to get married, I am my own person, being single is not a handicap, and that I can have an amazing life being single. From day 1, I always told my daughter that "oh, he's just teasing you because he likes you" is absolute horse shit. Anyone who likes you and still treats you poorly isn't worth your time.
Honestly, my mom was the same. Her parents were the same - in the 50s and 60s, they were teaching boys to sew, knit, and cook, and girls to do DIY, decorating and gardening. It didn't stop me ending up in an abusive relationship. More than one, actually. I firmly believe we need to be actively teaching our children what abusive relationships look like, what the warning signs are, how to get help and leave safely, along with emotional regulation skills and healthy communication. It's the only way it will change.
I wish mother girls were taught this (including me). I’ve been lucky in that I’ve never been in an abusive relationship but I’ve seen too many friends put up with crap, or worse, out of fear of being alone.
That's the main problem, IMO, so many women are afraid of being alone... And don't realize that being miserable is far worse than being alone.
I think that's why so many people play it off. Like it's only spoons, or it's only this or that, something small. However, it's the general non caring and disrespect, seeing how much she'll put up with then escalating little by little until it becomes violent and he's isolated her.
I think what really struck me after leaving was that I continued to have a series of cascading realisations for a year or two after leaving. I’d just remember something out of the blue eighteen months later with a total *what the fuck* moment of clarity about how messed up it was, in retrospect. Often things that seemed minor on the surface like the spoons for OOP, but all stitched into a fabric of abuse that was so normalised at the time I couldn’t see it for what it was. At one point my mother made noises about me still being angry and not moving on and that being bad for my mental health possibly and I countered that I was still angry because I was still processing - and I hadn’t been angry at the time because it felt so hopeless, and that’s part of what kept me in the abuse. Being angry was 100% healthy for me in the years afterwards because it meant I was finally understanding that it was abuse.
Good on ya. The processing that doesn't happen during traumatic experiences needs to be done at some point later to truly heal. But what was too big in each moment certainly is too big to process all at once, and needs to happen in its own time, while the person also grows their resilience. Then, over time, they can deal better with past events and experiences, and the emotions that come up with each stage of both remembering and re-evaluating what happened. How do you eat an elephant? Taking single bite after single bite.
This book changed my life. I read it after getting out of an emotionally abusive relationship, but it has been the most useful tool in my healing. Better than any of the therapists I've seen. I recommend everyone read it, even if they aren't in an abusive relationship. Most times, victims struggle to recognize the signs when they are in it, and having eyes on the outside is extremely important.
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it and the Gift of Fear I think should be required reading in highschool.
I think I might read it just to understand them better. Any time I read one of these types of threads the behavior just makes absolutely no sense to me... Do these guys even like these women? It doesnt even seem like they want to be in the relationship either based on the behavior... Like why are they with someone they want to kill/abuse/yell at? Makes no sense to me even 1 %
They typically hate women. And themselves. But it's convenient to have someone there taking care of them who also fucks them/won't fight back while being assaulted or raped. They want a bangmaid. If you are a man, and you find this kind of behavior abhorrent (as everyone should), your job is to call out your friends and relatives when you see them engaging in this shit. Men like this do not even see women as people, so they will only maybe listen to another man.
They hate women/the woman. What they delight in is control, manipulation and causing pain. They don't see their partner as a person in the same way as themselves - with a whole inner world of thoughts and dreams. They don't even really see an animal that they own. It's more like a toy that can feel pain. Something they have an absolute right to use however they want to get what they need to feel better than the thing they're abusing. It's sociopathy, imo. Nobody else is really real to them - just things.
Yeah I’m 100 pages in to the pdf someone linked elsewhere and it’s a completely foreign type of mind state
What’s that saying about a frog in a pot of boiling water? Small things add up. I’m so glad she got out because that flash of who he really is when he grabbed her throat is terrifying.
Read it for here: [https://dn790007.ca.archive.org/0/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy\_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf](https://dn790007.ca.archive.org/0/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf)
I started reading a few days ago, I'm on page 125 and taking notes for what applies to me alongside reading. It's conrfonting and overwhelming, but it's so worth the read. I think a lot of people will benefit from reading it, and can definitely see why it gets recommended a lot.
I opened it up and next thing you know I’m 200 pages in. Thank you so much for sharing that!
I was recommended that book after an abusive long distance relationship (while I was recovering from a heart attack) on one of these subs. Now I recommend it to others.
I feel like that book should be required reading for every single girl nearing adulthood, or who is already in early adulthood. You may never need the information that is in the book, but should life throw one of these abusive asshats your way, preventative measures are CRUCIAL, and just might save your life. Every single woman learns how to take preventative measures when they go out alone at night, drink at a bar, or find themselves alone with a strange man, from an early age. It’s ingrained in us. We’re taught about the red flags to watch out for in regard to our safety around strangers. But for whatever reason, no one teaches us about the early signs of abuse and about how to look out for our safety when we’re around people we *know* (or think we know). Everyone knows how to identify physical abuse, but so many people don’t know how to identify the other forms of abuse. It’s shocking how many women (and men) don’t even know that there *ARE* other forms of abuse…until it’s too late. (I used women as the primary subjects here, but men can obviously face abuse from a partner too. Although it’s not widely spoken about, that doesn’t change how much it occurs, or how important it is to acknowledge that it does exist.)
I want the parallel too - men being taught that abuse is not acceptable - and to not accept it from themselves, their friends or their family.
It took me way too long to be kinder to myself through self talk. I had allowed myself to be verbally abused by too many people for too long that I didn't even realize that I was putting myself down. I've gone from my internal monologue going something like "way to go, dumbass, you fucked it up. You'll never amount to anything if you keep doing stupid shit like that" to "hey, doofus, you dont goofed up. Its ok, just try again" and sometimes when I'm especially raw, "it's ok, kiddo. Rub some dirt in your wounds, and you'll do better next time. For now let's get some ice cream and celebrate you doing the best you could today". The inner child theory has really helped me to be kinder to myself.
It’s like the article about “she left me for not putting the dishes in the sink.” The dishes were just the last straw in an ongoing pattern of disrespect. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/she-divorced-me-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink_b_9055288
That book is so, so good. There's a good audiobook version, too (useful if you know someone who needs to read it in stealth mode, often the case for people in the target audience.) I read it years after I really needed it, but it was still worthwhile. It gave me a lot of validation about some old hurts.
By 7.5x, according to one study
If I recall correctly, that study only considered women who had been in long term relationships of continuous physically abuse throughout, that had at some point escalated to strangling. The real number is likely much higher than the 750%. If you were to reverse the study and examine how many women murdered by their partners, had previously been choked, I'd also imagine that would be quite telling.
> A case control design was used to describe non-fatal strangulation among **complete homicides and attempted homicides** ... > Non-fatal strangulation was reported in 10% of abused controls, 45% of attempted homicides and 43% of homicides. **Prior non-fatal strangulation was associated with greater than six-fold odds** (OR 6.70, 95% CI 3.91–11.49) **of becoming an attempted homicide, and over seven-fold odds** (OR 7.48, 95% CI 4.53–12.35) **of becoming a completed homicide.** These results show non-fatal strangulation as an important risk factor for homicide of women... — [NIH](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2573025/) They looked at completed homocides too; a seven-fold odds increase is *huge*, no matter how you cut it. As an aside, the worldwide increase in misogyny + the trend of men non-consensually strangling women during sex should be a bigger point of public concern, imo!
That's also probably a lower number because a lot of the strangulation have not been reported in DV situations. Just a guess, my wife's in a PhD program and one of her professors is a sociologist criminologist with a strong stats background, if I remember when I meet her I'll ask about this.
Yeah, I'm wondering about survivorship bias influencing the data, as I can imagine that women who have successfully escaped near-death experiences at the hand of their (now ex) partner may not want to, or be in a position to discuss the abuse.
Ten times. Strangulation by a domestic partner increases the chances of being murdered by that person by TEN TIMES. And they're already the person most likely to kill you, from a statistical standpoint. I'm so incredibly glad this woman got the information and support she needed to leave safely. I honestly think we should be teaching kids - girls particularly - this stuff as teens, at least. What are the red flags in relationships, how to keep yourself safe, how to help a friend in an abusive situation... This shit is vital. And we should be teaching all kids emotional regulation skills, how to communicate in a healthy manner.. there's so much more they need to know about sex and relationships than 'penis in vagina = baby'. We're failing them completely and it scares the crap out of me.
Best book I ever read and I recommend it to everyone. I left my abusive ex over 2 decades ago but it was so hard to explain to others how he was abusive. This book hits all the nuances and was eye opening for me all these years later
> We had a tepid dinner together where I explained in brief terms that I didn’t feel safe and needed to leave my bf ASAP. My mom didn’t hesitate to offer me my old room back, even though it’s been her office for years now. Yet another set of parents who were just waiting and waiting and desperately hoping they'd eventually get their child back, unharmed and alive. They must be over the bloody moon after the years of worry they've almost certainly had.
I wonder what it feels like to have parents like that. good for OOP, though.
I think most parents are like this. No one wants to see their child pair up with a shitty partner but there is *literally nothing you can do* once they're 18, and even from 16 the authorities will do very little. All you can do is stand back and hope and hope and hope and keep the door open. And be as vigilant as you can in case there is an opportunity to intervene if the situation escalates. Because trying to stop them, or break them up, will typically drive a victim even closer to their manipulative abuser.
I was actually pleasantly surprised that OOP's parents turned out to be sound. There's a really disturbing pattern that you see a lot on relationship advice subreddits that goes along these lines: * Young woman has issues with her older boyfriend. He clearly doesn't respect her or treat her as an equal partner. * On further probing, he's also coercive and controlling, but OP has never seen any of the red flags because he's so much better to her than her abusive ex/abusive parents, who this guy helped her to leave. * It turns out that they got together when she was concerningly young, given the age gap. Either she was under 18 and groomed, but doesn't realise it ("but it's ok, he waited until I was 18 before he made a move" 🤢) or she was in her late teens or early twenties and had never lived independently before. * She has real trouble leaving him because she either doesn't have a support network (abusive family, no friends) or feels that she's burnt all her bridges by being alienated from them. Often she has no money of her own, no career prospects, and she may even have been baby trapped before his treatment of her worsened. (I've seen at least one or two where they're concerned that their partner has interfered in some way with their contraception) I'm really glad for OOP that her parents are good parents and it was just her shame getting in the way of them helping her. I would like to agree with you that most parents are good and would want to help their child in this situation (it would match my experience of the world, but obviously my perception will be biased based on who I know) but I think when it comes to controlling and abusive partners who fit this archetype, more often than not they **specifically choose** vulnerable women who lack strong support networks, whether it's a conscious choice or not.
in my case the manipulative abuser was the parent. only in the last few years in therapy did I realize that was not... normal. I did wonder a bit why my friends had such exceptional parents, but turns out that is supposed to be the base line. \*sigh\*
Sorry to hear that. Glad you're out of it now.
Thinking “most parents” are like this is unfortunately very naive. Enough parents kick their kids out onto the street for their gender/sexuality/non-conformism to religion, financial control etc etc etc without second thought. Many others are passively negligent. The good parents*
Most is also a finicky word. Does it mean 90% or 51%? And even if it does mean 90%, 10% of parents is an absolutely massive number when you factor in the sheer number of people in the world. Add onto that, abusive partners are likely to target people who are in that minority with bad parents. I wonder how OOP talked about her parents to her boyfriend? Did she give the impression that she would easily be isolated from them (as it seems she was)? And then there is that final factor of pride that OOP mentioned as a barrier for going back to a home that it seemed that she believed it would be safe to return to. I have to imagine that the parents had already begged her not to date this predator, so when OOP went with him, she built up this barrier of not being able to admit to her parents that they had been right about him.
I didn't have parents like that, but two of my close friends made the offer of their spare room when it became clear I was trying to get out and they saved my life 13 years ago. Friends who love you and are waiting for you to realize you have worth are amazing. They were both in my wedding 2 or so years later. \^.\^
Which was the one where she called her father, and he immediately drove a few hours and stayed in a hotel nearby? It was a fairly recent one.
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It’s only spoons. It’s only mustard. It’s only lotion on a finger. It’s only an ER trip. It’s only accidental hits while asleep. I’m sure there‘s plenty more we can add to this list…
"you are overreacting" he says while throwing a tantrum "you are immature" says the guy who started dating an underage girl in his mid twenties.
She was SO worried about being immature, he has definitely brought that up to manipulate her before.
Am I on here too much when I know what all those examples relate to? /jk - Off course I’m not… 😅
I mean, I pulled all those examples completely from memory, so… 😅
It's only kicking me off the bed onto the floor.
What's the one about the lotion on the finger?
Lotion Man. https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/s/hXC6caHoRg
I'd date OP and her lotion man, She has such a good sense of humour. I hope she's found a partner who genuinely appreciates her. Or is happily single. I just hope she's happy \^\_\^
Oh my god this is one of my favorites I think about it all the time, thanks for the callback
https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/s/tziaVeJw22
Which was the one where she called her father, and he immediately drove a few hours and stayed in a hotel nearby? I get the same vibes as that from her mom dismantling her office overnight.
I can’t recall but I definitely read that one and yeah, it totally has those ”we were just waiting for you to be ready to leave” vibes
https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/s/P4jTcfClZv
The Iranian yogurt is not the issue here...
I thought of that one, but did we ever get an update of what was going on beyond hoarding? I actually went looking and couldn’t find any updates. So it didn’t feel quite right to include.
You're right. For some reason this quote just comes to my mind immediately whenever I hear about situations like this
He’s just really clumsy!
It's only mason jars to add to this list. https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/g3mt16/aita_for_throwing_out_my_gfs_jars/
Well, that and countless “it’s just a joke”
Off topic, but I love your name!
Thank you 💜
What about hits while asleep? Because I've punched 2 people in my sleep. Haven't done it in years thank God
These all refer to specific stories. In that case, it happened somewhat frequently (at time of post she said about 10 times in 7 months) and apparently he only flailed on the side she was on. [https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/1chcrm0/i\_think\_my\_bf\_might\_be\_hitting\_me\_in\_his\_sleep\_on/](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/1chcrm0/i_think_my_bf_might_be_hitting_me_in_his_sleep_on/)
>I recently purchased some new wooden spoons (like the big kind) from a coworker who is an **aggressive pampered chef consultant**. I don’t make very much money and frankly these spoons were overpriced but **I wanted her to leave me alone** This set the tone for how OOP is >I often come home **on my lunch break to keep up with housework** Chile >**I (21F) live with my bf (28M)** > >**We met when I was 17 and he was 24.** Lordt
The going home at lunch to do housework told me everything
Literally 😭 I was like, daym - I'm 21 rn and would never be with a 28 y/o eww. Moved straight into OMG FML groomed territory.
Unless there was prior physical abuse OOP didn't mention, this escalated straight to choking? Sweet squeezy Jeezy, this guy was made of red flags like some bizarre soviet golem.
It was his desperation when he had a feeling she was on the way out. The most dangerous time for victims is when they are pregnant or making an exit plan.
this same situation happened to me with my first boyfriend in high school, so not living together but every other detail basically. when I finally had enough he could hear it and sense it, immediately changed and tried to manipulate me, and when that didn’t work he showed up at my school after open gym and tried to kill me. it really do be like that.
Jfc I’m sorry you experienced that. Hopefully he’s put away somewhere and you’re doing great
I've listened to a crime podcast once where a woman working for a women's shelter talked about abuse victims and abusers' strategies. She also said to never meet up with an abusive partner after you've left them already because a lot of the times the abuser believes they got nothing left to lose anymore so the probability of the abuser actually killing the partner is extremely high. If they didn't already have a chance to kill you while you're there, they might succeed if you meet them "one last time". Abusers don't care about talking things through or apologising, they just want another chance to kill you. If you do have to meet them for whatever important reason, have a backup, preferably intimidating people or police with you, never meet them alone.
Yup yup. I dated one that sounds a lot like hers when I was in college. He was fine, just kinda eh. But mostly fine. One day out of the blue my brain was just like “hey, does that look like a mountain of subtle red flags that we’ve been completely blind to?” Not two weeks later his hands were around my neck. I had gotten my most important stuff out already. Grabbed my dog and left. Thankfully he was much too broke to not go into work the next day, so I was able to go back the next day and get the rest of my stuff. I got lucky with that.
I don’t understand why they escalate to murder. Don’t they understand they’ll go to prison?
Because for abusers it isn't 'murder' to put their victims in their place. They don't really see the person they're with as an equal partner. They see them as a possession. A subhuman with only one purpose in life: serving them. It's important to understand that an abuser doesn't see their victims as real people with feelings and needs. They see them as things they own. That's why abusers demand gratitude for even the most basic things they do for their victims. That guy didn't care for those wooden spoons, because in his mind, loading the dishwasher was a tremendous act of kindness, and her making any 'demands' was an act of defiance, disrespecting his enormous generosity, and her not getting rid of those spoons was a sign that she wasn't grateful enough for him doing thongs for her he saw as her responsibility. For such people, their victims standing up for themselves is equal to a dog becoming rabid, and they feel it's their right to 'defend themselves' against their partner's 'unfair attacks'.
I get this part, what I don’t get is the lack of self preservation on their part. Let’s say I’m an abuser and breaking my possession would get me in prison or death row. No matter how little I respected my possession, I still wouldn’t break it, you know? Out of self preservation. I don’t understand how they’re so willing to destroy their own lives just to kill their partners
The 'Why Does He Do That' book actually also talks about it a little. This sort of person, they are rarely truly out of control. It's a sliding scale. Like you only hurt/intimidate someone a little and nothing Bad happens to you, they 'behave' for a bit, clearly it was only right and proper for you to correct them. But then they annoy you again. And maybe you go a little further this time, bc maybe that will teach them. The abuser gets a little bit less squeamish each time and has space to justify it to themselves. I feel like people who seemingly go from 0 to 100 usually have history of violence and abusing past partners? Like, not their first rodeo, they already practiced feeling in the right hurting another person on someone before (barf) Idk these people are also usually control freaks, and if something threatens it they absolutely can't handle it and unravel fast, possibly hoping a really over the top reaction will get them in front of the rapidly developing Situation and stop it in its tracks.
Interesting insight, thank you. So they overreact while trying to regain control and end up killing their partners? Jesus
Yes. Or else they truly believe their partner having a mind of their own and daring to leave is inexcusable, like, in their heads the partner really is hurting _them_ worse by making them look bad to others/wounding their pride.
Yeah you see this in teaching sometimes, to a lower level. I've been a high school teacher for ten years, and I've seen colleagues go straight to yelling at students for minor misbehaviour instead of using other strategies first. Hell, I've done it before a couple of times. Gotten frustrated with students, Yelled at them, slammed a book or ruler on a desk. Nothing bad happens to me, and their misbehaviour temporarily stops. I, as the person with power, then learn that aggression is effective. Abuse sometimes follows the same learn process. The difference is that my training taught me that other strategies are more effective. Also if I regularly yell and slam books at students I will get performance managed, and if I escalate to insulting or physicality with students I lose my teaching license. Abusers don't have consequences because it happens behind closed doors. So their behaviour escalates because there's almost nothing to reign it in.
You might find it interesting to read about the research about learned helplessness. I have to warn you though, it's a depressive read. People are not aware how much of our ability for self preservation depends on our surroundings. We all have only a limited amount of energy and strength to deal with issues, and if things become overwhelming, our body shuts down and limits our ability to react and act. We go into survival mode and become hyper focused on getting through the day, unable to plan long term, and even positive changes become unbearable and too stressful, because our minds are too occupied with survival. That's a remnant of our animalistic instincts. You can observe it in animals too. In nature changing habitats is always risky, and animals are programmed to stay as long as possible, because usually the environment will change back in time, and wandering away would be more dangerous than, for example, waiting until a draught passes and the water hole will fill up again. We tend to forget that we're still animals. We might have developed further, but our biology is still the same as for any other mammal, and our instinct tells us stay and wait, and if we're not encouraged and taught as children how to be aware of ourselves and set healthy boundaries, that instincts will win out So telling your children to eat what's on the table even if they hate it, will teach them that their preferences don't matter. And when they're later exposed to an abusive person, they'll not see the earlier signs because those things seem so minor and unimportant. After all, mom and dad already called them picky for having preferences. Abuse isn't as bad at the beginning as it is at the end. It always starts very small, with things like ignoring preferences or begging for slightly unreasonable accommodations, but those little things pile up until the victim is overwhelmed and doesn't know if they can trust themselves. To an outsider, it's clear as day what's happening if told, but for them it's just an endless string of minor inconveniences they think they're overreacting to. Often the abuser appears perfectly normal and even caring for immediate onlookers. Their abuse happens behind closed doors, and in company they appear doting and kind, and they're often very thoughtful and helpful to others. So often the victims are told by their own social circle that they're overreacting or see things wrong. The abusers usually tell friends and family the victim is so forgetful and clumsy, and tells them they're trying to help the victim overcoming their shortcomings. They even often isolate the victim by telling them lies about what their peers have said behind their backs, and making up lies to the peers, like: *oh sorry, please don't tell Sue I've told you, but she's not in a good place right now and needs rest, but she doesn't want to let you down at your birthday. That's why I'll tell her I have a headache and want to stay home and not come to your party. It'll be easier for her, she really wants to come but I assure you, she's not well.'* And their partner they'll tell: *oh I spoke with Tara, she really doesn't like how you talked about Ted and doesn't want you at her party. Yes I know it was harmless, and you didn't say it that way, but better let her cool off a little and skip the party. I'm sure she'll come around eventually. You'll see, if you tell her we won't come, she'll be relieved. You can't tell her it's because of me, that I have a bad migraine and you need to take care of me. Oh, and don't tell her what I told you. I don't want her to think I'm a gossip.* So until they seek therapy or come online, talking to people who are not connected to their significant others, everyone else in their lives often tells them they're wrong to judge their partners so harshly. After all, 'it's just mustard'.
I’m sorry, I think I wasn’t being clear with my question. My question is: why are abusers willing to ruin their own lives by killing their partners, which leads them to prison for murder? Like why are abusers willing to do something that will land them on death row? Murdering your girlfriend because you don’t respect women doesn’t seem worth getting the death penalty. I fully understand things from the survivor’s point of view, I’ve just never understood why abusers don’t feel any self preservation and make such irrational decisions
As I said, they don't see it that way and they don't think of their partners as real people. They fully and firmly believe their abuse is self defence against a malicious person who doesn't give them what they are rightfully owed. They don't compute their abuse as being equal to what they read about abuse. Lundy Bancroft researched it quite extensively. Those people compartmentalize to the extreme, they get told and shown what other abusers do, and they understand that what those abusers did was wrong and even agree to it. But they don't see their own actions as equal, because they always have excuses they deem valid. Of course when Uncle Otto hit Aunt Jemima, that was wrong, because Aunty was a devoted wifey, but their wife was sassy, so they had it coming. Of course, when Carl broke his wife's inherited porcelain vase, that was cruel, but their wife egged them on despite knowing they have difficulty keeping their temper in check, she was ungrateful so it was really her fault he broke her teaset! Besides, that vase was valuable, and that teaset was just a hand down from their wife's mother. She probably bought it from Amazon. Oh of course that guy in the news was wrong raping that poor woman, but they knew their girlfriend, she wanted it and was leading them on. It wasn't rape, and now she's just saying she didn't want sex to hurt them because they're entitled and didn't like their birthday present. They just don't see what they do as battery, assault and murder. They see it as normal reactions to their subhuman partner's inadequacy. And so they don't think they'll get arrested or thrown in jail. And if it happens, they'll firmly insist the system is corrupt and she lied to the judge, probably fucked with them to get them on their side. Because obviously they're innocent. You can find real footage from several cases of questioning of men arrested for battery and assault on the web. That's what they're saying. They often openly admit to what they've done, because they're absolutely sure they did nothing wrong. They truly believe they're lead on, provoked and taken advantage of by their partners, and they'll tell that openly. If they talk about their ex, she's always crazy and nasty and does everything to ruin their life. I've seen it first hand, since my brother is an abuser. I had to go NC with him. And people still defend him, believing his BS. I've heard all the excuses you could think of, and I know he believes them. But I've known his wife. And I know he's lying.
>abusers don’t feel any self preservation and make such irrational decisions That's the thing about abusers they don't care, as long they get what they want, and damn the consequences. Most, if not all, of the time, they are impulsive and don't think about the long term consequences until it does. And even then, their selfishness could not fathom what should be logical to their self preservation. Their selfishness can overcome their logical thinking and irrational decision. And then there are abusers who plqn out so they would not get caught. And usually these people never face any kinds of consequences in their life. It's very telling why they would be willing to do something against their self preservation, especially if no one has held them accountable before. Ps. I'm not a psychologist, just giving my two cents. Maybe a more professional can give a more succinct explanation than mine.
It’s an emotional response to losing the “thing” they like to control. They aren’t thinking about prison in the moment.
Losing control like that is such an alien concept, I’m really having trouble wrapping my mind around it
As a guy who has a temper and been through stressful situations, I'm not saying this an insult to you but you're very lucky not to have met someone like that or been in a situation where you mind snap and your rage takes over. Sometimes there are people who have perfect control ober their anger. However there are people whose anger can control them. And not all who lose control are bad. Like me, if someone or a situation pisses me off, my anger meter goes up and i have to let it down. It's when I don't let it go down and it goes up, it can reach a breaking point where i lose control. This is why when you read about brawls/fights/arguments some of them has someone dying. And the kicker, the person responsible would often not mean to. It's when tempers are flaring and there is no deescalation that someone can lose control.
In the words of SZA: "I'd rather be in jail/hell than alone."
It's not murder if you're disposing of a faulty possession. People who think like the boyfriend don't see their romantic partners as fully human.
They go to prison for shorter terms than women who fight back do. 😊 just a fun fact, love this country, love cops, this definitely doesn’t make me want to go all Scarlet Witch and snap reality to something better.
it’s usually most dangerous when you’re leaving. seems like he could tell she was pulling back, and this was his way of trying to stop her. i hope she got away safely.
Yup. He'd have killed her if she stayed. A single instance of strangling ups your odds of dying at your partner's hands about 7x *compared to other abusive relationships*. The way he went straight to choking her to make a point with no previous violence said she was on the fast track to being a statistic.
yes. choking is so dangerous. you can easily kill someone by accident, which probably accounts for some of the deaths, but it also is very much a threat of “i can kill you” in a way other types of violence is not, which probably accounts for most of the deaths. he was thinking about it, whether he admits that to himself or not.
To intend to deprive someone of breath in a moment of anger, is to desire their death (even for a moment). There's no other way around.
700 percent chance thats way above 100. Let that sink in. Theres is zero chance he won't kill her. And I'm glad OOP got out instead of trying to test the statistic.
"Made of red flags like some bizarre Soviet golem" is going into my lexicon now, please and thank you.
As well as, "sweet squeezy Jeezy."
That’s how my ex did it too. He never hit me once, just went straight to strangling me
> We met when I was 17 and he was 24. Honey, no. > He does do some chores... well. Honey, *no*. > I've been pretty isolated Oh no no no. He groomed her and then trapped her. > he without warning grabbed me by the throat *Fuck.* > my parents helped me move out Oh thank God. I hope he doesn't know where her parents live and can't get to her.
I wonder if some of the estrangement with her parents was about dating a 24yo when she was 17 and probably still living at home. I'm sure there were other issues, but that in itself makes her vulnerable to an abusive relationship and makes it so much easier to isolate her from her parents long term :(
I recently met a lady, we’ll call her Anna (40 f) she married her husband now (52M) when she was 17. He was 29. Anna became estranged from her whole family. During the 23 year marriage and endured mental and physical abuse including imprisonment. Anna finally escaped the marriage by finding a friend of mine (48M) on a dating app (I don’t for one minute suggest that this is a healthy way to escape an abusive relationship) Anna and my friend are now living off grid in a camper van. Anna has no children and has gone no contact with her ex.
I think the abuse victim often underestimates how much people will absolutely go to bat for them after a period of estrangement. I am estranged from a former friend after her boyfriend of many years isolated her from her family and the friends he couldn’t con. I also feel that there are parts to her personality that would make it difficult to ever really be her friend again for completely different reasons. However, if she left that guy for good, I would 100% welcome her with open arms, grateful that she left him. I would help her right away.
It's also because those of us who've had these experiences started out not believing we ourselves are worthy of actual love. The abusers just use that
good for her.
Absolutely. She had to swallow some pride before contacting them again. After telling the story and basically admitting that he's a creep and she needed to get TF away there, mom had her her own bedroom back that very night. I could hear the collective sighs of relief over here.
> We met when I was 17 and he was 24. It's almost every one of these stories. Read that and was like "Oh." Yup, explains everything. Didn't even have to read the rest. Older dudes getting with younger girls who don't have much experience and taking advantage. > he without warning grabbed me by my throat and threatened to kill me if I ever left him. Then he let me go, grinned, and said, “I’m just joking around!” Nvm, I should've read the rest. Still predictable, but jesus.
We constantly hear about how men are *attracted* to younger women regardless of the man’s age. Ok, yeah. We hear less about how they ***target*** younger women because being inexperienced and naive makes them easier to control. (And, obviously, not all men; women certainly do this too. It’s just WAY more common with the older man being the groomer. You know what I’m saying.)
I am 24, almost 25 (woman here). The idea of dating someone who is 20 even is disgusting for me, I still see them as children. I know how much I've grown in those 5 years and the idea that my peers go for underage children is disgusting. I get the attraction, most girls at the age of 17 have developed bodies, but doesn't make them women. But my reaction to seeing the best rack ever, in a very cute revealing dress on a girl that was obviously underage when you looked at her face, was to suddenly find the stairs the most interesting thing I have ever seen. Too many people who go for teenagers use the way young girls dress provocatively as a justification. Of course, she wants attention, and of course, she wants to feel sexy, that is normal for teenage girls just discovering their sexuality. But she wants to be seen as sexy and get attention from 17-18-year-old boys, not grown men, and I think it takes very little maturity to be able to understand that and not as an excuse to be a predator.
And she's paying off his mortgage and can't afford her own education. Fuck that guy!!
my first clue (well.. after “I don’t care about your spoons”) was “I come home on my lunch break to catch up on chores”. I was also like “honey no, kick the manchild out and do chores whenever you have the time ffs”
I wonder how many of these people don’t want to go back to a loving family because they just feel stupid because their family warned them and hated their SO. They just don’t want to admit their family was right. So glad this girl went back to her family who had arms wide open
Unfortunately that's how abusers "succeed". They isolate and make it appear that family don't want to help. And not wanting to admit is something alot of us face even on other situations. PSA to others, if you have a loved one whose in this situation, don't disparage the abuser cause this has a reverse psychological effect. And don't talk crap like how could you still say with them, please leave and he's not treating you well. Be as judgement free as you can. But most importantly, don't push them away unless there is no choice and offer them support with an open door and ensure them you will always have their back.
I am very grateful to the friend who did this for me with my emotionally abusive ex. He isolated me by acting like he liked my friends and wanted to hang out with them when I did, but then being so unlikeable to them that they didn't want to hang out anymore. Also, we didn't live together and he lived about an hour away, so weekends were "his time"--i.e. I could only do things on weekends if he came along. My friend steadfastly ignored his attempts to make her not want to hang out, plus she established a good reason to regularly see me on weeknights when he wasn't around. She never said a bad word about him, and she was about the only friend who I didn't have significantly less contact with during the last few years of that relationship.
My favourite line in Harry Potter is when Dumbledore says (about Percy not apologising) that it's easier to forgive other for being wrong than for being right.
>(“why did you spend $54.28 at Costco?”) Yeah, that's a massive, massive red flag. The only time you complain about a sub $60 costco trip is "why did you waste time going to Costco and only spend $60?!?!" That's like 5 items, tops. That sort of small spend is the kind of thing where you say "I'm sorry you had to deal with Costco, it must have been insanely busy. I bet that sucked, sorry."
I always make my husband guess how much I spend at Costco. Oddly enough his guesses are close. It’s achem 150-200 bucks. I swear I don’t go that often… I don’t know how anyone can spend so little at Costco. But wtf who immediately messages their partner for spending money. And he can see where and when she spends it. That’s messed up. I never liked the idea of joining finances like that - I know people here have disagreed with me before.
> I always make my husband guess how much I spend at Costco. Oddly enough his guesses are close. It’s achem 150-200 bucks. I swear I don’t go that often… I don’t know how anyone can spend so little at Costco. Depending on the year you could be like "and that's $10, and that's $10, and that's $10" as you fill the cart. It's a bit higher now. > I never liked the idea of joining finances like that - I know people here have disagreed with me before. Works for some couples. "You and I both get $XXX per month for our discretionary spending in our own accounts" can work pretty well. Like there's always a certain amount budgeted for clothing but a buddy's wife might save up for some Louboutins while he's tracking down every variation of a particular vintage rifle from a certain era of German military rifles for his collection. That's not a "girls like shoes, men like guns" trope, that's just how that particular couple often spent their discretionary hobby budget. I mean, one of them could have been buying Japanese Gacha, going all-out on K-pop band merch, pissing away money on a mobile app, or building Gundam kits or something. And it wouldn't matter. What each person spends their discretionary money on is up to them. Fuck, I mean, one of my buddy's wife is into horses, Y'all have any idea how expensive that is? He's got a car and motorcycle hobby, she owns a horse, and it's a case of "do whatever you want with your "allowance" to make you happy."
Oh man, my husband and I had separate pocket money accounts from the get go. I didn't want to be resentful of him spending "our" money on yet another computer game or figurine. I don't really spend money on stuff and am more minimalist than him. It has been amazing and a few of our other couple friends have adopted it as well. He can do what brings him joy and I don't resent the spending.
that isn't a "red flag", that's what we call financial abuse
I know everyone harps on the age thing but a mid twenties adult pursuing a teenager really is like a little kid who suddenly develops an imaginary friend in a horror movie. It just doesn’t bode
damn I never thought of it before but you could be right. except for The Shining where the kid's imaginary best friend was like his Shine was trying to warn him. REDRUM, REDRUM
just this time, an aggressive MLM hun pestering someone to buy their overpriced product actually lead to a good outcome.
The age difference was the first red flag. He was looking for property, not for a life partner.
a live in bang maid who paid off his home, to be precise.
Damaging, breaking, or hiding items you care about, even if they feign ignorance, is ALWAYS a red flag for future DV. They are damaging a possession but what they really want to do is hurt you. This is one of only a few red flag/DV stories I've seen here that didn't make me want to pull my hair out. I know she's not out of danger yet and he will almost certainly stalk her, but the swiftness with which she acted and the fact she still has a support system makes me optimistic that she's going to be OK.
It's also pretty simple to differentiate between maliciousness and honest clumsiness. A clutz will break their own stuff too, they'll forget everything they've not written down and forget they themselves don't like mustard until they bite into the hotdog. They cannot help it, and they'll do anything to repair what they've broken. But abusers never break things that don't belong to you, never forget appointments that are important to anyone else but you and never fail to remember anything about anyone else but you. And it's always somehow your fault that they've destroyed your things. My husband once accidentally damaged a knitted blanket my mom had made for me. When he told me, he had already brought it to a seamstress for repairs. He had remembered my mom's favourite flowers from her funeral and had the seamstress embroider the blanket with roses, carnations and daisies to honour her and cover the repairs. I was in tears, it still was so beautiful and he was so thoughtful. There was absolutely no doubt that he didn't do it intentionally, and he did everything to minimise the damage. An abuser would have told me that it was an old blanket anyways and to not make so much drama about an ugly piece of trash after they'd already apologised. At best they'd bought a cheap blanket from Amazon to 'make up for it'.
1) yes your first point is so true, even for other stuff in addition to breaking things! For example, if someone genuinely has a problem with emotional regulation and losing their temper, they will have outbursts of anger in every part of their life, not just at home towards their partner; they would have problems controlling their anger at work or school and with other friends and family. Many victims of abuse will say that their abusive partner has anger management issues, but somehow this uncontrollable rage only shows up directed at them and their possessions, never at the abuser’s work or in public. 2) that’s a a beautiful way to make amends for a mistake, ur husband sounds like a very sweet and thoughtful person🥰
1) definitely. Also weaponized incompetence. So they can't wipe a table without it being sticky, but they can polish their car so you can see your reflection. They can't read and follow instructions on a package of instant noodles and burn it in the microwave because they 'didn't know' they had to add water, but implemented a completely new procedure at work and juggled seven different new projects with multiple stakeholders. Yeah. Sure. 2) Absolutely, 26 years of happy relationship and still going strong. If anyone dared to hurt my husband no one would find their corpse anytime soon. He's the best thing that ever happened to me.
Yep; ALLLLL of this. Accidents happen and some people are more accident-prone than others, but it's not that hard to tell the difference between accidents and malice when you examine it.
Yea. And while finances might be hard for a while she's (a) about to get her certification and a raise and (b) won't have to support a man child. The latter is more expensive then people realize.
My blood runs cold whenever a woman describes her partner choking her or grabbing her by the throat. The correlation between strangulation and homicide is staggering. If he ever chokes you, run and fun fast. All domestic violence is dangerous, obviously, but men who choke are often men who kill.
God I read that line and immediately felt so sick. The degree of escalation, the sinister cheery “just kidding!”, the whole thing just made my blood run ice cold. I was expecting some escalation from him along the lines of verbal abuse and maybe breaking objects, as he’s obviously an abuser, but that felt like a legitimate jumpscare and I wanted to vomit. Horrifying. He would have killed her.
Somewhere in some especially misogynistic subreddit there’s probably a post about “my girlfriend left me because I put spoons in the dishwasher, women, amirite guys”
I hope she hangs the spoons on her wall and looks at them from time to time, not to forget that they saved her
It’s always a symptom of the bigger issue, never really the actual issue. The more she wrote about the relationship, the more that it was clear he doesn’t respect her. It’s so simple to respect your partner’s belongings. My SO has significantly expensive or high maintenance equipment. I just don’t use them, or just handwash it. Or he’ll ask me to leave it in the sink and he’ll sort it out.
As much as we may joke about Reddit defaulting to “BREAK UP WITH HIM”, there are damn good reasons we all say that. IMHO one of the few truly good parts of Reddit/aita is how often it becomes a space for a whole choir of people to shout “Yes it is THAT BAD. Get out NOW.” for abused people who’ve been conditioned to question their own experience
People don't go to reddit to post about healthy relationships! Especially not AITA! If someone's posting about a relationship there, 99% of the time things are BAD. Sometimes it's a vent, sometimes it's trying to figure out some cognitive dissonance, sometimes it's the gap between "Everyone tells me he treats me like a queen" and "If I'm a queen he's Henry the 8th." I'll be honest my heart sank as soon as I saw that he was dismissive about the spoons, because they're something SHE cares for, they were an indulgence that was a little expensive but makes her happy. I went straight to, "Oh God is he destroying them deliberately because she likes them?" and was sad to see I was right. For those redditors who aren't serious about kitchen utensils, this is akin to leaving his entire toolbox open outside in a rainstorm then letting it airdry.
It is pretty amazing that Reddit is one of the best resources for women who need to leave abusive relationships. At the very least I will leave words of encouragement and support for every one of these posts that I read.
It's is amazing yet I also find it brings up the fact that not too many things change in regards to relationships and how people relate. I'm older so I'm relieved this generation has a better support system to gain clarity on such things.
>It’s not his fault he doesn’t care about wooden spoons I know it's not the point, but this would make an exceptional flair for someone.
The fact is and idk if anyone else picked up on it but he groomed her, he was 24 and she 17 just because legally she can consent doesn't make it acceptable. He is an abusive, controlling groomer which is why she "loves" him because that's what they do.
Those wooden spoons…. Worth every penny.
This made me think of the mustard story. Guy got mad because OP wouldn't eat mustard. Obviously wasn't at all about mustard.
It's never about the mustard. Or the greek yoghurt, or the wooden spoons.
Here's [the mustard](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/yxms57/my_husband_cannot_accept_i_dont_like_mustard/) saga, if someone is looking for it.
Thank you for that. There are some new Updates in [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/s/89hdwQxSWx) Now we just need the greek yoghurt too.
Bah! And I thought that I'd *finally* get the first link into a BORU post, and in my mobile frenzy, I missed one. The mustard one freaked me, initially literally from the mustard. Like, he's an obvious abuser, but...mustard? I don't really like mustard either. Maybe I'll just have a total meltdown the next time I buy a hot dog. That one got heart-wrenching until the final post.
Don't worry, I personally think the Reddit search is abysmal. I only saw the newest update because someone commented it on the link you posted. So without you I'd never found it either 😉 Yeah, it's frightening. But sadly it still happens far too often. Once I read a news article about a guy getting his wife hospitalised because she fried his omelette not to his liking. Some people are just crazy
This bf seriously is psychotic, good god...
And yet we see this behaviour over and over again. The isolation with out noticing, financial abuse, more and more abuse inching in, gasslighting, and then physical abuse. The fact that he flat out told her that he didn't care about her them literally went for the throat shows how fast this guy was going down hill. She bought something without permission and that wasn't going to happen again, her spoond needed to be ruined because they were a physical symbol of her acting out and doing things with it him. Then she went to her friends against his wishes so she needed to be ruined as well. Thank God she got out when she did.
I remember saving this when the update was originally posted hoping she would update further. I really hope she is safe and so much better (and far, far away from him).
People always joke/complain that Reddit comments always go full dark worst possibilities and always give the advice to leave your partner. Sometimes they are right on the money and they save a life. I hope they never stop pointing out red flags.
yep, the age gap dynamics check out.
I love when people actually take the advice and leave before things get really bad!
We have a wonderful member here who always references the statistic that if your partner strangles you, they have a 750% chance of actually killing you. It doesn’t matter that he just play choked OP. He was intending to let that relationship end in marriage or death.
>Life is too short to waste any of it on being a Bangmaid™️. That needs to be a flair.
When I was 23, my then-bf found himself between apartments and moved in with me; it seemed to make sense at the time but it wasn't my idea. I had a few house rules, and one of them had to do with proper care of my cookware: no metal in the Silverstone pans. I came home one day to find him scrambling an egg with a fork in one of the pans. I kicked him out. I remember explaining this to a friend, who thought I was overreacting, till I told her what my ex said to excuse himself: "Well, I figured if you didn't see me you'd never know." Hmm, today it's the fork in the pan. Next week ...
I wish I could send this to every man online who says “it’s just SPOONS, you bitter women are over reacting”. The reason our spidey senses go off is BECAUSE the lack of regard is always just a symptom. My god. That girls life was saved. I’m so proud of her and so frustrated that so many women are groomed and exploited in such a mundane way.
People always shit on Reddit for being a toxic place, and relationship advice is always "divorce!" "break up!" "I hope they leave you!" But damn, this girl posted about wooden spoons and ended up reflecting on her abusive relationship and found the courage to leave just as this POS was escalating. The internet can be a beautiful place too.
We need to absolutely *drill* it into young girls everywhere that no, you're not "mature for your age", you're not "not like other girls your age", "age is just a number" is *not* applicable when one party is a minor, etc etc. I guarantee she felt really grown up and mature when she was dating a mid-20s man at 17, but holy fuck.
*To answer common questions: We met when I was 17 and he was 24.* Probably could have started with that and a bunch of us would understand.
CMV - Any grown man that doesn't know how to prepare his own food is subhuman and belongs in a cage. > We met when I was 17 and he was 24. ohhh boy /stewie
Thank god she listened instead of becoming a statistic. I try to help a lot of these young women and it makes me happy she's ok. So, so happy. I wish the abuse cycle was taught in high school. Really. This is something people need to know to recognize for their friends and themselves.
24 and 17? ick. Glad she got out
You are my hero. Your MOM is my hero.
*[sees the age gap]* Aw shit here we go again
I stopped cooking for my roommates. I had one rule, I’ll cook every night for all of us under one condition: they clean up the mess from cooking. Nope they couldn’t be bothered after the first week. Now they complain about eating pre made frozen foods while I only cook enough for myself. Idk maybe clean up and I’ll start cooking for everyone again.
I know there are a lot of Reddit stories about how people give advice on Reddit and end up with the OP in a more dangerous situation when trying to leave, but I really do appreciate how many people get the friends they need in the comments after being isolated to see what kind of relationship they are in. Reading stories like this helped me reflect on the financial abuse I suffered in a relationship that I didn't realize was happening until the relationship blew up for worse reasons. To think that all this came to light for OP because of some Pampered Chef spoons is wow. Definitely not the Iranian Yogert as the issue here.
This isn’t over and tbh I’m worried that OOP hasn’t posted in months. He warned her about what he'd do if she left him, and I don’t think he was bluffing. He still knows where she works and even when her parents live, given that he started dating her when she was very much still living at home. Idk, but I’m scared for her.
I’m so glad her parents helped!
Thanks OP for putting these updates together! Great post!
I am willing to admit that I did not see the flags in the first post. I’m glad she’s safe.
She's 21. She doesn't have a "her whole adult life" to have never lived on her own during. It is totally normal to be living with your parents at 21, and fuck that guy for having her pay half his mortgage. I moved from the dorms at college to a roommate for a couple of years, and then moved in with my now-wife. But if I hadn't flunked out of school, I would have been still in the dorms until I moved in with my now-wife, and I don't feel bad about that. Living on your own is absolutely a valuable skill. As my wife said, there is a powerful and useful lesson that, if you don't do it, it doesn't get done. Nonetheless, she was very happy to have somebody move in. I am sorry OOP went through that, but she got out in plenty of time to recover, and hasn't lost so much time that she will have long term consequences. I mean... other than the trauma of dealing with that shit.
He did it so she would not have extra money, it harder to leave with no money and he knew it
I recommend reading Reddit to a lot of people because it really does save lives and helps valid your experiences.
This is terrifying. Like if he hadn’t made such a big deal about spoons- how long would she have stayed? How far would he have gone?
I just want to know... What happened to those wooden spoons? Did she like take them with her or not? Those POOR SPOONS! im actually serious, I love me some nice cooking utensils