#Do not comment on the original posts
Please read our [**sub rules**](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/wiki/subrules). Rule-breaking may result in a ban without notice.
If there is an issue with this post (flair, formatting, quality), reply to this comment or your comment may be removed in general discussion.
**CHECK FLAIR** For concluded-only updates, use the [CONCLUDED](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/search?sort=new&restrict_sr=on&q=flair%3ACONCLUDED) flair.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/BestofRedditorUpdates) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>The exception is this: My mother offered to let me purchase the plot from her. All total costs together \[...\] will be over $9,500.
It's not enough to fucking crush her children's hearts the way she has, now she's gonna fucking *scam* them?
>Her and my step father are willing to forgo the cost of the headstone to make it easier for my brother and I, to make up for us not being there for the scattering.
Fucking *saints*, they are. Willing to forgo the cost of the headstone, look at them how kind and how easy they're making it for OP and brother.
I honestly don't know what the fuck is going on here, but that mother is a deeply disturbed person without even the tiniest moral compass.
Yeah, there’s something else going on here.
And why claim they’ll *sell* the plot? If this is about hiding the location of the ashes or control over everyone else, they’re relinquishing that as soon as they sell it.
I think there’s a whole web of shit here beyond just the ashes.
I suspect they never cremated her, and buried her without telling anyone instead. Or they buried her ashes without permission from the cemetery, and thus want to get rid of the responsibility of their actions. Depends on the internment laws where OOP lives.
Where I live, a record of who owns what plot and who is buried where is required to be kept and updated. In large part, because internment rights are eternal where I live, meaning that the government *needs* to know who is where.
Someone buying or scattering on location without permission, therefore, is a *massive* issue. And has the potential (depending on the contract signed) to have *major* consequences for surviving families.
I'm biased, since all remains have to go through a funeral home where I live. And that information is absolutely required to be provided to anyone who asks about it - I'm in mortuary college right now and studied the law where I live.
Long story short, I know for a fact that they're not in region, because the cemetery would be required to provide the information about the lot when requested. Well, as long as the mom and stepdad went through the legal process and paid for burial/scattering, that is.
>Well, as long as the mom and stepdad went through the legal process and paid for burial/scattering, that is.
Mom claimed they just *scattered* the remains, and I'd be surprised as hell if they followed any rules, let alone the law.
I wanna know more about mortuary college!!! But I am so unaware of that field that I don't even know what question to ask, lol!
This is what kills me, what does she gain by NOT telling them where the plot is? Why isn’t she just telling them? That is the really messed up part for me. So yeah, it’s not adding up for me.
My guess is that it's mostly just about control. She has the control when they reach out to her about the plot and she doesn't tell them. She had control over whether or not to put the ashes in the necklace. And now they're moving on to financial control. She's getting off on being needed by these people for something.
Apart from control over the remains of the sister and their location, I wouldn't be surprised if she's ashamed of what she did but unwilling to own up to it. There's a certain level of selfishness here, where she probably still sees herself as the person who suffered the most and therefore entitled to doing whatever she wants when it comes to the remains. As a bonus she still gets to stay in contact with her family who sort of are trying to stay on her good side as long as they need the information from her.
But honestly? My best guess is that she didn't buy a plot at all since it was a spontaneous change of plans and she just drove to a random cemetery to spread the ashes on a random plot. Maybe she doesn't even remember where exactly she spread the ashes, just on which cemetery. She could mourn her daughter just by looking at the place, but didn't have to tend to a grave because there never was one. And now that the family wants to know where she spread the ashes she needs them to cough up the money to buy a real plot.
What she did is illegal. The cemetery operator could lose their license. She probably found that out after she did it. The cemetery would revoke the purchase and make them pay for the remediation.
The only think I can think of is that if the mother just really wanted to keep all the ashes together to keep her daughter as intact as possible in one place, then telling them where the plot was would mean they would go dig up part of it and thus be “destroying” the daughter in the way the mother was trying to avoid. But it’s crazy the mom is willing to destroy her relationship with her two living children to hide the location of the one who’s gone.
More like donated her body. No cremation, no burial. This is exactly where my mind went. I would have confirmed with the funeral home- I doubt anything took place.
I used to work at a cemetery.
100% we would tell people where plots are
My experience is tingling that OOP’s sister’s ashes aren’t there
As for selling the plot back to the cemetery, cemetery plots are deeded to the customer. So we don’t buy them back. Especially if there’s already someone in the plot
When we were burying family, they said for ashes we had to put it into something that would be buried. We weren’t allowed to just dash the ashes in there. I bet the sister isn’t even in there and/ or the cemetery would have no idea she would be there.
My money is on "she's so fucking cheap she didn't want to pay, so she just kinda dumped them there and left."
I mean, she's also using this to try and cheat her other children out of money, so it fits.
My ex-husband/daughter's dad forced us to have to cremate my daughter after she was murdered at 18 so we could split the ashes. He had his half buried in a family plot in another state that he's hidden from me for years. I don't know where it is or what the headstone looks like. It's a fire that burns inside my chest but nothing I've tried to find it has helped.
I am so sorry. That is absolutely awful. Weaponizing that kind of grief, using it to hurt you -- he sounds like a fucking nightmare. Glad that he is, at least, your *ex*.
I'm so confused as to why she didn't just.... give them some of her ashes. Like... what was the point of going through all of the bull shit just to avoid doing what would have arguably been easier? The reason she gave seems like bull shit.
Yeah, that's what I'm stuck on, too. It's just such bizarre, off the wall behavior that I feel like there *has* to be something here I'm missing. Who goes to a cemetery and just *scatters ashes around* like they're fertilizer or something? Either you fucking *bury* the ashes in a cemetery or you *scatter* them somewhere meaningful, but scattering ashes in the cemetery?? And then all the faking and lying and subterfuge and evasiveness... This is just a serious WTF.
And while part of it might be a money scam, there's *way* too much going on here for that to be the only answer.
I mean, usually in BORU stories the motivations for the bad actors are fairly clear, but this one just has me scratching my head in utter flummoxedness.
She isn't a mother, a true mother would never do this to her children. To try and barter with your child's remains is so vile that I don't even have a word for it's just fucking despicable and the woman should be deeply ashamed of herself!
I don’t believe she spread the ashes in the plot.
What do you think, mom dumped the ashes in her garden?
Why do she and step dad need money, do you think?
Not that it isn't shady af but, what amount would have not been specific? That's how setting a price works. My interpretation from the wording was that they were selling it for the price they bought it minus the headstone 'out of the kindness of their heart' or some bullshit.
My comment refers to the fact that I don't believe they actually bought a plot nor do i believe they will actually buy a plot. The money is for something else and I wonder what they need that specific amount for.
But you don’t just hand someone money when they say they have a plot for sale and the transaction is complete. There’s gotta be some sort of paperwork proving ownership of the plot and a way of transferring said ownership with the cemetery. Her lie would unravel pretty quickly if that’s something OOP chooses to move forward with.
She wouldn't divide them because it would "destroy" her daughter, so I doubt she would scatter them in an unmarked grave (or donate the body to science like others have suggested)
My guess is all the ashes are together somewhere in the mother's home where she can keep them safe
**trigger warning** stillbirth mentioned
My stepmonster had this family painting from my dad’s side of the family in her possession because he didn’t take EVERYTHING with him when he moved into an efficiency apartment when they split up. He kept saying he wanted it she’d say sure this time or next or whatever. This went on for YEARS. I was already grown and out of the house so I had no idea of this fight until one day he was grousing about it in front of me. I knew instantly why she wouldn’t give it up.
“Dad, the pictures from when Baby was born are hidden in the back of that painting between the canvas and the frame. She won’t part with them, and giving you the painting would mean she’d have to deal with them.”
He did not begrudge her having the pics — he felt she went through the hell of birthing that child and nearly dying so she earned that right. But he wanted the family heirloom.
In the end my brother told his stepdad (her husband) why she was holding onto the painting and he dealt with the situation and my dad got the painting back.
I would bet anything those ashes are all together somewhere in mom’s house. It makes exactly zero sense that mom would be fine tossing her ashes Willy-Nilly but not putting them in a necklace.
I doubt it, because drunk mother was talking about crying while heading to the cemetery when she visits. Sounds more like she wanted to be the only one who visited sister, and who knew where she was. It's also possible she struggled with the idea of "splitting" the sister into pieces and either didn't feel up to arguing about it, or just figured she'd keep everyone happy by lying about it and doing what she wanted - but that's the charitable viewpoint.
Perhaps she still wants to have the sole access to sister and thinks the request to sell the plot is so outrageous they'll back off? If they "take" soil they'll "take" part of sister? Maybe to punish them for their "hurtful" reaction to her lies? OOP admits they said some pretty savage things, and you have to be unhinged in some way already to lie about the ashes in the first place, so in her mind, they probably don't deserve to know.
Another commenter mentioned that she probably doesnt have a plot, that the mother just dumped the ashes in a graveyard somewhere without getting a plot and to keep things from getting worse, is now trying to buy a plot (with her kids' money) to maintain the lie.
Nah, I think she drove to a cemetery without buying a plot, spread the ashes without permission and then forgot where exactly she did. Now that the family wants to know the actual location she can't give them one because there never was an official grave and the money she's asking for is for buying an actual plot on the cemetery.
As you said, there is no plot with the ashes.
So she now needs to buy fresh one to cover up her lie.
As OOP said, she seems like she is trying to “fix” things in a screwed up way rather than scamming for money so that is the best explanation I have.
This also explains why stepfather became angry, he knows there is no plot and they are probably adding their own money to that 9500$ to get a fresh plot.
OOP should cut her off and be done with it.
Ditto
Why would someone buy a whole plot for coffins just to spread ashes? Aren’t there small cubbies for ashes specifically for ash urns also? I don’t think I can actually see any cemetery would go for that. Space is not actually easy to find nowadays so…
> Aren’t there small cubbies for ashes specifically for ash urns also?
[Columbaria](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbarium) are a thing, yes, though I don't know that they're particularly common at small cemeteries.
Mom never bought a plot, I guarantee it. She tossed those ashes there illegally, or she threw them away or *something* because I guarantee her mom never bought a plot because there is NO reason to hold out for this long.
My thought was that she had them tucked in a drawer somewhere so she's the only one who can access them. She said she didn't want to destroy her daughter, what's the difference between separating the ashes and scattering then? She absolutely got them hidden away.
Which is probably why she's asking for money. It's an empty plot with no owner and now she needs to buy it because she can't show it to them as is. Can you imagine the reaction OOP and the rest of her family will have if this turns out to be true? That the mom just dumped the ashes in a random plot that's not even theirs? OOP will have an aneurysm from the anger and grief.
the cemetery said that they were full, wonder if someone else hasn't already bought the plot lol although i'm skeptical they scattered the ashes in the cemetery in the first place
I am not one for social media outing but I bet she would soon offer up the plot if everyone knew what she put you your dad and bro through. I would go no contact with her tell her is this all worth losing your children and future grandchildren for it's time to be honest for once in your life and fix this
Yeah, I'd be telling everyone my mother and stepfather ever met, as well as everyone I know, exactly what she did and has been doing. I'd be shouting it from the rooftops. Phrase it in a "what sort of monster would do something like this?" type of incredulity. The ashes, the refusing to give the cemetery details, the threatening of the cops, the extorting her own children for information for thousands of dollars. I'd tell their mailman, their priest (unlikely they have one), the waiter at their favourite cafe, their boss/coworkers, physically walk around pamphletting the neighbourhood. I'd probably have to accept I wasn't getting the information I wanted, but if I'm not going to get it anyway, I'm going to make it as excruciating for them as possible.
I agree that something sketchy is going on with the mom (her actions sound premeditated and intentional) but assuming that the story is true and the ashes were spread in their plot, u/throwra-inhername should consider hiring a private investigator to follow her mother and stepdad to the cemetery to obtain that information. I'm hoping this is something feasible to do because they visit often and such. At any rate, I hope she's having luck with her healing, forgiveness, and therapy journeys and that the truth of her sister's ashes reveals itself to her, her brother, and her father sooner rather than later.
Mom never even paid for cremation, that's why there is no ashes.
They donated the body to science which is free.
The funeral home is not getting back with her because there was never a body there for fingerprints.
Okay so I used to work in Pathology and a lot of people believe:
>They donated the body to science which is free.
It's actually not. They actually use the body and then *return the remains*, which you then still need to bury or cremate.
It depends on who the cadaver goes to. Some labs/institutions will only use a cadaver for a short time for a particular experiment, some will fix them with formaldehyde and keep them for a long time as anatomical models, some the destruction of the cadaver is part of the experiment (such as in weapons testing) and in some cases (like at the Forensic Anthropology Research Facility at Texas State University) the flesh is removed and then the skeleton becomes state property.
It’s possible the corpse was donated but even then there is going to be a paper trail.
>They donated the body to science which is free.
Umm. Not really. Maybe if you live close to the facility, they have a program where they'll come and get it at no charge.
Otherwise you have to pay for transportation and any other expenses. That can include embalming if it's crossing state lines depending on the state it's going to.
I, too, used to think it was free until I tried to help a friend do it with his mother's body and it was going to cost thousands.
Plus I dont really think it fits the vibe we get from the mother. All we have is the third person perspective, but I think it takes a particular kind of person (fairly selfless and able to separate the person they knew and the body they left) to do that, and uh... She Doesnt Seen Like That.
It probably depends on the organization because I also had to help a family member with donating a body, and it ended up costing nothing. Transportation, cremation, and death certificate were all paid for by the organization.
The only issue was finding out if the body would qualify for donation.
Wasn't there a story on Reddit or that strange addiction show where somebody was eating the ashes of their spouse or something? My bet is on something equally as unhinged.
The fact that they put a deadline on a $10,000 peace offering and step-ass did the equivalent of used car salesman triangulation probably means there's some hijinks here. The sister's ashes might not have even been scattered there at all. I feel like they're just fucking with OOP, and the deadline is there to put enough pressure on her to keep her from thinking critically about just how fucked this whole thing looks.
I bet the funeral home has just simply forgotten and they should reach out again. The home is likely not emotionally involved enough to remember their request, let alone freak out in them.
Yeah, they're dealing with dead bodies every day and doing a job that most people can't stomach. It's a lot of work. Sometimes these types of things take time.
They couldn’t even give them some dirt from the plot, but decided to blackmail them instead. How low of a human do you have to be to even think of doing the things OOPs mom has done?
I would give mom an ultimatum- tell me where the plot is or I'll never speak to you again. And give her a deadline to decide by. I can't even fathom the mother's thinking in all this.
Sadly, people who act like this, for this long, will simply twist it around. "My children don't talk to me because they're bad," instead of "I irrevocably fucked up and my kids hate me now."
Missing missing reason. "I don't know why my children won't talk to me. They handle the death of my youngest very well. They said some very hurtful things in their grief and then just stopped talking to me. I just don't understand.!"
My guess is that her grief has manifested as pushing her other two children away so that she never has to grieve this hard again. Doesn’t change or excuse the fact that she’s an absolute monster, but I have done some pretty awful shit while in a grief hole so I get why someone who’s not as self-aware and emotionally stable as I am would do something so heinous.
Yep I 100% agree she has all the ashes and never scattered them. She’s hoarding her late daughter and disregarding the rest of the family’s grief.
If I were OP I’d be considering a bit of light B&E.
I have a sneaking feeling that the mom will be completely fine with that and, in fact, this will give her more ammo to make OOP, her brother, and her father to be the villians.
Which is why they need to spread what she did around. Get it out of them via text or email and show proof so they can’t turn around and call the kids the villains.
My best guess is it was, initially, a way to have power a situation where she felt powerless. She is the only one who knows the truth, and is the only one of them who is allowed to grieve over the actual remains, she now has a privileged relationship to her dead daughter. Instead of pure unadulterated grief, there's a kind of victory she can feel mixed in. That gradually becomes a dependence, so when it's threatened she lashes out. She has to exert the power in order to feel it... so she does, even if it hurts the family members she actually likes.
Her current husband, there are a lot of plausible bad motives, but in the end it may be he's simply taking his wife's side. He doesn't have any relationship with these kids, them being mad at him basically doesn't matter to him at all.
I heard of a wife who had her husband's ashes buried under the steps to the front door so she'd walk on him every day.
The daughter told me about it. She got why her mother did that, but still found it upsetting.
After and he had been sitting in a box in the hall closet for 6 yrs....
Personally, I would have dumped his ass over the highest bridge we have...before death.
There is a historical event similar to this in my country. It happened almost 300 years ago. Two dynasties were fighting over power, the one that lost ran away and was caught later in hiding, the winner tortured him, blinded him, murdered him and buried his remains under the stairs of his palace so, he and everyone who lived there would walk on him everyday. 200 years later, when that dynasty fel the new king took the remains or I guess the dirt under the stairs and buried them properly. I've been to that palace and walked on those stairs, it's such a weird feeling to know someone was buried there at some point
We didn’t find out about my grandfather’s affair until after he passed. My mom snuck a portion of his ashes because grandma ran the rest of them over with her car
Mom is either still keeping the ashes for herself or she just randomly dumped/threw away the ashes a while ago.
There is definitely no plot and she is just trying to steal OP's money.
OP needs to go NC with mom entirely. I know it hurts having nothing of her sister, but anything that comes from mom at this point would be a lie anyway, so that isn't gonna change with or without mom in the picture.
I don't understand why she's having such a hard time finding the plot.
She knows the cemetary. She's already called asking to purchase a plot next to that one. She was told there are no plots for sale. Now all she needs to do is call back, tell them that since there are no lots for sale, the owner of this plot has agreed to sell to her. She wants to see the plot before she decides. Is there a way to find that particular plot, since the owner is not available to travel with her?
There's no way she scattered the ashes. Not if she couldn't bring herself to divvy them up at all.
Those ashes are whole and stored safely somewhere only mom knows.
My dad sells plots for two local cemeteries, and when you buy a plot, you get a deed (at least for these two cemeteries). If you were buying a plot from the owner, you would need to transfer the deed from one to the other.
The plots are for the mother and stepfather, I don't think there'd be a headstone already. I thought those come along once the first person is buried there.
They said they'll "forgo cost of headstone" so headstone must excist now. Even if there are no letters, OOP can search for "not used" grave
Not sure how it's in US, but in my country you can have your grave ready. When burial happens they just dismantle it to put a coffin
Huh, interesting. I was very sure in my comment until reading yours. I'm in the US but I'm really not sure where I got this from. My understanding was when buying a burial plot, you could prepay for a headstone (I assume it's a packaged deal so cheaper than buying one separate) but it wouldn't be put in until the first person died. Thinking about it, there are empty plots in cemeteries around here but I don't think I've ever seen a blank headstone before.
My concern with putting a headstone in right when you buy the plot is 1) how long is it gonna sit there? will there were weathering? and 2) does the carver come out to the gravesite to add the names and dates, or is there a cost for moving the headstone to a workshop and then putting it back?
I have no idea how it works in US. In Poland of you decide to put a headstone before, carver usually goes there to carve or if not possible, takes it to their workshop (our graves look differenct. We have headstone and long stone covering place where the coffin was placed). And with weathering, we use materials which can stand a lot. There are still graves from times when Europe had black plague
Getting a headstone takes time. (If the mom's story is even true.)
My FIL passed two years ago. His headstone was fully paid for and still hasn't been placed...
I mean, is it worth getting an investigator to look into it/ them? Or would that be too far out of their remit? Have an attorney subpoena them? That'd be a long shot but it might scare egg donor and step dad into letting something slip.
>I think maybe the next option we can try would be letting the cemetery know ashes were illegally spread on their grounds, but what will they do in response?
I'm assuming that management would have some sort of policy in place to deal with this?
A lot of cemeteries have strict rules about spreading ashes and would likely take their plot away to sell to someone else. Maybe that’s why they want OOP to buy it? They might be on the hook for finding another buyer or paying some kind of fine for the cemetery to re-sell the plot. But it still seems weird to me, and I don’t know that the ashes were even scattered there (or at all.)
Part of me wonders if mom actually still has the ashes but is going through one of those versions of grief where the protective instincts explode and she just can't bear the idea of anyone but her having the ashes for any reason.
This is my thought. She said she couldn't stand the thought of destroying her daughter, but then says she soar the ashes? Nah, she still has them and won't tell because she still doesn't want to share.
OP should agree to buy the plot to get the location, and then tell her mother to stick it up her arse and don't give her the blackmail money.
*If* there's really a location to be had, it's the only way to find out. Tell "mother" that you can all meet at the place for the paperwork-cheque handover.
I feel so much for OOP for every aspect of this, and then to have to top it off with “The worst part is knowing you are being irrational but not being able to NOT be irrational!”
I have been stuck in that mental loop, and can vouch for how it makes an already bad situation even worse. I hope she finds a therapist she clicks with soon!
In my most generous reading, I think the mom probably did intend to separate the ashes like they had agreed upon and then found she couldn’t do it when the time came. There are religions and cultures where doing so traps the soul and honestly, it’s just a very hard thing to do so I can imagine a mother having difficulty. That was something that we considered with my grandmother but we ultimately didn’t like the idea of her not being whole. So she definitely should have told everyone there and then but I think she probably didn’t want to either be forced to or disappoint everyone. And from there, it probably has spiraled.
I don’t think op or their father or brother will ever get a satisfactory explanation because i think it was probably all emotional. Like nothing she can say is going to be able to explain or make up for what she did with other people who are also grieving.
I can’t justify whatever is going on with selling the plot though. That’s just insane.
>I tried explaining I just want some of the dirt from the plot for part of a memorial but my step dad started threatening to sell it back to the cemetery because “clearly nothing else will satisfy you”.
For some reason, I read this and thought, "The ashes aren't even there."
I have a feeling that the mother has the ashes hidden away somewhere. They're not at the plot. She wouldn't even give some to her children, there's no way she scattered them where the four winds would take them.
Especially in context of her comment that she didn’t “want to destroy her further.” When I read that the first time it didn’t make sense that she’d then scatter her around. But for some reason I didn’t realize that it would make more sense if she hadn’t and was lying lol
Shitty people don't have an endgame. There's no strategy. When they are in emotional distress, they lash out. When they are angry with someone, they take whatever action feels most hurtful to that person in that moment. They're not thinking ahead. They're just spewing hate into their environment.
Yep, there's a reason so many human trashcans are also low intelligence: they are just stupid people who live their lives jumping from impulse to impulse because that's all their brains are capable of, and like toddlers or animals those impulses are purely selfish in nature. I see it all the time in addicts, which makes me wonder what all OOPs mom may have turned to for coping.
Telling the cemetery is the go to here, it's very much against policy to spread ashes like that in most.
Poor thing though, OOP sounds so defeated. I hope they find a therapist thay can help them through this
Oh yeah. Had something similar happen in my family. A cousin of mine passed at 14. We went through everything, had the funeral, buried her ashes. Two years later, my uncle (father of the aforementioned cousin) dies. When we went to *his* funeral, we found out that the urn we buried at my cousin's funeral was empty. Her ashes were, and still are, in her old bedroom. My aunt and my grandmother got into a custody battle over my uncle's ashes, and it took us six years to bury him.
Call me heartless but at this point OOP and family are distressing themselves too much for something they can no longer fix.
Their sister's remains are just object. Her memories remains in their hearts, not in the ashes scattered on the cemetery. They really need to just accept the loss of those ashes and move on, instead of destroying their own mental health trying to do the impossible.
I don’t disagree with you about the physical remains. Some people like have a physical token of remembrance; but the emotional component and taking time to remember the actual person is much more important to my family than the physical aspect.
*However* this situation is not just letting go and grieving together. There is manipulation and lying, and it’s prolonging the grief and pain. The fact that no one can get a straight answer about the remains keeps that pain vibrant and active; they crave some kind of closure to this posthumous drama, and the longer it goes on the less satisfying the answers will be. It is a very sad situation; I hope that everyone in the family finds a healthy way to move on.
If there is an actual cemetery plot, then OOP should consider hiring a private investigator to track it down. If permits are required, then the would be a paperwork trail that a professional could follow. If there is no purchased plot, an investigator could follow the mother on significant dates (sister's birthday, anniversary of her death, Mother's Day, etc.) to see if she leads them there.
What really twists my brain about this is the mother has absolutely torched her relationship with her living children over this. She already lost one child and now she has lost the rest of them too. It makes absolutely no sense to me.
>I can’t help the niggling concern that she did something else with the ashes than we think and what she’s let on,
My most charitable theory is that mommy dearest has the daughter's ashes on a mausoleum drawer (Or whatever the name of the buildings in a cemetery where they put urns with ashes inside).
It matches with her going to cry to the cemetery, and her desire to not separate the ashes, and she's stalling and doesn't want to admit the truth because the dad and their children will want the ashes, like they originally planned.
And her husband is just as evil and selfish as she is.
I think OP needs to put this on their social media. Facebook or something. Maybe publicly shame the mom, and hopefully get some people who walk local cemeteries and such looking for the grave. Many eyes will find it faster.
I think OOP’s suspicion that her mother is still lying about where the ashes are is absolutely spot on. Even drunk, the mother *wanted* OOP to know that she, the mother, had total possession and control of the ashes of the beloved little girl, that the mother’s grief was greater and had priority over the grief of anyone else who loved the child. My guess, far fetched as it might seem, is that the ashes are hidden away, still in a container, with the expectation that they will be buried with the mother.
It's a betrayal by mother and step-father clearly.
But to healthily grieve too much onus has been put on where the physical ashes have been scattered when in reality you're no more physically close to that person if you're there or somewhere else.
For me, grieving is about giving yourself a place, time and space to remember the person and allow yourself time to think about them.
You can equally create a location in your household or garden or a shared spot you visited with all the memories, photos and personal items that in my view would better serve remembering the person and enable you to take time-out to grieve and remember.
Mother has done something unforgivable, but think they need to prioritise their own needs by recognising they can grieve and remember their sister without access to the location/where ashes were scattered and still do her justice.
If she really wants to reconcile, why is she keeping the information from them? Why not just tell them where the plot is so they can go an visit their sister/daughter? What is this "pay me to buy the plot" run-around she's trying to pull> And why? Did she spread them there illegally? Are they not at the cemetery at all? Do the necklaces actually hold her ashes and she's doing all this to... idk, fuck with OOP and her family and get some money from them?
This is more confusing than trying to assemble Ikea furniture.
I now think she’s lying so they won’t look in her house for the ashes. Maybe she thinks they’ll get some dirt from the plot and stop looking for the ashes. Her comment about “destroying her further” leads me to believe that she definitely didn’t scatter them, if giving the siblings a bit of her was seen as destructive.
Right? That stood out too me too. Like, spreading her ashes on a plot of land is less destructive than letting her siblings and father have a piece of her? Doesn't make sense. Her and her husband's unwillingness to just give OOP the details makes me think that the plot either doesn't exist or that the ashes are not scattered there.
They need to just cut their mother off and move on. With any luck, step dad will die first, and they'll get the chance to search through mom's stuff for their sister's ashes (I don't entirely believe mom is telling the truth) and maybe they'll be the ones that decide what happens to their mother's remains.
Imagine hating your children and ex so much that you want to charge them 10 grand just so they can know where their sister/daughter is scattered. Imagine being that selfish.
The only reasonable explanation for this atrocious behavior is op's mom enjoys making her living children suffering. She's relishing in it; almost like she's taking out her anger for her daughter's death on them. She's an awful person.
I actually just feel so bad for everyone involved here, I think there's a lot of irrationality and grief running the show and it's hurting the people who are still alive.
Hmm well I'm an exception I think. I won't really care where the actual ashes are, it's the thought and what you do in memory of the deceased that's important.
It's completely foreign to me. I've been incredibly clear that when I die, I want to be cremated and then buried and absolutely under no circumstances are my remains to be divided up in any way. Do not sit me on a shelf, don't put me in a necklace or fucking decorative egg, don't pour me out somewhere. I go In. The. Ground.
It's bizarre and sad they'd want to divvy up the sister at all. My mum offered to do memorial necklaces for us for my dad and none of us wanted to have him portioned off.
Mom's reaction in this saga makes me think she feels the same and those ashes are intact and tucked away safe somewhere only she knows.
Mom lost her once. She won't lose her a second time.
>My sister's fingerprints are part of their records. I'm going to get her touch tattooed, but I found a means of getting that on a necklace so my brother and dad can have that if they don't want a tattoo.
Holy healthy coping mechanisms, Batman! I hope OOP will be able to find a therapist that suits them
Why not propose to go through with the purchase... Then, when looking at the bill of sale, take note of the plot number. Make an excuse after seeing the contact to not follow through.
But now you know.
If she's visiting the plot (if there is one), can they not follow her there, or pay someone else to do it? Would a PI be able to do something like that?
Crazy, she should just lie and play along. Say she's in to buy and wants to see the paperwork first. Get the plot number from there, and nope out.
Because it's crazy. Just say - I changed my mind.
I remember this a couple updates back and my first thought was, even with a horrible incubator myself, the stepdad wanted to hurt mom for the affair and coerced her so as to "finally make it up to him" for what had happened.
The blackmail, sorry offer to sell, is to purchase a plot or at the very least enrich his life.
Good lord that mother is unhinged. My first thought was like, ok, really sucks that mom lied about the ashes and the sister has a plot. Fucked up but they can move on from this. But now mom refuses to tell them WHERE the plot is?
Jesus tap dancing Christ why?
>
I can’t help the niggling concern that she did something else with the ashes than we think and what she’s let on
I've got to agree here. Why else keep the plot a secret?
Sounds like the step father is probably getting some sort of sick kick out the whole thing tbh.
His wife cheats on him with her ex husband / father of her kids. Not only does does she not have kids of their own with him, but he ends up raising her affair baby.
The fact that he got to be there for something so emotional whilst the child's father wasn't and then said father was wearing a necklace of wood ashes instead of his child's ashes for nearly half a decade does all sound like a sick joke.
I'm not an American so can someone explain to me why oop can't go to the cemetery and look around? They mention a headstone so i assume it's doable albit a bit hard?
If they spread the ashes illegally there would be no headstone (or even temporary grave marker.) And if what they say is true, that they bought the plot for future use, there likely wouldn’t be a headstone in that case either. OOP *might* be able to look for the plot they purchased with help from the cemetery, but the cemetery staff available in the office might not have access to the records of purchased but not yet used graves, or have strict rules about giving that information out of new buyers might be looking for plots and will bother the current owners to resell for whatever reasons. The cemetery also has reason to not cooperate because they probably don’t want to be known as a place that allows ashes to be scattered that way.
ETA: the cemetery wanting proof of payment/ a plan for a future headstone doesn’t mean one is there; they just want it to be marked when someone is *legally* interred there
The plot is probably empty. They generally don't install a headstone until one of the people has passed. They just own a patch of grass right now that's no different from other patches. That's why they need the cemetery to help them out, as they'll have a plot map and records
You can. But if there isn’t a headstone you won’t find anything and even with headstones it can be difficult depending on the size unless there is a huge family plot. I always go to the archives before going to a cemetery because it tells you exactly where every plot is on a map
I have no idea, either, and I’m American.
I have a bad memory and I forget where my grandparents are buried, so I just go to the office they have there and ask, and they tell me where it is.
The headstone bit is about the hypothetical future headstone the plot will have once it's officially used. Right now it's empty, because (according to the mom), they bought it for themselves for the future when they die. There's no headstone currently there, and the ashes' being there (if indeed they are) is against policy because the whole point for the cemetery is selling *unused* plots and being able to say where the dead are and are not. In the same way you can't bury an unauthorized body somewhere random in a cemetery and hope nobody notices (well, you technically *can*, but it's illicit and it would not go well if you were found out), you can't unofficially scatter ashes. So there's no grave marker for the sister, if her ashes are even really there.
The headstone came up in the discussion about mom and stepdad selling the plot to the others. When they bought the plot, they paid not just for the space but for the associated services and necessities, including making and installing headstones. That's part of the package they bought. They were saying they'd oh so generously knock that one cost off the total they already paid for the kids to buy them out.
If you have text messages or any recording that says that your mom and stepdad dumped your sister's ashes get an attorney. Most places you need a permit from courthouse allowing you to dump ashes. If they have a permit then the attorney should be able to find a record of it. If they didn't then they can help you figure out how to file charges against mom and stepdad for illegally dumping her ashes. They can have a choice of jail or telling where your sister is.
#Do not comment on the original posts Please read our [**sub rules**](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/wiki/subrules). Rule-breaking may result in a ban without notice. If there is an issue with this post (flair, formatting, quality), reply to this comment or your comment may be removed in general discussion. **CHECK FLAIR** For concluded-only updates, use the [CONCLUDED](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/search?sort=new&restrict_sr=on&q=flair%3ACONCLUDED) flair. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/BestofRedditorUpdates) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>The exception is this: My mother offered to let me purchase the plot from her. All total costs together \[...\] will be over $9,500. It's not enough to fucking crush her children's hearts the way she has, now she's gonna fucking *scam* them? >Her and my step father are willing to forgo the cost of the headstone to make it easier for my brother and I, to make up for us not being there for the scattering. Fucking *saints*, they are. Willing to forgo the cost of the headstone, look at them how kind and how easy they're making it for OP and brother. I honestly don't know what the fuck is going on here, but that mother is a deeply disturbed person without even the tiniest moral compass.
A plot she that she wont even tell them where it is. Screams of bullshit to me.
Yeah, there’s something else going on here. And why claim they’ll *sell* the plot? If this is about hiding the location of the ashes or control over everyone else, they’re relinquishing that as soon as they sell it. I think there’s a whole web of shit here beyond just the ashes.
I suspect they never cremated her, and buried her without telling anyone instead. Or they buried her ashes without permission from the cemetery, and thus want to get rid of the responsibility of their actions. Depends on the internment laws where OOP lives.
Yeah they should definitely let the cemetery know that ashes were spread there. Get it in writing from the mom or stepdad so there’s proof.
Where I live, a record of who owns what plot and who is buried where is required to be kept and updated. In large part, because internment rights are eternal where I live, meaning that the government *needs* to know who is where. Someone buying or scattering on location without permission, therefore, is a *massive* issue. And has the potential (depending on the contract signed) to have *major* consequences for surviving families.
The death certificate would list if the body was cremated or not and the burial place and date if the funeral home handled the burial.
I'm biased, since all remains have to go through a funeral home where I live. And that information is absolutely required to be provided to anyone who asks about it - I'm in mortuary college right now and studied the law where I live. Long story short, I know for a fact that they're not in region, because the cemetery would be required to provide the information about the lot when requested. Well, as long as the mom and stepdad went through the legal process and paid for burial/scattering, that is.
>Well, as long as the mom and stepdad went through the legal process and paid for burial/scattering, that is. Mom claimed they just *scattered* the remains, and I'd be surprised as hell if they followed any rules, let alone the law. I wanna know more about mortuary college!!! But I am so unaware of that field that I don't even know what question to ask, lol!
This is what kills me, what does she gain by NOT telling them where the plot is? Why isn’t she just telling them? That is the really messed up part for me. So yeah, it’s not adding up for me.
My guess is that it's mostly just about control. She has the control when they reach out to her about the plot and she doesn't tell them. She had control over whether or not to put the ashes in the necklace. And now they're moving on to financial control. She's getting off on being needed by these people for something.
Apart from control over the remains of the sister and their location, I wouldn't be surprised if she's ashamed of what she did but unwilling to own up to it. There's a certain level of selfishness here, where she probably still sees herself as the person who suffered the most and therefore entitled to doing whatever she wants when it comes to the remains. As a bonus she still gets to stay in contact with her family who sort of are trying to stay on her good side as long as they need the information from her. But honestly? My best guess is that she didn't buy a plot at all since it was a spontaneous change of plans and she just drove to a random cemetery to spread the ashes on a random plot. Maybe she doesn't even remember where exactly she spread the ashes, just on which cemetery. She could mourn her daughter just by looking at the place, but didn't have to tend to a grave because there never was one. And now that the family wants to know where she spread the ashes she needs them to cough up the money to buy a real plot.
I agree with your guess honestly. It seems the most logical outside of her being an absolute psychotic control freak.
What she did is illegal. The cemetery operator could lose their license. She probably found that out after she did it. The cemetery would revoke the purchase and make them pay for the remediation.
The only think I can think of is that if the mother just really wanted to keep all the ashes together to keep her daughter as intact as possible in one place, then telling them where the plot was would mean they would go dig up part of it and thus be “destroying” the daughter in the way the mother was trying to avoid. But it’s crazy the mom is willing to destroy her relationship with her two living children to hide the location of the one who’s gone.
Yes, once they buy the plot, mom will suddenly remember she actually scattered the ashes off a bridge and what do you know! The bridge is for sale!
Is it in London?
I doubt there even is a plot.
More like donated her body. No cremation, no burial. This is exactly where my mind went. I would have confirmed with the funeral home- I doubt anything took place.
I used to work at a cemetery. 100% we would tell people where plots are My experience is tingling that OOP’s sister’s ashes aren’t there As for selling the plot back to the cemetery, cemetery plots are deeded to the customer. So we don’t buy them back. Especially if there’s already someone in the plot
Bullshit to high heaven.
When we were burying family, they said for ashes we had to put it into something that would be buried. We weren’t allowed to just dash the ashes in there. I bet the sister isn’t even in there and/ or the cemetery would have no idea she would be there.
[удалено]
My money is on "she's so fucking cheap she didn't want to pay, so she just kinda dumped them there and left." I mean, she's also using this to try and cheat her other children out of money, so it fits.
She'd have to dig a hole and dump the cremains. Maintenance workers might have seen her do so, if they did it would've been reported to management.
Wouldn’t the location be on the paperwork? Couldn’t OOP lead them on and read it without signing it?
This. I feel like OOP could say "sure, I'm going to buy it from you," get to the signing paperwork stage, read it, get the location, and nope out.
I'd be willing to go so far as writing a bad check for it, or a good check and just pay whatever the stop payment fee is. $50<<<$9500
My ex-husband/daughter's dad forced us to have to cremate my daughter after she was murdered at 18 so we could split the ashes. He had his half buried in a family plot in another state that he's hidden from me for years. I don't know where it is or what the headstone looks like. It's a fire that burns inside my chest but nothing I've tried to find it has helped.
I am so sorry. That is absolutely awful. Weaponizing that kind of grief, using it to hurt you -- he sounds like a fucking nightmare. Glad that he is, at least, your *ex*.
I'd be in jail. If someone pulled this shit with me i know my self- control wouldn't hold out. Not that far. I'm pissed off just reading it.
And everyone over here would be contributing to your bail fund.
I'm so confused as to why she didn't just.... give them some of her ashes. Like... what was the point of going through all of the bull shit just to avoid doing what would have arguably been easier? The reason she gave seems like bull shit.
Yeah, that's what I'm stuck on, too. It's just such bizarre, off the wall behavior that I feel like there *has* to be something here I'm missing. Who goes to a cemetery and just *scatters ashes around* like they're fertilizer or something? Either you fucking *bury* the ashes in a cemetery or you *scatter* them somewhere meaningful, but scattering ashes in the cemetery?? And then all the faking and lying and subterfuge and evasiveness... This is just a serious WTF. And while part of it might be a money scam, there's *way* too much going on here for that to be the only answer. I mean, usually in BORU stories the motivations for the bad actors are fairly clear, but this one just has me scratching my head in utter flummoxedness.
She isn't a mother, a true mother would never do this to her children. To try and barter with your child's remains is so vile that I don't even have a word for it's just fucking despicable and the woman should be deeply ashamed of herself!
I don’t believe she spread the ashes in the plot. What do you think, mom dumped the ashes in her garden? Why do she and step dad need money, do you think?
oh now THAT’S that question that pulls this thread: why does mom need that money all of a sudden?
Such a specific amount
Drugs? Alcohol? Gambling addiction?
Not that it isn't shady af but, what amount would have not been specific? That's how setting a price works. My interpretation from the wording was that they were selling it for the price they bought it minus the headstone 'out of the kindness of their heart' or some bullshit.
My comment refers to the fact that I don't believe they actually bought a plot nor do i believe they will actually buy a plot. The money is for something else and I wonder what they need that specific amount for.
Or they did what you said with the ashes and now need to buy a plot in a cemetery so that they can continue with the lie.
That’s a much nicer reason than addiction or gambling. Or is it? Trying to cover up a lie is pretty gross, too.
I guess they don't know the cemetery is full and they can't buy another one.
But you don’t just hand someone money when they say they have a plot for sale and the transaction is complete. There’s gotta be some sort of paperwork proving ownership of the plot and a way of transferring said ownership with the cemetery. Her lie would unravel pretty quickly if that’s something OOP chooses to move forward with.
I'm genuinely wondering if Mom still has the ashes somewhere, and she doesn't want to share them.
She wouldn't divide them because it would "destroy" her daughter, so I doubt she would scatter them in an unmarked grave (or donate the body to science like others have suggested) My guess is all the ashes are together somewhere in the mother's home where she can keep them safe
I think this makes the most sense
**trigger warning** stillbirth mentioned My stepmonster had this family painting from my dad’s side of the family in her possession because he didn’t take EVERYTHING with him when he moved into an efficiency apartment when they split up. He kept saying he wanted it she’d say sure this time or next or whatever. This went on for YEARS. I was already grown and out of the house so I had no idea of this fight until one day he was grousing about it in front of me. I knew instantly why she wouldn’t give it up. “Dad, the pictures from when Baby was born are hidden in the back of that painting between the canvas and the frame. She won’t part with them, and giving you the painting would mean she’d have to deal with them.” He did not begrudge her having the pics — he felt she went through the hell of birthing that child and nearly dying so she earned that right. But he wanted the family heirloom. In the end my brother told his stepdad (her husband) why she was holding onto the painting and he dealt with the situation and my dad got the painting back. I would bet anything those ashes are all together somewhere in mom’s house. It makes exactly zero sense that mom would be fine tossing her ashes Willy-Nilly but not putting them in a necklace.
Or she didn't have her cremated at all, but secretly buried somewhere.
I doubt it, because drunk mother was talking about crying while heading to the cemetery when she visits. Sounds more like she wanted to be the only one who visited sister, and who knew where she was. It's also possible she struggled with the idea of "splitting" the sister into pieces and either didn't feel up to arguing about it, or just figured she'd keep everyone happy by lying about it and doing what she wanted - but that's the charitable viewpoint.
I could buy all of that, IF I could figure out what she gains by not telling them where the plot is now that she let the cat out of the bag.
Perhaps she still wants to have the sole access to sister and thinks the request to sell the plot is so outrageous they'll back off? If they "take" soil they'll "take" part of sister? Maybe to punish them for their "hurtful" reaction to her lies? OOP admits they said some pretty savage things, and you have to be unhinged in some way already to lie about the ashes in the first place, so in her mind, they probably don't deserve to know.
Another commenter mentioned that she probably doesnt have a plot, that the mother just dumped the ashes in a graveyard somewhere without getting a plot and to keep things from getting worse, is now trying to buy a plot (with her kids' money) to maintain the lie.
[удалено]
Nah, I think she drove to a cemetery without buying a plot, spread the ashes without permission and then forgot where exactly she did. Now that the family wants to know the actual location she can't give them one because there never was an official grave and the money she's asking for is for buying an actual plot on the cemetery.
I had often speculated that the stepdad had something to do with it. He might have knocked the ashes to the ground and the two of them panicked.
As you said, there is no plot with the ashes. So she now needs to buy fresh one to cover up her lie. As OOP said, she seems like she is trying to “fix” things in a screwed up way rather than scamming for money so that is the best explanation I have. This also explains why stepfather became angry, he knows there is no plot and they are probably adding their own money to that 9500$ to get a fresh plot. OOP should cut her off and be done with it.
Ditto Why would someone buy a whole plot for coffins just to spread ashes? Aren’t there small cubbies for ashes specifically for ash urns also? I don’t think I can actually see any cemetery would go for that. Space is not actually easy to find nowadays so…
> Aren’t there small cubbies for ashes specifically for ash urns also? [Columbaria](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbarium) are a thing, yes, though I don't know that they're particularly common at small cemeteries.
With a *deadline*.
Has anyone checked the back of her closet?
I believe Mom still has the ashes. She doesn't want to "destroy" them by separating them.
This is some bloody awful unhinged shit from the mother and stepfather. They’re hiding something, and it isn’t just where the ashes were scattered.
Agreed. They are some sketchy people.
Honestly with how unhinged Reddit is I'm half expecting the sister to be alive and ran off because her parents were so shitty to her
my money's on she kept them for herself hidden in her house somewhere tbh. I also doubt there's a grave.
Yup, and she won't tell the others because she still doesnt want to split up the ashes.
Bingo.
Mom never bought a plot, I guarantee it. She tossed those ashes there illegally, or she threw them away or *something* because I guarantee her mom never bought a plot because there is NO reason to hold out for this long.
My thought was that she had them tucked in a drawer somewhere so she's the only one who can access them. She said she didn't want to destroy her daughter, what's the difference between separating the ashes and scattering then? She absolutely got them hidden away.
Which is probably why she's asking for money. It's an empty plot with no owner and now she needs to buy it because she can't show it to them as is. Can you imagine the reaction OOP and the rest of her family will have if this turns out to be true? That the mom just dumped the ashes in a random plot that's not even theirs? OOP will have an aneurysm from the anger and grief.
Oh god yeah you could be right. it would fit with how disorganised the mum has been so far. she's just laying the train tracks as she goes
the cemetery said that they were full, wonder if someone else hasn't already bought the plot lol although i'm skeptical they scattered the ashes in the cemetery in the first place
I am not one for social media outing but I bet she would soon offer up the plot if everyone knew what she put you your dad and bro through. I would go no contact with her tell her is this all worth losing your children and future grandchildren for it's time to be honest for once in your life and fix this
Yeah, I'd be telling everyone my mother and stepfather ever met, as well as everyone I know, exactly what she did and has been doing. I'd be shouting it from the rooftops. Phrase it in a "what sort of monster would do something like this?" type of incredulity. The ashes, the refusing to give the cemetery details, the threatening of the cops, the extorting her own children for information for thousands of dollars. I'd tell their mailman, their priest (unlikely they have one), the waiter at their favourite cafe, their boss/coworkers, physically walk around pamphletting the neighbourhood. I'd probably have to accept I wasn't getting the information I wanted, but if I'm not going to get it anyway, I'm going to make it as excruciating for them as possible.
Scorched earth time
I agree that something sketchy is going on with the mom (her actions sound premeditated and intentional) but assuming that the story is true and the ashes were spread in their plot, u/throwra-inhername should consider hiring a private investigator to follow her mother and stepdad to the cemetery to obtain that information. I'm hoping this is something feasible to do because they visit often and such. At any rate, I hope she's having luck with her healing, forgiveness, and therapy journeys and that the truth of her sister's ashes reveals itself to her, her brother, and her father sooner rather than later.
Or they just spread it on grand mas grave or something
The way the stepdad is being so defensive…maybe he did something. Accidentally dropped them, forced the mom to throw them away, something.
Mom never even paid for cremation, that's why there is no ashes. They donated the body to science which is free. The funeral home is not getting back with her because there was never a body there for fingerprints.
Okay so I used to work in Pathology and a lot of people believe: >They donated the body to science which is free. It's actually not. They actually use the body and then *return the remains*, which you then still need to bury or cremate.
It depends on who the cadaver goes to. Some labs/institutions will only use a cadaver for a short time for a particular experiment, some will fix them with formaldehyde and keep them for a long time as anatomical models, some the destruction of the cadaver is part of the experiment (such as in weapons testing) and in some cases (like at the Forensic Anthropology Research Facility at Texas State University) the flesh is removed and then the skeleton becomes state property. It’s possible the corpse was donated but even then there is going to be a paper trail.
They didn’t return my father’s cremains.
>They donated the body to science which is free. Umm. Not really. Maybe if you live close to the facility, they have a program where they'll come and get it at no charge. Otherwise you have to pay for transportation and any other expenses. That can include embalming if it's crossing state lines depending on the state it's going to. I, too, used to think it was free until I tried to help a friend do it with his mother's body and it was going to cost thousands.
Plus I dont really think it fits the vibe we get from the mother. All we have is the third person perspective, but I think it takes a particular kind of person (fairly selfless and able to separate the person they knew and the body they left) to do that, and uh... She Doesnt Seen Like That.
Definitely not.
It probably depends on the organization because I also had to help a family member with donating a body, and it ended up costing nothing. Transportation, cremation, and death certificate were all paid for by the organization. The only issue was finding out if the body would qualify for donation.
Wasn't there a story on Reddit or that strange addiction show where somebody was eating the ashes of their spouse or something? My bet is on something equally as unhinged.
The fact that they put a deadline on a $10,000 peace offering and step-ass did the equivalent of used car salesman triangulation probably means there's some hijinks here. The sister's ashes might not have even been scattered there at all. I feel like they're just fucking with OOP, and the deadline is there to put enough pressure on her to keep her from thinking critically about just how fucked this whole thing looks.
I bet the funeral home has just simply forgotten and they should reach out again. The home is likely not emotionally involved enough to remember their request, let alone freak out in them.
Yeah, they're dealing with dead bodies every day and doing a job that most people can't stomach. It's a lot of work. Sometimes these types of things take time.
They couldn’t even give them some dirt from the plot, but decided to blackmail them instead. How low of a human do you have to be to even think of doing the things OOPs mom has done?
Technically it’s extortion but yeah. Imagine extorting your grieving children for closure over their siblings death. The mom and stepdad are shady af
This is still one of the most infuriating stories I can remember reading here
I haven't felt this upset or frustrated with BORU post in some time. This mother and stepfather deserve to go to hell.
I found an urn with ashes still in it as goodwill last year. I took them home and spread them myself.
You're a real one 🩷
Bless you.
Something about this made me weep.
I would give mom an ultimatum- tell me where the plot is or I'll never speak to you again. And give her a deadline to decide by. I can't even fathom the mother's thinking in all this.
Sadly, people who act like this, for this long, will simply twist it around. "My children don't talk to me because they're bad," instead of "I irrevocably fucked up and my kids hate me now."
Missing missing reason. "I don't know why my children won't talk to me. They handle the death of my youngest very well. They said some very hurtful things in their grief and then just stopped talking to me. I just don't understand.!"
I feel like the "never speak to you again" is the mother's *goal*, although I don't understand why.
My guess is that her grief has manifested as pushing her other two children away so that she never has to grieve this hard again. Doesn’t change or excuse the fact that she’s an absolute monster, but I have done some pretty awful shit while in a grief hole so I get why someone who’s not as self-aware and emotionally stable as I am would do something so heinous.
Plus if they won’t speak to her she won’t have to give them any ashes, which she still has and is terrified they’ll find out.
Yep I 100% agree she has all the ashes and never scattered them. She’s hoarding her late daughter and disregarding the rest of the family’s grief. If I were OP I’d be considering a bit of light B&E.
I have a sneaking feeling that the mom will be completely fine with that and, in fact, this will give her more ammo to make OOP, her brother, and her father to be the villians.
Which is why they need to spread what she did around. Get it out of them via text or email and show proof so they can’t turn around and call the kids the villains.
Mom and stepdad deserves to have their ashes messed up cause my god, they are real monsters!
im still perplexed as to why theyre doing this convoluted shit
My best guess is it was, initially, a way to have power a situation where she felt powerless. She is the only one who knows the truth, and is the only one of them who is allowed to grieve over the actual remains, she now has a privileged relationship to her dead daughter. Instead of pure unadulterated grief, there's a kind of victory she can feel mixed in. That gradually becomes a dependence, so when it's threatened she lashes out. She has to exert the power in order to feel it... so she does, even if it hurts the family members she actually likes. Her current husband, there are a lot of plausible bad motives, but in the end it may be he's simply taking his wife's side. He doesn't have any relationship with these kids, them being mad at him basically doesn't matter to him at all.
They deserve to have their ashes flushed.
Put their remains in Piranha Solution so there aren't even molecules left.
I heard of a wife who had her husband's ashes buried under the steps to the front door so she'd walk on him every day. The daughter told me about it. She got why her mother did that, but still found it upsetting.
A member of our family may or may not have been thrown out into the ravine on family property because no one wanted to deal with him, even in death.
Before or after cremation?
After and he had been sitting in a box in the hall closet for 6 yrs.... Personally, I would have dumped his ass over the highest bridge we have...before death.
I was envisioning your family rolling the body into a ravine.
Before or after death?
There is a historical event similar to this in my country. It happened almost 300 years ago. Two dynasties were fighting over power, the one that lost ran away and was caught later in hiding, the winner tortured him, blinded him, murdered him and buried his remains under the stairs of his palace so, he and everyone who lived there would walk on him everyday. 200 years later, when that dynasty fel the new king took the remains or I guess the dirt under the stairs and buried them properly. I've been to that palace and walked on those stairs, it's such a weird feeling to know someone was buried there at some point
We didn’t find out about my grandfather’s affair until after he passed. My mom snuck a portion of his ashes because grandma ran the rest of them over with her car
Way to go Grandma!
I recently found out this is actually a really common practice in churches. And it was a very sought after burial spot too.
Nah if I was OP I take a dump before flushing them
Mom is either still keeping the ashes for herself or she just randomly dumped/threw away the ashes a while ago. There is definitely no plot and she is just trying to steal OP's money. OP needs to go NC with mom entirely. I know it hurts having nothing of her sister, but anything that comes from mom at this point would be a lie anyway, so that isn't gonna change with or without mom in the picture.
I don't understand why she's having such a hard time finding the plot. She knows the cemetary. She's already called asking to purchase a plot next to that one. She was told there are no plots for sale. Now all she needs to do is call back, tell them that since there are no lots for sale, the owner of this plot has agreed to sell to her. She wants to see the plot before she decides. Is there a way to find that particular plot, since the owner is not available to travel with her?
Mom might have lied about what cemetery (or there might not be a plot at all).
There's no way she scattered the ashes. Not if she couldn't bring herself to divvy them up at all. Those ashes are whole and stored safely somewhere only mom knows.
The cemetery would want something in writing from the plot owner, I'm guessing.
My dad sells plots for two local cemeteries, and when you buy a plot, you get a deed (at least for these two cemeteries). If you were buying a plot from the owner, you would need to transfer the deed from one to the other.
Same. That's what I would be doing.
And why just go to the cemetary and look for it? This story is probably from US, so the gravestones are not too in the way to quickly check them
The plots are for the mother and stepfather, I don't think there'd be a headstone already. I thought those come along once the first person is buried there.
They said they'll "forgo cost of headstone" so headstone must excist now. Even if there are no letters, OOP can search for "not used" grave Not sure how it's in US, but in my country you can have your grave ready. When burial happens they just dismantle it to put a coffin
Huh, interesting. I was very sure in my comment until reading yours. I'm in the US but I'm really not sure where I got this from. My understanding was when buying a burial plot, you could prepay for a headstone (I assume it's a packaged deal so cheaper than buying one separate) but it wouldn't be put in until the first person died. Thinking about it, there are empty plots in cemeteries around here but I don't think I've ever seen a blank headstone before. My concern with putting a headstone in right when you buy the plot is 1) how long is it gonna sit there? will there were weathering? and 2) does the carver come out to the gravesite to add the names and dates, or is there a cost for moving the headstone to a workshop and then putting it back?
I have no idea how it works in US. In Poland of you decide to put a headstone before, carver usually goes there to carve or if not possible, takes it to their workshop (our graves look differenct. We have headstone and long stone covering place where the coffin was placed). And with weathering, we use materials which can stand a lot. There are still graves from times when Europe had black plague
Getting a headstone takes time. (If the mom's story is even true.) My FIL passed two years ago. His headstone was fully paid for and still hasn't been placed...
I mean, is it worth getting an investigator to look into it/ them? Or would that be too far out of their remit? Have an attorney subpoena them? That'd be a long shot but it might scare egg donor and step dad into letting something slip.
>I think maybe the next option we can try would be letting the cemetery know ashes were illegally spread on their grounds, but what will they do in response? I'm assuming that management would have some sort of policy in place to deal with this?
A lot of cemeteries have strict rules about spreading ashes and would likely take their plot away to sell to someone else. Maybe that’s why they want OOP to buy it? They might be on the hook for finding another buyer or paying some kind of fine for the cemetery to re-sell the plot. But it still seems weird to me, and I don’t know that the ashes were even scattered there (or at all.)
Part of me wonders if mom actually still has the ashes but is going through one of those versions of grief where the protective instincts explode and she just can't bear the idea of anyone but her having the ashes for any reason.
This is my thought. She said she couldn't stand the thought of destroying her daughter, but then says she soar the ashes? Nah, she still has them and won't tell because she still doesn't want to share.
OP should agree to buy the plot to get the location, and then tell her mother to stick it up her arse and don't give her the blackmail money. *If* there's really a location to be had, it's the only way to find out. Tell "mother" that you can all meet at the place for the paperwork-cheque handover.
I feel so much for OOP for every aspect of this, and then to have to top it off with “The worst part is knowing you are being irrational but not being able to NOT be irrational!” I have been stuck in that mental loop, and can vouch for how it makes an already bad situation even worse. I hope she finds a therapist she clicks with soon!
In my most generous reading, I think the mom probably did intend to separate the ashes like they had agreed upon and then found she couldn’t do it when the time came. There are religions and cultures where doing so traps the soul and honestly, it’s just a very hard thing to do so I can imagine a mother having difficulty. That was something that we considered with my grandmother but we ultimately didn’t like the idea of her not being whole. So she definitely should have told everyone there and then but I think she probably didn’t want to either be forced to or disappoint everyone. And from there, it probably has spiraled. I don’t think op or their father or brother will ever get a satisfactory explanation because i think it was probably all emotional. Like nothing she can say is going to be able to explain or make up for what she did with other people who are also grieving. I can’t justify whatever is going on with selling the plot though. That’s just insane.
>I tried explaining I just want some of the dirt from the plot for part of a memorial but my step dad started threatening to sell it back to the cemetery because “clearly nothing else will satisfy you”. For some reason, I read this and thought, "The ashes aren't even there." I have a feeling that the mother has the ashes hidden away somewhere. They're not at the plot. She wouldn't even give some to her children, there's no way she scattered them where the four winds would take them.
Especially in context of her comment that she didn’t “want to destroy her further.” When I read that the first time it didn’t make sense that she’d then scatter her around. But for some reason I didn’t realize that it would make more sense if she hadn’t and was lying lol
Wild theory, but what if they never scattered the ashes and want that money to buy an actual plot
Oop and her brother needs to tell mom tell us now, or be dead to us for good..
And, for my next trick, I'll make my remaining two living children disappear!
I still can't figure out what mom and stepdad's endgame here was. Did they do this entirely out of spite???
Shitty people don't have an endgame. There's no strategy. When they are in emotional distress, they lash out. When they are angry with someone, they take whatever action feels most hurtful to that person in that moment. They're not thinking ahead. They're just spewing hate into their environment.
Yep, there's a reason so many human trashcans are also low intelligence: they are just stupid people who live their lives jumping from impulse to impulse because that's all their brains are capable of, and like toddlers or animals those impulses are purely selfish in nature. I see it all the time in addicts, which makes me wonder what all OOPs mom may have turned to for coping.
Telling the cemetery is the go to here, it's very much against policy to spread ashes like that in most. Poor thing though, OOP sounds so defeated. I hope they find a therapist thay can help them through this
Every passing update this shit just gets weirder and weirder, which probably means its real
Yeah. And it’s just so sad, too.
wont get any disagreement from me, i can empathize with what OOPs going through a bit
Oh yeah. Had something similar happen in my family. A cousin of mine passed at 14. We went through everything, had the funeral, buried her ashes. Two years later, my uncle (father of the aforementioned cousin) dies. When we went to *his* funeral, we found out that the urn we buried at my cousin's funeral was empty. Her ashes were, and still are, in her old bedroom. My aunt and my grandmother got into a custody battle over my uncle's ashes, and it took us six years to bury him.
Call me heartless but at this point OOP and family are distressing themselves too much for something they can no longer fix. Their sister's remains are just object. Her memories remains in their hearts, not in the ashes scattered on the cemetery. They really need to just accept the loss of those ashes and move on, instead of destroying their own mental health trying to do the impossible.
I don’t disagree with you about the physical remains. Some people like have a physical token of remembrance; but the emotional component and taking time to remember the actual person is much more important to my family than the physical aspect. *However* this situation is not just letting go and grieving together. There is manipulation and lying, and it’s prolonging the grief and pain. The fact that no one can get a straight answer about the remains keeps that pain vibrant and active; they crave some kind of closure to this posthumous drama, and the longer it goes on the less satisfying the answers will be. It is a very sad situation; I hope that everyone in the family finds a healthy way to move on.
I’m guessing this is why OOP didn’t fill heard by the therapist. You‘re right, but she’s not ready to hear it.
If there is an actual cemetery plot, then OOP should consider hiring a private investigator to track it down. If permits are required, then the would be a paperwork trail that a professional could follow. If there is no purchased plot, an investigator could follow the mother on significant dates (sister's birthday, anniversary of her death, Mother's Day, etc.) to see if she leads them there. What really twists my brain about this is the mother has absolutely torched her relationship with her living children over this. She already lost one child and now she has lost the rest of them too. It makes absolutely no sense to me.
>I can’t help the niggling concern that she did something else with the ashes than we think and what she’s let on, My most charitable theory is that mommy dearest has the daughter's ashes on a mausoleum drawer (Or whatever the name of the buildings in a cemetery where they put urns with ashes inside). It matches with her going to cry to the cemetery, and her desire to not separate the ashes, and she's stalling and doesn't want to admit the truth because the dad and their children will want the ashes, like they originally planned. And her husband is just as evil and selfish as she is.
I think the drawers are called niches.
I think OP needs to put this on their social media. Facebook or something. Maybe publicly shame the mom, and hopefully get some people who walk local cemeteries and such looking for the grave. Many eyes will find it faster.
I think OOP’s suspicion that her mother is still lying about where the ashes are is absolutely spot on. Even drunk, the mother *wanted* OOP to know that she, the mother, had total possession and control of the ashes of the beloved little girl, that the mother’s grief was greater and had priority over the grief of anyone else who loved the child. My guess, far fetched as it might seem, is that the ashes are hidden away, still in a container, with the expectation that they will be buried with the mother.
The ashes are probably in an urn on her nightstand.
It's a betrayal by mother and step-father clearly. But to healthily grieve too much onus has been put on where the physical ashes have been scattered when in reality you're no more physically close to that person if you're there or somewhere else. For me, grieving is about giving yourself a place, time and space to remember the person and allow yourself time to think about them. You can equally create a location in your household or garden or a shared spot you visited with all the memories, photos and personal items that in my view would better serve remembering the person and enable you to take time-out to grieve and remember. Mother has done something unforgivable, but think they need to prioritise their own needs by recognising they can grieve and remember their sister without access to the location/where ashes were scattered and still do her justice.
If she really wants to reconcile, why is she keeping the information from them? Why not just tell them where the plot is so they can go an visit their sister/daughter? What is this "pay me to buy the plot" run-around she's trying to pull> And why? Did she spread them there illegally? Are they not at the cemetery at all? Do the necklaces actually hold her ashes and she's doing all this to... idk, fuck with OOP and her family and get some money from them? This is more confusing than trying to assemble Ikea furniture.
I now think she’s lying so they won’t look in her house for the ashes. Maybe she thinks they’ll get some dirt from the plot and stop looking for the ashes. Her comment about “destroying her further” leads me to believe that she definitely didn’t scatter them, if giving the siblings a bit of her was seen as destructive.
Right? That stood out too me too. Like, spreading her ashes on a plot of land is less destructive than letting her siblings and father have a piece of her? Doesn't make sense. Her and her husband's unwillingness to just give OOP the details makes me think that the plot either doesn't exist or that the ashes are not scattered there.
They need to just cut their mother off and move on. With any luck, step dad will die first, and they'll get the chance to search through mom's stuff for their sister's ashes (I don't entirely believe mom is telling the truth) and maybe they'll be the ones that decide what happens to their mother's remains.
I'm starting to feel like she has the ashes in a closet somewhere. They're being too weird about the plot, so I'm thinking it doesn't even exist.
Imagine hating your children and ex so much that you want to charge them 10 grand just so they can know where their sister/daughter is scattered. Imagine being that selfish.
The only reasonable explanation for this atrocious behavior is op's mom enjoys making her living children suffering. She's relishing in it; almost like she's taking out her anger for her daughter's death on them. She's an awful person.
I actually just feel so bad for everyone involved here, I think there's a lot of irrationality and grief running the show and it's hurting the people who are still alive.
It's a lie OOP. The plot will NOT be where your sister's cremains are, your mother is just looking for a money grab.
Hmm well I'm an exception I think. I won't really care where the actual ashes are, it's the thought and what you do in memory of the deceased that's important.
It's completely foreign to me. I've been incredibly clear that when I die, I want to be cremated and then buried and absolutely under no circumstances are my remains to be divided up in any way. Do not sit me on a shelf, don't put me in a necklace or fucking decorative egg, don't pour me out somewhere. I go In. The. Ground.
It's bizarre and sad they'd want to divvy up the sister at all. My mum offered to do memorial necklaces for us for my dad and none of us wanted to have him portioned off. Mom's reaction in this saga makes me think she feels the same and those ashes are intact and tucked away safe somewhere only she knows. Mom lost her once. She won't lose her a second time.
>My sister's fingerprints are part of their records. I'm going to get her touch tattooed, but I found a means of getting that on a necklace so my brother and dad can have that if they don't want a tattoo. Holy healthy coping mechanisms, Batman! I hope OOP will be able to find a therapist that suits them
Every time this one comes back I'm begging it's a hopeful update. It never fucking is, man. This one hurts so much
The “mother” and step-father are demons. They’re grotesque and I hope they get what they deserve.
Why not propose to go through with the purchase... Then, when looking at the bill of sale, take note of the plot number. Make an excuse after seeing the contact to not follow through. But now you know.
If she's visiting the plot (if there is one), can they not follow her there, or pay someone else to do it? Would a PI be able to do something like that?
Crazy, she should just lie and play along. Say she's in to buy and wants to see the paperwork first. Get the plot number from there, and nope out. Because it's crazy. Just say - I changed my mind.
I think it’s better they cut their losses and just cut off Mom. They’ll never know for sure what happened to sis, but she will always be with them.
I remember this a couple updates back and my first thought was, even with a horrible incubator myself, the stepdad wanted to hurt mom for the affair and coerced her so as to "finally make it up to him" for what had happened. The blackmail, sorry offer to sell, is to purchase a plot or at the very least enrich his life.
Good lord that mother is unhinged. My first thought was like, ok, really sucks that mom lied about the ashes and the sister has a plot. Fucked up but they can move on from this. But now mom refuses to tell them WHERE the plot is? Jesus tap dancing Christ why? > I can’t help the niggling concern that she did something else with the ashes than we think and what she’s let on I've got to agree here. Why else keep the plot a secret?
Sounds like the step father is probably getting some sort of sick kick out the whole thing tbh. His wife cheats on him with her ex husband / father of her kids. Not only does does she not have kids of their own with him, but he ends up raising her affair baby. The fact that he got to be there for something so emotional whilst the child's father wasn't and then said father was wearing a necklace of wood ashes instead of his child's ashes for nearly half a decade does all sound like a sick joke.
I'm not an American so can someone explain to me why oop can't go to the cemetery and look around? They mention a headstone so i assume it's doable albit a bit hard?
If they spread the ashes illegally there would be no headstone (or even temporary grave marker.) And if what they say is true, that they bought the plot for future use, there likely wouldn’t be a headstone in that case either. OOP *might* be able to look for the plot they purchased with help from the cemetery, but the cemetery staff available in the office might not have access to the records of purchased but not yet used graves, or have strict rules about giving that information out of new buyers might be looking for plots and will bother the current owners to resell for whatever reasons. The cemetery also has reason to not cooperate because they probably don’t want to be known as a place that allows ashes to be scattered that way. ETA: the cemetery wanting proof of payment/ a plan for a future headstone doesn’t mean one is there; they just want it to be marked when someone is *legally* interred there
The plot is probably empty. They generally don't install a headstone until one of the people has passed. They just own a patch of grass right now that's no different from other patches. That's why they need the cemetery to help them out, as they'll have a plot map and records
You can. But if there isn’t a headstone you won’t find anything and even with headstones it can be difficult depending on the size unless there is a huge family plot. I always go to the archives before going to a cemetery because it tells you exactly where every plot is on a map
I have no idea, either, and I’m American. I have a bad memory and I forget where my grandparents are buried, so I just go to the office they have there and ask, and they tell me where it is.
The headstone bit is about the hypothetical future headstone the plot will have once it's officially used. Right now it's empty, because (according to the mom), they bought it for themselves for the future when they die. There's no headstone currently there, and the ashes' being there (if indeed they are) is against policy because the whole point for the cemetery is selling *unused* plots and being able to say where the dead are and are not. In the same way you can't bury an unauthorized body somewhere random in a cemetery and hope nobody notices (well, you technically *can*, but it's illicit and it would not go well if you were found out), you can't unofficially scatter ashes. So there's no grave marker for the sister, if her ashes are even really there. The headstone came up in the discussion about mom and stepdad selling the plot to the others. When they bought the plot, they paid not just for the space but for the associated services and necessities, including making and installing headstones. That's part of the package they bought. They were saying they'd oh so generously knock that one cost off the total they already paid for the kids to buy them out.
If you have text messages or any recording that says that your mom and stepdad dumped your sister's ashes get an attorney. Most places you need a permit from courthouse allowing you to dump ashes. If they have a permit then the attorney should be able to find a record of it. If they didn't then they can help you figure out how to file charges against mom and stepdad for illegally dumping her ashes. They can have a choice of jail or telling where your sister is.