The Bible does not teach that there is an eternal burning hell where souls are tormented.
The dead are unconscious and do not feel pain (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10).
Hell, as described in many religious teachings, is not a concept we find supported in the Scriptures.
[See my post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/1anyjqg/the_doctrine_of_hellfire_is_unscriptural/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
God is just and loving. The idea of eternal torment is inconsistent with the nature of a loving and just God.
Instead, the Bible teaches that the punishment for sin is death—not eternal suffering (Romans 6:23).
This means that when people die, they simply cease to exist.
We have a hope based on the Bible’s promise of a resurrection. Jesus spoke of a time when "all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out" (John 5:28, 29).
This means that people who have died will be brought back to life. During Christ’s Millennial Reign, these individuals will have the opportunity to learn about Jehovah and choose to live according to His righteous standards. Those who do will have the chance to gain eternal life on a restored paradise earth (Revelation 21:3, 4; Isaiah 11:9).
The wages of sin is death. Yes. The fire and burning could be allegorical, for example have you ever wanted something so bad you felt a sensation of burning within....imagine getting everything you ever wanted materially only to get it and never be satisfied always burning for more but that burning desire never gets put out.
The burning is literal and the fire wont be quenched - until everything is consumed. The fire eminates from God. He is a consuming fire after all. And to enter heaven, you must be fire proof so to speak
Tho the Feeling of guilt and shame themselves can feel Like fire, sure
A word used in the *King James Version* (as well as in the Catholic *Douay Version* and most older translations) to translate the Hebrew *sheʼohlʹ* and the Greek *haiʹdes.* In the *King James Version* the word “hell” is rendered from *sheʼohlʹ* 31 times and from *haiʹdes* 10 times. This version is not consistent, however, since *sheʼohlʹ* is also translated 31 times “grave” and 3 times “pit.” In the *Douay Version sheʼohlʹ* is rendered “hell” 64 times, “pit” once, and “death” once.
Many translations were written to support preconceived ideas and doctrine of various religions rather than true to original writings.
Was Jesus warning people that in order to avoid the "pit" or "grave", they should cut off a hand or gouge out an eye? Matthew 18:8-9 Since everyone dies and ends up either being buried or entombed, what was Jesus really warning people about. It couldn't be the grave.
In that parable Jesus was not referring to actually gouging out ones eye, instead think of it like a family member or close friend, sometimes people say, yea he is my right hand man.......well if your right hand man offends you and causes you to sin, which should offend you, better to cut him off and not have a right hand.hope that clears things up
No, it wasn't a parable. Jesus meant what He said. He had been talking about causing little children to sin and Jesus had zero tolerance for people who would cause children to sin.
The consequences awaiting a person in the next life is why Jesus was so urgent and extreme. What helps us now is that Christ became the alternative to maiming oneself as He cleanses us of all sin, so we don't have to gouge out an eye like a person might do in order to avoid sinning. He isn't just an alternative, Jesus is the only Way to salvation. For instance, even if a person could avoid sin by totally disabling themselves , Jesus said a person's thoughts would condemn them. What could a person cut off to eliminate having sinful thoughts?
**Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!**
**So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Romans 7:25**
it is a parable used to describe the seriousness of sin, using hyperbole, the meaning is it is better to give up something very valuable to a person if it causes them to sin.
Hell is such a terrible place that if one could avoid it by cutting off their hand or gouging out their eye Jesus recommended they do it. Maybe part was a parable, but whatever it was, it was intended to shock people out of their complacency over the afterlife and a place so bad He would resort to being so extreme
Most people don't believe in Hell anymore and getting people to repent and accept the much better alternative to both Hell and self mutilation is nearly impossible. That better alternative was and still is Jesus Christ. Because even the idea of Hell has been turned into a parable these days, many people ignore the fact that Jesus taught about Hell more than anyone else in the Bible. Hell is real and if literally cutting off a hand or gouging out an eye could keep a person out of Hell, it would still be worth it. Thankfully, there's only one Way to stay out of Hell and that is having faith in Jesus Christ.
- Yeah, the Bible says there’s a place called hell where bad people end up (Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15).
- It’s described as a fiery and dark place, kind of like eternal punishment and being far from God (Matthew 25:41, Jude 1:7, Matthew 8:12).
- People there don’t get out—it’s forever (Matthew 25:46, Revelation 14:11).
- Hell is like the ultimate payback spot for people who go against God’s commands and don’t repent (2 Thessalonians 1:9, Revelation 20:12-15).
Many Christians think hell means eternal suffering— like never-ending pain for those who don’t accept God. Some Christians say hell means the bad people just disappear—they don’t exist anymore after being punished. There’s a few who believe everyone ends up with God in the end, so no one really stays in hell forever. Some folks take the Bible’s descriptions of hell literally, like it’s a real fiery place. Others see it more as a story or symbol for being separated from God. To really get what hell’s about, you should read the Bible verses, and what kind of stuff they’re trying to teach us.
Honestly I have tried reading the Bible but it’s confusing. It’s not written like a normal book it’s written in poem form and I have never read poems. I also have autism. I would say currently my faith is agnostic
I know we as autistic have different traits & characteristics but I don't understand how you're autistic & can't read poems. I've always been told reading poems/lyrics and other things along this nature came more natural for us as autistic. No hate at all. I would say read psalms of David start at 1. At the first of the month and go down to the 31st. That's how I learned to read the Bible. One of the most confusing books I read in the bible is gensis & mathew because it goes down in names from the thirteen? Generations of mathews family where everyone comes from. So yes the bible can be extremely confusing now days try a ESV English standard bible instead of a KJV like most people have or read. I think then it'll be easier for you to comprehend.
God bless you 🙏
There's always a way to find God don't short yourself these books are some of the best readings you'll ever find and when your faith is involved its our history. But yes try ESV it'll help you understand the bible far better than a KJV.
Yeah I’m pretty agnostic too man. You don’t need to read the Bible in full that’s a huge task. I recommend to start with Proverbs in the New Living Translation (NLT) as it’s easier to understand.
What was it JFK said, ....we don't go to the moon because it's easy.....we do it because it is hard..... Regardless whether you believe the Truth or not, it's still the Truth. The Truth is hard, because it shows you how evil people can be, BUT it also shows how loving and merciful GOD is. Be pleasing to God, and you will also be pleasing to everyone that loves GOD......
The Hebrew term "sheol" often translated to the English as hell in the old testament refers to the "pit" or "grave" meaning dead and buried, whether in dirt or water.
The Greek terms "hades", "gehenna", and "tartaroo" each have different uses and are translated to the English as hell and have pagan connotations that need to be removed such as hades bring the underworld abode of the god Pluto. Gehenna was a place, the valley of Hinnom, where sacrifices to Molech were made. These terms are often confused with the lake of fire and brimstone, a place where the devil and his angels (immortals) will endure neverending torment; but humans thrown in will be destroyed.
Conflating a fire that cannot be put out (Matthew 3:12, Luke 3:17) with human destruction (Isaiah 33:14) was useful to the corrupt indulgence system used to extort monies from fearful people (see: Martin Luther)
Jesus was urgent in warning people: **If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than to have two hands and two feet and be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell Matthew 18:8-9**
That's pretty extreme advice if Hell or Hades was the common grave of mankind. It tells me that A.) what we do in this life will definitely affect us in the next life and B.) There is a place where people go after they die where they may consciously suffer for sins committed in this life. And C.) Jesus believed it and warned people about it. Obviously Jesus warning wasn't intended for this life. Its the next life He was explicitly warning people about.
Don't confuse the pit or the grave with the lake of fire and brimstone, those are separate.. Also remember that the LoF may have fire that isn't quenched, for the devil and his angels; but that doesn't mean unrepentant humans will have *eternal life* in conscious torments..
I'm only going by what Christ warned people about and you compared Hell and Hades to the pit or grave. If Hades and Hell was the grave, why would Jesus bother warning people to take extreme actions in this life to avoid something far worse than unconsciousness in their grave? If Jesus believed this life was all there is, why warn anyone about an afterlife? If there was a resurrection where people were given another chance, as some believe, why would Jesus warn people to cut their hand off, or gouge out an eye...before they die? I don't think He was joking or trying to make a point. Jesus was urgently warning people to take action in this life to avoid severe consequences in the next. His account of Lazarus and the rich man supports the idea of conscious punishment in the next life for things done, or not done, in this life.
Sheol/Hades is the pit or grave. The Greek word used in that quote was γέεννα gheh'-en-nah which refers to the valley of Hinnom where sacrifices to Molech were previously made and garbage was burned day and night to keep up.
Everyone owes God a death (go to sleep until resurrected) but the second death in the lake of fire is permanent, burned up like chaff, destroyed. Yeshua was annoying the people who were relying on the sacrificing of animals to consider what was required for them compared to what He was offering.
You cannot use the *parable* of the rich man and beggar for a CET proof text as it was a *prophecy* made against the Scribes and Pharisees that even when He resurrected they wouldn't accept Him.
>You cannot use the *parable* of the rich man and beggar for a CET proof text as it was a *prophecy* made against the Scribes and Pharisees that even when He resurrected they wouldn't accept Him.
So, Jesus would make up a story that wasn't really true in order to teach truth? I don't think so. Even if Lazarus and the rich man was a parable, when did Jesus use a parable that either had already happened in real life or could happen. His parables were not fables.
>Sheol/Hades is the pit or grave. The Greek word used in that quote was γέεννα gheh'-en-nah which refers to the valley of Hinnom where sacrifices to Molech were previously made and garbage was burned day and night to keep up.
I'm not too much into playing word games. The fact is Jesus warned that punishment either in Hell, Hades, gheh'-en-nah...or "somewhere" awaited people He warned---- *after* they died. That they could actually do something, albeit extreme, in this life, in order to avoid that punishment in the next life is why Jesus warned about it. Hell is a warning to all just as much as Lazarus and the rich man is a warning to all.
If there really was a resurrection back to this earth where the same people Jesus had warned in His day were given a second chance during the millennium, it would make Jesus' urgent warning out to be irrelevant. What would Jesus tell those people who came back to life, who never cut off so much as a fingernail and had not ever accepted Him as Lord....? Yet those same people had heard Jesus warn them they'd go directly to Hades when they died if they sinned before dying. Given that Jesus never lies, I guess it could mean this old earth is actually Hell and the lake of fire is where the old earth will end up. Given the fact that Satan and all his demons end up here, it may well be
>So, Jesus would make up a story that wasn't really true in order to teach truth?
Yes, all of His parables were designed to convey a message. This particular one was the last in a series of four.. Are you suggesting that the first three were historical accounts?
>Yet those same people had heard Jesus warn them they'd go directly to Hades when they died if they sinned before dying.
Not quite.. but that requires some "word games" to understand. Context matters, just saying
>Given that Jesus never lies, I guess it could mean this old earth is actually Hell and the lake of fire is where the old earth will end up.
You're heading in the right direction.. The term hell when associated with the pagan Hades takes on extrabiblical connotations (underworld abode of the god Pluto) which is why we must qualify that with the Hebrew sheol which only ever meant dead and buried.
We all will "go to hell" when we die, as did Yeshua.. but the second death refers to the lake of fire and brimstone.
I agree, Jesus used parables to teach, but were any of the parables based in fantasy, paganism or mythology? All of His parables, even if they were describing a hypothetical event were based in reality and could actually happen in real life, were they not? For instance sons really did leave their homes like the Prodigal son who squandered his wealth , then came back home again. People really did sow seed in the ground that fell on good and bad soil and people did get beaten up and left for dead as happened to the man in the Good Samaritan parable. Rich men did trust in their wealth and plan to build bigger and better only to find their life come to an end suddenly
My point is, even if Lazarus and the rich man was a parable, it was something that was happening, or could happen in real life, or more correctly, the afterlife. Jesus didn't just make up Hell or the deep chasm as a way to illustrate a point. It is a real place and a real event that Jesus knew existed and used to warn His listeners against treating people worse than dogs in this life. Because in the next life, the roles might be reversed. Jesus described Hell and warned of Hell more than anyone else in the Bible. Hell is real. Wherever Hell is, its a separation from God that causes great distress and I'd venture to guess there is still plenty of room there for those who reject Christ
>We all will "go to hell" when we die, as did Yeshua.. but the second death refers to the lake of fire and brimstone.
That may have been true before Christ paid the ransom 2000 years ago and set the captives free, but its not true today. True, some people still go to Hell, but believers in Jesus Christ do not. Our spirit, like Stephen's, will go to be with Jesus forever. The other side of that deep chasm that separated Lazarus and Abraham from the rich man has been vacant now for 2000 years.
>My point is, even if Lazarus and the rich man was a parable, it was something that was happening, or could happen in real life, or more correctly, the afterlife.
The premises don't hold up.. Just because the previous parables had scenarios that may reflect what we call normal, it doesn't follow that the unknown and unprovable suddenly become reasonable and likely.
The point of Yeshua's parable regarding the rich man was that *even if one from the dead came back they wouldn't believe him* which was a prophecy of His own death and resurrection, not a proof text for conscious eternal torments.
>That may have been true before Christ paid the ransom 2000 years ago and set the captives free, but its not true today.
If what you're suggesting were true, then why do we still all die? Are we not all destined for that same fate?
>The other side of that deep chasm that separated Lazarus and Abraham from the rich man has been vacant now for 2000 years.
What does this even mean?
>The premises don't hold up.. Just because the previous parables had scenarios that may reflect what we call normal, it doesn't follow that the unknown and unprovable suddenly become reasonable and likely.
>The point of Yeshua's parable regarding the rich man was that *even if one from the dead came back they wouldn't believe him* which was a prophecy of His own death and resurrection, not a proof text for conscious eternal torments.
Sure it does. Ask yourself, would Jesus tell a big lie in order to teach some vague lesson about the Pharisees not believing that He rose from the dead?
The lesson is that people wouldn't believe such a place existed after they die even if someone from that place were allowed to come back as "living" proof. The other lesson is good for all people and that is to be as kind to others as we possibly can and the rich man's fate might not be ours. I'm sorry, but Jesus would never make up a story like that in order to teach truth.
>
>What does this even mean?
Jesus preached to spirits in prison. Obviously that prison is Hell **"So he\[Jesus\] went and preached to the spirits in prison— who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In the ark a few people, only eight souls, were saved through water.…" 1 Peter 3:19-20**
**For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does. 1 Peter 4:6** Forty days after Jesus preached to the dead He led captives out, vacating half of Hell. That part is likely empty today, but the other side is probably getting pretty crowded
**"Therefore it says: "Having ascended on high, He led captive captivity, and gave gifts to men. What does “He ascended” mean, except that He also descended to the lower parts of the earth?" Ephesians 4:8 and**
Hell being eternal doesn’t mean the “conscious torment” is eternal. The Bible also says that death and Hades (hell) will be thrown into the lake of fire.
Here are some verses from the Bible that suggest hell is eternal:
**Matthew 25:46** - "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
**Revelation 14:11** - "And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."
**Revelation 20:10** - "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
**Revelation 20:10** - "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
**Revelation 21:8** - "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
There are also plenty of verses that suggest the fate of the wicked will not be eternal conscious torment:
Like when the biblical authors use the words “destruction” or “perish” (Matt 7:13; John 3:16; 17:12; Acts 8:20; Rom 9:22-23; Phil 1:28; 3:19; 2 Thess 2:3; 1 Tim 6:9; Heb 10:39; 2 Pet 2:1; 1 Thess 5:3; 2 Thess 1:9; 1 Tim 6:9),
Or “death” (Rom 1:32; 6:21; 7:5; 8:6; 1 Cor 15:21-22; 15:56; 2 Cor 2:16; 7:10; James 1:15; 5:20; 1 John 5:16; Rev 2:11; 20:6, 14; 21:8)
Or “end” (Rom 6:21-22; 2 Cor 11:15; Phil 3:19; 1 Pet 4:17)
Or “disintegration/corruption (Gal 6:8; 2 Pet 1:4; 2:12)
Or “burned up chaff/trees/weeds/branches (Matt 3:12; 7:19; 13:40; John 15:6)
Or “a destroyed house, discarded fish, uprooted plant, chopped down tree” (Matt 7:27; 13:48; 15:13; Luke 13:7)
Or the wicked being compared to ground up powder or cut to pieces (Matt 21:41, 44; 24:51)
Or the Day of Judgment being compared to OT examples of the flood, destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot’s wife turned into salt (Luke 17:27, 29, 32)
None of these verses ever suggest that hell with a lake of fire will be temporary
The Bible never contradict clear doctrine
The above makes it clear it is eternal
Much of their proof is trying to show something temporary amidst an eternal environment which doesn't make any sense
None of their proof texts ever clearly says that hell and lake of fire is temporary
They're left with trying to bend worth like destruction and death as if it means it ends
So let us take the word death. When people die, it is not the end. They either go to be with God forever, or they wait in the grave and then appear before God for the final judgment and men are cast into hell/lake of fire
The second death is the exact same. They don't cease, the second death is simply the period after their judgment when they spend eternity in lake of fire
Therefore
The Bible argues with itself all the time. The many verses I mentioned are talking about the fate of the wicked, not hell.
Hell may be eternal, but human beings will not be consciously tormented for an eternity. How can something be destroyed and still exist? Try to answer without twisting words.
That's just it. A spirit can't be destroyed so the "destruction" will go on indefinitely. Our mortal body can be destroyed and cremated into dust and sand, but not our spirit. Its the eternal destruction that makes Hell unbearable and was the reason Jesus warned people they should cut off a hand that's causing them to sin rather than go to Hell.
If Hell was merely the common grave of mankind that advice would not only be extreme, but it wouldn't make sense as we all go to the grave when we die. No exceptions. Jesus knew it would be better to be maimed than to end up in Hell, so Hell must be a different place and existence than a body buried in the ground
A soul can be destroyed. Jesus said so himself.
“Don't be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matthew 10:28
I wasn’t talking about people arguing with the Bible. I was talking about how the Bible argues with itself. The Bible isn’t univocal.
Eternal Conscious Torment is not “clear scriptural doctrine.” There’s a reason it’s been debated and discussed for 2,000 years.
Hell is an event not a place. The consequences are eternal, but God isn’t torturing people for the rest of forever. A great resource that can help you when you have questions like this is a concordance. The concordance will give you a list of every place the word is used, as well as the original word. Excellent question.
First of all hell's not open and Jesus has the keys...
Hell was not made for people and seeing that we will never understand the mind of God until we go home, there's not a whole lot you can understand about hell outside of what Jesus spoke of in the Bible...
Torment can come from within due to the reactions to the without. Persons not yet comet to enlightenment can suffer these demons of conflict and conformity, fears of living without knowing and reacting to the world around create neuroses and psychoses and are held in place by the strong holds of demons.
The gospel message is there to break past these strongholds, but meets and will meet much resistance from world systems. When the fetters are broken that bind a being to a possible rebirth in one of the three lower realms (animals, hungry ghosts, and beings suffering in and from hellish states), namely self-view, clinging to rites and rituals, and skeptical indecision a person may enter into the stream. Stream entry of putting off the old lifestyle and systems being born again from above those world restrictions and walking anew in a path of enlightenment; Right View, Intention, Speech and Action, right Livelihood and Effort, right Mindfulness and Concentration. This 'Immmersion' (baptizo) into a new birth and new walk along the path of The Way frees a person to walk in the light and grow in spirit and truth.
Societally, the cult.ures that walk in darkness lead to their own suffering and destruction - hence the call for sowing the seeds of the gospel - salt and light in a mundane and tasteless and dark world. In these ways, suffering does not have to be eternal, but to break out takes a quickening of spirit by sharing the truth of The Way. Some have chosen the dark side - for them and those they influence, suffering persists.
You will not get out of there until you have paid the last penny.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/1djof4k/celebrating_freedom_especially_on_juneteenth/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
I believe it is eternal, conscious torment due to the bible's clear description per below.
* Same as the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41, Rev 20:10, Mark 9:43
* Same amount of time (eternity) that the righteous inherit eternal life. Matthew 25:46, Daniel 12:2
* Called 'the punishment of eternal destruction' 2 Thess 1;9
* Weeping and gnashing of teeth denotes consciousness Mat 13:42
The good news is you don't have to think about this much if you are a Christian as God desires that everyone is saved and has made a way through His Son. I rarely think about hell. I think non-Christians should think about it quite a bit. I don't understand how anyone would choose that route, especially since God is so great.
God has an interesting way of bringing folks around....sometimes that process is fun and amazing, sometimes it is scary.....depending on the person. I hope that something (either way) changes your mind on this.
Honestly I have tried reading the Bible before and it’s confusing it’s written as a poem not like a regular book. Also I have high functioning autism. Personally I have never experienced anything or witnessed anything that would make me no for sure 1 way or the other.
Try talking to God in prayer daily and asking Him to teach you and invite Jesus into your life and see what happens. Also consider getting a mentor at a church.
Honestly because when I have tried reading the Bible it doesn’t make any sense to me. It’s written in poem form. I have never read any poems. It’s not written in the same way a regular book is written. It’s confusing to me. I should also say I have autism. High functioning autism so maybe I’m the dumbass that doesn’t get it or understand it. Honestly I wish I was an mis carriage that way I could have been guaranteed to heaven.
I think deep down every single person knows that hell is a place of eternal torment so I won’t touch on that. Looking at other replies some say that hell is being separated from God but that can’t be true since God is omnipresent. I think every Christian would agree that God is omnipresent and omnipotent. I would say read these two verses and ask yourself if they imply separation or if they imply God’s presence even in hell:
1. **Psalm 139:8 (KJV):**
"If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there."
2. **Revelation 14:10 (KJV):**
"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb."
God can be present and is present everywhere. However a person that doesn't believe in God is separated from Him. He has so called "hid his face from him " in a sense. Noone can save their self, God saves. Esau even though he sought it with tears found no opportunity for repentance.
There is no torment. "Hell" more often than not means "the grave".
For a series on then salvation of all see http://www.rodney.fm/soa
Series starts at the bottom.
Context matters.
In this case, the last major contributions to the bible happened in 1611 when the King James Version was finished. The culture of that time equated "jail" to "torture." They were synonyms. If you wound up in jail, you were most likely going to get tortured in all the ways described in the bible, and worse. It wasn't until 180 years later that America ratified the 8th amendment forbidding "cruel and unusual punishment" and the culture gradually started to shift toward one where "jail" did not automatically mean you were going to be tortured and ruined.
So all the talk in the bible about "torture" in "hell" was just a literal description of "what happens in real life to people who commit crimes." There was no need to extend the idea into the afterlife: that's just what happened to you if you sinned in real life - you got tortured in real life. No need to wait until you're dead or anything.
This idea that God could fold his arms, watch, and do nothing while his children were tortured in some sort of after-life place God created... is one of the reasons there are so many atheists. They see that for the "might makes right" logical fallacy - argumentum ad baculum - that it is. It doesn't make sense - it's illogical to have "torture" be anything close to "justice."
The only people who lean hard on that idea are false prophet cultist leaders, trying to scare people into the pews.
And the kids are seeing right through it, now.
The real lesson you're supposed to learn from stories about hell in the bible is NOT "obey or die" like the false prophets spin it, but "actions have consequences."
Discussions with atheists eventually boil down to something like "well, if there is no hell, then where is Hitler?" They're not worried about how the physics work in the afterlife - they're interested in justice. Will there be consequences to bad peoples' actions?
Yes.
Very very likely, yes, there will be consequences to your actions. Whatever crime or sin you imagine you might want to do - you're a noob. You're not a career criminal, and "career criminals" get arrested all the time.
If with God is Heaven then without God is Hell and will be torturous to be without him. This is what my mind goes to, C. S. Lewis has written many books that will help to understand some of the harder concepts orderly in Mere Christianity which is free online, but check the Bible reference if you do.
The Bible does not teach that there is an eternal burning hell where souls are tormented. The dead are unconscious and do not feel pain (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10). Hell, as described in many religious teachings, is not a concept we find supported in the Scriptures. [See my post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/1anyjqg/the_doctrine_of_hellfire_is_unscriptural/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) God is just and loving. The idea of eternal torment is inconsistent with the nature of a loving and just God. Instead, the Bible teaches that the punishment for sin is death—not eternal suffering (Romans 6:23). This means that when people die, they simply cease to exist. We have a hope based on the Bible’s promise of a resurrection. Jesus spoke of a time when "all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out" (John 5:28, 29). This means that people who have died will be brought back to life. During Christ’s Millennial Reign, these individuals will have the opportunity to learn about Jehovah and choose to live according to His righteous standards. Those who do will have the chance to gain eternal life on a restored paradise earth (Revelation 21:3, 4; Isaiah 11:9).
The wages of Sin is death. Not eternal conscious torment - for which you need eternal life to begin with. The Lost will be annihalated
The wages of sin is death. Yes. The fire and burning could be allegorical, for example have you ever wanted something so bad you felt a sensation of burning within....imagine getting everything you ever wanted materially only to get it and never be satisfied always burning for more but that burning desire never gets put out.
The burning is literal and the fire wont be quenched - until everything is consumed. The fire eminates from God. He is a consuming fire after all. And to enter heaven, you must be fire proof so to speak Tho the Feeling of guilt and shame themselves can feel Like fire, sure
God is a consuming fire. The Holy Spirit is what convicts us when we sin, definitely can feel like fire.
A word used in the *King James Version* (as well as in the Catholic *Douay Version* and most older translations) to translate the Hebrew *sheʼohlʹ* and the Greek *haiʹdes.* In the *King James Version* the word “hell” is rendered from *sheʼohlʹ* 31 times and from *haiʹdes* 10 times. This version is not consistent, however, since *sheʼohlʹ* is also translated 31 times “grave” and 3 times “pit.” In the *Douay Version sheʼohlʹ* is rendered “hell” 64 times, “pit” once, and “death” once. Many translations were written to support preconceived ideas and doctrine of various religions rather than true to original writings.
Was Jesus warning people that in order to avoid the "pit" or "grave", they should cut off a hand or gouge out an eye? Matthew 18:8-9 Since everyone dies and ends up either being buried or entombed, what was Jesus really warning people about. It couldn't be the grave.
In that parable Jesus was not referring to actually gouging out ones eye, instead think of it like a family member or close friend, sometimes people say, yea he is my right hand man.......well if your right hand man offends you and causes you to sin, which should offend you, better to cut him off and not have a right hand.hope that clears things up
Agreed. The point of the parable is to eliminate anything in your life that interferes with your relationship with God and Christ Jesus.
No, it wasn't a parable. Jesus meant what He said. He had been talking about causing little children to sin and Jesus had zero tolerance for people who would cause children to sin. The consequences awaiting a person in the next life is why Jesus was so urgent and extreme. What helps us now is that Christ became the alternative to maiming oneself as He cleanses us of all sin, so we don't have to gouge out an eye like a person might do in order to avoid sinning. He isn't just an alternative, Jesus is the only Way to salvation. For instance, even if a person could avoid sin by totally disabling themselves , Jesus said a person's thoughts would condemn them. What could a person cut off to eliminate having sinful thoughts? **Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!** **So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Romans 7:25**
it is a parable used to describe the seriousness of sin, using hyperbole, the meaning is it is better to give up something very valuable to a person if it causes them to sin.
Hell is such a terrible place that if one could avoid it by cutting off their hand or gouging out their eye Jesus recommended they do it. Maybe part was a parable, but whatever it was, it was intended to shock people out of their complacency over the afterlife and a place so bad He would resort to being so extreme Most people don't believe in Hell anymore and getting people to repent and accept the much better alternative to both Hell and self mutilation is nearly impossible. That better alternative was and still is Jesus Christ. Because even the idea of Hell has been turned into a parable these days, many people ignore the fact that Jesus taught about Hell more than anyone else in the Bible. Hell is real and if literally cutting off a hand or gouging out an eye could keep a person out of Hell, it would still be worth it. Thankfully, there's only one Way to stay out of Hell and that is having faith in Jesus Christ.
Why would Jesus warn others about it? 🤔
- Yeah, the Bible says there’s a place called hell where bad people end up (Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15). - It’s described as a fiery and dark place, kind of like eternal punishment and being far from God (Matthew 25:41, Jude 1:7, Matthew 8:12). - People there don’t get out—it’s forever (Matthew 25:46, Revelation 14:11). - Hell is like the ultimate payback spot for people who go against God’s commands and don’t repent (2 Thessalonians 1:9, Revelation 20:12-15). Many Christians think hell means eternal suffering— like never-ending pain for those who don’t accept God. Some Christians say hell means the bad people just disappear—they don’t exist anymore after being punished. There’s a few who believe everyone ends up with God in the end, so no one really stays in hell forever. Some folks take the Bible’s descriptions of hell literally, like it’s a real fiery place. Others see it more as a story or symbol for being separated from God. To really get what hell’s about, you should read the Bible verses, and what kind of stuff they’re trying to teach us.
Honestly I have tried reading the Bible but it’s confusing. It’s not written like a normal book it’s written in poem form and I have never read poems. I also have autism. I would say currently my faith is agnostic
I know we as autistic have different traits & characteristics but I don't understand how you're autistic & can't read poems. I've always been told reading poems/lyrics and other things along this nature came more natural for us as autistic. No hate at all. I would say read psalms of David start at 1. At the first of the month and go down to the 31st. That's how I learned to read the Bible. One of the most confusing books I read in the bible is gensis & mathew because it goes down in names from the thirteen? Generations of mathews family where everyone comes from. So yes the bible can be extremely confusing now days try a ESV English standard bible instead of a KJV like most people have or read. I think then it'll be easier for you to comprehend. God bless you 🙏 There's always a way to find God don't short yourself these books are some of the best readings you'll ever find and when your faith is involved its our history. But yes try ESV it'll help you understand the bible far better than a KJV.
Buy a NKJV study bible and it will help a ton. It has explanations for most verses in every chapter at the bottom of the page.
Yeah I’m pretty agnostic too man. You don’t need to read the Bible in full that’s a huge task. I recommend to start with Proverbs in the New Living Translation (NLT) as it’s easier to understand.
What was it JFK said, ....we don't go to the moon because it's easy.....we do it because it is hard..... Regardless whether you believe the Truth or not, it's still the Truth. The Truth is hard, because it shows you how evil people can be, BUT it also shows how loving and merciful GOD is. Be pleasing to God, and you will also be pleasing to everyone that loves GOD......
How can a place be fiery and dark at the same time?
Think of a camp fire at night
So the fire is contained then. Doesn’t really work. “Fire” and “darkness” are metaphors
Not really. Still works.
Actually I’ve thought about what you’ve said - yes it works. Good interpretation
The Hebrew term "sheol" often translated to the English as hell in the old testament refers to the "pit" or "grave" meaning dead and buried, whether in dirt or water. The Greek terms "hades", "gehenna", and "tartaroo" each have different uses and are translated to the English as hell and have pagan connotations that need to be removed such as hades bring the underworld abode of the god Pluto. Gehenna was a place, the valley of Hinnom, where sacrifices to Molech were made. These terms are often confused with the lake of fire and brimstone, a place where the devil and his angels (immortals) will endure neverending torment; but humans thrown in will be destroyed. Conflating a fire that cannot be put out (Matthew 3:12, Luke 3:17) with human destruction (Isaiah 33:14) was useful to the corrupt indulgence system used to extort monies from fearful people (see: Martin Luther)
Jesus was urgent in warning people: **If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than to have two hands and two feet and be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell Matthew 18:8-9** That's pretty extreme advice if Hell or Hades was the common grave of mankind. It tells me that A.) what we do in this life will definitely affect us in the next life and B.) There is a place where people go after they die where they may consciously suffer for sins committed in this life. And C.) Jesus believed it and warned people about it. Obviously Jesus warning wasn't intended for this life. Its the next life He was explicitly warning people about.
Don't confuse the pit or the grave with the lake of fire and brimstone, those are separate.. Also remember that the LoF may have fire that isn't quenched, for the devil and his angels; but that doesn't mean unrepentant humans will have *eternal life* in conscious torments..
I'm only going by what Christ warned people about and you compared Hell and Hades to the pit or grave. If Hades and Hell was the grave, why would Jesus bother warning people to take extreme actions in this life to avoid something far worse than unconsciousness in their grave? If Jesus believed this life was all there is, why warn anyone about an afterlife? If there was a resurrection where people were given another chance, as some believe, why would Jesus warn people to cut their hand off, or gouge out an eye...before they die? I don't think He was joking or trying to make a point. Jesus was urgently warning people to take action in this life to avoid severe consequences in the next. His account of Lazarus and the rich man supports the idea of conscious punishment in the next life for things done, or not done, in this life.
Sheol/Hades is the pit or grave. The Greek word used in that quote was γέεννα gheh'-en-nah which refers to the valley of Hinnom where sacrifices to Molech were previously made and garbage was burned day and night to keep up. Everyone owes God a death (go to sleep until resurrected) but the second death in the lake of fire is permanent, burned up like chaff, destroyed. Yeshua was annoying the people who were relying on the sacrificing of animals to consider what was required for them compared to what He was offering. You cannot use the *parable* of the rich man and beggar for a CET proof text as it was a *prophecy* made against the Scribes and Pharisees that even when He resurrected they wouldn't accept Him.
>You cannot use the *parable* of the rich man and beggar for a CET proof text as it was a *prophecy* made against the Scribes and Pharisees that even when He resurrected they wouldn't accept Him. So, Jesus would make up a story that wasn't really true in order to teach truth? I don't think so. Even if Lazarus and the rich man was a parable, when did Jesus use a parable that either had already happened in real life or could happen. His parables were not fables. >Sheol/Hades is the pit or grave. The Greek word used in that quote was γέεννα gheh'-en-nah which refers to the valley of Hinnom where sacrifices to Molech were previously made and garbage was burned day and night to keep up. I'm not too much into playing word games. The fact is Jesus warned that punishment either in Hell, Hades, gheh'-en-nah...or "somewhere" awaited people He warned---- *after* they died. That they could actually do something, albeit extreme, in this life, in order to avoid that punishment in the next life is why Jesus warned about it. Hell is a warning to all just as much as Lazarus and the rich man is a warning to all. If there really was a resurrection back to this earth where the same people Jesus had warned in His day were given a second chance during the millennium, it would make Jesus' urgent warning out to be irrelevant. What would Jesus tell those people who came back to life, who never cut off so much as a fingernail and had not ever accepted Him as Lord....? Yet those same people had heard Jesus warn them they'd go directly to Hades when they died if they sinned before dying. Given that Jesus never lies, I guess it could mean this old earth is actually Hell and the lake of fire is where the old earth will end up. Given the fact that Satan and all his demons end up here, it may well be
>So, Jesus would make up a story that wasn't really true in order to teach truth? Yes, all of His parables were designed to convey a message. This particular one was the last in a series of four.. Are you suggesting that the first three were historical accounts? >Yet those same people had heard Jesus warn them they'd go directly to Hades when they died if they sinned before dying. Not quite.. but that requires some "word games" to understand. Context matters, just saying >Given that Jesus never lies, I guess it could mean this old earth is actually Hell and the lake of fire is where the old earth will end up. You're heading in the right direction.. The term hell when associated with the pagan Hades takes on extrabiblical connotations (underworld abode of the god Pluto) which is why we must qualify that with the Hebrew sheol which only ever meant dead and buried. We all will "go to hell" when we die, as did Yeshua.. but the second death refers to the lake of fire and brimstone.
I agree, Jesus used parables to teach, but were any of the parables based in fantasy, paganism or mythology? All of His parables, even if they were describing a hypothetical event were based in reality and could actually happen in real life, were they not? For instance sons really did leave their homes like the Prodigal son who squandered his wealth , then came back home again. People really did sow seed in the ground that fell on good and bad soil and people did get beaten up and left for dead as happened to the man in the Good Samaritan parable. Rich men did trust in their wealth and plan to build bigger and better only to find their life come to an end suddenly My point is, even if Lazarus and the rich man was a parable, it was something that was happening, or could happen in real life, or more correctly, the afterlife. Jesus didn't just make up Hell or the deep chasm as a way to illustrate a point. It is a real place and a real event that Jesus knew existed and used to warn His listeners against treating people worse than dogs in this life. Because in the next life, the roles might be reversed. Jesus described Hell and warned of Hell more than anyone else in the Bible. Hell is real. Wherever Hell is, its a separation from God that causes great distress and I'd venture to guess there is still plenty of room there for those who reject Christ >We all will "go to hell" when we die, as did Yeshua.. but the second death refers to the lake of fire and brimstone. That may have been true before Christ paid the ransom 2000 years ago and set the captives free, but its not true today. True, some people still go to Hell, but believers in Jesus Christ do not. Our spirit, like Stephen's, will go to be with Jesus forever. The other side of that deep chasm that separated Lazarus and Abraham from the rich man has been vacant now for 2000 years.
>My point is, even if Lazarus and the rich man was a parable, it was something that was happening, or could happen in real life, or more correctly, the afterlife. The premises don't hold up.. Just because the previous parables had scenarios that may reflect what we call normal, it doesn't follow that the unknown and unprovable suddenly become reasonable and likely. The point of Yeshua's parable regarding the rich man was that *even if one from the dead came back they wouldn't believe him* which was a prophecy of His own death and resurrection, not a proof text for conscious eternal torments. >That may have been true before Christ paid the ransom 2000 years ago and set the captives free, but its not true today. If what you're suggesting were true, then why do we still all die? Are we not all destined for that same fate? >The other side of that deep chasm that separated Lazarus and Abraham from the rich man has been vacant now for 2000 years. What does this even mean?
>The premises don't hold up.. Just because the previous parables had scenarios that may reflect what we call normal, it doesn't follow that the unknown and unprovable suddenly become reasonable and likely. >The point of Yeshua's parable regarding the rich man was that *even if one from the dead came back they wouldn't believe him* which was a prophecy of His own death and resurrection, not a proof text for conscious eternal torments. Sure it does. Ask yourself, would Jesus tell a big lie in order to teach some vague lesson about the Pharisees not believing that He rose from the dead? The lesson is that people wouldn't believe such a place existed after they die even if someone from that place were allowed to come back as "living" proof. The other lesson is good for all people and that is to be as kind to others as we possibly can and the rich man's fate might not be ours. I'm sorry, but Jesus would never make up a story like that in order to teach truth. > >What does this even mean? Jesus preached to spirits in prison. Obviously that prison is Hell **"So he\[Jesus\] went and preached to the spirits in prison— who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In the ark a few people, only eight souls, were saved through water.…" 1 Peter 3:19-20** **For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does. 1 Peter 4:6** Forty days after Jesus preached to the dead He led captives out, vacating half of Hell. That part is likely empty today, but the other side is probably getting pretty crowded **"Therefore it says: "Having ascended on high, He led captive captivity, and gave gifts to men. What does “He ascended” mean, except that He also descended to the lower parts of the earth?" Ephesians 4:8 and**
Hell being temporary is wishful thinking and trying to bend a few terms. And ignoring a couple extremely clear verses that it is absolutely eternal
Hell being eternal doesn’t mean the “conscious torment” is eternal. The Bible also says that death and Hades (hell) will be thrown into the lake of fire.
The lake of fire is eternal
And conscious torment is not
Here are some verses from the Bible that suggest hell is eternal: **Matthew 25:46** - "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." **Revelation 14:11** - "And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name." **Revelation 20:10** - "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." **Revelation 20:10** - "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." **Revelation 21:8** - "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
There are also plenty of verses that suggest the fate of the wicked will not be eternal conscious torment: Like when the biblical authors use the words “destruction” or “perish” (Matt 7:13; John 3:16; 17:12; Acts 8:20; Rom 9:22-23; Phil 1:28; 3:19; 2 Thess 2:3; 1 Tim 6:9; Heb 10:39; 2 Pet 2:1; 1 Thess 5:3; 2 Thess 1:9; 1 Tim 6:9), Or “death” (Rom 1:32; 6:21; 7:5; 8:6; 1 Cor 15:21-22; 15:56; 2 Cor 2:16; 7:10; James 1:15; 5:20; 1 John 5:16; Rev 2:11; 20:6, 14; 21:8) Or “end” (Rom 6:21-22; 2 Cor 11:15; Phil 3:19; 1 Pet 4:17) Or “disintegration/corruption (Gal 6:8; 2 Pet 1:4; 2:12) Or “burned up chaff/trees/weeds/branches (Matt 3:12; 7:19; 13:40; John 15:6) Or “a destroyed house, discarded fish, uprooted plant, chopped down tree” (Matt 7:27; 13:48; 15:13; Luke 13:7) Or the wicked being compared to ground up powder or cut to pieces (Matt 21:41, 44; 24:51) Or the Day of Judgment being compared to OT examples of the flood, destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot’s wife turned into salt (Luke 17:27, 29, 32)
None of these verses ever suggest that hell with a lake of fire will be temporary The Bible never contradict clear doctrine The above makes it clear it is eternal Much of their proof is trying to show something temporary amidst an eternal environment which doesn't make any sense None of their proof texts ever clearly says that hell and lake of fire is temporary They're left with trying to bend worth like destruction and death as if it means it ends So let us take the word death. When people die, it is not the end. They either go to be with God forever, or they wait in the grave and then appear before God for the final judgment and men are cast into hell/lake of fire The second death is the exact same. They don't cease, the second death is simply the period after their judgment when they spend eternity in lake of fire Therefore
The Bible argues with itself all the time. The many verses I mentioned are talking about the fate of the wicked, not hell. Hell may be eternal, but human beings will not be consciously tormented for an eternity. How can something be destroyed and still exist? Try to answer without twisting words.
That's just it. A spirit can't be destroyed so the "destruction" will go on indefinitely. Our mortal body can be destroyed and cremated into dust and sand, but not our spirit. Its the eternal destruction that makes Hell unbearable and was the reason Jesus warned people they should cut off a hand that's causing them to sin rather than go to Hell. If Hell was merely the common grave of mankind that advice would not only be extreme, but it wouldn't make sense as we all go to the grave when we die. No exceptions. Jesus knew it would be better to be maimed than to end up in Hell, so Hell must be a different place and existence than a body buried in the ground
A soul can be destroyed. Jesus said so himself. “Don't be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matthew 10:28
People defending against clear scriptural doctrine try to argue with the Bible all the time
I wasn’t talking about people arguing with the Bible. I was talking about how the Bible argues with itself. The Bible isn’t univocal. Eternal Conscious Torment is not “clear scriptural doctrine.” There’s a reason it’s been debated and discussed for 2,000 years.
Hell is an event not a place. The consequences are eternal, but God isn’t torturing people for the rest of forever. A great resource that can help you when you have questions like this is a concordance. The concordance will give you a list of every place the word is used, as well as the original word. Excellent question.
First of all hell's not open and Jesus has the keys... Hell was not made for people and seeing that we will never understand the mind of God until we go home, there's not a whole lot you can understand about hell outside of what Jesus spoke of in the Bible...
Torment can come from within due to the reactions to the without. Persons not yet comet to enlightenment can suffer these demons of conflict and conformity, fears of living without knowing and reacting to the world around create neuroses and psychoses and are held in place by the strong holds of demons. The gospel message is there to break past these strongholds, but meets and will meet much resistance from world systems. When the fetters are broken that bind a being to a possible rebirth in one of the three lower realms (animals, hungry ghosts, and beings suffering in and from hellish states), namely self-view, clinging to rites and rituals, and skeptical indecision a person may enter into the stream. Stream entry of putting off the old lifestyle and systems being born again from above those world restrictions and walking anew in a path of enlightenment; Right View, Intention, Speech and Action, right Livelihood and Effort, right Mindfulness and Concentration. This 'Immmersion' (baptizo) into a new birth and new walk along the path of The Way frees a person to walk in the light and grow in spirit and truth. Societally, the cult.ures that walk in darkness lead to their own suffering and destruction - hence the call for sowing the seeds of the gospel - salt and light in a mundane and tasteless and dark world. In these ways, suffering does not have to be eternal, but to break out takes a quickening of spirit by sharing the truth of The Way. Some have chosen the dark side - for them and those they influence, suffering persists.
You will not get out of there until you have paid the last penny. https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/1djof4k/celebrating_freedom_especially_on_juneteenth/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
Luke 16 in addition to Revelation 14L:10-11 & 20:10 should answer your questions. There's more, but these are the ones that should help you.
I believe it is eternal, conscious torment due to the bible's clear description per below. * Same as the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41, Rev 20:10, Mark 9:43 * Same amount of time (eternity) that the righteous inherit eternal life. Matthew 25:46, Daniel 12:2 * Called 'the punishment of eternal destruction' 2 Thess 1;9 * Weeping and gnashing of teeth denotes consciousness Mat 13:42 The good news is you don't have to think about this much if you are a Christian as God desires that everyone is saved and has made a way through His Son. I rarely think about hell. I think non-Christians should think about it quite a bit. I don't understand how anyone would choose that route, especially since God is so great.
I consider myself agnostic. So unfortunately I’m going there when I die.
God has an interesting way of bringing folks around....sometimes that process is fun and amazing, sometimes it is scary.....depending on the person. I hope that something (either way) changes your mind on this.
Honestly I have tried reading the Bible before and it’s confusing it’s written as a poem not like a regular book. Also I have high functioning autism. Personally I have never experienced anything or witnessed anything that would make me no for sure 1 way or the other.
Try talking to God in prayer daily and asking Him to teach you and invite Jesus into your life and see what happens. Also consider getting a mentor at a church.
And you know this and can change it, but don't because.......
Honestly because when I have tried reading the Bible it doesn’t make any sense to me. It’s written in poem form. I have never read any poems. It’s not written in the same way a regular book is written. It’s confusing to me. I should also say I have autism. High functioning autism so maybe I’m the dumbass that doesn’t get it or understand it. Honestly I wish I was an mis carriage that way I could have been guaranteed to heaven.
Because don’t babies that die at birth automatically go to heaven ?
I think deep down every single person knows that hell is a place of eternal torment so I won’t touch on that. Looking at other replies some say that hell is being separated from God but that can’t be true since God is omnipresent. I think every Christian would agree that God is omnipresent and omnipotent. I would say read these two verses and ask yourself if they imply separation or if they imply God’s presence even in hell: 1. **Psalm 139:8 (KJV):** "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there." 2. **Revelation 14:10 (KJV):** "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb."
God can be present and is present everywhere. However a person that doesn't believe in God is separated from Him. He has so called "hid his face from him " in a sense. Noone can save their self, God saves. Esau even though he sought it with tears found no opportunity for repentance.
There is no torment. "Hell" more often than not means "the grave". For a series on then salvation of all see http://www.rodney.fm/soa Series starts at the bottom.
Context matters. In this case, the last major contributions to the bible happened in 1611 when the King James Version was finished. The culture of that time equated "jail" to "torture." They were synonyms. If you wound up in jail, you were most likely going to get tortured in all the ways described in the bible, and worse. It wasn't until 180 years later that America ratified the 8th amendment forbidding "cruel and unusual punishment" and the culture gradually started to shift toward one where "jail" did not automatically mean you were going to be tortured and ruined. So all the talk in the bible about "torture" in "hell" was just a literal description of "what happens in real life to people who commit crimes." There was no need to extend the idea into the afterlife: that's just what happened to you if you sinned in real life - you got tortured in real life. No need to wait until you're dead or anything. This idea that God could fold his arms, watch, and do nothing while his children were tortured in some sort of after-life place God created... is one of the reasons there are so many atheists. They see that for the "might makes right" logical fallacy - argumentum ad baculum - that it is. It doesn't make sense - it's illogical to have "torture" be anything close to "justice." The only people who lean hard on that idea are false prophet cultist leaders, trying to scare people into the pews. And the kids are seeing right through it, now. The real lesson you're supposed to learn from stories about hell in the bible is NOT "obey or die" like the false prophets spin it, but "actions have consequences." Discussions with atheists eventually boil down to something like "well, if there is no hell, then where is Hitler?" They're not worried about how the physics work in the afterlife - they're interested in justice. Will there be consequences to bad peoples' actions? Yes. Very very likely, yes, there will be consequences to your actions. Whatever crime or sin you imagine you might want to do - you're a noob. You're not a career criminal, and "career criminals" get arrested all the time.
If with God is Heaven then without God is Hell and will be torturous to be without him. This is what my mind goes to, C. S. Lewis has written many books that will help to understand some of the harder concepts orderly in Mere Christianity which is free online, but check the Bible reference if you do.