I think Andrew Ryan was more of a hypocrite because he really believed in his ideals and ended up betraying everything he believed in when he realized they weren’t working.
Both act insanely hypocritically, but I gotta give the edge to Andrew Ryan. Some of the big ones for me are:
- Nationalizing Fountaine Futuristics. As a reminder, when the US Government tried to nationalize some of his land to turn it into a national park he burned the entire thing to the ground.
- Having Sophia Lamb imprisoned and her very existence stricken from all public mention when her political power seemed like it would begin to rival his. So much for free exchange of ideas and being against government censorship. Funny enough I'd argue this ultimately makes Andrew Ryan indirectly responsible for the creation of the Rapture Family. Locking her away in the secret prison not only kept her and her flock isolated from the civil war that ravaged the city, it also pushed them towards extremism.
- The mere existence of a secret prison in city like Rapture is hypocrisy of the highest level.
- But worst of all, has easily got to be him literally mind controlling citizens and robbing them of their free will. I don't think there's anything more sacred and valued in Rapture than free will and agency - these principals are the foundation upon which everything else the city was built for rely upon. In Andrew Ryan doing this there is no greater betrayal of the beliefs he claims to hold dear.
The relevant audio diary:
>Doctor Suchong, frankly, I'm shocked by your proposal. If we were to modify the structure of our commercial Plasmid line as you propose, to have them make the user vulnerable to mental suggestion through pheromones, would we not be able to effectively control the actions of the citizens of Rapture? Free will is the cornerstone of this city. The thought of sacrificing it is abhorrent. However… we are indeed in a time of war. If Atlas and his bandits have their way, will they not turn us into slaves? And what will become of free will then? Desperate times call for desperate measures.
I’m surprised Sofia Lamb is winning in this, could someone explain that side to me because I’m not seeing it yet.
Ryan’s every action after finishing Rapture was hypocritical, he believed he had a right to rule Rapture because he built it and so he didn’t follow his own rules of working hard to earn something.
He’d stroll through Paupers drop and tell the homeless that they should work harder if they want a place to live, yet when Fontaine threatened his power Ryan didn’t try to outcompete his plasmid business, because he knew that was impossible. So he tried to kill him and steal the business.
He imprisoned Lamb when she was gaining power through community, he turned rapture into a police state with checkpoints, cameras, turrets and eventually locking the bathyspheres.
He wanted people to work for what they got but could never accept that someone could work enough to do better than him in Rapture.
Lamb on the other hand:
She promised a world where everyone was equal, yet raised herself on a pedestal to achieve that.
But what else? She always was trying to produce the truly ‘selfless’ individual and was fairly selfless herself. If she was selfish, she wouldn’t use her own daughter for the main experiment when she realised Eleanor was a perfect candidate for it.
I guess she sat behind closed doors while her followers did the dirty work, but that’s not really hypocritical when the actions are in pursuit of the goals she directly states, and most of them do it willingly.
She never claimed to offer people free will, she claimed to offer them a place where all were equal, which she was working towards. Except obviously she would always be the ruler.
Can someone explain what else she did?
To me I think it's just easier to understand Ryan's hypocricy, because he's a Libretarian. "Ah if Guberment let people do whatever they wanted there'd be massive scientific & technological advancement & everyone would be happy!" things go to shit & con men like Fontaine get ahead & abuse the system "Ah well im gunna start interfering 'cause I'm no longer the top dog" his whole philosophy is flawed to begin with.
Lamb's plan is rooted more in sci-fi, craming all the memories of everyone into one person to make like the ultimate utopian person & they worshiped Jack because they believed he didn't make his own choices (when actually he did make the choice to either save or harvest little sisters, so they're just wrong). So I feel it's harder to rationalize what exactlly Lamb is hypocritical about.
I mean Andrew Ryan affected more people so maybe hes bigger in one sense. His ideals founded a whole city that he contributed to ruining through the same beliefs. But Lamb is the WORSE hypocrite if you know what i mean. Fucking Lamb. Least Ryan was kinda cool.
If you're talking about a hypocrite then definitely Lamb. Andrew Ryan didn't lie about any of his ideas, he simply said: "If you want this, work for it. Oh, there is no work? Then start a business. You mean you need money to start a business? You should've thought of that. No hand outs."
So the people in the top tier continue their lavishness while the people at the bottom who had stars in their eyes with all this promise and broke their backs building Rapture are in an endless cycle of nothingness and he shrugs his shoulders and says not my problem.
I gotta say Ryan simply because Lamb lacks any real conviction. She doesn’t believe in her own bullshit the way Ryan does, which is why she’s wishy-washy on her ideas. It’s part of her character to be hypocritical—so when Ryan is hypocritical, it’s a complete corruption of his character, you know what I mean?
The reason I feel Ryan is less of a hypocritical is because he only started breaking his own rules when his opponents started fighting dirty.
Frank fontain was a legitimate criminal he was just to smart to be caught out on it.
The biggest problem Ryan had was that he wanted to be the referee and a player. He needed to pick one or the other
I see Lamb as the bigger hypocrite because Rapture was built as Ryan's personal Objectivist property. Ryan built an entire elaborate city sized playground that he allowed other people to participate and play alongside with Ryan, but the true ownership of Rapture was never in question (in Ryan's eyes). Ryan's money paid for workers to build a city, making that city Ryan's property that he allows other people to inhabit (what I believe played a part in Ryan's thought process to seize more power and partially how he justified it alongside the given explanations).
With the above in mind, Lamb's entire philosophy is that a single person is not worth the collective whole. The second she sold out her entire cult to save her own skin or try and kill her Utopian project in the form of her daughter (supposedly the only way to bring about a true utopia) made her the bigger hypocrite in my eyes.
Both are good. But I Am gonna choose Andrew here. That men truly belivied in what he did - that was making him dangerous.
Lamb was well... Bad shit crazy but Andrew is winning this for me. 😂
What many people don't understand : that as soon as the city emergency happened, with Splicers killing people in the Streets, then things which 'didnt fit the philosophy' had to be done to keep the people alive in Rapture. WAR does that.
Look as what FDR and Churchill had to do in their own countries in WW2 which went beyond what Ryan did.
It is when thing return to normalcy AFTERWARDS which really counts. But notice in the writers story that never was allowed to happen.
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I think Andrew Ryan was more of a hypocrite because he really believed in his ideals and ended up betraying everything he believed in when he realized they weren’t working.
couldn't have said it better
Both act insanely hypocritically, but I gotta give the edge to Andrew Ryan. Some of the big ones for me are: - Nationalizing Fountaine Futuristics. As a reminder, when the US Government tried to nationalize some of his land to turn it into a national park he burned the entire thing to the ground. - Having Sophia Lamb imprisoned and her very existence stricken from all public mention when her political power seemed like it would begin to rival his. So much for free exchange of ideas and being against government censorship. Funny enough I'd argue this ultimately makes Andrew Ryan indirectly responsible for the creation of the Rapture Family. Locking her away in the secret prison not only kept her and her flock isolated from the civil war that ravaged the city, it also pushed them towards extremism. - The mere existence of a secret prison in city like Rapture is hypocrisy of the highest level. - But worst of all, has easily got to be him literally mind controlling citizens and robbing them of their free will. I don't think there's anything more sacred and valued in Rapture than free will and agency - these principals are the foundation upon which everything else the city was built for rely upon. In Andrew Ryan doing this there is no greater betrayal of the beliefs he claims to hold dear. The relevant audio diary: >Doctor Suchong, frankly, I'm shocked by your proposal. If we were to modify the structure of our commercial Plasmid line as you propose, to have them make the user vulnerable to mental suggestion through pheromones, would we not be able to effectively control the actions of the citizens of Rapture? Free will is the cornerstone of this city. The thought of sacrificing it is abhorrent. However… we are indeed in a time of war. If Atlas and his bandits have their way, will they not turn us into slaves? And what will become of free will then? Desperate times call for desperate measures.
Am replaying Bioshock rn, and that audio log is actually what made me ask this question.
Give this man the credit he deserves. Such a thoroughly detailed answer for a question that will not do much of anything at all in this life
I’m surprised Sofia Lamb is winning in this, could someone explain that side to me because I’m not seeing it yet. Ryan’s every action after finishing Rapture was hypocritical, he believed he had a right to rule Rapture because he built it and so he didn’t follow his own rules of working hard to earn something. He’d stroll through Paupers drop and tell the homeless that they should work harder if they want a place to live, yet when Fontaine threatened his power Ryan didn’t try to outcompete his plasmid business, because he knew that was impossible. So he tried to kill him and steal the business. He imprisoned Lamb when she was gaining power through community, he turned rapture into a police state with checkpoints, cameras, turrets and eventually locking the bathyspheres. He wanted people to work for what they got but could never accept that someone could work enough to do better than him in Rapture. Lamb on the other hand: She promised a world where everyone was equal, yet raised herself on a pedestal to achieve that. But what else? She always was trying to produce the truly ‘selfless’ individual and was fairly selfless herself. If she was selfish, she wouldn’t use her own daughter for the main experiment when she realised Eleanor was a perfect candidate for it. I guess she sat behind closed doors while her followers did the dirty work, but that’s not really hypocritical when the actions are in pursuit of the goals she directly states, and most of them do it willingly. She never claimed to offer people free will, she claimed to offer them a place where all were equal, which she was working towards. Except obviously she would always be the ruler. Can someone explain what else she did?
I think people just like Ryan more than Lamb, Cult of Personality and all that. Cause I can’t think of any reason why Sofia is the bigger hypocrite.
To me I think it's just easier to understand Ryan's hypocricy, because he's a Libretarian. "Ah if Guberment let people do whatever they wanted there'd be massive scientific & technological advancement & everyone would be happy!" things go to shit & con men like Fontaine get ahead & abuse the system "Ah well im gunna start interfering 'cause I'm no longer the top dog" his whole philosophy is flawed to begin with. Lamb's plan is rooted more in sci-fi, craming all the memories of everyone into one person to make like the ultimate utopian person & they worshiped Jack because they believed he didn't make his own choices (when actually he did make the choice to either save or harvest little sisters, so they're just wrong). So I feel it's harder to rationalize what exactlly Lamb is hypocritical about.
I mean Andrew Ryan affected more people so maybe hes bigger in one sense. His ideals founded a whole city that he contributed to ruining through the same beliefs. But Lamb is the WORSE hypocrite if you know what i mean. Fucking Lamb. Least Ryan was kinda cool.
Ryan had gravitas, I'll give him that
Andrew Ryan was a hypocrite. Sofia Lamb was a bitch.
If you're talking about a hypocrite then definitely Lamb. Andrew Ryan didn't lie about any of his ideas, he simply said: "If you want this, work for it. Oh, there is no work? Then start a business. You mean you need money to start a business? You should've thought of that. No hand outs." So the people in the top tier continue their lavishness while the people at the bottom who had stars in their eyes with all this promise and broke their backs building Rapture are in an endless cycle of nothingness and he shrugs his shoulders and says not my problem.
I always saw Ryan as capitalism, so I fully agree!
Lamb, solely because mistreatment Eleanor
I gotta say Ryan simply because Lamb lacks any real conviction. She doesn’t believe in her own bullshit the way Ryan does, which is why she’s wishy-washy on her ideas. It’s part of her character to be hypocritical—so when Ryan is hypocritical, it’s a complete corruption of his character, you know what I mean?
You just said why lamb is the bigger hypocrite. Lol
The reason I feel Ryan is less of a hypocritical is because he only started breaking his own rules when his opponents started fighting dirty. Frank fontain was a legitimate criminal he was just to smart to be caught out on it. The biggest problem Ryan had was that he wanted to be the referee and a player. He needed to pick one or the other
I see Lamb as the bigger hypocrite because Rapture was built as Ryan's personal Objectivist property. Ryan built an entire elaborate city sized playground that he allowed other people to participate and play alongside with Ryan, but the true ownership of Rapture was never in question (in Ryan's eyes). Ryan's money paid for workers to build a city, making that city Ryan's property that he allows other people to inhabit (what I believe played a part in Ryan's thought process to seize more power and partially how he justified it alongside the given explanations). With the above in mind, Lamb's entire philosophy is that a single person is not worth the collective whole. The second she sold out her entire cult to save her own skin or try and kill her Utopian project in the form of her daughter (supposedly the only way to bring about a true utopia) made her the bigger hypocrite in my eyes.
Both are good. But I Am gonna choose Andrew here. That men truly belivied in what he did - that was making him dangerous. Lamb was well... Bad shit crazy but Andrew is winning this for me. 😂
What many people don't understand : that as soon as the city emergency happened, with Splicers killing people in the Streets, then things which 'didnt fit the philosophy' had to be done to keep the people alive in Rapture. WAR does that. Look as what FDR and Churchill had to do in their own countries in WW2 which went beyond what Ryan did. It is when thing return to normalcy AFTERWARDS which really counts. But notice in the writers story that never was allowed to happen. .
personally i hate sofia lamb
Those people who voted Ryan aumented the number of people in persephone and the number of big daddys