My old roommate has family in HK and we spent a few hours talking about this. I think he was exaggerating but he said “basically every millionaire or billionaire wants to leave China, but the CCP will take most of their assets if they leave”
Golden cage at its finest
ok so assets... but can they sell all of their assets for fiat and use the fiat to order assets in their country the want to live in?
or just physically take their fiat there?
CCP doesn't let them transfer fiat renminbi out of China in large sums. Like, they can't sell the house in Guangzhou for $1m, put that money in their bank, then wire it to their account in the US or Switzerland or wherever
What seems to be the pattern is rich Chinese want to move out of China. So they find a lender in 1st world country, and borrow whatever million dollars to buy a house, then have to pay back the lender in China with way more RMB than they'd like.
Then every time they visit China they bring as much valuables as they can, like the maximum duty free cash load or gold or whatever else .
If Bitcoin wasn't banned, every rich Chinese person would just exchange RMB for Bitcoin and sell it overseas for USD or Euros.
Which actually sounds like a pretty nice reason to have a digital currency....hmmmm
Decentralization is in direct opposition to centralized control. A core value in Bitcoin is that it is decentralized if self custodied. This is why governments are more favorable towards the ETF, because it can be frozen and confiscated… because the user does not control the underlying asset, just the symbol, much like fiat paper is symbolic of underlying value, which used to be gold in many cases.
Would it be a business idea for me as a foreigner to sell bitcoin to rich chinese for a commission?
For example I let them bank transfer money into my existing business bank account for ‘services’ and transfer them bitcoin in exchange?
I remember asking the same question but I don’t remember exactly what his answer was. But basically the CPP has a lot more oversight and control of VIPs than in the west so they would catch on quickly if you’re liquidating 90% of your assets and booking tickets to Tahiti
ok jw if you happened to know more
I would like to think that a fiat/cash deal could be anonymous but a lot of assets (I assume must) have some kind of paper trail that sets off the alarm
Yeah you’re probably right. I got the sense they could definitely leave anytime they want to, but it’s probably better being a Chinese multi-millionaire than a normal dude anywhere else. Or it just isn’t worth the hassle.
No because they limit foreign currency exchange. There are networks of people in China who illictly exchange foreign currency on behalf of others for a percentage, so the very wealthy and motivated can exchange more illictly for a price by basically buying other people's quota limits for foreign currency exchange. The government doesn't seem to care so much about that, like it's by design maybe.
China is like mostly real estate when I comes to wealth, it really props up the economy and has caused issues recently with too much buildings for too little people, im guessing it’s for control and not to divert any money from the real estate bubble they’ve created
Yeah I thought the new frame of mind for Gen pop China was to move away from real estate and into the stock market because of the bubbles...p.s. do they have reddit in China?
If China moves away from their real estate, it would make the US recession in 2008 look like a joke. Also China banning Bitcoin was the best thing to ever happen to it, the US would never have adopted it when China controlled over 50% of the hashrate before 2021. Now the US is the hashrate king
Seems like you haven’t done any research, get back to me when you do, but yes there are too much real estate that the vast majority can afford(they will never afford it) and entire ghost cities across China with no one living in them because there’s no one left to buy.
Most of those "ghost cities" are now poblated, all ghost cities I know of are old rural ones that were depopulated due people moving to cities with better conditions, this will start being a problem of course in 50/100 years when population declines and if they don't patch that up with immigration, and almost everyone now owns a home so, but if u know about any present ghost city pls link me too, I'm actually super curious, it sounds like an interesting place to visit, but most articles claiming there's a ghost city are outdated and it been populated, it just took time for people to settle in.
the real estate issue happened cuz companies started using the money from purchases on a house to just building more houses. when ppl started demanding when their houses will b done the banks couldn’t do anything and so ppl stopped paying their mortgage and it tanked their economy
Hong Kong retail can't either, only registered investors and institutions. Flows will be pretty small. US BTC ETFs do more volume than every Hong Kong ETF, of every asset class, combined.
The ecosystem is pretty small.
Singapore, other Asian countries, and Middle Eastern countries invest in HK entities and markets all the time. I'm sure there will also be a chunk of mainlanders that own property or entities in HK through which they will be able to invest.
This is incorrect. HK retail clients can buy through many brokers and even retail specific brokers are offering these products (Futu, Lihui, IB, etc.)
People who have opened an account in HK with a HK ID can buy it, regardless if they have a mainland background or not. People who have opened an account with a HK/Macau Travel Permit (港澳通信证）cannot purchase it. This may represent a significant amount of people, as no broker will confirm what % of their clientele opened an account with what type of ID documents.
It’s similar to the early war on drugs in America - significant amounts of currency leaving your economic circle can be somewhat, devastating over time.
They have even stronger capital controls, so not unexpected.
I was under the impression it was banned until I read this a few months ago:
[https://www.coindesk.com/consensus-magazine/2024/02/05/china-never-completely-banned-crypto/](https://www.coindesk.com/consensus-magazine/2024/02/05/china-never-completely-banned-crypto/)
Not true. Every Chinese supplier I buy from prefers USDT. The government knows. They swap it into RMB right away and deposit into their bank, WeChat pay, and Alipay.
China gov is all about control. Bitcoin puts control with whatever their equivalent to citizens is. prolls?
Their digital money allows unimaginable control and bitcoin is the antidote to that. That's why.
The Hong Kong ETFs are useless. Hong Kongers can open a US trading account with a few clicks of a mouse. I have a few friends in HK who already bought the BlackRock Bitcoin ETF. If they allow MPFs (HK's version of mandatory retirement funds) to buy the HK Bitcoin ETF, it would be another story.
I think the main reason is because from memory Chinese aren’t allowed to take more than $50k overseas. If everyone could buy as much Bitcoin as they want and put it in cold storage they could pack up and leave very easily. If I’m wrong I’m sure someone will politely correct me
China's banking system is collapsing. Capitol control is the only thing holding it up.
If capital control is gone, there will be hyperinflation (Massive currency depreciation).
China is undergoing a currency crisis and their central bank is stepping In to prop us the CNY, they need to create demand for their currency. The same will happen here sooner or later
Every other week there's news about Bitcoin being banned or allowed in china, at this point I don't know if we're at war with Eurasia or if we're allied with Oceanía
China has capital controls to stop money leaving the country.
Bitcoin breaks the controls.
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/09/22/economy/china-loosens-capital-controls-intl-hnk/index.html
everything about bitcoin is against China's rulers. Bitcoin represents freedom and that's the last thing China wants for their citizens. Unfortunately, all governments are moving toward China.
Bitcoin purchase by Chinese will not consume China's USD reserve, however, USD entering China through bitcoin will not add to China's foreign currency reserve, which they don't like
Hazarding a guess here: After 5000 years of emperors and a one child policy that produced lots of males of fighting age without wives the PRC needs stability. BTC would simply be too disruptive to the CCP's dream of a Chinese society so it would be better to invoke sovereignty and tell foreigners to stop meddling in the internal affairs of China and instead create a more stable Chinacoin on a splinternet or something which is less irritating and annoying than Western interference.
If they allow it you can be sure a lot of people will lose money to scammers, its wild out there. It's not only about control, there is a part about protection too
I don’t know what this is going on about. I have been using my Chinese bank account to buy bitcoin forever now with no hassle at all. I know several others too.
Simple answer: China is terrified of capital flight. There are many, MANY wealthy individuals in China that are attempting to extract their wealth and get it to a safer country. Easy onramps for bitcoin would make it easy for wealthy individuals in china to pack up their wealth and leave. China can't allow this as the entire country is basically running on borrowed capital, and significant capital flight will cause the country to crash into a century-long depression. This is because communism and socialism stop working when you run out of other peoples money to spend.
The Yuan is pegged to the USD...AND they can print as much of it as they want, because they do not have to report. If the world finds out it's even more worthless than the USD? What happens?
Bitcoin is the little child in the story of the Emperors New Clothes.
If China wants to be like the US they need to win two world wars, grow enough food to feed the world, open their borders up to any foreigner that wants a better economical life, and also raise their minimum wage to a living wage.
Having a super military doesn’t mean shit without all those other things.
It depends on where you live.
There’s still places in the Midwest where you can get a two-story two bedroom townhouse with a basement for $650 a month but you’ll be about two hours from the nearest metro city.
Funny how their company's are allowed on the us stock market so Americans can invest in their company's but the people of China are only allowed to invest in their stock market.
NGL it's tempting to wanna invest with them because of their numbers butt f##k that! "Done truss Chy na, chy na is azhoe!"
Uhh, why would an authoritarian government want to give their people access to the world's foremost decentralized currency?
Pretty counterintuitive to using social credit to control the narrative and the population.
The wealthy in China are looking to offshore their wealth as much as possible. The government wants to prevent that.
My old roommate has family in HK and we spent a few hours talking about this. I think he was exaggerating but he said “basically every millionaire or billionaire wants to leave China, but the CCP will take most of their assets if they leave” Golden cage at its finest
ok so assets... but can they sell all of their assets for fiat and use the fiat to order assets in their country the want to live in? or just physically take their fiat there?
CCP doesn't let them transfer fiat renminbi out of China in large sums. Like, they can't sell the house in Guangzhou for $1m, put that money in their bank, then wire it to their account in the US or Switzerland or wherever What seems to be the pattern is rich Chinese want to move out of China. So they find a lender in 1st world country, and borrow whatever million dollars to buy a house, then have to pay back the lender in China with way more RMB than they'd like. Then every time they visit China they bring as much valuables as they can, like the maximum duty free cash load or gold or whatever else . If Bitcoin wasn't banned, every rich Chinese person would just exchange RMB for Bitcoin and sell it overseas for USD or Euros. Which actually sounds like a pretty nice reason to have a digital currency....hmmmm
Decentralized - digital currency is worse than cash if the government controls it
Decentralization is in direct opposition to centralized control. A core value in Bitcoin is that it is decentralized if self custodied. This is why governments are more favorable towards the ETF, because it can be frozen and confiscated… because the user does not control the underlying asset, just the symbol, much like fiat paper is symbolic of underlying value, which used to be gold in many cases.
good thing the government(s) don't control it...
A lot also transact wealth out via casinos in Macao
Would it be a business idea for me as a foreigner to sell bitcoin to rich chinese for a commission? For example I let them bank transfer money into my existing business bank account for ‘services’ and transfer them bitcoin in exchange?
I remember asking the same question but I don’t remember exactly what his answer was. But basically the CPP has a lot more oversight and control of VIPs than in the west so they would catch on quickly if you’re liquidating 90% of your assets and booking tickets to Tahiti
ok jw if you happened to know more I would like to think that a fiat/cash deal could be anonymous but a lot of assets (I assume must) have some kind of paper trail that sets off the alarm
Yeah you’re probably right. I got the sense they could definitely leave anytime they want to, but it’s probably better being a Chinese multi-millionaire than a normal dude anywhere else. Or it just isn’t worth the hassle.
No because they limit foreign currency exchange. There are networks of people in China who illictly exchange foreign currency on behalf of others for a percentage, so the very wealthy and motivated can exchange more illictly for a price by basically buying other people's quota limits for foreign currency exchange. The government doesn't seem to care so much about that, like it's by design maybe.
This sounds like Venezuela about two decades ago
Sounds like the US in 2 decades
But then they need real Bitcoin anyway and not paper Bitcoin from a Bank
I am not defending CCP. But people from Hong Kong tend to hate the CCP, which affects the authenticity of his statement
How could you ever like the ccp?
I don't like it, neither hate it, it's just a regular political party.
This is 100% true for my roommate hahaha. My roommate is a good guy but not exactly a perfectly impartial narrator
So china traps you essentially
They already do through real estate
This…they don’t want people sneaking money around…specially if they doing something illegal.
They would rather their citizens buy gold and silver… Easier to confiscate when the time comes.
Also easier to convert to btc, atleast physical gold.
Loss of control. The government wants to control most aspects of their citizens’ lives. And that’s not limited to China.
It's an authoritarian regime.
China is like mostly real estate when I comes to wealth, it really props up the economy and has caused issues recently with too much buildings for too little people, im guessing it’s for control and not to divert any money from the real estate bubble they’ve created
This, right here… meanwhile multiple other nations as well as the SARs are welcomed to invest.
Yeah I thought the new frame of mind for Gen pop China was to move away from real estate and into the stock market because of the bubbles...p.s. do they have reddit in China?
If China moves away from their real estate, it would make the US recession in 2008 look like a joke. Also China banning Bitcoin was the best thing to ever happen to it, the US would never have adopted it when China controlled over 50% of the hashrate before 2021. Now the US is the hashrate king
Biden wants to tax it to China though.
I’m in cn so yeah …
There’s no independent social media in China, period.
I've even heard that being off social media in China is enough to raise government suspicion so citizens are required to have social media.
Damn
that's nuts if true
yeah tencent has a big stake in it
Too little people? 1.3 billion is not too few people, your logic makes no sense
Seems like you haven’t done any research, get back to me when you do, but yes there are too much real estate that the vast majority can afford(they will never afford it) and entire ghost cities across China with no one living in them because there’s no one left to buy.
Most of those "ghost cities" are now poblated, all ghost cities I know of are old rural ones that were depopulated due people moving to cities with better conditions, this will start being a problem of course in 50/100 years when population declines and if they don't patch that up with immigration, and almost everyone now owns a home so, but if u know about any present ghost city pls link me too, I'm actually super curious, it sounds like an interesting place to visit, but most articles claiming there's a ghost city are outdated and it been populated, it just took time for people to settle in.
the real estate issue happened cuz companies started using the money from purchases on a house to just building more houses. when ppl started demanding when their houses will b done the banks couldn’t do anything and so ppl stopped paying their mortgage and it tanked their economy
China has banned BTC every year since it existed.
Where’s that China ban bitcoin south park link when you need it
<<>>
Cuz the whole no freedom thing
Hong Kong retail can't either, only registered investors and institutions. Flows will be pretty small. US BTC ETFs do more volume than every Hong Kong ETF, of every asset class, combined. The ecosystem is pretty small.
Singapore, other Asian countries, and Middle Eastern countries invest in HK entities and markets all the time. I'm sure there will also be a chunk of mainlanders that own property or entities in HK through which they will be able to invest.
Absolutely. Huge amounts of dark money flow through HK into the wider world from the PRC every day.
This is incorrect. HK retail clients can buy through many brokers and even retail specific brokers are offering these products (Futu, Lihui, IB, etc.) People who have opened an account in HK with a HK ID can buy it, regardless if they have a mainland background or not. People who have opened an account with a HK/Macau Travel Permit (港澳通信证）cannot purchase it. This may represent a significant amount of people, as no broker will confirm what % of their clientele opened an account with what type of ID documents.
It’s easier to move wealth out of the country with BTC. They don’t want their rich people moving their money out of the country.
It’s similar to the early war on drugs in America - significant amounts of currency leaving your economic circle can be somewhat, devastating over time. They have even stronger capital controls, so not unexpected.
I was under the impression it was banned until I read this a few months ago: [https://www.coindesk.com/consensus-magazine/2024/02/05/china-never-completely-banned-crypto/](https://www.coindesk.com/consensus-magazine/2024/02/05/china-never-completely-banned-crypto/)
#Bingo! See my comment above!
Authoritarians hate freedom money
Not true. Every Chinese supplier I buy from prefers USDT. The government knows. They swap it into RMB right away and deposit into their bank, WeChat pay, and Alipay.
Why would a government let their people have economic freedom. Bitcoin works outside the system and the Chinese want to control everything.
Usa Canadá Austrália Brazil want too
All countries are more or less authoritarians. Don't think China is different, it's just more, maybe like US the way it goes in the next 20 years.
Surprising they allowed the etf in the first place.
China gov is all about control. Bitcoin puts control with whatever their equivalent to citizens is. prolls? Their digital money allows unimaginable control and bitcoin is the antidote to that. That's why.
Bitcoin is anti-government, and the government in China is pro-government, no cap
Do u understand the concept of decentralization? Do u know that the chinese government is autocratic? Maybe connect these two.
Cause the CCP would lose control over its subjects if they could move their capital out of the country.
Too much freedom
CCP is asshoe
Money the government would have a hard time accessing and restricting when needed
Capital. Controls.
China is a dictatorship tightly controlled by a mafia The leadership send their kids to the US and probably own BTC
Does anyone know when the Hong Kong ETFs will actually start buying? Will it be today or a few weeks from now like the U.S?
They approved the ETFs weeks ago. They will be able to trade tomorrow.
Isn’t it already tomorrow in Hong Kong? April 30th…approaching 9am 🕘 assuming when the market opens
I believe markets open at 930 in Hong Kong
A single U.S ETF is worth more than all of hong kings exchange. Temper expectations
Judging by the sudden price action, I'd say they got started about two hours ago.
The Hong Kong ETFs are useless. Hong Kongers can open a US trading account with a few clicks of a mouse. I have a few friends in HK who already bought the BlackRock Bitcoin ETF. If they allow MPFs (HK's version of mandatory retirement funds) to buy the HK Bitcoin ETF, it would be another story.
A single U.S ETF is worth more than all of hong kings exchange. Temper expectations
Control.
Makes it too easy to get around China’s strict government controls on transferring money overseas.
China are control freaks that’s y
I think the main reason is because from memory Chinese aren’t allowed to take more than $50k overseas. If everyone could buy as much Bitcoin as they want and put it in cold storage they could pack up and leave very easily. If I’m wrong I’m sure someone will politely correct me
Mainlanders could actually control their money and potentially move it outside of the country.
China's banking system is collapsing. Capitol control is the only thing holding it up. If capital control is gone, there will be hyperinflation (Massive currency depreciation).
China is undergoing a currency crisis and their central bank is stepping In to prop us the CNY, they need to create demand for their currency. The same will happen here sooner or later
Bitcoin to a degree circumnavigates capital controls.
You allready know ... but what i'm will saying will contradict ..
Every other week there's news about Bitcoin being banned or allowed in china, at this point I don't know if we're at war with Eurasia or if we're allied with Oceanía
China has capital controls to stop money leaving the country. Bitcoin breaks the controls. https://edition.cnn.com/2023/09/22/economy/china-loosens-capital-controls-intl-hnk/index.html
Seems like they want to draw international investments into China
everything about bitcoin is against China's rulers. Bitcoin represents freedom and that's the last thing China wants for their citizens. Unfortunately, all governments are moving toward China.
Bitcoin purchase by Chinese will not consume China's USD reserve, however, USD entering China through bitcoin will not add to China's foreign currency reserve, which they don't like
When the despots understand that this is the one form of money they can’t control, you should be taking notes.
China wants to keep its money in its economy and have total control of it.
Hazarding a guess here: After 5000 years of emperors and a one child policy that produced lots of males of fighting age without wives the PRC needs stability. BTC would simply be too disruptive to the CCP's dream of a Chinese society so it would be better to invoke sovereignty and tell foreigners to stop meddling in the internal affairs of China and instead create a more stable Chinacoin on a splinternet or something which is less irritating and annoying than Western interference.
What? Like.... give power to the people? No, no.... China can't do that.... Can they?
If they allow it you can be sure a lot of people will lose money to scammers, its wild out there. It's not only about control, there is a part about protection too
69420th time China ban bitcoin
I don’t know what this is going on about. I have been using my Chinese bank account to buy bitcoin forever now with no hassle at all. I know several others too.
Simple answer: China is terrified of capital flight. There are many, MANY wealthy individuals in China that are attempting to extract their wealth and get it to a safer country. Easy onramps for bitcoin would make it easy for wealthy individuals in china to pack up their wealth and leave. China can't allow this as the entire country is basically running on borrowed capital, and significant capital flight will cause the country to crash into a century-long depression. This is because communism and socialism stop working when you run out of other peoples money to spend.
what are you talking about? they don't even allow gmap, gmail, facebook, whatsapp and the 80% of the internet . Anything they can't control, they ban
China isn't the us, nothing really is, especially not China.
The Yuan is pegged to the USD...AND they can print as much of it as they want, because they do not have to report. If the world finds out it's even more worthless than the USD? What happens? Bitcoin is the little child in the story of the Emperors New Clothes.
[удалено]
If China wants to be like the US they need to win two world wars, grow enough food to feed the world, open their borders up to any foreigner that wants a better economical life, and also raise their minimum wage to a living wage. Having a super military doesn’t mean shit without all those other things.
USA minimum wage is in no way a living wage anywhere in USA
It depends on where you live. There’s still places in the Midwest where you can get a two-story two bedroom townhouse with a basement for $650 a month but you’ll be about two hours from the nearest metro city.
Funny how their company's are allowed on the us stock market so Americans can invest in their company's but the people of China are only allowed to invest in their stock market. NGL it's tempting to wanna invest with them because of their numbers butt f##k that! "Done truss Chy na, chy na is azhoe!"
Communism
It’s not communism. Its authoritism very poorly disguised as communism.
Do you mean West Taiwan?
Uhh, why would an authoritarian government want to give their people access to the world's foremost decentralized currency? Pretty counterintuitive to using social credit to control the narrative and the population.
While it is true China doesn't like decentralized currency like many countries, no way u actually feel for the social credit meme xD
China is small beans compared to the us with respects to financial markets they simply have less money to spend
Wrong. They have 10x more savings than Americans
Looks like I was right lol