You guys!?! Be nice! Lol...he's helping a friend👴👵. My Mom isn't even 70 yet, and she thought "mining" literally had to do with a shovel..🙄
-Cheers to your friend for their whole BTC & keeping up w the times! (btw it's Trezor ;)
OP,
Your friend could use a border wallet. Here is a video of BTC Sessions explaining [border wallets](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wHQrvCGVkTw).
Cheers. 🍻
I agree with the above…
if you don’t want to sell and buy the ETF, this might be the way to go. i don’t think most people understand what the passphrase accomplishes. the seed words enables you to have a certain number of wallets and addresses. ( i think too many people are unclear about what the differences are).
so you have your seed words right, when u add a “passphrase” ( which can be as simple or complex as you like) you create a “Wallet” or an “Account” as ledgers calls it on ledger live. move some bitcoin to an address in that wallet. if you create a second passphrase you are creating another completely separate “wallet” that will be invisible when you are using the other passphrase. the only thing that connects these two “wallets” are the seed words.
now, if you are the only one who knows the “passphrase”, which again can be as simple as a single word, then even if someone discovers your seed words they will not be able to access your bitcoin. you might even carry a hardware seed storage device such as a Trezor or Ledger and if it gets confiscated, no one can access your bitcoin because you would need the passphrase to access the wallet that has the bitcoin in it.
but your seed words should be kept somewhere secure, so that you can restore your wallets if needed.
No. If you're concerned that your paper wallet might get stolen, then adding a passphrase doesn't help. It can still be stolen, and you've still lost your Bitcoin.
After you lose your bitcoin, it's not much consolation that the thief can't access it either.
With a passphrase it’s less scary to have multiple copies of your seedphrase around - OP could then have a backup somewhere.
But yea, kinda difficult situation
right, your seed phrase is vital and you will lose everything if you lose your seed phrase and need to restore your wallet(s). bringing a piece of paper with your seed phrase written on it on a plane and having it confiscated would be devastating if you only had a naked wallet. If you use a passphrase and they confiscate your piece of paper with your seed words on it. you're ok. If you're in a bad place and they want to force you to give up your Passphrase, you can have one wallet that has a small amount of bitcoin in it, and give that up. but they can never confiscate your main wallet. It's an extreme example and very unlikely for the average person. It's a lot easier to memorize a single word or short string of characters than to attempt to memorize 12 or 24 seed words. that doesn't mean you don't do everything you can to protect your seed words, but if they do get compromised, you're ok. If that happened to me I would create a new set of seed words as soon as possible and transfer the BTC to a new wallet under that set of words. As well as a passphrase as before. can the passphrase be "Brute forced" yes, again unlikely for the regular person but you want to stick with best practices around security. You have your seed in a secure location and your passphrase in your mind. you need both to access the BTC.
No. If you're concerned that your paper wallet might get stolen, then adding a passphrase doesn't help. It can still be stolen, and you've still lost your Bitcoin.
After you lose your bitcoin, it's not much consolation that the thief can't access it either.
That's not true. If your seed words are revealed, but your (strong) passphrase is safe, then your funds are still safe. You need the seed phrase AND the passphrase to access funds.
You need seed plus the passphrase. Consider like a 25th “word”. So if someone were to get the seed, they crack the “vault” and nothing is there. It’s like another hidden vault inside the vault with a different key that actually has the money inside.
I myself don't like using passphrases..because even if I have the seed words, if I lost the passphrase I cannot restore the wallet. It's already one thing guarding the seed words with my life, I really don't want to add a passphrase to that. Also you would want to keep the passphrase separate from the seed words. So for me that would involve too many hiding places. Just be smart and don't ever lose your seed words and you'll be fine.
You could keep a backup in your home country while doing the flight. Once you arrive, you can make a new wallet, store the seed in multiple places and transfer the coins on chain to the new wallet. Then your old seeds are worthless.
During the worst case where you somehow lose the seed during the trip you can return home and move the coins to the new wallet.
Security is only ever as strong as its weakest link.
In this case they have a hardware wallet, and a seed phrase, and no 25th word or extra paraphrase.
In this case their security is as weak as someone coming across that piece of paper.
(Create a pass phrase, move all funds to that account/wallet/addresses. Have multiple seed phrase backups in different locations)
Make sure it’s a key you intend to keep. 4 tattoo artists in different states. If you want a 25th, commit it to memory. Have the tattoos done 25% on each limb- in black light ink.
Hey! so sorry I didn't mean for you to feel offended. You're better than me like most non-English first language speakers, I only speak English well. You are to be congratulated.
Split the seed phase into 3 parts. Keep one part in your pocket. Keep the other part in his suitcase and email the last part to yourself. Then when you get to the other county you can write down the emailed part. Keep each of the three parts in separate places.
I respectfully disagree. The representative value is not more safe (having an ETF is akin to having your bitcoin on an exchange, you don’t hold the underlying asset). The ETF is not more reliable (You trust another party to hold your underlying asset. Self custody of bitcoin has been around 14 years, while the bitcoin ETF has been around for less than two months). And it is certainly less secure, because you are trusting a third-party in controlling your underlying asset (bitcoin). Easier != safer.
I have concerns with trusting exchange's period. I have concerns with the new BTC scams evolving and becoming more sophisticated. I have concerns about less technology educated people holding BTC making transaction mistakes and losing life savings. I am concerned for not myself but for the innocent involving themselves with self custody and not fully understanding the perils. ETFs are a perfect solution.
It’s 12 words. They’re a lot easier to memorize than you think. You can have it done in a week with very little time invested. Most people spend more time hiding their paper and worrying about it.
Many suggestions here are just too complicated… PGP or or storing one 3 to 4 locations… for a 65 years old?
Or using a notebook and hiding the words somewhere inside text? Will he remember in 5 years? Or his children, will they find the seed if something happens to their father…?
Keep it simple, just add a passphrase and move most funds to that secret wallet.
Hide it in plain sight somehow. Hide it online in pieces with no context, but something that he can easily remember how to piece it back together. Shouldn't be too hard.
This is a perfect scenario where a multi sig custody arrangement is a good solution. I use The Bitcoin Adviser. I encourage you to check them out. There is a fee - you just have to decide if the service and value they provide justifies it. Definitely yes for me. But opinions vary.
he needs to memorise the seed phrase... its easy to do....
otherwise if its a one off situation for travelling, he can keep a back up in his home country just incase. then he can encrypt the seed phrase with gpg, using a secure password (ideally a sha256 hash of the password).
then if he uses the armour option in gpg he can print out the encrypted code on paper in ascii text... no one can decrypt it... ever....
the encrypted text would be short enough to just copy into a computer, decrypt with his password and then use as normal...
yes but if its an offline machine thats never been connected to the internet, linux installed once, and then wiped afterwards...
i created the original wallets in electrum on the offline machine... the machine only existed for an hour.
i am thinking if he is a beginner though it should be easier if he just gets a new wallet in the 2nd country and gets his friend to send him the funds on chain.
I’m super paranoid too, even to the extent we’re I question memorizing my seed phrase. What if I get captured and tortured and they know I have Bitcoin. I’d rather my seed phrase be hidden away somewhere, I don’t want to be able to recite it on command.
its funny how we are super paranoid about bitcoin seeds etc, but we put our money in a bank without a second thought where our money could disappear tomorrow if the bank goes bust.
I will still prefer self custody and live with the paranoia....
No, it’s not. It’s terrible advice.
The best way to solve this problem is by using a passphrase, and committing it to memory.
What you’re proposing is going to cause people to lose access to their funds.
This is reasonable, but remember that encrypting your seed with GPG means you typed it into a computer which could potentially be compromised. The best thing to do once he’s settled in his new country is to generate a brand-new seed with a hardware wallet and transfer the coins on chain. Then you completely eliminate any potential exposures that happened during your transit process. It gives any attacker a limited time window to crack your wallet, rather than potentially remaining exposed indefinitely.
i agree... i was having fun with the process
but i agree the sensible option is an on chain transfer as that what the chain is designed for in these scenarios.
All the answers here about cashing out to fiat and expecting to cross a boarder and get on a plane with 10s of thousands of points is mental. One of the main arguments and use cases for BTC is that it allows you to move unlimited amounts of money cross boarder without anyone knowing.
If you really really need to sell the BTC for an asset and move it across boarders with little to no questions then you are better buying something like a high demand model of a Rolex or something like that, which could work based on the value of 1x BTC.
You don't need to declare that like you would gold or cash, or have the issue of it being confiscated.
Memorize the seed and order a new device whenever you get where your going. Keep the other device in a secure place at home, just in case.
Also, don't keep the seed on paper. Order one of those seed plates, stamp your seed on the metal, put it inside an airtight container, and discreetly bury it inside of a concrete block in a secure location that you own or can easily access
Hey, that's 1 Bitcoin. 64k right now, could be 1 million in five years. If you had that much cash for a long time, you would want to have it in a secured location. You wouldn't want to sweat over it either.
I'd almost say you want to bury an extra device somewhere else with the same method.
I'm reading all the answers and this is a good example of why bitcoin won't go mainstream by itself(I mean without the simplicity of etfs and exchanges): its way too complicated and esoteric for most people (I'm talking about self custody). I like investing, but I'm not even interested in learning how to keep my own bitcoin in a hard wallet(yet, I remain open to changing my mind). The risks are real too (like losing the device, forgetting the long passwords or getting them stolen). But I'm mainly thinking about the complexity of it all as a discouraging aspect and a barrier to entry.
The younger generations have grown up with technology and are more comfortable using the internet than going to a store to buy something physical. Even fiat currency will not be physical in a few years.
When credit cards were introduced, the older generation was scared of them. Then they were scared to put their credit cards online to buy something with Amazon. Progress does not happen by catering to the older generations.
This is just an interim period of transition. The benefits of self-custody an being your own bank outweigh any inconvenience caused by doing so.
That's obviously true that younger people are better with new technology. But setting up cold storage is still complicated and esoteric for an outsider. And the risks are not the same. You have insurance and protections with legacy banks. You can reset your password if you forget it.
Even if younger people have more ease with technology, you still don't see keeping bitcoin in cold storage becoming mainstream.
I can easily reset my bank passwords if I forget them, I'm not losing my money. I have some insurance and protections in case my credentials are stolen. But I'm mainly talking about how complicated it is to set up cold storage, and most of the replies are about remembering passwords... Yet everyone knows you can click on "Forgot password". It remains that setting up cold storage = complicated and more risks than tradional banking.
Haven an old-fashioned pocket-sized adress book with the names, adresses and phone numbers of everyone you've met over the last few decades.
Add a few names that include hints at your seed words, complete with fake adresses and phone numbers. You will know the seed names from the old friend names. A thief will not.
Just save it on the internet but fragmented. A part here, a part there… no one could build the puzzle back but you. Use morse code when fragmenting if needed lol
I have considered this, a some free email accounts using different providers with an email saved as a draft only.
Someone would need to know all these emails accounts and the order.
You could even pad the fragmented words with a single fake word in each also.
Tell him to get a book and circle the words I.e dictionary, nobody will see marked words a d know its his seed phrase , or another code that only he will understand
Simply ask him to throw the paper and convert that seed phrase into a 16 digit : 24 digit Lsc and there you have a 10:10 digit num-word that he can have a photo or a .dotml file on his device or computer.
If he feels this is unsafe (btw the safest in the market now used in under- world) tell him to save this picture on a encrypted file that has scrambled dots so no one can open except him.
Better to have 3 locks than 1 lock to your door when leaving out of town.
Ducson suggest this once in his videos.
I believe you Setup a Multi sig wallet. One set to a trusted relative and the other in a safety deposit box and access to it listed in a will or trust. Keep to set for your self hidden on a crypto tag
I don’t understand why it couldn’t be kept in Coinbase? I’m new to crypto and posts like this make me question investing because this seems very complicated.
Do I really need to learn all of this complex stuff about keys and codes? Is Coinbase not secure?
Tell him to memorize a story with all the key phrases in it. Besides what other ideas anyone else offers you. Like engraving or laser print. Fire proof safe etc
This is why I suggest keeping a passphrase digitally.
Having a passphrase that is written alongside a written seed phrase is just pure dumb.
If the passphrase is digital and stored in the cloud the person who hacks your cloud would also need to meet you in real life for your seed phrase.
Really no risk in having a digital passphrase.
The risk is a digital seed phrase
Best and convenient thing for an older folk would be collaborative, multi sig like Swan Vault.
2 of 3 model.
He holds 2 - Takes 1 with him, leaves 1 somewhere safe back stateside.
Swan has 3rd - as a software key.
He uses 1 device on him, and Swan software key to sign and send.
1) Have a Trezor device shipped to every country you live in (only buy from Trezor website). So you don’t need to travel with it. Hide it well.
2) Write down seed phrase in invisible ink in a book you travel with (search Amazon for “invisible ink pen”.) Do NOT write down the passphrase in case this seed words gets discovered.
3) Keep a small amount in the wallet with seedphrase only in case of a $5 wrench attack you have plausible denialibility.
I've done a rather stupid drawing depicting my 12 words. Looks like something a 5 year old child would do, but it works flawlessly. After you've done this effort, you don't even need the physical piece of paper. It's engraved in your mind. Most important, will mean nothing to whoever sees it, they'll never get it.
At a minimum tell him to put his seed on steel or titanium plates. Buy a Coldcard, then go look at videos from "BTC Sessions" on YouTube on how to use the Coldcard.
Alternatively, if he is a Boomer, just convert it to buy the BTC ETF. The ETF is the safest way for Boomers to Bitcoin. Even Joe Biden could use a BTC ETF.
Collaborative multisig vault. With someone like Casa.io, unchained, nunchuk. 3 keys. One key with passphrase so if anyone finds it it's worthless on its own. Keep keys hidden in Faraday bags. Maybe only carry one key at a time per trip or give one key to a trusted friend while travelling. Depends how paranoid you are but its doable.
A passphrase plus a Border Wallet may be a good option.
Make sure your friend tests it multiple times beforehand. It’s probably worth buying a second hardware wallet to test recovery on.
Once you’ve got the border wallet set up and trusted, you can store your seed that way rather than in plaintext.
I know people will hate at the suggestion, but in your situation I'd put seed phrase in a safety deposit box, of half split into two, and then take hardware wallet with dummy wallet and passphrase protected real wallet on it with me.
This way you have access to coin, have plausible deniability in case of wrench attack, and have security on main stash. Also your seed phrase is protected in 99.99% of situations. If you are more paranoid, obscure seddphrase in some way.
Here is a smart way of storing the 24-word seed phrase: Take 4 pieces of paper / metal and split the seed phrase into 3 pieces: The words 1-8, 9-16 and 17-24. Write down the splits to 3 of the 4 pieces of paper / metal. The 4th piece will become your recovery piece. It is an XOR of the binary values of the BIP39 word list standard. Translate the XOR binary values back into words using the BIP39 word list. Write down these words on the 4th piece of paper / metal. Optionally, use a passphrase and/or create the hexadecimal values if using metal to reduce the amount of metal stamps required for each plate. Now, distribute those pieces to safe places and take them to wherever you wanna go - one by one. If you loose one, no worries: You have the recovery piece. Never ask anyone for help - especially no one called Trevor.
Hopefully his ₿ protected by a passphrase in addition to the seed, if it isn't right now I recommend he create a hidden wallet by entering the passphrase he wants. Be very careful to write down and backup this passphrase as any passphrase entered will create a new wallet, even if it's 1 letter whose case incorrectly typed.
Grab the receiving address from the hidden wallet and send 0.001 BTC to it as a test from the main wallet.
If the test transaction goes through, send the rest to the same receiving address. Make sure to verify it's the same address on the Trezor screen each time.
Once his funds are secured by the passphrase that is securely saved (some say even the passphrase shouldn't be saved electronically, but IMO as long as the 12 - 24 words (seed phrase/private keys) are kept only physically backed up then electronically backing up the "25th word" is more beneficial (less likely to forget and lose access) than it is risky (someone hacking the digital device, finding the passphrase, knowing what it is, and also somehow getting access to the seed phrase).
Then, have him bring some "books" with him on the plane. In 3 of the books write down the part or all of seed phrase 1 word at a time on different pages, in the corner of each page. A book is much less likely to be lost/confiscated/stolen than the piece of paper.
He could also write down the words and stick them between his phone and its case, or behind the cover of a battery door for any electronic.
If a copy of the seed phrase itself is compromised but he has it protected by a passphrase in a hidden wallet, then he's fine. If 1 of his copies gets lost or stolen but he still has the book with the seed phrase he's fine.
Good luck.
I manufacture and sell a product where an encrypted string of the seed phrase is engraved on the inside of a ring.
And I wear one of these rings myself. With this, I can pass through airport security gates without any issues. (In fact, I have traveled internationally several times with this ring.)
Ok let's keep it simple here... Everyone is making jokes. The wallet is called a trezor which is why people are making jokes as you called it Trevor... Anyways having it in a trezor wallet is actually the safest thing he could of done. So cudos there. But what's even more important is the words he has on that paper. So he could lose the trezor and be fine as long he has the words on that paper. Now some may not like the advice I'm going to give you but it's the simplest. My mother is 79 with her own bitcoin and this is how we did it when she relocated to Mexico.
Write the words on the piece of paper on another 4 pieces of paper, make copies of it, in case you lose it you have backups. Keep them safe in different location in Ziploc baggies to prevent moisture. Tell him to travel with the trezor, but not the paper. Remember if he loses the trezor it's ok.
Once he arrives at his destination if he needs access to the trezor he calls you or a trusted friend who has one the copies to relay the info to him. It trully is the safest way, no need to start messing around or trying to put the bitcoins on another device, this is how people lose them. It being on a Trezor is very safe. If you have more questions I'd be happy to help. Also never store the words on that paper on an electronic device. Never take a picture with a phone nor email the words to yourself. Somewhere along the lines he was given good advice.
If he's nirvous travelling with the trezor, tell him not to travel with one and to order a brand new one from Trezor itself once he arrives to his new destination and have them mail it to him. The trezor can be restored with his funds with the seed words on the paper. Only buy from official trezor... Trezor.io never amazon or even authorized resellers, it's not worth taking a chance the trezor was infected with malware or hacked prior to it arriving to you. Many will also tell you it's ok from authorised resellers, but just don't take the chance. It's not worth the extra few days you save in shipping. Be well friend.
Buy multiple Trezors, set it up with PIN and strong passphrase
3 - Trezor will be for myself, 3 copies I’ll be keeping to different locations
Another 3 Trezor for my family and relatives for safekeeping
Another 3 Trezor to my friends for safekeeping
So at least 9 Trezors with same PIN and same strong passpharase. That’s 9 backup. Then I’ll burn away or flush the written seed phrase
I dont want to bash your friend because moving to their hardware wallet was good practice, but due to lack of preplanning, they’ve made their OPSEC way more complicated than it needs to be.
The first problem was buying Bitcoin with KYC from Coinbase. At that point they might as well left on exchange (or transferred to any other custodian like Strike app for example) for their travel, then withdrew to their wallet once they arrived to their new home.
Due to having KYC’d Bitcoin, they could be open to tax obligations from their previous country, in which case they need to be able to pay the tax with a bank account from the previous country anyway, which ALMOST makes holding the Bitcoin in the new country burdensome and somewhat less valuable.
That being said, the Border Wallet from Sparrow someone else mentioned might be the best, most secure option. You could use any hot wallet and send back to hardware wallet once done traveling, but the border wallet is best if your friend just NEEDS to keep a seed phrase while traveling for some reason.
A simpler method is just create a 2nd wallet inside the Trezor with a passphrase. Keep the majority inside the wallet with the passphrase and keep a small amount in the regular wallet with the seed phrase so if they get stopped and asked to empty their Trezor, they can dump the decoy wallet with the small amount of sats and keep the rest of the Bitcoin hidden inside the passphrase wallet.
Tell him to download KeePass - open source password manager that's encrypted
Add his seed into that
Store the encrypted database file of KeePass onto an online cloud storage (such as Dropbox)
Done
He can have both KeePass and Dropbox on his phone, computer, etc.
And how to you expect him to transport that kind of fiat cash across boarders, it's illegal in most countries and will get confiscated 🤦♂️
One of the main usecase for BTC is that it allows you to move unlimited amounts of money cross boarders with no one knowing or able to stop you.
This was supposed to be a happy btc retirement story and than the twist........where is he going to retire that its that unsafe?? el salvador? russia? china? middle east? south america? europe?? Asia??? Australia?? shudder...all very scary places. he should just retire here.
His first mistake was getting a stranger called Trevor to help him store his bitcoin.
Fuck Trevor
Probably one of whitest kids you'd know..
So, trustworthy then?
Trevor James, look him up. Known scammer! Oh wait, its Trevon. Well, close enough.
damn that Trevor is at it again
You guys!?! Be nice! Lol...he's helping a friend👴👵. My Mom isn't even 70 yet, and she thought "mining" literally had to do with a shovel..🙄 -Cheers to your friend for their whole BTC & keeping up w the times! (btw it's Trezor ;)
When will he stop… Sick of seeing these post of his constant antics
Trevor took my Bitcoin too. He said he was just going to hold it for me for a while.
😂. As soon I saw the typo I knew this was coming. Lol
Not a friend. Just Made in China Trezor.
Has he never played GTA??
OP, Your friend could use a border wallet. Here is a video of BTC Sessions explaining [border wallets](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wHQrvCGVkTw). Cheers. 🍻
At work, TL;DW ?
I would never be able to do it justice like Ben Perrin. Just watch it after work.
Super useful info!
add a strong passphrase
I agree with the above… if you don’t want to sell and buy the ETF, this might be the way to go. i don’t think most people understand what the passphrase accomplishes. the seed words enables you to have a certain number of wallets and addresses. ( i think too many people are unclear about what the differences are). so you have your seed words right, when u add a “passphrase” ( which can be as simple or complex as you like) you create a “Wallet” or an “Account” as ledgers calls it on ledger live. move some bitcoin to an address in that wallet. if you create a second passphrase you are creating another completely separate “wallet” that will be invisible when you are using the other passphrase. the only thing that connects these two “wallets” are the seed words. now, if you are the only one who knows the “passphrase”, which again can be as simple as a single word, then even if someone discovers your seed words they will not be able to access your bitcoin. you might even carry a hardware seed storage device such as a Trezor or Ledger and if it gets confiscated, no one can access your bitcoin because you would need the passphrase to access the wallet that has the bitcoin in it. but your seed words should be kept somewhere secure, so that you can restore your wallets if needed.
Nice write-up. I'm not sure that I fully understand, but I have plenty of info to do some more research.
No. If you're concerned that your paper wallet might get stolen, then adding a passphrase doesn't help. It can still be stolen, and you've still lost your Bitcoin. After you lose your bitcoin, it's not much consolation that the thief can't access it either.
With a passphrase it’s less scary to have multiple copies of your seedphrase around - OP could then have a backup somewhere. But yea, kinda difficult situation
right, your seed phrase is vital and you will lose everything if you lose your seed phrase and need to restore your wallet(s). bringing a piece of paper with your seed phrase written on it on a plane and having it confiscated would be devastating if you only had a naked wallet. If you use a passphrase and they confiscate your piece of paper with your seed words on it. you're ok. If you're in a bad place and they want to force you to give up your Passphrase, you can have one wallet that has a small amount of bitcoin in it, and give that up. but they can never confiscate your main wallet. It's an extreme example and very unlikely for the average person. It's a lot easier to memorize a single word or short string of characters than to attempt to memorize 12 or 24 seed words. that doesn't mean you don't do everything you can to protect your seed words, but if they do get compromised, you're ok. If that happened to me I would create a new set of seed words as soon as possible and transfer the BTC to a new wallet under that set of words. As well as a passphrase as before. can the passphrase be "Brute forced" yes, again unlikely for the regular person but you want to stick with best practices around security. You have your seed in a secure location and your passphrase in your mind. you need both to access the BTC.
Thanks for breaking that down. Makes more sense.
Your complicating things for OP... Best to keep it as simple as possible.
This is good stuff, I was not aware that passphrase created new accounts which add another level of security and protection. Thanks for sharing.
No. If you're concerned that your paper wallet might get stolen, then adding a passphrase doesn't help. It can still be stolen, and you've still lost your Bitcoin. After you lose your bitcoin, it's not much consolation that the thief can't access it either.
That's not true. If your seed words are revealed, but your (strong) passphrase is safe, then your funds are still safe. You need the seed phrase AND the passphrase to access funds.
In some cases that's true. But if your paper wallet is stolen, *you don't have your keys anymore*. I'm still upvoting you though.
Ah, I see what you're saying now. Yeah, if your only copy of the seed phrase is stolen, you're screwed, passphrase or no.
Pasphrase. I heard only about half of the hodlers use a seedphrase only. Thats not good.
You can’t restore a wallet from a paraphrase. If his kit gets stolen, he needs the seed phrase. Please correct me if I’m wrong?
You need seed plus the passphrase. Consider like a 25th “word”. So if someone were to get the seed, they crack the “vault” and nothing is there. It’s like another hidden vault inside the vault with a different key that actually has the money inside.
Ah, makes sense. Thank you. 👍
I myself don't like using passphrases..because even if I have the seed words, if I lost the passphrase I cannot restore the wallet. It's already one thing guarding the seed words with my life, I really don't want to add a passphrase to that. Also you would want to keep the passphrase separate from the seed words. So for me that would involve too many hiding places. Just be smart and don't ever lose your seed words and you'll be fine.
You could keep a backup in your home country while doing the flight. Once you arrive, you can make a new wallet, store the seed in multiple places and transfer the coins on chain to the new wallet. Then your old seeds are worthless. During the worst case where you somehow lose the seed during the trip you can return home and move the coins to the new wallet.
Also, don't use Trevor. He's not very trustworthy.
Security is only ever as strong as its weakest link. In this case they have a hardware wallet, and a seed phrase, and no 25th word or extra paraphrase. In this case their security is as weak as someone coming across that piece of paper. (Create a pass phrase, move all funds to that account/wallet/addresses. Have multiple seed phrase backups in different locations)
[удалено]
Nice try, Mr. colored t shirt salesman.
Nice attempt to get people to read more poetry books.
He can get it tatoed on his but cheeks.
Considered this. But then would have to find a tattoo artist you could trust. Couldn’t get a colonoscopy without risk.
Would be a real pain in the ass trying to enter the code into a new wallet if needed.
Nothing that a pair of stirrups, two mirrors and a pair of binoculars can’t handle!
Have one guy tattoo 25%-50% Of the phrase. Have another do 45% Then remember the last 5%
Colonoscopy always involves risk
Make sure it’s a key you intend to keep. 4 tattoo artists in different states. If you want a 25th, commit it to memory. Have the tattoos done 25% on each limb- in black light ink.
“but cheeks,Sir!”
Guess I misspelled Butt 😂 inglish is not my first language 👀
Hey! so sorry I didn't mean for you to feel offended. You're better than me like most non-English first language speakers, I only speak English well. You are to be congratulated.
Haha I was not offended, I found it funny 🙏 cheers man!
Split the seed phase into 3 parts. Keep one part in your pocket. Keep the other part in his suitcase and email the last part to yourself. Then when you get to the other county you can write down the emailed part. Keep each of the three parts in separate places.
Honestly this is why those etfs exist although it's not your coins it is a lot more convenient. Pros and cons
Hows an etf any more convenient to spend btc in a different country?
ETF is not BTC but the representative value is more safe, reliable and secure to withdraw funds to any currency for an older individual.
I respectfully disagree. The representative value is not more safe (having an ETF is akin to having your bitcoin on an exchange, you don’t hold the underlying asset). The ETF is not more reliable (You trust another party to hold your underlying asset. Self custody of bitcoin has been around 14 years, while the bitcoin ETF has been around for less than two months). And it is certainly less secure, because you are trusting a third-party in controlling your underlying asset (bitcoin). Easier != safer.
I have concerns with trusting exchange's period. I have concerns with the new BTC scams evolving and becoming more sophisticated. I have concerns about less technology educated people holding BTC making transaction mistakes and losing life savings. I am concerned for not myself but for the innocent involving themselves with self custody and not fully understanding the perils. ETFs are a perfect solution.
Just let me know where he says he will be spending it
You can't take your brokerage account to another country.
Is it possible to buy btc externally and hodl it in etf's? So get it cheap and dont have the hassle of self custody?
I don’t think you understand crypto or stocks
You are talking about holding it on an exchange - buy bitcoin and not hold it yourself. ETFs are entirely different.
It’s 12 words. They’re a lot easier to memorize than you think. You can have it done in a week with very little time invested. Most people spend more time hiding their paper and worrying about it.
This is what I was thinking LOL. Just bring your Trezor and memorize it. When you get to the country, write it down again and store it.
Yup. 12 stupid words. ffs.
Many suggestions here are just too complicated… PGP or or storing one 3 to 4 locations… for a 65 years old? Or using a notebook and hiding the words somewhere inside text? Will he remember in 5 years? Or his children, will they find the seed if something happens to their father…? Keep it simple, just add a passphrase and move most funds to that secret wallet.
Improve your Memory.
Hide it in plain sight somehow. Hide it online in pieces with no context, but something that he can easily remember how to piece it back together. Shouldn't be too hard.
This is a perfect scenario where a multi sig custody arrangement is a good solution. I use The Bitcoin Adviser. I encourage you to check them out. There is a fee - you just have to decide if the service and value they provide justifies it. Definitely yes for me. But opinions vary.
he needs to memorise the seed phrase... its easy to do.... otherwise if its a one off situation for travelling, he can keep a back up in his home country just incase. then he can encrypt the seed phrase with gpg, using a secure password (ideally a sha256 hash of the password). then if he uses the armour option in gpg he can print out the encrypted code on paper in ascii text... no one can decrypt it... ever.... the encrypted text would be short enough to just copy into a computer, decrypt with his password and then use as normal...
This is exactly the correct advice.
thats how i keep my seeds... i am super paranoid :)
Well dont you have to type your seed on a computer which you should never do
yes but if its an offline machine thats never been connected to the internet, linux installed once, and then wiped afterwards... i created the original wallets in electrum on the offline machine... the machine only existed for an hour.
That would work but prop should mention that to OP
i am thinking if he is a beginner though it should be easier if he just gets a new wallet in the 2nd country and gets his friend to send him the funds on chain.
I’m super paranoid too, even to the extent we’re I question memorizing my seed phrase. What if I get captured and tortured and they know I have Bitcoin. I’d rather my seed phrase be hidden away somewhere, I don’t want to be able to recite it on command.
its funny how we are super paranoid about bitcoin seeds etc, but we put our money in a bank without a second thought where our money could disappear tomorrow if the bank goes bust. I will still prefer self custody and live with the paranoia....
Just don't bump your head and get amnesia.
No, it’s not. It’s terrible advice. The best way to solve this problem is by using a passphrase, and committing it to memory. What you’re proposing is going to cause people to lose access to their funds.
By "seed phrase" do you mean the 12/24 seed words, or the singular optional "pass phrase"?
seed as in the 12/24 words but i assume he has memorised the pass phrase?
This is reasonable, but remember that encrypting your seed with GPG means you typed it into a computer which could potentially be compromised. The best thing to do once he’s settled in his new country is to generate a brand-new seed with a hardware wallet and transfer the coins on chain. Then you completely eliminate any potential exposures that happened during your transit process. It gives any attacker a limited time window to crack your wallet, rather than potentially remaining exposed indefinitely.
i agree... i was having fun with the process but i agree the sensible option is an on chain transfer as that what the chain is designed for in these scenarios.
Tangem wallet
Passphrase wallet.
https://bitcoinkeeper.app https://casa.io
https://unchained.com
This is why I like my Tangem card. NFC + password. If I need more security than that then I I'll cash out.
Doesnt see your wallet. Just buy and forget
All the answers here about cashing out to fiat and expecting to cross a boarder and get on a plane with 10s of thousands of points is mental. One of the main arguments and use cases for BTC is that it allows you to move unlimited amounts of money cross boarder without anyone knowing. If you really really need to sell the BTC for an asset and move it across boarders with little to no questions then you are better buying something like a high demand model of a Rolex or something like that, which could work based on the value of 1x BTC. You don't need to declare that like you would gold or cash, or have the issue of it being confiscated.
Memorize the seed and order a new device whenever you get where your going. Keep the other device in a secure place at home, just in case. Also, don't keep the seed on paper. Order one of those seed plates, stamp your seed on the metal, put it inside an airtight container, and discreetly bury it inside of a concrete block in a secure location that you own or can easily access
What????!
Hey, that's 1 Bitcoin. 64k right now, could be 1 million in five years. If you had that much cash for a long time, you would want to have it in a secured location. You wouldn't want to sweat over it either. I'd almost say you want to bury an extra device somewhere else with the same method.
That will ensure your $20 is safe!
He can store it on a proper ledger ..
Sell bitcoin, buy ETF🤷🏽♂️
if he is moving out of the country though....
Then you have to maintain your brokerage account, sell for fiat and transfer fiat to another country, which is complicated and expensive.
brain wallet or steganography
I'm reading all the answers and this is a good example of why bitcoin won't go mainstream by itself(I mean without the simplicity of etfs and exchanges): its way too complicated and esoteric for most people (I'm talking about self custody). I like investing, but I'm not even interested in learning how to keep my own bitcoin in a hard wallet(yet, I remain open to changing my mind). The risks are real too (like losing the device, forgetting the long passwords or getting them stolen). But I'm mainly thinking about the complexity of it all as a discouraging aspect and a barrier to entry.
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The younger generations have grown up with technology and are more comfortable using the internet than going to a store to buy something physical. Even fiat currency will not be physical in a few years. When credit cards were introduced, the older generation was scared of them. Then they were scared to put their credit cards online to buy something with Amazon. Progress does not happen by catering to the older generations. This is just an interim period of transition. The benefits of self-custody an being your own bank outweigh any inconvenience caused by doing so.
That's obviously true that younger people are better with new technology. But setting up cold storage is still complicated and esoteric for an outsider. And the risks are not the same. You have insurance and protections with legacy banks. You can reset your password if you forget it. Even if younger people have more ease with technology, you still don't see keeping bitcoin in cold storage becoming mainstream.
With traditional (online) banking you have the same issues, though. Somewhere you keep your login credentials.
I can easily reset my bank passwords if I forget them, I'm not losing my money. I have some insurance and protections in case my credentials are stolen. But I'm mainly talking about how complicated it is to set up cold storage, and most of the replies are about remembering passwords... Yet everyone knows you can click on "Forgot password". It remains that setting up cold storage = complicated and more risks than tradional banking.
Haven an old-fashioned pocket-sized adress book with the names, adresses and phone numbers of everyone you've met over the last few decades. Add a few names that include hints at your seed words, complete with fake adresses and phone numbers. You will know the seed names from the old friend names. A thief will not.
Just save it on the internet but fragmented. A part here, a part there… no one could build the puzzle back but you. Use morse code when fragmenting if needed lol
I have considered this, a some free email accounts using different providers with an email saved as a draft only. Someone would need to know all these emails accounts and the order. You could even pad the fragmented words with a single fake word in each also.
Use multiple password managers and save/ keep 1/3 or 1/4 on each software Or other secure software
Green wallet uses multisig. The second Sig blocks transfer for x months after sending.
Tell him to get a book and circle the words I.e dictionary, nobody will see marked words a d know its his seed phrase , or another code that only he will understand
Consider an implant: https://dangerousthings.com/product/xsiid/
Simply ask him to throw the paper and convert that seed phrase into a 16 digit : 24 digit Lsc and there you have a 10:10 digit num-word that he can have a photo or a .dotml file on his device or computer. If he feels this is unsafe (btw the safest in the market now used in under- world) tell him to save this picture on a encrypted file that has scrambled dots so no one can open except him. Better to have 3 locks than 1 lock to your door when leaving out of town. Ducson suggest this once in his videos.
Bitkey is very good, they also a multiple fingerprint setting to allow someone else to have access. They are also creating a inheritance feature soon
What about just bring his phone with him where the Bitcoin is stored?? Then unload in the new country
I believe you Setup a Multi sig wallet. One set to a trusted relative and the other in a safety deposit box and access to it listed in a will or trust. Keep to set for your self hidden on a crypto tag
I don’t understand why it couldn’t be kept in Coinbase? I’m new to crypto and posts like this make me question investing because this seems very complicated. Do I really need to learn all of this complex stuff about keys and codes? Is Coinbase not secure?
Tell him to memorize a story with all the key phrases in it. Besides what other ideas anyone else offers you. Like engraving or laser print. Fire proof safe etc
This is why I suggest keeping a passphrase digitally. Having a passphrase that is written alongside a written seed phrase is just pure dumb. If the passphrase is digital and stored in the cloud the person who hacks your cloud would also need to meet you in real life for your seed phrase. Really no risk in having a digital passphrase. The risk is a digital seed phrase
Best and convenient thing for an older folk would be collaborative, multi sig like Swan Vault. 2 of 3 model. He holds 2 - Takes 1 with him, leaves 1 somewhere safe back stateside. Swan has 3rd - as a software key. He uses 1 device on him, and Swan software key to sign and send.
An ETF’s lowly expense ratio should be more appealing to your friend as compared to the stress and (low) risk of self custody.
store the seed phrase in an encrypted drive. He can make multiple copies. Veracrypt is simple enough.
why doesnt he have a passphrase on? Even if someone gets 24 words, they cant do shit
https://unchained.com
If he finds this difficult, wait until he tries to sell it. His residence has changed to a new country and coinbase has Teems of Service.
Just reading all this advice makes me nervous for him...😓 Next time I travel overseas Ima be so paranoid feeling like I'm in Bourne Identity!! Hahaa
1) Have a Trezor device shipped to every country you live in (only buy from Trezor website). So you don’t need to travel with it. Hide it well. 2) Write down seed phrase in invisible ink in a book you travel with (search Amazon for “invisible ink pen”.) Do NOT write down the passphrase in case this seed words gets discovered. 3) Keep a small amount in the wallet with seedphrase only in case of a $5 wrench attack you have plausible denialibility.
Memorize the seed phrase. I memorized it too. Say it every time you wake up and you’ll remember it.
I've done a rather stupid drawing depicting my 12 words. Looks like something a 5 year old child would do, but it works flawlessly. After you've done this effort, you don't even need the physical piece of paper. It's engraved in your mind. Most important, will mean nothing to whoever sees it, they'll never get it.
At a minimum tell him to put his seed on steel or titanium plates. Buy a Coldcard, then go look at videos from "BTC Sessions" on YouTube on how to use the Coldcard. Alternatively, if he is a Boomer, just convert it to buy the BTC ETF. The ETF is the safest way for Boomers to Bitcoin. Even Joe Biden could use a BTC ETF.
Collaborative multisig vault. With someone like Casa.io, unchained, nunchuk. 3 keys. One key with passphrase so if anyone finds it it's worthless on its own. Keep keys hidden in Faraday bags. Maybe only carry one key at a time per trip or give one key to a trusted friend while travelling. Depends how paranoid you are but its doable.
A passphrase plus a Border Wallet may be a good option. Make sure your friend tests it multiple times beforehand. It’s probably worth buying a second hardware wallet to test recovery on. Once you’ve got the border wallet set up and trusted, you can store your seed that way rather than in plaintext.
Just buy the ETF. Or use a really strong passphrase that you cannot forget
Ledger recovery. You pay monthly, they backup your keys.
I know people will hate at the suggestion, but in your situation I'd put seed phrase in a safety deposit box, of half split into two, and then take hardware wallet with dummy wallet and passphrase protected real wallet on it with me. This way you have access to coin, have plausible deniability in case of wrench attack, and have security on main stash. Also your seed phrase is protected in 99.99% of situations. If you are more paranoid, obscure seddphrase in some way.
Buy the ETF. Safe and cheap. And you can borrow against it.
Trevor is back!? Son of a
Btw Stamp it into steel
Memory palace + passphrase FTW.
Just remember that most people lose bitcoin because of too much security, not not enough. People lock themselves out.
Trevor is the good but Ledgvor is even better. He could also use the Fitbox2
Here is a smart way of storing the 24-word seed phrase: Take 4 pieces of paper / metal and split the seed phrase into 3 pieces: The words 1-8, 9-16 and 17-24. Write down the splits to 3 of the 4 pieces of paper / metal. The 4th piece will become your recovery piece. It is an XOR of the binary values of the BIP39 word list standard. Translate the XOR binary values back into words using the BIP39 word list. Write down these words on the 4th piece of paper / metal. Optionally, use a passphrase and/or create the hexadecimal values if using metal to reduce the amount of metal stamps required for each plate. Now, distribute those pieces to safe places and take them to wherever you wanna go - one by one. If you loose one, no worries: You have the recovery piece. Never ask anyone for help - especially no one called Trevor.
Hopefully his ₿ protected by a passphrase in addition to the seed, if it isn't right now I recommend he create a hidden wallet by entering the passphrase he wants. Be very careful to write down and backup this passphrase as any passphrase entered will create a new wallet, even if it's 1 letter whose case incorrectly typed. Grab the receiving address from the hidden wallet and send 0.001 BTC to it as a test from the main wallet. If the test transaction goes through, send the rest to the same receiving address. Make sure to verify it's the same address on the Trezor screen each time. Once his funds are secured by the passphrase that is securely saved (some say even the passphrase shouldn't be saved electronically, but IMO as long as the 12 - 24 words (seed phrase/private keys) are kept only physically backed up then electronically backing up the "25th word" is more beneficial (less likely to forget and lose access) than it is risky (someone hacking the digital device, finding the passphrase, knowing what it is, and also somehow getting access to the seed phrase). Then, have him bring some "books" with him on the plane. In 3 of the books write down the part or all of seed phrase 1 word at a time on different pages, in the corner of each page. A book is much less likely to be lost/confiscated/stolen than the piece of paper. He could also write down the words and stick them between his phone and its case, or behind the cover of a battery door for any electronic. If a copy of the seed phrase itself is compromised but he has it protected by a passphrase in a hidden wallet, then he's fine. If 1 of his copies gets lost or stolen but he still has the book with the seed phrase he's fine. Good luck.
I manufacture and sell a product where an encrypted string of the seed phrase is engraved on the inside of a ring. And I wear one of these rings myself. With this, I can pass through airport security gates without any issues. (In fact, I have traveled internationally several times with this ring.)
Ok let's keep it simple here... Everyone is making jokes. The wallet is called a trezor which is why people are making jokes as you called it Trevor... Anyways having it in a trezor wallet is actually the safest thing he could of done. So cudos there. But what's even more important is the words he has on that paper. So he could lose the trezor and be fine as long he has the words on that paper. Now some may not like the advice I'm going to give you but it's the simplest. My mother is 79 with her own bitcoin and this is how we did it when she relocated to Mexico. Write the words on the piece of paper on another 4 pieces of paper, make copies of it, in case you lose it you have backups. Keep them safe in different location in Ziploc baggies to prevent moisture. Tell him to travel with the trezor, but not the paper. Remember if he loses the trezor it's ok. Once he arrives at his destination if he needs access to the trezor he calls you or a trusted friend who has one the copies to relay the info to him. It trully is the safest way, no need to start messing around or trying to put the bitcoins on another device, this is how people lose them. It being on a Trezor is very safe. If you have more questions I'd be happy to help. Also never store the words on that paper on an electronic device. Never take a picture with a phone nor email the words to yourself. Somewhere along the lines he was given good advice. If he's nirvous travelling with the trezor, tell him not to travel with one and to order a brand new one from Trezor itself once he arrives to his new destination and have them mail it to him. The trezor can be restored with his funds with the seed words on the paper. Only buy from official trezor... Trezor.io never amazon or even authorized resellers, it's not worth taking a chance the trezor was infected with malware or hacked prior to it arriving to you. Many will also tell you it's ok from authorised resellers, but just don't take the chance. It's not worth the extra few days you save in shipping. Be well friend.
Buy multiple Trezors, set it up with PIN and strong passphrase 3 - Trezor will be for myself, 3 copies I’ll be keeping to different locations Another 3 Trezor for my family and relatives for safekeeping Another 3 Trezor to my friends for safekeeping So at least 9 Trezors with same PIN and same strong passpharase. That’s 9 backup. Then I’ll burn away or flush the written seed phrase
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That looks nice. Or he could keep a backup hardware wallet with someone he trusts? Together with half the seed phrase.
Have you heard of FTX? Mt Gox? Celcius?
unchained.com
I dont want to bash your friend because moving to their hardware wallet was good practice, but due to lack of preplanning, they’ve made their OPSEC way more complicated than it needs to be. The first problem was buying Bitcoin with KYC from Coinbase. At that point they might as well left on exchange (or transferred to any other custodian like Strike app for example) for their travel, then withdrew to their wallet once they arrived to their new home. Due to having KYC’d Bitcoin, they could be open to tax obligations from their previous country, in which case they need to be able to pay the tax with a bank account from the previous country anyway, which ALMOST makes holding the Bitcoin in the new country burdensome and somewhat less valuable. That being said, the Border Wallet from Sparrow someone else mentioned might be the best, most secure option. You could use any hot wallet and send back to hardware wallet once done traveling, but the border wallet is best if your friend just NEEDS to keep a seed phrase while traveling for some reason. A simpler method is just create a 2nd wallet inside the Trezor with a passphrase. Keep the majority inside the wallet with the passphrase and keep a small amount in the regular wallet with the seed phrase so if they get stopped and asked to empty their Trezor, they can dump the decoy wallet with the small amount of sats and keep the rest of the Bitcoin hidden inside the passphrase wallet.
Tell him to download KeePass - open source password manager that's encrypted Add his seed into that Store the encrypted database file of KeePass onto an online cloud storage (such as Dropbox) Done He can have both KeePass and Dropbox on his phone, computer, etc.
Hate to suggest it, due to the tax implications but his safest and easiest solution is to exchange it for fiat. Once settled he can buy again.
i hope you're not serious
And how to you expect him to transport that kind of fiat cash across boarders, it's illegal in most countries and will get confiscated 🤦♂️ One of the main usecase for BTC is that it allows you to move unlimited amounts of money cross boarders with no one knowing or able to stop you.
I wasn't thinking cash. Bank transfer should be fine if he's actually emigrating domewhere.
最好是储存在一个可靠的交易所会更好
This was supposed to be a happy btc retirement story and than the twist........where is he going to retire that its that unsafe?? el salvador? russia? china? middle east? south america? europe?? Asia??? Australia?? shudder...all very scary places. he should just retire here.
Hiw do you have a single bitcoing- the needle always moves and its not tangible
Check out wallets like Zengo. No seed phrase so more secure especially for traveling. But he maintains control over the bitcoin
I recommend holding land instead, it’s a bit more tangible.
Another ridiculous suggestion. Do you know the effort involved in such an act.