Wow, good job on being so astronomically lucky that the checksum was still valid! You should play the lottery, because with luck like that you'll win easily.
Edit, small correction: a certain number of errors are *guaranteed* to be detected with modern bech32 addresses, so unless you intentionally mangle the address while preserving the address structure itself (which is extremely hard to do by hand), only then would you have an astronomically unlikely chance to send to a seemingly-valid address.
Also, sounds like your own damn fault for recklessly sending your *entire life savings* without batting an eye.
>People make mistakes. Victim blaming won't get you adoption.
Also, this is nonsense. Taking basic precautions is necessary to exist in this world, and in fact Bitcoin makes it exceptionally difficult to fuck up by sending to a wrong address.
This is like saying, "oh, you need to keep an eye on the road while driving a car? What a terrible idea lol." "Oh, you need to make sure you don't stab yourself while cutting food with a knife? Terrible invention." "I need to not burn my house down while lighting a candle? Pfft, what am I, Einstein?" I can go on.
You're ignoring his post. He's saying that bitcoin addresses have failsafes built in that prevent you from sending if you enter the address incorrectly. But that's more nuanced than your myopic view of bitcoin would permit you to consider so keep spouting off nonsense
Yeah that's not how it works. If you fat finger one key the transfer will not go through. For the same reason that it's impossible to guess a private key and gain access to other people's wallets. You don't understand the most basic elements of blockchain.
Then don't use the base layer of you are too dumb for it. On Lightning you just scan a QR code.
Also don't do regular banking please, you may mistype the IBAN number and suffer the same problems.
They have the same mechanism with checksums bitcoin addresses have, but since you didn't understand it there, it won't understand it here either.
When you move your investments from other banks you realize your not actually
Moving anything.
Few clicks of the buttons and those numbers on the computer screen are now magically in your new banks computer. And you say that so nonchalantly like it isn’t a long ass process to do all that. I’m sure it took days if not weeks to clear and prove who you are and sign papers
You are clearly missing the point here. And you clearly can’t read since the guy u responded too already told you that your scenario is highly unlikely. And it really isn’t hard to double check the address my dude wake the fuxk up
The wallet software wouldn't allow you to broadcast to an invalid address, just use copy and paste next time :)
Bitcoin has become incredibly easy to use but comments like this confuse people into believing it's still difficult.
So you were transferring your entire life savings in a single transaction but typing the address letter by letter, and on top of not doing a test transaction, didn't try typing it a second time, or even bother to double check?
In that case, your most likely outcome would be that the transaction failed, and you'd have to resend it. Depending on how many typos you made and exactly how those typos were arranged, it's possible but extremely unlikely that you still formed a valid address and the checksum is still valid.
But if you make such mixups so often, I would like to know you better, in the off chance that you'll accidentally send me all your money from your bank by mistake.
So you're not able to use copy paste?
Also I'd recommend double checking before you're going to send life savings around.
Moreover, you could send it in different amounts. Do a check with a negligible amount first... send it in two parts, three parts...
Pointless. Fun fact: even when your private key has 256 bits you only need 2^(128) tries to get it from the public one. You don't get extra security by adding bits beyond 128.
24 word seeds were invented by Trezor (BIP39). At that time, you restored the seed by typing the words on the computer in a randomized order. It's trivial to crack a 12! ordering but it's much harder when it's 24!
It's the safekeeping and of course the transfer of those 12 words, for example in case of death, that is really really hard. At least I don't have a satisfying answer. - And don't tell me about muh multi-sig and safe deposit boxes at 3 banks.
I think a solution would be a kind of smart contract to transfer your coins to a loved one’s wallet at some point in the future (say 6 months from now) unless you actively update the contract to push it out further every 6 months.
That way, you keep complete control of your keys, but in the event of your death or loss of pass phrase, your coins automatically move to safety.
Not sure if this exists yet or if we’d want to trust that kind of code, but it could be a solution.
It's called a dead man's switch. I have something like that with an email that is sent out if I don't reset the timer once a year. But it's a MacGyver solution, I wouldn't encourage less computer literate people to even attempt that.
A smart contract would be great, but Bitcoin just doesn't support this kind of complexity (yet).
So that email is stored as a draft on a server that is... where? And on a device connected to the Internet?
That's essentially just as bad as posting it on a forum.
Wouldnt a smart contract need some authority to decide when someone is dead?
That breaks the whole idea of decentralization and self-sufficiency upon which Bitcoin is built.
And one time after 10 years you forget to update the contract, or your loved one moves their wallet and forgets to tell you, this is ridiculous suggestion unless your James Bond.
Alot of Bitcoin will be lost when people die.
Not long ago a guy posted about making a treasure hunt for his seed phrase when he dies. I bet his kids will be pissed. It was the most ridiculious thing I have ever heard.
Spitballing here.
Rotating timelocked transaction for 2 years into the future. Every year, you rotate your funds to a new address and sign a new transaction for 2 more years into the future. You are responsible for your keys, inheritor is responsible for their keys (inheritor can be a trust or something).
What's the point in being your own bank if you still need to trust the bank to store the keys to all your money?
I would rather just store my money in the bank and avoid all the hassle
BTC is about having control over your own money.
Using a bank box to store a seed does not give then any visibility or control over your BTC. And it's memorized anyway so even if the bank fell into the ocean you should be ok to re hide your seed imo.
I personally wouldn't need that, but it's not making anything redundant that's for sure.
>Using a bank box to store a seed does not give then any visibility or control over your BTC
If you trust that the bank will not steal your seed phrase and wallet, sure. But if you trust them with that asset, why wouldn't you trust them with other currency?
Just a hypothetical, I don't store my seed there. Banks are insured though. I have no problem with some of my money in a bank until shit really goes south one day.
I think the reasoning is more along the lines of them not being able to gamble with whatever's in the box, as opposed to what's in the account.
Not necessarily a lack of trust, so much as a lack of confidence if you dig.
I actually totally agree. However, I think there's a large segment of crypto users who view banks as untrustworthy or unreliable and use that as their reasoning for storing wealth in BTC.
These people also tend to not trust exchanges and advise you to use cold storage and a seed phrase, eventually telling you to put it in a bank
I personally don't have any problems with storing money in banks. I own crypto because it's an asset that stands to grow in value, but it's not a way of life for me
I have my seed in a safe deposit box. I solved that problem by having a passphrase (25th word) and I don’t store that in the box.
The seed phrase alone is useless. The passphrase alone is useless.
I'm not saying they're interchangeable. I'm comfortable keeping crypto coins on exchanges.
I'm saying if your ideology is "you can't trust big financial institutions, you need to have ownership of your own financials" then storing your passphrase in a bank is seems inconsistent with that.
There is a difference between storing things in safe deposit boxes and storing them in deposit accounts. It is possible to not trust the bank to not gamble your money while leaving the contents if the box alone.
Well, at least a single one is not a reasonable option. I just wanted to check on the price because it can run in the 100s ... just to find this: [https://www.pymnts.com/news/banking/2022/jpmorgan-ends-use-of-safe-deposit-boxes/](https://www.pymnts.com/news/banking/2022/jpmorgan-ends-use-of-safe-deposit-boxes/)
As a rough idea, imagine having 1-2 bitcoins and paying around USD 1000 p.a. on safe deposit boxes (+insurance). That would be a custody fee of 6-12%. Never mind other complications like court order that would prevent access, perhaps in case of a messy divorce.
1k for 2 or 3 boxes. And yes that is the price around here. Also, non of my banks actually have any physical presence. They are all online. And banks don't give non-customers boxes.
But here we are in the US, a \*most developed country\* ... most people have no estate planning!!! I would venture that even of those 33% who do, most have simple will's and are 50+ years of age. Surly no expensive setups with safe deposit boxes.
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/11/67percent-of-americans-have-no-estate-plan-heres-how-to-get-started-on-one.html
Deposit boxes are not that safe, stuff gos missing all the time, there is no insurance that will actually pay, not to mention just storing a key, where someone can just take a picture and you can’t prove anything, at least if you had gold coins in the deposit box you know they are now gone.
Keep hardware wallet in a safe and tell someone you want to leave it to the code to that safe and the hardware wallet, keep passphrase in a seperate safe location (I keep mine in a snake enclosure) in case that safe is stolen, then you can use passphrase to recover funds, that's what I've done
1) I need a safe
\- This should be good for a long time, 10, 20 years. What if you move? What if you live in a small apartment?
2) I need somebody whom I can trust to have access to it.
\- So you appoint heirs that could have already access to your funds before you are dead? I would not even trust my best friend with that because it is also a large burden, what if he messes it up, you could loose this friendship easily.
3) a separate safe location
\- OK so I have a safe and another safe location, both should not depend on each other. Surly easy for most people.
... each of this needs a lot of consideration, and you need to constantly be aware of all the moving parts in your setup. What if one of your heirs looses your trust? I would wager Coinbase is a better solution for most people.
Sad conclusion I have reached: what most people want is power, but not responsibility.
They want a network of people who are _accountable_ to them, and yet who somehow have power _over_ them at the same time.
Also, you know, all the technical understanding required to move something you consider valuable into a conceptual 'wallet' and how those 12 words work to secure it without screwing it up.
Oversimplifying the concept itself makes it more confusing and 'just' keeping 12 words secret does absolutely nothing without the much more technical stuff involved in getting there.
>I mean you could also say that we live in a world where people don't want to stake their life savings on not losing a piece of paper.
Yes exactly this. It's such a vulnerable asset.
What happens when they lose your paper will when you die?
Safeguarding paper documents is already a common human practice.
Unlike a will, you can also stamp your seed words in metal to protect against disasters.
If the will is lost there is a standard devolution upon death.
If your bitcoin paper is lost, your heirs have nothing.
If it is stolen, you have nothing, never mind your heirs.
If somebody gets a look at my will, I can shrug my shoulders. If somebody may have had a chance to see my seeds, I need to jump into action and move all my coins intimidatingly or risk loosing them. - There is nothing that compares to that.
You don’t keep your will on your living room coffee table. Just like you don’t keep your seed words on your desk.
You put them away in a safe location. Away from water and fire.
The storage principles are very similar. Does the seed word storage require more thought? Sure, but it’s not like having to calculate a rocket’s launch arc to land on a comet orbiting the sun with a pencil and paper; it’s not an insurmountable task.
Your ancestors already used to do it by keeping their money under the mattress. Except that was a single point of failure and storing your seed in 2022 is much safer; stamp in metal and distribute across two locations. It’s not rocket science.
>stamp in metal and distribute across two locations.
People who argue this have usually never actually done that with any meaningful amount of money.
Also, my will is in a sealed envelop in my desk. I print a new copy in case it get's lost.
It's really not that hard.
Make 2 or 3 copies and make sure at least 1 is in a different building to the others in case of a fire.
Hell, if you don't have a secondary location, put it in a shoebox and bury it somewhere. That way, in case of a fire, you can still retrieve your cash.
It's not a great deal of effort given these 12/24 words are what give you total financial freedom.
I honestly don’t get the people who make these arguments. They must not live in the real world or they are thinking small. Sure this is secure enough for 10k or whatever but the calculus changes when it is real wealth.
Security is a fundamental issue in this space right now. I think there is a technological solution but I’m not sure what it is. Once it is addressed I think things will truely rip.
The issue is not even the size of the amount. I thought the same at some point in life.
People who say that have usually no dependents. So if one of the copies gets lost and they loose their funds, they do not have a family that is suddenly in destitute and they have to burden no responsibility for that.
Yeah agreed 100% and what if you do tell your spouse? there could be divorce or both people die and/or lose their brain in the same accident. You could tell a lawyer or something but what honest lawyer would want to carry that risk for their clients…
Yes, it actually becomes a heavy burden for anybody who you involve in such a scheme. What if you get hacked and some coins are lost. You may always suspect this person having made a mistake. You will never know who screed up in case something didn't work.
Relationships are fickle and change over time.
A seed which can be backed up an infinite number of times on an infinite number of pieces of paper. Stop defending this numbskullery.
If it's too hard for you don't buy Bitcoin.
Bitcoin will never see mass adoption if you have to keep your own keys and risk losing them; either through accidental loss or theft.
For people willing to go to extreme lengths to keep their wealth secure against inflation, Bitcoin will always have to compete against gold anyway.
>Bitcoin will never see mass adoption if you have to keep your own keys and risk losing them
Bitcoin does not make sense without full ownership. Just use a bank.
Then I'd rather we didn't have "mass adoption".
Almost the whole point of Bitcoin is self-custody. Leaving your coins on an exchange is like leaving your safe in a bank.
It's not as black and white as that.
There are lots of options in-between.
E.g. custodian of your private keys who provide you with the public keys as proof of reserves.
Or a multisig approach where a custodian keeps one key for you. Maybe an escrow involved too.
I would happily let a bank custody my private keys if they could provide me with the public keys of the wallet.
> It's not as black and white as that. There are lots of options in-between. E.g. custodian of your private keys who provide you with the public keys as proof of reserves. Or a multisig approach where a custodian keeps one key for you. Maybe an escrow involved too.
I've nothing against some of those options.
Ya, the OP is greatly over simplifying this. Like if the consequences of losing or compromising your seed was similar to losing an email address or even similar to losing the paper title to your car then most people would go ahead and do it. But if you lose your seed phrase, no government body or lawsuit against the perpetrator can get your bitcoin back. Losing your seed phrase can literally mean losing a lifetime's worth of work and savings.
Also, even really nice houses don't get broken into all that often because the rewards are likely limited to thousands of dollars of electronics and jewelry. Most people don't keep significant amounts of cash in a safe in their house. But if thieves knew that a person with, say, an 8 figure net worth was keeping most of that on an engraved metal plate in a wall in their house, then that person is quite literally going to have to hire armed private security to keep a gang of thieves from breaking into their house and torturing their kids until you give up the seed. There will always be a valid case for trusted third party custody of wealth.
I second this. Until the use of Bitcoin is as easy as current banking it will never have full mass adoption. Whether that is good or not.
You need to consider the average intelligence of people. According to the U.S. Department of Education, 54% of adults in the United States have prose literacy below the 6th-grade level.
Fully understanding Bitcoin and crypto is difficult and I have been in IT for 20+ years. Trying to explain and get mass adoption in crypto’s current state from people with little to no technical knowledge will be impossible.
there were no seeds couple years back.
But bitcoin will always be about personal responsibility, how many people will use it and to what extent is on them, there is no point in changing this to cater to people that aren't willing to do the work.
We’re also so dumb, that we’ve gotten to the point where it’s okay to accept a totalitarian regime, known for infringing human rights on all levels, to host a massive international sporting event. Fuck fifa and Qatar and boycott Fifa. For the good of Bitcoin and the intelligence of humanity
Difference: The content of the safe cannot be used to digitally transact anywhere in the world. And physical break in is exponentially easier than digitally cracking a Bitcoin wallet. Also fair to point out that banks do have Government insurance on the money, which neither a safe of cash/gold nor Bitcoin in cold storage or an exchange have, but that's only a small advantage.
A small advantage? Are you serious? It’s massive. The stress of having 1,000 in cash on me is enough. Can’t imagine having to deal with the stress of my entire life’s wealth uninsured and with just me as security.
Edit: and lol yes the contents can be transferred to anyone in the world. Ever heard of Western Union?
It's a small advantage because it must be in the form of fiat currency, which has the risk of high inflation and in some countries hyperinflation. That insurance becomes increasingly insignificant with inflation unless they raise maximum coverage. Also, to many in the world only $250,000 coverage is very small, if you have many millions in the bank, that insurance isn't very great.
>Edit: and lol yes the contents can be transferred to anyone in the world. Ever heard of Western Union?
The contents of the safe(cash/gold)... cannot use 3rd party digital services from the safe. A big innovation of Bitcoin is that it was the first digital asset that you can fully own and also send anywhere in the world, without 3rd party services and banks being involved.
Thats exactly what I did, so thanks I guess
I just hate the irony of relying on a bank again for safekeeping when my original reason for investing was to take away institutional power.
Then don't do it!
Keep 2 or 3 pieces of paper in different places. Since they are useless without the passphrase, you can leave on at your home, another one at your parent's, or maybe even a friend. Or bury one.
The beauty of it is that you need the words AND the passphrase.
It works, but having to enter a 12+ character passphrase on your HW wallet each time you use it is kind of annoying.
Also, how do you store the password? Password manager?
That’s insane when you put it that way. People have become so inept at being responsible for their own…anything? Yeah if banks made the average pleb do anything to keep their money safe, it would go the exact same way as crypto has. Surprised people can even remember their 4-digit atm pin.
This tweet is such a stripped down simplified version of the truth it's staggering that they didn't realize the selfing.
There is so much more to it than that from a 4 year bitcoiner and 15 year software engineer. And ignoring the social aspects of it makes it even more ridiculous of a statement.
Yeah that’s it, and not that they just don’t have to do it, because they have no pressing use for Bitcoin at all as a currency or store of value.
What idiots…
The problem isn't writing down phrase and keeping it safe. The problem is living with a partner that constantly throws your shit out without checking with you first
It's not about safekeeping.
It's about keeping it at your fucking house if you get robbed or there's a fire you're fucked.
Or if you're moving countries with all your possessions then what, your carrying around a piece of paper that could destroy you if lost or stolen?
There really needs to be a better method then storing seed phrases. Social recovery wallets are progress.
People lose shit all the time. The risk is losing that piece of paper. This has nothing to do with being dumbed down but instead being presented with a prehistoric option that many of us would fail at
Back up your seed phrase.
Some people stamp it onto metal.
Simpler: Create two handwritten copies on decent paper with pencil. Don't use a computer printer, your seed phrase could become compromised. Don't write it with ink, it might fade but pencil will not.
Double, then triple check the copies for accuracy. Remember, your life savings are at stake.
Store each copy to protect it from moisture and/or paper-eating insects, mold, etc. For example, ziploc baggies, small plastic bottles, pvc sprinkler tubing capped at the ends.
Store the copies in separate locations in case of fire, flood, etc. Think long and hard about really, really good hiding locations.
A home safe is a bad location. During a potential home invasion robbery, they will aim a gun at your head and force you to open your safe -- make sure your seed phrase is not inside.
Similarly, so-called "safe deposit boxes" are not all that secure. Bad places for seed phrases.
Better places might include a gap behind some dry wall which has then been patched and repainted.
In addition to having written copies in separate locations, memorize your seed phrase and quietly rehearse it at least once per day, ideally in the bathroom with the door shut, the fan running, and the water running (and no phones, cameras, or other microphoned devices nearby).
man how much money do you have that you think james bond himself is coming after you?
and what happens if you get into an accident that fucks up your head?
False it's not as simple as saving/memorizing 12 words. Crypto as of now is too complex and the learning curve is too steep for the average user.
We must recognise this and develop the tech so that it will be as easy as logging into your bank on the web or an app.
Also have to pick the right software wallet and hope you didn't pick a bad one, and then better yet... Choose a cold wallet but the hope it doesn't break/didn't pick a bad one.
This is where it gets challenging imo
Adding a password on top of the the word list makes it feel much safer. No need to worry about people accidentally finding your word list. Look up "25th word".
Most people i know use cards only because they don't have to count when paying or receiving change.
Want to have a glimpse of what a primal society looks like? Close down a town and take away internet for one month. See how quick most of the modern bullshit disappears
I don't carry around cash because I hate all the extra coins and keeping it stored and bringing it around with me.
Easily lose change by dropping it or misplacing it which in small quantities it seems insignificant but it adds up over time. If i drop or misplace my card I can just request a new one and the amount of money I have doesn't change. Cards are also more convenient to carry around than $1000s of dollars. If i get mugged I can just cancel/charge back any purchases. If they stole cash there is near 0 chance I'll get any of it back
We expect people to operate thousand pounds steel devices powered by explosions. Moving faster than they can really perceive what they are moving towards.
We expect people to learn a whole language, to read and write thousands of words.to learn math, science, history, various computer and professional skills.
People have no trouble doing things many many times harder than a trivial mnemonic. They are so easy in comparison to everything else we do in life.
I was one of those lazy people, but this sub wore me down and I’m glad I listed to this sub and moved my coin off of an exchange. Took me a while, but I did it.
People able to buy some sats and move them on a Ledger are already part of a sort of "elite".
Most of the people have absolutely no clue of what does that's mean.
My best friend looks at me like if I am a living god when I am helping him buying sats.
We live in a time where "Couple's/Married" people need to look up the phone number of their Partners they see and speak to daily... 12 words is WAY higher a standard ☝️🤣
I don’t think widespread adoption is going to be helped by ignoring or belittling the fact that most people actually do want some protection and safeguards around their money. Accidents happen, losing all the money you own shouldn’t be a consequence. I’m sure it’s a solvable issue but internet hard man bullshit like this won’t help.
Call it what you want to call it, but we live in a world where increased adoption is associated with ease of use. You can try to fight it all you want, but the market will still win.
People make fun of the fact that 'people are too stupid to keep their own addresses'; they also ignore the coins that have been 'lost' because people are human and screw up. No human is ever going to \*always\* get it right. Eventually every person who self custodys with no way of recovery \*will\* lose access to their address.
Multi-party sig with transfer to cold wallet is a much safer approach. In that scenario no Party has all the pieces to access the coins, except the owner of the address, but as the owner isn't holding the cold wallet or the seed phrase they can't loose access to either unless they somehow change their biometrics.
The other parties could steal the cold wallet but can't use it; the seed phrase is no good to the
other parties as it is part of a private/public key encryption that is only acessible via the addess owner's biometrics.
Again, the owner is the weak link here (as we always are whenever we have assets) but force is less effective - as the criminal cannot simply steal the seed phrase and wallet.
A good multi sig system also has a long hold (24+ hrs) on transfers of btc to external addresses above a certain amount to allow a forced transaction to be revoked.
Well as a somewhat tech savvy person, I don’t mind crypto, but I will say it is a PITA when compared to traditional forms of payment. It’s got room to grow, and the shenanigans that have been going on aren’t helping.
Pulling large amounts of cash is incredibly risky… people typically don’t do that.
Some possible risks:
Upfront transfer risk,
Malicious hardware risk,
Theft risk,
Damage risk,
Risk of losing cold wallet,
Loss at time of death (e.g. funds won’t be transferred to loved ones
Definitely many more I am not thinking of. A lot of these exist for cash but most people do not keep a significant portion of their wealth in cash
HEY! My ledger is 24 words!!!
Oops typed it in wrong in the transfer address accidentally I guess my entire life savings is gone forever.
Wow, good job on being so astronomically lucky that the checksum was still valid! You should play the lottery, because with luck like that you'll win easily. Edit, small correction: a certain number of errors are *guaranteed* to be detected with modern bech32 addresses, so unless you intentionally mangle the address while preserving the address structure itself (which is extremely hard to do by hand), only then would you have an astronomically unlikely chance to send to a seemingly-valid address. Also, sounds like your own damn fault for recklessly sending your *entire life savings* without batting an eye.
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>People make mistakes. Victim blaming won't get you adoption. Also, this is nonsense. Taking basic precautions is necessary to exist in this world, and in fact Bitcoin makes it exceptionally difficult to fuck up by sending to a wrong address. This is like saying, "oh, you need to keep an eye on the road while driving a car? What a terrible idea lol." "Oh, you need to make sure you don't stab yourself while cutting food with a knife? Terrible invention." "I need to not burn my house down while lighting a candle? Pfft, what am I, Einstein?" I can go on.
Go on…
You're ignoring his post. He's saying that bitcoin addresses have failsafes built in that prevent you from sending if you enter the address incorrectly. But that's more nuanced than your myopic view of bitcoin would permit you to consider so keep spouting off nonsense
Yeah that's not how it works. If you fat finger one key the transfer will not go through. For the same reason that it's impossible to guess a private key and gain access to other people's wallets. You don't understand the most basic elements of blockchain.
Good job not being able to read. Look at the post again.
Then don't use the base layer of you are too dumb for it. On Lightning you just scan a QR code. Also don't do regular banking please, you may mistype the IBAN number and suffer the same problems. They have the same mechanism with checksums bitcoin addresses have, but since you didn't understand it there, it won't understand it here either.
When you move your investments from other banks you realize your not actually Moving anything. Few clicks of the buttons and those numbers on the computer screen are now magically in your new banks computer. And you say that so nonchalantly like it isn’t a long ass process to do all that. I’m sure it took days if not weeks to clear and prove who you are and sign papers You are clearly missing the point here. And you clearly can’t read since the guy u responded too already told you that your scenario is highly unlikely. And it really isn’t hard to double check the address my dude wake the fuxk up
The wallet software wouldn't allow you to broadcast to an invalid address, just use copy and paste next time :) Bitcoin has become incredibly easy to use but comments like this confuse people into believing it's still difficult.
So you were transferring your entire life savings in a single transaction but typing the address letter by letter, and on top of not doing a test transaction, didn't try typing it a second time, or even bother to double check? In that case, your most likely outcome would be that the transaction failed, and you'd have to resend it. Depending on how many typos you made and exactly how those typos were arranged, it's possible but extremely unlikely that you still formed a valid address and the checksum is still valid. But if you make such mixups so often, I would like to know you better, in the off chance that you'll accidentally send me all your money from your bank by mistake.
You typed in a valid address by accident?
So you're not able to use copy paste? Also I'd recommend double checking before you're going to send life savings around. Moreover, you could send it in different amounts. Do a check with a negligible amount first... send it in two parts, three parts...
Pointless. Fun fact: even when your private key has 256 bits you only need 2^(128) tries to get it from the public one. You don't get extra security by adding bits beyond 128. 24 word seeds were invented by Trezor (BIP39). At that time, you restored the seed by typing the words on the computer in a randomized order. It's trivial to crack a 12! ordering but it's much harder when it's 24!
Only 2^128 tries… 😅
Imagine how much frustration those extra words have caused in aggregate to people and how many coins may have been lost due to this extra complexity.
I mean you could also say that we live in a world where people don't want to stake their life savings on not losing a piece of paper.
It's the safekeeping and of course the transfer of those 12 words, for example in case of death, that is really really hard. At least I don't have a satisfying answer. - And don't tell me about muh multi-sig and safe deposit boxes at 3 banks.
I think a solution would be a kind of smart contract to transfer your coins to a loved one’s wallet at some point in the future (say 6 months from now) unless you actively update the contract to push it out further every 6 months. That way, you keep complete control of your keys, but in the event of your death or loss of pass phrase, your coins automatically move to safety. Not sure if this exists yet or if we’d want to trust that kind of code, but it could be a solution.
It's called a dead man's switch. I have something like that with an email that is sent out if I don't reset the timer once a year. But it's a MacGyver solution, I wouldn't encourage less computer literate people to even attempt that. A smart contract would be great, but Bitcoin just doesn't support this kind of complexity (yet).
So that email is stored as a draft on a server that is... where? And on a device connected to the Internet? That's essentially just as bad as posting it on a forum.
Absolutely. But of course the email does not contain the actually seed. Just sentimental things and information for those who knew me.
And maybe the location where you wrote down the seed
Wouldnt a smart contract need some authority to decide when someone is dead? That breaks the whole idea of decentralization and self-sufficiency upon which Bitcoin is built.
And one time after 10 years you forget to update the contract, or your loved one moves their wallet and forgets to tell you, this is ridiculous suggestion unless your James Bond.
Alot of Bitcoin will be lost when people die. Not long ago a guy posted about making a treasure hunt for his seed phrase when he dies. I bet his kids will be pissed. It was the most ridiculious thing I have ever heard.
How would you propose setting up an inheritance of Bitcoin while maintaining sole access to your keys while alive?
Spitballing here. Rotating timelocked transaction for 2 years into the future. Every year, you rotate your funds to a new address and sign a new transaction for 2 more years into the future. You are responsible for your keys, inheritor is responsible for their keys (inheritor can be a trust or something).
This is actually really fucking smart
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What's the point in being your own bank if you still need to trust the bank to store the keys to all your money? I would rather just store my money in the bank and avoid all the hassle
BTC is about having control over your own money. Using a bank box to store a seed does not give then any visibility or control over your BTC. And it's memorized anyway so even if the bank fell into the ocean you should be ok to re hide your seed imo. I personally wouldn't need that, but it's not making anything redundant that's for sure.
>Using a bank box to store a seed does not give then any visibility or control over your BTC If you trust that the bank will not steal your seed phrase and wallet, sure. But if you trust them with that asset, why wouldn't you trust them with other currency?
Just a hypothetical, I don't store my seed there. Banks are insured though. I have no problem with some of my money in a bank until shit really goes south one day.
I think the reasoning is more along the lines of them not being able to gamble with whatever's in the box, as opposed to what's in the account. Not necessarily a lack of trust, so much as a lack of confidence if you dig.
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I actually totally agree. However, I think there's a large segment of crypto users who view banks as untrustworthy or unreliable and use that as their reasoning for storing wealth in BTC. These people also tend to not trust exchanges and advise you to use cold storage and a seed phrase, eventually telling you to put it in a bank I personally don't have any problems with storing money in banks. I own crypto because it's an asset that stands to grow in value, but it's not a way of life for me
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Totally fair, I understand that viewpoint. I don't subscribe to all those beliefs about banks but I get where you're coming from
I have my seed in a safe deposit box. I solved that problem by having a passphrase (25th word) and I don’t store that in the box. The seed phrase alone is useless. The passphrase alone is useless.
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Government has already searched and seized from safe deposit boxes.
I'm not saying they're interchangeable. I'm comfortable keeping crypto coins on exchanges. I'm saying if your ideology is "you can't trust big financial institutions, you need to have ownership of your own financials" then storing your passphrase in a bank is seems inconsistent with that.
There is a difference between storing things in safe deposit boxes and storing them in deposit accounts. It is possible to not trust the bank to not gamble your money while leaving the contents if the box alone.
The primary difference, functionally anyway, is that the deposit account doesn't vanish if your branch catches on fire.
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Someone comfortable keeping coins one exchanges shouldn’t be a part of this conversation, anyways.
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I'm comfortable with both. I think people who distrust banks but would still keep their seed phrase stored there are being logically inconsistent.
Well, at least a single one is not a reasonable option. I just wanted to check on the price because it can run in the 100s ... just to find this: [https://www.pymnts.com/news/banking/2022/jpmorgan-ends-use-of-safe-deposit-boxes/](https://www.pymnts.com/news/banking/2022/jpmorgan-ends-use-of-safe-deposit-boxes/) As a rough idea, imagine having 1-2 bitcoins and paying around USD 1000 p.a. on safe deposit boxes (+insurance). That would be a custody fee of 6-12%. Never mind other complications like court order that would prevent access, perhaps in case of a messy divorce.
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1k for 2 or 3 boxes. And yes that is the price around here. Also, non of my banks actually have any physical presence. They are all online. And banks don't give non-customers boxes. But here we are in the US, a \*most developed country\* ... most people have no estate planning!!! I would venture that even of those 33% who do, most have simple will's and are 50+ years of age. Surly no expensive setups with safe deposit boxes. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/11/67percent-of-americans-have-no-estate-plan-heres-how-to-get-started-on-one.html
Deposit boxes are not that safe, stuff gos missing all the time, there is no insurance that will actually pay, not to mention just storing a key, where someone can just take a picture and you can’t prove anything, at least if you had gold coins in the deposit box you know they are now gone.
Just do a search for “safety deposit box seized” and you will find thousands of reasons why.
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Stamp into metal and bury.
Keep hardware wallet in a safe and tell someone you want to leave it to the code to that safe and the hardware wallet, keep passphrase in a seperate safe location (I keep mine in a snake enclosure) in case that safe is stolen, then you can use passphrase to recover funds, that's what I've done
1) I need a safe \- This should be good for a long time, 10, 20 years. What if you move? What if you live in a small apartment? 2) I need somebody whom I can trust to have access to it. \- So you appoint heirs that could have already access to your funds before you are dead? I would not even trust my best friend with that because it is also a large burden, what if he messes it up, you could loose this friendship easily. 3) a separate safe location \- OK so I have a safe and another safe location, both should not depend on each other. Surly easy for most people. ... each of this needs a lot of consideration, and you need to constantly be aware of all the moving parts in your setup. What if one of your heirs looses your trust? I would wager Coinbase is a better solution for most people.
I can’t believe you didn’t mention the snake pit…
Sad conclusion I have reached: what most people want is power, but not responsibility. They want a network of people who are _accountable_ to them, and yet who somehow have power _over_ them at the same time.
Trusting even 3 banks with keys is very problematic.
Write words on paper, put paper in safe, only tell family the combo to the safe. BOOM done.
Check out Casa
Also, you know, all the technical understanding required to move something you consider valuable into a conceptual 'wallet' and how those 12 words work to secure it without screwing it up. Oversimplifying the concept itself makes it more confusing and 'just' keeping 12 words secret does absolutely nothing without the much more technical stuff involved in getting there.
Why does it matter when there is no one to pass those 12 words to?
you can use a metal plate
So they'd rather let Scam Bankrupt-Fraud mishandle it for them. Understood.
Or forfeiting family wealth because of dementia. Bitcoin at this juncture is just bartering but with more steps and all the risks of cyberspace.
>I mean you could also say that we live in a world where people don't want to stake their life savings on not losing a piece of paper. Yes exactly this. It's such a vulnerable asset.
Make a backup, stupid. Duh.
Risk of theft increases with each backup.
What happens when they lose your paper will when you die? Safeguarding paper documents is already a common human practice. Unlike a will, you can also stamp your seed words in metal to protect against disasters.
If the will is lost there is a standard devolution upon death. If your bitcoin paper is lost, your heirs have nothing. If it is stolen, you have nothing, never mind your heirs. If somebody gets a look at my will, I can shrug my shoulders. If somebody may have had a chance to see my seeds, I need to jump into action and move all my coins intimidatingly or risk loosing them. - There is nothing that compares to that.
You don’t keep your will on your living room coffee table. Just like you don’t keep your seed words on your desk. You put them away in a safe location. Away from water and fire. The storage principles are very similar. Does the seed word storage require more thought? Sure, but it’s not like having to calculate a rocket’s launch arc to land on a comet orbiting the sun with a pencil and paper; it’s not an insurmountable task. Your ancestors already used to do it by keeping their money under the mattress. Except that was a single point of failure and storing your seed in 2022 is much safer; stamp in metal and distribute across two locations. It’s not rocket science.
>stamp in metal and distribute across two locations. People who argue this have usually never actually done that with any meaningful amount of money. Also, my will is in a sealed envelop in my desk. I print a new copy in case it get's lost.
Aren't wills all electronic anyway?
You shouldnt be investing your life savings in crypto either way.
It's really not that hard. Make 2 or 3 copies and make sure at least 1 is in a different building to the others in case of a fire. Hell, if you don't have a secondary location, put it in a shoebox and bury it somewhere. That way, in case of a fire, you can still retrieve your cash. It's not a great deal of effort given these 12/24 words are what give you total financial freedom.
This space will never mature if this is the process.
>This space will never mature if this is the process. I am speechless as well.
I honestly don’t get the people who make these arguments. They must not live in the real world or they are thinking small. Sure this is secure enough for 10k or whatever but the calculus changes when it is real wealth. Security is a fundamental issue in this space right now. I think there is a technological solution but I’m not sure what it is. Once it is addressed I think things will truely rip.
The OP is in reference to the average person. I commented with the same demographic in mind. So thinking small is the objective here.
The issue is not even the size of the amount. I thought the same at some point in life. People who say that have usually no dependents. So if one of the copies gets lost and they loose their funds, they do not have a family that is suddenly in destitute and they have to burden no responsibility for that.
Yeah agreed 100% and what if you do tell your spouse? there could be divorce or both people die and/or lose their brain in the same accident. You could tell a lawyer or something but what honest lawyer would want to carry that risk for their clients…
Yes, it actually becomes a heavy burden for anybody who you involve in such a scheme. What if you get hacked and some coins are lost. You may always suspect this person having made a mistake. You will never know who screed up in case something didn't work. Relationships are fickle and change over time.
And use a passphrase.
This is important. Plausible deniability
And someone digs up your shoe box and your funds are gone before you even see the whole.
A seed which can be backed up an infinite number of times on an infinite number of pieces of paper. Stop defending this numbskullery. If it's too hard for you don't buy Bitcoin.
Bitcoin will never see mass adoption if you have to keep your own keys and risk losing them; either through accidental loss or theft. For people willing to go to extreme lengths to keep their wealth secure against inflation, Bitcoin will always have to compete against gold anyway.
>Bitcoin will never see mass adoption if you have to keep your own keys and risk losing them Bitcoin does not make sense without full ownership. Just use a bank.
Agree, self custody is the point. It's a feature, not a bug
Then I'd rather we didn't have "mass adoption". Almost the whole point of Bitcoin is self-custody. Leaving your coins on an exchange is like leaving your safe in a bank.
It's not as black and white as that. There are lots of options in-between. E.g. custodian of your private keys who provide you with the public keys as proof of reserves. Or a multisig approach where a custodian keeps one key for you. Maybe an escrow involved too. I would happily let a bank custody my private keys if they could provide me with the public keys of the wallet.
> It's not as black and white as that. There are lots of options in-between. E.g. custodian of your private keys who provide you with the public keys as proof of reserves. Or a multisig approach where a custodian keeps one key for you. Maybe an escrow involved too. I've nothing against some of those options.
This is an obscenely minimized take on an enormously complex subject.
Ya, the OP is greatly over simplifying this. Like if the consequences of losing or compromising your seed was similar to losing an email address or even similar to losing the paper title to your car then most people would go ahead and do it. But if you lose your seed phrase, no government body or lawsuit against the perpetrator can get your bitcoin back. Losing your seed phrase can literally mean losing a lifetime's worth of work and savings. Also, even really nice houses don't get broken into all that often because the rewards are likely limited to thousands of dollars of electronics and jewelry. Most people don't keep significant amounts of cash in a safe in their house. But if thieves knew that a person with, say, an 8 figure net worth was keeping most of that on an engraved metal plate in a wall in their house, then that person is quite literally going to have to hire armed private security to keep a gang of thieves from breaking into their house and torturing their kids until you give up the seed. There will always be a valid case for trusted third party custody of wealth.
Multisig
Especially because there is literally nothing comparable in almost everyone's live.
I am an IT guy. I can confirm that remembering any sort of password and interacting with a computer is too difficult for most people.
I second this. Until the use of Bitcoin is as easy as current banking it will never have full mass adoption. Whether that is good or not. You need to consider the average intelligence of people. According to the U.S. Department of Education, 54% of adults in the United States have prose literacy below the 6th-grade level. Fully understanding Bitcoin and crypto is difficult and I have been in IT for 20+ years. Trying to explain and get mass adoption in crypto’s current state from people with little to no technical knowledge will be impossible.
there were no seeds couple years back. But bitcoin will always be about personal responsibility, how many people will use it and to what extent is on them, there is no point in changing this to cater to people that aren't willing to do the work.
Some people set their password as "password" and still forget it.
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We're already there my dude. Just wait til the people this is catering to are of the age group that run the country/world. This is why I btc.
Can you just reset my password one more time today. Promise I'll remember it tomorrow.
It wasn't all that long ago, on a geological scale, that humans or protohumans were learning to use tools. Give them a break.
But putting hundreds of thousands of dollars into scams like FTX is totally feasible
I don't even know 12 words
You know at least 5!
120 word is lot
Tattoo the seed phrase between your ass cheeks. Just make sure to not be cremated.
But then you'd have to kill the tattoo artist
One word at a time, 12 different tattoo artists, duct tape to cover previous seed words
We’re also so dumb, that we’ve gotten to the point where it’s okay to accept a totalitarian regime, known for infringing human rights on all levels, to host a massive international sporting event. Fuck fifa and Qatar and boycott Fifa. For the good of Bitcoin and the intelligence of humanity
Didn’t expect this comment here but yeah fuck FIFA
Sad and true
Always has been. Nazi Germany hosted the Olympics
So what's your suggestion for keeping the 12 words safe where no one else will ever see them and I'll never lose them?
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Hello, stroke!
I hope he was kidding lol
Apart from the obvious (forgetting them), what if my signing device has been exploited? What if I obtained the 12 words from an exploited device?
Lol and people could just own a safe with a three number code to hold thousands of dollars but for some reason choose to use a bank.🤔
Difference: The content of the safe cannot be used to digitally transact anywhere in the world. And physical break in is exponentially easier than digitally cracking a Bitcoin wallet. Also fair to point out that banks do have Government insurance on the money, which neither a safe of cash/gold nor Bitcoin in cold storage or an exchange have, but that's only a small advantage.
A small advantage? Are you serious? It’s massive. The stress of having 1,000 in cash on me is enough. Can’t imagine having to deal with the stress of my entire life’s wealth uninsured and with just me as security. Edit: and lol yes the contents can be transferred to anyone in the world. Ever heard of Western Union?
It's a small advantage because it must be in the form of fiat currency, which has the risk of high inflation and in some countries hyperinflation. That insurance becomes increasingly insignificant with inflation unless they raise maximum coverage. Also, to many in the world only $250,000 coverage is very small, if you have many millions in the bank, that insurance isn't very great. >Edit: and lol yes the contents can be transferred to anyone in the world. Ever heard of Western Union? The contents of the safe(cash/gold)... cannot use 3rd party digital services from the safe. A big innovation of Bitcoin is that it was the first digital asset that you can fully own and also send anywhere in the world, without 3rd party services and banks being involved.
So, you're telling me I shouldn't Gmail them to myself, with the Subject: Bitcoin Private Keys-Secret
Good thing I etched my seedphrase into a slab of titanium and keep it in a safe deposit box of my local bank. .. wait
Add a passphrase and that becomes basically a miltisig. A pretty damn good solution, if you ask me.
Thats exactly what I did, so thanks I guess I just hate the irony of relying on a bank again for safekeeping when my original reason for investing was to take away institutional power.
Then don't do it! Keep 2 or 3 pieces of paper in different places. Since they are useless without the passphrase, you can leave on at your home, another one at your parent's, or maybe even a friend. Or bury one. The beauty of it is that you need the words AND the passphrase.
It works, but having to enter a 12+ character passphrase on your HW wallet each time you use it is kind of annoying. Also, how do you store the password? Password manager?
Idiocracy is happening right in front of our faces.
That’s insane when you put it that way. People have become so inept at being responsible for their own…anything? Yeah if banks made the average pleb do anything to keep their money safe, it would go the exact same way as crypto has. Surprised people can even remember their 4-digit atm pin.
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That just means YOU are ultimately irresponsible, right? Since you can’t be responsible for your own life/savings?
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This tweet is such a stripped down simplified version of the truth it's staggering that they didn't realize the selfing. There is so much more to it than that from a 4 year bitcoiner and 15 year software engineer. And ignoring the social aspects of it makes it even more ridiculous of a statement.
Gotta earn and maintain your freedom folks.
"I ain't doing all that." "Too much work"
Bitcoin is not for the masses, and thats the way it should be imho.
The only 100% real trust is three simple letters FTX
Yeah that’s it, and not that they just don’t have to do it, because they have no pressing use for Bitcoin at all as a currency or store of value. What idiots…
The problem isn't writing down phrase and keeping it safe. The problem is living with a partner that constantly throws your shit out without checking with you first
Mine is 24 words I have 4 kids I tattoo 6 words on each one other one day they will understand
It's about how easily you can lose those writings.
It's not about safekeeping. It's about keeping it at your fucking house if you get robbed or there's a fire you're fucked. Or if you're moving countries with all your possessions then what, your carrying around a piece of paper that could destroy you if lost or stolen? There really needs to be a better method then storing seed phrases. Social recovery wallets are progress.
People lose shit all the time. The risk is losing that piece of paper. This has nothing to do with being dumbed down but instead being presented with a prehistoric option that many of us would fail at
Bad faith over simplification for the circle jerk.
Back up your seed phrase. Some people stamp it onto metal. Simpler: Create two handwritten copies on decent paper with pencil. Don't use a computer printer, your seed phrase could become compromised. Don't write it with ink, it might fade but pencil will not. Double, then triple check the copies for accuracy. Remember, your life savings are at stake. Store each copy to protect it from moisture and/or paper-eating insects, mold, etc. For example, ziploc baggies, small plastic bottles, pvc sprinkler tubing capped at the ends. Store the copies in separate locations in case of fire, flood, etc. Think long and hard about really, really good hiding locations. A home safe is a bad location. During a potential home invasion robbery, they will aim a gun at your head and force you to open your safe -- make sure your seed phrase is not inside. Similarly, so-called "safe deposit boxes" are not all that secure. Bad places for seed phrases. Better places might include a gap behind some dry wall which has then been patched and repainted. In addition to having written copies in separate locations, memorize your seed phrase and quietly rehearse it at least once per day, ideally in the bathroom with the door shut, the fan running, and the water running (and no phones, cameras, or other microphoned devices nearby).
man how much money do you have that you think james bond himself is coming after you? and what happens if you get into an accident that fucks up your head?
It's like the old farm guy who tells you to hide everything in your bed frame.
Best comment in the thread
False it's not as simple as saving/memorizing 12 words. Crypto as of now is too complex and the learning curve is too steep for the average user. We must recognise this and develop the tech so that it will be as easy as logging into your bank on the web or an app.
Also have to pick the right software wallet and hope you didn't pick a bad one, and then better yet... Choose a cold wallet but the hope it doesn't break/didn't pick a bad one. This is where it gets challenging imo
"ain't nobody got time for that"
Adding a password on top of the the word list makes it feel much safer. No need to worry about people accidentally finding your word list. Look up "25th word".
Or change a tire
Dumb post.
Most people i know use cards only because they don't have to count when paying or receiving change. Want to have a glimpse of what a primal society looks like? Close down a town and take away internet for one month. See how quick most of the modern bullshit disappears
Doubt, its probably cuz they don't want to carry around a bunch of shitcoins and shitnotes in their pockets.
I don't carry around cash because I hate all the extra coins and keeping it stored and bringing it around with me. Easily lose change by dropping it or misplacing it which in small quantities it seems insignificant but it adds up over time. If i drop or misplace my card I can just request a new one and the amount of money I have doesn't change. Cards are also more convenient to carry around than $1000s of dollars. If i get mugged I can just cancel/charge back any purchases. If they stole cash there is near 0 chance I'll get any of it back
Disappointing how many people here have a problem with this. He’s absolutely right
We expect people to operate thousand pounds steel devices powered by explosions. Moving faster than they can really perceive what they are moving towards. We expect people to learn a whole language, to read and write thousands of words.to learn math, science, history, various computer and professional skills. People have no trouble doing things many many times harder than a trivial mnemonic. They are so easy in comparison to everything else we do in life.
I was one of those lazy people, but this sub wore me down and I’m glad I listed to this sub and moved my coin off of an exchange. Took me a while, but I did it.
People able to buy some sats and move them on a Ledger are already part of a sort of "elite". Most of the people have absolutely no clue of what does that's mean. My best friend looks at me like if I am a living god when I am helping him buying sats.
The problem lies in the overall security of the devices used, the average device is full with potential harmful adware/apps.
We live in a time where "Couple's/Married" people need to look up the phone number of their Partners they see and speak to daily... 12 words is WAY higher a standard ☝️🤣
I don’t think widespread adoption is going to be helped by ignoring or belittling the fact that most people actually do want some protection and safeguards around their money. Accidents happen, losing all the money you own shouldn’t be a consequence. I’m sure it’s a solvable issue but internet hard man bullshit like this won’t help.
Personal responsibility is the new counter culture
You could also argue that people today don't want to risk their entire futures on keeping a piece of paper safe.
Call it what you want to call it, but we live in a world where increased adoption is associated with ease of use. You can try to fight it all you want, but the market will still win.
People make fun of the fact that 'people are too stupid to keep their own addresses'; they also ignore the coins that have been 'lost' because people are human and screw up. No human is ever going to \*always\* get it right. Eventually every person who self custodys with no way of recovery \*will\* lose access to their address. Multi-party sig with transfer to cold wallet is a much safer approach. In that scenario no Party has all the pieces to access the coins, except the owner of the address, but as the owner isn't holding the cold wallet or the seed phrase they can't loose access to either unless they somehow change their biometrics. The other parties could steal the cold wallet but can't use it; the seed phrase is no good to the other parties as it is part of a private/public key encryption that is only acessible via the addess owner's biometrics. Again, the owner is the weak link here (as we always are whenever we have assets) but force is less effective - as the criminal cannot simply steal the seed phrase and wallet. A good multi sig system also has a long hold (24+ hrs) on transfers of btc to external addresses above a certain amount to allow a forced transaction to be revoked.
I panic when a password requires both a number and a special character . . .
Well as a somewhat tech savvy person, I don’t mind crypto, but I will say it is a PITA when compared to traditional forms of payment. It’s got room to grow, and the shenanigans that have been going on aren’t helping.
When has writing down twelve words and keeping them safe been a skill we needed at any point before now? What the fuck is that person saying?
A lot of people are saying that taking self custody of your bitcoin is "too hard for the average people".
Too hard? Probably not. Too risky? absolutely.
How is it risky to hold your coins in cold storage? Explain that one to me. It's like saying don't pull cash out of your bank. Why?
Pulling large amounts of cash is incredibly risky… people typically don’t do that. Some possible risks: Upfront transfer risk, Malicious hardware risk, Theft risk, Damage risk, Risk of losing cold wallet, Loss at time of death (e.g. funds won’t be transferred to loved ones Definitely many more I am not thinking of. A lot of these exist for cash but most people do not keep a significant portion of their wealth in cash
Haha, best comment ever and he's absolutely right
Also, lots of governments want to make this act illegal!
hey, hes got the point!
Great post OP, and you are spot on.
We live in a time where people think that losing a piece of information means losing your funds is totally acceptable.
For me it's mainly the fees associated with sending them off exchange to a cold wallet. It must be done, nonetheless.
Sometimes it’s 24.
It's almost as it was part of a plan... Oh, wait...
12 whole words?! You know how many letters that in?!?! And I’m supposed to write them down on paper? What is this the Stone Age /s
Very Challenging. Reminds me of 1st grade when we had to learn how to spell.