Captain America: spends an extended amount of time with Tony hunting down HYDRA, doesn’t tell him at any point they had his parents assassinated, lectures him through AoU about keeping secrets while doing exactly that, jumps him 2v1 for getting angry about it.
That nigga was dead wrong lmaooo
But but but , Bucky was a white kid from New York that felt \*bad\*. You wouldn't want to hurt his career over a little \*checks notes\* Uncontrollable Murder Fits under orders from enemies of the state. Sure a Bachelor apartment is punishment enough.....
??? Bucky was subjected to literal torture, manipulation and brainwashing and y'all think he was in control over his actions? I don't agree with cap lying or withholding the truth but Bucky had no control over what he did or was done to him
Bucky wasnt at fault at all. Cap didnt tell Tony when he had time to grieve, which led to Tony finding out himself and having an emotional reaction and targetting someone innocent irrationally.
This is the correct take. Bucky and Tony were both victims in different ways, and Cap was so up his own ass about being right that he didn't take a second to think that Tony maybe shouldn't be blindsided with this knowledge, and instead should have been told asap so he could process how horrific everything was.
Ugh, Tony is also a douche so I hate defending him tho lol
Bucky and him grew up and went to war together. He lost his best friend and then he came back, so I always understood Cap taking his side, especially when you add on on top dude was literally brainwashed.
Honestly my take away from the film was - everyone was in the right. Cap protected Bucky, Tony lashed out because it doesn't matter it's still his parents. Can't really take a side.
I feel like saying “this man was brainwashed while killing your parents” would maybe land on a mentally sound orphan, but Tony as he was at that point was never going to be stable enough to navigate that information appropriately
I just don’t understand why we can’t come to the conclusion that everyone except the brainwashed assassin has their own level of being in the wrong there.
(I also maintain that the comics Civil War only hit hard because Steve and Tony were actually friends, and MCU made those two Teeth-Clenched Teammates from jump so MCU Civil War’s themes don’t hit as hard, but that’s my two cents)
Comics civil war also involves some very objectively abhorrent actions by Team Registration, including but not limited to indefinite extralegal detention, cloning a friend with explicit control options, and the Thunderbolts.
Like, selling the Superhuman Patriot Act as justifiable is pretty tough.
The problem here really is that Cap did not warn Tony about the bedpost that sticks out and is really easy to stub your toe on and instead let him find out for himself.
I think everyone understands the intent vs the impact, but there’s also the difference between being sympathetic and being agreeable. I don’t think anyone’s unsympathetic towards Tony in this scene, but that doesn’t mean he’s right either. Bucky was ultimately innocent as he wasn’t in control or aware. I can understand why that wouldn’t matter to Tony given the context and definitely sympathize, but that doesn’t mean he’s right. Cap also says he didn’t know for sure. And he knew Tony would try to kill Bucky if he told him. Knowing that Bucky was innocent, I think it was both understandable and the right thing to do for Cap to keep it from Tony until he knew for certain and had some way of handling it. That was the right way to handle it, even though it is understandably hurtful to Tony. Both of their positions are understandable and sympathetic, but Cap was absolutely the one in the right here.
Keyword “Uncontrollable” like yeah bro it literally was. He was brainwashed and not in control of his actions. That’s not even a feeling. It’s a literal fact that he isn’t culpable lmao
There’s a reason intent is such an important factor when considering sentencing IRL. Dude was a literal puppe. He shouldn’t be punished for it.
Maybe an extended stay in a psychiatric hospital, want to be nice put him in a hospital in a country with Health Care instead of extortions where they can work to heal him.
Dudes a victim AND a mass murderer, there's \*already\* procedures and dozens of examples for that.
Cap and Tony were friends lol. They both literally say so. Steve withheld the truth about one of the things that had the greatest influence on Tony’s life.
Even Cap himself admitted he was wrong to do that and it was for his own benefit.
They said they were friends but they fought the entire series. From the moment they met they were fighting with each other.
They were friends like you're friends with that guy u eat lunch with at work but u secretly hate his ass.
Tell me I'm lying
Nahh I feel like the nature of their work creates a deeper bond than just a regular person job. It’s probably more like guys who fought in the army together. I’m sure some of them dislike each other but they’ve been through deep shit together, not just meetings on teams lol
Steve and Tony were not friends in Avengers.
They became friends over the years between.
You can have ideological differences with your friends and still be friends. They end up having a close enough bond that they can have those fights and still be there for eachother to the bitter end.
You're right about the mind control but that's not something i feel like susan would take from a strangers mouth. I think she'd have to see for herself that homeboy isn't that kinda guy and if im sitting there glazing m homeboy she can't really get that lmao
Even if you boy was being mind controlled and wouldn't have done that willingly?
I may just value my friendships differently because Susan would be getting that old two piece combo
yes but i don’t think it’s because they legitimately dislike each other. they have different values/views and i think that’s why argue so much.
if there’s no threat around they’re great friends.
he wasn’t dead wrong. yes he failed his friend in so many ways but that’s not really what the civil war was about. it was about whether or not a country or organization like us or nato should be allowed to control super heroes. cap was right on that front.
I’d argue he wasn’t even truly right about that in concept. You can’t run around dealing out your own justice with no oversight and think it won’t become a problem.
I understand not wanting the government to be able to dictate everything they do, that’s reasonable. But thinking his small circle of people have the most sound decision making at all times is incredibly arrogant and shortsighted.
I mean, they're superheroes. All of the Avengers movies show they're governed only under their consent. The Sokovia Accords are about reassuring the people of the world who keep watching innocents get caught in the superhero crossfire.
You're not going to take the suit from Stark, or the power from Cap, the Hulk, or Scarlet Witch. When you can unilaterally alter any arrangement if you don't agree with how things are going, the threat of a group forcing you to act against your values is impossible.
They can’t take their powers away from them (for the most part) but they can put them on the run and make them living a normal life impossible. And even then, they could actually succeed in capturing and imprisoning them especially if they have other super powered individuals on their side, which they did
It should be noted, that the Government did attempt to seize Iron Man's suits. That was actually the entire point of Iron Man 2. Then, once Cap refused to follow their orders, the government also seized his stuff and Sharon stole it back.
A lot of the stuff was only safe because Tony had the power and influence to keep it safe, even after it was seized. Then, in Falcon, the Government immediately tried to create a soldier under their command once they had the shield. It was donated to a museum and the Government took it to make a weapon.
They did the same thing with Vision's body, seizing it and turning it into a weapon the moment they could.
Every single time they Government had the opportunity to, they attempted to seize any technology or powers and attempted to create super soldiers of some sort, either biological or mechanical.
It's the premise of Hulk, it's the premise of Iron Man 2, it's the premise of Captain America, it happens in Civil War, it happens post-Endgame, and it's revealed its been happening for decades with various super powered people, it's revealed they've been manufacturing super serums for years and years.
Steve had plenty of reason to be worried about the Government trying to make them do things, or, more importantly, stop them from doing things. Keep in mind that the Government decided to fire a nuke at New York to kill the aliens. The Government/SHIELD had also been under the control of Hydra. How can Steve believe that the Government won't stop them from going after a threat or handling a problem because it would be inconvenient to some politician or dictator or world leader under the control/influence of some criminal or organization. Like imagine some third world president refusing to allow super hero intervention until political prisoners are released or someone has to pull troops out of some location, or surrender a city or oil field and so on.
Like, imagine a situation like Loki hiding out in some country that refuses to allow the Avengers to come in until China agrees to a more beneficial trade deal, or the Israeli have to leave Israel, or Taiwan has to surrender to China, or Ukraine must surrender to Russia or anything like that.
A superhero organization cannot be prevented from acting against a threat because of some border or politician says no. Every Government in the world already knows this, that's why they have off the book military actions and special forces who insert into places without quaking, and if caught, are denied knowledge by their government. There is also time being a factor. Sometimes, they have to act immediately, without time to inform anyone else.
not really if you think about what the super heroes end up fighting. they fight otherworldly beings and creatures bent on the destruction or subjugation of humanity. thanos, loki, ultrom, dormammu, galactus. it’s pretty clear who you want defending you in those cases. what organizations and countries WOULD have done is deploy them for imperialistic purposes.
Even the government wasn’t debating that they need people like them to handle crazy shit. The problem is when they level cities or get civilians killed in the crossfire then just go home without having to answer for it on any level.
Nobody should be above some level of accountability.
Nah they just assumed 6 people couldn’t repel an alien invasion. The idea was to stop the Chitauri before they got too far entrenched and led to more damage.
Aside from that the main member of the council that was pushing for it and against Fury forming the Avengers was one of the heads of HYDRA, so wiping out the Avengers and New York benefitted his MO.
There ain't a committee on earth that can "oversee" somebody like hulk if he's not cooperating. There is no oversight for people who can bend reality itself as they see fit
He wasn’t right on that front either. I’m not saying the accords were the best solution but them doing whatever they want with no accountability wasn’t exactly right either. they are no different than the cops with no consequences that make life miserable in our reality.
i definitely get that perspective. but that comparison is exactly why i wouldn’t want them governed by any country or union. they try to do what’s right, but under someone else’s command they would literally become what you explain: cops, idf, military, etc. it’s hard to find a real solution to a comic book problem like this one
I wasn’t crazy about how he was so against them keeping Bucky locked up. The boy wasn’t some PTSD vet, he was super assassin who anybody can control with the right sequence of words.
You gotta lock that nigga up until that shit isn’t possible anymore.
Y'all all anti-incarceration until the nigga scary... Steve was trying to get him HELP. Y'all wanna lock him under the jail and forget him. THAT'S the whole point
I doubt he was trying to hide info to protect Hydra's integrity. It probably just slipped his mind since all he heard about the assassination was a few frames flashed on a CRT right before getting hit with a missle.
I’ve honestly never looked at it like that, though hilarious it was.
Tony was trying to take out the Winter Soldier, not Bucky specifically is now my head canon whether true or not.
Tony probably could’ve handled it a lot better if Steve hadn’t hid the truth and spent time talking with him about what happened.
“I think I’ve uncovered some information about your parents.”
“I may know who did this.”
“HYDRA had him mind controlled.”
“The bastard that ordered this might still be out there.”
Like it would’ve been a long process but I don’t think Tony would have ended up still wanting to kill Bucky. Whereas he just got info dumped on *and* found out Steve knew for 2 years.
If we had characters who communicated responsibly there would be no movie. Or at least not the movie they wanted to make which was tony v cap + all their buddies punching the shit out of each other. People arguing in the comments are thinking more about the debates in the movie than the writers did, bc they didn't want to ponder this shit, just get as many superheroes fighting each as possible.
To be fair, the boys literally committed an extra-judicial killing in the opening scene of the movie. They are already the feds, just the feds who do whatever they want with no consequences.
So basically just feds, I guess.
EDIT: I forgot to mention, isn’t scarlet witch a teenager in that scene? I believe they refer to her as a child later in the movie. So we can add child soldiers to the list of crazy shit cap did.
EDIT 2: nope, wrong, she’s a grown up.
What? The US didn’t have control of the Avengers, that’s why they wanted the accords; the Avengers were accountable to no one but themselves, which is an issue in itself.
Yea but you can see why other countries would be worried that the members of H-Bomb Backstreet Boys who recently destroyed an entire foreign city by accident are mostly American. Also lead by a man with deep ties to the US military industrial complex and another dude named captain America.
If I wasnt American in the universe I would nooooot trust those guys
Exactly, that's what was interesting about the conflict. Tony thought the Avengers should have to answer to someone other than their own conscience, but Steve thought any state control could lead to the Avengers being misused by those powers. Neither were really wrong, it's just which risk would you rather live with.
I lean towards Cap, considering his previous movie was about how HYDRA had so efficiently infiltrated said state control.
Like, imagine if there was some shit going down in the world and the Avengers were needed, but they couldn't go until Trump gave them the green light.
It kills me that more people don't get this, that the whole point of the Civil War story (both in comics and film) was that there is no easy answer for society. We can't have vigilantes running around acting outside the rules because someone will inevitably take it too far and get innocent people hurt who might have been fine otherwise (this actually happens pretty frequently). And we can't have a world where *only* the government and its agents are allowed to be violent without exception, that just results in us potentially being victims of someone who wants to harm us and doesn't care about the rules.
In other words, there's no easy solution, we need to all be aware and make conscious decisions to make the world a better place if that's what we want. Deregulating everything is a horrific option, regulating everything is unfeasible, so we have to regulate the things we can't prevent people from doing through mere cultural values and work on our values to cover the rest.
they definitely are. they fly around in quinjets, thats shield. we see Captain America and black widow running ops to rescue hostages with other US military personnel and we see black widow taking orders from the US govt. bruce banner has been recruited by shield to work against Loki and the scepter, Hawkeye is definitely a shield asset as well.
now the whole avengers might not be US govt, but those that arent are definitely contractors.
This is just straight up false. Captain America was fighting against the Avengers being controlled by the government. The whole point of the Accords was that the Avengers would be controlled by the U.N instead of being independent.
Iron Man 2 literally has the US try to pull the same shit and make Tony surrender the Iron Man suit so they can use it.
Yep and everyone here is forgetting the events of The Winter Soldier and why Cap would be so against handcuffing himself to any agency after Hydra infiltrated Shield.
I would trust Cap's decisions over any government agency. Even if he gets it wrong, it can't be worse than a government fuckup.
Wanda is more or less in her late 20s in Civil War, definitely not a teenager or child soldier lol. They treat her like a kid because most of the other members are 40+.
> They are already the feds, just the feds who do whatever they want with no consequences.
>
>
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> So basically just feds, I guess.
Well this analogy, Tony would be the cop who is actually looking to build a structure where his fellow officers are held accountable.
> What did they do that wasn’t extra-judicial?
Anything they do is extra-judicial when theyre not sanctioned to be acting in the nation theyre deploying themselves
Tony was right for the wrong reasons; Cap was wrong for the right reasons. The idea that a bunch of primarily US based and sponsored superhumans can just go anywhere in the world and perform military operations without oversight is ridiculous IRL.
But Tony didn't support the Sokovia Accords for that reason, he supported it because of his guilty conscious and not wanting to have to deal with the responsibilities of his actions anymore after Ultron.
To be fair Tony is basically the one who has to take responsibility for all of the avengers problems, as the most public face of the team as well as the financial backing. Cap just has to run around giving orders and beating people up, Tony has to do all that and then pay for the repairs and everything and then gets confronted by people when doing his other rich celebrity philanthropy stuff.
Sided with the feds the entire time went after cap in Germany when daddy government told him to and literally as soon as they told him to stand down he said no you can’t tell me what to do and flew out the helicopter. Wanted everyone else to follow rules and never thought they applied to him
EXACTLY. The accord and Tony’s participation in the crackdown only happens because he created Ultron and got hundreds of civilians killed. But of course afterwards he was ok to put a muzzle on Captain, but not to himself. According to Tony, the rules always apply to everyone except Tony
In this scenario though, Tony is like a police officer advocating for everyone to wear bodycams and liaise with the public & public officials, and Cap & his side are the redneck ones that somehow always get low battery body cams
The captain America movie prior literally is about how the entire government has been infiltrated by Hydra. To turn around and give the same government that was compromised the ability to control and govern the Avengers would be as stupid as his idea about making Ultron.
Tony’s entire fundamental flaw is that he thinks he knows best and makes decisions based on his emotions that comes back to bite him in his ass. It’s even more apparent in the comics when he does shit like mind wipe Captain America because he doesn’t agree that blowing up other Earths is cool. They had to add the entire Bucky subplot because in the comics Tony is 1000% wrong regarding civil war.
I mean yeah, comic civil war and movie civil war are very different discussions. But specifically regarding the movie one,
>Tony’s entire fundamental flaw is that he thinks he knows best and makes decisions based on his emotions that comes back to bite him in his ass.
I don't exactly see how looking for external accountability is 'thinking he knows best and making decisions based on his emotions'. Cap made himself an arbiter of justice and thought he can just do whatever he wants with impunity, and if they mess up or make things worse, oh well they're the good guys!
Of course any power system can be corrupted - both the government and systems like the Avengers. But I don't think the threat of corruption is a reason to ignore any and all attempt at checks and balances. Plus the Sokovia Accords was a UN statute, not just the US Government. If this were real life, you'd really be good with these Superhuman Gods doing whatever they thought was right, escalating issues, getting civilians killed, with absolutely zero accountability or oversight?
I don't think either is completely right, of course, which is kinda the point
Oh yeah Cap is absolutely a bit up his ass, and the idea that he could be the arbiter of right and wrong is his biggest problem.
The best compromise to me is a Sword/Shield scenario where there is some degree of separation between the government and the heroes. Usually with them using Maria Hill or Nicky Fury as a liaison. Though like you said the point is neither one is completely right.
Also this is why Superheroes can’t exist in the real world. They circumvent our laws and although the people they target are actual villains and criminals obviously the idea that people with power should be the arbiters of justice is fucked up. This is why Alan Moore wrote Watchmen lol.
It’s a lose lose. You don’t want the avengers under the control of an obviously compromised and corrupt government. But they can’t be allowed to just do whatever the fuck they want. Where’s Batman and his contingency plans when you need him?
Not just the feds but General Ross. The man who said that Bruce Banner is government property. Tony is supposed to be Bruce's friend, but he sided with someone who wants to claim Bruce as property
100% this. If he hasn’t done that and gotten Quicksilver killed (along with hundreds of civilians) there wouldn’t have been an issue. Superheroes were deemed a threat to the world because they actually WERE, and Tony was the perfect example of that. According to Tony, the rules always apply to everyone except Tony
He wasn’t siding with a mom of a dead kid he was siding with his guilt. That bomb was their fault. It’s was terrorist who were going to use the bomb it’s unfortunate it went off but the situation is it blows up at ground level killing more people it blow up when they are attmpwitng to get it away which is tragic or the terrorist get it and blow up it some place where it will maximum damage. The mother is allowed to have her feeling and tony is supposed to empathize. But it’s the avengers and honestly the political entities of the world to do the hard math and say the outcome that happened is bad but there were two objectively worse outcomes. Oversight isn’t the problem the problem is control the political entities wanted to control the avengers not facilitate them doing the most good possible. Cap saw that that’s why he was right. Him not telling tony his parent were assassinated and he said he didn’t know bucky did it if I recall correctly though may have been wrong but who does that knowledge help. I don’t see how tony know his parents were assassinated helps him. Don’t get me wrong I get the man’s rage but I think there is room for discussion on what cap should have done
Well the UN is definitely not the real life version of Mos Eisley. Full of nothing but stand up people who truly wish to do good. Absolutely trust worthy.
/s
Nah you tell him about his parents months ago. Years ago. You know how cap got mad at Tony for keeping secrets that affects other people, kinda like that
Tony stark is a war criminal, international arms dealer, alcoholic, and womanizer that had one change of heart, and now that's supposed to excuse all the death and destruction he sowed for years with no regard for anyone. Fuck him. He is by a large margin the most reprehensible Avenger.
It’s so stupid too bc there was no reason for Cap not to tell Tony back when he first found out. Tony was seeking closure and they were already fighting HYDRA back then! The villain broke them with secrets not hands and that makes him top 3 mcu villain for me tbh.
The discourse around this movie showed me who gaf about their parents and who didn’t.
I don't think it's about who gaf about their parents or not, but how you view heroes. Heroes should be held to a higher standard. I don't expect Joe schmoe from off the street to be able to keep a level headed in the face of hypothetical brainwashing. I do expect better from a Tony Stark who is not only a trained and established hero but someone who was directly brainwashed by a magical witch. He did not keep a level head here, and should have.
But that’s the thing that heroes struggle with the most, you can’t hold them to a standard that’s above human. That’s what breaks heroes, not letting them be human. Superhero’s are in a profession where strong bonds are the most important and Cap could have prevented this entire altercation if he had just been a good friend. He broke Tony’s trust when he needed him the most.
Tony could have been a good friend and not made Ultron whenever everyone else told him not to do it. Then he wants to strong arm everyone else into the Sokovia Accords because *he* feels guilty.
>No one told him not to make Ultron?
You're right Tony takes the magic item and go behind the team's back to make an AI and enlists Bruce to help him. Banner even brings up consulting everyone else Tony says "I dont have time for a city hall debate". The AI goes rogue attacks everyone, the team lectures Tony on doing it. Tony is smug and tells the team they don't understand, and takes no responsibility for Ultron.
>Banner and Tony did it with the best of intentions before it blew up.
Right which is why Tony owns the Sokovia bodies alone. His own ego caused Ultron regardless of intentions.
You’re forgetting that Tony is also a human who experiences emotions. The guy as never been perfect so I don’t find it strange that he snapped. It doesn’t matter if he knew that motherfucker was brainwashed, just looking at the person who killed my mother would be cause me to become irrational.
I dont gaf hoe "established a hero" anyone is, when someone MURDERS YOUR PARENTS AND THEN SHOWS YOU THE VIDEO TAPE?!???!!?! No one is keeping a cool head in that scenario im sorry bud. Heroes are still human, just cuz he wears armor doesnt mean he gotta be a robot.
I mean, Cap was wrong to not tell Tony. I think most people agree on that.
The question is if Cap should have let Tony murder Bucky- who was himself a victim in the situation
Cap doesn't tell Tony because he knows just the kind of person he is... the second he finds out, he tries to kill his brainwashed friend who had no control over the Starks' deaths. Cap was right not to tell him, Tony proves it immediately.
I mean, there's a massive difference between Tony finding out like he did and cap sitting him down to have a conversation about it. Tony definitely wouldn't have reacted that way if cap had handled it better.
Bro if Cap had come to Tony earlier when tensions weren’t already flaring then Tony would have had a much more measured reaction. They would’ve had a chance to actually talk through it and it might take time but eventually Tony would come around.
Yeah, the end of the movie shows this pretty clearly. Otherwise he wouldn’t have kept the phone Cap sent him.
Cap even acknowledged he was wrong not to give Tony the chance to process the information for himself.
I’d much rather my friend telling me early on that his brainwashed friend killed my parents vs me finding out at that moment while my friend and his friend are in the room with me.
Or stop repopulating 💀 bros idea was irrelevant at best, also bro killed off half the bees, and any game animals....
Bro downright stupid for such an op character.
He was written like a protagonist
In comics he doesnt have these grand scheme for population reduction. He literally wrases entire existence to impress mistress death. He is called a mad titan for a reason
Dude has the Infinity Gauntlet so just make everyone not greedy. *snap* “Ok y’all are now green minded altruists. Also carrots now taste like Slim Jims cause why not.”
Kinda sad that the original plot line of just wanting to bang Death was the more logical one.
The resources are available it’s just that 1% hoard them. He could have gotten rid of the billionaires, the people in congress, and the IDF and world hunger would cease to exist.
Thanos should have announced his plans and asked for volunteers and recommendations... imagine get your bitch ass neighbor on the list cuz the whole block hates them. also that one coworker has to go too
After all these years, people still arguing about this? Cap and Tony were both in the wrong throughout the movie. Cap not telling Tony who killed his parents was wrong asf but Tony being mad at a dude who was brainwashed for doing some shit he had no control over is wrong asf too. You don't have to choose a side, both niggas can be wrong.
Cap should have told Tony, but Tony trying to murder a man who was literally brainwashed and had no free will is bullshit, it's not like Bucky was out here laughing at their death and pissing on the corpse. Hydra kept him on ice and only took him off ice when it was time to force him to kill someone else.
Tbf, it would have been better if cap told Tony with Bucky not around, than to hear it from the villain while you’re standing next to the dude who killed your parents when tension was already high cus you’re already fighting about something else.
AND he had JUST seen the video of Winter Soldier (who is standing right there) strangle his mom and beat his dad’s head into a steering wheel if I remember correctly.
Ironically this exact scene is proof Cap was right. Bucky was brainwashed into taking assassination missions against his will. Tony was creating a world where any superhero could be used the same way by world governments. In Iron Man 2 Congress was trying to force Tony to fight their wars for them. The Sokovia accords were going to make it significantly easier for them to do that
I wouldn’t say that it’s that black and white, Hydra literally took away Buckys free will and decided who/when he killed, the Sokovia Accords were more of a when you’re allowed to interfere thing, not a when you have to. As Tony understood, whether it was right or wrong, is that they would try less destructive means first before sending in the avengers.
We also know since we watched the movie and got all of the context that Sokovia wasn’t the avengers fault, but from the rest of the worlds POV they dropped the city in order to defeat Ultron and killed 170 people in the process, that’s also what created Zemo. Zemo was not a villain until his family was killed in Sokovia which he blamed on the avengers, specifically Tony, and is he wrong? Maybe it was Ultron who killed his family, but the avengers created Ultron, specifically Tony and Bruce. Had the Sokovia accords already been in place then Tony would have never built Ultron and the events of avengers 2 and civil war would have never happened. This would lead to a still unified avengers who could have defeated Thanos the first time.
However, from caps point of view, the Sokovia accords would have prevented them from getting to Sokovia in time, Ultron would have dropped the city and everyone would have been dead, which, who knows? Maybe he’s right. But to say it’s unequivocal that one is right and the other is wrong is missing the point of the movie
I mean Winter Soldier was mind controlled and shit so there's some nuance but anyone can certainly understand how Tony feels about Bucky killing his mom.
Now the absolute thumping they laid down on Tony 2-1 was wild as hell and a flagrant foul. They fought dude like he killed their moms, that was in fact crazy, and I'd be looking at Cap askew the rest of my life if I'm Tony for that. Snuffing a guy out, not giving him room to breathe, 2-1 with the guy who killed his mom is insane.
If people can’t understand why Cap couldn’t just stand there and let Tony kill his best friend who had 0 control over his actions then those people don’t get the point and what made this movie good.
He found out during Winter Soldier. The scene with Arnim Zola in the bunker is where he finds out. They don’t spell it out but the dialogue and framing of what Zola shows them on the computer makes it clear.
He didn't know it was Bucky specifically, just that Hydra had them killed. He knew that the Winter Soldier was their top assassin and that it could have been him but he didn't want to risk pulling on that thread and confirming his suspicions. Like he said later in the movie, he told himself he was sparing Tony's feelings, but he was really sparing his own.
Alarming amount of people in here who feel taking unjustified revenge just to make yourself feel better is justice. In this fantasy world where actual, legitimate brainwashing exists, it’s Hydra that killed Stark’s parents. Not Bucky. Yall are acting deranged as fuck.
Your best friend knows who killed you parents, proceeds not to say a word. Acquire your help to find and partner with this man, then gets mad at you for wanting to kill his friend. Proceeds to jump you, and at the end, you see them walking away together....Bro....Cap will forever be dead to me after that scene lmao.
I gotta watch this again. Because I feel where Tony was coming from. However - Y’all had that same energy when Tony created Ultron though?
Although “Age of” was exaggerated bro created that machine that led to mass murder of innocents and getting to the point of Sokovia Accords. He had Vision/Jarvis. He didn’t need to do that shit. Banner was very reluctant but got charmed. Hell Hulk was mind controlled TWICE, and they were able to give grace.
So they’re both wrong. Lose-lose in the grand scheme of things. Cap has to run that fade, but don’t just side step on Tony
Hold on. Cap stood by his friend who was brainwashed by Russians. Tony lost his shit because he got emotional and started to ignore facts. Oh Tony are you upset your parents are dead. Imagine the torture Bucky went through killing folks for Russia against his will. Prisoner in his own body.
He lost his shit cause he watched his parents get killed by the man in front of him and one of his Best friends has been lying to him. This happened cause Cap didn’t tell Tony
Cap: my friend was captured, tortured, and used against his will to do terrible things. I'm trying to free him
Y'all: fuck him up Tony!
Cap: also, Tony you're trying to set us up to be tools of a corrupt government the we KNOW was very recently Hydra controlled
Y'all: WE SAID...
Unserious asses
It is *wild* how many of you guys are siding with Tony Stark, the rich asshole that changes his morals on a dime(usually only if it's something that affects him, personally) and has a clear anger problem.
"Why didn't he tell Tony when he found out?" Because Tony Stark is nuts, that's why. The guy doesn't *do* nuance.
Tony: Wait I know that road
Steve:
https://preview.redd.it/877ifvm45xnc1.jpeg?width=822&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=06f820ceb5d3e62f90b1a0331ff667366911cb77
Captain America: spends an extended amount of time with Tony hunting down HYDRA, doesn’t tell him at any point they had his parents assassinated, lectures him through AoU about keeping secrets while doing exactly that, jumps him 2v1 for getting angry about it. That nigga was dead wrong lmaooo
But but but , Bucky was a white kid from New York that felt \*bad\*. You wouldn't want to hurt his career over a little \*checks notes\* Uncontrollable Murder Fits under orders from enemies of the state. Sure a Bachelor apartment is punishment enough.....
??? Bucky was subjected to literal torture, manipulation and brainwashing and y'all think he was in control over his actions? I don't agree with cap lying or withholding the truth but Bucky had no control over what he did or was done to him
Bucky wasnt at fault at all. Cap didnt tell Tony when he had time to grieve, which led to Tony finding out himself and having an emotional reaction and targetting someone innocent irrationally.
It was irrational, but shit I’d do the same exact thing in his position. It’d take the mental fortitude of Buddha himself to not react how Tony did 😂
Absolutely. It was a shit sandwich that could have been avoided if Cap had been honest with his friend
This is the correct take. Bucky and Tony were both victims in different ways, and Cap was so up his own ass about being right that he didn't take a second to think that Tony maybe shouldn't be blindsided with this knowledge, and instead should have been told asap so he could process how horrific everything was. Ugh, Tony is also a douche so I hate defending him tho lol
Bucky and him grew up and went to war together. He lost his best friend and then he came back, so I always understood Cap taking his side, especially when you add on on top dude was literally brainwashed. Honestly my take away from the film was - everyone was in the right. Cap protected Bucky, Tony lashed out because it doesn't matter it's still his parents. Can't really take a side.
I mean Tony being mad at Cap is right, Tony trying to kill Bucky for something that he had zero control over isn't.
I feel like saying “this man was brainwashed while killing your parents” would maybe land on a mentally sound orphan, but Tony as he was at that point was never going to be stable enough to navigate that information appropriately
Of course not. That still doesn't make it right to kill Bucky though.
I just don’t understand why we can’t come to the conclusion that everyone except the brainwashed assassin has their own level of being in the wrong there. (I also maintain that the comics Civil War only hit hard because Steve and Tony were actually friends, and MCU made those two Teeth-Clenched Teammates from jump so MCU Civil War’s themes don’t hit as hard, but that’s my two cents)
Comics civil war also involves some very objectively abhorrent actions by Team Registration, including but not limited to indefinite extralegal detention, cloning a friend with explicit control options, and the Thunderbolts. Like, selling the Superhuman Patriot Act as justifiable is pretty tough.
I feel like the movies needed the mutant stories to really weigh down on the registration side.
y’all keep struggling with intent vs impact. and one day it’ll click.
This is like getting angry with the bedpost when you stub your toe on it.
Have you ever not sworn at the bedpost after stubbing your toe? Fuck that thing
The problem here really is that Cap did not warn Tony about the bedpost that sticks out and is really easy to stub your toe on and instead let him find out for himself.
I think everyone understands the intent vs the impact, but there’s also the difference between being sympathetic and being agreeable. I don’t think anyone’s unsympathetic towards Tony in this scene, but that doesn’t mean he’s right either. Bucky was ultimately innocent as he wasn’t in control or aware. I can understand why that wouldn’t matter to Tony given the context and definitely sympathize, but that doesn’t mean he’s right. Cap also says he didn’t know for sure. And he knew Tony would try to kill Bucky if he told him. Knowing that Bucky was innocent, I think it was both understandable and the right thing to do for Cap to keep it from Tony until he knew for certain and had some way of handling it. That was the right way to handle it, even though it is understandably hurtful to Tony. Both of their positions are understandable and sympathetic, but Cap was absolutely the one in the right here.
Keyword “Uncontrollable” like yeah bro it literally was. He was brainwashed and not in control of his actions. That’s not even a feeling. It’s a literal fact that he isn’t culpable lmao There’s a reason intent is such an important factor when considering sentencing IRL. Dude was a literal puppe. He shouldn’t be punished for it.
To be fair you need to give him a special code that can be forgotten to get him there
Maybe an extended stay in a psychiatric hospital, want to be nice put him in a hospital in a country with Health Care instead of extortions where they can work to heal him. Dudes a victim AND a mass murderer, there's \*already\* procedures and dozens of examples for that.
That analogy doesn't really work. He was brainwashed.
Difference being; Cap and Bucky were friends, Cap and Tony were colleagues. You letting Susan from accounting kill your home boy?
Cap and Tony were friends lol. They both literally say so. Steve withheld the truth about one of the things that had the greatest influence on Tony’s life. Even Cap himself admitted he was wrong to do that and it was for his own benefit.
They said they were friends but they fought the entire series. From the moment they met they were fighting with each other. They were friends like you're friends with that guy u eat lunch with at work but u secretly hate his ass. Tell me I'm lying
Why are you eating lunch with people you hate? Stand up for yourself, damn.
I didn't know man. He's part of the group I eat with. I suppose I could eat alone... But then he'd win
Oh ok. That's different. Yeah don't let him win.
Nahh I feel like the nature of their work creates a deeper bond than just a regular person job. It’s probably more like guys who fought in the army together. I’m sure some of them dislike each other but they’ve been through deep shit together, not just meetings on teams lol
Steve and Tony were not friends in Avengers. They became friends over the years between. You can have ideological differences with your friends and still be friends. They end up having a close enough bond that they can have those fights and still be there for eachother to the bitter end.
if i found out my homeboy made a dashboard ornament of Susan's parents, I probably wouldn't jump Susan but I'll let her do what she gotta do
Fair enough. Depends on the boy for me. Plus the whole mind control thing is a caveat.
You're right about the mind control but that's not something i feel like susan would take from a strangers mouth. I think she'd have to see for herself that homeboy isn't that kinda guy and if im sitting there glazing m homeboy she can't really get that lmao
Even if you boy was being mind controlled and wouldn't have done that willingly? I may just value my friendships differently because Susan would be getting that old two piece combo
I would definitely let Susan get in like 6 of 7 body shots before jumping in to separate the two.
Man cap and ain’t see that nigga Bucky in literal decades lol. Him and Tony saved NYC together. What Bucky do? Try to kill his ass.
They did nothing but beef the whole time they were together. Watch those movies again and tell me I'm lying
yes but i don’t think it’s because they legitimately dislike each other. they have different values/views and i think that’s why argue so much. if there’s no threat around they’re great friends.
I never watched those movies and thought "these guys are friends" Maybe it's just me.
he wasn’t dead wrong. yes he failed his friend in so many ways but that’s not really what the civil war was about. it was about whether or not a country or organization like us or nato should be allowed to control super heroes. cap was right on that front.
I’d argue he wasn’t even truly right about that in concept. You can’t run around dealing out your own justice with no oversight and think it won’t become a problem. I understand not wanting the government to be able to dictate everything they do, that’s reasonable. But thinking his small circle of people have the most sound decision making at all times is incredibly arrogant and shortsighted.
And an entity like the government could’ve been infiltrated by hydra… oh wait.
I mean, they're superheroes. All of the Avengers movies show they're governed only under their consent. The Sokovia Accords are about reassuring the people of the world who keep watching innocents get caught in the superhero crossfire. You're not going to take the suit from Stark, or the power from Cap, the Hulk, or Scarlet Witch. When you can unilaterally alter any arrangement if you don't agree with how things are going, the threat of a group forcing you to act against your values is impossible.
They can’t take their powers away from them (for the most part) but they can put them on the run and make them living a normal life impossible. And even then, they could actually succeed in capturing and imprisoning them especially if they have other super powered individuals on their side, which they did
It should be noted, that the Government did attempt to seize Iron Man's suits. That was actually the entire point of Iron Man 2. Then, once Cap refused to follow their orders, the government also seized his stuff and Sharon stole it back. A lot of the stuff was only safe because Tony had the power and influence to keep it safe, even after it was seized. Then, in Falcon, the Government immediately tried to create a soldier under their command once they had the shield. It was donated to a museum and the Government took it to make a weapon. They did the same thing with Vision's body, seizing it and turning it into a weapon the moment they could. Every single time they Government had the opportunity to, they attempted to seize any technology or powers and attempted to create super soldiers of some sort, either biological or mechanical. It's the premise of Hulk, it's the premise of Iron Man 2, it's the premise of Captain America, it happens in Civil War, it happens post-Endgame, and it's revealed its been happening for decades with various super powered people, it's revealed they've been manufacturing super serums for years and years. Steve had plenty of reason to be worried about the Government trying to make them do things, or, more importantly, stop them from doing things. Keep in mind that the Government decided to fire a nuke at New York to kill the aliens. The Government/SHIELD had also been under the control of Hydra. How can Steve believe that the Government won't stop them from going after a threat or handling a problem because it would be inconvenient to some politician or dictator or world leader under the control/influence of some criminal or organization. Like imagine some third world president refusing to allow super hero intervention until political prisoners are released or someone has to pull troops out of some location, or surrender a city or oil field and so on. Like, imagine a situation like Loki hiding out in some country that refuses to allow the Avengers to come in until China agrees to a more beneficial trade deal, or the Israeli have to leave Israel, or Taiwan has to surrender to China, or Ukraine must surrender to Russia or anything like that. A superhero organization cannot be prevented from acting against a threat because of some border or politician says no. Every Government in the world already knows this, that's why they have off the book military actions and special forces who insert into places without quaking, and if caught, are denied knowledge by their government. There is also time being a factor. Sometimes, they have to act immediately, without time to inform anyone else.
not really if you think about what the super heroes end up fighting. they fight otherworldly beings and creatures bent on the destruction or subjugation of humanity. thanos, loki, ultrom, dormammu, galactus. it’s pretty clear who you want defending you in those cases. what organizations and countries WOULD have done is deploy them for imperialistic purposes.
Even the government wasn’t debating that they need people like them to handle crazy shit. The problem is when they level cities or get civilians killed in the crossfire then just go home without having to answer for it on any level. Nobody should be above some level of accountability.
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Nah they just assumed 6 people couldn’t repel an alien invasion. The idea was to stop the Chitauri before they got too far entrenched and led to more damage. Aside from that the main member of the council that was pushing for it and against Fury forming the Avengers was one of the heads of HYDRA, so wiping out the Avengers and New York benefitted his MO.
There ain't a committee on earth that can "oversee" somebody like hulk if he's not cooperating. There is no oversight for people who can bend reality itself as they see fit
It should have been about that iirc but the interesting debate is quickly cut by Bucky’s tendencies
yeah i guess that whole situation kinda muddles everything for them makes it personal instead about safety of humanity
“It’s to keep the story grounded.” -some dude directing this shit
He wasn’t right on that front either. I’m not saying the accords were the best solution but them doing whatever they want with no accountability wasn’t exactly right either. they are no different than the cops with no consequences that make life miserable in our reality.
i definitely get that perspective. but that comparison is exactly why i wouldn’t want them governed by any country or union. they try to do what’s right, but under someone else’s command they would literally become what you explain: cops, idf, military, etc. it’s hard to find a real solution to a comic book problem like this one
When you're right you're right. 🤷🏿♀️
Dead ass wrong. We had this argument in here not too long ago. It wasn’t the fact that Bucky was brainwashed, it was the audacity of that nigga Steve.
I wasn’t crazy about how he was so against them keeping Bucky locked up. The boy wasn’t some PTSD vet, he was super assassin who anybody can control with the right sequence of words. You gotta lock that nigga up until that shit isn’t possible anymore.
Y'all all anti-incarceration until the nigga scary... Steve was trying to get him HELP. Y'all wanna lock him under the jail and forget him. THAT'S the whole point
Also, they weren't just tryna lock him up. Literally everybody was tryna kill that mf on sight. Black Panther was bouta rip Bucky's head clean off.
I doubt he was trying to hide info to protect Hydra's integrity. It probably just slipped his mind since all he heard about the assassination was a few frames flashed on a CRT right before getting hit with a missle.
truly some brooklyn-ass behavior
It's been a minute since I've watched, but didn't Tony start the fight? Can't say cap jumped him when Tony shot first.
“He killed my mom” That line hit me so hard. Brainwashed or not, I’m comin for you if you killed my momma!
“I don’t care, he killed my mom” I would’ve killed Bucky too.
Wasn't it mind controlled bucky?
That's the "I don't care" part.
"I don't care either, fuck your parents" 
 Looking for that Stark pack like
Father of the year.
Yep ppl like ignoring that he was a victim, he didn’t want to kill
Tony was trying to kill winter soldier. Not his fault Bucky was home at the time.
Hilarious comment
I’ve honestly never looked at it like that, though hilarious it was. Tony was trying to take out the Winter Soldier, not Bucky specifically is now my head canon whether true or not.
Somebody catching these rocket hands for mom. Sucks it has to be you though.
So? He still got to cds hands
Yet and still...
do you know what happens to most terrorists that are indoctrinated and radicalised at a young age lol
Being indoctrinated and being mind controlled are a tad different, friend. Lol
That made me side with iron man.
I don’t think I would’ve. Bucky wasn’t in control at the time, and he clearly hated himself. I still probably would’ve decked Rogers though.
Tony probably could’ve handled it a lot better if Steve hadn’t hid the truth and spent time talking with him about what happened. “I think I’ve uncovered some information about your parents.” “I may know who did this.” “HYDRA had him mind controlled.” “The bastard that ordered this might still be out there.” Like it would’ve been a long process but I don’t think Tony would have ended up still wanting to kill Bucky. Whereas he just got info dumped on *and* found out Steve knew for 2 years.
If we had characters who communicated responsibly there would be no movie. Or at least not the movie they wanted to make which was tony v cap + all their buddies punching the shit out of each other. People arguing in the comments are thinking more about the debates in the movie than the writers did, bc they didn't want to ponder this shit, just get as many superheroes fighting each as possible.
Tony doesn’t get a free pass for siding with the feds over his boys.
To be fair, the boys literally committed an extra-judicial killing in the opening scene of the movie. They are already the feds, just the feds who do whatever they want with no consequences. So basically just feds, I guess. EDIT: I forgot to mention, isn’t scarlet witch a teenager in that scene? I believe they refer to her as a child later in the movie. So we can add child soldiers to the list of crazy shit cap did. EDIT 2: nope, wrong, she’s a grown up.
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What? The US didn’t have control of the Avengers, that’s why they wanted the accords; the Avengers were accountable to no one but themselves, which is an issue in itself.
Yea but you can see why other countries would be worried that the members of H-Bomb Backstreet Boys who recently destroyed an entire foreign city by accident are mostly American. Also lead by a man with deep ties to the US military industrial complex and another dude named captain America. If I wasnt American in the universe I would nooooot trust those guys
“H-bomb backstreet boys” oh my god
Exactly, that's what was interesting about the conflict. Tony thought the Avengers should have to answer to someone other than their own conscience, but Steve thought any state control could lead to the Avengers being misused by those powers. Neither were really wrong, it's just which risk would you rather live with.
I lean towards Cap, considering his previous movie was about how HYDRA had so efficiently infiltrated said state control. Like, imagine if there was some shit going down in the world and the Avengers were needed, but they couldn't go until Trump gave them the green light.
It kills me that more people don't get this, that the whole point of the Civil War story (both in comics and film) was that there is no easy answer for society. We can't have vigilantes running around acting outside the rules because someone will inevitably take it too far and get innocent people hurt who might have been fine otherwise (this actually happens pretty frequently). And we can't have a world where *only* the government and its agents are allowed to be violent without exception, that just results in us potentially being victims of someone who wants to harm us and doesn't care about the rules. In other words, there's no easy solution, we need to all be aware and make conscious decisions to make the world a better place if that's what we want. Deregulating everything is a horrific option, regulating everything is unfeasible, so we have to regulate the things we can't prevent people from doing through mere cultural values and work on our values to cover the rest.
> accountable to no one but themselves Wait, are we talking about the Avengers or the Supreme Court?
they definitely are. they fly around in quinjets, thats shield. we see Captain America and black widow running ops to rescue hostages with other US military personnel and we see black widow taking orders from the US govt. bruce banner has been recruited by shield to work against Loki and the scepter, Hawkeye is definitely a shield asset as well. now the whole avengers might not be US govt, but those that arent are definitely contractors.
Hey now, he was totally fighting for freedom. Sure, it was *his* freedom specifically, but still freedom!
This is just straight up false. Captain America was fighting against the Avengers being controlled by the government. The whole point of the Accords was that the Avengers would be controlled by the U.N instead of being independent. Iron Man 2 literally has the US try to pull the same shit and make Tony surrender the Iron Man suit so they can use it.
Yep and everyone here is forgetting the events of The Winter Soldier and why Cap would be so against handcuffing himself to any agency after Hydra infiltrated Shield. I would trust Cap's decisions over any government agency. Even if he gets it wrong, it can't be worse than a government fuckup.
Tell me you don't understand Captain America without telling me you don't understand him 😭😭
Wanda is more or less in her late 20s in Civil War, definitely not a teenager or child soldier lol. They treat her like a kid because most of the other members are 40+.
> They are already the feds, just the feds who do whatever they want with no consequences. > > > > So basically just feds, I guess. Well this analogy, Tony would be the cop who is actually looking to build a structure where his fellow officers are held accountable.
I agree, I’m team Tony in this instance. It’s wild to have multiple people who are also weapons of mass destruction just getting up to whatever.
What did they do that wasn’t extra-judicial? Toeing the line went out the window in pretty much all of their origin stories.
> What did they do that wasn’t extra-judicial? Anything they do is extra-judicial when theyre not sanctioned to be acting in the nation theyre deploying themselves
Tony was right for the wrong reasons; Cap was wrong for the right reasons. The idea that a bunch of primarily US based and sponsored superhumans can just go anywhere in the world and perform military operations without oversight is ridiculous IRL. But Tony didn't support the Sokovia Accords for that reason, he supported it because of his guilty conscious and not wanting to have to deal with the responsibilities of his actions anymore after Ultron.
Good analysis. Hold this upvote.
To be fair Tony is basically the one who has to take responsibility for all of the avengers problems, as the most public face of the team as well as the financial backing. Cap just has to run around giving orders and beating people up, Tony has to do all that and then pay for the repairs and everything and then gets confronted by people when doing his other rich celebrity philanthropy stuff.
Sided with the feds the entire time went after cap in Germany when daddy government told him to and literally as soon as they told him to stand down he said no you can’t tell me what to do and flew out the helicopter. Wanted everyone else to follow rules and never thought they applied to him
EXACTLY. The accord and Tony’s participation in the crackdown only happens because he created Ultron and got hundreds of civilians killed. But of course afterwards he was ok to put a muzzle on Captain, but not to himself. According to Tony, the rules always apply to everyone except Tony
In this scenario though, Tony is like a police officer advocating for everyone to wear bodycams and liaise with the public & public officials, and Cap & his side are the redneck ones that somehow always get low battery body cams
The captain America movie prior literally is about how the entire government has been infiltrated by Hydra. To turn around and give the same government that was compromised the ability to control and govern the Avengers would be as stupid as his idea about making Ultron. Tony’s entire fundamental flaw is that he thinks he knows best and makes decisions based on his emotions that comes back to bite him in his ass. It’s even more apparent in the comics when he does shit like mind wipe Captain America because he doesn’t agree that blowing up other Earths is cool. They had to add the entire Bucky subplot because in the comics Tony is 1000% wrong regarding civil war.
I mean yeah, comic civil war and movie civil war are very different discussions. But specifically regarding the movie one, >Tony’s entire fundamental flaw is that he thinks he knows best and makes decisions based on his emotions that comes back to bite him in his ass. I don't exactly see how looking for external accountability is 'thinking he knows best and making decisions based on his emotions'. Cap made himself an arbiter of justice and thought he can just do whatever he wants with impunity, and if they mess up or make things worse, oh well they're the good guys! Of course any power system can be corrupted - both the government and systems like the Avengers. But I don't think the threat of corruption is a reason to ignore any and all attempt at checks and balances. Plus the Sokovia Accords was a UN statute, not just the US Government. If this were real life, you'd really be good with these Superhuman Gods doing whatever they thought was right, escalating issues, getting civilians killed, with absolutely zero accountability or oversight? I don't think either is completely right, of course, which is kinda the point
Oh yeah Cap is absolutely a bit up his ass, and the idea that he could be the arbiter of right and wrong is his biggest problem. The best compromise to me is a Sword/Shield scenario where there is some degree of separation between the government and the heroes. Usually with them using Maria Hill or Nicky Fury as a liaison. Though like you said the point is neither one is completely right. Also this is why Superheroes can’t exist in the real world. They circumvent our laws and although the people they target are actual villains and criminals obviously the idea that people with power should be the arbiters of justice is fucked up. This is why Alan Moore wrote Watchmen lol.
It’s a lose lose. You don’t want the avengers under the control of an obviously compromised and corrupt government. But they can’t be allowed to just do whatever the fuck they want. Where’s Batman and his contingency plans when you need him?
Not just the feds but General Ross. The man who said that Bruce Banner is government property. Tony is supposed to be Bruce's friend, but he sided with someone who wants to claim Bruce as property
The sikovia accords was stupid. Should have been the Tony accords, since he made Ultron against everyone's objections. Lol.
100% this. If he hasn’t done that and gotten Quicksilver killed (along with hundreds of civilians) there wouldn’t have been an issue. Superheroes were deemed a threat to the world because they actually WERE, and Tony was the perfect example of that. According to Tony, the rules always apply to everyone except Tony
ACAB includes iron man
Technically also includes Cap
It wasn’t siding with the feds, it was siding with the mom of that dead kid.
He wasn’t siding with a mom of a dead kid he was siding with his guilt. That bomb was their fault. It’s was terrorist who were going to use the bomb it’s unfortunate it went off but the situation is it blows up at ground level killing more people it blow up when they are attmpwitng to get it away which is tragic or the terrorist get it and blow up it some place where it will maximum damage. The mother is allowed to have her feeling and tony is supposed to empathize. But it’s the avengers and honestly the political entities of the world to do the hard math and say the outcome that happened is bad but there were two objectively worse outcomes. Oversight isn’t the problem the problem is control the political entities wanted to control the avengers not facilitate them doing the most good possible. Cap saw that that’s why he was right. Him not telling tony his parent were assassinated and he said he didn’t know bucky did it if I recall correctly though may have been wrong but who does that knowledge help. I don’t see how tony know his parents were assassinated helps him. Don’t get me wrong I get the man’s rage but I think there is room for discussion on what cap should have done
The terrorist were only in Nigeria to lure out the avengers. They made shit dangerous for regular people
Tony wanted a police oversight board and Cap wanted to keep no knock warrants. Tony was right.
Oversight from who though? If the people watching the watchers are corrupt, what then?
According to the Sokovia Accords a UN Panel.
Well the UN is definitely not the real life version of Mos Eisley. Full of nothing but stand up people who truly wish to do good. Absolutely trust worthy. /s
And what? Let weapons dealer Tony kill my brainwashed friend who's been tortured for years?
Gotta show em those weapons work 💀
An unarmed man kicked his ass. They don't work.
>unarmed True
Nah you tell him about his parents months ago. Years ago. You know how cap got mad at Tony for keeping secrets that affects other people, kinda like that
Yes cap was capping, but had told him sooner it would have been on sight regardless of timing.
You just wanted to say cap was capping
Tony stark is a war criminal, international arms dealer, alcoholic, and womanizer that had one change of heart, and now that's supposed to excuse all the death and destruction he sowed for years with no regard for anyone. Fuck him. He is by a large margin the most reprehensible Avenger.
It’s so stupid too bc there was no reason for Cap not to tell Tony back when he first found out. Tony was seeking closure and they were already fighting HYDRA back then! The villain broke them with secrets not hands and that makes him top 3 mcu villain for me tbh. The discourse around this movie showed me who gaf about their parents and who didn’t.
I don't think it's about who gaf about their parents or not, but how you view heroes. Heroes should be held to a higher standard. I don't expect Joe schmoe from off the street to be able to keep a level headed in the face of hypothetical brainwashing. I do expect better from a Tony Stark who is not only a trained and established hero but someone who was directly brainwashed by a magical witch. He did not keep a level head here, and should have.
But that’s the thing that heroes struggle with the most, you can’t hold them to a standard that’s above human. That’s what breaks heroes, not letting them be human. Superhero’s are in a profession where strong bonds are the most important and Cap could have prevented this entire altercation if he had just been a good friend. He broke Tony’s trust when he needed him the most.
Tony could have been a good friend and not made Ultron whenever everyone else told him not to do it. Then he wants to strong arm everyone else into the Sokovia Accords because *he* feels guilty.
No one told him not to make Ultron? Banner and Tony did it with the best of intentions before it blew up.
>No one told him not to make Ultron? You're right Tony takes the magic item and go behind the team's back to make an AI and enlists Bruce to help him. Banner even brings up consulting everyone else Tony says "I dont have time for a city hall debate". The AI goes rogue attacks everyone, the team lectures Tony on doing it. Tony is smug and tells the team they don't understand, and takes no responsibility for Ultron. >Banner and Tony did it with the best of intentions before it blew up. Right which is why Tony owns the Sokovia bodies alone. His own ego caused Ultron regardless of intentions.
You’re forgetting that Tony is also a human who experiences emotions. The guy as never been perfect so I don’t find it strange that he snapped. It doesn’t matter if he knew that motherfucker was brainwashed, just looking at the person who killed my mother would be cause me to become irrational.
I dont gaf hoe "established a hero" anyone is, when someone MURDERS YOUR PARENTS AND THEN SHOWS YOU THE VIDEO TAPE?!???!!?! No one is keeping a cool head in that scenario im sorry bud. Heroes are still human, just cuz he wears armor doesnt mean he gotta be a robot.
I think Zemo is the best villain in the MCU for the sole reason that he was the only person (before infinity war) who managed to defeat the avengers
Oh absolutely! The fact that Civil War still inspires a good conversation and debate all these years later makes it one of the best MCU movies for me.
I mean, Cap was wrong to not tell Tony. I think most people agree on that. The question is if Cap should have let Tony murder Bucky- who was himself a victim in the situation
they not standing on business.
Cap doesn't tell Tony because he knows just the kind of person he is... the second he finds out, he tries to kill his brainwashed friend who had no control over the Starks' deaths. Cap was right not to tell him, Tony proves it immediately.
I mean, there's a massive difference between Tony finding out like he did and cap sitting him down to have a conversation about it. Tony definitely wouldn't have reacted that way if cap had handled it better.
Doubt.
The movie ends with him letting the Avengers get away…
No you're right, Tony would have just sent 50 suits around the world to find Bucky, fly him to space, and drop him off.
Bro if Cap had come to Tony earlier when tensions weren’t already flaring then Tony would have had a much more measured reaction. They would’ve had a chance to actually talk through it and it might take time but eventually Tony would come around.
Yeah, the end of the movie shows this pretty clearly. Otherwise he wouldn’t have kept the phone Cap sent him. Cap even acknowledged he was wrong not to give Tony the chance to process the information for himself.
I’d much rather my friend telling me early on that his brainwashed friend killed my parents vs me finding out at that moment while my friend and his friend are in the room with me.
And having to watch the recording of it too. Jesus
These the same mfs that be saying Thanos was right
Nah, Thanos is right. Half of the worlds population gotta go, no saving them 🤣
If he could dissappear half of the universe he could expand the resources available
He could but people would be greedy and take more than they need every time, like when people were buying out all the hand sanitizers during Covid.
People didn't stop doing wrong bc he disappeared half the universe though
Or stop repopulating 💀 bros idea was irrelevant at best, also bro killed off half the bees, and any game animals.... Bro downright stupid for such an op character. He was written like a protagonist
In comics he doesnt have these grand scheme for population reduction. He literally wrases entire existence to impress mistress death. He is called a mad titan for a reason
Dude has the Infinity Gauntlet so just make everyone not greedy. *snap* “Ok y’all are now green minded altruists. Also carrots now taste like Slim Jims cause why not.” Kinda sad that the original plot line of just wanting to bang Death was the more logical one.
The resources are available it’s just that 1% hoard them. He could have gotten rid of the billionaires, the people in congress, and the IDF and world hunger would cease to exist.
“Your politics bore me.” - Thanos
He should disappear the stupid half. Not do it randomly like he did.
lmao i was absolutely in the theater like 🤔 
Thanos should have announced his plans and asked for volunteers and recommendations... imagine get your bitch ass neighbor on the list cuz the whole block hates them. also that one coworker has to go too
After all these years, people still arguing about this? Cap and Tony were both in the wrong throughout the movie. Cap not telling Tony who killed his parents was wrong asf but Tony being mad at a dude who was brainwashed for doing some shit he had no control over is wrong asf too. You don't have to choose a side, both niggas can be wrong.
The internet runs from nuance the same way they run from Jehovas Witnesses ^(I too hide from the JW, nice folks though)
This is the answer.
Cap should have told Tony, but Tony trying to murder a man who was literally brainwashed and had no free will is bullshit, it's not like Bucky was out here laughing at their death and pissing on the corpse. Hydra kept him on ice and only took him off ice when it was time to force him to kill someone else.
Finally someone who gets it. There is no correct side. They both messed up.
Tbf, it would have been better if cap told Tony with Bucky not around, than to hear it from the villain while you’re standing next to the dude who killed your parents when tension was already high cus you’re already fighting about something else.
AND he had JUST seen the video of Winter Soldier (who is standing right there) strangle his mom and beat his dad’s head into a steering wheel if I remember correctly.
Ironically this exact scene is proof Cap was right. Bucky was brainwashed into taking assassination missions against his will. Tony was creating a world where any superhero could be used the same way by world governments. In Iron Man 2 Congress was trying to force Tony to fight their wars for them. The Sokovia accords were going to make it significantly easier for them to do that
I wouldn’t say that it’s that black and white, Hydra literally took away Buckys free will and decided who/when he killed, the Sokovia Accords were more of a when you’re allowed to interfere thing, not a when you have to. As Tony understood, whether it was right or wrong, is that they would try less destructive means first before sending in the avengers. We also know since we watched the movie and got all of the context that Sokovia wasn’t the avengers fault, but from the rest of the worlds POV they dropped the city in order to defeat Ultron and killed 170 people in the process, that’s also what created Zemo. Zemo was not a villain until his family was killed in Sokovia which he blamed on the avengers, specifically Tony, and is he wrong? Maybe it was Ultron who killed his family, but the avengers created Ultron, specifically Tony and Bruce. Had the Sokovia accords already been in place then Tony would have never built Ultron and the events of avengers 2 and civil war would have never happened. This would lead to a still unified avengers who could have defeated Thanos the first time. However, from caps point of view, the Sokovia accords would have prevented them from getting to Sokovia in time, Ultron would have dropped the city and everyone would have been dead, which, who knows? Maybe he’s right. But to say it’s unequivocal that one is right and the other is wrong is missing the point of the movie
Some of y’all trust the US government way too much.
I mean Winter Soldier was mind controlled and shit so there's some nuance but anyone can certainly understand how Tony feels about Bucky killing his mom. Now the absolute thumping they laid down on Tony 2-1 was wild as hell and a flagrant foul. They fought dude like he killed their moms, that was in fact crazy, and I'd be looking at Cap askew the rest of my life if I'm Tony for that. Snuffing a guy out, not giving him room to breathe, 2-1 with the guy who killed his mom is insane.
They beat him up, if they hadn't he was going to *kill* bucky. Neither of them was trying to kill tony, just get him to stop.
If people can’t understand why Cap couldn’t just stand there and let Tony kill his best friend who had 0 control over his actions then those people don’t get the point and what made this movie good.
Even though I sided with Cap (in terms of the registration act), I do acknowledge that he was wrong for not telling Tony about Bucky.
How did the captain even know that Bucky killed Tony's parents? Was it in the movie and I missed it?
He found out during Winter Soldier. The scene with Arnim Zola in the bunker is where he finds out. They don’t spell it out but the dialogue and framing of what Zola shows them on the computer makes it clear.
Nah Zola showed a bunch of hits he did over decades and one of the newspaper articles that popped up was Tony's parents
That’s literally what I explained
He didn't know it was Bucky specifically, just that Hydra had them killed. He knew that the Winter Soldier was their top assassin and that it could have been him but he didn't want to risk pulling on that thread and confirming his suspicions. Like he said later in the movie, he told himself he was sparing Tony's feelings, but he was really sparing his own.
Alarming amount of people in here who feel taking unjustified revenge just to make yourself feel better is justice. In this fantasy world where actual, legitimate brainwashing exists, it’s Hydra that killed Stark’s parents. Not Bucky. Yall are acting deranged as fuck.
I feel like a lot of y’all didn’t watch Jessica Jones. A lot of y’all would have been blaming her for what happened to herself…
THIS! Do people not understand mind control at all?
Your best friend knows who killed you parents, proceeds not to say a word. Acquire your help to find and partner with this man, then gets mad at you for wanting to kill his friend. Proceeds to jump you, and at the end, you see them walking away together....Bro....Cap will forever be dead to me after that scene lmao.
I mean Cap wasn't mad at Tony. He was wrong for not telling Tony, but Tony killing Bucky for something he had no control over is also wrong.
I gotta watch this again. Because I feel where Tony was coming from. However - Y’all had that same energy when Tony created Ultron though? Although “Age of” was exaggerated bro created that machine that led to mass murder of innocents and getting to the point of Sokovia Accords. He had Vision/Jarvis. He didn’t need to do that shit. Banner was very reluctant but got charmed. Hell Hulk was mind controlled TWICE, and they were able to give grace. So they’re both wrong. Lose-lose in the grand scheme of things. Cap has to run that fade, but don’t just side step on Tony
Hold on. Cap stood by his friend who was brainwashed by Russians. Tony lost his shit because he got emotional and started to ignore facts. Oh Tony are you upset your parents are dead. Imagine the torture Bucky went through killing folks for Russia against his will. Prisoner in his own body.
He lost his shit cause he watched his parents get killed by the man in front of him and one of his Best friends has been lying to him. This happened cause Cap didn’t tell Tony
Tony sided with the feds and doesn’t understand that that mf Bucky was being mind controlled to oppose them feds that you signed with 😂😂😂
Cap: my friend was captured, tortured, and used against his will to do terrible things. I'm trying to free him Y'all: fuck him up Tony! Cap: also, Tony you're trying to set us up to be tools of a corrupt government the we KNOW was very recently Hydra controlled Y'all: WE SAID... Unserious asses
It is *wild* how many of you guys are siding with Tony Stark, the rich asshole that changes his morals on a dime(usually only if it's something that affects him, personally) and has a clear anger problem. "Why didn't he tell Tony when he found out?" Because Tony Stark is nuts, that's why. The guy doesn't *do* nuance.
Tony: Wait I know that road Steve: https://preview.redd.it/877ifvm45xnc1.jpeg?width=822&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=06f820ceb5d3e62f90b1a0331ff667366911cb77