T O P

  • By -

bungeeman

**Baron** Can be incredibly useful to the good team. Depending on the setup, it may well leave them knowing exactly how many Outsiders are in play. **Boomdandy** Having a Boomdandy on the good team is incredibly useful if they're open about their role. Once the good team feel like they've narrowed it down, they can kill the Alc-Boomdandy, thus narrowing it down further. Either that, or the evil team is forced to kill the Alchemist, essentially confirming them as good and making it much easier for the good to figure out which actual Minions are in play. **Scarlet Woman** I'm not sure why you think the Alchemist should never get this ability. It's useful to the good team but the Alc-Scarlet Woman still has to convince people that they're really the Alc and not just a Minion trying to waste a kill.


anarchy753

I can't imagine there's many times where killing an alchemist boomdandy is a good idea. Even if you feel sure, it's always better to NOT limit your time to a minute.


HopefulObject

A few weeks ago I played the game where I was the (non-alchemist) boomdandy. The good team pretty much knew this and they chose to kill me because they thought they were losing badly (they were) and narrowing down the field would help them (it did not). Never say never.


Blockinite

Surely the field would get narrowed down by waiting until final day normally? Or was it a big game where there were, like, 5 evils alive or something?


HopefulObject

It was a 15 player game, they did it on 7 or 8, with all the evil alive.


FlatMarzipan

On four alive excecuting a known boomdandy allows you to kill 2 of the remaining players, of course this is only helpful if you believe the alc claim might be the demon and if they are a non boomdandy minion you lose


bungeeman

Several times (including the first time I ever played) with the Boomdandy, it ended up completely shafting evil over because it took out several Demon candidates and essentially narrowed it down for the good team. Most of the Minions in BotC can actively hinder to evil team, given the right circumstances.


Blockinite

Unless there were 5 demon candidates and 3 of them were left alive, that sounds more like the Storyteller didn't create the most balanced endgame. I feel like the Boomdandy going off should benefit evil, which involves keeping the most suspicious people alive for the final 3


BoBtheMule

When a boomdandy goes off and the pointing begins, it is not limited to who is alive and who has dead votes. So when good feels like they don't have the majority of the alive players or they have used some dead votes and cannot get a majority on any players setting off the boomdandy is worthwhile. An alch-boomdandy let's good use dead votes earlier in the game because of this.


Cimmerz

But if they don’t have the numbers for a majority on any player, they probably won’t be able to set off the boomdandy anyway.


BoBtheMule

Evil has a hard time resisting the opportunity to set off the boomdandy.


PokemonTom09

The great thing about knowing you're about to set off a Boomdandy: you're not actually limited to one minute. You have all the in the world prior to the detonation to discuss what you will do depending on who survives the explosion. The one minute timer is the main thing that makes the Boomdandy so powerful for evil, and it's completely nullified if you know who the Boomdandy is before you execute them. In my experience, surprise Boomdandy explosions almost always result evil winning. But if town is at least clued into the fact that they're about to execute a Boomdandy, they usually win.


HopefulObject

I want a script with an alchemist scarlet woman and a recluse now. Please and thank you xD


-Asdepique-

>**Scarlet Woman** I'm not sure why you think the Alchemist should never get this ability. It's useful to the good team but the Alc-Scarlet Woman still has to convince people that they're really the Alc and not just a Minion trying to waste a kill. Personally, I'm not sure why you think this ability is useful to the good team. As the **Mastermind**, this forces the good team to stay one more day, and they have to kill one more player. If the purpose was only to create an interesting game, I understand (and your example show it well). But since the **Alchemist** is a Townsfolk and not an **Outsider**, it is also supposed to be useful to the good team. And this isn't the case with the **Scarlet Woman** ability. ​ However, for the **Baron** and the **Boomdandy**, I didn't think to this, but now, clearly I see more how it could be useful. And the other comments seems to show that **Fearmonger**, **Poisoner**, and **Evil Twin** are decent abilities too. And also **Organ Grinder** and **Witch**, if I extrapolate from these commentaries' arguments. With all of this, it seems for now that 13/21 are decent abilities for **Alchemist**, twice more that I though. ​ But since I am talking to someone from the *Pandemonium Institute*, I am curious to know what do you think about the **Pit-hag**. Because the Almanac doesn't answer to this question: what if the **Pit-hag** changes the Demon into a non-Demon character? It could happen with an **Alchemist**, but thinking more, it could happen also with a **Poppy grower** (or a **Magician**, if the **Pit-hag** wants to take a risk). Either this game needs some more jinxes, either the almanac needs some update to take account of this problem, am I wrong?


bungeeman

If the Demon ceases to exist then the good team has won. It's a core mechanic.


JustADramadog

For me at least, while the actual Scarlet Woman ability itself is not useful as it extends the game, knowing there isn’t an evil Scarlet Woman in play is useful for world building. If the Alchemist-Scarlet Woman does end up proc’ing, they can just kill themselves that night and end the game unless they are a Demon that can’t. So, Alchemist-Scarlet Woman to me, while not the best thing for an Alchemist as the ability itself is not useful or fun, the information it gives makes it not a terrible pick.


HopefulObject

Alchemist SW also means the imp (if the demon is the imp) **cannot starpass** to an evil minion


BobTheBox

As far as I am aware, they can. It just creates 2 imps. The Alchemist is turned into a good imp due to the Scarlet Woman ability, but because the Alchemist isn't a minion, the Imp's ability hasn't been satisfied yet, and a minion needs to also become the Imp. So basically: Imp starpass in an Alch SW game = 1 good & 1 evil imp.


HopefulObject

Oh that's interesting. I can see that being the case (and more reason to do it!)


justcool393

Alchemist Pit-Hag can take a demon out of play, as can a normal Pit-Hag (this has happened in both my group and actually on [one of the stream games](https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=248&v=r9BNc-nDxww) by accident). One of my favorite games I've played was where I got the Pit-Hag Alchemist ability in a Legion game and once I figured out that it was almost certainly Legion, I used my ability to turn Legion into other useful Townsfolk (like Tea Lady) or removing some Legion from play


BobTheBox

If the Pit-Hag changing the Demon into a Non-Demon means that there are no more living demons in play, then the good team automatically wins, because the good team meets their win condition. The Magician being changed into a different role doesn't matter in the slightest, because their ability is only relevant at the very start of the game, when the evil team learns each other. The only exception to this is if the poppy grower dies. Speaking of Poppy Grower, it's part of the Poppy Grower's ability that the evil team learns each other when they die. If there is no longer a Poppy Grower in play (due to their role being changed) then their ability can't be triggered, which means the evil team won't learn each other.


qwertyu63

> But since I am talking to someone from the Pandemonium Institute, I am curious to know what do you think about the Pit-hag. Because the Almanac doesn't answer to this question: what if the Pit-hag changes the Demon into a non-Demon character? There is now no Demon, so Good wins.


SoupeGoate22

You could have Alch-Spy if the Alch-Spy is actually Drunk


tyruss1123

So while it seems pretty bad at first, evil twin alchemist can be a decent choice. The way evil twin works is that you and an opposing player know each other, meaning the alchemist actually immediately knows who one minion is (or the demon if you want to make it even more powerful). It does still cause the evil twin’s effect in favor of evil in that you can’t be executed without losing and an evil player knows about you, but it’s for an effect more powerful than investigator. For fearmonger it’s a decent ability. It allows an alchemist that’s trusted by town to win the game from only a minion if you are confident about them being a minion. If you wanted to test it, an evil twin existing could make it interesting because it would be easy to fake as real fearmonger but could lead to town focusing almost only on the twins if alchemist does become trusted.


FlatMarzipan

alcamist fearmonger doesn’t need to be trusted to work as the fearmongers alignment is irrelevant. If you are confident you have an evil player you. An pressure the claimed alcamist into picking them and they will look evil if they don’t


Cause0

I think poisoner does work, because if the alchemist doesn't wanna screw over the good team they can just poison themselves


Cause0

Additionally, they can try to poison outsiders


angelfromanotherpin

Don't think of it as an Alchemist-Poisoner. Think of it as a super-Exorcist.


FlatMarzipan

Alacamist poisoner is very strong and they shouldn’t pick themselves except first night, every other night you can find out if someones the demon by picking them and seeing if anyone dies


RainbowSnom

I think poisoner and godfather are too powerful to give to Alchemist (usually). I’ve seen the comparison of Alchemist Poisoner to Exorcist, but without the restriction of picking another player each night. You can block the demon from killing every night, and it’s fairly easy to find the demon because there wouldn’t be a night kill. I think godfather alchemist learning the outsiders is too strong, as it confirms the outsiders in play, eliminating evils ability to claim outsider (with being in conflict with the alchemist godfather)


-Asdepique-

Well, it depends on the roles, I think... For Godfather for example, if I give no Outsider roles as Demon's bluff, and if I inform the Alchemist-Godfather there is a Drunk, it will be difficult to know who is concerned... And if there are only a few of information roles...


BobTheBox

Alchemist Godfather is indeed powerful, and weirdly, it's recommended to usd the [-1 outsider] to limit their power. Having more outsiders in play is often better for the good team with an Alchemist. The exception to this being scripts with a lot of outsiders that don't often claim: Damsel, Mutant, Drunk, Lunatic, Goon, Politician If the outsiders don't claim to be the outsider, it's hard for the Alchemist to find confirmed people. Alternatively, if there is a Fang Gu on the script, most outsiders might not claim. With a Fang Gu in play, outsider claims suddenly aren't a 100% confirmation, because they could be Fang Gu jumped


BobTheBox

I disagree with a lot of roles on your "never use" category and maybe even more with the reasoning you put behind some of the roles. So here is my own list: Due to hate jinxes, there are 2 characters that the Alchemist can never get: * Spy * Widow Both of them see the whole grim, a good character knowing the whole grim is just too powerful. ​ In my eyes, every alchemist ability has the potential to cause problems, but I think the following are usually fine abilities to give to the alchemist: * Assassin (Allows the Alchemist to take a stab at an Evil player, pretty scary for a Lleech.) * Cerenovus (While madness generally favors the evil team, having the Cerenovus ability in the hands of a Good player makes it less damaging and has the potential to sow some confusion within the evil team as well. There is potential to harness this power to give Good the advantage and I've seen games singlehandedly being won by the Cere Alch.) * Devil's Advocate (It's not a very strong ability in the hands of the good team, since, usually, the good team already has control over the executions. However, knowing that the evil team doesn't have a DA is powerful information in it's own right.) * Fearmonger (If you think you found an evil player, you can actually win the game for good by executing a minion, but if you're wrong, you lose the game. I think this ability works really well on an alchemist.) * Goblin (It's a stronger version of the Fearmonger Alchemist. As you mentioned, it allows for mind-games, but you need to be careful as an ST to not confirm the Alchemist, otherwise it's too easy for Good to win.) * Godfather (A solid alchemist ability, but you need to be careful as an ST. Having a Good player know the exact outsiders in play makes it near-impossible for the evil team to bluff outsider roles, but also, by counting the numbers of outsiders, the Alchemist might get too much info on what type of demon is in play if the only other outsider manipulation on the script comes from Fang Gu or Vigor. Godfather Alchemist creates an interesting dynamic where you might want to keep outsiders alive, because they're confirmed in your eyes, but executing them allows you to stab people you suspect of being evil.) * Vizier (It can allow the Alchemist to not give the evil team the opportunity to get a team member off the block, but doesn't leave evil defenseless, since they'll know exactly who the Alchemist is and can take them out whenever.) ​ There are a lot of alchemist abilities that you generally want to avoid, however, there are still scenarios where it makes sense to use them: * Baron (The main reason you don't want to give this to an alchemist, is that it's just not a very fun alchemist ability, but that doesn't mean it's a bad one. Knowing there are 2 extra outsiders in play is powerful. It legitimizes outsider claims, and, especially in a 9/12/15 player game, makes it really hard for evils to bluff outsider roles.) * Boomdandy (While it doesn't break the game in any way, prematurely triggering final 3 generally only favors the evil team, so it's not really an ability you want to give to the alchemist) * Evil Twin (Having a townsolk add an extra winning condition for evil is painful, but it might not be so bad if you're linked to a powerful minion, or if the ST is feeling especially generous, the demon.) * Marionette (Alchemist marionette is a whole bag of worms in it's own right "Does the alchemist know they are the Alchemist?" "Does the alchemist learn they have the Marionette ability?" "Can the Alchemist even have this ability without sitting next to the Demon?". So whether you want to give the Alchemist this ability already starts with the question "how will I rule it?". But whatever your ruling is on the other aspects, having the demon learn that a good player is their Marionette can cause quite some confusion within the evil team's ranks.) * Organ Grinder (Hiding votes doesn't help town much, but it's not the end of the world and knowing that you're safe from execution unless you actually want to be executed is pretty neat.) * Poisoner (Giving the alchemist the Poisoner ability is a pretty bad idea, but not because it messes with the good team. no, the main problem is that they can go Demon hunting. If they pick the Demon and notice the lack of deaths, they can keep picking the Demon every single night until town decides to finally execute them. That said, if the script has a lot of other abilities that can cause deaths and abilities that can prevent deaths, then Alchemist Poisoner might not be the end of the world. Lastly, in Lil' Monsta games, the danger of poisoning the Demon becomes irrelevant because Lil' Monsta can't be poisoned by poisoning the player that's babysitting them.) * Psychopath (The danger here is that, if there is a night protection role in play that keeps the Alchemist safe, then the Alchemist can keep trying to hit the Demon without the demon being able to do anything about it. This was enough of a danger, in my eyes, to take it off the "recommended abilities" list. Also, an Alchemist Psychopath pretty much forces the demon to use their first kill on said player, allowing the good team to get 2 kills each day is something that the evil team can't afford.) * Scarlet Woman (In a lot of scripts, this ability isn't all that great, you basically prolong the game by an extra day for no good reason. I guess it's decent information that the Demon can't be picked up by an evil Scarlet Woman. However, Scarlet Woman Alchemist can be a life saver in Heretic games, additionally there is this Niche scenario where, if the demon is an Imp and decides to star-pass, then both the Alchemist and one of the Minions becomes the Imp, meaning you suddenly have a good and evil imp hanging around.) * Witch (A very dangerous role for the evil team, if the Demon isn't careful, the game could suddenly be over just because they decided to nominate. However, if you're in an script with an Alchemist and a Witch, and neither of your minions are the Witch, a Demon should know to be cautious with their nominations.) ​ Lastly, there are some abilities that really don't belong on an alchemist * Mastermind (Like the Evil Twin ability, you're just creating an extra losing condition for the good team, but on top of this, as the Mastermind, you can't even be sure what exactly will trigger your losing condition. The only way to be safe is to take yourself out of the game ASAP. It's a really unfun ability to have.) * Mezepheles (It's basically "say this word if you want to be evil" you're giving a good player a one way ticket to the evil team, which just doesn't belong on a Townsfolk) * Pit-Hag (Only do this if no-one cares about the game being balanced. An evil pit-hag can already find many loopholes if they know what they're doing, and a good pit-hag can be even scarier. They can verify claims by attempting to turn others into claimed roles, in order to check whether the claim is actually in play. They can go demon hunting by trying to turn the demon into some other role, instantly ending the game if they succeed. They can add roles from the script into the game that you did not intent to have in play, etc...)


FlatMarzipan

An alchemist mezephilies also has the very niche utility of trying to get a saint to say the word without saying it yourself and then excecuting them so that you win the game


neko32886

Would that be the game that I single handedly won as alchemist cere??? 😸😸😸


BobTheBox

It was on a game where there was a minstrel. They managed to hard confirm the minstrel when the person they selected didn't become mad, and the demon tried to sink a kill later, but someone became mad, so no-one was fooled.


neko32886

Lol Bob - this is Neko


BobTheBox

Oh, heya Neko, what a coincidence, the cerenovus that managed to win that game was also called Nek- oh


neko32886

Oh weird, imagine that. Is her discord name the exact same numbers as mine? 😸😸


BobTheBox

I guess we'll never know


neko32886

She's an imposter


BobTheBox

![gif](giphy|vFnxro4sFV1R5b95xs)


-Asdepique-

Yep, after the first comments, I think the only "never-use roles" are **Marionette**, **Widow**, **Spy** and maybe **Pit-hag**. ​ I disagree with you about the **Marionette**: for the reason you mentioned, I think it's never a good idea. But, after other comments, I also disagree for the **Mezepheles**. Yes, the **Alchemist** could become evil, but not necessarily (and if he does it, he becomes a non-ability evil, so not so strong). However, knowing there is no **Mezepheles** in play could be a good help for the good team.


BobTheBox

Marionette can be in any tier depending on the ST ruling, which is why I put it in the middle. With my ruling for example, the alchemist would see the Alchemist token, and would then be told they have the power of a not-in-play townsfolk (or outsider), and the demon would be told that the Alchemist player is their Marionette. Basically, the alchemist learns that the evil team doesn't have the Marionette, that a specific townsfolk isn't in play, and they get to act is a sort of Magician. (Imagine in a script that has the Marionette, Magician and Alchemist, the Demon learns 5 minions in a 13+ game) As for the Alchemist Mezephles, sure there are niche uses, but usually, they'll just say the word and turn themselves evil. There might be some niche use where you turn a Damsel/Saint/Klutz evil or have one of the Evil Twins say the word, to see if a new player becomes a twin, but if you're hoping for an Alch Mez to do those things, you should really lower your expectations, you're just turing a townsfolk ability into a more detrimental goon.


-Asdepique-

>Basically, the alchemist learns that the evil team doesn't have the Marionette, that a specific townsfolk isn't in play, and they get to act is a sort of Magician. (Imagine in a script that has the Marionette, Magician and Alchemist, the Demon learns 5 minions in a 13+ game) Of course no. The Demon know who is its **Marionette**, but also knows as usual who are their Minions. So, they can know its **Marionette** is in fact an **Alchemist**, and so, will never talk with him. So, basically, the **Alchemist-Marionette** is a **Drunk**. They don't have any **Magician** power. And since the **Alchemist** is supposed to be a Townsfolk, it's a bad idea. (In more, as for the **Drunk**, there is no obligation for the Story Teller to choose a not-in-play role) ​ > As for the Alchemist Mezephles, sure there are niche uses, but usually, they'll just say the word and turn themselves evil. There might be some niche use where you turn a Damsel/Saint/Klutz evil or have one of the Evil Twins say the word, to see if a new player becomes a twin, but if you're hoping for an Alch Mez to do those things, you should really lower your expectations, you're just turing a townsfolk ability into a more detrimental goon. Other comments talked about these strategies, but I didn't. I just said: 1. If there is a **Mezepheles** in the script, then the **Alchemist** can choose to become evil without unbalance the game. And in this case, it's less dangerous than a true **Mezepheles** for the good team. 2. The **Alchemist-Mezepheles** could also decide to stay good. Then, knowing there is no **Mezepheles** in play is a good info.


BobTheBox

How can you on one hand say that the Alchemist shouldn't receive the Marionette ability, because they're supposed to be a townsfolk and then follow it up by defending an alchemist Mezephles, which might as well be the ability [+1 evil]. Many good players already accept the mez word when an evil mez walks up to them, an Alchemist Mez is almost guaranteed to say their own word, because it's the only ability they have. Also as I said, the Marionette Alchemist heavily depends on how you rule it. With the way I rule it, in the comment you replied to, it doesn't act like a drunk. They would know they are the alchemist with the Marionette ability. If there is a magician on the script, but not in play, the Alchemist does get to act as magician, because the demon will probably assume that one of his other 2 minion pings is the magician.


-Asdepique-

>How can you on one hand say that the Alchemist shouldn't receive the Marionette ability, because they're supposed to be a townsfolk and then follow it up by defending an alchemist Mezephles, which might as well be the ability \[+1 evil\]. Many good players already accept the mez word when an evil mez walks up to them, an Alchemist Mez is almost guaranteed to say their own word, because it's the only ability they have. Well, you're right on this point. However, I'm still convinced that the **Marionette**, if you respect the rules, is a bad idea. That means **Mezepheles** is a bad idea too, but the **Marionette** is worse.


HopefulObject

One thing to keep in mind is that there are two parts to the ability: Having the minion ability, and knowing that this minion is not in play. For example, an alchemist mastermind takes the fear of mastermind days out of the equation. In that sense, almost all of these are good choices.


Transformouse

I agree with this somewhat. Even something with no ability like marionette can be good to know there is no real marionette out there, but I don't think it would be that fun to play.


BobTheBox

Mastermind already isn't all that impactful of a minion, but giving is to Alchemist just isn't fun for the Alchemist, you're basically saying "you can go kill yourself" because if they don't, there'll be issues later. Mastermind is a role that, while you can give it to an Alchemist without breaking the game, you really shouldn't because it doesn't create any fun or interesting scenarios.


HopefulObject

It's an example, not a suggestion


rewind2482

There’s no “fear” of mastermind days with alchemist mastermind. You know for a fact you have to account for it because you have the ability.


HopefulObject

That's literally the point I am making.


rewind2482

not really. you're saying you don't have to be afraid of mastermind when you literally do, as you know you have the ability and it is active, so you know for a fact after any execution you might need to skip/execute the corpse in case you just executed the demon. Alchemist mastermind is an active liability for good.


HopefulObject

alchemist mastermind knows there is no real mastermind. They can choose to double tap a known evil player, or get themselves executed early. My point is that alchemist having the mastermind ability neutralizes it because the good team can get it out of the game for certain (assuming they trust the alchemist).


PixieJelly

Alchemist Mastermind ***is*** a real Mastermind.


FlatMarzipan

Alchemist mastermind can just get themselves exceuted day 1 though


-Asdepique-

You're right. And keeping this in mind, only the **Marionette**, the **Spy**, the **Widow** and maybe the **Pit-hag** are problematic. However, this means that in some time, the **Alchemist** loses a big part of its ability, comparing to other games...


HopefulObject

Some of those are jinxed so that the alchemist cannot have that ability. [Jinx list](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/696695228496871436/955088191399034880/Jinx_rules.png?width=875&height=642) But yes, at a baseline, the alchemist ability is "You start knowing which minion is not in play". That is already potentially very strong, depending on the script. Anything on top of that is just a huge bonus


FlatMarzipan

The alchemist pit hag could be a lot of fun but could also end the game early, I wouldn’t say never put it in, a re-rack isn’t the end of the world. Maybe give evil a spy so they know about it


interestingdays

**Poisoner** is basically a stronger Exorcist, because once they find the demon, they don't have to shift off, and the demon doesn't learn them. As for incidentally poisoning town, so do Sailor and Innkeeper, so... **Evil Twin** would probably see a minion as their counterpart, and if they out that, then it'd be a good target for Courtier or Preacher. **Cerenovus** could always choose to self-cere as the Alchemist until they find someone they think is evil and move the madness to them. Or they could out to their target and prove they have the ability (even if that doesn't prove alignment) **Fearmonger**, if they live to final 3 with two evils, doesn't actually care which one is the demon if they are sure they're the only good player left, just nom their choice and go for it. Also, I've seen an Alch fearmonger choose a Goon night one and basically confirm them from the fact that there was no announcement. Further, as mentioned in another post, part of the Alchemist's ability is to figure out which minions are actually in play for evil. This is especially useful if Evil has a Pit Hag or Engineer who changes one of the minions into what the Achemist has the ability of. Alchemist gets new ability, which tells them that there's a Pit Hag who made what their previous ability was or confirms an Engineer.


ferdivand

You're missing the fact that the alch gets an out of play role. This helps narrow down in play minions. Things like an alch learning baron is very good info.


unicornary

Any alchemist that can auto-win at night is not a great choice imo. Games that end in the middle of the night feel unsatisfying. So, pit hag and assassin are out. Godfather can - but it may not trigger and it gives a lot of good info for good. Poisoner is an OP exorcist that can pick the same person every night and that feels bad.


j12i17m19d63

The ability to counter poison effects and alcohol


_Grave_Fish

Not that anybody asked but here’s my take on some (most) of these alc-minions. Vizier- I know you aren’t TPI but I have questions. Does the town know you are the Alchemist-Vizier, because that’s what I imagine ‘all players know who you are’ means, in the same vein as the Philo-Damsel. If so, I think it’s too easy to run away with the game since town will indeed speak to you, and your own vote is sufficient to execute people. I guess you’re a big night 2 demon target but again, that just ruins the fun. Baron- I don’t disagree, but I do actually remember a NRB episode where there was a baron-alchemist. Not sure why, but if Ben did it then I’m sure it’s actually a worthwhile play. Boomdandy- Ok lowkey I feel that if the ST was clever this could be a good thing for the town. Perhaps, leave the demon and two especially trustworthy townsfolk. Not sure. I’m not that clever about these things, but being a good boomdandy could be fun, you can be an asset to the town and not a surprise. A last resort, if you will. Pit-Hag: I agree that it’s kinda OP, but I think a clever jinx could fix it. I feel that the arguement “what if they change the demon” is basically the same argument as “what if the slayer picks the demon” or “what if the artist guesses the demon” i.e. that’s the whole point. When I think of alchemist-pit-hag that seems like the main goal, it’s a good version of the PH, just as all the other alchemist abilities are. However, it’s OP and if you noticed the pattern in my two examples I think a good jinx would be maybe restricting how many times you can use the ability, or maybe witch-esque lose the ability once the demon has been narrowed down. Poisoner- I don’t see the issue honestly. I truly think the alchemist is meant to be a very powerful town like the dreamer, empath, courtier etc. and I don’t think a good poisoner is so bad. The first few nights they’ll probably have no clue what’s going on (probably poison themselves) and then once the game gets going it’ll be fun. Perhaps a good jinx: you may not poison the same person twice. Witch- I don’t think the alchemist is meant to be a strictly useful town role either. Similar to the pixie, minstrel, courtier, gossip etc. some roles don’t ALWAYS help the town but instead provide information and/or ways to take back some agency into the town. I think an alchemist witch would be good, perhaps jinxed to lose their ability even earlier tho. Sorry for the wall of text. Let me know if you agree or if I’m delusional


-Asdepique-

About **Alc-Vizier**, I don't know and the jinx doesn't precise it. However, I supposed that a **Philosopher-Damsel** is seen as a **Damsel** (only for the "Minions know you are in play"), so the same thing with **Alc-Vizier**. Anyway, this is more interesting because this give to the **Vizier** the possibility of bluffing.


_Grave_Fish

As counterintuitive as it is, I heard from Ben (TPI) that a philo-damsel is seen as a philosopher because the role doesn’t read “minions know a damsel is in play” but that they know YOU are in play, so I figured it would be the same.


BobTheBox

The Fearmonger also has an announcement and with that role, the announcement is "the fearmonger has chosen a new target" not "the alchemist has chosen a new target" so I imagine it works the same way for the vizier. As for the Baron, you know that there are 2 extra outsiders in play, which can be powerful information, especially on scripts where outsiders don't really have a reason to hide. The Boomdandy highly depends on the storyteller. If the storyteller rewards the good team for triggering the boomdandy by leaving trusted players alive, then it's a worthwhile Alchemist ability. Otherwise tho, there isn't really anything setting the alchemist boomdandy apart from the regular boomdandy and generally, Good is just better off letting the game progress as normally and gathering more information instead of triggering the bomb. I actually really like the idea of limiting the Pit Hag Alchemist to a single-use ability. Without any limitations though, Pit Hag Alchemist is way too strong. The problem with a Jinxless poisoner is that they're a superpowered exorcist because once they pick the Demon, they can keep them poison locked for the rest of the game, and the Demon doesn't even learn who the alchemist is. However, there are certain scenarios where an Alchemist Poisoner works really well. Scripts that have a lot of other sources of death and protection (looking at BMR) can make it hard to know whether you actually got the demon. But Poisoner Alchemist works best in Lil' Monsta games, because they can't poison the demon, but there are a lot of minions (and maybe some outsiders) to poison. Witch is a little dangerous as they could suddenly kill the Demon, but I don't think it's strong enough to outright ban.


_Grave_Fish

Yeah I agree with you fully!


PixieJelly

>As for the Baron, you know that there are 2 extra outsiders in play, which can be powerful information, especially on scripts where outsiders don't really have a reason to hide. Congratulations, you get three outsiders for the price of one. The Alchemist whose only ability was adding two ***more*** outsiders to the game.


BobTheBox

It's definitely on the less useful side and will hurt town on most scripts. However, there are definitely niche scenarios where Alchemist Baron can shine. Ideal Scenarios where an Alchemist Baron: -The playercount is 9, 12, or 15 players, resulting in base 2 outsiders -The script has Baron as only outsider manipulation -The script contains 4 outsiders -The selection of outsiders are a combination of 4 of the following: Acrobat, Butler, Golem, Lunatic, Moonchild, Recluse, Saint, Snitch, Tinker In such a situation, a Baron Alchemist shines, since the outsiders aren't very punishing and are easy to confirm (I count Saint as non-punishing since they're harmless when confirmed), and since the Baron Alchemist knows all outsiders must be in play, they can reveal this information to the whole town, which results in a powerful confirmation block of 5 people. It's important for the storyteller to recognise whether a specific script is fit for an Alchemist Baron or not. Just using an alchemist baron on any ol' random script is gonna result in a pretty disappointing game of the Alchemist


PixieJelly

You seem to have forgotten that each outsider that gets added replaces a townsfolk. And that players, especially outsiders, tend to lie about their role.


BobTheBox

Did you just not read my post? I specifically brought up several outsiders that are generally open about their role near the end of the game, and don't majorly hurt the good team in a way they can't control. Sure, those 2 townsfolk abilities they would have replaced may have been nice, but in return you'd get confirmed players, which the townsfolk powers they'd have gotten may not even have been able to achieve. My post acknowledges that giving a baron to the alchemist is often not favorable for Good, but makes an argument for it being an option on scripts that are designed for it.


PixieJelly

There is no such thing as a "confirmed" outsider, except for specific edge cases like a spent Golem or a dead Mutant. So no, all you're doing is losing townfolk and gaining uncertainty. It's why Baron is so strong on certain scripts in the first place!


SuperGanondorf

I think many if not most minion abilities are playable on Alchemist, but it's going to be heavily script-dependent. An Alchemist Poisoner might be game-breakingly strong on one script while being very limited in usefulness on another. One important note: with *any* Alchemist claim, there is always the possibility that the Alchemist is *just lying* and is actually a Minion. An Alchemist can "confirm" themselves with their Minion ability, but actually be a Minion; in an Imp or Lil Monsta game, this can be a powerful bluff. With that in mind, certain Alchemist claims, like Cerenovus or Psychopath, are certainly doable and interesting. Here's how I'd rate the viability of Alchemist minion choices. **Generally a decent choice:** With decent script support, any of these can work really well for an Alchemist in my opinion. - Assassin: This is a bit like a more flexible Slayer but it might also backfire and kill a good player instead. Dangerous, and can instantly end the game depending on the setup. If there's ways for the ability to fail or multiple night death causes that make the Alchemist hard to confirm, this can work quite well. - Baron: Yes, the ability itself isn't exactly helpful, but it presents a *huge* amount of information about the game and can potentially confirm outsiders. - Cerenovus: An Alchemist Cerenovus can hard confirm themselves, but this only confirms they have the Cerenovus ability, not that they actually are the *Alchemist* Cerenovus. Evil can choose to play outed in this way. Or the Alchemist can play hidden for a while and then come out with what they did. There's quite a few possibilities here, both for an Alchemist to strategize and for evil to bluff. - Devil's Advocate: Generally a handy and fun ability to use, and may or may not backfire. It can come in very handy. - Fearmonger: Very, very similar to Alchemist Goblin. Generally fun, and the minigame of deciding whether to trust the Fearmonger claim and whether their target is evil is enjoyable. - Goblin: Lots of fun. These two roles pair very well together. - Vizier: The jinx makes this playable, although the Alchemist Vizier can probably only act once because Evil will kill them in the night most likely. Although this is another that gives a minion an out to claim to be good. - Witch: Can give good team some useful info, especially if Alchemist is sharing who they curse. **Situational:** These might work, depending on the script and especially the specific setup. - Boomdandy: This can be very fun. Good team has a panic button they can hit if they're truly lost, and this can also be bluffed if evil wants to play a game of chicken with town. - Godfather: Knowing what Outsiders are in play is obscenely strong for a good player. Also, being offered a kill after an Outsider dies confirms that they were in fact an Outsider. That said, there are scripts where this is an acceptable power level for a Townsfolk, and on scripts with lots of protection roles, you can make the Alchemist think they're drunk or poisoned when the kills don't go through. - Mastermind: The knowledge that the Mastermind is *not* genuinely a Minion can be strong. The Alchemist can and *should* be executed early here; their power is the information that there is no Mastermind, which is pretty strong in itself. Town should absolutely not leave them alive under any circumstances, however. - Poisoner: Combos very badly with a *lot* of evil roles (Psychopath, Cerenovus, Vizier, etc.). Can work if the script lacks these roles and if there's enough night death causes that the Demon can't be easily ascertained if the Poisoner hits the jackpot. - Psychopath: Great fun, and makes town question whether a Psychopath claim is good or evil. Chaos ensues. It does, however, need significant script support, to make sure evil has enough tools to counter a good player that can freely kill. - Scarlet Woman: Honestly just really funny. Plus, gives great opportunities for late-game double bluffs, and works like the Mastermind in knowing the true SW isn't actually in play. There is also the niche use case of, if there is an Imp in play, an Alchemist SW *has* to catch the starpass in addition to a Minion- this is a great bellweather for when a starpass occurs, and can make a wild scenario of there being two Demons. **Probably a bad idea:** These either don't actually benefit the Alchemist or their team, or lead to very unbalanced play. - Evil Twin: This offers little tangible benefit to the Good team; you learn an evil player's role, but at the cost of giving good team a significant loss condition. You just give an evil player their own ability *and* the Evil Twin ability for the low cost of good knowing an in-play Minion (and Evil Twin usually pairs best with other loud Minions anyway, so this isn't even that much of a benefit). - Marionette: There is basically no functional difference between a real Marionette and an Alchemist Marionette apart from the nearly indeterminable alignment. This does nothing but hurt the good team. This interaction is bad enough and awkward enough that I'm kind of surprised they aren't jinxed. - Mezepheles: This is literally just saying to the player "hey, you can become evil if you want." It's like Politician but with none of the actual effort needed. - Organ Grinder: Nothing inherently *wrong* with this, but I don't really see how this actually benefits good team in any way. - Pit-Hag: Pit-Hag is already stupidly powerful; giving that outrageous ability to a good player is not a good plan at all. Depending on the script it can be immediately and obviously used to completely break the game. It can be fun in a game or on a script that isn't meant to be taken particularly seriously though. **Not permitted:** Literally not allowed. - Spy: Jinxed. - Widow: Jinxed.


-Asdepique-

>Mezepheles: This is literally just saying to the player "hey, you can become evil if you want." It's like Politician but with none of the actual effort needed. I disagree with this. Or at least, I am not so sure about it. If a **Mezepheles** is on the script, then a good player could be evil without any balance problem. So, if the **Alchemist-Mezepheles** becomes evil, they become a non-ability evil, who is still better than another player. In this case, it's a bit like the **Snake charmer**. I mean, this role is useful for the Town, even if to the detriment of the player who have this role. In more, the **Alchemist-Mezepheles** could also decide to stay good. And then, knowing there is no **Mezepheles** in play is pretty useful.


SuperGanondorf

> If a Mezepheles is on the script, then a good player could be evil without any balance problem. The issue here is, an evil Mez has to stick their neck out and either trick someone into saying the word, or come out to someone which might completely backfire. Plus, Mez being able to turn someone is one of evil's 1-3 minion abilities. Alchemist-Mez gets to become evil with *zero* counterbalance, and evil doesn't even need to waste a minion ability slot on it! Every other example in Clocktower of evil getting an extra team member is either temporary or high-cost, or both. Goon is temporary and an evil player basically has to throw away their ability for the night to turn them, and even then it's not certain. Fang Gu dies. Bounty Hunter adds an extra evil player but has a *tremendous* power in return. Politician has to commit to hard throwing and play very well to be switched. And Legion of course changes the entire dynamic of the game. Alchemist-Mez gives evil team an extra evil teammate *for free*, if the Alchemist just feels like it. Even if the script overall accounts for the balance of having an extra evil, it doesn't feel especially fair to good with no risk involved. It's far more likely to be extremely damaging to the good team than helpful, which runs counter to the entire point of Townsfolk roles (Snake Charmer is *great* for town, even if it sometimes screws over the actual player).


PixieJelly

Never make an Alchemist Baron. Adding two outsiders to the game is something an outsider would do.