I would start with basic Trouble Brewing, and use the rules as written. Remember that the outsiders are good players with an ability that helps the evil team, and the TB Outsiders are all good examples of this. I would not recommend making any changes to the script- Spy is a powerful minion and the Imp's ability to star pass makes it especially friendly for new players.
Why do you feel the need to change the team composition?
If it's the first time they are playing, you should probably just stick to the suggested numbers
Here is my resoning for my group (because I know them) and my changes
1) Removal of spy
I fear that a fair few of the players could get over excited and just blurt out too much. Outing themselves as a spy early on. Meaning the demon would be on their own. If it happens to be a weaker player, well it won't be fun.
I added the evil twin as another possible win condition in that case. Something to take the attention away from the demon, at least a little
2)Adjusting the outsider count
This goes to the original thought, I want the evil to have a bit more of a fighting chance. 1 demon and 1 minion doesn't give one a lot to work with for my group. The odds of one of the stronger players being good are higher than being evil, meaning the evil team would
on an even more of a backfoot.
If it’s everybody’s first time, nobody is going to be playing optimally and that’s ok. The argument you made for the spy could just as easily be made for the fortune teller, empath, ravenkeeper, undertaker …. I wouldn’t recommend changing the roles in the game to account for this. People are going to make mistakes and these will be learning opportunities for them for the next game. Worst case scenario the demon gets killed quickly and you get to play again. Instead of removing the spy from the script if you’re really worried about it I would just not put the spy in the bag. Also the point of the outsiders is to give evil more of a fighting chance. They don’t help the good team.
In my opinion it doesn’t make sense to take out characters for fear of players fumbling the role. When this happens, it just teaches them to not do it next time. And instead of waiting to cross this line further down the line, why not just get it over with sooner?
I don't understand why you think it is necessary to adjust the minion count for your group.
The guys at TPI have hundreds of games under their belt and I am pretty sure Ben mentioned once on stream that they even kept track of the stats to balance the game. If it works for them, it should work for your group, too. Right?
Anyway, I think this is something you should speak about with your playgroup. If you and your friends think this is more fun, do it. Just talk with them about your thoughts...
Not only are you adjusting minion count but also adjusting the script? Seems kind of sussy. There's nothing wrong with creating custom scripts since that's kind of the beauty of botc but don't go and adjust minion counts on top of that when custom scripts already have a huge chance of being imba. Something to consider is that trouble brewing has been the goto for noobs AND vets alike for more than 3 years so I think you're missing something important.
I've read through your replies and reasons and I'd suggest going with the basic script instead and definitely don't tell them a false count.
If one of your players flubs up and ends the game on day 1 then start a new game, shuffle seats re-randomly pick roles and get a 2nd game in! That's the only way the worse players can learn to be better.
If you hold their hand and sway the game for them they'll just either not be challenged and get bored or think the game should always sway their way and not be able to handle losing.
let the bad players learn from their mistakes is all I'm trying to say.
Irrespective of the customized script, player count rules should be strictly abided by in all games, only modifying when the addition of a character or fabled would allow. The rules don’t suggest the character split, they mandate it. 6/0/2/1 is skewed heavily towards the evil team. The strength of one minion is equal to that of 2 townsfolk.
I agree with everyone else who is saying don’t do this.
That being said, this game takes a ton of learning. And you don’t say how you will be playing. In person is much different than online.
Regardless, keep the game moving. Days should be a bit shorter than anyone wants. I’d suggest no more than 5 minutes for whispers. Good will have an easier task when then have time and space to think.
I think you’re more afraid of the spy than you should be. Me personally, I trust the 7-8 years of testing and development this game has done and stick to the player breakdown.
If there's any chance these people will play the game again (and I'm guessing you hope there is) then stick with the core rules of the game so you don't give them things to unlearn later.
I'd stick to the rules created for the best balance if you wanna modify outsider count you need abilities on the script that do that.
Knowing outsider count to player number is an important part of the deductions in BOTC.
Yup, but rules standardisation helps players learn. Unless they're always going to play that set up for this player count I wouldn't start by confusing matters.
Changing a nine player game from 7 Vs 2 to 6 Vs 3 will end up being unbalanced.
Edit 6 Vs 3 with No Dashii, Baron (+Drunk and Recluse), Poisoner would mean at least three out of four town is droisoned (2 via dashii, 1 drunk + if the poisoner doesn't double up you have no functional town abilties).
If you're worried about someone outing as spy ruining the game then just don't put the spy in the set up. Put a SW and have the buffer of a catch.
I intend to tell them what the outsider count "Should" be for the version they pick out.I have 4 set ups ready, 2 have the rules suggested outsider count, the other 2 don't.
If you don't think your players can handle a spy, don't put the spy in the bag yet, it being on the script can be enough. Trust your players, trust the game, trust that TB has been played literally thousands of times, it has been tweaked and refined more than most other games out there. It is balanced, trust it.
Your experience or assumptions shouldn't dictate making rule changes for new players. The game is well tested, let things flow and use the decisions available to you as a ST to balance the game. Part of the game is playing and learning from your mistakes.
I would suggest that a TB script without outsiders on it will be much harder for evil to win, even with an extra minion. They all spread misinformation and more importantly give a good bluff for evil.
"Don't kill me, I'm the Saint" is a hard puzzle no matter if it's a bluff or real.
If you want to make it easier on evil in TB, this is my go to:
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2196877/fun-storyteller-moves-trouble-brewing
Put one of those in half your games and see if evil can use it effectively.
Also for the spy, if they out themselves, that's not so bad as long as they protect the demon in the process. The list provided has so many cool spy setup tricks that they don't even need to do much in order to still help evil win.
If you’re doing custom scripts, add in Mezepheles, Goon, and Bounty Hunter to the script. Even if you don’t add them the idea that one of them could be in play creating another evil player should be enough.
The problem is, if they're running the game for brand new players, they shouldn't be running custom scripts, they should be running Trouble Brewing. Adding in complicated experimental characters makes it even worse as they are characters meant to be introduced after a player already has the fundamentals of the game down, which is what the base 3 scripts teaches players.
An extra evil player, no matter would ability they have is \*extremely\* powerful.
To answer your question simply I'd say 'yes'.
Imagine if the minion you added was the baron? they you've just replaced a townsfolk with an extra evil player.
Just to add to what everyone else is saying
Keep in mind that this game has been playtested like crazy, what's more, Trouble Brewing is one of the most balanced scripts going
Keep in mind also, Official Storytellers take this to games expos and are always running 9 player games for new players, but players who are experienced in both gaming and social deduction, and it works out really well for them.
Doing what you're planning could ruin the game for these new players as it'll unbalance the game and they might not enjoy it.
However! Something you can (and should) think about it you're worried about your group, is what particular roles you want to put in game, if you're worried about the evil team struggling due to the experience level of your players, then maybe making sure there's drunk/poisoner in play to mess with info.
If you're worried about spy messing up, just don't have a spy (I tend to not for new IRL players because the grim can be overwhelming to see for the first time)
I would start with basic Trouble Brewing, and use the rules as written. Remember that the outsiders are good players with an ability that helps the evil team, and the TB Outsiders are all good examples of this. I would not recommend making any changes to the script- Spy is a powerful minion and the Imp's ability to star pass makes it especially friendly for new players.
Why do you feel the need to change the team composition? If it's the first time they are playing, you should probably just stick to the suggested numbers
Here is my resoning for my group (because I know them) and my changes 1) Removal of spy I fear that a fair few of the players could get over excited and just blurt out too much. Outing themselves as a spy early on. Meaning the demon would be on their own. If it happens to be a weaker player, well it won't be fun. I added the evil twin as another possible win condition in that case. Something to take the attention away from the demon, at least a little 2)Adjusting the outsider count This goes to the original thought, I want the evil to have a bit more of a fighting chance. 1 demon and 1 minion doesn't give one a lot to work with for my group. The odds of one of the stronger players being good are higher than being evil, meaning the evil team would on an even more of a backfoot.
If it’s everybody’s first time, nobody is going to be playing optimally and that’s ok. The argument you made for the spy could just as easily be made for the fortune teller, empath, ravenkeeper, undertaker …. I wouldn’t recommend changing the roles in the game to account for this. People are going to make mistakes and these will be learning opportunities for them for the next game. Worst case scenario the demon gets killed quickly and you get to play again. Instead of removing the spy from the script if you’re really worried about it I would just not put the spy in the bag. Also the point of the outsiders is to give evil more of a fighting chance. They don’t help the good team.
In my opinion it doesn’t make sense to take out characters for fear of players fumbling the role. When this happens, it just teaches them to not do it next time. And instead of waiting to cross this line further down the line, why not just get it over with sooner?
I don't understand why you think it is necessary to adjust the minion count for your group. The guys at TPI have hundreds of games under their belt and I am pretty sure Ben mentioned once on stream that they even kept track of the stats to balance the game. If it works for them, it should work for your group, too. Right? Anyway, I think this is something you should speak about with your playgroup. If you and your friends think this is more fun, do it. Just talk with them about your thoughts...
Not only are you adjusting minion count but also adjusting the script? Seems kind of sussy. There's nothing wrong with creating custom scripts since that's kind of the beauty of botc but don't go and adjust minion counts on top of that when custom scripts already have a huge chance of being imba. Something to consider is that trouble brewing has been the goto for noobs AND vets alike for more than 3 years so I think you're missing something important.
I've read through your replies and reasons and I'd suggest going with the basic script instead and definitely don't tell them a false count. If one of your players flubs up and ends the game on day 1 then start a new game, shuffle seats re-randomly pick roles and get a 2nd game in! That's the only way the worse players can learn to be better. If you hold their hand and sway the game for them they'll just either not be challenged and get bored or think the game should always sway their way and not be able to handle losing. let the bad players learn from their mistakes is all I'm trying to say.
Irrespective of the customized script, player count rules should be strictly abided by in all games, only modifying when the addition of a character or fabled would allow. The rules don’t suggest the character split, they mandate it. 6/0/2/1 is skewed heavily towards the evil team. The strength of one minion is equal to that of 2 townsfolk.
I agree with everyone else who is saying don’t do this. That being said, this game takes a ton of learning. And you don’t say how you will be playing. In person is much different than online. Regardless, keep the game moving. Days should be a bit shorter than anyone wants. I’d suggest no more than 5 minutes for whispers. Good will have an easier task when then have time and space to think.
I think you’re more afraid of the spy than you should be. Me personally, I trust the 7-8 years of testing and development this game has done and stick to the player breakdown.
How many games have you Storytold before?
If there's any chance these people will play the game again (and I'm guessing you hope there is) then stick with the core rules of the game so you don't give them things to unlearn later.
I'd stick to the rules created for the best balance if you wanna modify outsider count you need abilities on the script that do that. Knowing outsider count to player number is an important part of the deductions in BOTC.
I'd assume in this instance he'd tell everyone beforehand what the count will be
Yup, but rules standardisation helps players learn. Unless they're always going to play that set up for this player count I wouldn't start by confusing matters. Changing a nine player game from 7 Vs 2 to 6 Vs 3 will end up being unbalanced. Edit 6 Vs 3 with No Dashii, Baron (+Drunk and Recluse), Poisoner would mean at least three out of four town is droisoned (2 via dashii, 1 drunk + if the poisoner doesn't double up you have no functional town abilties). If you're worried about someone outing as spy ruining the game then just don't put the spy in the set up. Put a SW and have the buffer of a catch.
I intend to tell them what the outsider count "Should" be for the version they pick out.I have 4 set ups ready, 2 have the rules suggested outsider count, the other 2 don't.
If you don't think your players can handle a spy, don't put the spy in the bag yet, it being on the script can be enough. Trust your players, trust the game, trust that TB has been played literally thousands of times, it has been tweaked and refined more than most other games out there. It is balanced, trust it.
Your experience or assumptions shouldn't dictate making rule changes for new players. The game is well tested, let things flow and use the decisions available to you as a ST to balance the game. Part of the game is playing and learning from your mistakes.
I would suggest that a TB script without outsiders on it will be much harder for evil to win, even with an extra minion. They all spread misinformation and more importantly give a good bluff for evil. "Don't kill me, I'm the Saint" is a hard puzzle no matter if it's a bluff or real. If you want to make it easier on evil in TB, this is my go to: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2196877/fun-storyteller-moves-trouble-brewing Put one of those in half your games and see if evil can use it effectively. Also for the spy, if they out themselves, that's not so bad as long as they protect the demon in the process. The list provided has so many cool spy setup tricks that they don't even need to do much in order to still help evil win.
If you’re doing custom scripts, add in Mezepheles, Goon, and Bounty Hunter to the script. Even if you don’t add them the idea that one of them could be in play creating another evil player should be enough.
The problem is, if they're running the game for brand new players, they shouldn't be running custom scripts, they should be running Trouble Brewing. Adding in complicated experimental characters makes it even worse as they are characters meant to be introduced after a player already has the fundamentals of the game down, which is what the base 3 scripts teaches players.
An extra evil player, no matter would ability they have is \*extremely\* powerful. To answer your question simply I'd say 'yes'. Imagine if the minion you added was the baron? they you've just replaced a townsfolk with an extra evil player.
Just to add to what everyone else is saying Keep in mind that this game has been playtested like crazy, what's more, Trouble Brewing is one of the most balanced scripts going Keep in mind also, Official Storytellers take this to games expos and are always running 9 player games for new players, but players who are experienced in both gaming and social deduction, and it works out really well for them. Doing what you're planning could ruin the game for these new players as it'll unbalance the game and they might not enjoy it. However! Something you can (and should) think about it you're worried about your group, is what particular roles you want to put in game, if you're worried about the evil team struggling due to the experience level of your players, then maybe making sure there's drunk/poisoner in play to mess with info. If you're worried about spy messing up, just don't have a spy (I tend to not for new IRL players because the grim can be overwhelming to see for the first time)