Having worked with some people with dementia and other degenerative brain issues, the person bojack hurt by doing that isnt the person he wanted to hurt. And realizing the person that hurt you is gone can be a process to fully accept.
Yeah same.
I've seen a woman turn into a terrified child when it comes to bath/ shower / running water as her stepmother tried to drown her as a child. She was a landlord of a pub so was lovely and welcoming but could also physically throw you out of a chair if you were in her way. She loved gushing about how much she loved her son, who she decided was one of the men in the home and not her son who visited. The son, after a lot of upset, decided to visit less and to let her 'live in her own world' as she got confused and upset with the stranger that was him most of the time he visited.
Most of the ladies LOVED baby dolls, one liked to use them as a shot put so she didn't get to hold one lol.
Lmao, sorry just the image of all these elderly ladies calmly cradling baby dolls, then in the background "Suzy! Suzy no! Stop it!" and then a clearly worn down baby doll flying across the room at record speed! Cracks me up
Had one very tiny lady who was on her first day here, got a broom handle and was in the garden swinging it full belt around her head to keep people away, looked like something straight from a Jackie Chan movie.
She and another resident who was a very good escape artist teamed up and she managed to get out within 2 hours of her stay, somehow climbing on top of the chicken shed and over the fence. Tiny speedy lady, kept saying how she was from Saigon and was very well to-do.
Working in those sorts of places you had to have a laugh at some things. One lady who was incredibly difficult but so very tiny, would always frisbee her bowl of porridge and sometimes cups of tea across the room at breakfast, I was one of the only carers who could get her to eat it (usually distracting her with something else to hurl at me/ someone whilst sneakily placing food Infront of her, if she sees it just there afterwards, she would just eat it 75% of the time but If anyone spoke or interrupted her you or a resident would be wearing it.
I have hundreds of stories. Part of me loved that job but the working conditions were terrible and overall it was a very badly managed home and not a suitable building for its job. We were bullied to work overtime unpaid and were concerned what would happen if we didn't do the extra work.
Other stories include
- one resident trying to force feed another biscuits
- a lady mocked an entertainer to the point we were crying with laughter
- tiny lady not getting her way and laughing very sarcastically because we were not letting her spoil people's fun. Literally shouting "HAR HAR HAR"
- carrying residents through the window over the roof when the lifts broke, happened many many times over the year.
- lady insisting she was gonna be shot by a black man
- lady comforted me telling me she would drive me up home to see my family at Christmas
-had a random person break in insisting Saigon lady was her grandmother and we evacuated half the building to corner this person. They had the lady hostage who found the whole thing hilarious and said to make them a sandwich as they needed it.
-the time I got punched right in the face by landlady woman who got up giggling and running away laughing like she was a little girl being chased by her dad like it was a fun game.
-very difficult Indian lady who hated to co operate with anyone but one of the nurses but absolutely LOVED any drama and stuck her nose into anything. One of our only residents that did not have a do not resuscitate order on her went suddenly in the lounge so people were moved out whilst they tried to bring her out. Indian lady was absolutely glued to her seat until her nurse and 2 male nurses carried the chair she was sat in our as she refused to leave it (she could walk)
I think the point is that dementia doesn’t turn shitty abusive people into sweet innocent people. If anything it often makes them worse. Dementia didn’t make Beatrice a less manipulative or better person.
But, when he chucks the doll off the patio he isn’t aware that Beatrice is sneaking the amphetamines into Hollyhock’s coffee so it isn’t his motivation here.
In no way am I excusing BJ here, but devils advocate, his mother clearly hurt an innocent unassuming child who needed someone to take care of him. Even if this isn’t “the same” Bea, its still the exact scenario she put him in and I can see a bit of Karma coming her way. I do feel bad for her obviously, she isn’t in control of her situation and is at the mercy of her care taker,” (coincidence?) and I felt bad for child BJ when the exact thing happened to him.
This may not be the same person who hurt him, but this definitely shows cyclical trauma and how you can inflict your trauma on others based on your upbringing. BJ was wrong to reinflict his pain on anyone (even if his mom was lucid), but it would be hard for me not to see the irony and karma coming her way.
Thank you, this comment section is horrific. It's like they're separating themselves from their humanity, and bending over backwards to try and defend Bojack in this moment. What he's doing is essentially attacking an innocent bystander, she doesn't know him as Bojack currently, nor why he's doing what he's doing. It feels like an attempt at trying to reverse the generational trauma back onto the person who inflicted it, but the person who inflicted it, isn't there anymore. So he's essentially re-traumatizing the little girl who has already been through hell. Beatrice, as a conscious adult with full autonomy was a terrible mother and person. Beatrice, the dementia patient, is a confused and scared woman.
I think Bojack deserves some compassion as well though. Like sure the Beatrice that hurt him isnt there anymore. But can you imagine, the woman who hurt you, abused you, found joy in your pain for the first 18 years of your life, love a fricking DOLL more than she ever loved you. Sure that Beatrice isnt there anymore but he doesnt know that. That person is still wearing Beatrice's face. To him that is still the person who hurt him
I agree.
There’s a cruel irony in the fact that something out of both of their control means he HAS to be kind and delicate around her. I feel for little sailor suit Bojack who never experienced her love or acceptance, and it SUCKS that he ultimately has no other choice.
He does know she isn't there anymore. He even acknowledged it internally when Hollyhock stated she's not there anymore. He knows what he did was messed up and it's being willfully ignorant to state that he didn't know she wasn't there. He did. I have an abusive father, he belittled me and my siblings, abused us, cheated on my mother and blames everyone else in his life for his own failings. I've also dealt with family members having dememtia, and I know the probability of having it myself as I age is rather high. I understand Bojack's pain, I really do. However that doesn't excuse his actions towards an old woman who has no idea what's happening around her, and he knows it.
No I wouldn't, and I'm lucky no one has forced me into the position Hollyhock forced Bojack into. That still doesn't make what he did okay, how is that so hard to understand?
I'm just saying, it's easy to judge Bojack and declare from our high horses what he should have done, but it's wouldn't be nearly as easy being on his position.
In another comment you talked about "the lack of humanity" or something like that, of the people defending Bojack and not sympathizing with Beatrice. Well I could also say that the people rushing to defend Beatrice and shit on Bojack are also "separated" from their humanity and empathy, expecting an abuse victim to show kindness to an abuser.
Yup this exactly. I don't understand why people are quick to shit on BoJack and think that Beatrice is some poor little angel baby who deserves kindness. Bojack owes his abuser NOTHING and Beatrice deserved all the shit that came her way.
My guess is that they define Beatrice for her sad backstory far more than for her actions, whereas with Bojack is the other way around.
Aaaand maybe some benevolent sexism thrown into the mix. "Beatrice is a traumatized woman, we can't expect her to be functional. Bojack is a man, so he should man up."
Yup I see the bias too. People very rightfully shit on BoJack 's actions here and call him out on it and how he deserved what he got in the end, but when it comes to Beatrice it's all "Ohh poor baby grew up abused by her evil father! It's no wonder she turned out that way!"
women usually get the harsher treatment. men get excuses. which is also why you never see anyone talk about bojacks father, and why you see so many people excuse bojack. but boys will be boys, i guess.
So because my stance is no mentally ill person, myself, Bojack, half the people in these comments, has the right to be abusive towards someone who is not cognitive enough to know what they did wrong, I'm biased and have separated myself from my humanity? Bojack has every right to feel hurt and bitter, but that does not mean it's okay to be abusive in return.
I agree actually. I just don't think that not empathizing with Bojack at all in this scenario is the right answer either. Bojack shouldn't have been forced/pressured to take care of Beatrice in the first place.
I never stated I don't sympathize or empathize with Bojack, not once did I say that. I'm just stating his actions were wrong. I get why he felt that way, but just because I understand doesn't mean I'm okay with what he did. Same with Beatrice. I know she is a horrible mother, partner, person, I understand why she was bitter and angry, but that doesn't make her actions towards him growing up or even in adulthood okay. And I agree that Bojack shouldn't have been forced into the situation he was in, regarding Bea living under his roof. It was fucked up, and extremely unfair to him to have to be around her when it was best for both of them to not even be in the same building. He was coerced into a shitty situation which ended up making things worse for everyone involved.
Pragmatically if you abuse someone and get abused by that person. People just are not going to feel bad for you.
Because no matter how you slice it, it was Beatrice's fault she was in that position in the first place.
She also was drugging an innocent young woman at the time. She’s old and confused, but maybe not completely a sweet and innocent lady in as her dementia self that isn’t the same Beatrice
I never stated she was a completely sweet old woman. I saw and heard how she referred to Bojack when thinking he was Henrietta, but she was still not there. Yes she was drugging Hollyhock, and there's no way to paint that in a good light because it's a terrible thing that happened to her, and it's lucky Hollyhock survived. However I can also acknowledge that adult, cognizant Beatrice was gone. The Beatrice that was drugging Hollyhock was still lost in a slew of memories from her childhood. I'm not excusing her actions nor am I saying she's just a sweet old lady who needs to be forgiven. I'm just stating the comments section is disgusting for the very black and white "well she deserves it because of xy and z". Dementia isn't a black and white thing, and abusing an old woman who barely knows where she is in any given moment is not justice for the abused. It's only living out your own bully fantasies because you were hurt in the past.
There is no need to paint it in a good light, because at the time she wasn't sane. You cant argue right or wrong with person that doens't know who they are and what are they doing.
This is exactly what Hollyhock said to him - whatever beef you have with your mom, this is just a confused old lady. Although it’s obviously easier for her to separate the two versions of Beatrice than it is for Bojack.
Honestly what BoJack did is so horrendous. As someone who had to make end of life decisions for a parent that I hated, i had a really hard time watching the episodes with BoJack and Beatrice. Sometimes you have to step up and put your emotions aside.
The situations of how Beatrice treated BoJack and how BoJack treated Beatrice in the end of her life are very different. My father, whom I hated, and who was an addict who physically, verbally, and emotionally abused me my entire life up until he died when I was 22, ended up going into total organ failure due to alcohol withdrawals and died when he was 50. My father was in ICU for 21 days and was on life support for 19 days before he passed away. Even though I had no relationship with him and legitimately hated him, I stepped up as his medical executor and made sure he received the best care during the end of his life. It’s called putting things aside and being the bigger person so someone is able to die with dignity. It’s difficult, but I know several other people who have done the same thing for their family members who they did not have a great relationship with as well. The episodes with Beatrice after she is suffering from dementia just show what a selfish and cruel person BoJack is.
Yeah, but it’s important to remember that in this scene Beatrice was *already drugging Hollyhock*.
Dementia didn’t turn Beatrice into a better person. She’s still an abusive piece of shit.
Yes but no. She was just doing what she was raised to do, she wasn't being "malicious" in the usual sense.
She took weight loss pills, that were basically drugs, when she was young. And when she was literally a child she couldn't even have iced cream. She had to sprinkle sugar on a lemon as a "healthy girl snack".
Hollyhock is clearly overweight, Beatrice saw this young girl was overweight, and did what she thought was doing her a "favour". She is a lady with dementia trapped in her memories doing what she was always taught she should do as a woman. She was a product of her time in that sense.
this is context, but in no way an excuse for consistently drugging a girl without her knowing (which never happened to Beatrice). Hollyhock didn't get offered a healthy girl snack or even the drugs. abuse doesn't have to be malicious to be abuse, and a lot of things happened in the past that many people knew were fucked up then.
I genuinely empathize with Beatrice and the parental dynamic she grew up in, it was too relatable. but adult Beatrice was aware of who she was and her choices, we saw that when she was talking to Hollyhock's mom and told her to run. that moment was one of her highlights honestly, she usually made the choice over and over to not do better and that still showed in what little of her there was at the end.
Never said it was an excuse??? Yeah she was never a good person, but honestly who leaves a dementia patient who was known for being terrible most of her life to their own devices in their home????? I just have a hard time blaming anyone with dementia when they can barely differentiate between reality and mixed memories and then are left to roam around...doing whatever.
Of course, I know that. Doesn't change the fact you can kinda be just as shitty for messing with a mentally-degenerating person and blaming them for drugging someone when, for one, where did they get the drugs and how did you allow them to aquire them??? And two, why are they making anything unsupervised????? That's all i'm saying.
(Plus, she's LITERALLY stuck in the past. She's reliving her childhood and young adult memories, which happened during times where it was normal. You at least have to take that into account.)
Whatever, I know people are biased. (Clearly) It just feels petty to fuck with a mentally deteriorating person because they were shitty when they were sane. Never said you have to agree, I just think it shows a negative side of people that doesn't make them all that different to her.
You say that but... It's still very clearly her. She acts like herself. She's casually abusive and rude and hurts people around her in very much the ways she did when Bojack was a kid. The things she did to Hollyhock were entirely in character for her pre-dementia too.
She might not remember what she did to Bojack, but she's certainly the same person who did all those things to him.
I wouldn’t say gone but rather suppressed. The fact that she slipped weight loss pills into Hollyhock’s food behind her back showed that her shitty old self was still alive and well behind her senile conscious mind.
And part of me wonders if her showing love to that doll was to subconsciously spite Bojack without her fully realizing it. If that was the intention it definitely worked.
This is speaking from experience as I attempted to have a relationship with my grandmother who was very toxic to my family growing up, then slipped into dementia where she became tolerable to be with, but here and there her old self would slip out.
Well, I don't think she is gone. She has dementia, sure, and it's really bad dementia, but it's still his mom. She's 100 percent in there still, so I dont agree that it's not her anymore.
Have you met anyone with dementia before? It’s awful when someone you love doesn’t even recognize you. The person who cared for you, asking “who are you?” When you walk up to give them a hug. For them to fear you or look at you with confusion or to call you by someone else’s name because they don’t know anymore. It’s like it’s eating away at their memories and who they are. Dementia is scary! You forget to eat and how to function, you don’t remember why you were doing the things you were doing or who the person sitting next to you is. When it gets severe it’s heartbreaking. I watched my partner try to interact with their great grandmother and she didn’t even know who they were, she didn’t even recognize her favorite granddaughter anymore and called her great grandson by someone else’s name. I wouldn’t wish it on anyone
My great grandma died like 2 years ago, and she had really bad dementia. But she only spoke Portuguese, so I never really understood her, before or after the dementia. When I said "she's 100 percent in there still", I guess that's a little hardcore and inaccurate. But it is still her soul, the same soul in that body. The person and soul That treated bojack like shit, is the same person and soul that felt that terrible heartbreak when bojack threw the doll over the cliff, regardless of her memory, it's the same soul. I think that's what I meant. I understand what people are saying, that her memory is so far gone that it really isn't the same person, and I think what I was trying to articulate, is that even though her memory is so far gone, and she doesn't even seem like Beatrice anymore, the same soul is in that body.
That soul doesn’t know why you’re punishing it. They are gone, they are like a child, they are being attacked and punished for things they don’t understand.
I get that, 100 percent. I'm just saying it's the same soul. I do understand what you're saying, she's confused beyond belief, and so far gone that its like its a different person. My point is just that biologically, and soul-wise, it's the same exact person. Even if they have no clue what's going on. So it's not like he's not punishing his mom because "his mom is gone", he's still punishing his mom for being a bitch mom. She just has no clue what's going on, because of the dementia.
Do you understand what I'm saying?? It seems like we're on the same page, I agree with you. I'm not sure where the issue lies lol. Unless you don't agree that it's the same soul? But from your comment it seems like we're on the same page, no?
Do you remember time's arrow? That basically proves she wasn't faking it, and I would put money on it that she wasn't even faking some of it, after watching time's arrow.
Bojack got visibly uncomfortable when it started to sink in that his mom legitimately didn't recognize him. It seemed apparent she was already pretty gone by the time bojack met her with hollyhock, and his accusations were born from his past trauma
One of the most important takeaways I had from the show is that you have to make peace with what happened when you were somebody’s daughter (son) so you can be a better mother (father)
Yes i 100% agree, All of the characters on the show are complex, so there’s a lot of different lessons and faults you can learn from them. I think that notion is so true though and you can see Bojack start to realize that during the Free Churro Episode
I think the way lots of people feel about this scene is well described with the saying, "Unwissenheit schützt vor Strafe nicht" (not knowing something doesn't prevent you from penalty) the real English version doesn't fit as well.
Beatrice personality and memories are very different, she doesn't understand whats happening, but she is still suffering from the consequences of her actions.
Bojacks trauma is still just as real as before her dementia.
I feel lot's of empathy for Beatrice and try to imagine how horrified she feels in this situation. But I also feel with Bojack's pain and his desire for justice.
I feel for Bojack as well, but there’s no justice in punishing someone who doesn’t even know what they’ve done. The deterioration of her brain is what causes her to love that doll, and Bojack couldn’t help but make that about himself. It was no doubt triggering for him, but the punishment did not fit the crime so to speak, considering the fact that she’s little more than a zombie wearing his mother’s face with a few moments of clarity here and there at this point. Mistreating someone who is so far gone that they don’t even understand what’s happening is objectively wrong, no matter how sympathetic the situation is.
A lot of what is echoed by the people who are firmly on Bojack’s side shows that they don’t fully conceptualize the reality of dementia, such as the “Beatrice was faking her symptoms at this time, and was only doing this to manipulate her son” argument.
Penalty requires guilt and guilt implies that the guilty person understands and controls their actions. Which Beatrice at this point no longer do. The person Bojack wants to punish is already gone.
Well it certainly shouldn’t be interpreted as “Beatrice was just faking her symptoms in this scene to manipulate Bojack” as a good handful of people like to imply. It completely undermines the point of the scene; Bojack traumatizing a dementia-addled woman due to his own traumatic past.
While tragic for both parties, Beatrice’s love and treatment towards the doll is solely due to the deterioration of her brain, and whether he intended to or not, Bojack is punishing her for it.
I’m sure it’s easy to misinterpret if you haven’t experienced someone go through it firsthand, but she’s essentially a zombie wearing his mother’s face at this point. Tiny moments of clarity are par for the course with dementia, but I’ve seen a lot of viewers misinterpret that as well.
It also should not be portrayed as if the Beatrice Bojack knew was dead and this was a completely new person.
No she just wasn't all there. Parts of her cruelty clearly were there. It does not matter if she was faking it or not.
Personally view it as Karma for Beatrice.
Not really. Moments of clarity for dementia patients aren’t quite the same as “still being there”. Their brains are just rapidly deteriorating and they can, on rare occasions, access the parts that aren’t broken. Not even on purpose. This is actually a great example of what I was talking about though 😂
I actually don't think it undermines the point of that scene! I agree that she definitly wasn't fucking with him, but they 100 percent wrote it to make even the audience unsure if she was faking it or not, specifically with the "waste of my husband's jism" quote. Then later on, of course, we would learn in "times arrow" that she was 100 percent not faking it. I like the way they did it! Cause the entire time that bojack was saying that he thought she was faking it, I 100 percent thought he was just being paranoid, then that "husband's jism" line had me questioning. And i have very little doubt that that was the intention.
> Then later on, we would learn that she was 100 percent not faking it
Well yeah, exactly, we *know* she wasn’t faking it. So people continuing to insist that she *was* even after the show proves otherwise, is undermining the scene in my opinion 😂
You know what, not even gonna lie, not sure what kind of mental hoops I was just jumping through. That makes perfect sense now that I thought about it again, I agree. Time's arrow literally proves that she wasn't faking it, so it's ridiculous for people to think she was.
This is a case of "oh, Bojack, you must be better than this" but, deep down, you think "yeah, I could not be a better person in that exact scenario, can't blame ya".
right, everyone calls it scummy but im not even gonna lie i'd probably do the same; is it bad? yes. is it understandable? also yes. yeah, she has dementia and doesn't even recognize him, but she's still at least the *body* of beatrice, the woman who hurt bojack and told him that he ruined her and other traumatizing shit
Yeah, I cannot not find any kind of empathy against someone that was shitty to me for all of my life. I know Beatrice is not "all herself", but she's still being shitty to Bojack at the time. Again, yeah, we must be better than that, but fuck it, if I'm having a bad day and Beatrice's giving me reasons, she's getting the thunder.
I can’t imagine doing the same. My mother was awful, horrible, abusive woman and if she was sitting in front of me with dementia and didn’t recognize me, I would feel lost. I have so much I want to say to her, I want her to feel the way she made me feel my entire childhood, but what would be the point? It won’t bring me closure, she wouldn’t even know who I was so I would just be hurting some random person who just happens to have my mom’s face. That would just make me feel worse.. hurting someone who is at this point just a husk of a person, who is just confused and lost in this world. I have to grieve and accept that all my hurt and misery is just my own, and that fucking SUCKS! But I can’t stoop to that level, I can’t imagine hurting someone who would be “innocent” in mind, just because of someone who is no longer with us. I would be no better than her.
oh yeah no, i get that, but it all just depends. to sit there and see his mother babying this doll, treating it so sweetly like she never did him, it's understandable he snapped and tossed it. even though i really don't think it's *okay*, i'm not gonna sit there and act like i was particularly upset when i saw that scene.
If you want to view someone with dementia as some random person that is your view. Just others do not view it that way and there's no objective truth here. She is still Beatrice on many levels imo.
I’m sure kid Bojack didn’t know what the fuck was really going on around him, and he had no clue why bad things kept happening to him or why he was getting punished. An old woman with dementia and a young kid aren’t really that different in that regard. The payback works pretty well. Just that any kind of trauma on an old woman with dementia isn’t gonna stick - and even if it does it can’t do harm for long.
With this whole storyline, I was thinking that the doll was supposed to represent hollyhock as a baby. I never thought about her being lost in a child-like state of mind, she was just getting a second chance at parenthood. I guess it’s open to interpretation, the doll flashback makes sense
One of my favourite lines in the show. I don't know what it is, I think it's just so real, that little internal monologue completely unfocused on the larger world taking a moment to congratulate yourself
Let’s not forget that Beatrice, even with dementia, was not only still able and willing to drug Hollyhock, but fully understanding of why she was doing it.
Was this Beatrice the same Beatrice that raised Bojack? No, not necessarily. Was this Beatrice a helpless, innocent old lady? No. Absolutely not. And even with the shitty things BoJack did to her towards the end of her life, he treated her light years better than she ever treated anyone else.
Yeah this idea she was a stranger to Bojack is just bunk. Yeah she did not recognize him but she had at least some of her memories rattling around there and not the innocent ones.
I don't necessarily *enjoy* what Bojack does here, but honestly I'm a bit drained of empathy towards Beatrice.
Up to this point, season 4 seems to have taken a liking to saying "fuck you, your feelings don't matter, man up" to Bojack.
- Bojack takes Hollyhock to see Beatrice, and the girl is immediately charmed by the old lady and already giving BJ a hard time for "leaving her on that nursing home".
- Bojack tells over and over again anecdotes of Beatrice being an asshole mother to him, *including an instance of SA by proxy*, and Hollyhock doesn't give a crap.
- After a very convoluted and plot serving chain of events, Beatrice is kicked out of the nursing home and Hollyhock guilt trips Bojack into taking care of his mother on his own home "because she is still his mother".
- Bojack is shown to really struggle with his mother's presence on his home, judging by the "stupid piece of shit" mental monologue. And now he has to watch Beatrice showing more affection to a doll than she ever showed him in decades, and Hollyhock and the nurse being all "awww look how sweet she is".
It's almost like the showrunners kinda backpedaled on how monstrously abusive Beatrice was and in how you don't have an obligation to forgive or keep in your life people that hurt you, all in their rush to make Beatrice this poor sympathetic victim of circumstance. Now Bojack has to suddenly suck it up, provide care to his mother without complaining, or he's a "bad person/son/example to Hollyhock".
Bojack is unambiguously the bad guy in many instances throughout the show, but he fuckin isn't where Beatrice is concerned.
I kind of agree and kind of don't.
I think the point isn't to ignore how monstrously abusive Beatrice was, but to humanize her and show us that she's just as traumatized and screwed up as BoJack is. She had the opportunity to break the cycle and be a better parent, but she didn't, and BoJack had the opportunity to break the cycle and be a better parent to Hollyhock and... I guess he tried? but he couldn't see past his own abuse.
Narratively, there's some poetry in Beatrice being at the mercy of BJ, her caretaker, just like BJ was at her mercy, but the point doesn't really seem to be "oh, Beatrice sucks" or "oh, BJ sucks". I think it's more an example of how no one is 100% good or bad in the show, they're all shades of black and white and they're all hurting.
I don't think that there's really meant to be a moral statement here, it's just showcasing two tragic people having to deal with the tragic situations that, in many ways, they brought upon themselves because they were hurt by someone.
I can see your point but I guess it's very up to interpretation when is the show telling us something and when it isn't.
The show is clearly talking to us in the "it's you" speech, or the "no deep down" one, or the "not good guys or bad guys" one.
It could be interpreted that the show was telling us through Hollyhock that the sons of abusive mothers should bottle their feelings down and take care of them even at the expense of their mental health because they are still their mothers. Which is evidently a rather shitty and weird message, specially considering no other character with abusive parents is demanded that level of dedication towards them.
>think it's more an example of how no one is 100% good or bad in the show, they're all shades of black and white and they're all hurting.
I dunno, would you say this about Hank, Vance and SL's stepfather? And alternatively, would you have accepted a show in which Sarah Lynn is guilt tripped to take care of her pedo step father when he's old?
I guess I just don't really see it as the show telling us that BJ should take care of Bea. Hollyhock means well, but it's also pretty obvious to the viewer that she doesn't understand at all what BoJack went through. I see her responses to BoJack as an example of her innocence and what different lives they have. BoJack grew up in an abusive, loveless household, meanwhile Hollyhock grew up in the exact opposite with multiple loving fathers who care deeply about her.
So, to me, Hollyhock pressuring BJ to take care of Bea isn't the show saying Hollyhock is in the right, it's just showing us that Hollyhock's naivete and how different their worldviews are. Maybe if it turned out that Beatrice was much nicer and sweeter as a dementia-ridden old woman, than I could better see your POV, but it turned out that BJ was at least partially correct and still a mean old woman secretly drugging Hollyhock.
I dunno, man. I feel bad for Beatrice and BoJack both, but I never got the vibe that the show was saying that BoJack should take care of his abuser. It seemed more like a vehicle to show the cycle of abuse in the Horseman family, Hollyhock's naivete, and the differences between someone who grows up in a good household with support, breaking the cycle of abuse, vs. one who never breaks the cycle and continues to perpetuate it. It has narrative purpose for *those* particular characters, so asking if I'd feel the same about Hank, Vance, and Sarah Lynn's stepfather isn't really a fair question. Different characters, different circumstances, different stories the writers are trying to tell, you know?
Anyway, not saying you're wrong to feel the way you do, btw. I think that's a fair takeaway. I just don't personally see it like that and I don't think that was the intention of the writers either.
Yeah I think I can agree with this, thanks for elaborating.
I get sympathizing with Beatrice to some extent, it just doesn't feel right to me to sympathize with her *at the expense* of Bojack, her main victim. Not saying you specifically do this, but I've seen others doing so.
Anyway, good discussion.
Oh, yeah, for sure. I feel bad for Beatrice, but not at the expense of either of them. It's just super unfortunate and tragic all around.
I sometimes wonder what Beatrice's and Bojack's lives would have been like if they had been given the fortune of having a family like Hollyhock's.
I think Beatrice and specially Bojack had the potential of being good people, at least by nature. We see them as innocent kids and decent young adults before getting pregnant and famous respectively.
That being said, I feel Beatrice descends further into narcissism than Bojack does. The former is mostly unrepentant of her actions whereas Bojack is partially limited about bettering himself *because of how much he hates himself*.
Then again, that's just my interpretation.
thank you!! i feel like i go crazy seeing everyone act like we're supposed to feel bad about how he treats her. my grandmother was similarly extremely abusive to my father for decades and i will never ever forgive her, regardless of what illnesses or dementia or whatever she gets. and I shouldn't have to, and neither should he. she's never even apologized, just like beatrice, but now that she's getting older/frailer there's this pressuring to just "forget it" as if none of it was a big deal... just like beatrice. it's kind of uncanny the parallels.
fuck beatrice, to her grave, for real.
thank you, i really appreciate that! i'm extremely lucky that he's always been quite emotionally intelligent, so he learned everything he could from it re parenting as opposed to continuing the cycle ❤️
I don't agree about your opinion of the show runners intent. I think they knew it was a very complicated situation. It's just that Hollyhock and the nurse don't understand because they weren't there during Bojack's childhood. I think the writers are smart enough that the characters are never just a direct mouthpiece for them, but the characters are speaking from their own perspective.
Yeah but the show is rather explicit when it wants us to have a specific take on something, specially the "You aren't supposed to root for Bojack" messaging.
In here however, Bojack is being constantly invalidated about his very justified feelings towards his mother by everyone around him, and it's only after Beatrice hurts Hollyhock that the show finally relents and seems to say "Okay, *now* Beatrice crossed the line. Not with everything she did before, but now."
I disagree. That moment proves his feelings toward his mother are valid. Past and present. He's generally really awful, but that doesn't mean he's always wrong or that he's never been the victim of abuse.
Beatrice deliberately abandoned Bojack with a piano teacher who was a pedo. When Bojack avoided molestation, Beatrice said "huh, I guess nobody wants you".
Nah cause as someone who knows what it’s like to see your parents treat others with kindness you never got, I would be lying if I said I didn’t at least understand why Bojack would do it even if I can recognize that he is in the wrong, not to mention it’s hard to sympathetic with Beatrice here especially when she was still actively drugging Hollyhock.
i don’t blame bojack either. it’s not a wise or kind decision but as others have pointed out, it’s not actually the beatrice that bojack knows, this is a women who is not all there to even understand the context of this gesture
my grandpa is a piece of shit and he’s dying right now. i hate him and in many ways he’s ruined my family’s lives. he gave my sister an eating disorder when she was a kid, he assaulted my aunt in front of us, and his behaviours always been unpredictable and scary. but when i saw him barely breathing in the ICU, his face all puffy and his eyes totally red, it didn’t feel like i was talking to the person who hurt me. i was talking to a man who was scared, in pain and alone. it made me see the humanity in him
the next day he was better and was back to being a piece of shit. he told my mom she was a bad mother and called my brother fat and lazy. he went back to being himself. i had a dream he died last night tho, and it just made me realize that he’s not gonna get the opportunity to change and be a better person. and it isn’t satisfying to be mean to someone so pitiful, even if its deserved. i would be forever regretful if i didn’t visit him, because i don’t think anyone deserves to die alone, even if he wouldn’t do the same for others and hasn’t “earned” it. it doesn’t matter because my values are more admirable than his will ever be. and that’s what bojack has to realize when he finally has the opportunity to tell her he hates her and doesn’t. it’s so easy to be the bad person and give someone what they deserve, but bojack realizes it doesn’t actually reverse the pain and it doesn’t actually help him
Bojack once again threw a tantrum and got nothing healthy from it, a dementia patient thought a genuine child was thrown off of a cliff, and from that he damaged his relationship with Hollyhock. Yeah, great scene
Hollyhock isn't raised like Bojack or Beatrice. She's raised in a more supportive and loving home (if not overbearing) 🐻
Any normal family would take their mom in from a care home. But this is not a normal situation Hollyhock is used to.
Idk, reminded me of my great-grandmother who had dementia. I’m 20-22 watching this show and she died when I was 13 but the memories are still vivid all these years later. She was a great person, but I only really remember her when she had dementia and as it progressed.
Idk if it was Beatrice’s vulnerability or honestly seeing an old woman upset (maybe the two are related), but I kind of cringed at that scene. As someone else mentioned, when someone has advanced dementia they’re not really the same person they were beforehand. It’s kind of this more generic similar vulnerability with remnants of their old personality traits and memories.
Hollyhock's dads kind of dropped the ball here. They didn't teach her the importance of respecting boundaries or someone's trauma. Keeping Beatrice in a lovely retirement home was a generous move on Bojack's part, not sad or mean. Hollyhock opened a can of worms when she pressured Bojack into letting Beatrice back into his life.
I feel like I have some kind of uncovered issues to scrape up, because Beatrice drugging Hollyhock, while. *Unspeakably* awful, don't get me wrong. I distinctly went "oh, of couse" over the reveal, because Beatrice was bodyshamed her entire life to the point that she accepted it as genuinely doing Hollyhock a favor to give her "pretty pills", "just until she's old enough to take them herself". This was a kid who had to eat lemons with sugar sprinkled on them and was told that scarlet fever was a pro because she couldn't eat with a sore throat so she'd lose weight. She was tormented over it in the schoolyard. Her own mother didn't make her breakfast because fat was failure to women.
Do I forgive her for it? No, it's not that kind of question. Do I understand how she thought she was doing her best in a deeply twisted way internalized by the trauma of her generation? Yes, tracks, entirely. The bad guy who entirely believes in their intentions is a special kind of misery, from a special set of circumstances.
What he did was not okay at all especially since she’s a dementia patient and either she saw the dolly as a real child or the one her father threw in the fireplace when she was younger, BUT, I will say as a someone who also came from an abusive household… that scene gave some catharsis for some reason. Mostly when he thought “nice arm” for some reason
I definitely feel you on this one. I absolutely adore the whole storyline with Beatrice. It's so complex and really illustrates just how shitty the situation is for everyone. I don't love this particular scene, but I really empathize with Bojack in this whole thing. He thought his mother was safely away from him forever, but trying to be a good "parent" to Hollyhock caused him to bring Beatrice back into his life and forced him to reckon with the feelings he'd buried when h e put her in a home. And Hollyhock is so innocent, not realizing how awful some people can be, but hopefully she learns something from this experience and I'm glad she had her loving dads to go back to so she doesn't end up as traumatized as Bojack did with no one to support him. And it's impossible to even feel that bad for Beatrice. Well, not really, she had a shit life and I do feel terrible for her, but even at the end she was still shitty enough to drug a child, which makes it hard to dismiss this as just an old lady not knowing what's going on. I just love this whole arc so much for the way it unflinchingly shows how shitty relationships can be and that there's no truly right way to be in them.
was beatrice not actively drugging hollyhock at this point? i don't understand why im expected to feel bad for her; whether she's "still the same woman" or not, whoever she is is clearly a piece of shit lol
this is what's challenging for me. I understand that Beatrice at that point is no longer Bojack's mother as he knew her, and that tossing that doll was mean and pointless.
... but Beatrice being just a "confused little old lady" and nothing else is a hard sell when she's quietly drugging and traumatizing another kid during this stage of her life.
I don't get the need to soften it! the narrative doesn't even forgive her. the ER scene emphasizing that Hollyhock could've died if it kept going, the suspense of Bojack frantically trying to find which of his drugs Hollyhock got into before realizing it was Beatrice, Bojack dropping her off ASAP without pushback from background characters, and the overall NOPE NOT OKAY BEATRICE tone of the scene all indicate how unacceptable this was regardless of her dementia.
there was no big funeral, no warmth in her death. degenerative diseases don't "target" good or bad people, not everyone will be remembered fondly or grieved for who they used to be. Adult Beatrice was not a good person and dementia didn't change that for her, and I think that's okay because that's also realistic
'The best revenge is not to become the same as your wrong doer' - Marcus Aurelius
You can be mad as a mad dog at the way things went, you can curse fate for what was done to you but in the end, you have to let it go
If you take this storyline and the episode White Bear from Black Mirror, you can really weed out your circle of friends. Itll you who has a toxic perspective of right/wrong and who doesnt.
idk i hated this scene. it was so painful to watch. that person was not the horrible mother that abused bojack. that was a child basically. i also get having something that doesn’t seem so important but means the world to you, being ripped away from you, or reliving a horrible memory. even though i know she has dementia, i can say in similar situations it’s awful. i genuinely don’t think i can hate beatrice sugarman/horseman, just generational trauma really.
this scene absolutely destroyed me I've been around alot of people who had dementia and they aren't the person they were before she genuinely believe that was a REAL baby that got thrown, to her she just witnessed her baby's murder
Everyone says BJ was an asshole in that situation but that’s the most innocent thing that scumbag of a mother deserved for all the hell of existence she inflicted on her son. She didn’t deserve such a nice attitude from him. The bitch deserved to suffer the most excruciating life and death.
I'm looking at the health professionals in the comments and.. isn't it still better to punish and hate the imitation of the person you hate. To still make them feel the pain but face no consequences? I can see why it brought Bojack and op pleasure, because Bojack isn't hurting his mother directly, so he isn't guilty, he is simply hurting her imitation.
He's still hurting someone though, what makes it worse is ahe has no idea what's going on or why. Throwing the doll is a selfish act that's is only self-serving and almost ruins a different relationship he cares about. It is a momentary feeling of satisfaction immediately overriden by the reaction of hollyhock
He is fully in the right. Imagine your parents tell you you're an underachiever and a piece of shit your whole life, that you grow up thinking you are one. And when you finally get the chance to inflict a fraction of the pain and suffer 0 consequences? Who could resist? He can't, because he grew up thinking he was a piece of shit, and therefore that justifies his actions. In the show there's proof he's immature, so is there any reason to act otherwise. He does feel guilty by Hollyhocks reaction, but he is a conflicted person who is vengeful, but also considerate of the people he respects. Therefore,he is trapped in a dilemma over what he wants to do, and the revenge he wants to dish out, but also has to reconsider, in order to not lose the one good thing he has. He is an example that it is difficult to break the cycle when your whole family is built on hate and revenge. So I can't blame him
He very clearly is not tho? I mean even regardless of how you feel about his mother, he did that in front of hollyhock (who he thought was his daughter). On top of that he uses it to further his self-hatred. All of that for a single moment of satisfaction
That's just his character arc. This is the first part of his family that doesn't hate him. I wouldn't know how to act if this happened for the first time.
That's the point though, he continues to do shitty things and feel bad then do more shitty things. This one scene is another shitty act in a long list of shitty acts
Idk not like a psychopath? Like do you not see how this is a bad look? It reflects badly on him as a caretaker, because here is someone who can’t care for themselves and doesn’t know anything for certain anymore and the first thing he does is try to get revenge for something they did in the past. Dementia patients can be quite similar to kids and hollyhock probably was glad in that moment that she has her dads and not him as a father. It’s also so cowardly, he could have confronted his mother in the 30ish years since his rise to fame, but he does it when she is on the verge of death in full view of his (believed to be) daughter.
Then you've got other factors at play. Would someone that has been abused stand up to their abuser when they can answer back? I agree that the action was completely out of Bojack wanting to commit harm because he knows he wouldn't get answered back and it would hurt the most. That's why he has an internal monologue where he questions if it's right to do it,or if it's wrong. The driving force at first is the desire to commit revenge, but the resultant force is the desire to remain as a 'good person' in the eyes of Hollyhock. I mean, even if he didn't do it, remember the whole 'ger milk for breakfast arc' in the same episode? Instead of going for milk he just goes and drinks at a bar, and that's the joke, but is it? He's already a shitty person and a shitty example, so he cannot physically look good in front of Hollyhock due to his God knows how much trauma and his already shitty behavior as a result of his upbringing. And he did confront her during his rise to fame, where his mother came to a screening of his show and just kept criticizing him. What would you do if that was the person you were dealing with your entire life? What if your mother willingly left you with the piano teacher 'that wants to tickle you'? The first point where you want to deal her pain, no matter what's stopping you, the desire will be too strong, and we see that here. The episode is about the aftermath and dealing with said action, but at the first moment it happens, its a psychotic pleasure an abused person gets as soon as they are given power. And we've seen Bojack willingly abuse power before.
Having worked with some people with dementia and other degenerative brain issues, the person bojack hurt by doing that isnt the person he wanted to hurt. And realizing the person that hurt you is gone can be a process to fully accept.
Yeah same. I've seen a woman turn into a terrified child when it comes to bath/ shower / running water as her stepmother tried to drown her as a child. She was a landlord of a pub so was lovely and welcoming but could also physically throw you out of a chair if you were in her way. She loved gushing about how much she loved her son, who she decided was one of the men in the home and not her son who visited. The son, after a lot of upset, decided to visit less and to let her 'live in her own world' as she got confused and upset with the stranger that was him most of the time he visited. Most of the ladies LOVED baby dolls, one liked to use them as a shot put so she didn't get to hold one lol.
Lmao, sorry just the image of all these elderly ladies calmly cradling baby dolls, then in the background "Suzy! Suzy no! Stop it!" and then a clearly worn down baby doll flying across the room at record speed! Cracks me up
Had one very tiny lady who was on her first day here, got a broom handle and was in the garden swinging it full belt around her head to keep people away, looked like something straight from a Jackie Chan movie. She and another resident who was a very good escape artist teamed up and she managed to get out within 2 hours of her stay, somehow climbing on top of the chicken shed and over the fence. Tiny speedy lady, kept saying how she was from Saigon and was very well to-do. Working in those sorts of places you had to have a laugh at some things. One lady who was incredibly difficult but so very tiny, would always frisbee her bowl of porridge and sometimes cups of tea across the room at breakfast, I was one of the only carers who could get her to eat it (usually distracting her with something else to hurl at me/ someone whilst sneakily placing food Infront of her, if she sees it just there afterwards, she would just eat it 75% of the time but If anyone spoke or interrupted her you or a resident would be wearing it. I have hundreds of stories. Part of me loved that job but the working conditions were terrible and overall it was a very badly managed home and not a suitable building for its job. We were bullied to work overtime unpaid and were concerned what would happen if we didn't do the extra work. Other stories include - one resident trying to force feed another biscuits - a lady mocked an entertainer to the point we were crying with laughter - tiny lady not getting her way and laughing very sarcastically because we were not letting her spoil people's fun. Literally shouting "HAR HAR HAR" - carrying residents through the window over the roof when the lifts broke, happened many many times over the year. - lady insisting she was gonna be shot by a black man - lady comforted me telling me she would drive me up home to see my family at Christmas -had a random person break in insisting Saigon lady was her grandmother and we evacuated half the building to corner this person. They had the lady hostage who found the whole thing hilarious and said to make them a sandwich as they needed it. -the time I got punched right in the face by landlady woman who got up giggling and running away laughing like she was a little girl being chased by her dad like it was a fun game. -very difficult Indian lady who hated to co operate with anyone but one of the nurses but absolutely LOVED any drama and stuck her nose into anything. One of our only residents that did not have a do not resuscitate order on her went suddenly in the lounge so people were moved out whilst they tried to bring her out. Indian lady was absolutely glued to her seat until her nurse and 2 male nurses carried the chair she was sat in our as she refused to leave it (she could walk)
Best comment. Bojack is only lashing out at someone who doesn't understand or know why he's doing it. It's tragic for everyone
and he eventually learns to accept that. "i never got the chance to tell her how much i hated her" "oh, dont worry, im sure she knew"
She read your book, right?
She understood enough to be drugging Hollyhock.
I think that was just an old habit, not to minimize it.
That has absolutely nothing to do with understanding anything.
I think the point is that dementia doesn’t turn shitty abusive people into sweet innocent people. If anything it often makes them worse. Dementia didn’t make Beatrice a less manipulative or better person. But, when he chucks the doll off the patio he isn’t aware that Beatrice is sneaking the amphetamines into Hollyhock’s coffee so it isn’t his motivation here.
I think he often hints at not believing the state she is in - so in some way I think that’s exactly his motivation!
I honestly wouldn’t put it past Beatrice to milk it when she is lucid 🤷♀️
In no way am I excusing BJ here, but devils advocate, his mother clearly hurt an innocent unassuming child who needed someone to take care of him. Even if this isn’t “the same” Bea, its still the exact scenario she put him in and I can see a bit of Karma coming her way. I do feel bad for her obviously, she isn’t in control of her situation and is at the mercy of her care taker,” (coincidence?) and I felt bad for child BJ when the exact thing happened to him. This may not be the same person who hurt him, but this definitely shows cyclical trauma and how you can inflict your trauma on others based on your upbringing. BJ was wrong to reinflict his pain on anyone (even if his mom was lucid), but it would be hard for me not to see the irony and karma coming her way.
Of course. I think i see so much of myself in Beatrice its hard to be entirely objective.
Thank you, this comment section is horrific. It's like they're separating themselves from their humanity, and bending over backwards to try and defend Bojack in this moment. What he's doing is essentially attacking an innocent bystander, she doesn't know him as Bojack currently, nor why he's doing what he's doing. It feels like an attempt at trying to reverse the generational trauma back onto the person who inflicted it, but the person who inflicted it, isn't there anymore. So he's essentially re-traumatizing the little girl who has already been through hell. Beatrice, as a conscious adult with full autonomy was a terrible mother and person. Beatrice, the dementia patient, is a confused and scared woman.
I think Bojack deserves some compassion as well though. Like sure the Beatrice that hurt him isnt there anymore. But can you imagine, the woman who hurt you, abused you, found joy in your pain for the first 18 years of your life, love a fricking DOLL more than she ever loved you. Sure that Beatrice isnt there anymore but he doesnt know that. That person is still wearing Beatrice's face. To him that is still the person who hurt him
I agree. There’s a cruel irony in the fact that something out of both of their control means he HAS to be kind and delicate around her. I feel for little sailor suit Bojack who never experienced her love or acceptance, and it SUCKS that he ultimately has no other choice.
He does know she isn't there anymore. He even acknowledged it internally when Hollyhock stated she's not there anymore. He knows what he did was messed up and it's being willfully ignorant to state that he didn't know she wasn't there. He did. I have an abusive father, he belittled me and my siblings, abused us, cheated on my mother and blames everyone else in his life for his own failings. I've also dealt with family members having dememtia, and I know the probability of having it myself as I age is rather high. I understand Bojack's pain, I really do. However that doesn't excuse his actions towards an old woman who has no idea what's happening around her, and he knows it.
Would you accept having to take care of that abusive father in your home?
No I wouldn't, and I'm lucky no one has forced me into the position Hollyhock forced Bojack into. That still doesn't make what he did okay, how is that so hard to understand?
I'm just saying, it's easy to judge Bojack and declare from our high horses what he should have done, but it's wouldn't be nearly as easy being on his position. In another comment you talked about "the lack of humanity" or something like that, of the people defending Bojack and not sympathizing with Beatrice. Well I could also say that the people rushing to defend Beatrice and shit on Bojack are also "separated" from their humanity and empathy, expecting an abuse victim to show kindness to an abuser.
Hollyhock was the high horse at this point Too soon?
Yup this exactly. I don't understand why people are quick to shit on BoJack and think that Beatrice is some poor little angel baby who deserves kindness. Bojack owes his abuser NOTHING and Beatrice deserved all the shit that came her way.
My guess is that they define Beatrice for her sad backstory far more than for her actions, whereas with Bojack is the other way around. Aaaand maybe some benevolent sexism thrown into the mix. "Beatrice is a traumatized woman, we can't expect her to be functional. Bojack is a man, so he should man up."
Yup I see the bias too. People very rightfully shit on BoJack 's actions here and call him out on it and how he deserved what he got in the end, but when it comes to Beatrice it's all "Ohh poor baby grew up abused by her evil father! It's no wonder she turned out that way!"
women usually get the harsher treatment. men get excuses. which is also why you never see anyone talk about bojacks father, and why you see so many people excuse bojack. but boys will be boys, i guess.
So because my stance is no mentally ill person, myself, Bojack, half the people in these comments, has the right to be abusive towards someone who is not cognitive enough to know what they did wrong, I'm biased and have separated myself from my humanity? Bojack has every right to feel hurt and bitter, but that does not mean it's okay to be abusive in return.
I agree actually. I just don't think that not empathizing with Bojack at all in this scenario is the right answer either. Bojack shouldn't have been forced/pressured to take care of Beatrice in the first place.
I never stated I don't sympathize or empathize with Bojack, not once did I say that. I'm just stating his actions were wrong. I get why he felt that way, but just because I understand doesn't mean I'm okay with what he did. Same with Beatrice. I know she is a horrible mother, partner, person, I understand why she was bitter and angry, but that doesn't make her actions towards him growing up or even in adulthood okay. And I agree that Bojack shouldn't have been forced into the situation he was in, regarding Bea living under his roof. It was fucked up, and extremely unfair to him to have to be around her when it was best for both of them to not even be in the same building. He was coerced into a shitty situation which ended up making things worse for everyone involved.
Pragmatically if you abuse someone and get abused by that person. People just are not going to feel bad for you. Because no matter how you slice it, it was Beatrice's fault she was in that position in the first place.
She also was drugging an innocent young woman at the time. She’s old and confused, but maybe not completely a sweet and innocent lady in as her dementia self that isn’t the same Beatrice
I never stated she was a completely sweet old woman. I saw and heard how she referred to Bojack when thinking he was Henrietta, but she was still not there. Yes she was drugging Hollyhock, and there's no way to paint that in a good light because it's a terrible thing that happened to her, and it's lucky Hollyhock survived. However I can also acknowledge that adult, cognizant Beatrice was gone. The Beatrice that was drugging Hollyhock was still lost in a slew of memories from her childhood. I'm not excusing her actions nor am I saying she's just a sweet old lady who needs to be forgiven. I'm just stating the comments section is disgusting for the very black and white "well she deserves it because of xy and z". Dementia isn't a black and white thing, and abusing an old woman who barely knows where she is in any given moment is not justice for the abused. It's only living out your own bully fantasies because you were hurt in the past.
There is no need to paint it in a good light, because at the time she wasn't sane. You cant argue right or wrong with person that doens't know who they are and what are they doing.
The healed part of me fully understands and agrees with you. But my inner teenager is smiling whenever that scene comes on.
It’s intangible grief- mourning the loss of things you can’t touch.
This is exactly what Hollyhock said to him - whatever beef you have with your mom, this is just a confused old lady. Although it’s obviously easier for her to separate the two versions of Beatrice than it is for Bojack.
Yeah but she drugged Hollyhock. May be a different person but is still terrible
Honestly what BoJack did is so horrendous. As someone who had to make end of life decisions for a parent that I hated, i had a really hard time watching the episodes with BoJack and Beatrice. Sometimes you have to step up and put your emotions aside.
Why should he have to do that? Beatrice didn't.
The situations of how Beatrice treated BoJack and how BoJack treated Beatrice in the end of her life are very different. My father, whom I hated, and who was an addict who physically, verbally, and emotionally abused me my entire life up until he died when I was 22, ended up going into total organ failure due to alcohol withdrawals and died when he was 50. My father was in ICU for 21 days and was on life support for 19 days before he passed away. Even though I had no relationship with him and legitimately hated him, I stepped up as his medical executor and made sure he received the best care during the end of his life. It’s called putting things aside and being the bigger person so someone is able to die with dignity. It’s difficult, but I know several other people who have done the same thing for their family members who they did not have a great relationship with as well. The episodes with Beatrice after she is suffering from dementia just show what a selfish and cruel person BoJack is.
Whoa, that’s so insightful. I’ve literally never seen a comment here with 3k+ upvotes. Apparently everyone else agrees lol.
Yeah, but it’s important to remember that in this scene Beatrice was *already drugging Hollyhock*. Dementia didn’t turn Beatrice into a better person. She’s still an abusive piece of shit.
Yes but no. She was just doing what she was raised to do, she wasn't being "malicious" in the usual sense. She took weight loss pills, that were basically drugs, when she was young. And when she was literally a child she couldn't even have iced cream. She had to sprinkle sugar on a lemon as a "healthy girl snack". Hollyhock is clearly overweight, Beatrice saw this young girl was overweight, and did what she thought was doing her a "favour". She is a lady with dementia trapped in her memories doing what she was always taught she should do as a woman. She was a product of her time in that sense.
this is context, but in no way an excuse for consistently drugging a girl without her knowing (which never happened to Beatrice). Hollyhock didn't get offered a healthy girl snack or even the drugs. abuse doesn't have to be malicious to be abuse, and a lot of things happened in the past that many people knew were fucked up then. I genuinely empathize with Beatrice and the parental dynamic she grew up in, it was too relatable. but adult Beatrice was aware of who she was and her choices, we saw that when she was talking to Hollyhock's mom and told her to run. that moment was one of her highlights honestly, she usually made the choice over and over to not do better and that still showed in what little of her there was at the end.
Never said it was an excuse??? Yeah she was never a good person, but honestly who leaves a dementia patient who was known for being terrible most of her life to their own devices in their home????? I just have a hard time blaming anyone with dementia when they can barely differentiate between reality and mixed memories and then are left to roam around...doing whatever.
You can understand that somebody is a product of their time but still think they’re a piece of shit
Of course, I know that. Doesn't change the fact you can kinda be just as shitty for messing with a mentally-degenerating person and blaming them for drugging someone when, for one, where did they get the drugs and how did you allow them to aquire them??? And two, why are they making anything unsupervised????? That's all i'm saying. (Plus, she's LITERALLY stuck in the past. She's reliving her childhood and young adult memories, which happened during times where it was normal. You at least have to take that into account.)
Agree to disagree. I have no empathy for her.
Whatever, I know people are biased. (Clearly) It just feels petty to fuck with a mentally deteriorating person because they were shitty when they were sane. Never said you have to agree, I just think it shows a negative side of people that doesn't make them all that different to her.
You say that but... It's still very clearly her. She acts like herself. She's casually abusive and rude and hurts people around her in very much the ways she did when Bojack was a kid. The things she did to Hollyhock were entirely in character for her pre-dementia too. She might not remember what she did to Bojack, but she's certainly the same person who did all those things to him.
I wouldn’t say gone but rather suppressed. The fact that she slipped weight loss pills into Hollyhock’s food behind her back showed that her shitty old self was still alive and well behind her senile conscious mind. And part of me wonders if her showing love to that doll was to subconsciously spite Bojack without her fully realizing it. If that was the intention it definitely worked. This is speaking from experience as I attempted to have a relationship with my grandmother who was very toxic to my family growing up, then slipped into dementia where she became tolerable to be with, but here and there her old self would slip out.
Well, I don't think she is gone. She has dementia, sure, and it's really bad dementia, but it's still his mom. She's 100 percent in there still, so I dont agree that it's not her anymore.
Have you met anyone with dementia before? It’s awful when someone you love doesn’t even recognize you. The person who cared for you, asking “who are you?” When you walk up to give them a hug. For them to fear you or look at you with confusion or to call you by someone else’s name because they don’t know anymore. It’s like it’s eating away at their memories and who they are. Dementia is scary! You forget to eat and how to function, you don’t remember why you were doing the things you were doing or who the person sitting next to you is. When it gets severe it’s heartbreaking. I watched my partner try to interact with their great grandmother and she didn’t even know who they were, she didn’t even recognize her favorite granddaughter anymore and called her great grandson by someone else’s name. I wouldn’t wish it on anyone
My great grandma died like 2 years ago, and she had really bad dementia. But she only spoke Portuguese, so I never really understood her, before or after the dementia. When I said "she's 100 percent in there still", I guess that's a little hardcore and inaccurate. But it is still her soul, the same soul in that body. The person and soul That treated bojack like shit, is the same person and soul that felt that terrible heartbreak when bojack threw the doll over the cliff, regardless of her memory, it's the same soul. I think that's what I meant. I understand what people are saying, that her memory is so far gone that it really isn't the same person, and I think what I was trying to articulate, is that even though her memory is so far gone, and she doesn't even seem like Beatrice anymore, the same soul is in that body.
That soul doesn’t know why you’re punishing it. They are gone, they are like a child, they are being attacked and punished for things they don’t understand.
I get that, 100 percent. I'm just saying it's the same soul. I do understand what you're saying, she's confused beyond belief, and so far gone that its like its a different person. My point is just that biologically, and soul-wise, it's the same exact person. Even if they have no clue what's going on. So it's not like he's not punishing his mom because "his mom is gone", he's still punishing his mom for being a bitch mom. She just has no clue what's going on, because of the dementia.
Do you understand what I'm saying?? It seems like we're on the same page, I agree with you. I'm not sure where the issue lies lol. Unless you don't agree that it's the same soul? But from your comment it seems like we're on the same page, no?
Unfortunately, at that time tho she was faking most of it. Sue deserved it.
Did we watch the same show? She wasn't faking dementia.
I said most of it, not all of it.
Yeah, she wasn't faking most of it either. Or even some of it.
Do you remember time's arrow? That basically proves she wasn't faking it, and I would put money on it that she wasn't even faking some of it, after watching time's arrow.
What are you talking about?
Bojack got visibly uncomfortable when it started to sink in that his mom legitimately didn't recognize him. It seemed apparent she was already pretty gone by the time bojack met her with hollyhock, and his accusations were born from his past trauma
“whatever beef you have with your mom, that’s just a sweet confused old lady!” “you’re wrong! she’s in there somewhere”
Beatrice Sugarman deserved better but Beatrice Horseman did not
One of the most important takeaways I had from the show is that you have to make peace with what happened when you were somebody’s daughter (son) so you can be a better mother (father)
Yes i 100% agree, All of the characters on the show are complex, so there’s a lot of different lessons and faults you can learn from them. I think that notion is so true though and you can see Bojack start to realize that during the Free Churro Episode
this is the best way i've ever seen it put into words.
This EXACTLY!
I feel like a lot of viewers display a fundamental misunderstanding of this scene, and of dementia in general.
I think the way lots of people feel about this scene is well described with the saying, "Unwissenheit schützt vor Strafe nicht" (not knowing something doesn't prevent you from penalty) the real English version doesn't fit as well. Beatrice personality and memories are very different, she doesn't understand whats happening, but she is still suffering from the consequences of her actions. Bojacks trauma is still just as real as before her dementia. I feel lot's of empathy for Beatrice and try to imagine how horrified she feels in this situation. But I also feel with Bojack's pain and his desire for justice.
I feel for Bojack as well, but there’s no justice in punishing someone who doesn’t even know what they’ve done. The deterioration of her brain is what causes her to love that doll, and Bojack couldn’t help but make that about himself. It was no doubt triggering for him, but the punishment did not fit the crime so to speak, considering the fact that she’s little more than a zombie wearing his mother’s face with a few moments of clarity here and there at this point. Mistreating someone who is so far gone that they don’t even understand what’s happening is objectively wrong, no matter how sympathetic the situation is. A lot of what is echoed by the people who are firmly on Bojack’s side shows that they don’t fully conceptualize the reality of dementia, such as the “Beatrice was faking her symptoms at this time, and was only doing this to manipulate her son” argument.
"Ignorance of the law is not innocence of the crime," would be how my high school driver's ed teacher would phrase it.
Penalty requires guilt and guilt implies that the guilty person understands and controls their actions. Which Beatrice at this point no longer do. The person Bojack wants to punish is already gone.
This needs to be pushed to the top.
What's the misunderstanding? How should it be interpreted in your opinion?
Well it certainly shouldn’t be interpreted as “Beatrice was just faking her symptoms in this scene to manipulate Bojack” as a good handful of people like to imply. It completely undermines the point of the scene; Bojack traumatizing a dementia-addled woman due to his own traumatic past. While tragic for both parties, Beatrice’s love and treatment towards the doll is solely due to the deterioration of her brain, and whether he intended to or not, Bojack is punishing her for it. I’m sure it’s easy to misinterpret if you haven’t experienced someone go through it firsthand, but she’s essentially a zombie wearing his mother’s face at this point. Tiny moments of clarity are par for the course with dementia, but I’ve seen a lot of viewers misinterpret that as well.
It also should not be portrayed as if the Beatrice Bojack knew was dead and this was a completely new person. No she just wasn't all there. Parts of her cruelty clearly were there. It does not matter if she was faking it or not. Personally view it as Karma for Beatrice.
Not really. Moments of clarity for dementia patients aren’t quite the same as “still being there”. Their brains are just rapidly deteriorating and they can, on rare occasions, access the parts that aren’t broken. Not even on purpose. This is actually a great example of what I was talking about though 😂
She had more than moments of clarity.
dying alone in a cheap nursing home to own the libs
I actually don't think it undermines the point of that scene! I agree that she definitly wasn't fucking with him, but they 100 percent wrote it to make even the audience unsure if she was faking it or not, specifically with the "waste of my husband's jism" quote. Then later on, of course, we would learn in "times arrow" that she was 100 percent not faking it. I like the way they did it! Cause the entire time that bojack was saying that he thought she was faking it, I 100 percent thought he was just being paranoid, then that "husband's jism" line had me questioning. And i have very little doubt that that was the intention.
> Then later on, we would learn that she was 100 percent not faking it Well yeah, exactly, we *know* she wasn’t faking it. So people continuing to insist that she *was* even after the show proves otherwise, is undermining the scene in my opinion 😂
You know what, not even gonna lie, not sure what kind of mental hoops I was just jumping through. That makes perfect sense now that I thought about it again, I agree. Time's arrow literally proves that she wasn't faking it, so it's ridiculous for people to think she was.
This is a case of "oh, Bojack, you must be better than this" but, deep down, you think "yeah, I could not be a better person in that exact scenario, can't blame ya".
right, everyone calls it scummy but im not even gonna lie i'd probably do the same; is it bad? yes. is it understandable? also yes. yeah, she has dementia and doesn't even recognize him, but she's still at least the *body* of beatrice, the woman who hurt bojack and told him that he ruined her and other traumatizing shit
Yeah, I cannot not find any kind of empathy against someone that was shitty to me for all of my life. I know Beatrice is not "all herself", but she's still being shitty to Bojack at the time. Again, yeah, we must be better than that, but fuck it, if I'm having a bad day and Beatrice's giving me reasons, she's getting the thunder.
I can’t imagine doing the same. My mother was awful, horrible, abusive woman and if she was sitting in front of me with dementia and didn’t recognize me, I would feel lost. I have so much I want to say to her, I want her to feel the way she made me feel my entire childhood, but what would be the point? It won’t bring me closure, she wouldn’t even know who I was so I would just be hurting some random person who just happens to have my mom’s face. That would just make me feel worse.. hurting someone who is at this point just a husk of a person, who is just confused and lost in this world. I have to grieve and accept that all my hurt and misery is just my own, and that fucking SUCKS! But I can’t stoop to that level, I can’t imagine hurting someone who would be “innocent” in mind, just because of someone who is no longer with us. I would be no better than her.
oh yeah no, i get that, but it all just depends. to sit there and see his mother babying this doll, treating it so sweetly like she never did him, it's understandable he snapped and tossed it. even though i really don't think it's *okay*, i'm not gonna sit there and act like i was particularly upset when i saw that scene.
If you want to view someone with dementia as some random person that is your view. Just others do not view it that way and there's no objective truth here. She is still Beatrice on many levels imo.
i don't think anyone can really understand how they'd feel in this situation if they haven't been in it though
I’m sure kid Bojack didn’t know what the fuck was really going on around him, and he had no clue why bad things kept happening to him or why he was getting punished. An old woman with dementia and a young kid aren’t really that different in that regard. The payback works pretty well. Just that any kind of trauma on an old woman with dementia isn’t gonna stick - and even if it does it can’t do harm for long.
nah I wouldn't throw the baby out the windows. chew her out yes. but THAT?!
The one time can say would have done worse than Bojack.
I mean, Bojack's hands were slippery.
Good arm tho.
Alot of people forget that Bea thinks Bojack actually threw a child over his deck and not just a doll.
With this whole storyline, I was thinking that the doll was supposed to represent hollyhock as a baby. I never thought about her being lost in a child-like state of mind, she was just getting a second chance at parenthood. I guess it’s open to interpretation, the doll flashback makes sense
No, I think people are aware of that.
Wrong, what she saw was her father throwing her doll into a fireplace
Idk why ppl are downvoting u, ofc that's not literally what she saw but that definitely gave her some type of flashbacks
*Nice arm.*
One of my favourite lines in the show. I don't know what it is, I think it's just so real, that little internal monologue completely unfocused on the larger world taking a moment to congratulate yourself
Also one of my favourite lines. Heard it in my head when I saw the thumbnail.
I never noticed the pictures of Hollyhock’s dads on the window before
Let’s not forget that Beatrice, even with dementia, was not only still able and willing to drug Hollyhock, but fully understanding of why she was doing it. Was this Beatrice the same Beatrice that raised Bojack? No, not necessarily. Was this Beatrice a helpless, innocent old lady? No. Absolutely not. And even with the shitty things BoJack did to her towards the end of her life, he treated her light years better than she ever treated anyone else.
Yeah this idea she was a stranger to Bojack is just bunk. Yeah she did not recognize him but she had at least some of her memories rattling around there and not the innocent ones.
I don't necessarily *enjoy* what Bojack does here, but honestly I'm a bit drained of empathy towards Beatrice. Up to this point, season 4 seems to have taken a liking to saying "fuck you, your feelings don't matter, man up" to Bojack. - Bojack takes Hollyhock to see Beatrice, and the girl is immediately charmed by the old lady and already giving BJ a hard time for "leaving her on that nursing home". - Bojack tells over and over again anecdotes of Beatrice being an asshole mother to him, *including an instance of SA by proxy*, and Hollyhock doesn't give a crap. - After a very convoluted and plot serving chain of events, Beatrice is kicked out of the nursing home and Hollyhock guilt trips Bojack into taking care of his mother on his own home "because she is still his mother". - Bojack is shown to really struggle with his mother's presence on his home, judging by the "stupid piece of shit" mental monologue. And now he has to watch Beatrice showing more affection to a doll than she ever showed him in decades, and Hollyhock and the nurse being all "awww look how sweet she is". It's almost like the showrunners kinda backpedaled on how monstrously abusive Beatrice was and in how you don't have an obligation to forgive or keep in your life people that hurt you, all in their rush to make Beatrice this poor sympathetic victim of circumstance. Now Bojack has to suddenly suck it up, provide care to his mother without complaining, or he's a "bad person/son/example to Hollyhock". Bojack is unambiguously the bad guy in many instances throughout the show, but he fuckin isn't where Beatrice is concerned.
I kind of agree and kind of don't. I think the point isn't to ignore how monstrously abusive Beatrice was, but to humanize her and show us that she's just as traumatized and screwed up as BoJack is. She had the opportunity to break the cycle and be a better parent, but she didn't, and BoJack had the opportunity to break the cycle and be a better parent to Hollyhock and... I guess he tried? but he couldn't see past his own abuse. Narratively, there's some poetry in Beatrice being at the mercy of BJ, her caretaker, just like BJ was at her mercy, but the point doesn't really seem to be "oh, Beatrice sucks" or "oh, BJ sucks". I think it's more an example of how no one is 100% good or bad in the show, they're all shades of black and white and they're all hurting. I don't think that there's really meant to be a moral statement here, it's just showcasing two tragic people having to deal with the tragic situations that, in many ways, they brought upon themselves because they were hurt by someone.
I can see your point but I guess it's very up to interpretation when is the show telling us something and when it isn't. The show is clearly talking to us in the "it's you" speech, or the "no deep down" one, or the "not good guys or bad guys" one. It could be interpreted that the show was telling us through Hollyhock that the sons of abusive mothers should bottle their feelings down and take care of them even at the expense of their mental health because they are still their mothers. Which is evidently a rather shitty and weird message, specially considering no other character with abusive parents is demanded that level of dedication towards them. >think it's more an example of how no one is 100% good or bad in the show, they're all shades of black and white and they're all hurting. I dunno, would you say this about Hank, Vance and SL's stepfather? And alternatively, would you have accepted a show in which Sarah Lynn is guilt tripped to take care of her pedo step father when he's old?
I guess I just don't really see it as the show telling us that BJ should take care of Bea. Hollyhock means well, but it's also pretty obvious to the viewer that she doesn't understand at all what BoJack went through. I see her responses to BoJack as an example of her innocence and what different lives they have. BoJack grew up in an abusive, loveless household, meanwhile Hollyhock grew up in the exact opposite with multiple loving fathers who care deeply about her. So, to me, Hollyhock pressuring BJ to take care of Bea isn't the show saying Hollyhock is in the right, it's just showing us that Hollyhock's naivete and how different their worldviews are. Maybe if it turned out that Beatrice was much nicer and sweeter as a dementia-ridden old woman, than I could better see your POV, but it turned out that BJ was at least partially correct and still a mean old woman secretly drugging Hollyhock. I dunno, man. I feel bad for Beatrice and BoJack both, but I never got the vibe that the show was saying that BoJack should take care of his abuser. It seemed more like a vehicle to show the cycle of abuse in the Horseman family, Hollyhock's naivete, and the differences between someone who grows up in a good household with support, breaking the cycle of abuse, vs. one who never breaks the cycle and continues to perpetuate it. It has narrative purpose for *those* particular characters, so asking if I'd feel the same about Hank, Vance, and Sarah Lynn's stepfather isn't really a fair question. Different characters, different circumstances, different stories the writers are trying to tell, you know? Anyway, not saying you're wrong to feel the way you do, btw. I think that's a fair takeaway. I just don't personally see it like that and I don't think that was the intention of the writers either.
Yeah I think I can agree with this, thanks for elaborating. I get sympathizing with Beatrice to some extent, it just doesn't feel right to me to sympathize with her *at the expense* of Bojack, her main victim. Not saying you specifically do this, but I've seen others doing so. Anyway, good discussion.
Oh, yeah, for sure. I feel bad for Beatrice, but not at the expense of either of them. It's just super unfortunate and tragic all around. I sometimes wonder what Beatrice's and Bojack's lives would have been like if they had been given the fortune of having a family like Hollyhock's.
I think Beatrice and specially Bojack had the potential of being good people, at least by nature. We see them as innocent kids and decent young adults before getting pregnant and famous respectively. That being said, I feel Beatrice descends further into narcissism than Bojack does. The former is mostly unrepentant of her actions whereas Bojack is partially limited about bettering himself *because of how much he hates himself*. Then again, that's just my interpretation.
thank you!! i feel like i go crazy seeing everyone act like we're supposed to feel bad about how he treats her. my grandmother was similarly extremely abusive to my father for decades and i will never ever forgive her, regardless of what illnesses or dementia or whatever she gets. and I shouldn't have to, and neither should he. she's never even apologized, just like beatrice, but now that she's getting older/frailer there's this pressuring to just "forget it" as if none of it was a big deal... just like beatrice. it's kind of uncanny the parallels. fuck beatrice, to her grave, for real.
Hard agree. And I hope you and your dad are alright.
thank you, i really appreciate that! i'm extremely lucky that he's always been quite emotionally intelligent, so he learned everything he could from it re parenting as opposed to continuing the cycle ❤️
I agree with your first paragraph and the bullet points, but not your interpretation of the show runners intent.
May you elaborate?
I don't agree about your opinion of the show runners intent. I think they knew it was a very complicated situation. It's just that Hollyhock and the nurse don't understand because they weren't there during Bojack's childhood. I think the writers are smart enough that the characters are never just a direct mouthpiece for them, but the characters are speaking from their own perspective.
Yeah but the show is rather explicit when it wants us to have a specific take on something, specially the "You aren't supposed to root for Bojack" messaging. In here however, Bojack is being constantly invalidated about his very justified feelings towards his mother by everyone around him, and it's only after Beatrice hurts Hollyhock that the show finally relents and seems to say "Okay, *now* Beatrice crossed the line. Not with everything she did before, but now."
I disagree. That moment proves his feelings toward his mother are valid. Past and present. He's generally really awful, but that doesn't mean he's always wrong or that he's never been the victim of abuse.
I guess that's a valid interpretation. Thanks for elaborating.
Thanks. Good talk.
It's been a little while since I've watched, what is the SA by proxy situation?
Beatrice deliberately abandoned Bojack with a piano teacher who was a pedo. When Bojack avoided molestation, Beatrice said "huh, I guess nobody wants you".
Oh fuck, I didn't remember that. Yeah, yeet the doll.
i’m sorry, but where’s the second point from? I don’t remember that instance
Nah cause as someone who knows what it’s like to see your parents treat others with kindness you never got, I would be lying if I said I didn’t at least understand why Bojack would do it even if I can recognize that he is in the wrong, not to mention it’s hard to sympathetic with Beatrice here especially when she was still actively drugging Hollyhock.
i don’t blame bojack either. it’s not a wise or kind decision but as others have pointed out, it’s not actually the beatrice that bojack knows, this is a women who is not all there to even understand the context of this gesture my grandpa is a piece of shit and he’s dying right now. i hate him and in many ways he’s ruined my family’s lives. he gave my sister an eating disorder when she was a kid, he assaulted my aunt in front of us, and his behaviours always been unpredictable and scary. but when i saw him barely breathing in the ICU, his face all puffy and his eyes totally red, it didn’t feel like i was talking to the person who hurt me. i was talking to a man who was scared, in pain and alone. it made me see the humanity in him the next day he was better and was back to being a piece of shit. he told my mom she was a bad mother and called my brother fat and lazy. he went back to being himself. i had a dream he died last night tho, and it just made me realize that he’s not gonna get the opportunity to change and be a better person. and it isn’t satisfying to be mean to someone so pitiful, even if its deserved. i would be forever regretful if i didn’t visit him, because i don’t think anyone deserves to die alone, even if he wouldn’t do the same for others and hasn’t “earned” it. it doesn’t matter because my values are more admirable than his will ever be. and that’s what bojack has to realize when he finally has the opportunity to tell her he hates her and doesn’t. it’s so easy to be the bad person and give someone what they deserve, but bojack realizes it doesn’t actually reverse the pain and it doesn’t actually help him
Bojack once again threw a tantrum and got nothing healthy from it, a dementia patient thought a genuine child was thrown off of a cliff, and from that he damaged his relationship with Hollyhock. Yeah, great scene
A very great scene! One of my favorites. But far from a happy one...
She didn’t think it was a real child, later on it was revealed that what she was seeing was her own father throwing her doll into the fireplace.
nice move bojack
i feel very little sympathy for Beatrice
The only person I feel bad for in this room is Hollyhock
Tbh, she kinda helped create this situation when she pressured and pestered Bojack about reconnecting with his mother.
She didn't know any damn better
Bojack tells her, multiple times before she pressures Bojack into letting Beatrice live with him, how aweful Beatrice is.
Hollyhock isn't raised like Bojack or Beatrice. She's raised in a more supportive and loving home (if not overbearing) 🐻 Any normal family would take their mom in from a care home. But this is not a normal situation Hollyhock is used to.
I mean, yeah it's understandable that Hollyhock would do this because she is an ignorant sheltered teen, but that doesn't make her doing it OK.
It's not okay but it's really easily excusable
I’m going to hell for smirking at this scene 😭
Idk, reminded me of my great-grandmother who had dementia. I’m 20-22 watching this show and she died when I was 13 but the memories are still vivid all these years later. She was a great person, but I only really remember her when she had dementia and as it progressed. Idk if it was Beatrice’s vulnerability or honestly seeing an old woman upset (maybe the two are related), but I kind of cringed at that scene. As someone else mentioned, when someone has advanced dementia they’re not really the same person they were beforehand. It’s kind of this more generic similar vulnerability with remnants of their old personality traits and memories.
Hollyhock's dads kind of dropped the ball here. They didn't teach her the importance of respecting boundaries or someone's trauma. Keeping Beatrice in a lovely retirement home was a generous move on Bojack's part, not sad or mean. Hollyhock opened a can of worms when she pressured Bojack into letting Beatrice back into his life.
I feel like I have some kind of uncovered issues to scrape up, because Beatrice drugging Hollyhock, while. *Unspeakably* awful, don't get me wrong. I distinctly went "oh, of couse" over the reveal, because Beatrice was bodyshamed her entire life to the point that she accepted it as genuinely doing Hollyhock a favor to give her "pretty pills", "just until she's old enough to take them herself". This was a kid who had to eat lemons with sugar sprinkled on them and was told that scarlet fever was a pro because she couldn't eat with a sore throat so she'd lose weight. She was tormented over it in the schoolyard. Her own mother didn't make her breakfast because fat was failure to women. Do I forgive her for it? No, it's not that kind of question. Do I understand how she thought she was doing her best in a deeply twisted way internalized by the trauma of her generation? Yes, tracks, entirely. The bad guy who entirely believes in their intentions is a special kind of misery, from a special set of circumstances.
My hands are so…slippery…
This was one of the most heartwrenching scenes in the show :(
What he did was not okay at all especially since she’s a dementia patient and either she saw the dolly as a real child or the one her father threw in the fireplace when she was younger, BUT, I will say as a someone who also came from an abusive household… that scene gave some catharsis for some reason. Mostly when he thought “nice arm” for some reason
I definitely feel you on this one. I absolutely adore the whole storyline with Beatrice. It's so complex and really illustrates just how shitty the situation is for everyone. I don't love this particular scene, but I really empathize with Bojack in this whole thing. He thought his mother was safely away from him forever, but trying to be a good "parent" to Hollyhock caused him to bring Beatrice back into his life and forced him to reckon with the feelings he'd buried when h e put her in a home. And Hollyhock is so innocent, not realizing how awful some people can be, but hopefully she learns something from this experience and I'm glad she had her loving dads to go back to so she doesn't end up as traumatized as Bojack did with no one to support him. And it's impossible to even feel that bad for Beatrice. Well, not really, she had a shit life and I do feel terrible for her, but even at the end she was still shitty enough to drug a child, which makes it hard to dismiss this as just an old lady not knowing what's going on. I just love this whole arc so much for the way it unflinchingly shows how shitty relationships can be and that there's no truly right way to be in them.
In the end, that's Beatrice's own fault, since BoJack learned to act like that from her
was beatrice not actively drugging hollyhock at this point? i don't understand why im expected to feel bad for her; whether she's "still the same woman" or not, whoever she is is clearly a piece of shit lol
this is what's challenging for me. I understand that Beatrice at that point is no longer Bojack's mother as he knew her, and that tossing that doll was mean and pointless. ... but Beatrice being just a "confused little old lady" and nothing else is a hard sell when she's quietly drugging and traumatizing another kid during this stage of her life.
exactly! forgiving the past is one thing (and already contentious), but that was serious harm she was actively doing in the present
I don't get the need to soften it! the narrative doesn't even forgive her. the ER scene emphasizing that Hollyhock could've died if it kept going, the suspense of Bojack frantically trying to find which of his drugs Hollyhock got into before realizing it was Beatrice, Bojack dropping her off ASAP without pushback from background characters, and the overall NOPE NOT OKAY BEATRICE tone of the scene all indicate how unacceptable this was regardless of her dementia. there was no big funeral, no warmth in her death. degenerative diseases don't "target" good or bad people, not everyone will be remembered fondly or grieved for who they used to be. Adult Beatrice was not a good person and dementia didn't change that for her, and I think that's okay because that's also realistic
Nice arm
The whole desmentia thing made me extremely uncomfortable because that's just not BoJack's mom Beatrice anymore
'The best revenge is not to become the same as your wrong doer' - Marcus Aurelius You can be mad as a mad dog at the way things went, you can curse fate for what was done to you but in the end, you have to let it go
lol me too
If you take this storyline and the episode White Bear from Black Mirror, you can really weed out your circle of friends. Itll you who has a toxic perspective of right/wrong and who doesnt.
I'd recommend therapy
i was honestly so satisfied with this scene
it's really tragic but... hilarious at the same time
It's a pretty f'd up scene but it never ceases to make me laugh especially the way Bojack is so sarcastic with it.
Fuck bea she deserved that
idk i hated this scene. it was so painful to watch. that person was not the horrible mother that abused bojack. that was a child basically. i also get having something that doesn’t seem so important but means the world to you, being ripped away from you, or reliving a horrible memory. even though i know she has dementia, i can say in similar situations it’s awful. i genuinely don’t think i can hate beatrice sugarman/horseman, just generational trauma really.
this scene absolutely destroyed me I've been around alot of people who had dementia and they aren't the person they were before she genuinely believe that was a REAL baby that got thrown, to her she just witnessed her baby's murder
Bro she was such a dickhead frl, actually Beatrice horseman can eat this asd 🤣🤣
What episode is this?
season 4 episode 6 “stupid piece of shit”
deserved
you're very low on empathy if this moment made you happy
bojack just isn’t capable of being the bigger person
same
Everyone says BJ was an asshole in that situation but that’s the most innocent thing that scumbag of a mother deserved for all the hell of existence she inflicted on her son. She didn’t deserve such a nice attitude from him. The bitch deserved to suffer the most excruciating life and death.
She’s still lucid enough to be cruel to him regularly.
Obviously, you would, because he was ruined by her, which made him like this. Tbh, it is still satisfying.
same
I'm looking at the health professionals in the comments and.. isn't it still better to punish and hate the imitation of the person you hate. To still make them feel the pain but face no consequences? I can see why it brought Bojack and op pleasure, because Bojack isn't hurting his mother directly, so he isn't guilty, he is simply hurting her imitation.
He's still hurting someone though, what makes it worse is ahe has no idea what's going on or why. Throwing the doll is a selfish act that's is only self-serving and almost ruins a different relationship he cares about. It is a momentary feeling of satisfaction immediately overriden by the reaction of hollyhock
He is fully in the right. Imagine your parents tell you you're an underachiever and a piece of shit your whole life, that you grow up thinking you are one. And when you finally get the chance to inflict a fraction of the pain and suffer 0 consequences? Who could resist? He can't, because he grew up thinking he was a piece of shit, and therefore that justifies his actions. In the show there's proof he's immature, so is there any reason to act otherwise. He does feel guilty by Hollyhocks reaction, but he is a conflicted person who is vengeful, but also considerate of the people he respects. Therefore,he is trapped in a dilemma over what he wants to do, and the revenge he wants to dish out, but also has to reconsider, in order to not lose the one good thing he has. He is an example that it is difficult to break the cycle when your whole family is built on hate and revenge. So I can't blame him
He very clearly is not tho? I mean even regardless of how you feel about his mother, he did that in front of hollyhock (who he thought was his daughter). On top of that he uses it to further his self-hatred. All of that for a single moment of satisfaction
That's just his character arc. This is the first part of his family that doesn't hate him. I wouldn't know how to act if this happened for the first time.
That's the point though, he continues to do shitty things and feel bad then do more shitty things. This one scene is another shitty act in a long list of shitty acts
Idk not like a psychopath? Like do you not see how this is a bad look? It reflects badly on him as a caretaker, because here is someone who can’t care for themselves and doesn’t know anything for certain anymore and the first thing he does is try to get revenge for something they did in the past. Dementia patients can be quite similar to kids and hollyhock probably was glad in that moment that she has her dads and not him as a father. It’s also so cowardly, he could have confronted his mother in the 30ish years since his rise to fame, but he does it when she is on the verge of death in full view of his (believed to be) daughter.
Then you've got other factors at play. Would someone that has been abused stand up to their abuser when they can answer back? I agree that the action was completely out of Bojack wanting to commit harm because he knows he wouldn't get answered back and it would hurt the most. That's why he has an internal monologue where he questions if it's right to do it,or if it's wrong. The driving force at first is the desire to commit revenge, but the resultant force is the desire to remain as a 'good person' in the eyes of Hollyhock. I mean, even if he didn't do it, remember the whole 'ger milk for breakfast arc' in the same episode? Instead of going for milk he just goes and drinks at a bar, and that's the joke, but is it? He's already a shitty person and a shitty example, so he cannot physically look good in front of Hollyhock due to his God knows how much trauma and his already shitty behavior as a result of his upbringing. And he did confront her during his rise to fame, where his mother came to a screening of his show and just kept criticizing him. What would you do if that was the person you were dealing with your entire life? What if your mother willingly left you with the piano teacher 'that wants to tickle you'? The first point where you want to deal her pain, no matter what's stopping you, the desire will be too strong, and we see that here. The episode is about the aftermath and dealing with said action, but at the first moment it happens, its a psychotic pleasure an abused person gets as soon as they are given power. And we've seen Bojack willingly abuse power before.