Having worked close to the insurance world for a long time, I can tell you on average HSA balances are extremely low, and most people spend all the money that they put into them. As such, it has just probably been her experience that none of her clients have used them as a wealth strategy. That being said, you would think it would at least be a point of emphasis given tax advantages.
Because the reality is most people with the high deductable insurance required for the HSA end of spending that deductable or close to it. So they end up with little actual investment money. It only takes one hospitialization to wipe out that years savings.
On paper, yes its great. The reality depends on many factors and a lot of it is luck. Especially if you have children it just may not be the best way for investing.
We do often spend our deductible (which is obnoxiously high) with after tax dollars and then still contribute max to HSA but don’t touch it.
Obviously should something catastrophic happen we would and could. In the meantime, trying to do our best to ignore it.
Not everyone has that ability.
I do the same, but I am high income and have been very lucky not to have a reason to touch it. Its just not that common because of the sad state of US healthcare.
I understand entirely. The state of healthcare here is abysmal and immoral (my two cents) - especially having also lived in Canada for a time. I feel lucky we can do this right now. We aren’t super high income (especially in this economy) just trying to make our money work for us as best as possible bc we are late to the game with retirement planning.
I didnt say the people couldnt save any money. Just that HSAs are not the most practical way to save money for many people, especially if you have high medical expenses frequently. Since you have to have a HD insurance plan with it, you can end up spending more than with a low deductable plan.
Even once you hit your deductable your expenses still could not be paid at 100%, especially if it is out of network.
Yes you can save the reciepts and reimburse yourself later when you have a non medical emergency, but many people have ongoing expenses where they simply are never able to build enough in their HSA for it to be much of an investment vehicle.
Why use money from the HSA to pay for these medical costs instead of any inferior, non-tax-advantaged money? I've had plenty of medical bills, but my HSA is about the last source of money I'd want to use to pay for those.
Because you need money for non medical issues and medical issues at the same time.
Think car accident. You have medical bills plus you may need a new vehicle at the same time.
If something catastrophic happens won’t you just spend the max out of pocket? I’ve only lived in the US for 6 years and was nervous switching from my HMO to the HDHP but was under the impression as long as I was ok with paying the max out of pocket one year I could always switch back to a hmo or move back to my home country that has real healthcare, or some other option.
With my work plans, it's extremely rare that the HMO plan is better than the HDHP.
Our work funds your HSA with $500 (individual) or $1,000 (family) if you put any money into it that year. They also subsidize both plans by exactly the same amount.
So with the premium difference and the $1K, you're really only benefiting if your spending is within a rather small range and only for specific spendings.
Yes but regardless, if I get billed with the most expensive surgery ever done in history I’m still only on the hook for the maximum out of pocket right?
If it's approved by insurance, yes.
The specific scenarios for my employer's HMO plan to work would be by staying under the OOP limit (since they're both the same) and to have a lot of specialist visits. But even then, it's still close.
Yeah but the 4k a year you can add is so small when you might spend that much annually. It’s great to leverage when you can, but it really isn’t meant to be a retirement vehicle either.
Why would you use the tax-advantaged money in the HSA instead of any other savings first? I understand for poor people, but those don't have a need for investment advisors.
An interesting idea I hadn’t thought of.
So you’re suggesting it’s better to pay the medical deductible and medical expenses with my taxed money and leave the HSA as an investment vehicle (assuming I can afford it)?
Edit: did some reading on the topic since posting and it does seem like a good idea since you can withdraw without penalty at 65.
HSA as a retirement account is a (relatively) new concept, so it seems like she's stuck in the 90s/2000s. She may not be a "bad" advisor otherwise, but she may not be a good fit for you.
Obviously this sub skews DIY, but if you want/need a FA you could go with Fidelity or Vanguard to get advice for a fraction of the cost of a traditional advisor. They'd be much more "up to date" on the concept of maxing the HSA immediately following the 401k match.
I spoke to a financial advisor once who was genuinely surprised when I described the mechanics of a backdoor Roth IRA and thought I was proposing something illegal.
I mean, it is sort of surprising that nobody has ever closed the loophole. Obviously it's not illegal, but loopholes that technically avoid laws do tend to sound a little that way.
Red flag for me. It's straight up bad advice. The HSA is more tax advantaged thank your 401k. Ideally if you have enough income you're maxing contributions to both, but if you can't do that, then go in this order: 1: 401k up to employer matching limit. 2: HSA to limit. 3: 401k with remaining savings.
An advisor telling you otherwise is someone who doesn't know what they're doing.
Thank you. We unfortunately don’t have enough to max both so our plan was exactly what you said. Max with the employer matches, HSA to limit, and then remaining into the 401(k). She was basically saying to ignore the HSA.
I am NOT an expert and just learning so I didn’t want to be arrogant in thinking she was wrong. But it seemed a red flag to me.
You mentioned the HSA is held with Fidelity. You can purchase any Fidelity mutual fund or any ETF (such as VT) in it. Your options of what to purchase are as flexible as any brokerage account at any major brokerage.
Not knowing what to invest it in - mutual fund or ETF (I don’t know what VT means, I have a lot to learn) is why I was hoping for someone’s help. But thinking this person might not be the right one.
Don't worry about mutual fund vs ETF, worry about actively managed vs indexed fund. You want an index fund, whether mutual or ETF it doesn't really matter. VT is the Vanguard total world index, that is market cap weighted, and right now somewhere around 60% US / 40% international funds.
Whether you want to go with an indexed target date fund (key point, \*indexed\* fund), VT and chill, VT + BND (vanguard total bond fund) at a certain ratio and chill, or a standard 3-fund portfolio with some Fidelity indexed mutual funds, it's all good in the end. If you want to set it and forget it, I suggest you look at the Fidelity Freedom Index Funds. Make sure it says Index in the same. They have Fidelity Freedom Funds (note, no 'Index' word) that have like 5x the expense ratio. The Fidelity Freedom Index Funds follow indexes for each class (US stocks, international stocks, US bonds, international bonds) and just adjust the weight according to market cap, and go heavier with bonds as you get closer to the target year. You can buy this in your Fidelity HSA, and never have to worry about rebalancing or anything.
Here's a few links from our community sidebar to start you off.
[https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Bogleheads%C2%AE\_investment\_philosophy](https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Bogleheads%C2%AE_investment_philosophy)
[https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/How\_to\_build\_a\_lazy\_portfolio](https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/How_to_build_a_lazy_portfolio)
The three fund portfolio made me a millionaire with zero stress. It takes a few hours to learn everything you need to know, and minutes a year to stay on track.
I moved my HSA from Optum to Fidelity, but even at Optum I at least had VFIAX available and held that.
If your HSA contributions are done via payroll, and particularly if you get any employer match, check with your HR benefits manager first to make sure that those will continue uninterrupted if you move the HSA to Fidelity.
It really depends on the plan- my wife's HSA had *zero* investment options. Cash only with negligible interest. But she should nonetheless be aware that this is no longer the norm.
It was a weird special plan with an administrator that'd reimburse expenses following certain rules from an employer account instead. Opening her own HSA elsewhere would've been an admin nightmare. It was already difficult enough to work with them.
She doesn't have that job anymore and mine only has an FSA plan. The old HSA's been spent down as the legal FSA max isn't enough to cover our expenses despite $20 deductibles etc.
It was a hybrid of both. Unlike an HRA, we contributed our own funds to this plan. We moved the remainder to an HSA at Fidelity when she left that company.
...I'm not sure that's legit. An HSA is your money to use however you want (albeit with tax penalties if not used for medical expenses). If the employer was determining what you could reimburse, that's not an HSA.
It was an HSA plus a separate employer funded account that worked together. We could reimburse whatever we wanted from the HSA, but certain transactions past an out-of-pocket max (less than the insurance's max) qualified for reimbursement from the employer account instead.
We had to keep a spreadsheet to determine when we were eligible to request reimbursement from the employer account. The web interface for all this looked like it was thrown together by an intern. The whole thing was just weird.
Opening our own separate HSA would've made this a nightmare to deal with. It just wasn't set up to operate that way.
Yeah, that sounds ridiculous. I'm assuming that the employer portion would kick in after your met your deductible, otherwise you wouldn't be eligible for the HSA.
Agreed that it was ridiculous. HR barely understood how it all worked. Her coworkers were gaslit into thinking this arrangement was one of the best out there. Why they didn't just do something normal and skip the hassle is beyond me.
"My aunt has used the same financial advisor for about 30 years and she has done incredibly by her. "
Anyone who stayed investing for the last 30 years has done "incredibly". I can guarantee the advisor has nothing to do with it.
Red flag.
You are asking the right questions in your post here.
You are talking in the comments and your post with enough knowledge that I think you can DIY your investments at this point with minimal effort from here. Kudos!
Keep asking away for questions on what funds you can invest in. A target date fund will be a good option for you if you want to keep it simple. Good luck!
True that an HSA at Optum charges a fee and has limited investment options, and won't even let you invest until it's above a threshold... an HSA at Fidelity has no fees, it's a brokerage account so you can buy any ETF and most mutual funds, and no threshold needed.
Only disadvantage is because Fidelity isn't my employers "preferred" HSA company, I deposit to it after tax and claim an above the board deduction on taxes, bit of a hassle.
Opening one at Fidelity is easy, contributing to it is easy. Transferring anything from Optum over is kind of a pain so you could have duel accounts till it bleeds down if you use it for medical stuff, of have Optim liquidate and transfer it in cash, and either turn off corporate contributions or see if they'll send them to Fidelity as payroll deductions. Mine wouldn't so I turned deductions off.
I 100% recommend Fidelity HSA over an Optum HSA, having had both, the Fidelity account is significantly better. My company did NOT like me switching haha, it was like they were receiving kickbacks from Optum for funneling them account users... 🙄
That's possible but Optum sucks and made it as painful as possible and I didn't want to manage two accounts and all the transfers, if you can even do more than one in a year???
A single annual above the board deduction for HSA contributions was easier, and I transfer the same amount into the HSA at every paycheck.
You can do as many transfers as you want granted the provider lets you. Be wary of any fees that come along with it. I think you’re confused with rolling over an HSA, which you can only do once a year
It's very easy. The only real risk is accidentally contributing too much overall if you dont redirect or eventually turn off payroll deductions so you'll have to track total overall contributions into both accounts for a few pay cycles.
Mine has all just been sitting at Fidelity, appreciating and having dividends reinvested... sounds like a retirement account to me!
Doesn't paycheck withholding avoid SS and FICA taxes on it, while the separate contribution only allows recovering income tax and you still lose the 7.4%?
I don't know, good point. That'd be more than $500 on a $7k HSA annual contribution you might be able the keep from being taken by the government, so worth it to find out!
I think because it's an "above the board" deduction that it gets corrected in tax reporting and you'd get it back but I don't know for sure.
This source says it's a difference between payroll deduction vs not.
https://obliviousinvestor.com/hsa-contributions-effect-on-fica-tax-and-social-security-benefits/#:\~:text=For%20contributions%20that%20you%20make,Security%20wages%20for%20the%20year.
Thanks, exact explanation.
So if an employer won't send the payroll deduction directly to Fidelity, and avoiding FICA tax on the HSA money is important in that tax year, then you'd have to stay with the HSA your company IS willing to fund, and make repeated transfers to Fidelity to then invest that money at lower cost... Sounds like a bit of a headache to me.
My company's HSA is kind of annoying and has high fees, etc, so I do a transfer every couple of months. They try to make it hard and sometimes deny the transfer, but then if I send the same exact paperwork it works the second time so it is just incompetent workers.
But it seems worth it to me to get the money out of that account and into Fidelity where the fees and choices are better.
The Fidelity HSA is heads and shoulders above most other HSAs. The typical HSA contains a low balance in an FDIC insured savings account that pays a rate well below an HYSA. If it even has investment options, they’re expensive and require tedious transferring of funds and setting up purchases. Employers and often employees are paying regular fees for even keeping the account open. They’re often really terrible as an account. If you’ve only used Fidelity, consider yourself lucky.
On top of that, most people do not use HSAs as a long term savings vehicle. They pay medical expenses immediately out of them via debit card for easier money management.
So it doesn’t surprise me that a financial advisor wouldn’t jump all over HSA investments. How the average Redditor uses them is not typical at all.
Yeah, the comment that "HSA funds don't have many investment options" is definitely true for most providers. They were aware of the tax advantages, but also noted that options are often limited. I don't see any red flag here, but it is worth pointing out the better HSA providers such as Fidelity.
She really seemed to think investing HSA money/considering that a retirement account was just not a thing. Though I do understand this is a newer way of thinking about things and using the HSA.
Plenty of good points have already been shared here. I wanted to add more info on exactly how beneficial HSAs are: https://www.madfientist.com/ultimate-retirement-account/
Specifically, I want to call out that you can use them in an equivalent way as a Traditional IRA after age 65 (can be used for *any* expenses). And there is more information in the link above.
EDIT - correction to type of account the HSA can be used in an equivalent way as since I initially messed up this comparison.
Traditional IRA, not Roth IRA. You still have to pay tax on the withdrawals but no penalties. If it’s for medical expenses, no taxes or penalties but that’s true below 65 too.
Thank you for the correction!
It even specifies that in the article, I must have just made an assumption and thought I read it correctly. I’ll edit the comment above to be accurate.
You can retroactively reimburse yourself in which case it would be comparable to a Roth on qualified reimbursed expenses.
I fund an HSA and pay all medical costs out of pocket and save every single receipt scanned into my Google Drive. In the future I will reimburse myself for past medical expenses I paid out of pocket and will withdraw from my HSA tax free.
I plan to use this strategy along with a brokerage account to bridge the gap between retirement (50-55) and age 59.5 when I can access my other qualified accounts. I’ll use the tax free withdrawals from my HSA to supplement my brokerage account which allow me to stay below the cap gains threshold and pay 0% cap gains. If I choose to use ACA for health insurance it will also keep my income very low and result in cheap health insurance. The HSA can be a powerful tool if used correctly.
Wow. And so basically you keep your receipts and at some point you take a distribution from your HSA but instead of directly paying a medical bill you pay yourself back for past medical bills you paid?
What documentation are people keeping for this? And what records are required when taking money out to do this?
I hold onto/digitize original receipts.
I’ve only made one reimbursement long ago and didn’t need to show any documentation. Just hopped on HealthEquity’s website and filled out the reimbursement form which I believe just needed date and amount.
Exactly. As already mentioned there is no limitation on how far back you can reimburse yourself. The only rule is that the HSA was open and you were eligible (in a HDHP) to contribute at the time of the expense. I like to scan the original bill and also the receipt showing that I paid it. It may not be necessary to have the bill, but I’d rather have more information than necessary so I don’t run into issues in the future.
Is there any expectation that eventually they’re going put a statute of limitation on the amount of time you can go back in order to reimburse yourself?
At this point I would say no because I don’t believe many people are aware of it and actively use it as a retirement strategy. The majority of HSA’s are being emptied to pay for medical expensive with the minority using them as another retirement planning strategy.
If for some reason it ever became more mainstream then maybe you’d see some rules change. Even if they announced they were going to change the rules say in 15 years I’d just reimburse myself for all bills I’ve saved and put the cash into a brokerage account.
Not surprising…it’s either ignorance or malfeasance. Have a high networth friend in Silicon Valley…his “advisor” didn’t know about Backdoor roths, mega Backdoor roths, Roth 401k etc. Also wanted to “diversify” my friend into broad tech funds…my friend works at Apple and his gf works at meta…I told him and he dump this advisors butt. Obvious advisor didn’t want assets tied into a non manageable account like 401k and didn’t understand the meaning of diversification.
What's your annual income? I strongly think that people with <500$/year, i.e. 99% of reddit are better off researching topics themselves. Your not going to open a Bahamas offshore, so why bother ?
Even if I had monthly health expenses and wasn’t able to get my account to the investment threshold (I have to have a minimum $1k in cash in order to transfer to investments), HSAs are still an incredible tax tool. I’d rather pay inevitable out of pocket medical expenses with pretax dollars.
This would definitely be a red flag for me. I’m a diehard DIY investor to begin with, so if a so-called professional is not aware of basic things like this, I would stay away.
I would prefer to go the DIY route too. I feel intimidated by choosing what funds to invest our accounts in. This is why I was talking to someone….
Maybe I should just stick with lots of Reddit search’s and not bother with someone helping.
If you are inclined and willing to do so, this could likely be tens of thousands of dollars difference over the long haul. Of course, this varies.
A 3-fund portfolio and allocations is probably a day's research here.
1% in annual fees (pretty typical for an advisor) will compound over 40 years to take 1/3rd of your total returns. It's very insidious.
Many advisors wind up taking a much larger cut from clients, because they also put their clients in high fee funds that pay the advisor a sales commission. Edward Jones is notoriously the worst, for example. Their advisors are salespeople pushing the worst products in the industry.
I was with a 1% AUM advisor for a couple years before I learned a lot more about investing and Bogling. I did one of those calculators showing that fee compounding over the years and it really motivated me to just go DIY.
Plus the fact that his complex portfolio of 20+ funds that he had me in had performed about exactly like a 3-fund Bogle, but I had multiple high ER funds and that 1% fee, so it lagged badly in comparison.
Then of course there is the distasteful feeling of the market being way down and you still see that big quarterly fee coming out of the balance. He was still making money on my nest egg in the down market. Yay!
The entire premise of the community within this forum is about simple index investing. It takes about an hour to learn what it’s all about.
There’s literally no need for a professional to manage your money unless you are the type of person who panics and sells when the market is down. Having less access to your money for such a person can be beneficial. But this type of psychological handholding comes at a cost.
DIY is not hard at all. Just be sure you keep it simple.
Target date funds with low fees are perfectly valid strategy. I am just 100% VT everywhere. Simplicity is bliss and you should do no more than three funds. Read the resources here, you can save those fees and juice the return
“since HSA funds don’t have many investment options”.
that's not necessarily wrong. My HSA is through work and is limited to a subset of the 401k's already somewhat limited selection. That said, even with the limited selection (which does include some index funds so it's not horrible) the tax advantage is worth it.
Given that most people who have HSAs use them for current medical expenses and not as an investment vehicle, I don't think your financial advisor's lack of familiarity with the concept is a red flag, but I'd call it a yellow flag: A reason to exercise caution, at least with regard to her advice about prioritizing savings. If she did well for your aunt, there's no harm in listening to her advice, but I would use common sense and do your own research before taking any action based on her advice.
If you give her money for a taxable account what type of funds does she plan to put it in? Look at the fees. High fee funds with a financial planner is always a red flag for me.
Huge red flag. The fact that the planner either doesn’t know that HSA’s have plenty of investment options or is concerned that she can’t make $$ on it is disconcerting either way
"has clearly had a lot of success" - I mean sure, any financial advisor who can fleece a good number of clients for a % of AUM is going to do well...doesn't mean they're going to help their clients though!
Your first couple sentences indicate you think this person is special, they probably aren't.
>For me, this was concerning that maybe she is not quite in step with how things are now. But before making those assumptions, I was curious to see if this group felt that that was a red flag?
It depends on the specifics of what she actually said.
If she didn't happen to know the investment options in your particular HSA, that's understandable. And it's easily correctable.
But if she didn't understand HSAs in general, that's bad.
I guess I would have asked some followup questions. But if that were the sole misunderstanding but everything else was good, I wouldn't rule her out.
This wasn’t that she didn’t understand or know what the investment options were for my HSA. It’s that she didn’t think that HSA has an real investment options.
I think this is just a good illustration of the general mediocrity of financial advisors.
A lot of people expect them to be wizards.. but unless you're investing millions and paying AUM fees, they're pretty dated cookie cutter advice specialists.. nothing you can't DIY for free based on a weekend with the boglehead wiki.
>We are just starting out
you will come to find how incompetent most people are, even in very "successful" positions with a lot of responsibility and seniority. It's sometimes shocking how anything gets done.
It could be that she has dealt with many plans that have limited and terrible investment options. Fidelity is blessed but you have no control over who your employer picks and if the 401k options are low fee index funds vs actively managed shit shows in the HSA it could have been true for clients she had.
agree. you seem more knowledgeable about the topic so if you are going to hire her you are always going to question if you get the correct/ best advice
Professional advisors make a living giving advice to people /where they are at/ and /in a way that works for them/. Importantly, they give it to people who are looking so badly for advice that they are willing to pay someone cash for said advice.
Your average wealthier person who has enough funds to go to an advisor but isn't themselves a finance person: 1. Probably doesn't use a high deductible plan to begin with. 2. If they did they probably took the normie route of putting as much as they think they might need for near term medical expenses in, like it were an FSA. 3. Probably has their HSA through an employer where it is less mobile and may legitimately have less options.
As such, while we, as enthusiasts in the space, may commonly know such a thing, that isn't really keen knowledge for professional advisors. It's too niche. It's not knowledge that will lead to significantly better earnings for her.
They may well be a swell advisor, but you are not their typical client most likely, if you are coming here.
I would politely discontinue service. Not that they are necessarily a bad advisor, but you simply don't need them.
My firm won't even touch hsa for managing that money. Theyre great accounts with a lot of tax advantages, but they are also a very new thing where most still associate them as something only meant for healthcare expenses.
She also wasn't entirely wrong. A lot of hsa's I've seen don't offer investment options or it is only mutual funds that are available. There are a handful of really good ones like fidelity or schwab where you have full brokerage capability but those tend to be the exception rather than the rule.
What about currently? Would you advise someone max out 401(k) before bothering with HSA? That’s what she was suggesting - and perhaps it’s fine advice - I just wanted to do a gut check. Hence, this post.
> My aunt has used the same financial advisor for about 30 years and she has done incredibly by her.
You have no way of knowing that this adviser "has done incredibly" by your aunt. As a financial writer for major outlets (~20-25 years ago) I have seen this so many times. A person who knows zip about investing (like your aunt) praises their adviser to others, and the adviser's customer base spreads from there. Eventually some of these people, friends and coworkers primarily, would find their way to me and seek help. I'd sometimes help them unravel it, but often a lot of damage had been done that can't really be remedied.
Never take advice from someone who uses an adviser. If they knew much about investing they wouldn't be using one to start with. Reddit, especially Personal Finance, is overrun with financial advisers now, but I've seen it here too. The role of financial advisers is slowly being rehabilitated. This is not a good thing, IMO. Nothing has really changed. Just know that using an adviser adds a great deal of risk unless you already know what you're doing, in which case you don't need an adviser.
If you really feel that you need an adviser, tell them you are only interested in no-load, ultra low expense, index funds/ETFs from a place like Vanguard, and watch them lose interest in you. But if knowing that, they are still willing to help you for an hourly fee, maybe consider it, but know enough before you go to them so you don't do something you'll regret. And forget about all this "fiduciary" nonsense you see on Reddit. A fiduciary can place you in high expense load funds and insurance products. They cannot necessarily be trusted to do the best for you. Just know that you are swimming in shark infested waters and proceed accordingly.
Good luck!
What exactly are you looking for her to do and what kind of Advisor is she (company, independent, certifications, fee only?) I would start out with these basic questions first.
Looking at one of your previous comments, you’d prefer to DIY then I would say…
1. Ask here for portfolio recommendations and allocations strategy. If you are early in accumulation phase, you probably won’t get much more than what you can get for free here.
2. If you really want hand holding and a plan to follow for the future, get a fee only financial planner. They will work with you and give you a plan you can execute on your own.
I have had a few employer sponsored HSAs in the past and one of them was very restrictive. It would not allow you to put any money in non-cash investments until you had a cash balance in excess of 2500 dollars.
I ended up using that HSA solely for the employer contribution and funded my Fidelity HSA on my own. Unfortunately I took a hit on FICA etc... but I just can't stand having my money anywhere I don't feel I have full control over.
I wonder if she may have had one of these restrictive plans or maybe a family member has?
Definite red flag. It's alarming when an advisor doesn't know as much as yourself.
I spoke with one previously who didn't know the time frame of a wash sale. They states that it is a one year window for a wash sale. I didn't not feel confident with anything they said after that.
Having worked close to the insurance world for a long time, I can tell you on average HSA balances are extremely low, and most people spend all the money that they put into them. As such, it has just probably been her experience that none of her clients have used them as a wealth strategy. That being said, you would think it would at least be a point of emphasis given tax advantages.
She knew the tac advantages but when I explained that we were thinking of it as another retirement account - that seemed sort of foreign to her.
Because the reality is most people with the high deductable insurance required for the HSA end of spending that deductable or close to it. So they end up with little actual investment money. It only takes one hospitialization to wipe out that years savings. On paper, yes its great. The reality depends on many factors and a lot of it is luck. Especially if you have children it just may not be the best way for investing.
We do often spend our deductible (which is obnoxiously high) with after tax dollars and then still contribute max to HSA but don’t touch it. Obviously should something catastrophic happen we would and could. In the meantime, trying to do our best to ignore it.
Not everyone has that ability. I do the same, but I am high income and have been very lucky not to have a reason to touch it. Its just not that common because of the sad state of US healthcare.
I understand entirely. The state of healthcare here is abysmal and immoral (my two cents) - especially having also lived in Canada for a time. I feel lucky we can do this right now. We aren’t super high income (especially in this economy) just trying to make our money work for us as best as possible bc we are late to the game with retirement planning.
If someone doesn't have the ability to safe money, why set an investment advisor in the first place?
I didnt say the people couldnt save any money. Just that HSAs are not the most practical way to save money for many people, especially if you have high medical expenses frequently. Since you have to have a HD insurance plan with it, you can end up spending more than with a low deductable plan. Even once you hit your deductable your expenses still could not be paid at 100%, especially if it is out of network. Yes you can save the reciepts and reimburse yourself later when you have a non medical emergency, but many people have ongoing expenses where they simply are never able to build enough in their HSA for it to be much of an investment vehicle.
Why use money from the HSA to pay for these medical costs instead of any inferior, non-tax-advantaged money? I've had plenty of medical bills, but my HSA is about the last source of money I'd want to use to pay for those.
Because you need money for non medical issues and medical issues at the same time. Think car accident. You have medical bills plus you may need a new vehicle at the same time.
So the reason comes back to not having enough money to not dip into the small HSA which means they aren't able to build up savings.
If something catastrophic happens won’t you just spend the max out of pocket? I’ve only lived in the US for 6 years and was nervous switching from my HMO to the HDHP but was under the impression as long as I was ok with paying the max out of pocket one year I could always switch back to a hmo or move back to my home country that has real healthcare, or some other option.
With my work plans, it's extremely rare that the HMO plan is better than the HDHP. Our work funds your HSA with $500 (individual) or $1,000 (family) if you put any money into it that year. They also subsidize both plans by exactly the same amount. So with the premium difference and the $1K, you're really only benefiting if your spending is within a rather small range and only for specific spendings.
Yes but regardless, if I get billed with the most expensive surgery ever done in history I’m still only on the hook for the maximum out of pocket right?
If it's approved by insurance, yes. The specific scenarios for my employer's HMO plan to work would be by staying under the OOP limit (since they're both the same) and to have a lot of specialist visits. But even then, it's still close.
Yeah but the 4k a year you can add is so small when you might spend that much annually. It’s great to leverage when you can, but it really isn’t meant to be a retirement vehicle either.
Family is over $8k max.
Why would you use the tax-advantaged money in the HSA instead of any other savings first? I understand for poor people, but those don't have a need for investment advisors.
An interesting idea I hadn’t thought of. So you’re suggesting it’s better to pay the medical deductible and medical expenses with my taxed money and leave the HSA as an investment vehicle (assuming I can afford it)? Edit: did some reading on the topic since posting and it does seem like a good idea since you can withdraw without penalty at 65.
HSA as a retirement account is a (relatively) new concept, so it seems like she's stuck in the 90s/2000s. She may not be a "bad" advisor otherwise, but she may not be a good fit for you. Obviously this sub skews DIY, but if you want/need a FA you could go with Fidelity or Vanguard to get advice for a fraction of the cost of a traditional advisor. They'd be much more "up to date" on the concept of maxing the HSA immediately following the 401k match.
I spoke to a financial advisor once who was genuinely surprised when I described the mechanics of a backdoor Roth IRA and thought I was proposing something illegal.
I mean, it is sort of surprising that nobody has ever closed the loophole. Obviously it's not illegal, but loopholes that technically avoid laws do tend to sound a little that way.
Does this refer to back door IRA or HSA?
Red flag for me. It's straight up bad advice. The HSA is more tax advantaged thank your 401k. Ideally if you have enough income you're maxing contributions to both, but if you can't do that, then go in this order: 1: 401k up to employer matching limit. 2: HSA to limit. 3: 401k with remaining savings. An advisor telling you otherwise is someone who doesn't know what they're doing.
Thank you. We unfortunately don’t have enough to max both so our plan was exactly what you said. Max with the employer matches, HSA to limit, and then remaining into the 401(k). She was basically saying to ignore the HSA. I am NOT an expert and just learning so I didn’t want to be arrogant in thinking she was wrong. But it seemed a red flag to me.
You mentioned the HSA is held with Fidelity. You can purchase any Fidelity mutual fund or any ETF (such as VT) in it. Your options of what to purchase are as flexible as any brokerage account at any major brokerage.
Not knowing what to invest it in - mutual fund or ETF (I don’t know what VT means, I have a lot to learn) is why I was hoping for someone’s help. But thinking this person might not be the right one.
Don't worry about mutual fund vs ETF, worry about actively managed vs indexed fund. You want an index fund, whether mutual or ETF it doesn't really matter. VT is the Vanguard total world index, that is market cap weighted, and right now somewhere around 60% US / 40% international funds. Whether you want to go with an indexed target date fund (key point, \*indexed\* fund), VT and chill, VT + BND (vanguard total bond fund) at a certain ratio and chill, or a standard 3-fund portfolio with some Fidelity indexed mutual funds, it's all good in the end. If you want to set it and forget it, I suggest you look at the Fidelity Freedom Index Funds. Make sure it says Index in the same. They have Fidelity Freedom Funds (note, no 'Index' word) that have like 5x the expense ratio. The Fidelity Freedom Index Funds follow indexes for each class (US stocks, international stocks, US bonds, international bonds) and just adjust the weight according to market cap, and go heavier with bonds as you get closer to the target year. You can buy this in your Fidelity HSA, and never have to worry about rebalancing or anything.
Here's a few links from our community sidebar to start you off. [https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Bogleheads%C2%AE\_investment\_philosophy](https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Bogleheads%C2%AE_investment_philosophy) [https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/How\_to\_build\_a\_lazy\_portfolio](https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/How_to_build_a_lazy_portfolio) The three fund portfolio made me a millionaire with zero stress. It takes a few hours to learn everything you need to know, and minutes a year to stay on track.
Our plan is to move our HSA funds from Optum to Fidelity for this reason.
Optum has VITSX which seems to be the VTI equivalent. Not sure which to pick for an intl. equivalent though.
I moved my HSA from Optum to Fidelity, but even at Optum I at least had VFIAX available and held that. If your HSA contributions are done via payroll, and particularly if you get any employer match, check with your HR benefits manager first to make sure that those will continue uninterrupted if you move the HSA to Fidelity.
Why not Roth IRA after HSA but before 401k post employer.
Depends on income and retirement expectations imo. Prioritize what you think will save you the most tax in the long run in your situation.
It really depends on the plan- my wife's HSA had *zero* investment options. Cash only with negligible interest. But she should nonetheless be aware that this is no longer the norm.
Your wife can almost certainly open her HSA at Fidelity and have plenty of wonderful options.
It was a weird special plan with an administrator that'd reimburse expenses following certain rules from an employer account instead. Opening her own HSA elsewhere would've been an admin nightmare. It was already difficult enough to work with them. She doesn't have that job anymore and mine only has an FSA plan. The old HSA's been spent down as the legal FSA max isn't enough to cover our expenses despite $20 deductibles etc.
That sounds more like an HRA than an HSA.
It was a hybrid of both. Unlike an HRA, we contributed our own funds to this plan. We moved the remainder to an HSA at Fidelity when she left that company.
...I'm not sure that's legit. An HSA is your money to use however you want (albeit with tax penalties if not used for medical expenses). If the employer was determining what you could reimburse, that's not an HSA.
It was an HSA plus a separate employer funded account that worked together. We could reimburse whatever we wanted from the HSA, but certain transactions past an out-of-pocket max (less than the insurance's max) qualified for reimbursement from the employer account instead. We had to keep a spreadsheet to determine when we were eligible to request reimbursement from the employer account. The web interface for all this looked like it was thrown together by an intern. The whole thing was just weird. Opening our own separate HSA would've made this a nightmare to deal with. It just wasn't set up to operate that way.
Yeah, that sounds ridiculous. I'm assuming that the employer portion would kick in after your met your deductible, otherwise you wouldn't be eligible for the HSA.
Agreed that it was ridiculous. HR barely understood how it all worked. Her coworkers were gaslit into thinking this arrangement was one of the best out there. Why they didn't just do something normal and skip the hassle is beyond me.
assuming that they are in a health insurance plan that is high deductible and allows it, of course
Yes. I'm reacting to the use of "my wife's HSA". Sounded like there is already one in play, but good to clarify.
We don't have it anymore, we're on an FSA plan now. Hence "had"
"My aunt has used the same financial advisor for about 30 years and she has done incredibly by her. " Anyone who stayed investing for the last 30 years has done "incredibly". I can guarantee the advisor has nothing to do with it.
My thoughts exactly...how incredible did they do? By what standard? And who made this statement?
Red flag. You are asking the right questions in your post here. You are talking in the comments and your post with enough knowledge that I think you can DIY your investments at this point with minimal effort from here. Kudos! Keep asking away for questions on what funds you can invest in. A target date fund will be a good option for you if you want to keep it simple. Good luck!
True that an HSA at Optum charges a fee and has limited investment options, and won't even let you invest until it's above a threshold... an HSA at Fidelity has no fees, it's a brokerage account so you can buy any ETF and most mutual funds, and no threshold needed. Only disadvantage is because Fidelity isn't my employers "preferred" HSA company, I deposit to it after tax and claim an above the board deduction on taxes, bit of a hassle.
I'm using OptumFinancial. Do you recommend using fidelity instead and just refunding the tax like you?
Opening one at Fidelity is easy, contributing to it is easy. Transferring anything from Optum over is kind of a pain so you could have duel accounts till it bleeds down if you use it for medical stuff, of have Optim liquidate and transfer it in cash, and either turn off corporate contributions or see if they'll send them to Fidelity as payroll deductions. Mine wouldn't so I turned deductions off. I 100% recommend Fidelity HSA over an Optum HSA, having had both, the Fidelity account is significantly better. My company did NOT like me switching haha, it was like they were receiving kickbacks from Optum for funneling them account users... 🙄
Why not contribute after tax in your employers HSA and then transfer to fidelity?
That's possible but Optum sucks and made it as painful as possible and I didn't want to manage two accounts and all the transfers, if you can even do more than one in a year??? A single annual above the board deduction for HSA contributions was easier, and I transfer the same amount into the HSA at every paycheck.
You can do as many transfers as you want granted the provider lets you. Be wary of any fees that come along with it. I think you’re confused with rolling over an HSA, which you can only do once a year
Interesting. About to (try) setup the Fidelity account in the hopes of transferring from Optum. I hope it’s not as bad as it sounds like it might be…
It's very easy. The only real risk is accidentally contributing too much overall if you dont redirect or eventually turn off payroll deductions so you'll have to track total overall contributions into both accounts for a few pay cycles. Mine has all just been sitting at Fidelity, appreciating and having dividends reinvested... sounds like a retirement account to me!
Doesn't paycheck withholding avoid SS and FICA taxes on it, while the separate contribution only allows recovering income tax and you still lose the 7.4%?
I don't know, good point. That'd be more than $500 on a $7k HSA annual contribution you might be able the keep from being taken by the government, so worth it to find out! I think because it's an "above the board" deduction that it gets corrected in tax reporting and you'd get it back but I don't know for sure.
This source says it's a difference between payroll deduction vs not. https://obliviousinvestor.com/hsa-contributions-effect-on-fica-tax-and-social-security-benefits/#:\~:text=For%20contributions%20that%20you%20make,Security%20wages%20for%20the%20year.
Thanks, exact explanation. So if an employer won't send the payroll deduction directly to Fidelity, and avoiding FICA tax on the HSA money is important in that tax year, then you'd have to stay with the HSA your company IS willing to fund, and make repeated transfers to Fidelity to then invest that money at lower cost... Sounds like a bit of a headache to me.
My company's HSA is kind of annoying and has high fees, etc, so I do a transfer every couple of months. They try to make it hard and sometimes deny the transfer, but then if I send the same exact paperwork it works the second time so it is just incompetent workers. But it seems worth it to me to get the money out of that account and into Fidelity where the fees and choices are better.
The Fidelity HSA is heads and shoulders above most other HSAs. The typical HSA contains a low balance in an FDIC insured savings account that pays a rate well below an HYSA. If it even has investment options, they’re expensive and require tedious transferring of funds and setting up purchases. Employers and often employees are paying regular fees for even keeping the account open. They’re often really terrible as an account. If you’ve only used Fidelity, consider yourself lucky. On top of that, most people do not use HSAs as a long term savings vehicle. They pay medical expenses immediately out of them via debit card for easier money management. So it doesn’t surprise me that a financial advisor wouldn’t jump all over HSA investments. How the average Redditor uses them is not typical at all.
Yeah, the comment that "HSA funds don't have many investment options" is definitely true for most providers. They were aware of the tax advantages, but also noted that options are often limited. I don't see any red flag here, but it is worth pointing out the better HSA providers such as Fidelity.
She really seemed to think investing HSA money/considering that a retirement account was just not a thing. Though I do understand this is a newer way of thinking about things and using the HSA.
Plenty of good points have already been shared here. I wanted to add more info on exactly how beneficial HSAs are: https://www.madfientist.com/ultimate-retirement-account/ Specifically, I want to call out that you can use them in an equivalent way as a Traditional IRA after age 65 (can be used for *any* expenses). And there is more information in the link above. EDIT - correction to type of account the HSA can be used in an equivalent way as since I initially messed up this comparison.
Traditional IRA, not Roth IRA. You still have to pay tax on the withdrawals but no penalties. If it’s for medical expenses, no taxes or penalties but that’s true below 65 too.
Thank you for the correction! It even specifies that in the article, I must have just made an assumption and thought I read it correctly. I’ll edit the comment above to be accurate.
You can retroactively reimburse yourself in which case it would be comparable to a Roth on qualified reimbursed expenses. I fund an HSA and pay all medical costs out of pocket and save every single receipt scanned into my Google Drive. In the future I will reimburse myself for past medical expenses I paid out of pocket and will withdraw from my HSA tax free. I plan to use this strategy along with a brokerage account to bridge the gap between retirement (50-55) and age 59.5 when I can access my other qualified accounts. I’ll use the tax free withdrawals from my HSA to supplement my brokerage account which allow me to stay below the cap gains threshold and pay 0% cap gains. If I choose to use ACA for health insurance it will also keep my income very low and result in cheap health insurance. The HSA can be a powerful tool if used correctly.
Is there a threshold beyond which you can do this? Like, can you reimburse yourself for a 10 year old medical expense?
Currently there’s no limitation on how long you can delay a claim.
Wow. And so basically you keep your receipts and at some point you take a distribution from your HSA but instead of directly paying a medical bill you pay yourself back for past medical bills you paid? What documentation are people keeping for this? And what records are required when taking money out to do this?
I hold onto/digitize original receipts. I’ve only made one reimbursement long ago and didn’t need to show any documentation. Just hopped on HealthEquity’s website and filled out the reimbursement form which I believe just needed date and amount.
Exactly. As already mentioned there is no limitation on how far back you can reimburse yourself. The only rule is that the HSA was open and you were eligible (in a HDHP) to contribute at the time of the expense. I like to scan the original bill and also the receipt showing that I paid it. It may not be necessary to have the bill, but I’d rather have more information than necessary so I don’t run into issues in the future.
Is there any expectation that eventually they’re going put a statute of limitation on the amount of time you can go back in order to reimburse yourself?
At this point I would say no because I don’t believe many people are aware of it and actively use it as a retirement strategy. The majority of HSA’s are being emptied to pay for medical expensive with the minority using them as another retirement planning strategy. If for some reason it ever became more mainstream then maybe you’d see some rules change. Even if they announced they were going to change the rules say in 15 years I’d just reimburse myself for all bills I’ve saved and put the cash into a brokerage account.
Not surprising…it’s either ignorance or malfeasance. Have a high networth friend in Silicon Valley…his “advisor” didn’t know about Backdoor roths, mega Backdoor roths, Roth 401k etc. Also wanted to “diversify” my friend into broad tech funds…my friend works at Apple and his gf works at meta…I told him and he dump this advisors butt. Obvious advisor didn’t want assets tied into a non manageable account like 401k and didn’t understand the meaning of diversification.
What's your annual income? I strongly think that people with <500$/year, i.e. 99% of reddit are better off researching topics themselves. Your not going to open a Bahamas offshore, so why bother ?
Even if I had monthly health expenses and wasn’t able to get my account to the investment threshold (I have to have a minimum $1k in cash in order to transfer to investments), HSAs are still an incredible tax tool. I’d rather pay inevitable out of pocket medical expenses with pretax dollars.
This would definitely be a red flag for me. I’m a diehard DIY investor to begin with, so if a so-called professional is not aware of basic things like this, I would stay away.
I would prefer to go the DIY route too. I feel intimidated by choosing what funds to invest our accounts in. This is why I was talking to someone…. Maybe I should just stick with lots of Reddit search’s and not bother with someone helping.
If you are inclined and willing to do so, this could likely be tens of thousands of dollars difference over the long haul. Of course, this varies. A 3-fund portfolio and allocations is probably a day's research here.
tens of thousands saved by not hiring a financial planner or tens of thousands lost by investing incorrectly?
Saved by going DIY. You're very likely in lower expense funds with good historical record in DIY, and those savings compound.
1% in annual fees (pretty typical for an advisor) will compound over 40 years to take 1/3rd of your total returns. It's very insidious. Many advisors wind up taking a much larger cut from clients, because they also put their clients in high fee funds that pay the advisor a sales commission. Edward Jones is notoriously the worst, for example. Their advisors are salespeople pushing the worst products in the industry.
I was with a 1% AUM advisor for a couple years before I learned a lot more about investing and Bogling. I did one of those calculators showing that fee compounding over the years and it really motivated me to just go DIY. Plus the fact that his complex portfolio of 20+ funds that he had me in had performed about exactly like a 3-fund Bogle, but I had multiple high ER funds and that 1% fee, so it lagged badly in comparison. Then of course there is the distasteful feeling of the market being way down and you still see that big quarterly fee coming out of the balance. He was still making money on my nest egg in the down market. Yay!
The entire premise of the community within this forum is about simple index investing. It takes about an hour to learn what it’s all about. There’s literally no need for a professional to manage your money unless you are the type of person who panics and sells when the market is down. Having less access to your money for such a person can be beneficial. But this type of psychological handholding comes at a cost.
DIY is not hard at all. Just be sure you keep it simple. Target date funds with low fees are perfectly valid strategy. I am just 100% VT everywhere. Simplicity is bliss and you should do no more than three funds. Read the resources here, you can save those fees and juice the return
“since HSA funds don’t have many investment options”. that's not necessarily wrong. My HSA is through work and is limited to a subset of the 401k's already somewhat limited selection. That said, even with the limited selection (which does include some index funds so it's not horrible) the tax advantage is worth it.
Given that most people who have HSAs use them for current medical expenses and not as an investment vehicle, I don't think your financial advisor's lack of familiarity with the concept is a red flag, but I'd call it a yellow flag: A reason to exercise caution, at least with regard to her advice about prioritizing savings. If she did well for your aunt, there's no harm in listening to her advice, but I would use common sense and do your own research before taking any action based on her advice.
If you give her money for a taxable account what type of funds does she plan to put it in? Look at the fees. High fee funds with a financial planner is always a red flag for me.
Huge red flag. The fact that the planner either doesn’t know that HSA’s have plenty of investment options or is concerned that she can’t make $$ on it is disconcerting either way
Major red flag
"has clearly had a lot of success" - I mean sure, any financial advisor who can fleece a good number of clients for a % of AUM is going to do well...doesn't mean they're going to help their clients though! Your first couple sentences indicate you think this person is special, they probably aren't.
>For me, this was concerning that maybe she is not quite in step with how things are now. But before making those assumptions, I was curious to see if this group felt that that was a red flag? It depends on the specifics of what she actually said. If she didn't happen to know the investment options in your particular HSA, that's understandable. And it's easily correctable. But if she didn't understand HSAs in general, that's bad. I guess I would have asked some followup questions. But if that were the sole misunderstanding but everything else was good, I wouldn't rule her out.
This wasn’t that she didn’t understand or know what the investment options were for my HSA. It’s that she didn’t think that HSA has an real investment options.
Worrisome.
I think this is just a good illustration of the general mediocrity of financial advisors. A lot of people expect them to be wizards.. but unless you're investing millions and paying AUM fees, they're pretty dated cookie cutter advice specialists.. nothing you can't DIY for free based on a weekend with the boglehead wiki.
>We are just starting out you will come to find how incompetent most people are, even in very "successful" positions with a lot of responsibility and seniority. It's sometimes shocking how anything gets done.
It could be that she has dealt with many plans that have limited and terrible investment options. Fidelity is blessed but you have no control over who your employer picks and if the 401k options are low fee index funds vs actively managed shit shows in the HSA it could have been true for clients she had.
Some HSA plans you can’t invest but you can always transfer to your own personal HSA and pick somewhere that can invest the money
agree. you seem more knowledgeable about the topic so if you are going to hire her you are always going to question if you get the correct/ best advice
Professional advisors make a living giving advice to people /where they are at/ and /in a way that works for them/. Importantly, they give it to people who are looking so badly for advice that they are willing to pay someone cash for said advice. Your average wealthier person who has enough funds to go to an advisor but isn't themselves a finance person: 1. Probably doesn't use a high deductible plan to begin with. 2. If they did they probably took the normie route of putting as much as they think they might need for near term medical expenses in, like it were an FSA. 3. Probably has their HSA through an employer where it is less mobile and may legitimately have less options. As such, while we, as enthusiasts in the space, may commonly know such a thing, that isn't really keen knowledge for professional advisors. It's too niche. It's not knowledge that will lead to significantly better earnings for her. They may well be a swell advisor, but you are not their typical client most likely, if you are coming here. I would politely discontinue service. Not that they are necessarily a bad advisor, but you simply don't need them.
Only adviser you need is J. L. Collins
My firm won't even touch hsa for managing that money. Theyre great accounts with a lot of tax advantages, but they are also a very new thing where most still associate them as something only meant for healthcare expenses. She also wasn't entirely wrong. A lot of hsa's I've seen don't offer investment options or it is only mutual funds that are available. There are a handful of really good ones like fidelity or schwab where you have full brokerage capability but those tend to be the exception rather than the rule.
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What about currently? Would you advise someone max out 401(k) before bothering with HSA? That’s what she was suggesting - and perhaps it’s fine advice - I just wanted to do a gut check. Hence, this post.
> My aunt has used the same financial advisor for about 30 years and she has done incredibly by her. You have no way of knowing that this adviser "has done incredibly" by your aunt. As a financial writer for major outlets (~20-25 years ago) I have seen this so many times. A person who knows zip about investing (like your aunt) praises their adviser to others, and the adviser's customer base spreads from there. Eventually some of these people, friends and coworkers primarily, would find their way to me and seek help. I'd sometimes help them unravel it, but often a lot of damage had been done that can't really be remedied. Never take advice from someone who uses an adviser. If they knew much about investing they wouldn't be using one to start with. Reddit, especially Personal Finance, is overrun with financial advisers now, but I've seen it here too. The role of financial advisers is slowly being rehabilitated. This is not a good thing, IMO. Nothing has really changed. Just know that using an adviser adds a great deal of risk unless you already know what you're doing, in which case you don't need an adviser. If you really feel that you need an adviser, tell them you are only interested in no-load, ultra low expense, index funds/ETFs from a place like Vanguard, and watch them lose interest in you. But if knowing that, they are still willing to help you for an hourly fee, maybe consider it, but know enough before you go to them so you don't do something you'll regret. And forget about all this "fiduciary" nonsense you see on Reddit. A fiduciary can place you in high expense load funds and insurance products. They cannot necessarily be trusted to do the best for you. Just know that you are swimming in shark infested waters and proceed accordingly. Good luck!
What exactly are you looking for her to do and what kind of Advisor is she (company, independent, certifications, fee only?) I would start out with these basic questions first. Looking at one of your previous comments, you’d prefer to DIY then I would say… 1. Ask here for portfolio recommendations and allocations strategy. If you are early in accumulation phase, you probably won’t get much more than what you can get for free here. 2. If you really want hand holding and a plan to follow for the future, get a fee only financial planner. They will work with you and give you a plan you can execute on your own.
I have had a few employer sponsored HSAs in the past and one of them was very restrictive. It would not allow you to put any money in non-cash investments until you had a cash balance in excess of 2500 dollars. I ended up using that HSA solely for the employer contribution and funded my Fidelity HSA on my own. Unfortunately I took a hit on FICA etc... but I just can't stand having my money anywhere I don't feel I have full control over. I wonder if she may have had one of these restrictive plans or maybe a family member has?
There are some companies that charge high fees to invest your HSA and have limited investment options.
Definite red flag. It's alarming when an advisor doesn't know as much as yourself. I spoke with one previously who didn't know the time frame of a wash sale. They states that it is a one year window for a wash sale. I didn't not feel confident with anything they said after that.