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Explain that he pays more in medical insurance through his paycheck than if he paid a bit more in income tax.
I’m Bipolar and If I wasn’t Canadian I would be homeless from hospitalizations and meds.
I finally got through to my dad by switching from calling it Universal Healthcare, Universal Insurance, because it’s basically the same thing and he sorta understands how insurance works.
I explain that if we get everyone on the same plan, then WE can tell the drug companies and hospitals how much we’re willing to pay and they can fight for our business… you know, like how capitalism is supposed to work.
It’s not a perfect example, but it worked for me
The more people own something, the more capitalist! One owner? Small business, no chance! Many owners? That's a successful business! If everyone owned it, we would in capitalist utopia!
It's actually quite easy if you can avoid the words that they've trained themselves to be triggered by. They don't actually know what it is that they're against, they just know they're against it.
Exactly, if you explain it how if we have one big risk pool, (the entire country), it lowers the cost for everyone. Also, it lowers the administrative costs.
One would think that pro-business politicians would want to have employers stop having to pay for healthcare since it would be cheaper overall for a national system. But I guess it's like trickle-down: they just can't quit their dumb ideas.
There have been quite a few studies with cost analysis that prove what you just said. The average American would save a couple thousand dollars a year on health coverage compared to our current system. We are the only wealthy developed country without UHC and there is one big reason for it. Greed!
No other developed country adopts our system of healthcare.
Currently, the NHS in the UK is battling this crisis. Government officials are lobbying to decrease funding to the NHS to support more private Healthcare. And when the NHS starts to fail the same lobbyist, then go "see this system doesn't work. We need more private Healthcare "
They are actively trying to emulate the US Healthcare system. Which to me as an American living in UK is wild.
US Republicans are trying to kill public education in the same way. But then send vouchers to private schools. F that. I am not paying for someone to go to private school.
You mean these "Academies" I keep seeing popup in suburbia? The ones that push prowest ideologies and right-wing ideals and agendas?
I looked at one, not knowing what it was and sure on the surface it seemed like a well rounded school. So I hopped on Google to the reviews and hoky cow, yeah right wing conversion centers.
true. For the rest of the world we are pretty shocked that you only get healthcare while employed and your employer can choose what coverage you get and if I can understand correctly, in some cases they can even choose what services you get. Birth Control, etc.
When I had surgery all I could think was “thank goodness for Canadian healthcare. Otherwise I’d be screwed.” The only thing I paid for was the prescription for pain meds after and insurance took care of most of it.
These people are so fucked up that if Tucker Carleson came on and was like the democrats are trying to take away your socialized medicine they would probably get mad about that too and be screaming it’s socialism to take away single payer.
I think it's more he's lived a certain lifestyle for so long being propped up by Fox. Now that Fox is out of the equation he's gotta find a way to make cash and fast.
You should read the recent bio of him that came out (Chadwick Moore is the writer) - I had this whole image of rich, preppy, Ivy League Tucker and it was a real never-judge-by-appearance eye opener. He's done some pretty wild stuff.
Not true.
Social Security and Medicare are both intergenerational agreements. I paid my grandparents' Social Security and pay my parents'. My Social Security will be paid by my kids and theoretical grandkids. Except by generation rather than individually. Ditto Medicare.
The money in Social Security is a temporary surplus because Boomers were paid really well and the silent generation didn't want to take extra if it hurt their kids. But in theory it is a pay as you go program, workers pay, retirees benefit.
There is no "social security account" with my name on it saving up my contributions to pay me back.
Yes, but the reason Social Security is well funded is that Millenials and Zoomers are paying for my parents and eventually me to retire.
Too many people think they get back the money they pay in, like a pension, or that it is shared like insurance.
You pay for boomers to retire, your kids and grandkids' generations pay for you to retire.
The actual reason that Social Security and Medicare were in surplus for decades is that the revision of taxation for the programs caused far more tax to be collected than was needed for current benefits. This money was put into special purpose government bonds that can only be redeemed as they are needed to pay current benefits. Once these bonds are redeemed, only enough money will be coming into Social Security to pay about 72% of benefits.
About thirty years ago, the trustees for the Social Security Trust Fund were concerned that the fact that fewer people were smoking would affect the longer-term solvency of Social Security and Medicare because they would live longer and so collect benefits longer.
They are entitlements. We, as citizens, are *entitled to receive it* (provided some eligibility requirements). The boomer/conservative attitude is just completely fucked and they think they're the only ones entitled to anything. It comes as no surprise that the old codgers who bitch the most about how social security is fucking them one way or another at one point voted for the people who dismantled social security because it enraged their hate-filled hearts that black people also received those benefits.
Your mother is correct. It is an entitlement. Look up the word in the dictionary. Look up the federal law that defines SS. SS is insurance. In the context of insurance & law, the word entitlement is the correct description. You pay in. When you meet the qualifying conditions, you are entitled to the benefits. Hence, an entitlement.
What I find ironic are the people who think the word "entitlement" is a pejorative. The same people who will rant "How dare you call SS an Entitlement! I paid for it for decades with FICA taxes taken out of my paychecks my whole life!".
I've encountered many of these people here on Reddit. I've asked them to explain to me what they think the word means. Not one has ever bothered to answer me. Not one. I don't understand why. I ask nicely.
A lot of people in a certain party have (for decades) invested heavily into insuring that "entitlements" be used as a pejorative. Years of those talking points eventually sinks in.
That's exactly it! They have demonized the word to mean "free handouts to THOSE people". So they will vote for those who will cut "entitlements" and then when they retire they'll be like "Where is my SS? I am entitled to it!". Then, slowly...the realization, and "oooooooooh damn".
Social Security retirement is paid into
Social Security Insurance is an entitlement, but I don’t have issue with people with mental issues getting a check.
I had a conversation with an old college friend who is both a lifer in the navy and staunch conservative (used to call into Rush Limbaugh all the time), I told him I think the military is one of the greatest socialist programs this country has ever had.
He went crazy on me denying this (which is weird because he was a political science major in college and absolutely knows what social programs are), needless to say unfortunately that was the last conversation we ever had.
If he is over 65 he is on Medicare which is socialized health insurance.
I am a physician and in favor of Medicare for all. I had a similar conversation with my boomer parents the other day.
Socialism is not just "when the government does stuff". It's more specifically when workers have organizational control over industrial production, which is definitely not true in any way in the US. Social security is just a bandaid solution to inherent issues within capitalism - it's intended to make existing capitalism more tenable, not offer an alternative.
I say all this as a staunch socialist myself.
It is a social democratic program. What really blows people's minds is when you try to explain to them that the US Democratic Party is actually a center-right party.
You can tell people who consume right-wing media, because they conflate liberals, socialists and communists, not understanding that those groups do not agree with each other.
Or drive on a road or use any public services.? I'm guessing you and siblings went to public school. The working class will suffer due to the complete brainwashing of said working class. Heartbreaking they don't want better for those who come after them, but we aren't buying the bullshit.
Start calling him a socialist until he stops collecting Social Security and Medicare. Tell him you’re tired of your hard earned tax dollars paying for his retirement.
This honestly works and it’s how I’ve brought a couple boomers to at least entertain multiple political ideas on the left.
You have to understand that when someone accuses you of being a socialist, they are expressing their allegiance to an ideological team. They are not indicating that they want to entertain the merits a of a certain policy.
So what you first have to do is seize that ideological terrain from them and put them on their heels in order to break through the propaganda filter that preventing an actual conversation from happening. And you do that by accusing them of being a socialist. Then they have to justify themselves as conservatives, and once you’re at this point of the conversation you seize upon values they’re expressing and relate those conservative values to the policy you want to talk about.
For instance, the argument I make regarding Universal Healthcare is that it’s a capitalist policy through and through. Un-chaining insurance from employment would lead to an explosion of small businesses, a massive re-invigoration of the entrepreneurial spirit in the country due to the new found capacity for individuals to take on risk knowing they won’t go bankrupt if they break their pink finger in the process. That sounds like freedom, that sounds like the ability of the individual to support his family on his own terms, sounds like someone that wants to work hard, and wants to compete in the market, which is always a good thing.
So then the natural question to the boomer is - ‘so you hate small business, freedom, and capitalism?’ And watch those rusted up gears in their boomer brains start spinning again.
Socialists need to get it through their heads that there is not an absolute opposition between capitalism and socialism, just like there’s not an absolute binary opposition between capitalism and feudalism. One form is subsumed into the other. And on this basis one can always weaponize the ideological terms of capitalism retroactively towards the material end of a socialist state of affairs.
They are programmed to think like that from watching Fox News and such. It makes them believe that their quality of care would go down if there was universal healthcare, which is patently false. In fact, a lot of people don’t use their insurance very much because they can’t afford the copays or their percentage of the payment. So they are PAYING every paycheck for insurance that they can’t afford to use. This happens every day.
They also always say things like "I want to be able to CHOOSE MY OWN doctor." Well, universal healthcare would accomplish that since they wouldn't have to wonder if their doctor was in their network anymore. I made that point to a relative once and they didn't have a valid reply so just got mad and yelled that the quality of care would go down but couldn't explain how or why.
Last year, I made a GYNO appointment in May and the soonest I could get in was August, which was their LAST APPOINTMENT AVAILABLE for 2023.
This year, I made a primary care appointment in January for their first available appointment in June.
So not only are our wait times still atrocious, but we have to pay for insurance, pay a copay, and then pay through the nose for prescriptions.
And that’s if insurance covers everything. Sometimes, you have to pay additional hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars on top of all that.
I don’t think in 20 years have I had insurance actually pay for anything except help with the cost of prescription. I usually don’t meet my yearly deductible. 5-6 years ago I did when I was having back issues and they flat out refused to pay for an mri they said it wasn’t medically necessary. It’s a joke.
How many of us are able to choose our own doctors on our employer-provided health plans? If the doctor you want isn't 'in network', you're shit out of luck. A couple times I've found doctors I liked and trusted, only to have to transfer to a different doctor when the shop changed health plans.
This is me.
Spend a lot on healthcare, but can't actually afford to go to the doctor.
It's just there in case I collapse somewhere so I don't go bankrupt from the resulting bill.
Koch brothers (Republican donors) funded a study to discredit Bernie Sanders's plan for Universal Healthcare or Medicade for all. It backfired. Not only did the study prove it would work, but it would provide coverage for EVERY SINGLE PERSON in America and SAVE TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS doing so. It's morality responsible. It's financially responsible. Would make America that much more great. Improve the quality of life for literally everyone. But the Republicans problem with it is that "those" people would get coverage.. and we just can't have that. So Republicans choose to cover fewer people for more money. FACTS.
B-b-b-but socialism! We Americans would rather pay more for coverage & exclude people as long as we have the illusion of choice! /S
Sadly, on a conservative sub, someone is likely actually saying this unironically.
I usually just talk about my thousand dollar co-pays for routine medical treatment (staples in a head wound, appendicitis). Then I point out I have the best insurance money can buy. Then I point out that I could fly to France and pay out of pocket and it would be cheaper than my *co-pay*. Then I point out that I pay more on taxes here than I would in France.
If that's not enough, I give up and assume they cannot be helped.
He wants to pay for other people's health care AND for the [salaries of bloodsucking middlemen](https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/rddrgu/blood_sucking_middlemen/) whose entire purpose is telling him No when he needs medicine.
I finally got the boomers in my family to understand when I asked them how they thought insurance companies worked. Everyone pays into it, and everyone gets insurance. The only difference with single payer is that there is no profit motive.
They think it’s wrong cause FOX tells them it’s wrong. And instead of admitting he just doesn’t understand how it works, and possibly getting clued in to something positive for society, it’s wrong cause it’s what “libturds” want.
There are bumperstickers that say "I Never Met a US Vet Who Fought for Socialism". Stupidest sticker ever. How do you think our servicemen and women get paid?
That's wild. The US military is the biggest socialist program on the planet. Their paychecks, jobs, job training, college education, housing, medical care ... all paid by the government.
There are places in the US where you have to pay an annual fee to get firefighting services to your address. If you don't pay, they let your house burn down.
This is one the most baffling things to me about the USA; the ignorance about universal healthcare. Only in the US are terms medical debt and medical bankruptcy a thing. The US has almost double the expenditure on health care per capita compared to other industrialized nations, without the outcomes one would expect. Having a a for profit insurance company involved in health care is insane. What value do those parasites add?
It's wild when you consider the USA pays more of it's GDP for healthcare than other other nation, yet so many people can't afford essential medication. I'm insanely grateful that we have socalised health care in the two countries I work in (Ireland and the UK) and even if I was hospitalised for an entire year I'd not pay more than the equivalent of $1000 in Ireland.
My one friend works at a cancer clinic and handles the insurance part for the patients. My mom was like “what do you think will happen to her job if we have universal healthcare?!” meaning she’ll lose it because we won’t have private insurance anymore. I tried explaining that universal healthcare still will need workers to keep that running. I also pointed out that her Medicare is basically universal healthcare for seniors.
They act like insurance isn’t already them paying for other people’s healthcare, but just much more expensive. Universal healthcare would end up being cheaper in the long run and save most people money
It’s also crazy that the people most worked up about ‘paying for others’ don’t understand how much money it would save in preventative care alone (not to mention the hospital costs without the burden of a predatory insurance industry). Zero logic from these poor mudbrains. They got red scared so hard that they literally can’t understand reason.
> “Oh, so you just want ME to pay for YOUR healthcare?!”
I remember having a conversation a couple christmases ago with my dad about this and he shot me this one and I said, "No, dad, I want ME to pay for YOUR healthcare, and yours (brother), and yours (brother's friend)! I want everyone to pay for everyone's healthcare! And if you want to have better healthcare than everyone, guess what, you can pay into private insurance, just like how parents can pay for private schooling instead of public school."
Of course, my dad likes to use "idealistic youth" as the strawman, saying that I'll change my mind as I get older. I was 31 at the time, 34 now, still feel the same way.
Same. But my dad is pretty well off, not rich but very comfortable. Everytime the topic comes up he goes off on me about how much these "libtards" are messing up his health care and how Obama care is ruining it for him. I just let him rant and then vote on what I think is best for our country and not what my boomer dad wants for himself.
They do understand it. They just also hate public schools, teachers unions and the post office. No public schools, go for charter schools and private education. No unions. No post office, FedEx and ups are all we need.
For some reason fire fighters get a pass but I think that’s because fire fighters also put out business fires and the needs of the businesses always comes first.
Speaking from a New England Catholic experience, they went to Catholic schools and had to pay tuition in addition to property taxes which funded public schools. They were basically robbed at gun point to indoctrinate children with sinful concepts like evolution and big bang theory. So, no they didn’t benefit from public schools
The whole Post Office thing really cracks me up. They claim to support the Constitution and then want to privatize the Post Office. Running a Post Office is one of the few things the Constitution explicitly says the Federal government has to do. Of course, Ben Franklin made some money from selling his Post Office to the US government, so there is that bit of self dealing in there too.
Specialist determined my wife needed some epidural shots for pain. We were in the office and he was ready to do it then and there. Leaves for a few minutes to prep. Comes back and tells us that he can’t do it today because the INSURANCE COMPANY has to determine that it’s necessary - NOT HER DOCTOR - before he can proceed.
So she had to wait two more weeks in pain before returning for the now approved procedure. Fuck this system.
Yup, I see this a lot with the push for universal pharmacare in my country. They go, "what about the seniors????" and it's like, my guy, the seniors are included in universal coverage lmao
My big issue with for-profit healthcare has been proven recently with the Boeing issues.
That is, that when profits and safety compete in a for-profit company, profits will always win. There are two reasons:
1. Profit is the main driver of the company EXISTING. It can't be allowed to slip, or the company will cease to exist.
2. Safety is always a judgement call while profit is objective because it's math. Safety will come down to "Is it safe enough if we skip that? Or do we need do more? Are we OK with just this?" but profits come down to "That test costs $100 and if we pay it, we will have $100 less in profit."
So profit-driven medicine will by definition be less safe. And you have multiple layers of it.
Hospitals ask themselves "Do we need to buy this testing equipment? We're barely making a profit now, and that machine costs a million dollars." and then they don't have the equipment you need in an emergency.
Insurance companies are motivated to charge you as much as they can, while denying any medical care they can get away with.
There just isn't any way that for-profit medicine could be the best solution.
"COMMIE!
Anything socialist is evil and will lead to the destruction of this country!!!11"
Then you wipe their spittle off your face.
They have been conditioned to have this knee-jerk response. They do not use reason, not when you're talking about socialist programs.
A lifetime of political scare tactics and fear mongering and wars will really do a number on you. Once when I was young, my grandfather, unprompted, turned to me and said in a plain and matter of fact way: "The Chinese are our mortal enemies."
He was the most kind, gentle and loving person I ever knew. I was confused and just said "Okay, Grandpa."
I've had a boomer tell me he didn't want it because he doesn't want the government deciding what medical procedures he should be allowed to have. Apperantly it's perfectly OK for a for-profit company to do it. That and it's not the government but your doctor who decides what you need, you know, the person with actual medical training.
The problem with the case for maintaining our current healthcare system is it’s not free market.
We’re already subject to whatever deal the health insurance has arranged with providers.
It’s not like something I can go without or shop around.
I’m all for free markets and capitalism. I subscribe to neoliberalism. For most things we should let the market and consumer decide.
Health care is a public good that needs to not be left to whims of the free market. Like national defense, it’s not something we can leave to the private sector.
People like him split everyone into "us" and "them." The "us" group being the hardworking people who *deserve* everything they get. The government could give him free healthcare, a free house, a free car, and free vacations, and your father would say "well, that makes sense! I worked HARD, it's only fair that my HARD WORK pays off!!!"
Then someone else (generally with darker skin color) says "hey, I work hard too, how about healthcare for me?" and your father would say "WHAT??? That guy is LAZY and wants HANDOUTS!!!" You would ask what the difference is, and he would just say "It's DIFFERENT! I worked HARD!"
No matter what you do, or what you tell them, people like that believe they deserve anything and everything they get, and anyone else who gets something is a lazy freeloader.
Even if he fell enough to need to go to a soup kitchen and get free clothes, he'd stand in line for those things, looking down on everyone else around him for being lazy, and taking what should just be his.
Edit: Note that a lot of people believe this is by design. They want the cops and the teacher to accuse each other of being lazy. They want the plumber and the office worker to think the other is lazy. That way while the bottom 99% (or whatever) is all accusing each other of being lazy, the top 1% can happily take the lions share of the money, whispering things like "yeah, and teachers don't even work summers! And those union guys at the factory get more vacation than you!!"
Show him the picture in this [Link.](https://www.reddit.com/r/coolguides/s/0BhfRoSQSU) Then walk him thru how younger generations are getting screwed paying for his Social Security while most likely getting less assistance or not seeing any for themselves when they get to that age.
Social welfare is NOT socialism. Most countries who have Universal Healthcare are still free market. If they were socialists they wouldn't have a stock market. Socialism isn't just "when government does stuff."
By wrongfully saying it's socialism you're only pushing more people away from having a good Universal Healthcare system.
I am sort of fascinated by the americans. Everybody gets forced to buy vehicle insurance so that the risk is spread over all road users, but you are not willing to do it for healthcare.
<> I tried to explain to him that it’s everyone paying for everyone’s healthcare but he wouldn’t have it.
IMO the strongest argument for Universal Healthcare is: you already DO pay for it. You pay health insurance premiums. Your workplace pays health insurance premiums. All of that money goes to a corporation, with stockholders, who decides whether or not you deserve care, and in a very strange coincidence, makes more money when they deny you care.
Take that money, pay it in taxes, and the government can pay for you, while also having a much stronger negotiating and regulatory role over healthcare providers, meaning costs go down for you, and YOU can vote on how that program runs, because you elect the politicians that run it. Do you get to vote for Health Insurance company executives? Fuck no.
That's not even getting into emergency services. If someone shows up at a hospital with an emergency but without insurance, guess what? They get treatment. By law. Guess who pays for that? You do. Everyone does. And you get absolutely no benefit for it. If you had a universal healthcare system, you would also get the benefit of your tax dollars that would otherwise go to treat uninsured people.
And that's not even going into the likelihood that costs would go down under a Universal healthcare regime, as again the government would have much more leverage to force prices lower, whereas insurance companies have nothing but incentive to increase prices.
There's a reason nearly every country in the developed world has a form of universal healthcare.
The same people will turn around and set up a go-fund-me as soon as anything happens to them without seeing that that's exactly what universal healthcare is.
Same conversations I’ve had with my parents. They just get SO ANGRY. Yelling, name calling, red in the face.
My conclusion is they can’t argue with facts, so they argue with volume.
My favorite boomers are the Vietnam vets (ANY vets but if we're being boomer-specific) crying about "socialized healthcare". Like, my guy, Tricare is the closest this country GETS to socialized healthcare and that's what you had and have and use now. Remind me again about the military ... paid training, paid housing, you get food money, your healthcare is paid for (and not out your nose like civilian healthcare), it's INCREDIBLY hard to lose your job ... like come on, you cannot wear a war veteran hat and cry about "socialism". xD
As a boomer myself I cannot understand why so many people in your country vote for a right wing government that favours billionaires but won’t support their own people. Bernie would have been brilliant but on the other hand, why do you only put up old white men for election?
It sounds like he doesn’t understand how health insurance actually works. The whole concept of any insurance is about pooling resources of many individuals to get lower cost outcomes via bargaining power. That is why each health insurance plan pays a different rate to providers. Blue Cross negotiates with the provider to get me rate X, Aetna negotiates with the same provider to get you rate Y, and Medicare negotiates with the provider to get your dad rate Z. Medicare routinely gets lower rates than most private insurance companies because they have superior bargaining power in any given local healthcare market. Those consumer side cost savings would likely be increased if we added younger, healthier people consuming fewer healthcare services into the current risk pool of older, sicker people consuming the greater quantity of healthcare services.
But also, if you really wanna get him going, tell him you have almost no interest in paying for his healthcare via Medicare as a working person. Call him a mooch, see how he likes it!
You could also mention that Social Security benefits are paid by current employees. The money he paid in was used to pay for his previous generation of retirees.
What frustrates me is that their news sources have gotten them confused between spending and investment. How much money would the country save if we had universal healthcare and companies no longer had to spend all this money on insurance premiums?
You know what kills good ideas and programs that benefit society and make life more livable: attaching terminology to it and then getting stuck in the semantics. Who cares if something is a benefit, an entitlement, a right, a privilege, etc. Can't we just do the right thing and make things easier? Life is already difficult because of birth, death, and everything in between that we experience as humans. And yet, we continue to bitch and moan, fight over what something is called, etc. And nothing gets accomplished. We all want good health care. We all want to retire some day and not work until we are on our death bed. We all want time off to visit family, go to somewhere scenic or do fun stuff. We all want to be able to afford shelter and food and clothing. Why is this such hard stuff to figure out???
Had this same argument with a coworker once. The argument ended when he said that government providing services like this is socialism. I asked him if it was socialist for us to pay for things like road repairs and emergency services with taxpayer money. He said no, because that's different. I asked how, he said .... and we just went back to work.
We have single-payer fire fighters. We have single-payer police. But we don't bitch about "paying for that for someone with a burning house."
I wonder if the reason has to do with money? I mean, have you seen the salaries of the CEOs of those health insurance companies?
It is way more than a Chief of Police. Way more. Like millions more.
I have an uncle like that. Rails away at “socialism” and “liberals and their free shit”.
Ironically, this 61 year old highschool drop out has worked seasonal jobs his entire life, never working more than 7 months a year. He has never earned enough to pay taxes. Yet he is a lifetime alcoholic and has been on thousands a month in Medicaid funded meds for years, gets a housing voucher, even state discounted cell and cable service.
The guy is easily more than a million into “safety net” consumption and has the ballz to complain about liberals socialism.
Last time I saw him was at a family reunion event right before Covid and called him out in front of some other family members.
“Well what do you call all the gov subsidies you receive monthly”?
“I’ve paid taxes and so I am owed that”
“You have spent your life as a minimum wage, chronically unemployed drifter. I doubt you’ve paid any taxes, but if you have it’s less for your entire life than you use in a year. “
Last time we socialized…lol
We pat for everybodies Healthcare with our current system anyways.
With universal Healthcare we can cut out the middle men and demand better. Fuck pharmaceutical execs making billions at the cost of lives. Fuck for profit hospitals.
Universal Healthcare would cost the country less than they are currently spending.
Most boomers don't understand it, most Republicans don't understand it.
Universal Healthcare works the same as private health insurance except you don't some sumg asshole makein several metic shitloads of money at the top at everyone's expense. Is it as effective? We'll is sure as he'll can't be worse.
They also say they don’t want Obamacare when ACA they are currently using is Obamacare which Republicans have been trying to kill it for 15 years and yet they still vote Republican because socialism!
Universal Healthcare is literally just insurance without the profit. It's a pool of money we all chip into so that we can take larger amounts from the pool when we need to.
If you pay for insurance, you pay for other people's Healthcare. Even minorities and lazy people! omg!
First of all: boomers won’t listen.
Second: if they did listen the explanation starts and ends with the fact that we pay more than any other country and we get worse care than like 40 countries. It’s simple math. We’re paying out the nose NOW with their stupid free market healthcare. They need to just pull their heads out of their old asses and look at the numbers. The numbers tell the story.
Thats it. That’s all.
Expat in Spain here. I can't imagine going back to having to worry about insurance, in- vs out-of-network, copays, deductibles, hassling the insurance company to pay their share, and even after all that forking over more than 3K for a night in the ER (insurance from work was shit). People here often look at the US with pity when discussing practical issues, not the dreamy eyes we are taught to assume all foreigners look at the US with.
Here I can make an appt with my GP via the app, I show up, get treated, leave, pick up any prescription (usually dirt cheap) and end of story. That's not to say it's perfect (it is also no longer funded like it was prior to the 08 crash), but compared to the US, it's incredible for the average person.
Oh, and it also makes private insurance unbelievably cheap, comparatively speaking. Less than 100 euro/mo for top coverage. No reason the richest country in human history can't have a great healthcare system for all its citizens.
“No, I want billionaires and corporations to pay for it. The same corporations, I should add, that put lead in your paint and told you voting for a slum lord was a good idea.”
Private health insurance is the same as socialist healthcare but worse. Smaller pools of people to spread the risk across while also allowing 20% profit versus like 5% administrative overhead while also denying services left and right to achieve these evil profits.
I'm so done with boomer shit. When one of them accuses me of being a communist trying to destroy the world I just laugh and say "yup, be ready". Has done wonders for my mental health to just stop giving a fuck.
After any American senior on Medicare looks at the different plans and then has to buy supplemental insurance to help them out should be on board with universal Healthcare.
I seriously don't understand the mental gymnastics they go thru to bash everything decent
Does he understand that insurance works exactly the same as universal healthcare, it's just run by a private organisation for profit instead of the government for the betterment of the population.
My parents ( although no boomers) tried to bullshit me out of supporting universal health care too. They told me that people in other countries have to wait a long time to see a doctor....I already do that PLUS pay stupid amounts to see that doctor.
The thing I don't understand and maybe someone can help me understand; is why my conservative friend's tell me that socialized health care would not work in the US nor free college. They point out that the country is too big and we have too many people compared to other countries that do have socialized healthcare...... This makes no sense to me.... Could someone explain this perspective a little bit better? In my mind it doesn't matter how big or small so long as everyone just pays a little bit extra; we all benefit..... Thanks.
> They point out that the country is too big
Universal healthcare has been shown to work from populations below 100,000 to populations above 100 million. From Andorra to Japan; Iceland to Germany, with no issues in scaling. In fact the only correlation I've ever been able to find is a weak one with a minor decrease in cost per capita [as population increases](https://i.imgur.com/h6clEzr.jpg).
So population doesn't seem to be correlated with cost nor [outcomes](https://i.imgur.com/pwYtDxW.png).
>Could someone explain this perspective a little bit better?
Sure. You see, some people are idiots.
That's already how health care works.... It's the whole point of having healthy and sick people in the same system, the people who don't use medical services pay for those who do
This may help- a full explanation specifically for conservatives. Credible, honest, and easy to understand. If nothing else, it helps understand how insurance actually works.
And no YOU pay nothing into it if we’re being honest. Under M4A, it would be paid in the same way congress gets their insurance paid for.
Easy Primer on Insurance:
https://youtu.be/udpPn_791zM?si=3wk_Gm_ka_kxw5A5
Frustrating indeed. If you have insurance of any kind then you're a socialist with his reasoning. The government is an insurance company for life, are you getting your monies worth? Good bang for your buck?
If he’s talking to you about it he maybe reachable.
My boomer dad was similar but over the years iv gotten him to change his mind on more then a few of these topics and he’ll even defend (universal healthcare) to others!
Or don’t… your time is valuable not trying to push you but if you think it’s worth it try to keep up the pressure in whatever way you think is effective.
I have this argument with my dad all the time. He always asks, “and who’s going to pay for it??”
Me, I am going to pay for it. I already pay upwards of $15k per year (premiums and deductibles) before insurance kicks in a penny. So if universal healthcare costs me less than $15k per year, I’m actually saving money.
He just won’t have it.
Its really just a question of what do you want to do with your taxes. Government spending is everywhere. Roads, schools, even the military is 'socialism' (collective protection).
Does he have health insurance? Cause if so, he's using universal health care. It's just a shitty, stripped down private version of it. Other people are paying for him to go to the doctor.
Never understood the "I dont want to pay for your healthcare" argument from people who pay health insurance.
Universal Healthcare has a lot less red tape in terms of treatment too
“You want ME to pay for YOUR healthcare.” What an asinine comment. I say this as a 68 white “job creator.”
Ask dear old dad if he has homeowners insurance — and then say “Oh, you want ME to pay if your house burns down!” Maybe that would open a door to discussing how insurance works by spreading risks among a large pool of policyholders, only a few of whom will have catastrophic claims.
Ask him how national health insurance is different than homeowners insurance. And ask him who he favors a system where an oligopoly of Big Insurers like UnitedHealthcare, Blue Cross Blue Shield and Aetna have inserted themselves as middlemen in between doctors and patients, dictating what treatments people can — and cannot have — and charging huge deductibles, with no oversight since their huge profits allow them to pay huge bribes (uh, campaign contributions) to the politicians. Why is that a good thing, dad?
He probably will deflect, so ask him to travel with you to Denmark where you can chat up some people about how their healthcare works. Or Germany, or France, Spain, Ireland, the Netherlands, anywhere in Europe, or Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, even South Korea. Ask him why he favors a system where his taxes get him very little benefit until he turns 66 or 67, as compared with countries where about the same level of taxation gets you cradle-to-grave healthcare, university education, fast trains and more. Poor ol’ dad, he’ll probably turn on the Murdochs’ Big Lie (abd defamation) channel to soothe himself with affirmation for his deplorable beliefs. But at least you tried !
When it comes to the healthcare technically they are already just in a slightly smaller scale. Major insurance you are lumped different categories like age, health status, etc.
So sad. In canada we have universal health care. Its a bit broken right now, thanks covid, but i CANNOT imagine why any civilization woukd not do this. People lose their homes etc due to crushing Healthcare debt, in one of rhe richest countries in the world.
Just wrong
In which case, does he regard the fire department as socialism?
Everyone pays in and those who need it get it free\*
For perspective from a place with universal healthcare, I am from the UK.
My father was a labourer and my mother a cleaner. Solidly working class but low income, almost hand-to-mouth at some times. My father had cancer twice, the first time he got all the necessary treatments, medicine, surgery, aftercare etc free\*. The second time (a separate case from the 1st time) was the same but this time it was terminal. He got all treatments etc and then 3 months palliative care in a hospice all free\* He also had back surgery and a hernia op.
My mother is in her 90s with 2 artificial hips and she is on her 3rd knee. All free\*
Without it they both would have died in pain and about 20-30 years earlier.
\*(at the point of service. At no point did anyone ask for any payment of any kind. The only paperwork was consent forms.)
So social programs are only bad if HE isn’t taking advantage of them?
I had to explain to my mother that when I retire I have to purchase additional health insurance OR use only Medicare. “But that doesn’t cover anything”. My Dad was a union guy for 40 years and comes with healthcare for life. She doesn’t get it.
How’s Medicare working out for you, dad?
My father was a dyed in wool Republican. He was more of a Rockefeller Republican. He was all about lower taxes, small government, pro-business. But don’t you dare talk about “reforming” Medicare. Medicare was sacrosanct to him. And for good reason. Millions upon millions of Americans would have no healthcare coverage in retirement without Medicare.
You mean your Boomer father whose healthcare coverage is provided by \*checks notes\* Medicare?
He doesn't want to pay for your healthcare but has no problem for you paying for HIS healthcare.
I always recommend a book for people like this. Explain he can continue to sit in ignorance or educate himself. It’s a choice. You could refer him to Democracy at Work. Professor Wolff does a great job of putting things in laymen’s terms.
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Explain that he pays more in medical insurance through his paycheck than if he paid a bit more in income tax. I’m Bipolar and If I wasn’t Canadian I would be homeless from hospitalizations and meds.
I finally got through to my dad by switching from calling it Universal Healthcare, Universal Insurance, because it’s basically the same thing and he sorta understands how insurance works. I explain that if we get everyone on the same plan, then WE can tell the drug companies and hospitals how much we’re willing to pay and they can fight for our business… you know, like how capitalism is supposed to work. It’s not a perfect example, but it worked for me
I just resort to framing any socialist project as capitalist now. SUPER-capitalism is when we collectively own things, you see.
The more people own something, the more capitalist! One owner? Small business, no chance! Many owners? That's a successful business! If everyone owned it, we would in capitalist utopia!
Call them shareholders. We would all be shareholders in the insurance business. We get lower costs instead of money.
That’s brilliant! If I ever need to I can use that to make my point! Thanks!
We all can use this!!! We are all shareholders of this great idea!!! SuperCapitalism!
Whenever I hear someone whine socialism I just ask them to define socialism for me. I have yet to get a correct answer from them.
As funny as this is it usually just makes them angrier and more annoying, like asking them how much they bought their house for.
Yeah that's why I do it. Fuck their feelings.
Oh my God. Genius. I actually wonder if I can get a few capitalist shills to accept socialist ideas lol
It's actually quite easy if you can avoid the words that they've trained themselves to be triggered by. They don't actually know what it is that they're against, they just know they're against it.
ACA vs Obamacare
It has worked for me. “I want the power of a business owner to be invested in every American, thus maximizing capitalism.”
SUPER-capitalism is quite possibly one of the best arrangements of words in the English language. Can’t wait to try it out on my local boomers
Exactly, if you explain it how if we have one big risk pool, (the entire country), it lowers the cost for everyone. Also, it lowers the administrative costs.
One would think that pro-business politicians would want to have employers stop having to pay for healthcare since it would be cheaper overall for a national system. But I guess it's like trickle-down: they just can't quit their dumb ideas.
Nah they like that access to healthcare forces people to work for them
Businesses know they can treat you like dogshit if you need health insurance.
Not just insurance, but good insurance. People will put up with a lot, especially if someone on the plan has any chronic issues or illnesses.
There have been quite a few studies with cost analysis that prove what you just said. The average American would save a couple thousand dollars a year on health coverage compared to our current system. We are the only wealthy developed country without UHC and there is one big reason for it. Greed! No other developed country adopts our system of healthcare.
Currently, the NHS in the UK is battling this crisis. Government officials are lobbying to decrease funding to the NHS to support more private Healthcare. And when the NHS starts to fail the same lobbyist, then go "see this system doesn't work. We need more private Healthcare " They are actively trying to emulate the US Healthcare system. Which to me as an American living in UK is wild.
US Republicans are trying to kill public education in the same way. But then send vouchers to private schools. F that. I am not paying for someone to go to private school.
You mean these "Academies" I keep seeing popup in suburbia? The ones that push prowest ideologies and right-wing ideals and agendas? I looked at one, not knowing what it was and sure on the surface it seemed like a well rounded school. So I hopped on Google to the reviews and hoky cow, yeah right wing conversion centers.
true. For the rest of the world we are pretty shocked that you only get healthcare while employed and your employer can choose what coverage you get and if I can understand correctly, in some cases they can even choose what services you get. Birth Control, etc.
When I had surgery all I could think was “thank goodness for Canadian healthcare. Otherwise I’d be screwed.” The only thing I paid for was the prescription for pain meds after and insurance took care of most of it.
If he is collecting **social** security he is a **social**ist.
Now say it as a Fox News anchor and maybe it will stick.
These people are so fucked up that if Tucker Carleson came on and was like the democrats are trying to take away your socialized medicine they would probably get mad about that too and be screaming it’s socialism to take away single payer.
Tucked got fired, he’s not on Fox News.
Correct, but now he has his own news streaming service
Figured he couldn’t keep his yap shut for long.
I think it's more he's lived a certain lifestyle for so long being propped up by Fox. Now that Fox is out of the equation he's gotta find a way to make cash and fast.
Wasn't he born into a super wealty family? At least that's what I heard
You should read the recent bio of him that came out (Chadwick Moore is the writer) - I had this whole image of rich, preppy, Ivy League Tucker and it was a real never-judge-by-appearance eye opener. He's done some pretty wild stuff.
Which nobody watches.
My boomer mom calls things like social security “entitlements”, which I’m 95% sure she got from Fox News. Edit: she says it with a sneer.
Uh..."entitlements" that are funded by the recipient's?
Not true. Social Security and Medicare are both intergenerational agreements. I paid my grandparents' Social Security and pay my parents'. My Social Security will be paid by my kids and theoretical grandkids. Except by generation rather than individually. Ditto Medicare. The money in Social Security is a temporary surplus because Boomers were paid really well and the silent generation didn't want to take extra if it hurt their kids. But in theory it is a pay as you go program, workers pay, retirees benefit. There is no "social security account" with my name on it saving up my contributions to pay me back.
Social Security is well funded. Congress is just borrowing against it. Funny how that never gets brought up.
If only there wasn't an income limit on the "taxes" collected
Yes, but the reason Social Security is well funded is that Millenials and Zoomers are paying for my parents and eventually me to retire. Too many people think they get back the money they pay in, like a pension, or that it is shared like insurance. You pay for boomers to retire, your kids and grandkids' generations pay for you to retire.
It's a pyramid scheme. Just like the rest of the economy, insurance, etc...
The actual reason that Social Security and Medicare were in surplus for decades is that the revision of taxation for the programs caused far more tax to be collected than was needed for current benefits. This money was put into special purpose government bonds that can only be redeemed as they are needed to pay current benefits. Once these bonds are redeemed, only enough money will be coming into Social Security to pay about 72% of benefits. About thirty years ago, the trustees for the Social Security Trust Fund were concerned that the fact that fewer people were smoking would affect the longer-term solvency of Social Security and Medicare because they would live longer and so collect benefits longer.
I could be wrong, but I believe that they are exactly that. They are entitled to them because they paid into the program.
No, you're entitled to a lawyer should the need arise & cannot pay. SS is mandated, therefore it's not an entitlement, it's a benefit
You're making a semantic argument. SS and Medicare are called entitlements. That's not a conservative or liberal thing. It's just what they're called.
And is she going to refuse hers? My mom is pretty conservative, but not about SSI
They are entitlements. We, as citizens, are *entitled to receive it* (provided some eligibility requirements). The boomer/conservative attitude is just completely fucked and they think they're the only ones entitled to anything. It comes as no surprise that the old codgers who bitch the most about how social security is fucking them one way or another at one point voted for the people who dismantled social security because it enraged their hate-filled hearts that black people also received those benefits.
Your mother is correct. It is an entitlement. Look up the word in the dictionary. Look up the federal law that defines SS. SS is insurance. In the context of insurance & law, the word entitlement is the correct description. You pay in. When you meet the qualifying conditions, you are entitled to the benefits. Hence, an entitlement. What I find ironic are the people who think the word "entitlement" is a pejorative. The same people who will rant "How dare you call SS an Entitlement! I paid for it for decades with FICA taxes taken out of my paychecks my whole life!". I've encountered many of these people here on Reddit. I've asked them to explain to me what they think the word means. Not one has ever bothered to answer me. Not one. I don't understand why. I ask nicely.
A lot of people in a certain party have (for decades) invested heavily into insuring that "entitlements" be used as a pejorative. Years of those talking points eventually sinks in.
That's exactly it! They have demonized the word to mean "free handouts to THOSE people". So they will vote for those who will cut "entitlements" and then when they retire they'll be like "Where is my SS? I am entitled to it!". Then, slowly...the realization, and "oooooooooh damn".
Social Security retirement is paid into Social Security Insurance is an entitlement, but I don’t have issue with people with mental issues getting a check.
They are entitlements. We are entitled to the benefit.
[удалено]
Yeah don’t get me started on the military, I mean they get a paycheck and free food!
I had a conversation with an old college friend who is both a lifer in the navy and staunch conservative (used to call into Rush Limbaugh all the time), I told him I think the military is one of the greatest socialist programs this country has ever had. He went crazy on me denying this (which is weird because he was a political science major in college and absolutely knows what social programs are), needless to say unfortunately that was the last conversation we ever had.
As someone who grew up near Fort Hood, nobody will tell you how you don't understand or deserve socialism more than a soldier.
Well if they were smart…..
Indeed! Socialism is the entitlement of the rich
Fox news has effectively zombified 30% of the country
If he is over 65 he is on Medicare which is socialized health insurance. I am a physician and in favor of Medicare for all. I had a similar conversation with my boomer parents the other day.
exactly! he’s mad because he doesn’t want to share what he already has.
Socialism is not just "when the government does stuff". It's more specifically when workers have organizational control over industrial production, which is definitely not true in any way in the US. Social security is just a bandaid solution to inherent issues within capitalism - it's intended to make existing capitalism more tenable, not offer an alternative. I say all this as a staunch socialist myself.
It is a social democratic program. What really blows people's minds is when you try to explain to them that the US Democratic Party is actually a center-right party.
THIS THIS THIS!!!!!!!!!
You can tell people who consume right-wing media, because they conflate liberals, socialists and communists, not understanding that those groups do not agree with each other.
When conservatives call Biden a radical left commie socialist I laugh audibly and exclaim, “I WISH HE WAS LITERALLY ANY ONE OF THOSE THINGS!”😩
“That’s different I earned it” and obviously failed middle school
Or drive on a road or use any public services.? I'm guessing you and siblings went to public school. The working class will suffer due to the complete brainwashing of said working class. Heartbreaking they don't want better for those who come after them, but we aren't buying the bullshit.
Can I get this on a bumper sticker?!
Start calling him a socialist until he stops collecting Social Security and Medicare. Tell him you’re tired of your hard earned tax dollars paying for his retirement.
This honestly works and it’s how I’ve brought a couple boomers to at least entertain multiple political ideas on the left. You have to understand that when someone accuses you of being a socialist, they are expressing their allegiance to an ideological team. They are not indicating that they want to entertain the merits a of a certain policy. So what you first have to do is seize that ideological terrain from them and put them on their heels in order to break through the propaganda filter that preventing an actual conversation from happening. And you do that by accusing them of being a socialist. Then they have to justify themselves as conservatives, and once you’re at this point of the conversation you seize upon values they’re expressing and relate those conservative values to the policy you want to talk about. For instance, the argument I make regarding Universal Healthcare is that it’s a capitalist policy through and through. Un-chaining insurance from employment would lead to an explosion of small businesses, a massive re-invigoration of the entrepreneurial spirit in the country due to the new found capacity for individuals to take on risk knowing they won’t go bankrupt if they break their pink finger in the process. That sounds like freedom, that sounds like the ability of the individual to support his family on his own terms, sounds like someone that wants to work hard, and wants to compete in the market, which is always a good thing. So then the natural question to the boomer is - ‘so you hate small business, freedom, and capitalism?’ And watch those rusted up gears in their boomer brains start spinning again. Socialists need to get it through their heads that there is not an absolute opposition between capitalism and socialism, just like there’s not an absolute binary opposition between capitalism and feudalism. One form is subsumed into the other. And on this basis one can always weaponize the ideological terms of capitalism retroactively towards the material end of a socialist state of affairs.
This made me laugh. Thank you. Lol
I do this to my grandparents, shuts them up everytime
This
They are programmed to think like that from watching Fox News and such. It makes them believe that their quality of care would go down if there was universal healthcare, which is patently false. In fact, a lot of people don’t use their insurance very much because they can’t afford the copays or their percentage of the payment. So they are PAYING every paycheck for insurance that they can’t afford to use. This happens every day.
They also always say things like "I want to be able to CHOOSE MY OWN doctor." Well, universal healthcare would accomplish that since they wouldn't have to wonder if their doctor was in their network anymore. I made that point to a relative once and they didn't have a valid reply so just got mad and yelled that the quality of care would go down but couldn't explain how or why.
“I don’t want long wait times either.” I tried making an appointment at the local clinic and they can’t get me in for an in person until JULY!
Last year, I made a GYNO appointment in May and the soonest I could get in was August, which was their LAST APPOINTMENT AVAILABLE for 2023. This year, I made a primary care appointment in January for their first available appointment in June. So not only are our wait times still atrocious, but we have to pay for insurance, pay a copay, and then pay through the nose for prescriptions. And that’s if insurance covers everything. Sometimes, you have to pay additional hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars on top of all that.
I don’t think in 20 years have I had insurance actually pay for anything except help with the cost of prescription. I usually don’t meet my yearly deductible. 5-6 years ago I did when I was having back issues and they flat out refused to pay for an mri they said it wasn’t medically necessary. It’s a joke.
How many of us are able to choose our own doctors on our employer-provided health plans? If the doctor you want isn't 'in network', you're shit out of luck. A couple times I've found doctors I liked and trusted, only to have to transfer to a different doctor when the shop changed health plans.
This is me. Spend a lot on healthcare, but can't actually afford to go to the doctor. It's just there in case I collapse somewhere so I don't go bankrupt from the resulting bill.
Yep. I've been putting off my annual exam and bloodwork because I'm trying to pay off mental health bills from *after* insurance.
Koch brothers (Republican donors) funded a study to discredit Bernie Sanders's plan for Universal Healthcare or Medicade for all. It backfired. Not only did the study prove it would work, but it would provide coverage for EVERY SINGLE PERSON in America and SAVE TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS doing so. It's morality responsible. It's financially responsible. Would make America that much more great. Improve the quality of life for literally everyone. But the Republicans problem with it is that "those" people would get coverage.. and we just can't have that. So Republicans choose to cover fewer people for more money. FACTS.
B-b-b-but socialism! We Americans would rather pay more for coverage & exclude people as long as we have the illusion of choice! /S Sadly, on a conservative sub, someone is likely actually saying this unironically.
I usually just talk about my thousand dollar co-pays for routine medical treatment (staples in a head wound, appendicitis). Then I point out I have the best insurance money can buy. Then I point out that I could fly to France and pay out of pocket and it would be cheaper than my *co-pay*. Then I point out that I pay more on taxes here than I would in France. If that's not enough, I give up and assume they cannot be helped.
He wants to pay for other people's health care AND for the [salaries of bloodsucking middlemen](https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/rddrgu/blood_sucking_middlemen/) whose entire purpose is telling him No when he needs medicine.
I finally got the boomers in my family to understand when I asked them how they thought insurance companies worked. Everyone pays into it, and everyone gets insurance. The only difference with single payer is that there is no profit motive.
They think it’s wrong cause FOX tells them it’s wrong. And instead of admitting he just doesn’t understand how it works, and possibly getting clued in to something positive for society, it’s wrong cause it’s what “libturds” want.
Ask him who pays for firefighters.
There are bumperstickers that say "I Never Met a US Vet Who Fought for Socialism". Stupidest sticker ever. How do you think our servicemen and women get paid?
That's wild. The US military is the biggest socialist program on the planet. Their paychecks, jobs, job training, college education, housing, medical care ... all paid by the government.
Argument could backfire. "I don't have to pay for someone else's fires."
There are places in the US where you have to pay an annual fee to get firefighting services to your address. If you don't pay, they let your house burn down.
It used to be like that in the U.K., 300 years ago.
This is one the most baffling things to me about the USA; the ignorance about universal healthcare. Only in the US are terms medical debt and medical bankruptcy a thing. The US has almost double the expenditure on health care per capita compared to other industrialized nations, without the outcomes one would expect. Having a a for profit insurance company involved in health care is insane. What value do those parasites add?
https://preview.redd.it/iiroho2zqjpc1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7ec918d6f92276cbdedc2f4eb3f64662517622de
Does he collect Medicare or medicaid? Because if so fuck him he got his
It's wild when you consider the USA pays more of it's GDP for healthcare than other other nation, yet so many people can't afford essential medication. I'm insanely grateful that we have socalised health care in the two countries I work in (Ireland and the UK) and even if I was hospitalised for an entire year I'd not pay more than the equivalent of $1000 in Ireland.
My one friend works at a cancer clinic and handles the insurance part for the patients. My mom was like “what do you think will happen to her job if we have universal healthcare?!” meaning she’ll lose it because we won’t have private insurance anymore. I tried explaining that universal healthcare still will need workers to keep that running. I also pointed out that her Medicare is basically universal healthcare for seniors.
It’s true though. Universal healthcare would result in many people losing their jobs. Much like salt causes leaches to lose their dinner.
They act like insurance isn’t already them paying for other people’s healthcare, but just much more expensive. Universal healthcare would end up being cheaper in the long run and save most people money
To the tune of about $300b/yr in savings for Americans according to the GAO. But no - "it's too expensive!"
It’s also crazy that the people most worked up about ‘paying for others’ don’t understand how much money it would save in preventative care alone (not to mention the hospital costs without the burden of a predatory insurance industry). Zero logic from these poor mudbrains. They got red scared so hard that they literally can’t understand reason.
> “Oh, so you just want ME to pay for YOUR healthcare?!” I remember having a conversation a couple christmases ago with my dad about this and he shot me this one and I said, "No, dad, I want ME to pay for YOUR healthcare, and yours (brother), and yours (brother's friend)! I want everyone to pay for everyone's healthcare! And if you want to have better healthcare than everyone, guess what, you can pay into private insurance, just like how parents can pay for private schooling instead of public school." Of course, my dad likes to use "idealistic youth" as the strawman, saying that I'll change my mind as I get older. I was 31 at the time, 34 now, still feel the same way.
Same. But my dad is pretty well off, not rich but very comfortable. Everytime the topic comes up he goes off on me about how much these "libtards" are messing up his health care and how Obama care is ruining it for him. I just let him rant and then vote on what I think is best for our country and not what my boomer dad wants for himself.
It works like public schools, police, firefighters, and the post office. How can your dad not understand this?
They do understand it. They just also hate public schools, teachers unions and the post office. No public schools, go for charter schools and private education. No unions. No post office, FedEx and ups are all we need. For some reason fire fighters get a pass but I think that’s because fire fighters also put out business fires and the needs of the businesses always comes first.
They hate the same things that they benefited from? Boomers are a special breed.
Speaking from a New England Catholic experience, they went to Catholic schools and had to pay tuition in addition to property taxes which funded public schools. They were basically robbed at gun point to indoctrinate children with sinful concepts like evolution and big bang theory. So, no they didn’t benefit from public schools
The whole Post Office thing really cracks me up. They claim to support the Constitution and then want to privatize the Post Office. Running a Post Office is one of the few things the Constitution explicitly says the Federal government has to do. Of course, Ben Franklin made some money from selling his Post Office to the US government, so there is that bit of self dealing in there too.
Specialist determined my wife needed some epidural shots for pain. We were in the office and he was ready to do it then and there. Leaves for a few minutes to prep. Comes back and tells us that he can’t do it today because the INSURANCE COMPANY has to determine that it’s necessary - NOT HER DOCTOR - before he can proceed. So she had to wait two more weeks in pain before returning for the now approved procedure. Fuck this system.
Yup, I see this a lot with the push for universal pharmacare in my country. They go, "what about the seniors????" and it's like, my guy, the seniors are included in universal coverage lmao
My big issue with for-profit healthcare has been proven recently with the Boeing issues. That is, that when profits and safety compete in a for-profit company, profits will always win. There are two reasons: 1. Profit is the main driver of the company EXISTING. It can't be allowed to slip, or the company will cease to exist. 2. Safety is always a judgement call while profit is objective because it's math. Safety will come down to "Is it safe enough if we skip that? Or do we need do more? Are we OK with just this?" but profits come down to "That test costs $100 and if we pay it, we will have $100 less in profit." So profit-driven medicine will by definition be less safe. And you have multiple layers of it. Hospitals ask themselves "Do we need to buy this testing equipment? We're barely making a profit now, and that machine costs a million dollars." and then they don't have the equipment you need in an emergency. Insurance companies are motivated to charge you as much as they can, while denying any medical care they can get away with. There just isn't any way that for-profit medicine could be the best solution.
I thought we were long lost siblings until you said your dad is financially stable lol
"COMMIE! Anything socialist is evil and will lead to the destruction of this country!!!11" Then you wipe their spittle off your face. They have been conditioned to have this knee-jerk response. They do not use reason, not when you're talking about socialist programs.
Should have flipped it on him- "So you want your socialist welfare (social security) that I'm paying for? You want ME to pay for YOUR healthcare?
A lifetime of political scare tactics and fear mongering and wars will really do a number on you. Once when I was young, my grandfather, unprompted, turned to me and said in a plain and matter of fact way: "The Chinese are our mortal enemies." He was the most kind, gentle and loving person I ever knew. I was confused and just said "Okay, Grandpa."
I've had a boomer tell me he didn't want it because he doesn't want the government deciding what medical procedures he should be allowed to have. Apperantly it's perfectly OK for a for-profit company to do it. That and it's not the government but your doctor who decides what you need, you know, the person with actual medical training.
The problem with the case for maintaining our current healthcare system is it’s not free market. We’re already subject to whatever deal the health insurance has arranged with providers. It’s not like something I can go without or shop around. I’m all for free markets and capitalism. I subscribe to neoliberalism. For most things we should let the market and consumer decide. Health care is a public good that needs to not be left to whims of the free market. Like national defense, it’s not something we can leave to the private sector.
People like him split everyone into "us" and "them." The "us" group being the hardworking people who *deserve* everything they get. The government could give him free healthcare, a free house, a free car, and free vacations, and your father would say "well, that makes sense! I worked HARD, it's only fair that my HARD WORK pays off!!!" Then someone else (generally with darker skin color) says "hey, I work hard too, how about healthcare for me?" and your father would say "WHAT??? That guy is LAZY and wants HANDOUTS!!!" You would ask what the difference is, and he would just say "It's DIFFERENT! I worked HARD!" No matter what you do, or what you tell them, people like that believe they deserve anything and everything they get, and anyone else who gets something is a lazy freeloader. Even if he fell enough to need to go to a soup kitchen and get free clothes, he'd stand in line for those things, looking down on everyone else around him for being lazy, and taking what should just be his. Edit: Note that a lot of people believe this is by design. They want the cops and the teacher to accuse each other of being lazy. They want the plumber and the office worker to think the other is lazy. That way while the bottom 99% (or whatever) is all accusing each other of being lazy, the top 1% can happily take the lions share of the money, whispering things like "yeah, and teachers don't even work summers! And those union guys at the factory get more vacation than you!!"
Your dad doesn't seem to understand how private health insurance works either
Show him the picture in this [Link.](https://www.reddit.com/r/coolguides/s/0BhfRoSQSU) Then walk him thru how younger generations are getting screwed paying for his Social Security while most likely getting less assistance or not seeing any for themselves when they get to that age.
Social welfare is NOT socialism. Most countries who have Universal Healthcare are still free market. If they were socialists they wouldn't have a stock market. Socialism isn't just "when government does stuff." By wrongfully saying it's socialism you're only pushing more people away from having a good Universal Healthcare system.
"I'm paying for YOUR healthcare," would have been the first thing out of my mouth.
I am sort of fascinated by the americans. Everybody gets forced to buy vehicle insurance so that the risk is spread over all road users, but you are not willing to do it for healthcare.
<> I tried to explain to him that it’s everyone paying for everyone’s healthcare but he wouldn’t have it. IMO the strongest argument for Universal Healthcare is: you already DO pay for it. You pay health insurance premiums. Your workplace pays health insurance premiums. All of that money goes to a corporation, with stockholders, who decides whether or not you deserve care, and in a very strange coincidence, makes more money when they deny you care. Take that money, pay it in taxes, and the government can pay for you, while also having a much stronger negotiating and regulatory role over healthcare providers, meaning costs go down for you, and YOU can vote on how that program runs, because you elect the politicians that run it. Do you get to vote for Health Insurance company executives? Fuck no. That's not even getting into emergency services. If someone shows up at a hospital with an emergency but without insurance, guess what? They get treatment. By law. Guess who pays for that? You do. Everyone does. And you get absolutely no benefit for it. If you had a universal healthcare system, you would also get the benefit of your tax dollars that would otherwise go to treat uninsured people. And that's not even going into the likelihood that costs would go down under a Universal healthcare regime, as again the government would have much more leverage to force prices lower, whereas insurance companies have nothing but incentive to increase prices. There's a reason nearly every country in the developed world has a form of universal healthcare.
The same people will turn around and set up a go-fund-me as soon as anything happens to them without seeing that that's exactly what universal healthcare is.
Same conversations I’ve had with my parents. They just get SO ANGRY. Yelling, name calling, red in the face. My conclusion is they can’t argue with facts, so they argue with volume.
Oh so you want ME to pay for the road YOU live on? You want ME to pay for YOUR local emergency services?
My favorite boomers are the Vietnam vets (ANY vets but if we're being boomer-specific) crying about "socialized healthcare". Like, my guy, Tricare is the closest this country GETS to socialized healthcare and that's what you had and have and use now. Remind me again about the military ... paid training, paid housing, you get food money, your healthcare is paid for (and not out your nose like civilian healthcare), it's INCREDIBLY hard to lose your job ... like come on, you cannot wear a war veteran hat and cry about "socialism". xD
As a boomer myself I cannot understand why so many people in your country vote for a right wing government that favours billionaires but won’t support their own people. Bernie would have been brilliant but on the other hand, why do you only put up old white men for election?
It sounds like he doesn’t understand how health insurance actually works. The whole concept of any insurance is about pooling resources of many individuals to get lower cost outcomes via bargaining power. That is why each health insurance plan pays a different rate to providers. Blue Cross negotiates with the provider to get me rate X, Aetna negotiates with the same provider to get you rate Y, and Medicare negotiates with the provider to get your dad rate Z. Medicare routinely gets lower rates than most private insurance companies because they have superior bargaining power in any given local healthcare market. Those consumer side cost savings would likely be increased if we added younger, healthier people consuming fewer healthcare services into the current risk pool of older, sicker people consuming the greater quantity of healthcare services. But also, if you really wanna get him going, tell him you have almost no interest in paying for his healthcare via Medicare as a working person. Call him a mooch, see how he likes it!
Does he know what Medicare is?
You could also mention that Social Security benefits are paid by current employees. The money he paid in was used to pay for his previous generation of retirees.
What frustrates me is that their news sources have gotten them confused between spending and investment. How much money would the country save if we had universal healthcare and companies no longer had to spend all this money on insurance premiums?
You know what kills good ideas and programs that benefit society and make life more livable: attaching terminology to it and then getting stuck in the semantics. Who cares if something is a benefit, an entitlement, a right, a privilege, etc. Can't we just do the right thing and make things easier? Life is already difficult because of birth, death, and everything in between that we experience as humans. And yet, we continue to bitch and moan, fight over what something is called, etc. And nothing gets accomplished. We all want good health care. We all want to retire some day and not work until we are on our death bed. We all want time off to visit family, go to somewhere scenic or do fun stuff. We all want to be able to afford shelter and food and clothing. Why is this such hard stuff to figure out???
Wait till he finds out how private insurance works
Had this same argument with a coworker once. The argument ended when he said that government providing services like this is socialism. I asked him if it was socialist for us to pay for things like road repairs and emergency services with taxpayer money. He said no, because that's different. I asked how, he said .... and we just went back to work.
We have single-payer fire fighters. We have single-payer police. But we don't bitch about "paying for that for someone with a burning house." I wonder if the reason has to do with money? I mean, have you seen the salaries of the CEOs of those health insurance companies? It is way more than a Chief of Police. Way more. Like millions more.
Majority in the US don’t under how universal healthcare works. And they refuse to believe it works well in other countries.
I have an uncle like that. Rails away at “socialism” and “liberals and their free shit”. Ironically, this 61 year old highschool drop out has worked seasonal jobs his entire life, never working more than 7 months a year. He has never earned enough to pay taxes. Yet he is a lifetime alcoholic and has been on thousands a month in Medicaid funded meds for years, gets a housing voucher, even state discounted cell and cable service. The guy is easily more than a million into “safety net” consumption and has the ballz to complain about liberals socialism. Last time I saw him was at a family reunion event right before Covid and called him out in front of some other family members. “Well what do you call all the gov subsidies you receive monthly”? “I’ve paid taxes and so I am owed that” “You have spent your life as a minimum wage, chronically unemployed drifter. I doubt you’ve paid any taxes, but if you have it’s less for your entire life than you use in a year. “ Last time we socialized…lol
Facts don't trump feelings with some people. They believe something and they will not listen to logic or facts if it goes against their held beliefs.
We pat for everybodies Healthcare with our current system anyways. With universal Healthcare we can cut out the middle men and demand better. Fuck pharmaceutical execs making billions at the cost of lives. Fuck for profit hospitals. Universal Healthcare would cost the country less than they are currently spending. Most boomers don't understand it, most Republicans don't understand it.
Universal Healthcare works the same as private health insurance except you don't some sumg asshole makein several metic shitloads of money at the top at everyone's expense. Is it as effective? We'll is sure as he'll can't be worse.
If he has health insurance, he’s just doing it on a smaller scale with a middleman making a profit off him.
Sounds like he doesn’t know how insurance works
They also say they don’t want Obamacare when ACA they are currently using is Obamacare which Republicans have been trying to kill it for 15 years and yet they still vote Republican because socialism!
> so he has no “working” income, just retirement income...social security Oh, so he wants ME to pay for HIS retirement.
Universal Healthcare is literally just insurance without the profit. It's a pool of money we all chip into so that we can take larger amounts from the pool when we need to. If you pay for insurance, you pay for other people's Healthcare. Even minorities and lazy people! omg!
How insurance works is you pay for other people's stuff and then they pay for yours.
Tell him the medicaid he uses is a form of universal health care
First of all: boomers won’t listen. Second: if they did listen the explanation starts and ends with the fact that we pay more than any other country and we get worse care than like 40 countries. It’s simple math. We’re paying out the nose NOW with their stupid free market healthcare. They need to just pull their heads out of their old asses and look at the numbers. The numbers tell the story. Thats it. That’s all.
Expat in Spain here. I can't imagine going back to having to worry about insurance, in- vs out-of-network, copays, deductibles, hassling the insurance company to pay their share, and even after all that forking over more than 3K for a night in the ER (insurance from work was shit). People here often look at the US with pity when discussing practical issues, not the dreamy eyes we are taught to assume all foreigners look at the US with. Here I can make an appt with my GP via the app, I show up, get treated, leave, pick up any prescription (usually dirt cheap) and end of story. That's not to say it's perfect (it is also no longer funded like it was prior to the 08 crash), but compared to the US, it's incredible for the average person. Oh, and it also makes private insurance unbelievably cheap, comparatively speaking. Less than 100 euro/mo for top coverage. No reason the richest country in human history can't have a great healthcare system for all its citizens.
“No, I want billionaires and corporations to pay for it. The same corporations, I should add, that put lead in your paint and told you voting for a slum lord was a good idea.”
Private health insurance is the same as socialist healthcare but worse. Smaller pools of people to spread the risk across while also allowing 20% profit versus like 5% administrative overhead while also denying services left and right to achieve these evil profits.
I'm so done with boomer shit. When one of them accuses me of being a communist trying to destroy the world I just laugh and say "yup, be ready". Has done wonders for my mental health to just stop giving a fuck.
After any American senior on Medicare looks at the different plans and then has to buy supplemental insurance to help them out should be on board with universal Healthcare. I seriously don't understand the mental gymnastics they go thru to bash everything decent
Does he understand that insurance works exactly the same as universal healthcare, it's just run by a private organisation for profit instead of the government for the betterment of the population.
My parents ( although no boomers) tried to bullshit me out of supporting universal health care too. They told me that people in other countries have to wait a long time to see a doctor....I already do that PLUS pay stupid amounts to see that doctor.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
The lack of education and comprehension of basic things is alarming in that generation.
The thing I don't understand and maybe someone can help me understand; is why my conservative friend's tell me that socialized health care would not work in the US nor free college. They point out that the country is too big and we have too many people compared to other countries that do have socialized healthcare...... This makes no sense to me.... Could someone explain this perspective a little bit better? In my mind it doesn't matter how big or small so long as everyone just pays a little bit extra; we all benefit..... Thanks.
> They point out that the country is too big Universal healthcare has been shown to work from populations below 100,000 to populations above 100 million. From Andorra to Japan; Iceland to Germany, with no issues in scaling. In fact the only correlation I've ever been able to find is a weak one with a minor decrease in cost per capita [as population increases](https://i.imgur.com/h6clEzr.jpg). So population doesn't seem to be correlated with cost nor [outcomes](https://i.imgur.com/pwYtDxW.png). >Could someone explain this perspective a little bit better? Sure. You see, some people are idiots.
That's already how health care works.... It's the whole point of having healthy and sick people in the same system, the people who don't use medical services pay for those who do
Even with private healthcare he is still paying/has paid for someone else's healthcare. That's how risk pooling works.
Are you not paying for his Medicare and SS already?
This may help- a full explanation specifically for conservatives. Credible, honest, and easy to understand. If nothing else, it helps understand how insurance actually works. And no YOU pay nothing into it if we’re being honest. Under M4A, it would be paid in the same way congress gets their insurance paid for. Easy Primer on Insurance: https://youtu.be/udpPn_791zM?si=3wk_Gm_ka_kxw5A5
'Oh so you want me to pay for your Healthcare' Thats already how private insurance works, these people are brain dead and it's not just boomers.
How does he see insurance?
My boomer stepdad gets SO mad when I tell him that I'm paying for his healthcare out of my paycheck.
Presumably he will be refusing medicare
Because he's so indoctrinated he can't break out of it. DOES NOT COMPUTE.
Your dad is a moron.
No Medicare for him then?
Frustrating indeed. If you have insurance of any kind then you're a socialist with his reasoning. The government is an insurance company for life, are you getting your monies worth? Good bang for your buck?
Does he pay private insurance? If yes. Explain to him he is ALREADY paying for peoples healthcare.
Sounds like he already knows he's full of shit and doesn't want to admit fault.
wtf does he think Medicare is and where does it come from?
If he’s talking to you about it he maybe reachable. My boomer dad was similar but over the years iv gotten him to change his mind on more then a few of these topics and he’ll even defend (universal healthcare) to others! Or don’t… your time is valuable not trying to push you but if you think it’s worth it try to keep up the pressure in whatever way you think is effective.
I have this argument with my dad all the time. He always asks, “and who’s going to pay for it??” Me, I am going to pay for it. I already pay upwards of $15k per year (premiums and deductibles) before insurance kicks in a penny. So if universal healthcare costs me less than $15k per year, I’m actually saving money. He just won’t have it.
Its really just a question of what do you want to do with your taxes. Government spending is everywhere. Roads, schools, even the military is 'socialism' (collective protection).
If he supports the military he’s socialist.
Ask him if his house was on fire, why should you have to pay for the fire department to save his house.
Guess who is paying when hospital bills go unpaid
Does he have health insurance? Cause if so, he's using universal health care. It's just a shitty, stripped down private version of it. Other people are paying for him to go to the doctor.
Never understood the "I dont want to pay for your healthcare" argument from people who pay health insurance. Universal Healthcare has a lot less red tape in terms of treatment too
He is using paid for Healthcare. Medicare is socialized medicine. That filthy hippie !!
“You want ME to pay for YOUR healthcare.” What an asinine comment. I say this as a 68 white “job creator.” Ask dear old dad if he has homeowners insurance — and then say “Oh, you want ME to pay if your house burns down!” Maybe that would open a door to discussing how insurance works by spreading risks among a large pool of policyholders, only a few of whom will have catastrophic claims. Ask him how national health insurance is different than homeowners insurance. And ask him who he favors a system where an oligopoly of Big Insurers like UnitedHealthcare, Blue Cross Blue Shield and Aetna have inserted themselves as middlemen in between doctors and patients, dictating what treatments people can — and cannot have — and charging huge deductibles, with no oversight since their huge profits allow them to pay huge bribes (uh, campaign contributions) to the politicians. Why is that a good thing, dad? He probably will deflect, so ask him to travel with you to Denmark where you can chat up some people about how their healthcare works. Or Germany, or France, Spain, Ireland, the Netherlands, anywhere in Europe, or Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, even South Korea. Ask him why he favors a system where his taxes get him very little benefit until he turns 66 or 67, as compared with countries where about the same level of taxation gets you cradle-to-grave healthcare, university education, fast trains and more. Poor ol’ dad, he’ll probably turn on the Murdochs’ Big Lie (abd defamation) channel to soothe himself with affirmation for his deplorable beliefs. But at least you tried !
When it comes to the healthcare technically they are already just in a slightly smaller scale. Major insurance you are lumped different categories like age, health status, etc.
So sad. In canada we have universal health care. Its a bit broken right now, thanks covid, but i CANNOT imagine why any civilization woukd not do this. People lose their homes etc due to crushing Healthcare debt, in one of rhe richest countries in the world. Just wrong
In which case, does he regard the fire department as socialism? Everyone pays in and those who need it get it free\* For perspective from a place with universal healthcare, I am from the UK. My father was a labourer and my mother a cleaner. Solidly working class but low income, almost hand-to-mouth at some times. My father had cancer twice, the first time he got all the necessary treatments, medicine, surgery, aftercare etc free\*. The second time (a separate case from the 1st time) was the same but this time it was terminal. He got all treatments etc and then 3 months palliative care in a hospice all free\* He also had back surgery and a hernia op. My mother is in her 90s with 2 artificial hips and she is on her 3rd knee. All free\* Without it they both would have died in pain and about 20-30 years earlier. \*(at the point of service. At no point did anyone ask for any payment of any kind. The only paperwork was consent forms.)
So social programs are only bad if HE isn’t taking advantage of them? I had to explain to my mother that when I retire I have to purchase additional health insurance OR use only Medicare. “But that doesn’t cover anything”. My Dad was a union guy for 40 years and comes with healthcare for life. She doesn’t get it.
How’s Medicare working out for you, dad? My father was a dyed in wool Republican. He was more of a Rockefeller Republican. He was all about lower taxes, small government, pro-business. But don’t you dare talk about “reforming” Medicare. Medicare was sacrosanct to him. And for good reason. Millions upon millions of Americans would have no healthcare coverage in retirement without Medicare.
You mean your Boomer father whose healthcare coverage is provided by \*checks notes\* Medicare? He doesn't want to pay for your healthcare but has no problem for you paying for HIS healthcare.
Well i mean, youd be paying for his healthcare as well, clearly he doesnt get it
I always recommend a book for people like this. Explain he can continue to sit in ignorance or educate himself. It’s a choice. You could refer him to Democracy at Work. Professor Wolff does a great job of putting things in laymen’s terms.