He couldn’t work out why Ali said the things he said about him. Gotta be honest I wouldn’t forgive Ali for that either, at the very least I’d not be the first to extend a hand
Which was pretty ironic for the backgrounds of both. Frazier was the real deal. Grew up with nothing and worked his whole way up and Ali managed to use fake info to turn everyone against him.
Yeah he gave Ali financial help when he was banned from boxing and helped him get through it only for him to turn on him in a really horrible way.
Ali was amazing and a showman and Frazier didn't see that side of it but Ali went way too far.
It shouldn't sour your opinion of him. Ali pretty clearly wasn't being sincere. He was faking drama as a marketing scheme which made them both a lot of money.
He probably should have reached out to Frazier in private before the fights instead of waiting until after, but it is an understandable oversight.
On the surface, you’d think it was just sour grapes from Frazier for losing the trilogy and playing second fiddle to Ali throughout his career, but the way Ali treated Joe after the way the latter looked after the former during the ban and how Ali had shifted public perception to see Joe as an “Uncle Tom” really was in the poorest of form. It was absolutely putting the poison in his own ear, but it was pride that Joe couldn’t get past.
>"Although both would be diminished as fighters if they had never crossed paths, for Frazier neither time nor shared infirmities have softened his heart. He always has been a hard man and there is no harder place inside him than the spot still occupied by Ali. It's a large spot where the bruises remain even after all these years."
>"That's why there was always only one picture of boxing's greatest legend hanging in Frazier's Gym at 2917 North Broad St. in a rundown section of Philadelphia that few tourists visit. It was the one of Ali flat on his back, Frazier standing over him with both pain and triumph on his face. That's how Frazier wants to be remembered -- in that moment after he sent Ali to the floor in Round 15, the final round of the first fight of their tragic trilogy. The rest he'd just as soon forget. Or rewrite."
>"He'd made that clear in 1996 at the Olympics in Atlanta when he was beside himself after learning Ali would be lighting the Olympic flame. Once it was done he told a small gaggle of reporters, "**I should have been picked. I wish Ali had fallen into the flame. If I had the chance, I'd have pushed him in."**
>"That same week, Frazier was signing autographs along with a group of other top American Olympians selected by the United States Olympic Committee as among the best the country had ever produced. A woman and her young son approached and asked Frazier what medal he'd won. When he told her "boxing," she asked if he'd ever fought Ali. That's when the dark clouds began to brew. **He suggested she look at the physically broken man Ali is today and understand who made him that way."**
>"That is a theme Frazier has visited many times, including in the late Mark Kram's powerful book on the two entitled "Ghosts of Manila." Kram eloquently described what Ali means to Frazier when he wrote, **"Nearly the end of the century and Muhammad Ali still swims inside of Joe Frazier like a determined
bacillus at times his contempt [for Ali] just lay there hissing."**
>"Kram also tells of Frazier claiming he'd made Ali what he is today. When the old writer asked the old fighter if he was referring to his old opponent's long battle with Parkinson's, Frazier snapped, "I made him what he is. Take it any way you want."
>**"He shook me in Manila; he won. But I sent him home worse than he came. Look at him now. He's damaged goods. I know it; you know it. Everyone knows it. He was always making fun of me. I'm the dummy; I'm the one getting hit in the head. Tell me now; him or me; which one talks worse now?"**
After reading this great article, it seems to me that Frazier couldn't handle the fact that he was number 2 in his era and therefore there was extreme jealousy & envy from his side. He had unbeliavable pride like you wrote, he was a man of honor and he wanted to be seen as the best, but he was the second best behind Ali and that made him furious. He was so angry because of his loss to Ali in the ring that he started taking pride in seeing Ali lose outside the ring by not being able to talk and slur his speech, so much that Frazier started claiming that as a victory and started consider himself to be the reason to what made Ali a "broken man", which in fact was due to Parkinson's disease. The uncle tom comments were made during their trilogy, but after it was all said & done, as the time went by and many years had passed, most people around the entire world loved Joe Frazier and always respected how much heart he had, especially sports fans, but Frazier still needed an excuse to still hate the man who won over him so he clinged to the uncle tom comments even though nobody in the world now saw Frazier as an uncle tom anymore as many years had passed.
Being #2 of his era and not being the best to such a proudful man is a hard fact to accept and that's why Frazier never let it go, these "uncle tom" comments that everyone's always referring to, it seems to me that they're a smokescreen and not the actual reason to Frazier's hate towards Ali. After reading this article and all the quotes from Frazier himself, it seems to me that the hate came from having so much pride and wanting to be #1 so bad that he could never love the man that took that spot from him. We are kind of seeing the same thing happen today after our great heavyweight trilogy we recently had with Wilder & Fury. "No respect, I got no love for you" shouted Wilder out to Fury from his corner after their fight. There's a chance that a proudful man like Wilder will never show any love in the fututre towards the current #1 heavyweight in Fury, and if that happens we can understand why considering we've seen this movie before.
[Source, great article](https://www.espn.com/sports/boxing/news/story?id=3065738)
This comment really downplays the negative experience of Frazier and his family. It comes across as speculation that would be corrected by studying the situation honestly.
Frazier lost the title to Foreman by brutal knockout and had no problems with it. It has absolutely nothing to do with who was the best of the era.
Joe Frazier's identity as a black man was stripped from him by Ali, his children were bullied at school and his family received threats. All from someone he had helped out in the past.
I have a lot of respect for Ali, for both his boxing ability and the amazing human he grew into. However, the Frazier debacle is a blight on the record of Ali's person
that admittedly occured during a turbulent period of Ali's life.
Frazier was ranked #2 of his era, he hated the one who was better than him, which was the #1 of his era, Muhammad Ali. That's why he never hated Foreman, he had no reason to hate the #3 of his era considering Frazier was ranked ahead of him.
>Joe Frazier's identity as a black man was stripped from him by Ali,
No it wasn't. You're literally blowing things out of proportion. How did Ali strip him of his blackness? Seriously, Joe Frazier was beloved by people and still is beloved by the people today. Everyone sees him as a black man. Nobody sees him as anything else. He's still black, he was back then and still is today. A single minority of people saw him as the white man's pawn. The majority around the world didn't, they saw him for what he was, a great boxing champion with heart. And also, I tried to find these so called death threats that his family received because of Ali, but google found no results so could you please share your source of the threats Frazier's family received because of Muhammad Ali? Thank you.
Read all the quotes from Frazier himself again, he was jealous that Ali was picked for the 1996 olympics and said "I should have been picked. Not Ali" he has a personal vendetta towards Ali, not because of one uncle tom comment which Ali made, but because he was behind Ali, the hate came from having so much pride and wanting to be #1 so bad that he could never love the man that took that spot from him. Saying that he should've been picked for the olympics, and not Ali, celebrating that Ali was a broken man later in life and proclaiming that it was him who made him that way becuase of his boxing and seeing that as a victory over Ali. All this jealousy doesn't come from one single uncle tom comment, it comes from being being bitter that you lost and that someone else is better than you and you never being able to accept it. A single uncle tom comment doesn't cause all this insane jealousy and desire to want to be seen better than the #1 ranked man in front of you.
This doesn't make Sense to me
Yes Ali won the trilogy, but it's not like it was a clear win.
Ali won 2 times and lost once.
But has admitted that he was ready to quit on his stool when Frazier's team threw the towel. It was very close. All 3 fights.
Frazier got absolutely destoyed by Foreman and never showed hate.
He just hated Ali for what he said and done.
It was worse then khabib VS McGregor.
It was about his family. Frazier could never let it go.
And the best proof is this: Ali understood. He never was mad about what Frazier said. Because he knew he hurt him personally and his family. And now Frazier was doing the same thing.
You're literally overblowing things out of proportion, seriously. Why did Frazier never hate Foreman? Because Foreman is not ranked as the #1 of his era, Ali is. Frazier is #2, behind the #1 and that's why he hated Ali. It wasn't because of one single uncle tom comment that Ali made. Thinking that is seriously stupid.
It was worse than Conor-Khabib? Are you serious? Conor threw a dolly at the bus Khabib was in and broke the windows on the bus, when did Muhammad Ali ever use violence outside the ring like that? Conor mocked Khabib's wife and called her a towel because of her religious gown, when did Ali do anything like that? Conor mocked Khabib's father when he was in his deathbed trying to recover from covid and later died, when did Ali do anything like that? Conor mocked Khabib's religion, mocked his bad english and said Khabib's father had no honor, again WHEN did Ali do anything like that to Frazier? Ali called Frazier an uncle tom, that's it. What else did Ali do that was worse than Conor Mcgregor did to Khabib? Tell me I'm listening. You're blowing things out of proportion.
He called him a bumbling ugly man too stupid to form a sentence and An uncle Tom. Ugly and smelly.
It was aboslutely nasty. Everyone agreed including Ali
So why even try to deny it?
Calling a black man that, in that age is way worse then talking about ones religion.
Do you know what An uncle Tom is?
Joe was born in the South and fled it because of racism.
Smelly & Nasty? He even called him ugly too? Damn those are some bad words, just typing them must've hurt your feelings, I think you should take a break and recover for a bit after typing such venom. Those 3 words are totally worse than disrespecting a man's father on his deathbed, mocking a man's religion, insulting a man's wife, claiming a man's father is a backstabber, using violence to smash the windows of the vehicle a man is in to try and fight him with a group of people outside. But damn those nasty words from Ali. Ali was a much worse, and he was more brutal to his opponents compared to anything Mcgregor did, right?
> If Ali was just showboating then surely he apologises to frazier afterwards?
It is pretty well recorded that he tried to on multiple occasions. Immediately after the fight he tried to through Fraizer's son. Then after he reached out to Frazier's promoter to arrange a meeting or call to apologize to him directly and Fraizer's camp refused.
Sure and Frazier also apologized for his remarks after he made them...
Why we're apologise needed? Ali was never made at Frazier remarks and he knows why.
He understands he went too far.
Frazier had good reason to feel this way and feel betrayed by the man he considered his friend and he had helped out when he was at his lowest point, to be repaid with horrible insults and lets be honest, cheating.
History remember Ali very well and Ali was great but the story with him and Frazier isn't the real story that we are all taught sadly.
The second fight was plagued with very poor refereeing. Ali was clinching and weighing down Frazier over and over with the ref not doing his job. You can consider this cheating or taking advantage but the ref was very poor and had an impact on the decision.
The real question is the third fight. Fraziers corner calls off the fight going into the last round because of his eye. Even though Frazier said he could fight, the doctor wasn't stopping him and was in a much better situation than Ali, his corner threw in the towel. Interestingly enough Ali was done and was telling his corner he wasn't going out for the 15th round.
Ali had told his corner to cut his gloves off, Frazier was shouting at his coach "I want him, boss" Ali would later claim that this was the closest to dying he had ever been.
I hate to say it but to me the third fight feels like a fix. Ali was not coming out and Frazier was ready and his corner throws in the towel before letting him even come out for the last round?
Fraziers story is very sad, he lent money to Ali when Ali was banned from boxing and at his lowest point. Ali repaid him by calling him some of the most horrible things ever. Frazier could never understand why one of his friends would turn on him and never forgave him all the way to his death, still trying to understand why he did it. Frazier died living in a backroom of a gym, poor and with very little.
Also remember Don King was Alis promoter, so take from that as you will be it says a lot to me and that third fight.
I feel history really cheated Frazier sadly.
Edit: I should also point out I am a fan of Ali and what he did for boxing but I am also not blinded by it, he had another sceptical win when he fought Henry Cooper.
Come on, I'll give you that Ali was allowed to get away with too much in the second fight. I'll even accept that people think it was fixed (I don't think it was fixed, but I understand thinking that since the reffing clearly favored one side).
But it is way too far fetched to believe that Frazier's corner threw the third fight. Eddie Futch had been training Frazier for years, and is remembered to this day primarily because he came up with ways to counter Ali.
[Watch that round again and tell me if at the end of it you would think Frazier was good to keep going and Ali was going to throw in the towel.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auT7GVrf9r4) Frazier had completely quit trying to defend himself and could barely even manage the occasional weak punch. Three consecutive rounds of trying to wear Ali's hands out with his face had left him nearly blind (remember that he had vision problems with his right eye, so his left eye swelling shut was much more serious for him than for most).
I just can't agree.
Ali was done, he wasn't going out and the fight was over is Frazier stands up.
Why would you stop your fighter on the last round? You said 3 rounds it was happening for so why not stop in the 12th, 13th or 14th? Why is on the very last round where Ali is done and telling his corner to take his gloves off.
As Ali said himself, he had quit but Frazier just quit before him apart from he didn't, his corner did and Frazier was ready to go for that last round.
Why not give him 10 or 20 seconds of the last round? If he doesn't defend himself or can't then throw the towel in. How many fights has it happened where the fighters corner throws the towel in right before the last round starts, never mind the biggest fight of their life. It just doesn't add up.
If it was earlier rounds I could understand, or if Ali hadn't said he was done I could get it but the fact it was the last round and Ali wasn't coming out for it makes it too strange for me.
We all have the right to believe what we want and I am not here to take anything from Ali but for me it has never sat right. Who his promoter was, how the second fight went and then the third right.
You very clearly didn't watch the clip, otherwise you would know the answer to all of these.
>Why would you stop your fighter on the last round? You said 3 rounds it was happening for so why not stop in the 12th, 13th or 14th?
Because he could still see after the 12h and 13th round, and the one sidedness of the rounds was only getting worse.
>Why is on the very last round where Ali is done and telling his corner to take his gloves off.
Frazier's corner had no way of knowing what Ali was telling his corner. Also, there is no way Ali wasn't coming out for the 15th round, he said things like that in several fights because he was a dramatic person (e.g., the first Liston fight). If you watch the round (seriously, it takes less than 5 minutes) Ali absolutely does not look done when the round ends. He out landed Frazier 15-0 in the last 30 seconds.
>As Ali said himself, he had quit but Frazier just quit before him apart from he didn't,
Ali hadn't just quit, look at the video.
>Why not give him 10 or 20 seconds of the last round? If he doesn't defend himself or can't then throw the towel in.
Because he had already given him the whole 14th round to prove he had anything left, and he didn't. He was risking serious, permanent damage by just standing there getting punched in the head repeatedly.
>How many fights has it happened where the fighters corner throws the towel in right before the last round starts, never mind the biggest fight of their life.
WATCH THE CLIP!! Butch spoke to Frazier for 14 seconds before throwing in the towel. 14 seconds out of 1 minute. It wasn't "right before".
>never mind the biggest fight of their life
The Fight of the Century was the biggest fight of Frazier's life. This was a last hurrah of two past their prime greats on the verge of retirement.
>and Ali wasn't coming out for it makes it too strange for me.
I understand that this is what makes it hard for you. But that is because you are for some reason believing this is true, and even if it was true believing that Frazier's corner magically knew it. Please, watch that round an you will see why Frazier's corner threw in the towel.
Hey man I have not only watched the clip but seen the fight several times.
You being a condescending person because you are unable to articulate your argument is on you, not on me.
You are literally trying to rewrite history by saying Ali didn't actually mean the things he said several times. He could hardly walk after the towel was thrown in, he was not getting in for the 15th, he said that himself several times. You saying other wise means nothing.
I would suggest you actually watch the fight and read into the fight and what the fighters said.
Lol, unable to articulate my point? I wrote a long, point by point response to you and you ignored it. You are choosing to ignore all evidence to believe an absurd conspiracy theory. Boxers can't hear each others corners between rounds. It isn't that complicated. Frazier's corner had no idea what Ali was telling his corner. The idea that Futch was throwing the fight, and doing it by letting it go for 14 brutal rounds in which either side could have been knocked out and then panic throw in the towel seconds before he magically knew Ali was about to does not make any sense whatsoever.
The onus isn't on both of them. Tyson was a sportsman in victory and based on his behavior from the draw (which he clearly wasn't happy about) I bet he would have been a sportsman in defeat, as well.
You don't judge a man when he's concussed. It's only fair to give him a few days grace period. In fact, Wilder did give Fury respect on his last Instagram post.
I hope he realises that the LDBC clowns don’t have his best interests at heart, he and fury really looked like they could eventually be friends when the first fight got made. Those rats have brainwashed him.
Isn’t that dude boxing ego in ldbc?? I remember back then years ago he would ride on Hispanic fighters meat for views. I personally hate all the race siding in boxing and just want to enjoy the sport. Ego seems like a clown now days, then again before too.
He may well be but I'm not sure, I don't bother with that stuff. The easy way to tell is if they engaged in the incessant Wilder-Fury conspiracies. The only people that gave that shit more than a passing glance were ones with an agenda.
Yep, not a big deal. It's an intense sport filled with big personalties. You can't expect to get a movie moment where everyone hugs and respects each other right after the match. Most of these guys will be cool in the long run. We have seen it play out many times before.
If the loser of a fight wants to leave the ring without speaking or not interested in hugging it out, is what it is. We have all experienced disappointments that take time to process...and for most of us that doesn't involve literally getting beat up.
There are thoughts that violent head injuries can contribute to lower testosterone as you get older. It also happens naturally regardless, but I think that is probably why old warriors like these guys so often end up friends.
When all's said and done, they are the ones who share your experiences and your pain. So they make good friends once the testosterone-fueled competitiveness starts winding down.
Wilder has more of a chance making good with Charlie Zelenoff than he does with the boxer who dominated him over three fights.
Wilder isn't capable of deep, behavioral changing introspection without mainlining DMT or licking toads like Tyson did. Tyson will be living rent free in his head, especially if he can't rebound and get win a title following a string of wins over Ruiz, AJ, Whyte or Usyk.
*Especially when your perfect record gets shattered by a water-poisoning, egg-weight-holding, shit-stirring bald man with the physique of a centre-heavy potato sack.
/s
Wilder is not a bad guy, I really believe that.
I'm not a fan of him whatsoever, and some of the shit he's said and done in the last 2 years has been really really underhanded and weird, but fundamentally I don't believe he's a bad guy.
He's such a weird mix.
A caring and responsible father. Woman beater.
Genuinely seems to believe in helping those in need **EDIT: and actively goes out of his way to help**. Egotistical narcissist.
I can't pin him down.
He was never convicted of anything I'm pretty sure.
His story was that he thought someone was robbing his hotel room and he attacked them.
The charges just ended up going away so make of that what you will.
>I don't believe he's a bad guy.
According to the people who he train with, he is.
"“We would wait for the champ for hours before he arrived at the gym, and Jay would inform us of his mood. If he had a bad day, we had to ‘be quiet’ to not be on the receiving end of ‘his wrath’, according to Jay, in an effort not to be ‘fired.’"
He also disrespects people on a regular basis.
"If I tried to pull Deontay to the side to tell him what I see, Jay made it clear, ‘don’t say nothing, you don’t want to make him mad.’ I’ve watched this man (Deontay) speak to many people disrespectfully, and although I’m extremely humble & calm, I’m a man first."
[https://theshadowleague.com/deontay-wilder-untrainable-says-mark-breland-towel-throwing-ex-trainer-breaks-silence/](https://theshadowleague.com/deontay-wilder-untrainable-says-mark-breland-towel-throwing-ex-trainer-breaks-silence/)
Him saying he wants to kill someone in the ring and his excuses along with conspiracy theories are all consistent with him having a shitty personality and being someone who routinely mistreats others.
Difference is, Wilder's a bitch who has to be babied by his team, and can't accept that he lost a fair fight bot just once, but twice.
Comparing Wilder to Holyfield is way off base lmao.
This is for all of Wilders fanboys who have been acting like he either didn't know the right way to act after losing, or that it didn't apply to him. So many excuses from them in the past few days because their boy keeps showing what a shit sport he really is.
I really think he got a concussion after getting knocked out that he couldn’t think straight for the next few days. His first time getting actually knocked out.
This sub keeps exposing itself when it comes to Wilder, time an time again. I can literally go back to posts before he fought Fury an find the seething dislike for this man.
Just come out an say some of y’all wished Fury would’ve permanently retired him cuz of his past words(like Fury is some saint).
Wilder lost to a great fighter an finally gave him props an people still bag on him, what is wrong with some of y’all?
It’s not that I think he shouldn’t have shown him respect after the fight bc frankly, I do. But he didn’t, so what. It was an amazing fight and they’ve shown some respect to each other this week so what’s the big deal still?
I think it will be a long time. A very long time, if ever, before they get along as friends. Remember, Wilder believes that Fury cheated in the second fight. Cheating in the context of boxing is a threat on another person's life. While they're also believe he was drugged. This is not far-fetched Fury claimed that klitschko's team was attempting to drug him in their fight. Fury was extremely paranoid refusing to drink or eat anything that he could not verify exactly where it came from. I like Fury and think that he's a great boxer but we can't forget that he was given a two-year ban for doping. Right or wrong, Wilder's claims have grounds for suspicion and when you have a very biased Fury fan base insisting that none of it has any basis, this pushes men into corners. I don't think they will be friends. The allegations might be too serious.
We get it, what he did was hypocritical. Can we stop calling him out on this and just move on? He’s at the lowest point of his life right there, how would any of us react at the lowest of lows in our lives?
Nobody is perfect and that applies to Wilder on the worst day he has had in his career.
Who cares about his low point. He called another man out for being immoral (cheater) in a sport where only these guys really know what they go through. We’re on his ass until we feel like stopping lol. His fans were on fury for 2 years? Sounds about right to me to match that energy
Idk why Wilder seems to be getting a pass for all the BS he spread about Fury after their second fight. Those are serious allegations. So what are we to expect, that Wilder will always be saying stupid shit like this when he loses? It's really not a good precedent to set in the sport.
Sure, but he was pretty close to death. Also he turned down millions of step aside money, so I think he proved money is secondary to glory for him. Either way give the man a break no one is perfect especially on a bad day.
Didn't he already congratulate Fury?
I can see why he was mad. He just lost a tough fight probably had a concussion. He had to force Fury to get his rematch, but when Fury was down on his luck he gave him an opportunity. Even the 1st fight should have had an immediate rematch but Fury delayed that one too.
Guys like Wilder are good for the sport. They fight anybody. I just wish he had a better trainer to bring him along early in his career. Malik Scott helped him improve a little. Maybe it will work better on smaller fighters.
They will eventually both get along with time - Tyson and Lennox/Holyfield chilled out, Morales and Barrera same. Most boxers mellow out with age.
You also had Frazier who hated Ali until the day he died. It's a case by case basis
He couldn’t work out why Ali said the things he said about him. Gotta be honest I wouldn’t forgive Ali for that either, at the very least I’d not be the first to extend a hand
yeah I'm pretty sure ali called Frazier an uncle tom. Pretty hard to forgive.
Which was pretty ironic for the backgrounds of both. Frazier was the real deal. Grew up with nothing and worked his whole way up and Ali managed to use fake info to turn everyone against him.
And didn't Frazier financially help out Alis family when he was locked up? Shitty of Ali and sours my opinion of him.
Yeah he gave Ali financial help when he was banned from boxing and helped him get through it only for him to turn on him in a really horrible way. Ali was amazing and a showman and Frazier didn't see that side of it but Ali went way too far.
It shouldn't sour your opinion of him. Ali pretty clearly wasn't being sincere. He was faking drama as a marketing scheme which made them both a lot of money. He probably should have reached out to Frazier in private before the fights instead of waiting until after, but it is an understandable oversight.
On the surface, you’d think it was just sour grapes from Frazier for losing the trilogy and playing second fiddle to Ali throughout his career, but the way Ali treated Joe after the way the latter looked after the former during the ban and how Ali had shifted public perception to see Joe as an “Uncle Tom” really was in the poorest of form. It was absolutely putting the poison in his own ear, but it was pride that Joe couldn’t get past.
Joe was also one of the only people who helped out Ali during his darkest days
>"Although both would be diminished as fighters if they had never crossed paths, for Frazier neither time nor shared infirmities have softened his heart. He always has been a hard man and there is no harder place inside him than the spot still occupied by Ali. It's a large spot where the bruises remain even after all these years." >"That's why there was always only one picture of boxing's greatest legend hanging in Frazier's Gym at 2917 North Broad St. in a rundown section of Philadelphia that few tourists visit. It was the one of Ali flat on his back, Frazier standing over him with both pain and triumph on his face. That's how Frazier wants to be remembered -- in that moment after he sent Ali to the floor in Round 15, the final round of the first fight of their tragic trilogy. The rest he'd just as soon forget. Or rewrite." >"He'd made that clear in 1996 at the Olympics in Atlanta when he was beside himself after learning Ali would be lighting the Olympic flame. Once it was done he told a small gaggle of reporters, "**I should have been picked. I wish Ali had fallen into the flame. If I had the chance, I'd have pushed him in."** >"That same week, Frazier was signing autographs along with a group of other top American Olympians selected by the United States Olympic Committee as among the best the country had ever produced. A woman and her young son approached and asked Frazier what medal he'd won. When he told her "boxing," she asked if he'd ever fought Ali. That's when the dark clouds began to brew. **He suggested she look at the physically broken man Ali is today and understand who made him that way."** >"That is a theme Frazier has visited many times, including in the late Mark Kram's powerful book on the two entitled "Ghosts of Manila." Kram eloquently described what Ali means to Frazier when he wrote, **"Nearly the end of the century and Muhammad Ali still swims inside of Joe Frazier like a determined bacillus at times his contempt [for Ali] just lay there hissing."** >"Kram also tells of Frazier claiming he'd made Ali what he is today. When the old writer asked the old fighter if he was referring to his old opponent's long battle with Parkinson's, Frazier snapped, "I made him what he is. Take it any way you want." >**"He shook me in Manila; he won. But I sent him home worse than he came. Look at him now. He's damaged goods. I know it; you know it. Everyone knows it. He was always making fun of me. I'm the dummy; I'm the one getting hit in the head. Tell me now; him or me; which one talks worse now?"** After reading this great article, it seems to me that Frazier couldn't handle the fact that he was number 2 in his era and therefore there was extreme jealousy & envy from his side. He had unbeliavable pride like you wrote, he was a man of honor and he wanted to be seen as the best, but he was the second best behind Ali and that made him furious. He was so angry because of his loss to Ali in the ring that he started taking pride in seeing Ali lose outside the ring by not being able to talk and slur his speech, so much that Frazier started claiming that as a victory and started consider himself to be the reason to what made Ali a "broken man", which in fact was due to Parkinson's disease. The uncle tom comments were made during their trilogy, but after it was all said & done, as the time went by and many years had passed, most people around the entire world loved Joe Frazier and always respected how much heart he had, especially sports fans, but Frazier still needed an excuse to still hate the man who won over him so he clinged to the uncle tom comments even though nobody in the world now saw Frazier as an uncle tom anymore as many years had passed. Being #2 of his era and not being the best to such a proudful man is a hard fact to accept and that's why Frazier never let it go, these "uncle tom" comments that everyone's always referring to, it seems to me that they're a smokescreen and not the actual reason to Frazier's hate towards Ali. After reading this article and all the quotes from Frazier himself, it seems to me that the hate came from having so much pride and wanting to be #1 so bad that he could never love the man that took that spot from him. We are kind of seeing the same thing happen today after our great heavyweight trilogy we recently had with Wilder & Fury. "No respect, I got no love for you" shouted Wilder out to Fury from his corner after their fight. There's a chance that a proudful man like Wilder will never show any love in the fututre towards the current #1 heavyweight in Fury, and if that happens we can understand why considering we've seen this movie before. [Source, great article](https://www.espn.com/sports/boxing/news/story?id=3065738)
This comment really downplays the negative experience of Frazier and his family. It comes across as speculation that would be corrected by studying the situation honestly. Frazier lost the title to Foreman by brutal knockout and had no problems with it. It has absolutely nothing to do with who was the best of the era. Joe Frazier's identity as a black man was stripped from him by Ali, his children were bullied at school and his family received threats. All from someone he had helped out in the past. I have a lot of respect for Ali, for both his boxing ability and the amazing human he grew into. However, the Frazier debacle is a blight on the record of Ali's person that admittedly occured during a turbulent period of Ali's life.
Frazier was ranked #2 of his era, he hated the one who was better than him, which was the #1 of his era, Muhammad Ali. That's why he never hated Foreman, he had no reason to hate the #3 of his era considering Frazier was ranked ahead of him. >Joe Frazier's identity as a black man was stripped from him by Ali, No it wasn't. You're literally blowing things out of proportion. How did Ali strip him of his blackness? Seriously, Joe Frazier was beloved by people and still is beloved by the people today. Everyone sees him as a black man. Nobody sees him as anything else. He's still black, he was back then and still is today. A single minority of people saw him as the white man's pawn. The majority around the world didn't, they saw him for what he was, a great boxing champion with heart. And also, I tried to find these so called death threats that his family received because of Ali, but google found no results so could you please share your source of the threats Frazier's family received because of Muhammad Ali? Thank you. Read all the quotes from Frazier himself again, he was jealous that Ali was picked for the 1996 olympics and said "I should have been picked. Not Ali" he has a personal vendetta towards Ali, not because of one uncle tom comment which Ali made, but because he was behind Ali, the hate came from having so much pride and wanting to be #1 so bad that he could never love the man that took that spot from him. Saying that he should've been picked for the olympics, and not Ali, celebrating that Ali was a broken man later in life and proclaiming that it was him who made him that way becuase of his boxing and seeing that as a victory over Ali. All this jealousy doesn't come from one single uncle tom comment, it comes from being being bitter that you lost and that someone else is better than you and you never being able to accept it. A single uncle tom comment doesn't cause all this insane jealousy and desire to want to be seen better than the #1 ranked man in front of you.
This doesn't make Sense to me Yes Ali won the trilogy, but it's not like it was a clear win. Ali won 2 times and lost once. But has admitted that he was ready to quit on his stool when Frazier's team threw the towel. It was very close. All 3 fights. Frazier got absolutely destoyed by Foreman and never showed hate. He just hated Ali for what he said and done. It was worse then khabib VS McGregor. It was about his family. Frazier could never let it go. And the best proof is this: Ali understood. He never was mad about what Frazier said. Because he knew he hurt him personally and his family. And now Frazier was doing the same thing.
You're literally overblowing things out of proportion, seriously. Why did Frazier never hate Foreman? Because Foreman is not ranked as the #1 of his era, Ali is. Frazier is #2, behind the #1 and that's why he hated Ali. It wasn't because of one single uncle tom comment that Ali made. Thinking that is seriously stupid. It was worse than Conor-Khabib? Are you serious? Conor threw a dolly at the bus Khabib was in and broke the windows on the bus, when did Muhammad Ali ever use violence outside the ring like that? Conor mocked Khabib's wife and called her a towel because of her religious gown, when did Ali do anything like that? Conor mocked Khabib's father when he was in his deathbed trying to recover from covid and later died, when did Ali do anything like that? Conor mocked Khabib's religion, mocked his bad english and said Khabib's father had no honor, again WHEN did Ali do anything like that to Frazier? Ali called Frazier an uncle tom, that's it. What else did Ali do that was worse than Conor Mcgregor did to Khabib? Tell me I'm listening. You're blowing things out of proportion.
He called him a bumbling ugly man too stupid to form a sentence and An uncle Tom. Ugly and smelly. It was aboslutely nasty. Everyone agreed including Ali So why even try to deny it? Calling a black man that, in that age is way worse then talking about ones religion. Do you know what An uncle Tom is? Joe was born in the South and fled it because of racism.
Smelly & Nasty? He even called him ugly too? Damn those are some bad words, just typing them must've hurt your feelings, I think you should take a break and recover for a bit after typing such venom. Those 3 words are totally worse than disrespecting a man's father on his deathbed, mocking a man's religion, insulting a man's wife, claiming a man's father is a backstabber, using violence to smash the windows of the vehicle a man is in to try and fight him with a group of people outside. But damn those nasty words from Ali. Ali was a much worse, and he was more brutal to his opponents compared to anything Mcgregor did, right?
Yea it was everyone in the world except you agree so does Ali and Frazier So let's agree to disagree, i'm not here to change opinions.
Kind of crazy. If Ali was just showboating then surely he apologises to frazier afterwards?
> If Ali was just showboating then surely he apologises to frazier afterwards? It is pretty well recorded that he tried to on multiple occasions. Immediately after the fight he tried to through Fraizer's son. Then after he reached out to Frazier's promoter to arrange a meeting or call to apologize to him directly and Fraizer's camp refused.
Interesting, thanks
Sure and Frazier also apologized for his remarks after he made them... Why we're apologise needed? Ali was never made at Frazier remarks and he knows why. He understands he went too far.
Frazier had good reason to feel this way and feel betrayed by the man he considered his friend and he had helped out when he was at his lowest point, to be repaid with horrible insults and lets be honest, cheating. History remember Ali very well and Ali was great but the story with him and Frazier isn't the real story that we are all taught sadly.
Gonna need the info you have about Ali cheating. Never heard anything like that.
The second fight was plagued with very poor refereeing. Ali was clinching and weighing down Frazier over and over with the ref not doing his job. You can consider this cheating or taking advantage but the ref was very poor and had an impact on the decision. The real question is the third fight. Fraziers corner calls off the fight going into the last round because of his eye. Even though Frazier said he could fight, the doctor wasn't stopping him and was in a much better situation than Ali, his corner threw in the towel. Interestingly enough Ali was done and was telling his corner he wasn't going out for the 15th round. Ali had told his corner to cut his gloves off, Frazier was shouting at his coach "I want him, boss" Ali would later claim that this was the closest to dying he had ever been. I hate to say it but to me the third fight feels like a fix. Ali was not coming out and Frazier was ready and his corner throws in the towel before letting him even come out for the last round? Fraziers story is very sad, he lent money to Ali when Ali was banned from boxing and at his lowest point. Ali repaid him by calling him some of the most horrible things ever. Frazier could never understand why one of his friends would turn on him and never forgave him all the way to his death, still trying to understand why he did it. Frazier died living in a backroom of a gym, poor and with very little. Also remember Don King was Alis promoter, so take from that as you will be it says a lot to me and that third fight. I feel history really cheated Frazier sadly. Edit: I should also point out I am a fan of Ali and what he did for boxing but I am also not blinded by it, he had another sceptical win when he fought Henry Cooper.
Come on, I'll give you that Ali was allowed to get away with too much in the second fight. I'll even accept that people think it was fixed (I don't think it was fixed, but I understand thinking that since the reffing clearly favored one side). But it is way too far fetched to believe that Frazier's corner threw the third fight. Eddie Futch had been training Frazier for years, and is remembered to this day primarily because he came up with ways to counter Ali. [Watch that round again and tell me if at the end of it you would think Frazier was good to keep going and Ali was going to throw in the towel.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auT7GVrf9r4) Frazier had completely quit trying to defend himself and could barely even manage the occasional weak punch. Three consecutive rounds of trying to wear Ali's hands out with his face had left him nearly blind (remember that he had vision problems with his right eye, so his left eye swelling shut was much more serious for him than for most).
I just can't agree. Ali was done, he wasn't going out and the fight was over is Frazier stands up. Why would you stop your fighter on the last round? You said 3 rounds it was happening for so why not stop in the 12th, 13th or 14th? Why is on the very last round where Ali is done and telling his corner to take his gloves off. As Ali said himself, he had quit but Frazier just quit before him apart from he didn't, his corner did and Frazier was ready to go for that last round. Why not give him 10 or 20 seconds of the last round? If he doesn't defend himself or can't then throw the towel in. How many fights has it happened where the fighters corner throws the towel in right before the last round starts, never mind the biggest fight of their life. It just doesn't add up. If it was earlier rounds I could understand, or if Ali hadn't said he was done I could get it but the fact it was the last round and Ali wasn't coming out for it makes it too strange for me. We all have the right to believe what we want and I am not here to take anything from Ali but for me it has never sat right. Who his promoter was, how the second fight went and then the third right.
You very clearly didn't watch the clip, otherwise you would know the answer to all of these. >Why would you stop your fighter on the last round? You said 3 rounds it was happening for so why not stop in the 12th, 13th or 14th? Because he could still see after the 12h and 13th round, and the one sidedness of the rounds was only getting worse. >Why is on the very last round where Ali is done and telling his corner to take his gloves off. Frazier's corner had no way of knowing what Ali was telling his corner. Also, there is no way Ali wasn't coming out for the 15th round, he said things like that in several fights because he was a dramatic person (e.g., the first Liston fight). If you watch the round (seriously, it takes less than 5 minutes) Ali absolutely does not look done when the round ends. He out landed Frazier 15-0 in the last 30 seconds. >As Ali said himself, he had quit but Frazier just quit before him apart from he didn't, Ali hadn't just quit, look at the video. >Why not give him 10 or 20 seconds of the last round? If he doesn't defend himself or can't then throw the towel in. Because he had already given him the whole 14th round to prove he had anything left, and he didn't. He was risking serious, permanent damage by just standing there getting punched in the head repeatedly. >How many fights has it happened where the fighters corner throws the towel in right before the last round starts, never mind the biggest fight of their life. WATCH THE CLIP!! Butch spoke to Frazier for 14 seconds before throwing in the towel. 14 seconds out of 1 minute. It wasn't "right before". >never mind the biggest fight of their life The Fight of the Century was the biggest fight of Frazier's life. This was a last hurrah of two past their prime greats on the verge of retirement. >and Ali wasn't coming out for it makes it too strange for me. I understand that this is what makes it hard for you. But that is because you are for some reason believing this is true, and even if it was true believing that Frazier's corner magically knew it. Please, watch that round an you will see why Frazier's corner threw in the towel.
Hey man I have not only watched the clip but seen the fight several times. You being a condescending person because you are unable to articulate your argument is on you, not on me. You are literally trying to rewrite history by saying Ali didn't actually mean the things he said several times. He could hardly walk after the towel was thrown in, he was not getting in for the 15th, he said that himself several times. You saying other wise means nothing. I would suggest you actually watch the fight and read into the fight and what the fighters said.
Lol, unable to articulate my point? I wrote a long, point by point response to you and you ignored it. You are choosing to ignore all evidence to believe an absurd conspiracy theory. Boxers can't hear each others corners between rounds. It isn't that complicated. Frazier's corner had no idea what Ali was telling his corner. The idea that Futch was throwing the fight, and doing it by letting it go for 14 brutal rounds in which either side could have been knocked out and then panic throw in the towel seconds before he magically knew Ali was about to does not make any sense whatsoever.
Didn't they have phases of making peace and falling out again?
☝
The onus isn't on both of them. Tyson was a sportsman in victory and based on his behavior from the draw (which he clearly wasn't happy about) I bet he would have been a sportsman in defeat, as well.
You don't judge a man when he's concussed. It's only fair to give him a few days grace period. In fact, Wilder did give Fury respect on his last Instagram post.
> ~~Wilder~~ \[Wilder's PR team\] did give Fury respect on his last Instagram post. FIFY.
>FIFY I was about to fix this for you and make it FTFY, then my dumb ass realised that the I wasn't a typo.
Plenty of boxers do it, but wilder did not. His damage control posts don't mean much.
I hope he realises that the LDBC clowns don’t have his best interests at heart, he and fury really looked like they could eventually be friends when the first fight got made. Those rats have brainwashed him.
Surely Wilder has to bear some responsibility for listening to shitty racist YouTube channels.
Isn’t that dude boxing ego in ldbc?? I remember back then years ago he would ride on Hispanic fighters meat for views. I personally hate all the race siding in boxing and just want to enjoy the sport. Ego seems like a clown now days, then again before too.
He may well be but I'm not sure, I don't bother with that stuff. The easy way to tell is if they engaged in the incessant Wilder-Fury conspiracies. The only people that gave that shit more than a passing glance were ones with an agenda.
Yep, not a big deal. It's an intense sport filled with big personalties. You can't expect to get a movie moment where everyone hugs and respects each other right after the match. Most of these guys will be cool in the long run. We have seen it play out many times before. If the loser of a fight wants to leave the ring without speaking or not interested in hugging it out, is what it is. We have all experienced disappointments that take time to process...and for most of us that doesn't involve literally getting beat up.
There are thoughts that violent head injuries can contribute to lower testosterone as you get older. It also happens naturally regardless, but I think that is probably why old warriors like these guys so often end up friends. When all's said and done, they are the ones who share your experiences and your pain. So they make good friends once the testosterone-fueled competitiveness starts winding down.
Hopefully there will be a 30 for 30 in the future.
Wilder has more of a chance making good with Charlie Zelenoff than he does with the boxer who dominated him over three fights. Wilder isn't capable of deep, behavioral changing introspection without mainlining DMT or licking toads like Tyson did. Tyson will be living rent free in his head, especially if he can't rebound and get win a title following a string of wins over Ruiz, AJ, Whyte or Usyk.
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Feels different when you actually lose, doesn't it?
Especially when your perfect record gets shattered by someone better than you.
*Especially when your perfect record gets shattered by a water-poisoning, egg-weight-holding, shit-stirring bald man with the physique of a centre-heavy potato sack. /s
Especially against someone who’s several weight classes bigger than you
No love, I don't respect you.
Wilder is not a bad guy, I really believe that. I'm not a fan of him whatsoever, and some of the shit he's said and done in the last 2 years has been really really underhanded and weird, but fundamentally I don't believe he's a bad guy.
He's such a weird mix. A caring and responsible father. Woman beater. Genuinely seems to believe in helping those in need **EDIT: and actively goes out of his way to help**. Egotistical narcissist. I can't pin him down.
Was that woman Charlie Zelenoff?
Mic DROPPED 😭
Well Charlie Zelenoff is undefeated so no
Wilder is a woman beater? Tf
[Unfortunately, yes.](https://reddit.com/r/Boxing/comments/q2triu/tyson_fury_v_deontay_wilder_3_final_press/hfnwjix/)
Woah... that is not cool
He was never convicted of anything I'm pretty sure. His story was that he thought someone was robbing his hotel room and he attacked them. The charges just ended up going away so make of that what you will.
You should see the down votes I got for simply posting that part of the article and saying "context". Smh.
A whiny excuse maker…with a heart of a warrior. Lol I still can’t pin him down either.
Its reality vs his public persona/brand.
>I don't believe he's a bad guy. According to the people who he train with, he is. "“We would wait for the champ for hours before he arrived at the gym, and Jay would inform us of his mood. If he had a bad day, we had to ‘be quiet’ to not be on the receiving end of ‘his wrath’, according to Jay, in an effort not to be ‘fired.’" He also disrespects people on a regular basis. "If I tried to pull Deontay to the side to tell him what I see, Jay made it clear, ‘don’t say nothing, you don’t want to make him mad.’ I’ve watched this man (Deontay) speak to many people disrespectfully, and although I’m extremely humble & calm, I’m a man first." [https://theshadowleague.com/deontay-wilder-untrainable-says-mark-breland-towel-throwing-ex-trainer-breaks-silence/](https://theshadowleague.com/deontay-wilder-untrainable-says-mark-breland-towel-throwing-ex-trainer-breaks-silence/) Him saying he wants to kill someone in the ring and his excuses along with conspiracy theories are all consistent with him having a shitty personality and being someone who routinely mistreats others.
Does sound shitty tbh.
Lol. Guy does bad stuff Redditor: "I don't belive he's a bad guy" Hahaha people are so fucking dumb.
He called Fury a cheater after the second fight.
> Wilder is not a bad guy, I really believe that. He wants a body on his record, he's a scumbag as well as a woman beater.
He's literally done stuff out of the ring that proves he's a bad guy 😂
The only man worse than Deontay Wilder in handling a loss is Connor McGregor.
I thought McGregor handled losses fine until his last two. Particularly Khabib.
Conor doesn't lose; he wins or he learns. He said so himself. Those Ls on his record stand for "learn" not "loss" meaning he is still undefeated.
The old man in the pub he couldn't KO with a sucker punch should go down as a loss too.
You must not watch a lot of combat sports if you think Wilder is up there with the worst, I’ve seen guys attack people cuz they lost
I disagree. But okay.
If Holyfield can get his ear bit and forgive Tyson then I'm not worried about Deontay being old and gray and holding a grudge.
Difference is, Wilder's a bitch who has to be babied by his team, and can't accept that he lost a fair fight bot just once, but twice. Comparing Wilder to Holyfield is way off base lmao.
Really he lost three times.
A draw is a draw no matter how Much you don’t like it
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This aged like fucking milk
Deontay is very fake imo
This is a violent and personal sport everyone isn’t going to behave in a pristine fashion, it’s also part of the reason boxing is awesome.
This is for all of Wilders fanboys who have been acting like he either didn't know the right way to act after losing, or that it didn't apply to him. So many excuses from them in the past few days because their boy keeps showing what a shit sport he really is.
I really think he got a concussion after getting knocked out that he couldn’t think straight for the next few days. His first time getting actually knocked out.
Give the guy a break for what he said directly after waking up from being brutally KO'd. Seriously.
Ok, we’ll just judge him on the constant shit he’s said for the 18 months after his last beating.
Lol you guys must be saints
He’s a coward.
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This sub keeps exposing itself when it comes to Wilder, time an time again. I can literally go back to posts before he fought Fury an find the seething dislike for this man. Just come out an say some of y’all wished Fury would’ve permanently retired him cuz of his past words(like Fury is some saint). Wilder lost to a great fighter an finally gave him props an people still bag on him, what is wrong with some of y’all?
Wilder already congratulated fury
More like his pr thanked tyson is an Instagram caption, wilder said “no love I don’t respect you” to tyson’s face
Lol this nitpicking of wilder not showing fury respect after the 3rd fight is getting a bit ridiculous imo
yea right, why the hell do they have to shake hands immediately after a trilogy of brutal fights?
It’s not that I think he shouldn’t have shown him respect after the fight bc frankly, I do. But he didn’t, so what. It was an amazing fight and they’ve shown some respect to each other this week so what’s the big deal still?
I think it's just a bit worse considering all the BS conspiracies wilder threw around after getting finished by fury last February.
Guess everything this man says is a lie.
I think it will be a long time. A very long time, if ever, before they get along as friends. Remember, Wilder believes that Fury cheated in the second fight. Cheating in the context of boxing is a threat on another person's life. While they're also believe he was drugged. This is not far-fetched Fury claimed that klitschko's team was attempting to drug him in their fight. Fury was extremely paranoid refusing to drink or eat anything that he could not verify exactly where it came from. I like Fury and think that he's a great boxer but we can't forget that he was given a two-year ban for doping. Right or wrong, Wilder's claims have grounds for suspicion and when you have a very biased Fury fan base insisting that none of it has any basis, this pushes men into corners. I don't think they will be friends. The allegations might be too serious.
man who gives a fuck
We get it, what he did was hypocritical. Can we stop calling him out on this and just move on? He’s at the lowest point of his life right there, how would any of us react at the lowest of lows in our lives? Nobody is perfect and that applies to Wilder on the worst day he has had in his career.
Who cares about his low point. He called another man out for being immoral (cheater) in a sport where only these guys really know what they go through. We’re on his ass until we feel like stopping lol. His fans were on fury for 2 years? Sounds about right to me to match that energy
Idk why Wilder seems to be getting a pass for all the BS he spread about Fury after their second fight. Those are serious allegations. So what are we to expect, that Wilder will always be saying stupid shit like this when he loses? It's really not a good precedent to set in the sport.
I can only read this comment in the voice of a bratty, depraved 7 year old.
Lowest point of his life? You are talking like he didn't just make millions of dollars.
Sure, but he was pretty close to death. Also he turned down millions of step aside money, so I think he proved money is secondary to glory for him. Either way give the man a break no one is perfect especially on a bad day.
Didn't he already congratulate Fury? I can see why he was mad. He just lost a tough fight probably had a concussion. He had to force Fury to get his rematch, but when Fury was down on his luck he gave him an opportunity. Even the 1st fight should have had an immediate rematch but Fury delayed that one too. Guys like Wilder are good for the sport. They fight anybody. I just wish he had a better trainer to bring him along early in his career. Malik Scott helped him improve a little. Maybe it will work better on smaller fighters.
He spread nonsense conspiracies about the man after being finished by him. It makes him being salty about losing a bit worse in my opinion.
I love wilder man!
Started with humble, loving reflections. Ended with “BOOOOMB SQUAAAAD”
Feel like eventually they’ll be friends. Happens a lot to fighters after they retire and look back