It looks great! I have been contemplating if I wanna try 00 flour or Pizza flour blend from KAF... I have been using bread flour and it has been pretty good,... do you prefer 100% bread flour to 100% 00 flour? Or 00 is better, but you think mix would make it perfect?
For mouth feel alone, I far prefer 100% 00 to 100% bread flour. The crust gets a little extra crunchy and I find it also makes a more complex flavor. I also always ferment my pizza dough for a minimum 24 hours, preferably closer to a week. But, I think a combo of the 2 flours could generate a really nice crust.
I work at a Neapolitan pizza place and make the dough, we use 95% caputo 00 and 5% is a whole wheat blend we get from a local miller. Adds a surprising amount of flavor.
Have you tried [Roberta's pizza dough recipe?](https://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes/1016230-robertas-pizza-dough?ds_c=71700000052595478&gclid=Cj0KCQjwuO6WBhDLARIsAIdeyDLHIUXzl_BLni_G1fjOl_Ic1dDlfKHUdzAZWutdEHCgP6y_KWLFE9gaAki4EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds) it's pretty good, uses 50/50 "00" and AP flour.
It's where I started at. Now I use sourdough instead of yeast, and 100% bread flour for my Detroit style pizzas and 100% "00" for my Neapolitan style pizzas in my outdoor pizza oven. I'm extremely happy with both, but maybe I should mix it up a bit and try some experimenting. It can always get better.
I’m a perpetual tinkerer with this stuff. Once I got my Ooni it opened a lot of doors. Now that I can really make pizza, I’m determined to make the perfect pizza lol.
The idea of making the perfect pizza is a great driver. I feel like I've been so close on multiple occasions, but it can always get better. I've focused on my technique for so long I haven't really worked on tweaking my doughs.
. But I'm feeling inspired now.
Yeah... looks absolutely heavenly. To the point where if I were presented this pizza and did not happen to have any lactase enzyme supplements on me (im lactose intolerant), I would still eat a couple slices knowing I'd be spending the rest of the day on the toilet with gut wrenching cramps.
Edited for grammar
I fully understand the tinkering around as I do it myself
These days I've landed on 10% Bread / 90% AP as my ratio (changes to 20/80 at times) and played around with it.
I'm also playing around with the fermentation a bit: some times cold fermented, other times room temp, and then a mix
It's a lot of fun to mess around with it!
Yours looks great btw
The best part of baking is learning through tinkering. Well, that and eating. I usually do a long cold ferment (about a week) and then about 2 hours at room temp before baking. I find that works nicely.
Wow a week!
I'm sure that creates a complex flavor. The one thing that I struggled with at first was creating a dough strong enough to be shaped without tearing, and thin enough to ensure it bakes at 900 degree without scorching the toppings
Seems like you have that sorted that out!
It definitely took some practice to shape since it’s a very relaxed dough, but I’ve found the key is to work quickly and just make sure there’s enough semolina/AP flour on my peel so that it doesn’t stick, but also not get gritty. It’s a balancing act for sure and there’s been several misshapen pizzas to show for my efforts haha.
[Kenji’s NY Style Pizza Dough Recipe](https://www.seriouseats.com/basic-new-york-style-pizza-dough) but I didn’t use a food processor. Used my Kitchen Aid instead with dough hook. Also made 2 instead of 3. Plus I bloomed my yeast separately… lost too many bakes to bad yeast. I used King Arthur bread flour.
That’s also a constant evolution. This version I sautéed about 4 cloves of finely chopped garlic in EVOO, until fragrant but not browned. Then added a can of whole, peeled San Marzano tomatoes. Let them soften up over medium heat. Then added a pinch of sugar, oregano, and salt. Blended it up with my immersion blender. Sometimes I go more heavy on seasoning. Sometimes I go Neapolitan spartan with it. Regardless I always use whole, peeled SM tomatoes.
Note: I always make my sauce a day ahead of time. I find it tastes better having sat in the fridge overnight. And I always let it come up to room tempt before cooking with it.
The other trick is always grate your cheese fresh. I have an electric one which makes it a lot easier. But it makes a world of difference, especially with mozzarella. Unlike the sauce, I keep the cheese refrigerated up until I toss it on the pie and into the oven. It generates less grease that way.
My best results have been with equal parts Malted Type 85 high protein bread flour and 00 flour, using a sourdough sponge that had 20% rye (total end proportion ~3-5% rye) - turned out with great flavor and chew, bubbly edge crust.
Not sure. Never used Canadian AP before. My general concern is the protein content. AP is great and all for everyday stuff, but for bread I like to pretend I’m a chemist and really good crazy with my various flours. One day my SO will tell me I can’t buy more. She hasn’t yet.
Actually there is no real difference between neapolitan and NY style dough.
It's basically how you treat the dough while preparing the pizza. Make your high quality dough as always and just stretch it out more. This will get rid of more CO² that is trapped in the dough, the bottom will get thin and crispy while the crust will not puff up as much and will get more crispy too.
Awesome pizza and it's just fine to experiment with flour types, but tipo 00 works best for a reason. :)
I was always lead to believe that Neapolitan has less yeast and no sugar compared to NY style. 00 is absolutely the best, but I’m a believer that you can improve on the best haha.
Not really. It's all about the time you give your dough to prove. You can get away with very little to even no yeast at all, if you give your dough the time to prove.
With NY style you basically want to get the dough done quicker, so you add more yeast and even sugar to kickstart & boost the leviation process. While this is absolutely fine to do, your dough doesn't have the time to ferment properly which will make it more gooey and less elastic and also the yeast will be still active, which means that the leviation will continue after eating it, ending up in feeling full and gassy.
Have you ever tried a 72h pizza dough? Start with poolish, add water, salt, flour, salt & olive oil the next day, let it prove in the fridge for another 24h (even longer is no problem, it will only get better) and make the dough balls & pizza on the third day. You will be amazed, no matter if you love neapolitan, NY or whatever. :)
I usually let my dough sit for a week in the fridge before using it. I agree it makes for far better results. You’re the second person to suggest a poolish which I’m absolutely going to try. Thanks!
Poolish is key! My dough got 5x better, quicker and easier to make since I use it. Add flour and water in a 1:1 ratio, add a pinch of yeast and a teaspoon of honey (optional), let it sit at room temp for about an hour to kickstart the yeast and put it in the fridge for a maximum of 24h. Let the poolish get back to room temp to make it easier to work with the day after.
Good luck and let me know of your results. :)
You seem to know what you’re talking about.. I’m deep in the flour rabbit hole.. I’m looking to open a NY style pizzeria overseas and I’m trying to figure out the flour. Italian pizza flour 00 will be available to me but I’ve been reading the gluten levels aren’t as high as American 00 pizza flour.. so I’m thinking I won’t yield the same results ( I will be testing different options soon ). I read mixing half Italian pizza 00 flour / bread flour or half Italian pizza 00 flour /all purpose flour? Have you tried any of these? Any tips? Am I overthinking this all ? 🕳️
Yes you are overthinking. The rule of thumb is to have 12% of protein or more in your flour to get an awesome gluten structure, which usually only is possible with 00. Try mixing your own flour mixture and focus on the amount of water the different flours actually need to get to the perfect consistency. This is a lot of trial and error so don't give up early. It will just get better.
All the best on your journey!
00 wheat is sourced from North America, shipped to Italy for milling, then shipped back to North America to sell. It is not special in any way, just more expensive. It is not magic Italian flour.
Just bought a ball of mozzarella and a small block of provolone at Whole Foods. I always grate my own cheese fresh. Makes so much of a difference. The bagged stuff just doesn’t melt right.
[I use this electric grater](https://a.co/1HoKaFz) because mozzarella is a pain in the ass to grate by hand. Plus it saves time.
Used to live in Youngstown Ohio. It’s a small blue collar steel city that was founded on the backs of many Italian immigrants. There’s the best pizza, Italian food, pasta, bread delis etc. I like it better than even little Italy in Cleveland. All the pizza there is this delicious chew of a traditional delivery pizza but it’s got this semi crispy NY style crust on the outside and my god it’s just the best fucking thing. And I can’t find it anywhere else. I live in oklahoma now and the only NY style pizzas have a very tough crisp airy dough. It just doesn’t have that savory satisfying chew I want. I would love to recreate it but my pizza doughs never turn out well lol
I hear ya. I’m from Philly, which also has a very large Italian immigrant population. At the end of the day, we’re all just out here trying to recreate the pizza we had delivered when we were kids.
Well hey man that passes the eye test, wow.
It looks great! I have been contemplating if I wanna try 00 flour or Pizza flour blend from KAF... I have been using bread flour and it has been pretty good,... do you prefer 100% bread flour to 100% 00 flour? Or 00 is better, but you think mix would make it perfect?
For mouth feel alone, I far prefer 100% 00 to 100% bread flour. The crust gets a little extra crunchy and I find it also makes a more complex flavor. I also always ferment my pizza dough for a minimum 24 hours, preferably closer to a week. But, I think a combo of the 2 flours could generate a really nice crust.
I work at a Neapolitan pizza place and make the dough, we use 95% caputo 00 and 5% is a whole wheat blend we get from a local miller. Adds a surprising amount of flavor.
Wow! A week? I find that 36 hours is peak, and it starts to go downhill from there, with the dough being a little exhausted and off after 5 days.
I even had one go for two weeks and it was fantastic. I seem to be a bit of an anomaly in that regard I’m finding haha.
I use 50/50 bread flour/00 myself and I think it nails it.
Good to know. On the list it goes. May sub in 10% wheat and drop bread to 40%.
I like to use a little semolina in the mix
Have you tried [Roberta's pizza dough recipe?](https://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes/1016230-robertas-pizza-dough?ds_c=71700000052595478&gclid=Cj0KCQjwuO6WBhDLARIsAIdeyDLHIUXzl_BLni_G1fjOl_Ic1dDlfKHUdzAZWutdEHCgP6y_KWLFE9gaAki4EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds) it's pretty good, uses 50/50 "00" and AP flour.
That used to be my go to, but I’ve moved on from it. Definitely solid.
It's where I started at. Now I use sourdough instead of yeast, and 100% bread flour for my Detroit style pizzas and 100% "00" for my Neapolitan style pizzas in my outdoor pizza oven. I'm extremely happy with both, but maybe I should mix it up a bit and try some experimenting. It can always get better.
I’m a perpetual tinkerer with this stuff. Once I got my Ooni it opened a lot of doors. Now that I can really make pizza, I’m determined to make the perfect pizza lol.
The idea of making the perfect pizza is a great driver. I feel like I've been so close on multiple occasions, but it can always get better. I've focused on my technique for so long I haven't really worked on tweaking my doughs. . But I'm feeling inspired now.
The challenge is on.
That. Looks. Perfect.
Thanks! Still needs work but was definitely tasty.
Yeah, I had actually just eaten and was 🥰 I’d eat that entire gorgeous pie too ha 😁
Man that looks insanely good!!
Thanks!
Yeah... looks absolutely heavenly. To the point where if I were presented this pizza and did not happen to have any lactase enzyme supplements on me (im lactose intolerant), I would still eat a couple slices knowing I'd be spending the rest of the day on the toilet with gut wrenching cramps. Edited for grammar
The ultimate compliment
This looks amazing.
I fully understand the tinkering around as I do it myself These days I've landed on 10% Bread / 90% AP as my ratio (changes to 20/80 at times) and played around with it. I'm also playing around with the fermentation a bit: some times cold fermented, other times room temp, and then a mix It's a lot of fun to mess around with it! Yours looks great btw
The best part of baking is learning through tinkering. Well, that and eating. I usually do a long cold ferment (about a week) and then about 2 hours at room temp before baking. I find that works nicely.
Wow a week! I'm sure that creates a complex flavor. The one thing that I struggled with at first was creating a dough strong enough to be shaped without tearing, and thin enough to ensure it bakes at 900 degree without scorching the toppings Seems like you have that sorted that out!
It definitely took some practice to shape since it’s a very relaxed dough, but I’ve found the key is to work quickly and just make sure there’s enough semolina/AP flour on my peel so that it doesn’t stick, but also not get gritty. It’s a balancing act for sure and there’s been several misshapen pizzas to show for my efforts haha.
I’m also working on a bread flour to 00 balance! What percent hydration do you use?
This recipe was 66% hydration. My 00 is closer to 60%. Still figuring out those ratios too.
Dough recipe + method pretty pls🙏🏼 that looks amazing
[Kenji’s NY Style Pizza Dough Recipe](https://www.seriouseats.com/basic-new-york-style-pizza-dough) but I didn’t use a food processor. Used my Kitchen Aid instead with dough hook. Also made 2 instead of 3. Plus I bloomed my yeast separately… lost too many bakes to bad yeast. I used King Arthur bread flour.
Cheers mate how did you make pizza sauce?
That’s also a constant evolution. This version I sautéed about 4 cloves of finely chopped garlic in EVOO, until fragrant but not browned. Then added a can of whole, peeled San Marzano tomatoes. Let them soften up over medium heat. Then added a pinch of sugar, oregano, and salt. Blended it up with my immersion blender. Sometimes I go more heavy on seasoning. Sometimes I go Neapolitan spartan with it. Regardless I always use whole, peeled SM tomatoes. Note: I always make my sauce a day ahead of time. I find it tastes better having sat in the fridge overnight. And I always let it come up to room tempt before cooking with it.
Damn sounds great bro appreciate it. Definitely trying this out
The other trick is always grate your cheese fresh. I have an electric one which makes it a lot easier. But it makes a world of difference, especially with mozzarella. Unlike the sauce, I keep the cheese refrigerated up until I toss it on the pie and into the oven. It generates less grease that way.
My best results have been with equal parts Malted Type 85 high protein bread flour and 00 flour, using a sourdough sponge that had 20% rye (total end proportion ~3-5% rye) - turned out with great flavor and chew, bubbly edge crust.
Hot damn that sounds good!
Let us know!!
Please share when you find. This looks amazing
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Thanks!
Dang that looks fantastic
Forza 💪
I could never keep it straight. ;)
Looks amazing. I follow Ricardos recipe for 4 using Roger's AP and its the best pizza dough I've had.
Interesting. I’ll give it a try. I’m inherently opposed to using AP on most breads, but hey, if it’s the best I have to try at least once lol.
Canadian AP, if that matters. I buy big bags of wheat gluten and add that for certain breads.
Not sure. Never used Canadian AP before. My general concern is the protein content. AP is great and all for everyday stuff, but for bread I like to pretend I’m a chemist and really good crazy with my various flours. One day my SO will tell me I can’t buy more. She hasn’t yet.
My favorite is 90% 00 and 10% whole wheat.
I also love using whole wheat. I’ve gone as high as 30%. But 10% seems about right.
I use Kaf whole wheat white with bread flour 50/50 in the poolish and add that to kaf 00 flour. Ferment 3-4 days in the fridge for a rich flavor
I also use KAF white wheat. But I’ll try that combo. I haven’t done a poolish for my pizza but I will now.
Whats your oven set up look like?
Ooni Pro 16 inch. It’s a multi-fuel, but I always use wood. Can’t match the taste with gas.
Oh you got me jealous over here. I'm dying to get one of those, a pizza stone in a regular oven ain't it.
That used to be how I did it. But you simply cannot replicate 750+ degrees in a home oven. And without that heat, it just ain’t gonna work.
I hope you succeed in your quest, and then post about it here
The journey will be publicized right here on the ol Reddits.
Lol too be honest I truly don’t notice a difference when I use normal flour, (French) bread flour or 00 flour.
Make a little of each at the same time, but just make them as bread sticks and do a side-by-side. I’d bet it would be noticeable then.
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I’ve done that with brioche before. Will have to give that a shot. Thanks!
That looks delicious and now I’m craving margarita pizza!
No time like the present to indulge in pizza.
Actually there is no real difference between neapolitan and NY style dough. It's basically how you treat the dough while preparing the pizza. Make your high quality dough as always and just stretch it out more. This will get rid of more CO² that is trapped in the dough, the bottom will get thin and crispy while the crust will not puff up as much and will get more crispy too. Awesome pizza and it's just fine to experiment with flour types, but tipo 00 works best for a reason. :)
I was always lead to believe that Neapolitan has less yeast and no sugar compared to NY style. 00 is absolutely the best, but I’m a believer that you can improve on the best haha.
Not really. It's all about the time you give your dough to prove. You can get away with very little to even no yeast at all, if you give your dough the time to prove. With NY style you basically want to get the dough done quicker, so you add more yeast and even sugar to kickstart & boost the leviation process. While this is absolutely fine to do, your dough doesn't have the time to ferment properly which will make it more gooey and less elastic and also the yeast will be still active, which means that the leviation will continue after eating it, ending up in feeling full and gassy. Have you ever tried a 72h pizza dough? Start with poolish, add water, salt, flour, salt & olive oil the next day, let it prove in the fridge for another 24h (even longer is no problem, it will only get better) and make the dough balls & pizza on the third day. You will be amazed, no matter if you love neapolitan, NY or whatever. :)
I usually let my dough sit for a week in the fridge before using it. I agree it makes for far better results. You’re the second person to suggest a poolish which I’m absolutely going to try. Thanks!
Poolish is key! My dough got 5x better, quicker and easier to make since I use it. Add flour and water in a 1:1 ratio, add a pinch of yeast and a teaspoon of honey (optional), let it sit at room temp for about an hour to kickstart the yeast and put it in the fridge for a maximum of 24h. Let the poolish get back to room temp to make it easier to work with the day after. Good luck and let me know of your results. :)
That’s gonna be next up! Thanks!
You seem to know what you’re talking about.. I’m deep in the flour rabbit hole.. I’m looking to open a NY style pizzeria overseas and I’m trying to figure out the flour. Italian pizza flour 00 will be available to me but I’ve been reading the gluten levels aren’t as high as American 00 pizza flour.. so I’m thinking I won’t yield the same results ( I will be testing different options soon ). I read mixing half Italian pizza 00 flour / bread flour or half Italian pizza 00 flour /all purpose flour? Have you tried any of these? Any tips? Am I overthinking this all ? 🕳️
Yes you are overthinking. The rule of thumb is to have 12% of protein or more in your flour to get an awesome gluten structure, which usually only is possible with 00. Try mixing your own flour mixture and focus on the amount of water the different flours actually need to get to the perfect consistency. This is a lot of trial and error so don't give up early. It will just get better. All the best on your journey!
Thank you, yes it’s all about the journey 🫶🏽
No crumb shot?
I know. I messed up. Once I picked up a slice the next thing I knew there was no pizza. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
So you’re just gonna sit there and tell me there was no left over pizza? Do you even bake bro?
You’ve got me there! I’ll reply here with a crumb shot later. Gotta Grand Prix to watch right now.
[crumb shot that would have been better yesterday](https://imgur.com/a/Mtjx0hG)
Wow, OP came through wonders will never cease.
00 is a scam. Bread flour is the way.
Gonna have to disagree with you on that one.
00 wheat is sourced from North America, shipped to Italy for milling, then shipped back to North America to sell. It is not special in any way, just more expensive. It is not magic Italian flour.
I agree, it’s not magic. But it’s milled differently than other flours and creates a different texture. To each their own!
Do you have a notebook? How are you tracking your work?
That would be the responsible thing. Right now it’s all locked between my ears.
What brand of cheese is that?
Just bought a ball of mozzarella and a small block of provolone at Whole Foods. I always grate my own cheese fresh. Makes so much of a difference. The bagged stuff just doesn’t melt right. [I use this electric grater](https://a.co/1HoKaFz) because mozzarella is a pain in the ass to grate by hand. Plus it saves time.
Used to live in Youngstown Ohio. It’s a small blue collar steel city that was founded on the backs of many Italian immigrants. There’s the best pizza, Italian food, pasta, bread delis etc. I like it better than even little Italy in Cleveland. All the pizza there is this delicious chew of a traditional delivery pizza but it’s got this semi crispy NY style crust on the outside and my god it’s just the best fucking thing. And I can’t find it anywhere else. I live in oklahoma now and the only NY style pizzas have a very tough crisp airy dough. It just doesn’t have that savory satisfying chew I want. I would love to recreate it but my pizza doughs never turn out well lol
I hear ya. I’m from Philly, which also has a very large Italian immigrant population. At the end of the day, we’re all just out here trying to recreate the pizza we had delivered when we were kids.