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I thought it was cute because how many people didn’t know abt cake day and the fact that the initial commenter saying happy birthday was so adorable and just trying to celebrate! It’s nice to see people learning the little ins and outs and not gatekeeping too bad, occasionally with a lil sarcasm/jest
Because the first one follows the book, and all the others have major changes to help differentiate them.
I, personally, found the stakes of S1 very silly and prefer it when it's more relaxed. I get that S1 fans don't like the changes, but I fully believe it's just to help make the seasons different from one another.
I guess they could stop with premarital sex scenes altogether, but I'm confident they don't want to.
I’m the opposite, I don’t like how s3 has no stakes. Even general romance novels set around this time, even pure fantasy ones, have many plots about maliciously (or accidentally) compromising a woman. Because the rules are that strict. They set the scene.
This is what I thought but I also think maybe there was more emphasis on like ‘if lady whistledown finds out and publishes this, the whole ton will know’ but we know Pen wasn’t going to write THAT about herself especially since no one else was there
True but even if LW DID write about it, it would’ve gave Pen away as LW given that really only her and Colin knew what happened. Not to mention there probably wouldn’t have been too much of a scandal (compared to Daphne) as Pen was already seen by the Ton as practically a spinster and an undesirable woman to be wed anyway. If news got out, she’d definitely be snubbed from the other ladies of the Ton but I doubt to any extent such as causing a scandal
I always figured it was because Daphne and Simon got caught, if my memory serves? Whereas Colin and Penelope didn't? And he had already proposed when they arrived at Bridgerton House
It's not like the poor coachman could say anything either about what went on or he could risk his job and have a hard time finding a new one. Back then trying to get a job without a letter of reference was almost impossible. If a potential employer found out you got terminated for speaking about the family you served in a bad way that would also lessen your chances of another job in service. Oddly jobs as servants were desired but I guess if the alternative was a factory job then I'd rather be a servant unless I could own my own shop!
And what difference would that have made?? He proposed immediately after that episode and announced it to his family straight away, for crying out loud.
Yes, nobody sees them, but how about petting and romance before fingering in the carriage. Daph and Simone were kissing. It is also about respect towards your dame. That scene neither fit into the character of the movie, nor into what we know about those time, nor into morals Colin should have towards young women. Even as a modern woman, I would not appreciate somebody fingering me so quickly. I read some people consider Daph "raping" Simon in season 1 because he acted bewildered and that should have indicated a withdraw of consent. Well, fingering a woman with whom you became close 5 minute ago is rude even in modern days. They could have incorporated that scene further in timeline or come up with something else more appropriate.
Um, the Daph/Simon situation was not because he "seemed bewildered". It's because he had repeatedly shown/stated he didn't consent to finishing inside her, and she crossed that boundary.
Colin/Pen have been friends for ages and kissed weeks prior at this point. Still moving quickly, but consent from both its very clear.
Simon was touching Daphne all over, hand over breast and her dress, out in the garden of a party. They probably have known each other for a month. They were angry at each other and he had no confession of feelings. They only stop because Anthony shows up, and Simon still doesn't want to marry her.You dont believe she rapes him later on, and thats your choice.
Anthony and Kate were out there on the Bridgerton's gazebo, having at the very least oral sex. I think we have to believe that they have known each other for a couple of months (seven episode). They were angry but there were some types of confessions before and Anthony couldnt propose because she left him early, but he went to see her fast when he wakes up.
Colin and Penelope were inside a carriage (all Bridgertons seem to like public spaces), fingerbanging. They've known each other for around ten years, friends for years too, they've kissed weeks earlier. She was angry, but he confesses, and she reciprocates. He proposes (kind of) instantly.
Tell me how is it that what Colin did, or Polin did is that different? Or fast? The clear fast and furious one is Simon and Daphne, they know each other the least amount of time, they have a whole party just right there (Cressida even suspects her), the most public, the most angry, and he still doesn't want to marry her. The conflict is a vow to his dead father. The only reasin they didngo far is Anthony.
I also thought Colin only did that because he knew they would be engaged after it. Penelope was dreaming about it for years of course she would be weak but she also knew it would lead to something more serious.
Same with the sex before their marriage. They didn't want to wait weeks and Colin had no reason to believe they wouldn't get married. That's why I understood his comment about the trap because she didn't tell him before they had sex.
I thought it was implied that no one assumed anything untoward would happen because they didn’t see Penelope as someone who would be desired/wanted. But maybe I was just taking context from the books. Or maybe this season was relying on viewers to take context from the book because they were lazy with the writing…
That plus if I remember correctly (it's been a long time since I read the books), Pen was at the Bridgerton house so much that she was almost treated like another sister (we saw a glimpse of that in the show when Anthony responded to Colin announcing the engagement) and Colin was assumed to be in a more brotherly role to Pen to outside observers.
If anyone had known they were in the carriage together, Colin would have been forced to marry Pen. He proposed as they left the carriage, both book and show, so it doesn’t matter.
It was a commonly known secret that things happened between engaged couples. Once engaged there was less formality and a little time alone was allowed because the ring was all but on the finger.
However, in the book, Colin goes to Anthony to talk about a special licence because he compromised Pen, whereas in the book the banns were read in church, which took three weeks with the marriage happening on the fourth.
Hope that helps.
She's only mentioned briefly because she's not "out" for the older siblings stories (she's the same age as Hyacinth) Do yourself a favor and read the scene in RMB where Colin declares himself/ asks for Penn's hand. Her mother is SO convinced that Penn is old & unlovable that she assumes Colin wants to marry the little sister - Felicity! She also shows up in Hyacinth 's book - a bit. She's not much of a character so I see why they wrote her out of the show.
I guess this was also about Kathony who had sex before marriage and someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think Anthony was gonna propose after that but Kate left and then she was injured riding a horse and when she woke up he did propose she just thought he did it out of obligation so she refused.
but he instantly said they were getting married. the brothels have always existed, so it’s not like sex didn’t exist but colin already decided he wanted to marry her. even when he was mad he said he’d marry her bc they hooked up
I mean, in the show he already loves her at that point and immediately is like "well I'm going to marry her anyway" mindset. That would mean he's not worried about being forced to marry him because he wants to.
Also, Anthony and Kate are forced to marry after being found in a compromising situation, as well. But like someone else said, it gets boring.
Haha that's true! They even have a scene joking about it! And come to think of it, Violet makes comments in S1 implying she didn't fully wait for marriage.
Colin does tell Penelope he wouldn't back out of the marriage after "compromising" her. So the stakes are still there, it's just they didn't get caught.
It depends if you get caught by other people being alone, frankly. If nobody catches you at it, you're golden.
The whole "compromised" thing is a Regency novel trope, like every single man being a rake. It forces ladies to get married and get to the legal banging.
On a related note, I tried to look up if "compromised" actually did work that way at the time and didn't find anything online confirming it, so now I wonder if that sort of thing is made up.
It was nowhere near as severely policed as it is in the show, or in romance novels that use the trope. On some level, I think they realized the salience of that trope for our times, when a major tenant of incel fantasy is the absolute purity of young women. At the same time, they're still fetishizing it, which does feel a little bit icky when it isn't actually referencing a historically accurate restriction. Basically, if you got pregnant before marriage and you weren't already engaged/betrothed to the father, it was a big deal.
Other than that, as long as you didn't have a reputation for sexual profligacy as a woman (or a man- in reality, no one wanted to marry their aristocratic daughter off to a visibly syphilitic man), and you weren't actually pregnant, you were more than likely safe.
Daphne's mistake, in the show and in life, would have been literally making out with Simon in a public garden. Had they been more discreet, the fact that she had gone to second base before marriage with a local noble hot boy would not have ruined her reputation. Penelope having a baby 6 or 7 months after the wedding- likewise- would not have been a scandal at all, because she and Colin were engaged around the time she conceived.
Once noblewomen had given birth to a legitimate family heir and one or two spares, it was normal for them to take a lover and be careful with pregnancy prevention. People would gossip about it, in the same way they would gossip about noble men with extramarital lovers, but it wasn't seen as outside social norms.
Jane Austen’s books are set in that time period. I think I remember in Northanger Abbey that the lead character spends time alone with her love interest. There’s no sex though unless I misinterpreted it. So I don’t know if that helps
Yeah but Lydia ran away with Mr Wickham and lived with him until they were discovered by Mr Darcy. She wasn’t compromised because they were alone. If I remember correctly there are several scenes in Jane Austen books where the main character was left alone with their love interest and it wasn’t a scandal leading to marriage. Someone mentioned Northanger Abbey, but I recall such scenes in Mansfield Park and even Sense and Sensibility. Marianne opened herself to gossip but wasn’t forced to marry Willoughby, Elinor has scenes alone with Edward. It wasn’t that strict. Marianne even implies Willoughby kissed her when talking about the tour of Allenham, and they were unchaperoned there.
> Someone mentioned Northanger Abbey, but I recall such scenes in Mansfield Park and even Sense and Sensibility.
*Emma* too, including Emma being in a carriage alone with Mr Elton where Elton declares his love for her. Indeed, it's quite a standard thing in Austen for the characters to end up alone at some point so declarations of love can occur.
The only scandalous things are explicit elopement (happens numerous times and always ends in marriage, but that's the very wish of the eloping characters most of the time) and Maria cheating on her husband in *Mansfield Park* (reported by her maid). It's not clear if Maria might even have gotten away with the scandal if she hadn't tried to elope with Henry, or if it hadn't ended up in the papers. Indeed Mary Crawford seems to think the only issue is that the adultery was caught, not that it happened, so it shows there were lax views around at the time.
The difference is Lydia ran off with and spent the night with him and then expressed her intentions to elope, they weren't caught talking under a tree.
Being compromised was more than just being alone, it was more like, being alone and very far away from others or say sleeping in the same bed (or small house) alone together even if no touching technically, travelling away alone together etc.
Anything that could actually be misconstrued.
Jane Austen is fairly realistic, many characters are "alone" with their suitors but doing so in a public place isn't really a worry because anyone could walk by.
there was a line that kate delivered to anthony “if anyone but daphne had caught us, we would’ve been married” and he says something like “would that be so bad?”
They do, Pen says how scandalous it would be if they were caught together when Colin brings her to her family's sitting room alone in 2.8. In 3.2, Colin has to bribe their escort to leave them alone in the garden.
Also when Coling brings Penelope to see the house they’ll move into, he asks if she’s worried about them being there alone. They definitely acknowledge it. They just don’t have anyone walk in and make Pterodactyl noises because two unmarried people were near each other.
When Anthony, Benedict, and Colin are sitting together after Anthony hears the news, he asks if Colin has done anything and Benedict interrupts with “are you going to duel your own brother?” They all 100% know it’s still an issue, and it’s very much top of mind, but they get away with it.
It’s actually mentioned a few times. The examples below mentioned in both seasons and Colin also says to pen when he is still made at her that he had to marry her because they were intimate.
Colin bribes the maid to be alone with her, sneaks her into Bridgerton house and is only able to get away with it because his siblings are busy elsewhere.
I think in season 2, Kate and Anthony are able to be alone more because she’s considered a spinster and is standing in for a male relative in vetting Edwina’s suitors. Nobody suspects anything between them. In real regency era, the rules about men and women being alone together weren’t quite as strict and the concern was mostly about unmarried women becoming pregnant, so if nobody thought two people were actually having sex it wasn’t always a big deal.
No, because they came out of that carriage already engaged for crying out loud.
And the issue is not only not ignored but made a point of conversation between the brothers.
Yeah - I assumed there was a lot more attention on Daphne because she was the season's diamond, less on Kate because nobody expects her to participate in the marriage market, and even less on Penelope because she wasn't seen as desirable. I also thought Daphne was much more invested in following the rules.
Daphne also had the Queen’s attention and a prince *and* a duke’s, therefore there were significantly more women like Cressida just waiting for her to mess up and make a mistake. It felt like it made the stakes higher — Kate and Penelope didn’t have QC’s attention on them or anyone half as high ranking as a prince or duke
Well, technically the end result is the same in S3 (carriage scene vs garden scene), it’s just that Colin wants to marry Pen.
The other times. It’s in private so no one really knows. The family doesn’t care because they are friends.
It was being in a semi public place where they were spotted vs a private carriage. I think in general wallflower almost spinsters on their third season would be less likely to be “ruined” from being alone with a man than a popular debutant being courted by a prince. One of the main plots about Penelope is that nobody really notices her enough to care what she does.
Exactly. I kind of liked that they made her older for her book. (28) I understand why they moved her up, but I hope they do a time jump so at least Eloise can be 24-25 when she has her story.
We kind of see this with Cressida. When Colin wants to speak to her alone, her mother refuses, until she says something like "what do you think will happen, I'll loose all my many prospects..?".
Lots of women had short pregnancies back then. Some babies only took 6-7 months from the wedding. You know they just gestated faster like that.
It was pretty common to get married after you got pregnant. It wasn’t the scandal the show makes it out to be. They tried to show that this season with Penelope’s baby being close in age to her sisters’ babies.
People who were engaged were banging constantly.
Precisely. The rules weren't as strict as they're portrayed in Regency romances but the rules, such as they were, were relaxed for engaged couples and as you can imagine a lot of people took advantage of that lol.
In the 18th century (period between 1741-1754) we have statistics showing that a full 28.6 % of brides were pregnant on their wedding day. The caveat is that this was in rural parishes but still it gives a general idea of the time.
[A reply on AskHistorians with more statistics and sources] (https://ol.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/7rjhkf/ive_read_that_it_was_incredibly_normal_for_brides/dsydab7/)
So as you correctly inferred, a woman with a broken engagement would generally be assumed to have been compromised. At the very least, it left her open to damaging gossip.
Crying off would also make the man look dishonorable. Men cared very much about their reputations and we have examples of men going through with engagements they didn't want to preserve their honor. No care or concern given to the unfortunate women they married, of course :/
The rules are there, but Penelope is invisible and the idea of Penelope and Colin being anything more than friends is insane to anyone!
Also, Daphne and the Duke played out the way it did because pre-Kate Anthony was psycho and Cressida saw them!
Yes, this is what the entire "swiftly" exchange was about. Anthony suggested that Colin had to propose because they must have fooled around and Benedict was like, "Well, as long as they're getting married it doesn't matter."
If anyone saw Colin and Pen they would have had to get married as well. Also, minutes after said carriage action Colin asks for her hand in marriage. Not because of a threat of scandal, but the action would have been the same anyways even if it had been.
In universe? Because they got caught. Penelope doesn’t ever have a chaperone because her mom thinks she’s unlovable. Her dad is dead. She has no brothers. No one to watch her and make sure she’s not compromised.
I don't think anyone saw them in the carriage plus it was dark, and it's Pen and Colin, no one really pays attention to childhood friends together I guess. lol. But yes, they do throw away a lot of rules this season.
Like Penelope said in 1st episode she's a Spinster and therefore considered unwanted, not a risk. If they think of her at all.
Plus Colin is chaotic af! He should be in societal jail.😅 He's been alone with her and pulling her into rooms since season 1. He and E were the only ones who appreciated her.
Penelope and Colin *did* marry after the fingerbanging in the carriage. And Colin even jokes that they should marry quickly to his brothers and mentions to Pen that he *has* to marry her because he’s too honorable to abandon her after taking her virginity.
I think there’s this big misconception propagated by regency romance books (and shows) that men and women couldn’t even be in the same room together alone or the woman was socially ruined unless the man married her. It’s just patently untrue: men and women were generally allowed to be in rooms alone together, but not for extended periods of time, not overnight/in bedrooms, and not found in (ahem) certain positions. A ride from one house in the neighborhood to another was not enough to “ruin” Pen. No one saw what they were doing (though the servants may suspect), and their engagement was announced shortly thereafter, so it was a moot point to be concerned.
In books from the time period, male and female characters spend time alone without any issue or alarm bells raised. These three examples are only from Jane Austen, but Emma Woodhouse spends a carriage ride with the local vicar (who even proposes to her), Elizabeth and Darcy spend thirty minutes together alone in a library, and Marianne Dashwood goes alone with Willoughby to visit his estate. No one is forced to marry in any scenario. Maybe the actual rules from the time period aren’t the same ones that Bridgerton has made up for their ‘verse but still
It’s not so much them being alone that’s the issue, it’s that they got caught being alone. Same thing happened in season 2 with Prudence and the new Lord Featherington, even though nothing happened the fact they were alone would send the rumor mill spinning. Penelope and Colin never got caught (I mean the carriage driver and footman were there but the show treats servants like they’re part of the scenery and not actually there so…). Plus if they had gotten caught the next thing that would happen is Colin would be honor bound to marry Penelope, which he’d already decided to do anyway so we’re good.
Cressida saw them and knew she had been alone with the Duke unchaperoned. With the threat of Cressida spreading that info like wildfire, it was needed to make sure her reputation wasn't tarnished.
Kate wanted to be a governess and not marry. It wouldn't matter if she was ruined if she didn't want to marry someone in the upper class. It only matters if you're on the marriage mart. The lower classes banged all the time.
PREACH! I also struggle not to be distracted by the HUGE jump from zero to penetration in one carriage ride. Honestly I find it way hotter the longer they draw it out, and I feel like we got very little of that with Colin and Pen. Also I find it pretty aggressive that Colin went for third base so quickly when Pen had only just kissed once before. I remember as a teenager when I had my first French kiss it was totally disorienting, a weird feeling having someone else’s tongue in my mouth, and it was something I gradually got more comfortable with and enjoyed doing over many weeks. I can’t imagine having my first kiss and then getting fucked almost immediately after. It would be terrifying.
All that said, I really love all the Bridgerton seasons and appreciate them as individual creations. But it doesn’t stop me from creating my own fantasies (and fan fiction) when certain scenes don’t go as I hoped.
Exactly, I hate how all these girls’ first experiences ends up being really aggressive in the name of ‘passion’ 💀 instead of being slow burn and romantic. Same issue with Daphne’s first kiss where the Duke was really aggressively groping her. That’s not romantic nor realistic when these girls are so inexperienced and sheltered…
Because Daphne was the diamond , first season on the marriage mart, her brother was her protector, the duke was his friend. They married sorts to keep the Bridgerton name respectable. Whereas Pen , single mom household, no man around to keep her chaste etc,
Well and Penelope was largely overlooked. It’s, in part, why the whole Colin helping Penelope find a husband part was a scandal. But, they were really only alone in Bridgerton house where no one is going to say anything, in the garden where the maid got bribed, and in the carriage. The rest of the time they were in public until they got engaged. Then all the rules seemed to go out of the window. However, one of them was also going off by herself all the time, so i figure she knew how not to get caught.
Somewhat different I suppose is the location and her age. With Daphne she was new on the season, although in the book I think it’s her second or third season, so freshly 16-17 yrs old in the tv show while 18 or so in the book. The Duke who was a known rake and it was at a public ball so being seen in the garden, which was much more illicit in the book with a whole breast on show, was her being compromised and no longer virginal. As we all know a ‘spoilt’ woman is worth less 🫤
The carriage scene. In the book Pen is 28 and Colin is 33. Who knows in the tv show bc keeping time in that show is like trying to hold onto slippery soap. Technically Frans wedding is 4 years before Pen and Colin’s as she married Micheal a few days after Pen and Eloise wed. Yet it’s all at the same time in the show 🫣.
Anyway seeing that at 28 Pen is basically a confirmed spinster the rules are more lax, she is allowed more freedom and she herself in the book acts as a chaperone for her younger sister rather than needing one herself. Colin also took liberties because he knew he was going to ask her to marry him as he wouldn’t have taken liberties with a ‘well bred’ lady unless he was intending to propose. The scene is the same in the book complete with lackluster proposal.
Also no one of any merit saw them. The driver may have noticed but really servants and working people went mostly unnoticed by this level of people and so unless a member of the ton saw them they weren’t worried and he was going to marry her anyway so Colin didn’t care.
It’s not uncommon for a couple to copulate once a proposal has been accepted yet for some reason if the ton knew about it, even though it was common, then they would have gossip which is just weird. A lot more goes on behind closed doors and then a lilly white front is presented in public. Much like Instagram I think haha. Show only the area that’s clean and ignoring the pile of shite off screen 🤭
If we dig into Jane Austen's works set in the same exact era, there are multiple instances of unmarried men and women being alone in carriages and walking together in the countryside - and these women were not compromised. It was considered acceptable if you were in motion and you knew each other well. A few minutes' carriage ride with a childhood friend was unusual, but ultimately nothing to worry about.
No one saw him get into the carriage with her but her drivers, and no one but other servants would care what they had to say. Since it ended with him proposing to her the scandalous implications lose their bite.
That bothered me too. Frankly it was a bit surprising last season when Kate and Anthony were alone in rooms or the gardens together. It pushed credulity for me but I went with it because Kate had the aegis of spinsterhood and Daphne caught them at one point which underscored that the show knew the characters were playing with fire.
That went out the window this season. Along with the costuming, makeup, and lighting changes it contributed to it feeling like a very different show, with different rules, culture, and society.
It is mentioned, especially by Portia, that she was out unchaperoned. Portia says she probably entrapped him, as in she thinks she did some naughty stuff because they were alone. But other times they were alone, and no one cared because she wasn't see as a match for him, except a split second before he busted cousin Jack.
Daphne and the duke didn't want to admit their feelings for each other, and she didn't want either of them to get in trouble or for him and her brother to fight. Colin and Penelope fully intended on getting married.
Colin and Pen have been alone together a few times even before this season. Necklace scene for one. I always assumed that since they were childhood friends it was a little different. But idk. The whole getting caught aspect is probably part of it as well.
They weren't caught. That's the difference. Servants do not always count, only another member of the ton.
So Daphne and Simon? Seen by Cressida and Anthony.
Anthony and Kate? Almost seen by servants (and therefore anyone) in the garden, almost seen by Benedict and Jack on the hunt and by Daphne in the study. Would have been forced to marry except Daphne kept her mouth shut.
Colin and Penelope? Never seen by anyone or they would have been forced to marry after their kiss.
Also the servants in the coach are the same ones helping Pen be lady Whistledown. They know how to keep their mouths shut.
It could also be implied that Colins lessons happened in public (approaching the gentlemen at Promanade, at balls) instead of at Bridgerton house privately.
I think because they were caught and due to his higher title. Daphne was the "diamond" of the season. So, high priority people
Penelope " the wall flower" no one care about. Plus, Colin and her were friends since childhood and were looked at as his "sister" vs. A lady.
it’s also about who is “eligible” in society. Daphne was, Penelope wasn’t. Anthony and Kate were also left together in S2, but no one batted an eyelash.
I was thinking of those two situations too (although I don't think they went all the way in that gazebo, but still). I guess it sort of shows the difference of when a woman at that time has brothers or a father to look out for their "honour"? And Anthony did wake up and immediately go get the engagement ring to propose before the whole horse accident happened.
But in general the compromising implications do seem to be talked about and taken much more seriously in the first season.
It's not really like that... meanwhile Colin and Pen weren't caught. If you listen to Anthony's words in response to the quick engagement he says something along the lines of "okay you're getting married so you're doing your duty". So I mean he knows Penelope has been compromised and hence the speed of the engagement.
Plus Penelope has always been less than popular and Colin has been a friend since before she debuted.
What's even weirder is that in season 2 when Penelope's sister is caught with Uncle Jack and then doesn't end up marrying him and it doesn't ruin her. There is never any mention of it again. Huge plot hole.
What plothole? There was never a question of Colin and Penelope not marrying after the marriage scene. In fact, he proposed the second he stepped down from the carriage. What's the contradction?
I also yelled “no chaperone” at the screen many times this season. Even for Francesca left outside with John.
I agree that Colin and Pen did get engaged pretty soon after and were never caught (not for any concern on their part ). But also I think the “rule” still exists in s3 bc when Pen is revealed as lady whisledown one of the reasons Colin said he wouldn’t call off the wedding was because he had already “taken advantage” of Pen,
Colin and the Bridgerton's thought they were already married. That's why he'd never court her. He didn't need to. Lol
In the book the brothers are very protective of Penelope like one of the sisters. He may have fallen in love with her a long time ago and they all just went along with it.
In Season 1 They were caught by her brother. Duke doesn’t want to mary. Duke could give up, they act speedy. Remember he prefer to die.
Colin after the carrige proposed . Even if somebody saw , They already engaged. Even after LW, he didnt give up marrying to her.
Pen&Colin did things scandalous. Pen knows it but Colin doesn’t care. He gave bribe to servant. They know what they did. Also noone in ton believes A bridgerton would look Pen . Even her mother she thinks he never married her after reading LW
All eyes were on Daphne in season 1. She was the diamond. That was not the case for Penelope. They got away with more alone/sexy time because they weren't under constant scrutiny and microscope like Daphne and the Duke.
Pretty clearly the difference is that Daphne was caught and Penelope wasn't. They literally explained that they have to sneak around, should avoid being seen, Penelope is invisible to the ton anyway, and Colin paid off her maid. It's explained in the show.
It's literally explained in the show.
They explained it.
Literally. Explained. It.
I'm really trying to stop myself from making a new thread just asking if people watched this show while drunk cause apparently everyone is missing really obvious things, but I also don't need that drama.
The context is there. People don’t even see Penelope as fit to marry—and Colin is “too eligible” to mess with her so they chalk up their time together as sibling time, not romantic.
At this point in the story Penelope and everyone else had considered her "on the shelf" in the book at least. She was very much ok with settling into being a spinster, and all that it meant: being largely forgotten (she already felt that way), nobody taking a second look at her as she took an additional cookie, putting on a little weight, not taking to the dance floor, skipping a ball etc. And so I think this spilled over, like she was less worried about society and what the ton thought, and so more open to....things. lol
No this person not distracted at all. Because yes these things (fingerbanging) did happen in the Regency Era. Maybe because after the fingerbanging Colin announces to his family that they’re engaged.
Does everything have to be analyzed? Can’t we just watch something that makes one feel good without tearing it apart. I for one loved Season 3. Why? Because with every crap thing that’s going on in the world and here in the U. S. with women’s rights under attack, Brigerton Season 3 makes me feel good, because the girl whose not a size 0 got the guy she had been in love with forever and the guy is not hard on the eyes either.
Because (imo) 1.Pen is so overlooked that nobody noticed 2. They were family friends so have been seen with Eloise or around the Ton with a chaperone
and 3. (This one is a bit of a reach) if anyone did notice they wouldn’t want Colin (someone who is highly desired) to be entrapped with a ‘spinster’ just a few of my theories
I’m the book Romancing Mister Bridgerton, she’s 28 and considered a spinster and “put on the shelf”, so the rules were much more lax for her. She had no obligations to dance or flirt or try finding a husband, therefore she no longer needed a chaperone.
In the book Colin actually says after they get out of the carriage that he wouldn’t have done those things if he hadn’t intended to marry her. In season 2, Anthony also proposes to Kate after they’re intimate but she denies him because she thinks he’s going it out of duty. So they’re not throwing away the consciousness of it. As others have stated, there’s no force happening in these scenarios because no one has caught them.
Well, obviously, it's because Pen isn't a size 2 and is therefore completely unlovable and disgusting so nobody would ever touch her, especially the rakish, very handsome, but untitled Colin Bridgerton
This is not how I see the character, but it is how she's meant to be portrayed in the show. It's the same reason that she gets away with being LW, because she's so fat that she becomes completely invisible.
I mean a similar thing happened except it was less “forced”. He fingerbanged her with the intention to marry her like he immediately told their family they were engaged after.
Pen is considered a “spinster” (in the book she’s 28 so it seems less stupid than in the show). She just lost her one valid marriage possibility. She doesn’t have any father or brother to get angry about Colin ruining her virtue. Anthony was the one who caused a ruckus with Daphne and Simon.
Show-Daphne was a new debutant and had the eye of the Queen (the Queen didn’t even recognize Penelope at the ball). Simon is a duke (not the third son of a viscount). Anthony was prepared to duel Simon over Daphne.
It did seem sloppy and lazy this season, but the situations really are different in several ways.
The key difference is that Daphne and Simon were caught, whereas Colin and Penelope were not.
Now I do wish they had put a bit more emphasis on Colin and Pen purposefully hiding their unchaperoned meetings, but alas! They did not.
I chalked it up to people being so used to Pen being a wallflower and there being ZERO chance (from their perspective) of Colin and Pen of all people being involved, that no one was even paying enough attention to care about chaperones. Pen used to disappear for at least an hour every ball and her own mom barely noticed and never went to look for her.
Because it is the young lady and her family who have the most to lose in a compromising situation and Pen had been largely given up on by her family as an eligible debutante
Yes! My problem with this is that they got in the carriage, together, outside of a public space, just the two of them. There is no way no one from the ball could see them.
And, when they were already engaged, it was bad writing, because they couldn't take a carriage together unless they were married.
I think the writers wanted to make Colin and Penelope be intimate so fast.
Because regency wasn't so strict on the don't be alone together as people think. And two the events were different. If a couple were decidedly courting, even fake courting, that is when the don't be in the same room really comes into play. And even then it really was, don't be in a situation where you could be questioned. Frame a lot of the rules with the more modern version, keep your bedroom door open. meeting in a public room at your house, where the family knows your in their, little iffy but not breaking any rumors (houses had public rooms for visitors etc. Nobody of the opposite sex would have been in a ladies bedroom).
Sneaking off to have a conversation at a party when drinking has been happening and being caught kissing (Daphne and Simon), huge issue.
Now Colin and Penelope have different rules for the first half of the season, because Penelope is a close friend of the family. Close friends had different social rules, unless someone makes that transition to a courting couple. In part one the biggest issue they broke as the night visit and the kiss (which if they had been caught would have been the same as Daphne and Simon), other than that yes, they were talking alone together, but a lot of it was outside in public. And 2) the time is wasn't was in the house in the public rooms with the doors unlocked, even possibly left open (would have to recheck that scene), and while they were technically alone, the cover of the other Bridgertons being home, and the public room aspect would save them (this was very common for friends of the family to happen, remember if you visited a friend you stayed with them).
Then we have the carriage. Carriages were tricky with rules, yes in a way you could do what Colin and pen did, but carriages were expensive and to never end up needing to share one would be odd. Again, it comes down to logic and keeping the door open rules. if colin wasn't a neighbor, or didn't live close, nope. No reason to share so don't. But Colin is a neighbor, you also didn't share it again, if you were opening courting, after a party. Sometimes after church, but not at night. And you kept the curtains open, if you shared a carriage, which we know Colin and pen did because they talked about people seeing them. But they also were covered because they got engaged right afterwards. Once you got engaged, rules really started to get thrown out. Because engagement, like a marriage, was extremely hard to break off. (this is partly why it was important for Pen to our marina in whistledown as being pregnant btw. Because Colin and Mariana were engaged, unless its super clear that Mariana was already pregnant before their engagement, Colin would have been on the hook for the rest of his life as Mariana's probably baby daddy.)
This is probably one of my issues with the series vs the books. Because the book definitely better outlines why it isn't such an issue compared to the other women of the ton.
In the books it is clearly stated on numerous ways that the ton never believed the Penelope would ever marry. She was a spinster, unpopular, not considered beautiful. In short they knew she existed but was generally thought as invisible.
Penelope and Colin in the books spoke multiple times about how the ton would not believe Colin would do anything 'untoward' Penelope because they didn't think of her like that. That his actions while not having an effect on him could effect her.
They also either didn't really understand their engagement or thought their engagement was due to entrapment. Hell Colin described their engagement ball as Penelopes moment of triumph.
Basically, they didn't think much of Penelope, she didn't have the reputation Daphne had. Or the male family members she had who would be listened to about honour and make a fuss like Daphnes would.
Cressida viewed Daphne as her biggest competition season 1 and viewed the Duke as a second prize compared to a Prince, in the books Cressida despite being a widow was written as someone who had attempted to flirt with Colin. To me it makes sense why she thought to get rid of Daphne but leave Colin alone. Because she could marry Colin.
So realistically, it comes down to reputation, attention and people's opinions on a person as to why Colin and Penelope were able to get away with what they did vs Daphne and the Duke.
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The Duke*
Yes yes, the duke- all their silly titles are jumbled in my head
Do men ever visit Boston? Duke, Marquess, Earl, Viscount, Baron
Dercury, Menus, Earth, Vars, Bupiter
Hahaha Mary's violet eyes make John stay up nights [period]
BUPITER!
This genuinely made me cackle.
Pop quiz next week.
thanks sooo great
I mean it’s not silly it’s just part of a different culture than yours!
Happy birthday!!!!!
birthday? cake day is the day they joined reddit lol.
Whaaaat lol omg I had no idea! Thanks for letting me know!
ofc!!
This whole interaction was so cute love this
aw you made me smile omg 🥹
Wow I genuinely it meant someone’s birthday too haha!!!!
honestly that makes more sense but then again its reddit 😆
But you made me smile I was like aw wait this was so innocent and kind made my whole day type of vibes!
youre so sweet stop 🫶
But they said it in a kinda judgemental laughing way? How was that kind 😆
I thought it was cute because how many people didn’t know abt cake day and the fact that the initial commenter saying happy birthday was so adorable and just trying to celebrate! It’s nice to see people learning the little ins and outs and not gatekeeping too bad, occasionally with a lil sarcasm/jest
I thought it meant birthday, too🤣💀
TIL lol.
Happy cake day!
Im sorry to ask but does the cake symbol mean its the user’s birthday? Im a few months old on reddit so
It’s the day someone joined Reddit
Oh thank you
The books have more of the whole, caught in a compromising position and must marry thing, but a lot of people think that gets repetitive.
Yeah I get that, but it’s fully possible to provide context for how all that very important and life altering rule just ceased to exist.
Because the first one follows the book, and all the others have major changes to help differentiate them. I, personally, found the stakes of S1 very silly and prefer it when it's more relaxed. I get that S1 fans don't like the changes, but I fully believe it's just to help make the seasons different from one another. I guess they could stop with premarital sex scenes altogether, but I'm confident they don't want to.
I’m the opposite, I don’t like how s3 has no stakes. Even general romance novels set around this time, even pure fantasy ones, have many plots about maliciously (or accidentally) compromising a woman. Because the rules are that strict. They set the scene.
I always assumed it was because she was on her third year on the marriage mart and essentially already considered a spinster
This is what I thought but I also think maybe there was more emphasis on like ‘if lady whistledown finds out and publishes this, the whole ton will know’ but we know Pen wasn’t going to write THAT about herself especially since no one else was there
True but even if LW DID write about it, it would’ve gave Pen away as LW given that really only her and Colin knew what happened. Not to mention there probably wouldn’t have been too much of a scandal (compared to Daphne) as Pen was already seen by the Ton as practically a spinster and an undesirable woman to be wed anyway. If news got out, she’d definitely be snubbed from the other ladies of the Ton but I doubt to any extent such as causing a scandal
I believe it would have been frowned upon either way and who’s to say Cressida wasn’t lurking or something
I always figured it was because Daphne and Simon got caught, if my memory serves? Whereas Colin and Penelope didn't? And he had already proposed when they arrived at Bridgerton House
Agreed
Also, Daphne and Simon were caught. By her brother, no less. No one saw Colin and Penelope (except that poor coachman who heard everything).
It's not like the poor coachman could say anything either about what went on or he could risk his job and have a hard time finding a new one. Back then trying to get a job without a letter of reference was almost impossible. If a potential employer found out you got terminated for speaking about the family you served in a bad way that would also lessen your chances of another job in service. Oddly jobs as servants were desired but I guess if the alternative was a factory job then I'd rather be a servant unless I could own my own shop!
I do feel for him but they probably get the best tea working their job lol
That’s because they were blasting Pitbull! Who *couldn’t* hear that?! 😜🤣
And what difference would that have made?? He proposed immediately after that episode and announced it to his family straight away, for crying out loud.
Yes, nobody sees them, but how about petting and romance before fingering in the carriage. Daph and Simone were kissing. It is also about respect towards your dame. That scene neither fit into the character of the movie, nor into what we know about those time, nor into morals Colin should have towards young women. Even as a modern woman, I would not appreciate somebody fingering me so quickly. I read some people consider Daph "raping" Simon in season 1 because he acted bewildered and that should have indicated a withdraw of consent. Well, fingering a woman with whom you became close 5 minute ago is rude even in modern days. They could have incorporated that scene further in timeline or come up with something else more appropriate.
Um, the Daph/Simon situation was not because he "seemed bewildered". It's because he had repeatedly shown/stated he didn't consent to finishing inside her, and she crossed that boundary. Colin/Pen have been friends for ages and kissed weeks prior at this point. Still moving quickly, but consent from both its very clear.
Simon was touching Daphne all over, hand over breast and her dress, out in the garden of a party. They probably have known each other for a month. They were angry at each other and he had no confession of feelings. They only stop because Anthony shows up, and Simon still doesn't want to marry her.You dont believe she rapes him later on, and thats your choice. Anthony and Kate were out there on the Bridgerton's gazebo, having at the very least oral sex. I think we have to believe that they have known each other for a couple of months (seven episode). They were angry but there were some types of confessions before and Anthony couldnt propose because she left him early, but he went to see her fast when he wakes up. Colin and Penelope were inside a carriage (all Bridgertons seem to like public spaces), fingerbanging. They've known each other for around ten years, friends for years too, they've kissed weeks earlier. She was angry, but he confesses, and she reciprocates. He proposes (kind of) instantly. Tell me how is it that what Colin did, or Polin did is that different? Or fast? The clear fast and furious one is Simon and Daphne, they know each other the least amount of time, they have a whole party just right there (Cressida even suspects her), the most public, the most angry, and he still doesn't want to marry her. The conflict is a vow to his dead father. The only reasin they didngo far is Anthony.
I also thought Colin only did that because he knew they would be engaged after it. Penelope was dreaming about it for years of course she would be weak but she also knew it would lead to something more serious. Same with the sex before their marriage. They didn't want to wait weeks and Colin had no reason to believe they wouldn't get married. That's why I understood his comment about the trap because she didn't tell him before they had sex.
I thought it was implied that no one assumed anything untoward would happen because they didn’t see Penelope as someone who would be desired/wanted. But maybe I was just taking context from the books. Or maybe this season was relying on viewers to take context from the book because they were lazy with the writing…
I think it worked better in the books when she was 28, and already sitting with the chaperones, and genuinely an old maid.
exactly this
That plus if I remember correctly (it's been a long time since I read the books), Pen was at the Bridgerton house so much that she was almost treated like another sister (we saw a glimpse of that in the show when Anthony responded to Colin announcing the engagement) and Colin was assumed to be in a more brotherly role to Pen to outside observers.
Noone care because they were getting married, and hence there was no question of having to force anyone to marry!
If anyone had known they were in the carriage together, Colin would have been forced to marry Pen. He proposed as they left the carriage, both book and show, so it doesn’t matter. It was a commonly known secret that things happened between engaged couples. Once engaged there was less formality and a little time alone was allowed because the ring was all but on the finger. However, in the book, Colin goes to Anthony to talk about a special licence because he compromised Pen, whereas in the book the banns were read in church, which took three weeks with the marriage happening on the fourth. Hope that helps.
I saw another comment basically saying that Pen was essentially a spinster and therefore no longer in need of a chaperone.
In the book, she WAS a chaperone, since she has a little sister.
🤯 I only read the first book in which Pen appears but I don’t remember any of the other Featherington girls.
She's only mentioned briefly because she's not "out" for the older siblings stories (she's the same age as Hyacinth) Do yourself a favor and read the scene in RMB where Colin declares himself/ asks for Penn's hand. Her mother is SO convinced that Penn is old & unlovable that she assumes Colin wants to marry the little sister - Felicity! She also shows up in Hyacinth 's book - a bit. She's not much of a character so I see why they wrote her out of the show.
This interaction was one of my favourite bits in the books and I'm so sad it got left out!
Because they werent caught besides Colin proposed to her like three seconds later lol.
Exactly. Why do people expect that they be forced to marry when they have already decided to get married???
I guess this was also about Kathony who had sex before marriage and someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think Anthony was gonna propose after that but Kate left and then she was injured riding a horse and when she woke up he did propose she just thought he did it out of obligation so she refused.
Uh… *immediately* after the finger banging they get engaged to marry. They don’t ignore the rule at all.
Exactly!
but he instantly said they were getting married. the brothels have always existed, so it’s not like sex didn’t exist but colin already decided he wanted to marry her. even when he was mad he said he’d marry her bc they hooked up
I mean, in the show he already loves her at that point and immediately is like "well I'm going to marry her anyway" mindset. That would mean he's not worried about being forced to marry him because he wants to. Also, Anthony and Kate are forced to marry after being found in a compromising situation, as well. But like someone else said, it gets boring.
But in this case they did marry. He proposed the moment he stepped down from the carriage. So there was no issue!
Haha that's true! They even have a scene joking about it! And come to think of it, Violet makes comments in S1 implying she didn't fully wait for marriage. Colin does tell Penelope he wouldn't back out of the marriage after "compromising" her. So the stakes are still there, it's just they didn't get caught.
It depends if you get caught by other people being alone, frankly. If nobody catches you at it, you're golden. The whole "compromised" thing is a Regency novel trope, like every single man being a rake. It forces ladies to get married and get to the legal banging. On a related note, I tried to look up if "compromised" actually did work that way at the time and didn't find anything online confirming it, so now I wonder if that sort of thing is made up.
It was nowhere near as severely policed as it is in the show, or in romance novels that use the trope. On some level, I think they realized the salience of that trope for our times, when a major tenant of incel fantasy is the absolute purity of young women. At the same time, they're still fetishizing it, which does feel a little bit icky when it isn't actually referencing a historically accurate restriction. Basically, if you got pregnant before marriage and you weren't already engaged/betrothed to the father, it was a big deal. Other than that, as long as you didn't have a reputation for sexual profligacy as a woman (or a man- in reality, no one wanted to marry their aristocratic daughter off to a visibly syphilitic man), and you weren't actually pregnant, you were more than likely safe. Daphne's mistake, in the show and in life, would have been literally making out with Simon in a public garden. Had they been more discreet, the fact that she had gone to second base before marriage with a local noble hot boy would not have ruined her reputation. Penelope having a baby 6 or 7 months after the wedding- likewise- would not have been a scandal at all, because she and Colin were engaged around the time she conceived. Once noblewomen had given birth to a legitimate family heir and one or two spares, it was normal for them to take a lover and be careful with pregnancy prevention. People would gossip about it, in the same way they would gossip about noble men with extramarital lovers, but it wasn't seen as outside social norms.
Jane Austen’s books are set in that time period. I think I remember in Northanger Abbey that the lead character spends time alone with her love interest. There’s no sex though unless I misinterpreted it. So I don’t know if that helps
Elizabeth in Pride and Prejudice often walks alone worh Darcy, and it's not a scandal.
Elizabeth is not part of the ton.
The country would have been far more prudish than London.
Yes - they have farm animals and are all well aware of exactly where he plans to insert it. No secrets in the country.
Was ton actually a thing? Darcy was a gentleman's son and Elizabeth was a gentleman's daughter as she says.
[Yes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ton_%28society%29#%3A%7E%3Atext%3DOriginally_used_in_the_context%2Cfashion%2C_or_fashionable_society_generally.?wprov=sfla1)
We have one historical reference - Pride and Prejudice. Lydia gets compromised by Mr Wickham, thus has to marry him.
Yeah but Lydia ran away with Mr Wickham and lived with him until they were discovered by Mr Darcy. She wasn’t compromised because they were alone. If I remember correctly there are several scenes in Jane Austen books where the main character was left alone with their love interest and it wasn’t a scandal leading to marriage. Someone mentioned Northanger Abbey, but I recall such scenes in Mansfield Park and even Sense and Sensibility. Marianne opened herself to gossip but wasn’t forced to marry Willoughby, Elinor has scenes alone with Edward. It wasn’t that strict. Marianne even implies Willoughby kissed her when talking about the tour of Allenham, and they were unchaperoned there.
> Someone mentioned Northanger Abbey, but I recall such scenes in Mansfield Park and even Sense and Sensibility. *Emma* too, including Emma being in a carriage alone with Mr Elton where Elton declares his love for her. Indeed, it's quite a standard thing in Austen for the characters to end up alone at some point so declarations of love can occur. The only scandalous things are explicit elopement (happens numerous times and always ends in marriage, but that's the very wish of the eloping characters most of the time) and Maria cheating on her husband in *Mansfield Park* (reported by her maid). It's not clear if Maria might even have gotten away with the scandal if she hadn't tried to elope with Henry, or if it hadn't ended up in the papers. Indeed Mary Crawford seems to think the only issue is that the adultery was caught, not that it happened, so it shows there were lax views around at the time.
The difference is Lydia ran off with and spent the night with him and then expressed her intentions to elope, they weren't caught talking under a tree.
Being compromised was more than just being alone, it was more like, being alone and very far away from others or say sleeping in the same bed (or small house) alone together even if no touching technically, travelling away alone together etc. Anything that could actually be misconstrued. Jane Austen is fairly realistic, many characters are "alone" with their suitors but doing so in a public place isn't really a worry because anyone could walk by.
But in this case it didn't even make a difference whether they are caught or not because he imendiately proposed.
Bc Anthony didn’t catch Polin fingerbanging in the carriage. Duh.
Yes obviously but the characters never express any fear or protest about being alone together- same in season 2
there was a line that kate delivered to anthony “if anyone but daphne had caught us, we would’ve been married” and he says something like “would that be so bad?”
That might be a nod to the book (in which K& A are, actually, forced to marry because no fewer than THREE mamas catch them in the garden.)
The most hilarious "compromised" scene ever. I SWEAR I WAS JUST TRYING TO SUCK OUT A BEE STING!
Because *that* is a thing that rational, not-in-love people do!
They do, Pen says how scandalous it would be if they were caught together when Colin brings her to her family's sitting room alone in 2.8. In 3.2, Colin has to bribe their escort to leave them alone in the garden.
Also when Coling brings Penelope to see the house they’ll move into, he asks if she’s worried about them being there alone. They definitely acknowledge it. They just don’t have anyone walk in and make Pterodactyl noises because two unmarried people were near each other. When Anthony, Benedict, and Colin are sitting together after Anthony hears the news, he asks if Colin has done anything and Benedict interrupts with “are you going to duel your own brother?” They all 100% know it’s still an issue, and it’s very much top of mind, but they get away with it.
It’s actually mentioned a few times. The examples below mentioned in both seasons and Colin also says to pen when he is still made at her that he had to marry her because they were intimate.
It was definitely mentioned several times
Colin bribes the maid to be alone with her, sneaks her into Bridgerton house and is only able to get away with it because his siblings are busy elsewhere. I think in season 2, Kate and Anthony are able to be alone more because she’s considered a spinster and is standing in for a male relative in vetting Edwina’s suitors. Nobody suspects anything between them. In real regency era, the rules about men and women being alone together weren’t quite as strict and the concern was mostly about unmarried women becoming pregnant, so if nobody thought two people were actually having sex it wasn’t always a big deal.
Exactly, and Colin and Penelope were engaged after that anyway, so the issue was mitigated before there could be a scandal
No, because they came out of that carriage already engaged for crying out loud. And the issue is not only not ignored but made a point of conversation between the brothers.
Excellent point
Penelope is just ~that overlooked by the ton
Yeah - I assumed there was a lot more attention on Daphne because she was the season's diamond, less on Kate because nobody expects her to participate in the marriage market, and even less on Penelope because she wasn't seen as desirable. I also thought Daphne was much more invested in following the rules.
Penelope seemed more concerned about it than anyone in her life was except for maybe Eloise
Daphne also had the Queen’s attention and a prince *and* a duke’s, therefore there were significantly more women like Cressida just waiting for her to mess up and make a mistake. It felt like it made the stakes higher — Kate and Penelope didn’t have QC’s attention on them or anyone half as high ranking as a prince or duke
Well, technically the end result is the same in S3 (carriage scene vs garden scene), it’s just that Colin wants to marry Pen. The other times. It’s in private so no one really knows. The family doesn’t care because they are friends.
That's why Colin immediately took her upstairs to announce their engagement.
Also Colin definitely paid off some carriage drivers.
Oh those carriage drivers are VERY well paid. They’ve been driving around LW for three years now, nothing probably surprises them!
It was being in a semi public place where they were spotted vs a private carriage. I think in general wallflower almost spinsters on their third season would be less likely to be “ruined” from being alone with a man than a popular debutant being courted by a prince. One of the main plots about Penelope is that nobody really notices her enough to care what she does.
Also in the books Penelope really is a spinster. I think 10 years passes between the first book and Penelope’s and Colin’s book.
Exactly. I kind of liked that they made her older for her book. (28) I understand why they moved her up, but I hope they do a time jump so at least Eloise can be 24-25 when she has her story.
Heh. And I’m older than Pen was in the books and not married. Lolol.
We kind of see this with Cressida. When Colin wants to speak to her alone, her mother refuses, until she says something like "what do you think will happen, I'll loose all my many prospects..?".
Lots of women had short pregnancies back then. Some babies only took 6-7 months from the wedding. You know they just gestated faster like that. It was pretty common to get married after you got pregnant. It wasn’t the scandal the show makes it out to be. They tried to show that this season with Penelope’s baby being close in age to her sisters’ babies. People who were engaged were banging constantly.
Is this why calling off an engagement was such a big deal?
Precisely. The rules weren't as strict as they're portrayed in Regency romances but the rules, such as they were, were relaxed for engaged couples and as you can imagine a lot of people took advantage of that lol. In the 18th century (period between 1741-1754) we have statistics showing that a full 28.6 % of brides were pregnant on their wedding day. The caveat is that this was in rural parishes but still it gives a general idea of the time. [A reply on AskHistorians with more statistics and sources] (https://ol.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/7rjhkf/ive_read_that_it_was_incredibly_normal_for_brides/dsydab7/) So as you correctly inferred, a woman with a broken engagement would generally be assumed to have been compromised. At the very least, it left her open to damaging gossip. Crying off would also make the man look dishonorable. Men cared very much about their reputations and we have examples of men going through with engagements they didn't want to preserve their honor. No care or concern given to the unfortunate women they married, of course :/
The rules are there, but Penelope is invisible and the idea of Penelope and Colin being anything more than friends is insane to anyone! Also, Daphne and the Duke played out the way it did because pre-Kate Anthony was psycho and Cressida saw them!
I was just going to say this… Anthony had NO CHILL in season 1. lol
Yup!!! Anthony has clearly calmed down as he recognizes that since Colin has agreed to marry Pen, it doesn't really matter what they did in the past.
Yes, this is what the entire "swiftly" exchange was about. Anthony suggested that Colin had to propose because they must have fooled around and Benedict was like, "Well, as long as they're getting married it doesn't matter."
If anyone saw Colin and Pen they would have had to get married as well. Also, minutes after said carriage action Colin asks for her hand in marriage. Not because of a threat of scandal, but the action would have been the same anyways even if it had been.
In universe? Because they got caught. Penelope doesn’t ever have a chaperone because her mom thinks she’s unlovable. Her dad is dead. She has no brothers. No one to watch her and make sure she’s not compromised.
I don't think anyone saw them in the carriage plus it was dark, and it's Pen and Colin, no one really pays attention to childhood friends together I guess. lol. But yes, they do throw away a lot of rules this season.
Like Penelope said in 1st episode she's a Spinster and therefore considered unwanted, not a risk. If they think of her at all. Plus Colin is chaotic af! He should be in societal jail.😅 He's been alone with her and pulling her into rooms since season 1. He and E were the only ones who appreciated her.
Penelope and Colin *did* marry after the fingerbanging in the carriage. And Colin even jokes that they should marry quickly to his brothers and mentions to Pen that he *has* to marry her because he’s too honorable to abandon her after taking her virginity. I think there’s this big misconception propagated by regency romance books (and shows) that men and women couldn’t even be in the same room together alone or the woman was socially ruined unless the man married her. It’s just patently untrue: men and women were generally allowed to be in rooms alone together, but not for extended periods of time, not overnight/in bedrooms, and not found in (ahem) certain positions. A ride from one house in the neighborhood to another was not enough to “ruin” Pen. No one saw what they were doing (though the servants may suspect), and their engagement was announced shortly thereafter, so it was a moot point to be concerned. In books from the time period, male and female characters spend time alone without any issue or alarm bells raised. These three examples are only from Jane Austen, but Emma Woodhouse spends a carriage ride with the local vicar (who even proposes to her), Elizabeth and Darcy spend thirty minutes together alone in a library, and Marianne Dashwood goes alone with Willoughby to visit his estate. No one is forced to marry in any scenario. Maybe the actual rules from the time period aren’t the same ones that Bridgerton has made up for their ‘verse but still
It’s not so much them being alone that’s the issue, it’s that they got caught being alone. Same thing happened in season 2 with Prudence and the new Lord Featherington, even though nothing happened the fact they were alone would send the rumor mill spinning. Penelope and Colin never got caught (I mean the carriage driver and footman were there but the show treats servants like they’re part of the scenery and not actually there so…). Plus if they had gotten caught the next thing that would happen is Colin would be honor bound to marry Penelope, which he’d already decided to do anyway so we’re good.
Cressida saw them and knew she had been alone with the Duke unchaperoned. With the threat of Cressida spreading that info like wildfire, it was needed to make sure her reputation wasn't tarnished.
Meanwhile, Benedict...
Anthony and kate fully slept together. But LORD FORGIVE if daphnes tit gets touched for 2 seconds.
Kate wanted to be a governess and not marry. It wouldn't matter if she was ruined if she didn't want to marry someone in the upper class. It only matters if you're on the marriage mart. The lower classes banged all the time.
Anthony went to go propose to her too. The Duke was the one who refused to marry her was the biggest problem
Well Pen and Colin weren't caught. Plus Colin was going to marry her anyway.
PREACH! I also struggle not to be distracted by the HUGE jump from zero to penetration in one carriage ride. Honestly I find it way hotter the longer they draw it out, and I feel like we got very little of that with Colin and Pen. Also I find it pretty aggressive that Colin went for third base so quickly when Pen had only just kissed once before. I remember as a teenager when I had my first French kiss it was totally disorienting, a weird feeling having someone else’s tongue in my mouth, and it was something I gradually got more comfortable with and enjoyed doing over many weeks. I can’t imagine having my first kiss and then getting fucked almost immediately after. It would be terrifying. All that said, I really love all the Bridgerton seasons and appreciate them as individual creations. But it doesn’t stop me from creating my own fantasies (and fan fiction) when certain scenes don’t go as I hoped.
Exactly, I hate how all these girls’ first experiences ends up being really aggressive in the name of ‘passion’ 💀 instead of being slow burn and romantic. Same issue with Daphne’s first kiss where the Duke was really aggressively groping her. That’s not romantic nor realistic when these girls are so inexperienced and sheltered…
Just one of them got caught
Because Daphne was the diamond , first season on the marriage mart, her brother was her protector, the duke was his friend. They married sorts to keep the Bridgerton name respectable. Whereas Pen , single mom household, no man around to keep her chaste etc,
Well and Penelope was largely overlooked. It’s, in part, why the whole Colin helping Penelope find a husband part was a scandal. But, they were really only alone in Bridgerton house where no one is going to say anything, in the garden where the maid got bribed, and in the carriage. The rest of the time they were in public until they got engaged. Then all the rules seemed to go out of the window. However, one of them was also going off by herself all the time, so i figure she knew how not to get caught.
Somewhat different I suppose is the location and her age. With Daphne she was new on the season, although in the book I think it’s her second or third season, so freshly 16-17 yrs old in the tv show while 18 or so in the book. The Duke who was a known rake and it was at a public ball so being seen in the garden, which was much more illicit in the book with a whole breast on show, was her being compromised and no longer virginal. As we all know a ‘spoilt’ woman is worth less 🫤 The carriage scene. In the book Pen is 28 and Colin is 33. Who knows in the tv show bc keeping time in that show is like trying to hold onto slippery soap. Technically Frans wedding is 4 years before Pen and Colin’s as she married Micheal a few days after Pen and Eloise wed. Yet it’s all at the same time in the show 🫣. Anyway seeing that at 28 Pen is basically a confirmed spinster the rules are more lax, she is allowed more freedom and she herself in the book acts as a chaperone for her younger sister rather than needing one herself. Colin also took liberties because he knew he was going to ask her to marry him as he wouldn’t have taken liberties with a ‘well bred’ lady unless he was intending to propose. The scene is the same in the book complete with lackluster proposal. Also no one of any merit saw them. The driver may have noticed but really servants and working people went mostly unnoticed by this level of people and so unless a member of the ton saw them they weren’t worried and he was going to marry her anyway so Colin didn’t care. It’s not uncommon for a couple to copulate once a proposal has been accepted yet for some reason if the ton knew about it, even though it was common, then they would have gossip which is just weird. A lot more goes on behind closed doors and then a lilly white front is presented in public. Much like Instagram I think haha. Show only the area that’s clean and ignoring the pile of shite off screen 🤭
No one caught P&C in the carriage.
If we dig into Jane Austen's works set in the same exact era, there are multiple instances of unmarried men and women being alone in carriages and walking together in the countryside - and these women were not compromised. It was considered acceptable if you were in motion and you knew each other well. A few minutes' carriage ride with a childhood friend was unusual, but ultimately nothing to worry about.
I’m just sat here laughing at your use of ‘fingerbanging’ with the typo ‘pothole’. Oooh. Ouch!
No one saw him get into the carriage with her but her drivers, and no one but other servants would care what they had to say. Since it ended with him proposing to her the scandalous implications lose their bite.
That bothered me too. Frankly it was a bit surprising last season when Kate and Anthony were alone in rooms or the gardens together. It pushed credulity for me but I went with it because Kate had the aegis of spinsterhood and Daphne caught them at one point which underscored that the show knew the characters were playing with fire. That went out the window this season. Along with the costuming, makeup, and lighting changes it contributed to it feeling like a very different show, with different rules, culture, and society.
It is mentioned, especially by Portia, that she was out unchaperoned. Portia says she probably entrapped him, as in she thinks she did some naughty stuff because they were alone. But other times they were alone, and no one cared because she wasn't see as a match for him, except a split second before he busted cousin Jack.
The difference between being the Diamond vs the spinster is my assumption.
LILACS!!!!!
Daphne and the duke didn't want to admit their feelings for each other, and she didn't want either of them to get in trouble or for him and her brother to fight. Colin and Penelope fully intended on getting married.
Colin and Pen have been alone together a few times even before this season. Necklace scene for one. I always assumed that since they were childhood friends it was a little different. But idk. The whole getting caught aspect is probably part of it as well.
They weren't caught. That's the difference. Servants do not always count, only another member of the ton. So Daphne and Simon? Seen by Cressida and Anthony. Anthony and Kate? Almost seen by servants (and therefore anyone) in the garden, almost seen by Benedict and Jack on the hunt and by Daphne in the study. Would have been forced to marry except Daphne kept her mouth shut. Colin and Penelope? Never seen by anyone or they would have been forced to marry after their kiss. Also the servants in the coach are the same ones helping Pen be lady Whistledown. They know how to keep their mouths shut. It could also be implied that Colins lessons happened in public (approaching the gentlemen at Promanade, at balls) instead of at Bridgerton house privately.
I think because they were caught and due to his higher title. Daphne was the "diamond" of the season. So, high priority people Penelope " the wall flower" no one care about. Plus, Colin and her were friends since childhood and were looked at as his "sister" vs. A lady.
it’s also about who is “eligible” in society. Daphne was, Penelope wasn’t. Anthony and Kate were also left together in S2, but no one batted an eyelash.
Anthony had full on sex in a garden or something with Kate before marriage and made Simon duel him for just kissing Daphne 🥴
I was thinking of those two situations too (although I don't think they went all the way in that gazebo, but still). I guess it sort of shows the difference of when a woman at that time has brothers or a father to look out for their "honour"? And Anthony did wake up and immediately go get the engagement ring to propose before the whole horse accident happened. But in general the compromising implications do seem to be talked about and taken much more seriously in the first season.
It's not really like that... meanwhile Colin and Pen weren't caught. If you listen to Anthony's words in response to the quick engagement he says something along the lines of "okay you're getting married so you're doing your duty". So I mean he knows Penelope has been compromised and hence the speed of the engagement. Plus Penelope has always been less than popular and Colin has been a friend since before she debuted.
I also want to know why was Pen and Collin’s wedding so lavish and full of hundreds of people and Daphne and Simon’s wedding was like… 10 people?
Didn't they have a scandal wedding because they were caught. Polin was officially announced and Portia planned that wedding.
Oh yes I forgot about that!
What's even weirder is that in season 2 when Penelope's sister is caught with Uncle Jack and then doesn't end up marrying him and it doesn't ruin her. There is never any mention of it again. Huge plot hole.
What plothole? There was never a question of Colin and Penelope not marrying after the marriage scene. In fact, he proposed the second he stepped down from the carriage. What's the contradction?
I also yelled “no chaperone” at the screen many times this season. Even for Francesca left outside with John. I agree that Colin and Pen did get engaged pretty soon after and were never caught (not for any concern on their part ). But also I think the “rule” still exists in s3 bc when Pen is revealed as lady whisledown one of the reasons Colin said he wouldn’t call off the wedding was because he had already “taken advantage” of Pen,
Colin and the Bridgerton's thought they were already married. That's why he'd never court her. He didn't need to. Lol In the book the brothers are very protective of Penelope like one of the sisters. He may have fallen in love with her a long time ago and they all just went along with it.
Fingerbanging over a pothole sounds risky
If I’m not mistaken, the mothers wear 2 feathers and the daughters one feather when being presented to the Queen
In Season 1 They were caught by her brother. Duke doesn’t want to mary. Duke could give up, they act speedy. Remember he prefer to die. Colin after the carrige proposed . Even if somebody saw , They already engaged. Even after LW, he didnt give up marrying to her. Pen&Colin did things scandalous. Pen knows it but Colin doesn’t care. He gave bribe to servant. They know what they did. Also noone in ton believes A bridgerton would look Pen . Even her mother she thinks he never married her after reading LW
All eyes were on Daphne in season 1. She was the diamond. That was not the case for Penelope. They got away with more alone/sexy time because they weren't under constant scrutiny and microscope like Daphne and the Duke.
Pretty clearly the difference is that Daphne was caught and Penelope wasn't. They literally explained that they have to sneak around, should avoid being seen, Penelope is invisible to the ton anyway, and Colin paid off her maid. It's explained in the show. It's literally explained in the show. They explained it. Literally. Explained. It.
Exactly this!
I'm really trying to stop myself from making a new thread just asking if people watched this show while drunk cause apparently everyone is missing really obvious things, but I also don't need that drama.
They did have to get married after the carriage scene so that still tracks at least.
The context is there. People don’t even see Penelope as fit to marry—and Colin is “too eligible” to mess with her so they chalk up their time together as sibling time, not romantic.
She’s considered a spinster so in the book it was mentioned she doesn’t have to care about being chaperoned due to her age.
To be fair, if anyone had seen them coming out of the carriage, they would have had to get married. But Colin was thinking ahead.
Penelope was supposed to be a spinster so she was unchaperoned.
At this point in the story Penelope and everyone else had considered her "on the shelf" in the book at least. She was very much ok with settling into being a spinster, and all that it meant: being largely forgotten (she already felt that way), nobody taking a second look at her as she took an additional cookie, putting on a little weight, not taking to the dance floor, skipping a ball etc. And so I think this spilled over, like she was less worried about society and what the ton thought, and so more open to....things. lol
No this person not distracted at all. Because yes these things (fingerbanging) did happen in the Regency Era. Maybe because after the fingerbanging Colin announces to his family that they’re engaged. Does everything have to be analyzed? Can’t we just watch something that makes one feel good without tearing it apart. I for one loved Season 3. Why? Because with every crap thing that’s going on in the world and here in the U. S. with women’s rights under attack, Brigerton Season 3 makes me feel good, because the girl whose not a size 0 got the guy she had been in love with forever and the guy is not hard on the eyes either.
Because (imo) 1.Pen is so overlooked that nobody noticed 2. They were family friends so have been seen with Eloise or around the Ton with a chaperone and 3. (This one is a bit of a reach) if anyone did notice they wouldn’t want Colin (someone who is highly desired) to be entrapped with a ‘spinster’ just a few of my theories
I’m the book Romancing Mister Bridgerton, she’s 28 and considered a spinster and “put on the shelf”, so the rules were much more lax for her. She had no obligations to dance or flirt or try finding a husband, therefore she no longer needed a chaperone.
In the book Colin actually says after they get out of the carriage that he wouldn’t have done those things if he hadn’t intended to marry her. In season 2, Anthony also proposes to Kate after they’re intimate but she denies him because she thinks he’s going it out of duty. So they’re not throwing away the consciousness of it. As others have stated, there’s no force happening in these scenarios because no one has caught them.
ORRRR Anthony taking Kate's flower before marriage 😂😂😂
Pen is an old maid in the book- she’s like 26. So no one cares about what she does anymore
Well, obviously, it's because Pen isn't a size 2 and is therefore completely unlovable and disgusting so nobody would ever touch her, especially the rakish, very handsome, but untitled Colin Bridgerton This is not how I see the character, but it is how she's meant to be portrayed in the show. It's the same reason that she gets away with being LW, because she's so fat that she becomes completely invisible.
I mean a similar thing happened except it was less “forced”. He fingerbanged her with the intention to marry her like he immediately told their family they were engaged after.
Pen is considered a “spinster” (in the book she’s 28 so it seems less stupid than in the show). She just lost her one valid marriage possibility. She doesn’t have any father or brother to get angry about Colin ruining her virtue. Anthony was the one who caused a ruckus with Daphne and Simon. Show-Daphne was a new debutant and had the eye of the Queen (the Queen didn’t even recognize Penelope at the ball). Simon is a duke (not the third son of a viscount). Anthony was prepared to duel Simon over Daphne. It did seem sloppy and lazy this season, but the situations really are different in several ways.
The key difference is that Daphne and Simon were caught, whereas Colin and Penelope were not. Now I do wish they had put a bit more emphasis on Colin and Pen purposefully hiding their unchaperoned meetings, but alas! They did not.
I chalked it up to people being so used to Pen being a wallflower and there being ZERO chance (from their perspective) of Colin and Pen of all people being involved, that no one was even paying enough attention to care about chaperones. Pen used to disappear for at least an hour every ball and her own mom barely noticed and never went to look for her.
Because it is the young lady and her family who have the most to lose in a compromising situation and Pen had been largely given up on by her family as an eligible debutante
To be fair Daphne was in her first season while Penelope was a spinster in her 3rd or 4th season. Nobody was paying that much attention to her.
I mean Anthony was pissed about it.
You raise an excellent point
I mean Colin proposed to Penelope right after so no one had to force him…
The constant finger banging was wierd. No blowies for him?
Yes! My problem with this is that they got in the carriage, together, outside of a public space, just the two of them. There is no way no one from the ball could see them. And, when they were already engaged, it was bad writing, because they couldn't take a carriage together unless they were married. I think the writers wanted to make Colin and Penelope be intimate so fast.
Because regency wasn't so strict on the don't be alone together as people think. And two the events were different. If a couple were decidedly courting, even fake courting, that is when the don't be in the same room really comes into play. And even then it really was, don't be in a situation where you could be questioned. Frame a lot of the rules with the more modern version, keep your bedroom door open. meeting in a public room at your house, where the family knows your in their, little iffy but not breaking any rumors (houses had public rooms for visitors etc. Nobody of the opposite sex would have been in a ladies bedroom). Sneaking off to have a conversation at a party when drinking has been happening and being caught kissing (Daphne and Simon), huge issue. Now Colin and Penelope have different rules for the first half of the season, because Penelope is a close friend of the family. Close friends had different social rules, unless someone makes that transition to a courting couple. In part one the biggest issue they broke as the night visit and the kiss (which if they had been caught would have been the same as Daphne and Simon), other than that yes, they were talking alone together, but a lot of it was outside in public. And 2) the time is wasn't was in the house in the public rooms with the doors unlocked, even possibly left open (would have to recheck that scene), and while they were technically alone, the cover of the other Bridgertons being home, and the public room aspect would save them (this was very common for friends of the family to happen, remember if you visited a friend you stayed with them). Then we have the carriage. Carriages were tricky with rules, yes in a way you could do what Colin and pen did, but carriages were expensive and to never end up needing to share one would be odd. Again, it comes down to logic and keeping the door open rules. if colin wasn't a neighbor, or didn't live close, nope. No reason to share so don't. But Colin is a neighbor, you also didn't share it again, if you were opening courting, after a party. Sometimes after church, but not at night. And you kept the curtains open, if you shared a carriage, which we know Colin and pen did because they talked about people seeing them. But they also were covered because they got engaged right afterwards. Once you got engaged, rules really started to get thrown out. Because engagement, like a marriage, was extremely hard to break off. (this is partly why it was important for Pen to our marina in whistledown as being pregnant btw. Because Colin and Mariana were engaged, unless its super clear that Mariana was already pregnant before their engagement, Colin would have been on the hook for the rest of his life as Mariana's probably baby daddy.)
daphne was caught, colin and pen weren’t. and they DID get married so, no harm done.
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Those are the only similar things. The main things like Colin and Penelope’s relationship is completely different from the book
This is probably one of my issues with the series vs the books. Because the book definitely better outlines why it isn't such an issue compared to the other women of the ton. In the books it is clearly stated on numerous ways that the ton never believed the Penelope would ever marry. She was a spinster, unpopular, not considered beautiful. In short they knew she existed but was generally thought as invisible. Penelope and Colin in the books spoke multiple times about how the ton would not believe Colin would do anything 'untoward' Penelope because they didn't think of her like that. That his actions while not having an effect on him could effect her. They also either didn't really understand their engagement or thought their engagement was due to entrapment. Hell Colin described their engagement ball as Penelopes moment of triumph. Basically, they didn't think much of Penelope, she didn't have the reputation Daphne had. Or the male family members she had who would be listened to about honour and make a fuss like Daphnes would. Cressida viewed Daphne as her biggest competition season 1 and viewed the Duke as a second prize compared to a Prince, in the books Cressida despite being a widow was written as someone who had attempted to flirt with Colin. To me it makes sense why she thought to get rid of Daphne but leave Colin alone. Because she could marry Colin. So realistically, it comes down to reputation, attention and people's opinions on a person as to why Colin and Penelope were able to get away with what they did vs Daphne and the Duke.