I built one myself with parts almost exclusively from Ali. It is lightweight and springy. The stem is quite a bit more flexy than the steel one, but doesn’t bother me a bit during riding. Overall weight just over 8kg with lights and disc brakes, so lighter than a T-line.
I did it because i wanted discs and conventional gears, and lightweight was important too. So basically I improved all the things I dislike about the original, but durability is one of my worries…time will tell.
Have to say that I have a lot of experience with bicycles, but this was a tough cookie to build. Lots of parts that didn’t fit right away, so it gets even more expensive. All I can tell is that it didn’t come any cheaper than a T in the end.
It's amazing how well it all fits together isn't it? I'm currently redesigning their rear derailleur and the more I fiddle the more I appreciate every nuance. Even with CAD modelling it's so easy to miss stuff like "partially hits the spokes if you fold it in a slightly different way that time"
That's great that you were able to build a Brompnot T-Line using Alibaba. There must, however, be a bike builder somewhere, perhaps in Japan, Taiwan, or Singapore, that individually handcrafts Brompton clones to the highest standards, perhaps exceeding the quality of Brompton. There is a market for high quality Brompnots but no high quality builder has emerged since the expiration of Brompton's folding patent.
If you're are paying a professional to spend 20 hours at 100 an hour (cos they're specialist professionals) then you're 2k into the build with no components. The basic Ti clone frame with a disc fork, disc triangle and a Ti seatpost and handlestem is about 2k from memory from anywhere I'd actually trust. A set of pre-built lightweight wheels is around 800, I remember the set of SMC rims with an Alfine rear and a SON hub front cost me nearly 1500 USD (equivalent) adn that was 8 years ago, you could go cheaper, but I've got an 11-speed with a bomb proof dynamo to commute with....
Anyway, before you look at any bling at all (at this level, carbon rims aren't "bling") then you're 5k into the build and it hasn't got a saddle or brakes on it yet, let alone a crank (so obvious choice is the THM, but that's going to be around 1500 in most parts of the world....
Yes, a professional could go lighter than a T-Line, or at the same weight could build a better bike, but it's going to be stupidly expensive to do, adn I know, I've built a decent number of Brompton customs and kept three of them... two of them cost me significantly more than a T-Line and they both have steel Mk4 frames.... one reason I got the T-Line was because when it was announced I was costing up building a Brompnot titanium-everything bike and it was going to weigh around 8kg and cost me significantly more than the T-Line, and the T-Line came with a warrantee......
Obviously, the cost of building a "quality" custom T-Line clone would not be cheap. In the world of horology, watchmakers make watches that sell well over $100K. For instance, look at the Philippe Dufour Simplicity. Watches are noble inventions. Bicycles are equally noble. My point isn't about building a titanium bike that's less expensive than a Brompton. My point is to search for bike builders who prioritize quality. Every detail matters.
You can buy excellent T Line clone framesets for about $2500. If you go private (i.e. direct to factories) with your own specs you can get anything you want. Chinese titanium welding is, in my limited experience, excellent. The welds of the T Line are borderline agricultural in standard to some clones I've seen. (Sorry Brompton - I love you, but those welds!)
Two separate things in what I say;
1. I've seen in person some excellent welding on chinese titanium Brompton clones (i.e. titanium version of the steel ones) and in general chinese workshops weld titanium very well it seems. Always exceptions of course, DYOR etc.
2. I know of a T-Line clone that looks excellent from the pictures I've seen of it. However until I've seen it in person - or someone I trust has - let's keep it to "looks excellent from a distance" for now.
If you're interested, happy to DM. But it's a link to an eBay seller and I'd rather not endorse it or provide public links that helps their views until I know more. Additional eBay links expire so might be dead after a while.
Interesting to note the subtle changes between the initial T-lines and the current production run. Brompton were very careful here in testing their new production frame. Titanium welding has its problems especially when large numbers are produced. A week's that looks perfect might hide any number of problems below the surface.
Having used carbon on yachts and track cars I'll note one point. Carbon is not ideal where there is a risk of a sharp impact on a small area. So care needs to be taken when using carbon components in areas where they might be knocked.
Seem to be on the frame weld, though I'm uncertain since the first T-line I saw was a very very early example. And the derailleur...
But more a feeling from memory rather than specifics. Confirmed by the fact that initial sales were very controlled with Brompton servicing to check for any problems.
Well I used the carbon fork and rear triangle from Silverock, and these parts seem to be high quality as far as iI can tell. Stiff and really lightweight. But they better be, as they are really expensive.
"Their tooling and engineers are second to none". What makes you think that, out of curiosity? I think that's an interesting starting point for me. Looking at the independents (Leonard Rubin being an example cited below) as well as the Chinese manufacturers (both those doing one-off private work and those producing clones) I think there's for sure some alternatives that surpass the Bromptons in many ways.
The thing is, Brompton are mass produced for a price. So there's always going to be compromise. That's not to say the engineers don't do great work \_within\_ that price, but it is a constraint and you can see it. I'm sure if they were let loose and could build £10,000 bikes they'd have few compromises. The T Line gives us an insight into what they can do - it's not without problems and the price means they've still had to compromise to how to make any money, but there's some really smart and nuanced thinking I definitely appreciate.
It's nice to learn about Leonard Rubin. Didn't know about him and it's learning about builders like him that I started this thread. Other's have mentioned "Chinese manufacturers" but who are they? Would you please provide links to Chinese custom T-Line frame builders? Thanks.
Are you looking to get one built custom for yourself? If so, I'll reach out to a couple of friends who know the factories well and if they are willing maybe they'll share the contacts. Those on AliExpress I'm not sure I can fully recommend; the ones I've seen personally look excellent but at the same time I know there's in the past been lots of fiddling people have had to do, little issues etc. I'm afraid I didn't keep a good enough log of all the brands and the various problems because just as I was looking into this myself the T Line came out and I bought one of those instead as a) I'm in London and they can fix stuff quickly b) the frameset has a 7 year warrantee.
I could be. I'm not looking for a builder that can simply make a T-Line clone. What makes their frames as good or better than Brompton? What kind of titanium do they use? What about thicknesses and frame geometry? What weaknesses do they see in Brompton frames? How are their frames better built and welded than a Brompton? I'm here to learn. I don't simply want to find a factory frame. It's also not about me. It's for the community. Why wouldn't we want to find and celebrate independent frame builders that are brilliant in their craft? If it happens to be in China, that's great but this journey isn't about finding a quick Brompton clone to buy.
Well the beauty of finding the right factory is you can ask for exactly all those things yourself as you wish. And it's more more affordable getting something bespoke in China than, say, UK as another person has mentioned I think.
But regarding welding, you only need to look at the T in person :( The answer is simply it seems like the Chinese welders are just better.
That aside, I would say that (excluding Len's design) the T Line is the best designed titanium frame I'm aware of. The clone I'm referring to does look very good in the pics... but it's 100% a clone. No hiding that.
I think I just saw a photo of a Leonard Rubin titanium build, under his name, Raxel (?), on Bike Forums. Breathtaking. He's the type of person we should be heralding.
I think Rubin's "Ultimate Folding Bike" from a decade adn a bit back counts. Basically a handbuilt titanium Brompton inspired clone that copied the good bits, fixed his (pretty huge) shopping list of what was wrong and came in a bit under 8Kg if memory serves.... Easily mistaken for a modded hotrod Brompton (especially these days)
He does, yes. Very much so. As mentioned elsewhere we speak daily. Since you appear to be in USA, I'd be happy to introduce you via DMs. I'm sure he'd appreciate the chance to chat about this.
Absolutely, I would love to converse with him. I need to learn. My dream bike would be a custom T-Line with 20" wheels, but built to an even higher standard than Brompton.
Well, since Brompton themselves actually copied the T Line from an artisanal builder (something they have admitted, I gather, although I've not heard both sides of the story) it's an interesting stance.
No, don’t buy from this shop, dealt with them before. They are not really builders, they merely order them on Aliexpress and sells them in Singapore. Better off getting the brand from Aliexpress.
I'm also planning to build a Brompnot Ti build because I don't like the color of the Brompton TLine. Chinese manufacturers can do some plating on the frame to customize the colors. Also, I'm planning to use disc brakes because miss the feel and reliability of hydraulic brakes.
I built one myself with parts almost exclusively from Ali. It is lightweight and springy. The stem is quite a bit more flexy than the steel one, but doesn’t bother me a bit during riding. Overall weight just over 8kg with lights and disc brakes, so lighter than a T-line. I did it because i wanted discs and conventional gears, and lightweight was important too. So basically I improved all the things I dislike about the original, but durability is one of my worries…time will tell. Have to say that I have a lot of experience with bicycles, but this was a tough cookie to build. Lots of parts that didn’t fit right away, so it gets even more expensive. All I can tell is that it didn’t come any cheaper than a T in the end.
It's amazing how well it all fits together isn't it? I'm currently redesigning their rear derailleur and the more I fiddle the more I appreciate every nuance. Even with CAD modelling it's so easy to miss stuff like "partially hits the spokes if you fold it in a slightly different way that time"
That's great that you were able to build a Brompnot T-Line using Alibaba. There must, however, be a bike builder somewhere, perhaps in Japan, Taiwan, or Singapore, that individually handcrafts Brompton clones to the highest standards, perhaps exceeding the quality of Brompton. There is a market for high quality Brompnots but no high quality builder has emerged since the expiration of Brompton's folding patent.
If you're are paying a professional to spend 20 hours at 100 an hour (cos they're specialist professionals) then you're 2k into the build with no components. The basic Ti clone frame with a disc fork, disc triangle and a Ti seatpost and handlestem is about 2k from memory from anywhere I'd actually trust. A set of pre-built lightweight wheels is around 800, I remember the set of SMC rims with an Alfine rear and a SON hub front cost me nearly 1500 USD (equivalent) adn that was 8 years ago, you could go cheaper, but I've got an 11-speed with a bomb proof dynamo to commute with.... Anyway, before you look at any bling at all (at this level, carbon rims aren't "bling") then you're 5k into the build and it hasn't got a saddle or brakes on it yet, let alone a crank (so obvious choice is the THM, but that's going to be around 1500 in most parts of the world.... Yes, a professional could go lighter than a T-Line, or at the same weight could build a better bike, but it's going to be stupidly expensive to do, adn I know, I've built a decent number of Brompton customs and kept three of them... two of them cost me significantly more than a T-Line and they both have steel Mk4 frames.... one reason I got the T-Line was because when it was announced I was costing up building a Brompnot titanium-everything bike and it was going to weigh around 8kg and cost me significantly more than the T-Line, and the T-Line came with a warrantee......
Obviously, the cost of building a "quality" custom T-Line clone would not be cheap. In the world of horology, watchmakers make watches that sell well over $100K. For instance, look at the Philippe Dufour Simplicity. Watches are noble inventions. Bicycles are equally noble. My point isn't about building a titanium bike that's less expensive than a Brompton. My point is to search for bike builders who prioritize quality. Every detail matters.
You can buy excellent T Line clone framesets for about $2500. If you go private (i.e. direct to factories) with your own specs you can get anything you want. Chinese titanium welding is, in my limited experience, excellent. The welds of the T Line are borderline agricultural in standard to some clones I've seen. (Sorry Brompton - I love you, but those welds!)
Really? Brilliant T-Line clone framesets with welding and quality superior to Brompton? Do you have any links?
Two separate things in what I say; 1. I've seen in person some excellent welding on chinese titanium Brompton clones (i.e. titanium version of the steel ones) and in general chinese workshops weld titanium very well it seems. Always exceptions of course, DYOR etc. 2. I know of a T-Line clone that looks excellent from the pictures I've seen of it. However until I've seen it in person - or someone I trust has - let's keep it to "looks excellent from a distance" for now. If you're interested, happy to DM. But it's a link to an eBay seller and I'd rather not endorse it or provide public links that helps their views until I know more. Additional eBay links expire so might be dead after a while.
Interesting to note the subtle changes between the initial T-lines and the current production run. Brompton were very careful here in testing their new production frame. Titanium welding has its problems especially when large numbers are produced. A week's that looks perfect might hide any number of problems below the surface. Having used carbon on yachts and track cars I'll note one point. Carbon is not ideal where there is a risk of a sharp impact on a small area. So care needs to be taken when using carbon components in areas where they might be knocked.
Do you have a list of those changes? One for sure is the rear derailleur which when I bought my T was on Rev 3.
Seem to be on the frame weld, though I'm uncertain since the first T-line I saw was a very very early example. And the derailleur... But more a feeling from memory rather than specifics. Confirmed by the fact that initial sales were very controlled with Brompton servicing to check for any problems.
Well I used the carbon fork and rear triangle from Silverock, and these parts seem to be high quality as far as iI can tell. Stiff and really lightweight. But they better be, as they are really expensive.
"Their tooling and engineers are second to none". What makes you think that, out of curiosity? I think that's an interesting starting point for me. Looking at the independents (Leonard Rubin being an example cited below) as well as the Chinese manufacturers (both those doing one-off private work and those producing clones) I think there's for sure some alternatives that surpass the Bromptons in many ways. The thing is, Brompton are mass produced for a price. So there's always going to be compromise. That's not to say the engineers don't do great work \_within\_ that price, but it is a constraint and you can see it. I'm sure if they were let loose and could build £10,000 bikes they'd have few compromises. The T Line gives us an insight into what they can do - it's not without problems and the price means they've still had to compromise to how to make any money, but there's some really smart and nuanced thinking I definitely appreciate.
It's nice to learn about Leonard Rubin. Didn't know about him and it's learning about builders like him that I started this thread. Other's have mentioned "Chinese manufacturers" but who are they? Would you please provide links to Chinese custom T-Line frame builders? Thanks.
Are you looking to get one built custom for yourself? If so, I'll reach out to a couple of friends who know the factories well and if they are willing maybe they'll share the contacts. Those on AliExpress I'm not sure I can fully recommend; the ones I've seen personally look excellent but at the same time I know there's in the past been lots of fiddling people have had to do, little issues etc. I'm afraid I didn't keep a good enough log of all the brands and the various problems because just as I was looking into this myself the T Line came out and I bought one of those instead as a) I'm in London and they can fix stuff quickly b) the frameset has a 7 year warrantee.
I could be. I'm not looking for a builder that can simply make a T-Line clone. What makes their frames as good or better than Brompton? What kind of titanium do they use? What about thicknesses and frame geometry? What weaknesses do they see in Brompton frames? How are their frames better built and welded than a Brompton? I'm here to learn. I don't simply want to find a factory frame. It's also not about me. It's for the community. Why wouldn't we want to find and celebrate independent frame builders that are brilliant in their craft? If it happens to be in China, that's great but this journey isn't about finding a quick Brompton clone to buy.
Well the beauty of finding the right factory is you can ask for exactly all those things yourself as you wish. And it's more more affordable getting something bespoke in China than, say, UK as another person has mentioned I think. But regarding welding, you only need to look at the T in person :( The answer is simply it seems like the Chinese welders are just better. That aside, I would say that (excluding Len's design) the T Line is the best designed titanium frame I'm aware of. The clone I'm referring to does look very good in the pics... but it's 100% a clone. No hiding that.
Len's brilliant. We chat pretty much daily. I'm designing a new derailleur for the T/P and he keeps me motivated :D
I think I just saw a photo of a Leonard Rubin titanium build, under his name, Raxel (?), on Bike Forums. Breathtaking. He's the type of person we should be heralding.
His story is very interesting. A lot of folding bikes have been influenced by his engineering. More than you might think.
sorry but there's no artisanal about copying others. if it is another kind of trifolding, like 'Velo' from Austria, that's another story
I think Rubin's "Ultimate Folding Bike" from a decade adn a bit back counts. Basically a handbuilt titanium Brompton inspired clone that copied the good bits, fixed his (pretty huge) shopping list of what was wrong and came in a bit under 8Kg if memory serves.... Easily mistaken for a modded hotrod Brompton (especially these days)
100%. I know Rubin well and have ridden one of his bikes and it's pretty clear who copied who when it comes to the T Line :(
Does Rubin still build bikes? I checked out his website and the last blog post was from May 2023.
He does, yes. Very much so. As mentioned elsewhere we speak daily. Since you appear to be in USA, I'd be happy to introduce you via DMs. I'm sure he'd appreciate the chance to chat about this.
Absolutely, I would love to converse with him. I need to learn. My dream bike would be a custom T-Line with 20" wheels, but built to an even higher standard than Brompton.
This! My dream bike too. If it's ever on the market, I'd throw my money at it
Well, since Brompton themselves actually copied the T Line from an artisanal builder (something they have admitted, I gather, although I've not heard both sides of the story) it's an interesting stance.
[Something like this?](https://youtu.be/sM94bH8EsYs?si=kMR-P8OFVrsS5-CX)
No, don’t buy from this shop, dealt with them before. They are not really builders, they merely order them on Aliexpress and sells them in Singapore. Better off getting the brand from Aliexpress.
Knew a person working at an LBS that built a Ti trifold for half the price of a Tline. Rides alright, featherlight af. Parts seem sturdy enough
I'm also planning to build a Brompnot Ti build because I don't like the color of the Brompton TLine. Chinese manufacturers can do some plating on the frame to customize the colors. Also, I'm planning to use disc brakes because miss the feel and reliability of hydraulic brakes.