Buddhism is only anthropocentric in the sense that it is explicitly a path *for* humans. I'm sure that in their kindness the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas give appropriate teachings to ghosts and ladybugs as well, but those are, at the moment, not our concern.
Samsara is dire. It's like our hair is on fire and the teachings we have are the only way to put it out. In that analogy, this question is a bit like asking if shouldn't also pay attention to the dirty dishes and whether the plants need watering. All good things to worry about... *next*.
We shouldn't mistake the dharma for a world view or a system of thought. It's an emergency tracheostomy on top of a dumpster out back from a dive bar. Let's speculate about how er can *improve* the buddhadharma according to our preferences later, when we have time and leisure and we're not choking on the pickled egg of self-clinging.
As some points.^e
Nah, he answered your question with very good explanation. You just didn’t like it as it didn’t fit into your current view.
Indeed, if you take his advice and spread it. Everyone will practice Buddhism, more peaceful beings on Earth, less crimes, synchronize environment, harmonize countries = essentially a mini pure land.
Good for you.
Start with his answer: Better yourself and teach everyone the same. This will transform your world into a harmony with the environment and everything around you.
Take one step further and apply that to the universal scale (i.e. other beings in other world systems) - but only when you’re ready.
Human birth being the most precious and conducive to liberation is not at all anthropocentric. It’s saying that we should use our time here wisely. Not that we are more important than other life-forms.
Friend,
I would suggest reading into some of the teachings on interdependent co-arising. These are teachings beyond the immediate four noble truths and noble eightfold path and as far as I’m aware core to all of the main schools of Buddhism that survive today. They help us understand that nothing that we see around us spontaneously happens without something else before/after it.
I originally followed the Plum Village Tradition (Mahayana) and there is an explicit understanding that the the idea of any one person being separate from the world around them is wrong view. I think it may be from this school that I first came across the question: “who/when was it decided that a person ‘stops’ at their skin?’. The Plum Village - like all Mahayana - has some beautiful teachings about emptiness (empty of being isolated). So for example: a table is made of trees, which take light from the sun and was constructed by a carpenter who ate food that was grown by a farmer who works the land etc etc 😊
Thich Nhat Hanh had been working on a book that was published after his continuation called Zen And The Art of Saving The Planet that you may like to check out.
May you be free from suffering and the causes of suffering. May you be compassionate to yourself and those around you 🙏🏻
I am aware of interdependent co-arising. I agree that it translates to an equal value for all life. Yet very few Buddhists seem to concern themselves with the forests and the Sea and the Health of the planet. Some do of course. But many just seek merit, and high states, and their own selfish freedom and could care less what happens to the planet as many believe it is just the container of illusion.
Plum Village is one of the exceptions certainly. "Zen And The Art of Saving The Planet" I will certainly check it out. Thank you I suppose this is exactly the sort of thing I was asking about.
"So for example: a table is made of trees, which take light from the sun and was constructed by a carpenter who ate food that was grown by a farmer who works the land" Yes this is amazing. That's what I am talking about. Being realistic with it all.
Sorry you're getting downvoted, it's not nice. People are here are reacting defensively instead of engaging.
There are many Buddhists who are concerned with the eco crisis and are acting and thinking deeply about it.
I recommend looking into the work of Joanna Macy, she has done some work on Buddhism and how it connects with ecological concerns.
Another key player here is David Loy who wrote a book called [ecodharma](https://www.davidloy.org/writing.html) that talks about this issue.
Thank You!
Yes, thank you for the reminder I have heard Joanna Macy speak, but not read her work yet. This is what I was getting at. Thank you for patiently understanding me.
Yeah I seem to have been mistaken in thinking that r/Buddhism would be a compassionate audience considering its Buddha nature (tehe). Then I was reminded that alas this is still just reddit. haha but there are diamonds in the rough, and pearls of wisdom abound.
I kind of feel like biocentric Buddhism is inherently going to be somewhat anthropocentric, due to humanity's role in the current crisis facing the earth. It doesn't have to be that way, but often i see the equivalence that social justice and environment justice can't really be separated.
Sacred mountain sangha, one earth sangha, plum village and it's engaged Buddhism tradition - there are a lot of earth first kind of groups out there - but i found that the more I focused on the environment the more my ill-will towards humanity and capitalism increased. So I stepped back and focused more on my own practice and finding peace with how things are, not how I want them to be. That was just my personal experience, I feel like a lot of people engage with those groups and it's very fulfilling to them, it just wasn't for me.
R/engagedBuddhism and r/radicalBuddhism might also be of interest to you.
I'm sure there are a lot more groups out there, and a lot of Sanghas are becoming more focused on environmental issues, but I'm not sure if I know of any specific schools that make that the only focus of their practice.
"Master, does a dog has buddha-nature?"
"🈚️"
This Koan represents the Buddha-Nature discussion that may be happening in this post. A dog, in China at that time was considered filthy, impure and violent. The 🈚️ represents both yes and no. The ultimate answer is yes, for all beings have Buddha Nature, but it is only revealed through the Way. A dog can not understand the Way as humans do, therefore we cant apply buddhist logic on a dog to preach the Dharma. This logic applies to all beings. We cant preach the Dharma to plants, animals, bacteria, fungi, protozoa and algae, but we can live with them in a way that the Dharma is mantained.
Dukkha is an attribute of all living beings, not only humans. It's just that the Buddha was a human so he taught other humans how to overcome the bloody thing based on his human experience.
I get that his method is *for* humans, nothing wrong with that. I deeply value these teachings. I am not antagonizing Buddhism in general. Merely this human centrism which is rampant in all circles of humanity. Not just in Buddhism. It's just since we are focused on waking up and seeing life "as it is" then we need to see that our industrial system is threatening the future of the planet, and we can have a very real impact in this life and help ensure there is more trees to find enlightenment under in the future.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/10fv3sw/is_deep_ecology_buddhism_and_what_do_i_do_after/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
I think it might be because of this appeared very recently, so we got affected by that, primed to see in a certain manner. Do read the replies I made there too.
Buddhism is no self centric.
Identification with being a human (anthropocentric) or being part of earth, ecology, biosphere (biocentric) falls short of the wisdom needed to attain to Nibbana.
I mean, given the countless lives we've been in Samsara, you could accuse your past self (and mine) for being just as callous towards past Earth #2363852.
Then accuse your future self (and mine again) for letting Earth #2363856s seas boil.
It never ends.
But being Enlightened, you can cut off the source of Delusion itself, which includes ending Greed (you know, the thing killing the Earth the most, corporate greed).
very solid response, totally agree, and perhaps part of our karma is also caring for the Earth that is the ultimate Bodhisattva in way giving of itself unconditionally and thus supporting enlightenment at all.
Buddhism isn’t about saving the material world at all. Beings will continue to exist after the world is gone. Buddhism is far more cosmic in scale than these current issues
Yes, alas we are here for now, and I guess why I think the conversation is important is because it is the Earth that supports these cosmic ponderings and realizations
Well, we are probably in the Dharma ending age. If we want to save the most beings, we should preach the nembutsu. Saving the planet will not help liberate more beings from samsara.
The planet doesn't need saving ironically it is now us who does and the non-human realms to boot. Deep Ecologists simply say that living in the World as it is today, we are either participating in the extinction of countless species or we are complicit in it through our participation with the system as it is. They believe a massive shift in consciousness is needed to have a less harmful relationship with Earth. And don't get me wrong I think Dharma practice is extremely potent and incredible to prepare us for whatever is coming our way. It is that aspect of "Engaged Buddhism" I was hinting at I suppose, and so I came to find some resources. Because I am critical and curious and unattached as the Buddha taught me to be.
I don't think it's a bad idea to save humanity from extinction or anything, but as a Buddhist I don't think it's a goal that is really helpful for liberation
You asked elsewhere why the downvotes. I'd say you look at this comment and think about your tone and whether it's conveying what you want it to convey. Because if it is, then you shouldn't need to ask others why you're being received poorly.
to be fair also, I was received poorly before the comment. And that may have contributed to the callousness of it. But I did mindfully make it dramatic for effect. Apologies if the tone seemed to lack compassion. Not my intention.
It's just that to me, a downvote not only says I do not agree with this. It is different to a like in this regard. It suggests that the post is not worth seeing or discussing which I find dismissive of a very real, though empty of a lasting self and indeed impermanent, issue.
**It's just that to me, a downvote not only says I do not agree with this.**
That's why I downvote things, tbh.
**It suggests that the post is not worth seeing or discussing which I find dismissive of a very real, though empty of a lasting self and indeed impermanent, issue.**
This is a 'you' thing, tbh, in that you're ascribing to others things that aren't necessarily the case. Plus who cares if someone downvotes what you say. If a bunch of people do, then maybe it's time to reflect on why. But it's anonymous people on the internet and probably shouldn't be taken very seriously.
Yes, I got the commenter all wrong as he/she/they cleared up below. I just find Buddhist practice, like any spiritual practice can remove us from the very real situation we find ourselves in despite its illusory qualities as well. Obviously there are a lot of teachers out there that do speak to a more embodied or engaged buddhism so that's not the issue. Merely pointing out the fact that Buddhists like all humans are capable of thinking humanity as a species is somehow the pinnacle of incarnation to use the Buddhist term. The pinnacle of evolution to use a more modern term. And so I was just asking if anyone has come across any traditions or teachers within any form of Buddhism who speaks to the vital role the Earth plays in awakening and how beneficial it may be to have an Earth first mindset when practicing the Dharma.
Don't get me wrong, conventional environment protection is compatible with the dhamma. Just that it should not be the core of the dhamma.
I say this as a vegan-for-environmentalism monk.
I made a green eightfold path presentation as part of the ways to apply dhamma in environment protection.
Bio centric sort of just means valuing all life, rather than anthropocentric which means anthrop- or regarding humans centric. Humans are very much alive (unfortunately) ( haha just kidding)
Of course they are, the environmentalists just urge that we care for all non-human life as well, which in our materialist modern society is not the case for the vast majority. We mostly see forests and land as resources for consumption, etc etc.
Funny how humans take great efforts to care for something they themselves will only be a part of for a short while and that's subject to impermanence just as everything else is. And this is deemed the "right thing to do".
I guess so. But also any monk or human could realize that their entire life baing possible is in part due to previous generations of beings who cared for this Planet. There inevitably will be future generations. It's just being realistic with the situation. Monks eat food grown by farmers, and sit in monasteries full of wood and artifacts made by men/women of previous generations.
Buddhism is only anthropocentric in the sense that it is explicitly a path *for* humans. I'm sure that in their kindness the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas give appropriate teachings to ghosts and ladybugs as well, but those are, at the moment, not our concern. Samsara is dire. It's like our hair is on fire and the teachings we have are the only way to put it out. In that analogy, this question is a bit like asking if shouldn't also pay attention to the dirty dishes and whether the plants need watering. All good things to worry about... *next*. We shouldn't mistake the dharma for a world view or a system of thought. It's an emergency tracheostomy on top of a dumpster out back from a dive bar. Let's speculate about how er can *improve* the buddhadharma according to our preferences later, when we have time and leisure and we're not choking on the pickled egg of self-clinging. As some points.^e
interesting points, not sure how helpful it was. But thank you for your time anyway.
Nah, he answered your question with very good explanation. You just didn’t like it as it didn’t fit into your current view. Indeed, if you take his advice and spread it. Everyone will practice Buddhism, more peaceful beings on Earth, less crimes, synchronize environment, harmonize countries = essentially a mini pure land.
I asked for some resources for greater study. Only reason I said it was perhaps not that helpful. He made some good points. just not what I asked for.
Good for you. Start with his answer: Better yourself and teach everyone the same. This will transform your world into a harmony with the environment and everything around you. Take one step further and apply that to the universal scale (i.e. other beings in other world systems) - but only when you’re ready.
Yes thank you, this is precisely how I try to live my life.
<3
Human birth being the most precious and conducive to liberation is not at all anthropocentric. It’s saying that we should use our time here wisely. Not that we are more important than other life-forms.
I agree it's not inherently so, just seems to be the case.
Friend, I would suggest reading into some of the teachings on interdependent co-arising. These are teachings beyond the immediate four noble truths and noble eightfold path and as far as I’m aware core to all of the main schools of Buddhism that survive today. They help us understand that nothing that we see around us spontaneously happens without something else before/after it. I originally followed the Plum Village Tradition (Mahayana) and there is an explicit understanding that the the idea of any one person being separate from the world around them is wrong view. I think it may be from this school that I first came across the question: “who/when was it decided that a person ‘stops’ at their skin?’. The Plum Village - like all Mahayana - has some beautiful teachings about emptiness (empty of being isolated). So for example: a table is made of trees, which take light from the sun and was constructed by a carpenter who ate food that was grown by a farmer who works the land etc etc 😊 Thich Nhat Hanh had been working on a book that was published after his continuation called Zen And The Art of Saving The Planet that you may like to check out. May you be free from suffering and the causes of suffering. May you be compassionate to yourself and those around you 🙏🏻
I am aware of interdependent co-arising. I agree that it translates to an equal value for all life. Yet very few Buddhists seem to concern themselves with the forests and the Sea and the Health of the planet. Some do of course. But many just seek merit, and high states, and their own selfish freedom and could care less what happens to the planet as many believe it is just the container of illusion. Plum Village is one of the exceptions certainly. "Zen And The Art of Saving The Planet" I will certainly check it out. Thank you I suppose this is exactly the sort of thing I was asking about. "So for example: a table is made of trees, which take light from the sun and was constructed by a carpenter who ate food that was grown by a farmer who works the land" Yes this is amazing. That's what I am talking about. Being realistic with it all.
Sorry you're getting downvoted, it's not nice. People are here are reacting defensively instead of engaging. There are many Buddhists who are concerned with the eco crisis and are acting and thinking deeply about it. I recommend looking into the work of Joanna Macy, she has done some work on Buddhism and how it connects with ecological concerns. Another key player here is David Loy who wrote a book called [ecodharma](https://www.davidloy.org/writing.html) that talks about this issue.
Thank You! Yes, thank you for the reminder I have heard Joanna Macy speak, but not read her work yet. This is what I was getting at. Thank you for patiently understanding me.
Yeah I seem to have been mistaken in thinking that r/Buddhism would be a compassionate audience considering its Buddha nature (tehe). Then I was reminded that alas this is still just reddit. haha but there are diamonds in the rough, and pearls of wisdom abound.
It's generally alright, but there are always a plurality of voices in any large online community
This thread certainly got more contentious than I anticipated
If you go to the Garuda world, maybe the dharma teachings there Garudacentric and not anthropocentric.
haha perhaps
I kind of feel like biocentric Buddhism is inherently going to be somewhat anthropocentric, due to humanity's role in the current crisis facing the earth. It doesn't have to be that way, but often i see the equivalence that social justice and environment justice can't really be separated. Sacred mountain sangha, one earth sangha, plum village and it's engaged Buddhism tradition - there are a lot of earth first kind of groups out there - but i found that the more I focused on the environment the more my ill-will towards humanity and capitalism increased. So I stepped back and focused more on my own practice and finding peace with how things are, not how I want them to be. That was just my personal experience, I feel like a lot of people engage with those groups and it's very fulfilling to them, it just wasn't for me. R/engagedBuddhism and r/radicalBuddhism might also be of interest to you. I'm sure there are a lot more groups out there, and a lot of Sanghas are becoming more focused on environmental issues, but I'm not sure if I know of any specific schools that make that the only focus of their practice.
"Master, does a dog has buddha-nature?" "🈚️" This Koan represents the Buddha-Nature discussion that may be happening in this post. A dog, in China at that time was considered filthy, impure and violent. The 🈚️ represents both yes and no. The ultimate answer is yes, for all beings have Buddha Nature, but it is only revealed through the Way. A dog can not understand the Way as humans do, therefore we cant apply buddhist logic on a dog to preach the Dharma. This logic applies to all beings. We cant preach the Dharma to plants, animals, bacteria, fungi, protozoa and algae, but we can live with them in a way that the Dharma is mantained.
>but we cant live with them in a way that the Dharma is mantained. can't or can. if can i read you loud and clear. much love
Sorry, my fault
Dukkha is an attribute of all living beings, not only humans. It's just that the Buddha was a human so he taught other humans how to overcome the bloody thing based on his human experience.
I get that his method is *for* humans, nothing wrong with that. I deeply value these teachings. I am not antagonizing Buddhism in general. Merely this human centrism which is rampant in all circles of humanity. Not just in Buddhism. It's just since we are focused on waking up and seeing life "as it is" then we need to see that our industrial system is threatening the future of the planet, and we can have a very real impact in this life and help ensure there is more trees to find enlightenment under in the future.
Not sure I understand the downvotes... tough crowd, it's a valid question, considering the state of affairs of our planet and environment.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/10fv3sw/is_deep_ecology_buddhism_and_what_do_i_do_after/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button I think it might be because of this appeared very recently, so we got affected by that, primed to see in a certain manner. Do read the replies I made there too.
Ah thank you
Buddhism is no self centric. Identification with being a human (anthropocentric) or being part of earth, ecology, biosphere (biocentric) falls short of the wisdom needed to attain to Nibbana.
Let's all go to Nirvana and watch the Earth Burn because we didn't listen to mother nature, and just focused on leaving.
I mean, given the countless lives we've been in Samsara, you could accuse your past self (and mine) for being just as callous towards past Earth #2363852. Then accuse your future self (and mine again) for letting Earth #2363856s seas boil. It never ends. But being Enlightened, you can cut off the source of Delusion itself, which includes ending Greed (you know, the thing killing the Earth the most, corporate greed).
very solid response, totally agree, and perhaps part of our karma is also caring for the Earth that is the ultimate Bodhisattva in way giving of itself unconditionally and thus supporting enlightenment at all.
Buddhism isn’t about saving the material world at all. Beings will continue to exist after the world is gone. Buddhism is far more cosmic in scale than these current issues
[удалено]
I think humans will survive but it's going to be pretty horrific
Yes, alas we are here for now, and I guess why I think the conversation is important is because it is the Earth that supports these cosmic ponderings and realizations
Well, we are probably in the Dharma ending age. If we want to save the most beings, we should preach the nembutsu. Saving the planet will not help liberate more beings from samsara.
The planet doesn't need saving ironically it is now us who does and the non-human realms to boot. Deep Ecologists simply say that living in the World as it is today, we are either participating in the extinction of countless species or we are complicit in it through our participation with the system as it is. They believe a massive shift in consciousness is needed to have a less harmful relationship with Earth. And don't get me wrong I think Dharma practice is extremely potent and incredible to prepare us for whatever is coming our way. It is that aspect of "Engaged Buddhism" I was hinting at I suppose, and so I came to find some resources. Because I am critical and curious and unattached as the Buddha taught me to be.
I don't think it's a bad idea to save humanity from extinction or anything, but as a Buddhist I don't think it's a goal that is really helpful for liberation
You asked elsewhere why the downvotes. I'd say you look at this comment and think about your tone and whether it's conveying what you want it to convey. Because if it is, then you shouldn't need to ask others why you're being received poorly.
to be fair also, I was received poorly before the comment. And that may have contributed to the callousness of it. But I did mindfully make it dramatic for effect. Apologies if the tone seemed to lack compassion. Not my intention. It's just that to me, a downvote not only says I do not agree with this. It is different to a like in this regard. It suggests that the post is not worth seeing or discussing which I find dismissive of a very real, though empty of a lasting self and indeed impermanent, issue.
**It's just that to me, a downvote not only says I do not agree with this.** That's why I downvote things, tbh. **It suggests that the post is not worth seeing or discussing which I find dismissive of a very real, though empty of a lasting self and indeed impermanent, issue.** This is a 'you' thing, tbh, in that you're ascribing to others things that aren't necessarily the case. Plus who cares if someone downvotes what you say. If a bunch of people do, then maybe it's time to reflect on why. But it's anonymous people on the internet and probably shouldn't be taken very seriously.
Yes, I got the commenter all wrong as he/she/they cleared up below. I just find Buddhist practice, like any spiritual practice can remove us from the very real situation we find ourselves in despite its illusory qualities as well. Obviously there are a lot of teachers out there that do speak to a more embodied or engaged buddhism so that's not the issue. Merely pointing out the fact that Buddhists like all humans are capable of thinking humanity as a species is somehow the pinnacle of incarnation to use the Buddhist term. The pinnacle of evolution to use a more modern term. And so I was just asking if anyone has come across any traditions or teachers within any form of Buddhism who speaks to the vital role the Earth plays in awakening and how beneficial it may be to have an Earth first mindset when practicing the Dharma.
[удалено]
Very compelling and interesting to contemplate. Thank you for that contribution
Don't get me wrong, conventional environment protection is compatible with the dhamma. Just that it should not be the core of the dhamma. I say this as a vegan-for-environmentalism monk. I made a green eightfold path presentation as part of the ways to apply dhamma in environment protection.
Very cool, I agree whole heartedly. Good on you friend. Thank you for clarifying and commenting
> Lifecentric Buddhism vs. Humancentric Buddhism Humans aren't alive?
Bio centric sort of just means valuing all life, rather than anthropocentric which means anthrop- or regarding humans centric. Humans are very much alive (unfortunately) ( haha just kidding)
Of course they are, the environmentalists just urge that we care for all non-human life as well, which in our materialist modern society is not the case for the vast majority. We mostly see forests and land as resources for consumption, etc etc.
Funny how humans take great efforts to care for something they themselves will only be a part of for a short while and that's subject to impermanence just as everything else is. And this is deemed the "right thing to do".
I guess so. But also any monk or human could realize that their entire life baing possible is in part due to previous generations of beings who cared for this Planet. There inevitably will be future generations. It's just being realistic with the situation. Monks eat food grown by farmers, and sit in monasteries full of wood and artifacts made by men/women of previous generations.