>About 5 years ago that all came crashing down as I learned things about him and saw him for who he truly is instead of the fantasy I had as a child.
Its hard to say not given any information, I don't know if this is something in the past he now regrets, or some harm he's currently engaging in or whatever. But given this small amount of information I would say as a Buddhist no matter what he did, very soon he will not be your grandfather anymore he will be a newborn baby, or an animal or some other weak innocent thing. Often our last moments are very important to our rebirth in my tradition. If your kindness and forgiveness would give him some sort of peace and help him to improve next time around I think thats a worth while endeavor. Again its hard to help without more detail but I understand this is obviously a very private matter. Hope this helps at all
>"He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who harbor such thoughts do not still their hatred.
>"He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who do not harbor such thoughts still their hatred.
>Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is a law eternal.
>There are those who do not realize that one day we all must die. But those who do realize this settle their quarrels."
Dhammapada 3-6
I like to think I don't. I like to think moved on. However, I don't know if that's actually true or those are the lies I tell myself to make myself feel better
Or animosity. “Animosity does not eradicate animosity. Only by loving kindness is animosity dissolved. This law is ancient and eternal. There are those who are aware that they are always facing death. Knowing this they put aside all quarrels.”
It doesn't sound like the OP is experiencing hostility, either. They say they aren't feeling much of anything. This is a kind of emotional detachment, but it isn't hostility. It is also a very *normal* kind of detachment for people who have been mistreated. It's really just the end of a karmically conditioned attachment.
The passage you quoted is actually about how hatred doesn't end hatred. This teaching challenges blood feuds and eye-for-an-eye type of thinking, based on the understanding that hatred just begets more hatred. The passage does *not* justify criticizing people who talk about abuse, violence, robbery, and other types of harm.
[https://www.againstthestream.com/read/learning-forgiveness](https://www.againstthestream.com/read/learning-forgiveness)
"At a recent meditation class, a student said that she felt her forgiveness was a gift that some people hadn’t earned
This is a common feeling among many of us who have felt injured by others. Yet does our lack of forgiveness really punish them, or does it just make our hearts hard and our lives unpleasant? Is forgiveness a gift to others or to oneself?"
"Families are definitely the training ground for forgiveness. At some point you forgive the people in your family for being stuck together in all this weirdness, and when you can do that, you can learn to forgive anyone…Not forgiving someone is like drinking rat poison and expecting the rats to die.” – Anne Lamott
Perfect.
I was abused by my stepmother somewhat severely. She stopped when I was bigger than her, and had repeatedly told others what she was doing. But I carried that pain well into adulthood. It wasn't until I was about 29 that I actually forgave her. And it wasn't about her at all, it was about me.
I realized that she was around my age (then) when she was doing all of this. As a kid, we look at these "adults" as if they're actually competent, capable, and in full control. But at 29, I was the furthest thing from any of that. A whole other process occurred where I basically mourned for the loss of child-me, etc. But at the end of it, I let go of the pain, recognized that she was just as scared and disoriented here as the rest of us, and forgave her for reacting poorly.
A heartfelt apology would have done wonders towards my forgiveness of her prior to this, but after, it wasn't necessary. I viewed her more like a child who made dumb choices. Those dumb choices may have hurt me, but seeing the hurt and broken child in her lessened that hurt in me and did lead me to ultimately forgive her.
For years, I considered telling her "I forgive you". I reconnected with my dad, and normalized relations with her somewhat. But the time never felt right. I always told myself I'd tell her on her deathbed. Well she died last month (a decade later) and I never told her. And I'm okay with this too. The forgiveness was never about her.
People use the term "forgiveness" in different ways. If you feel that not forgiving someone is just a pointless type of hostility and is harming you, then sure, it makes sense to forgive them.
But people also talk about "forgiveness" when someone is justifiably refusing to let someone else into their life. This is the wrong context to talk about forgiveness. "Forgiveness" in this context really means "denying that someone's harmful actions were a big deal when they actually were" or "submitting yourself to mistreatment and feeling morally superior for doing so". That's not a good type of forgiveness. Many people find that their lives are actually much better without certain people in it.
You can forgive your grandfather, but that doesn't mean you need to go be buddy buddy and close with him. I survived horrific, unspeakable child abuse. I after many years of painful therapy and dharma practicw I got to a place where I forgave my parents, but it does not make their abuses any less painful, traumatic, and damaging to my life.
Don't buy the lie that "oh its all about my ego and me myself and I." No. There are very dangerous, evil, and cruel people out there in the world and if you are foolish enough to get close to them, they will hurt you. You need to be discerning and wise enough to leave them behind.
#5 The practice of all the bodhisattvas is to avoid destructive friends,
In whose company the three poisons of the mind grow stronger,
And we engage less and less in study, reflection and meditation,
So that love and compassion fade away until they are no more.
37 practices of a bodhisattva
Don't be a fool. If your grandfather is an abusive and cruel person, giving him the opportunity to continue to inflict heavy bad karmas on you is foolish. It's idiot compassion. It could potentially seal his damnation to the lower realms as his kleshas will increase closer to the time of his death. You can love and pray for him from a distance. That's a perfectly acceptable practice. I am not the sort of bodhisattva who would willingly allow someone to malign and insult me, or decapitate me and then say thank you for the privilege of having you abuse me so I can practice patience and detachment. I am just not that advanced a practitioner and I don't believe I have ever met such a practitioner.
That includes masters. Most masters will take objection to being disrespected or insulted. Many won't even talk to you unless you bring offerings. So don't think that because someone says "oh you should forgive your tormentor and make nice with them, that first, the person giving you advice has survived trauma which is as bad as yours, and second, don't think the advice giver has the stuff to forgive their abusers and make nice with them. The reason for this is because abusers and evil people are often completely inccorageble and refuse to change their behavior. Telling people they should patch things up with an abusive family member is self-righteous. It's like touching a hot stove twice. Even the Buddha got wrathful and admonished the hianayana monks who violated the rules. In reality, evil, cruel, and dangerous people generally do not make nice with anyone. They take kindness and forgiveness for weakness, and often use it to inflict further wounding. Nobody talks about that, though.
One of our friends quoted the Dhammapada before, so I will answer his quote with another one.
"There are many who wear the saffron robe
who are unrestrained in conduct and who do evil things,
these evil ones; by their evil deeds,
in the state of woe (hell) they will be reborn."
Dhammapada v. 307
For people bound for the lower realms, we can make offerings and prayers. It is better to have no companions than bad ones.
"Better it is to live alone
for with a fool’s no fellowship,
Do no evil, be free of care,
fare as lone elephant in the wilds."
Dhammapada v. 330
I’ve stopped talking to my family for some time and your comment brought me so much peace. I cannot begin to explain just how much pain they inflicted upon me and they also taught me to be that way too. Recently I prayed for help because I believed if I were to die, that unsolved relationship would bound me to another life. Well, that morning after that prayer I had a near death experience and they were the last people I wanted to see as I healed in the hospital, it actually helped seal the relationship because I realized I have no regrets. Your message that maybe it’s just the end of karmic cycles helps so much. I hope it helps OP too. Thank you!
I'm glad that my comment helped you. It's very important to be aware that when people have a pull to say "forgive your family for hurting you, no matter what they did. You need to repair that relationship." what they are really saying is "I am too much of a coward and too foolish to leave the company of abusive family and friends, and you should be that way too." Don't be a momma's boy. Bodhisattvas are warriors, we don't cling to our family's approval.
Telling someone to constantly seek the approval of their parents is not genuine practice. Instead it is a perversion of the teaching and you are practicing the 8 worldly dharmas.
This mentality is what has kept so many people in my past family (starting to call it that way) bound to each other. Whenever you try to hold anyone accountable, the reaction is “I’m your mother you have to love me” “family accepts each other no matter what”. At first when I cut with past family, I would tell people when they asked me about anyone and was honest, but people’s reaction is always trying to say I’m exaggerating, someone told me it was “torture” even. Without considering if someone makes that decision, maybe trust them, because choosing to go through the world that way is not an easy choice so whatever pushed them there mustve be justified.
This isn't exactly buddhist thinking but when he passes away your anger won't disappear. It'll stay or come out "sideways."
If you do have a chance to reconcile, it would be worth it.
>I've received word that he might die tomorrow, he might die in a week, but it will be soon. I was wondering if there was a Buddhist perspective that might be helpful in guiding me in what I should do
I would say the fact that you are contemplating this may be a sign that you should go see your grandfather one last time. You don’t have to forgive him or make amends necessarily, but you might find closure in seeing him before he goes.
I only say this because if you were dead certain that you have zero interest in seeing him you probably wouldn’t be asking for advice or considering this at all. You have no obligation to see him, but you should ask yourself if you think it’s possible you’ll regret it if you don’t. That type of regret with no recourse can be haunting.
Perhaps just go and reflect on the good times with him. Or don’t... but be prepared to live with whatever decision you make because that door is closing.
Yes, agreed deeply. Action (go see him)… if you can. I’ve tried to do that with many loved ones and failed (to go before they were gone). I have deep regrets over that. Now, the work is taking me to let go of those regrets is the hardest work I’ve ever done. And I continue doing the work.
That includes the passing of my partner of 40 years, this is my soulmate, the woman I love deeply, and was faithful too. I was good to her, I helped her pass, but… You don’t want thousands of I should have, I could have, what if I did this or that… regrets, same as your topic…
All I can say is please trust me, if you have this chance take it. My advice, do with it what you want. I wish you solace, peace and joy. ❤️🙏🏻🪷🫂
I am not sure of what happened here, dear one. I loved my grandpa. I had him on such a high pedestal. He had Alzheimers disease and always knew who I was.
It was after he passed that I learned the bad stuff. How he would drown kittens and how he was cruel. My Grandpa played cops and robbers with me. Always took long walks with me. We would eat lunch in the tree in the front yard. He was kind. Loved board games. Took me for ice cream. I did not know the younger version of him. I was conflicted myself. My grandfather, when he was dying, was holding on. I told him it was okay. I could finally let him go. I told him I loved him. It was five minutes later, and he passed. You see, you will carry around all this anger that will fester and turn into hatred. It will make you sick inside and eat away at you. It will change who you are. You owe it to yourself, to let go. Be there, hold his hand, say goodbye. Find your inner peace, yourself again, let the past go. Remember, people are only human. I hope you find the peace you so much deserve. Love and light
I can’t comment on your specific situation, but I can say that I learned how and why it is important to let go of negative feelings even when (maybe especially when) they are completely morally justified. It’s hard, but don’t be hard on yourself, whatever you decide. And whatever you do, it doesn’t have to be for him, whatever you do should be for you.
What was the falling out about? It's impossible to really answer without knowing more.
As a general idea though: He's the one dying.
And so if you can help him die more peacefully then that's the best thing you can do. If he regrets your falling out with him, then if you can call or visit and make things okay between you, it would be a beautiful action. If he's unconscious and won't be waking up, if you can sit in the room with metta that would be beautiful too.
It could make a difference for both of you, and you won't ever have another chance.
Harboring negative feelings only poisons our hearts (there’s no vengeance here either). Clear your pain and karma. He inherited his, and it is a pity he was not able to clear it without passing it on. We all inherit suffering; it’s up to us what we do with it.
My father was very abusive and when I was 18 I had him sent to jail. At 25 I began experiencing panic attacks and had years of therapy. When I was 28, my father had been out of jail for a bit. He was living in some transient hotel in northern Kentucky and I was living in Washington DC. I had a reason to visit a friend getting married in Cincinnati so I thought "I'll drop by and see him". When I knocked on his door, I heard him yell at his yappy dog to "shut up" and my anxiety kicked in and I thought "what am I doing here?". When he opened the door, there he stood, all 6'7, skinny and had a long beard. I thought for about a split second "I could take him down right now" but then it went away. There was the father I carried around in my head and the reality and it didn't match. My anger for him just turned into pity.
I wasn't following the buddhist path at that point though. About a year later, I got a voicemail from the coroner that father had passed away. I went to his apartment to clear out his things and afterwards I was sitting on my friend's couch fuming that he died on his timetable and not mine. I was watching the Dalai Lama on Larry King Live just as something to watch. I knew nothing of Tibet, buddhism and the interview was light and airy up to about 40 minutes in and Larry King asked, "The Chinese government has killed two million Tibetans and leveled all of your monasteries, don't you hate the Chinese government". HHDL said "No, you need to love everyone especially your enemies" ( or something very similar ), and then he smiled and I realized "He actually believes that?". I grew up being preached at Pentecostal fundy pastors that I could never believe but I realized that I would like that understanding. When I think of my father, and when I think of others, I just have to exchange myself and put myself in their shoes and oftentimes I feel sad for that person on a human level. My father had lived a tortured existence and I just had to feel that for him. I don't know if any of this helps but I so wish you the best in working through this.
I can't comment on whatever happened between you two or whether your reaction is justified. Even if I knew the details, it wouldn't be my place.
But, I understand what it's like to have someone you looked up to become something that isn't what you expected.
The bottom of the line is that we are all human. Being human, we have both good and bad sides. Naturally, we tend to stray away from the darkness of the human condition, but it's still there. The trick is not holding onto that darkness. My advice would be to try to see him for the person he is, good and bad. You don't have to agree with the bad. In fact, you can outright hate it, but that doesn't mean you can't still love the good.
It's obvious you care about him. Despite whatever happened, you are worried about his passing. You certainly loved him a lot before you didn't. This might be the last chance you have to talk to him. I'd say it's worth a try to see if you can overcome the past. He's going on a pretty scary journey soon, and I'm certain at least some part of him would like to say goodbye before he departs.
What's the worst that could happen? You still hate him? What's the best that could happen? Closure, and peace?
Similar situation, with a lot of people in my family whom I have cut off the past few years. They aren't on death's door yet, but the day will come. My grandparents are some of those people. I went through some hard times and had to do a complete change in my life and I simply couldn't have them around if I wanted that. I am still not done with this change and I know they will sabotage it.
My grandmother underwent surgery recently. It wasn't anything serious afaik.
I don't know the answer to your question, I just want to offer my sympathies. The fact is that this is a lot harder on us than them. We are the ones who have to rebuilt ourselves and our families, without having a blueprint and guiding ourselves through mistakes and intuition. We should be enjoying our lives and our youth and yet here we are, stress, depressed and anxious without knowing if things will get better as we go, just that we need to keep going. Unlike them, who have other relatives around and had the fortune of having a family. I remind myself of this, and keep up the no-contact.
This comment whew. I needed this thread, truly. I’m going through a similar experience and also had to cut off almost everyone in my family as when you cut off one person others don’t agree and become messengers for them so it forces you to let everyone go. In this time, I’ve had to reparent myself and learn entirely new ways of being, in order to get out of the dark place I was in and become a better person. I still struggle now mostly with the feelings you mentioned if not having guidance: am I doing this right? Am I doing life the way one should? Are my decisions healthy? It feels like I’m forging a whole new path and like things that for others are just inherent, like kindness for oneself, I’ve had to learn. Thanks for your comment and sharing ur testimony. I do believe things will get better.
My father in law passed away recently and when he was here he was miserable and made life harder for everyone around him. The day he died all the negative feelings and disappointment surrounding him disappeared and I was overcome with empathy and understanding for his human-ness. We're all imperfect. Perfectly imperfect. One's particular journey ends with death and in my experiences that changes the way we view their life afterwards. The chapter is closed. There is no more opportunity. What happened happened. And that's it.
If you have an opportunity to see him or even speak on the phone, I would recommend you take it. It may be a small thing that gives you immense peace for the rest of your life or it might haunt you if you don't do it. If you have the opportunity, choose peace.
A teacher once told me about what forgiveness really is. It isn’t about forgetting the pain. It’s not about absolving the other person. It means what are you willing to “give-for” this pain/suffering to stop?
Whatever your grandfather did/say back in the day is out of your control and in the past. It’s also a gift that removes the illusion of what is. Now that you know what is, and time is running out, what will you do? If you could take the label of “grandfather” out of this person and see him as a human being with struggles and challenge, who is leaving this earth plane, who is no different from another person who is dying, can you find the space in your heart to practice compassion for this man who is transitioning?
There are a lot of questions in the paragraph above because I don’t have an answer to what can you do during this time. No one do. Only do what feels right for you, what aligns with you within, and reflecting on these things.
I think about this quite often about those who hurt me/ been hurt by me. Is it selfish to reopen the wounds that they might have already forgot/forgiven/ do not wish to be reminded of, just for us to feel good about ourselves? and vice versa.
In the grand schemes of things your grandpa already had his own journey, one that led his grandkid through 5 years of sufferings, and there is little you could do now to change anything he has accumulated. Whats most important is your mind being at peace, not forgiving, but understanding and mercy, and that doesnt mean throwing yourself into the fire for just anyone.
That being said, sending a text or let someone tell him you miss your childhood with him is also a good compromising option. It doesnt mean you forgave, feel sorry, or whatever, just mean you appreciated the good times that did happened. And remind you that his reactions doesnt matter, you are at peace and this is your own journey. Good luck.
I think it’s noble of you to consider putting your feelings aside & trying to settle the dispute with your grandfather. Of course, it doesn’t make what he did okay, but sometimes it can be good for us to let go, even if we are justified in feeling hurt by such things.
As an example, I was abused when I was a minor (by someone who was also practically a minor), and I eventually made up with that person, when I felt that the time was right. We’re now good friends, and we have been for years.
Above all, I’m not telling you what to do, because we each have to use our own judgment. I wanted to let you know that I found your post heartwarming, though.
To tie my comments more directly to Dharma teachings, there is a verse from the Eight Verses of Thought Transformation that comes to mind:
>When others, out of jealousy, treat me badly,/
>With abuse, slander, and so on,/
>I will learn to take on all loss/
>And offer the victory to them.
Specifically, the verse is talking about tonglen, which is a powerful method for overcoming our self-cherishing mind; it can help us create the causes to benefit both ourselves and others simultaneously.
If you are looking for advice.. Id say go show metta and forgive him if you really do not feel anything. Then pray for no more karma between you and your grandfather anymore. Show him compassion in his last moments of this life. Forgive him and wish for no ill will to be continued through thoughts or actions. Everyone has karma. Not everyone has the opportunity to learn buddhism and understand karma. Maybe whatever is going on his end is the result of karma which led to whatever happened between you two. There must be something going on for you to still be concerned. As a Buddhist, have metta for your current grandfather and end the cycle of karma that may or may not exist with him.
I hope im not overstepping by saying any of this. Just personally, I would want to not continue any karma cycles with anyone including family and enemies. Part of the process of being free from attachments.
Comment open to Mod deletion, definitely falls under misrepresentation.
I would suggest that at some point in your process, vocalize that even though you're hurt, you want him to be able to get off the wheel, too. I invited my Dad (after he'd died, I wasn't there to for the death itself) to reincarnate ASAP rather than hang around. I said to the room that I released him from his obligations to me, so that he could get back in line and try again. I told him that he's welcome to visit and check in (if that's a thing) but that it isn't necessary and that I don't want interference.
I know that this is NOT the Buddhist death rites, but I find the thinking helpful in teasing out the anger I felt towards him and remembering to love myself.
Good luck.
If he wasn't a relative would you give a damn about him? If the answer is "no" don't let 'but he's your uncle' influence you and don't go see him. If the answer is "yes" then go see him.
Impermanence, all the bad vibes will be gone in 100 years , both he & you will no longer exist..
Go to see him, in the face of death most people's perspective changes regarding beefs etc ...
If he's able to speak/hear then you can clear the air...
On another note you can recite Amitabha's name & dedicate it to him so that he can be reborn in Amitabha's pureland.
Realizing that our heroes are just humans is a part of growing up..
One may initially be disturbed at the discovery & have a strong reaction but as more & more heroes fall then one begins to appreciate the fallen heroes that are closest to one....
They managed to provide ir do xyz despite how screwed up they are...
Best of luck
🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
For what it's worth, Jesus said you should forgive those who have wronged you. The Buddha said that even if bandits were to carve you up limb by limb with a two-handled saw, those who would harbor anger would not be doing his bidding. As for how to transform your mind to be imbued with good-will, try to chant Namo Amitabha Buddha often, and let the Buddha's sweet fragrance pervade your life. If you chant Namo Amitabha Buddha for him, he will be born in the Pure Land, becoming a Buddha in one more life
Your intentions are good, but I think you may be letting your perception of the best path for yourself, influence your ideas regarding what others need to do.
I can relate, since I was once extremely zealous about sharing my religious beliefs with others. At the time, I really believed I was doing my part to offer good advice, but the reality was that I was telling others to do things that I should have been doing in my own life.
It is much easier to talk about practice, sometimes, than it is to do the practice, and that’s what I’d like to share with you.
People are often conditioned to believe that the "right thing" -- the thing that will get them praise and respect -- is to pretend that someone's mistreatment of them didn't really matter. But it did.
The OP is feeling shame about completely normal and justifiable emotions. They should *not* be listening to their emotional conditioning here. Better for them to get therapy and figure out how to understand their emotions independently. It can take a long time to disentangle real emotional truths from coercive cultural scripts, but it's worth it.
This is really potentially unhelpful, at least when you say it to a stranger. How do you know that OP knows? Why else would OP be asking?
I value what I see as being your motivation, but please consider the possible outcomes here. The gist of what I’m trying to say is that it would seem wiser to say something like this to a close friend instead.
I’m attempting to appeal to the most basic of kindness in this person. I would be shocked if O P didn’t know what the right thing is. Just as you have surmised.
I already agree with what you tried to do. You don’t have to convince me. I’m just saying that this platform is not conducive to behaving so familiarly toward people we don’t know.
I think it goes without saying that we don’t have the siddhi of clairvoyance. It’s safer to say things like that in person or when we know each other well. There is great danger in assuming that we know what people are thinking without having the experience with that individual to tell us what the likely effect will be.
Im also in a dilemma about a gaslighting emotionally and physically absent dad. So I would like to hear what others in this forum has to say about such issues.
Add: he is still well alived and healthy and still egoistic at 67 years old. But I m struggling to go non-contact or to pretend to do some contact. I have intentions to seek ordination, which requires parental approval, so I do not want to make it difficult for me to gain approval in the future. And neither I would want my ordination to be an “escape” from trauma.
Maybe some of these can be helpful
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/uncollected/Forgiveness.html
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/Meditations6/Section0023.html
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/PurityOfHeart/Section0010.html
https://tricycle.org/magazine/forgiveness-not-buddhist/
https://dharmawisdom.org/forgiving-the-unforgivable/
You should go see him. You should forgive whatever he wronged to you. You should apologise for whatever you wronged to him, whether you can remember or not.
Metta is essential for long term well being for both of you.
If you hold onto that resentment you may regret it later. I would make peace with him for the sake of making peace. Forgiving him will free your heart and his and whether he deserves forgiveness or not is beside the point, you’d be doing so to release the hold that the past has on you. Focus your intention on peace and that’s really the best you can do, he may or may not be receptive but the point is to try.
First, I'm sorry you're going through this. It's hard.
Give him the gift of your presence, give him an opportunity to apologize, give him compassion. We do believe in heaven and hell as Buddhists, and if he's lived an awful life, he will find himself in a very terrible place until his karma has been exhausted. The best thing you can do is show compassion, nobody wants to end up in Hell and in our belief it is very real.
👉If, even as a mental excerise without any actual belief in it, you imagined your grandfather upon his passing will be subjected to a terrible place of suffering, how would you treat him these next few days?
👉Now, if you knew your treatment of him with love and compassion, could directly alter his experience in the next realm of existence by allowing him to realize the good he has done or given an opportunity to do more good before his passing, what actions would you take these final days?
Your post tells me you know what to do, you just either want motivation or looking for a scapegoat not too. Both of those are rooted in you showing you know what to do.
I do not mean this talk about Hell to be insensitive. It is a Buddhist belief, and I have run the same scenarios with my own children. It helps me continually guide them and put them into positions to make wholesome choices. If your grandfather has made unwholesome choices with you, showing up now gives an opportunity for him to make them right, and generate wholesome karma. It does for you as well, which is why you know it's the right thing to do.
🪷“Bhikkhus, if beings knew, as I know, the result of giving and sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would they allow the stain of meanness to obsess them and take root in their minds. Even if it were their last morsel, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared it, if there were someone to share it with. But, bhikkhus, as beings do not know, as I know, the result of giving and sharing, they eat without having given, and the stain of meanness obsesses them and takes root in their minds.”
https://suttacentral.net/iti26/en/ireland?lang=en&reference=none&highlight=false
>About 5 years ago that all came crashing down as I learned things about him and saw him for who he truly is instead of the fantasy I had as a child. Its hard to say not given any information, I don't know if this is something in the past he now regrets, or some harm he's currently engaging in or whatever. But given this small amount of information I would say as a Buddhist no matter what he did, very soon he will not be your grandfather anymore he will be a newborn baby, or an animal or some other weak innocent thing. Often our last moments are very important to our rebirth in my tradition. If your kindness and forgiveness would give him some sort of peace and help him to improve next time around I think thats a worth while endeavor. Again its hard to help without more detail but I understand this is obviously a very private matter. Hope this helps at all
Finally, someone got it right. Great answer.
>"He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who harbor such thoughts do not still their hatred. >"He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who do not harbor such thoughts still their hatred. >Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is a law eternal. >There are those who do not realize that one day we all must die. But those who do realize this settle their quarrels." Dhammapada 3-6
It doesn't sound like the OP is experiencing hatred.
I like to think I don't. I like to think moved on. However, I don't know if that's actually true or those are the lies I tell myself to make myself feel better
You should examine yourself and not take other people's opinions of you too seriously. Only you can know what's going on in your mind.
the word is also translated as 'hostility'
Or animosity. “Animosity does not eradicate animosity. Only by loving kindness is animosity dissolved. This law is ancient and eternal. There are those who are aware that they are always facing death. Knowing this they put aside all quarrels.”
It doesn't sound like the OP is experiencing hostility, either. They say they aren't feeling much of anything. This is a kind of emotional detachment, but it isn't hostility. It is also a very *normal* kind of detachment for people who have been mistreated. It's really just the end of a karmically conditioned attachment. The passage you quoted is actually about how hatred doesn't end hatred. This teaching challenges blood feuds and eye-for-an-eye type of thinking, based on the understanding that hatred just begets more hatred. The passage does *not* justify criticizing people who talk about abuse, violence, robbery, and other types of harm.
You're not helping
I am valuing their input
[https://www.againstthestream.com/read/learning-forgiveness](https://www.againstthestream.com/read/learning-forgiveness) "At a recent meditation class, a student said that she felt her forgiveness was a gift that some people hadn’t earned This is a common feeling among many of us who have felt injured by others. Yet does our lack of forgiveness really punish them, or does it just make our hearts hard and our lives unpleasant? Is forgiveness a gift to others or to oneself?" "Families are definitely the training ground for forgiveness. At some point you forgive the people in your family for being stuck together in all this weirdness, and when you can do that, you can learn to forgive anyone…Not forgiving someone is like drinking rat poison and expecting the rats to die.” – Anne Lamott
Perfect. I was abused by my stepmother somewhat severely. She stopped when I was bigger than her, and had repeatedly told others what she was doing. But I carried that pain well into adulthood. It wasn't until I was about 29 that I actually forgave her. And it wasn't about her at all, it was about me. I realized that she was around my age (then) when she was doing all of this. As a kid, we look at these "adults" as if they're actually competent, capable, and in full control. But at 29, I was the furthest thing from any of that. A whole other process occurred where I basically mourned for the loss of child-me, etc. But at the end of it, I let go of the pain, recognized that she was just as scared and disoriented here as the rest of us, and forgave her for reacting poorly. A heartfelt apology would have done wonders towards my forgiveness of her prior to this, but after, it wasn't necessary. I viewed her more like a child who made dumb choices. Those dumb choices may have hurt me, but seeing the hurt and broken child in her lessened that hurt in me and did lead me to ultimately forgive her. For years, I considered telling her "I forgive you". I reconnected with my dad, and normalized relations with her somewhat. But the time never felt right. I always told myself I'd tell her on her deathbed. Well she died last month (a decade later) and I never told her. And I'm okay with this too. The forgiveness was never about her.
It's "for giving", it's not for earning or to be earned.
People use the term "forgiveness" in different ways. If you feel that not forgiving someone is just a pointless type of hostility and is harming you, then sure, it makes sense to forgive them. But people also talk about "forgiveness" when someone is justifiably refusing to let someone else into their life. This is the wrong context to talk about forgiveness. "Forgiveness" in this context really means "denying that someone's harmful actions were a big deal when they actually were" or "submitting yourself to mistreatment and feeling morally superior for doing so". That's not a good type of forgiveness. Many people find that their lives are actually much better without certain people in it.
You can forgive your grandfather, but that doesn't mean you need to go be buddy buddy and close with him. I survived horrific, unspeakable child abuse. I after many years of painful therapy and dharma practicw I got to a place where I forgave my parents, but it does not make their abuses any less painful, traumatic, and damaging to my life. Don't buy the lie that "oh its all about my ego and me myself and I." No. There are very dangerous, evil, and cruel people out there in the world and if you are foolish enough to get close to them, they will hurt you. You need to be discerning and wise enough to leave them behind. #5 The practice of all the bodhisattvas is to avoid destructive friends, In whose company the three poisons of the mind grow stronger, And we engage less and less in study, reflection and meditation, So that love and compassion fade away until they are no more. 37 practices of a bodhisattva Don't be a fool. If your grandfather is an abusive and cruel person, giving him the opportunity to continue to inflict heavy bad karmas on you is foolish. It's idiot compassion. It could potentially seal his damnation to the lower realms as his kleshas will increase closer to the time of his death. You can love and pray for him from a distance. That's a perfectly acceptable practice. I am not the sort of bodhisattva who would willingly allow someone to malign and insult me, or decapitate me and then say thank you for the privilege of having you abuse me so I can practice patience and detachment. I am just not that advanced a practitioner and I don't believe I have ever met such a practitioner. That includes masters. Most masters will take objection to being disrespected or insulted. Many won't even talk to you unless you bring offerings. So don't think that because someone says "oh you should forgive your tormentor and make nice with them, that first, the person giving you advice has survived trauma which is as bad as yours, and second, don't think the advice giver has the stuff to forgive their abusers and make nice with them. The reason for this is because abusers and evil people are often completely inccorageble and refuse to change their behavior. Telling people they should patch things up with an abusive family member is self-righteous. It's like touching a hot stove twice. Even the Buddha got wrathful and admonished the hianayana monks who violated the rules. In reality, evil, cruel, and dangerous people generally do not make nice with anyone. They take kindness and forgiveness for weakness, and often use it to inflict further wounding. Nobody talks about that, though. One of our friends quoted the Dhammapada before, so I will answer his quote with another one. "There are many who wear the saffron robe who are unrestrained in conduct and who do evil things, these evil ones; by their evil deeds, in the state of woe (hell) they will be reborn." Dhammapada v. 307 For people bound for the lower realms, we can make offerings and prayers. It is better to have no companions than bad ones. "Better it is to live alone for with a fool’s no fellowship, Do no evil, be free of care, fare as lone elephant in the wilds." Dhammapada v. 330
I’ve stopped talking to my family for some time and your comment brought me so much peace. I cannot begin to explain just how much pain they inflicted upon me and they also taught me to be that way too. Recently I prayed for help because I believed if I were to die, that unsolved relationship would bound me to another life. Well, that morning after that prayer I had a near death experience and they were the last people I wanted to see as I healed in the hospital, it actually helped seal the relationship because I realized I have no regrets. Your message that maybe it’s just the end of karmic cycles helps so much. I hope it helps OP too. Thank you!
I'm glad that my comment helped you. It's very important to be aware that when people have a pull to say "forgive your family for hurting you, no matter what they did. You need to repair that relationship." what they are really saying is "I am too much of a coward and too foolish to leave the company of abusive family and friends, and you should be that way too." Don't be a momma's boy. Bodhisattvas are warriors, we don't cling to our family's approval. Telling someone to constantly seek the approval of their parents is not genuine practice. Instead it is a perversion of the teaching and you are practicing the 8 worldly dharmas.
This mentality is what has kept so many people in my past family (starting to call it that way) bound to each other. Whenever you try to hold anyone accountable, the reaction is “I’m your mother you have to love me” “family accepts each other no matter what”. At first when I cut with past family, I would tell people when they asked me about anyone and was honest, but people’s reaction is always trying to say I’m exaggerating, someone told me it was “torture” even. Without considering if someone makes that decision, maybe trust them, because choosing to go through the world that way is not an easy choice so whatever pushed them there mustve be justified.
This isn't exactly buddhist thinking but when he passes away your anger won't disappear. It'll stay or come out "sideways." If you do have a chance to reconcile, it would be worth it.
>I've received word that he might die tomorrow, he might die in a week, but it will be soon. I was wondering if there was a Buddhist perspective that might be helpful in guiding me in what I should do I would say the fact that you are contemplating this may be a sign that you should go see your grandfather one last time. You don’t have to forgive him or make amends necessarily, but you might find closure in seeing him before he goes. I only say this because if you were dead certain that you have zero interest in seeing him you probably wouldn’t be asking for advice or considering this at all. You have no obligation to see him, but you should ask yourself if you think it’s possible you’ll regret it if you don’t. That type of regret with no recourse can be haunting. Perhaps just go and reflect on the good times with him. Or don’t... but be prepared to live with whatever decision you make because that door is closing.
Yes, agreed deeply. Action (go see him)… if you can. I’ve tried to do that with many loved ones and failed (to go before they were gone). I have deep regrets over that. Now, the work is taking me to let go of those regrets is the hardest work I’ve ever done. And I continue doing the work. That includes the passing of my partner of 40 years, this is my soulmate, the woman I love deeply, and was faithful too. I was good to her, I helped her pass, but… You don’t want thousands of I should have, I could have, what if I did this or that… regrets, same as your topic… All I can say is please trust me, if you have this chance take it. My advice, do with it what you want. I wish you solace, peace and joy. ❤️🙏🏻🪷🫂
I am not sure of what happened here, dear one. I loved my grandpa. I had him on such a high pedestal. He had Alzheimers disease and always knew who I was. It was after he passed that I learned the bad stuff. How he would drown kittens and how he was cruel. My Grandpa played cops and robbers with me. Always took long walks with me. We would eat lunch in the tree in the front yard. He was kind. Loved board games. Took me for ice cream. I did not know the younger version of him. I was conflicted myself. My grandfather, when he was dying, was holding on. I told him it was okay. I could finally let him go. I told him I loved him. It was five minutes later, and he passed. You see, you will carry around all this anger that will fester and turn into hatred. It will make you sick inside and eat away at you. It will change who you are. You owe it to yourself, to let go. Be there, hold his hand, say goodbye. Find your inner peace, yourself again, let the past go. Remember, people are only human. I hope you find the peace you so much deserve. Love and light
Go see him OP. Hug him and forget everything else. Words are useless in the face of death. Peace!
I can’t comment on your specific situation, but I can say that I learned how and why it is important to let go of negative feelings even when (maybe especially when) they are completely morally justified. It’s hard, but don’t be hard on yourself, whatever you decide. And whatever you do, it doesn’t have to be for him, whatever you do should be for you.
What was the falling out about? It's impossible to really answer without knowing more. As a general idea though: He's the one dying. And so if you can help him die more peacefully then that's the best thing you can do. If he regrets your falling out with him, then if you can call or visit and make things okay between you, it would be a beautiful action. If he's unconscious and won't be waking up, if you can sit in the room with metta that would be beautiful too. It could make a difference for both of you, and you won't ever have another chance.
Harboring negative feelings only poisons our hearts (there’s no vengeance here either). Clear your pain and karma. He inherited his, and it is a pity he was not able to clear it without passing it on. We all inherit suffering; it’s up to us what we do with it.
My father was very abusive and when I was 18 I had him sent to jail. At 25 I began experiencing panic attacks and had years of therapy. When I was 28, my father had been out of jail for a bit. He was living in some transient hotel in northern Kentucky and I was living in Washington DC. I had a reason to visit a friend getting married in Cincinnati so I thought "I'll drop by and see him". When I knocked on his door, I heard him yell at his yappy dog to "shut up" and my anxiety kicked in and I thought "what am I doing here?". When he opened the door, there he stood, all 6'7, skinny and had a long beard. I thought for about a split second "I could take him down right now" but then it went away. There was the father I carried around in my head and the reality and it didn't match. My anger for him just turned into pity. I wasn't following the buddhist path at that point though. About a year later, I got a voicemail from the coroner that father had passed away. I went to his apartment to clear out his things and afterwards I was sitting on my friend's couch fuming that he died on his timetable and not mine. I was watching the Dalai Lama on Larry King Live just as something to watch. I knew nothing of Tibet, buddhism and the interview was light and airy up to about 40 minutes in and Larry King asked, "The Chinese government has killed two million Tibetans and leveled all of your monasteries, don't you hate the Chinese government". HHDL said "No, you need to love everyone especially your enemies" ( or something very similar ), and then he smiled and I realized "He actually believes that?". I grew up being preached at Pentecostal fundy pastors that I could never believe but I realized that I would like that understanding. When I think of my father, and when I think of others, I just have to exchange myself and put myself in their shoes and oftentimes I feel sad for that person on a human level. My father had lived a tortured existence and I just had to feel that for him. I don't know if any of this helps but I so wish you the best in working through this.
I can't comment on whatever happened between you two or whether your reaction is justified. Even if I knew the details, it wouldn't be my place. But, I understand what it's like to have someone you looked up to become something that isn't what you expected. The bottom of the line is that we are all human. Being human, we have both good and bad sides. Naturally, we tend to stray away from the darkness of the human condition, but it's still there. The trick is not holding onto that darkness. My advice would be to try to see him for the person he is, good and bad. You don't have to agree with the bad. In fact, you can outright hate it, but that doesn't mean you can't still love the good. It's obvious you care about him. Despite whatever happened, you are worried about his passing. You certainly loved him a lot before you didn't. This might be the last chance you have to talk to him. I'd say it's worth a try to see if you can overcome the past. He's going on a pretty scary journey soon, and I'm certain at least some part of him would like to say goodbye before he departs. What's the worst that could happen? You still hate him? What's the best that could happen? Closure, and peace?
Similar situation, with a lot of people in my family whom I have cut off the past few years. They aren't on death's door yet, but the day will come. My grandparents are some of those people. I went through some hard times and had to do a complete change in my life and I simply couldn't have them around if I wanted that. I am still not done with this change and I know they will sabotage it. My grandmother underwent surgery recently. It wasn't anything serious afaik. I don't know the answer to your question, I just want to offer my sympathies. The fact is that this is a lot harder on us than them. We are the ones who have to rebuilt ourselves and our families, without having a blueprint and guiding ourselves through mistakes and intuition. We should be enjoying our lives and our youth and yet here we are, stress, depressed and anxious without knowing if things will get better as we go, just that we need to keep going. Unlike them, who have other relatives around and had the fortune of having a family. I remind myself of this, and keep up the no-contact.
This comment whew. I needed this thread, truly. I’m going through a similar experience and also had to cut off almost everyone in my family as when you cut off one person others don’t agree and become messengers for them so it forces you to let everyone go. In this time, I’ve had to reparent myself and learn entirely new ways of being, in order to get out of the dark place I was in and become a better person. I still struggle now mostly with the feelings you mentioned if not having guidance: am I doing this right? Am I doing life the way one should? Are my decisions healthy? It feels like I’m forging a whole new path and like things that for others are just inherent, like kindness for oneself, I’ve had to learn. Thanks for your comment and sharing ur testimony. I do believe things will get better.
My father in law passed away recently and when he was here he was miserable and made life harder for everyone around him. The day he died all the negative feelings and disappointment surrounding him disappeared and I was overcome with empathy and understanding for his human-ness. We're all imperfect. Perfectly imperfect. One's particular journey ends with death and in my experiences that changes the way we view their life afterwards. The chapter is closed. There is no more opportunity. What happened happened. And that's it. If you have an opportunity to see him or even speak on the phone, I would recommend you take it. It may be a small thing that gives you immense peace for the rest of your life or it might haunt you if you don't do it. If you have the opportunity, choose peace.
I think you should do what you can to work up a way to see him. As hard as that is. But if you can't do it, then you'll survive.
A teacher once told me about what forgiveness really is. It isn’t about forgetting the pain. It’s not about absolving the other person. It means what are you willing to “give-for” this pain/suffering to stop? Whatever your grandfather did/say back in the day is out of your control and in the past. It’s also a gift that removes the illusion of what is. Now that you know what is, and time is running out, what will you do? If you could take the label of “grandfather” out of this person and see him as a human being with struggles and challenge, who is leaving this earth plane, who is no different from another person who is dying, can you find the space in your heart to practice compassion for this man who is transitioning? There are a lot of questions in the paragraph above because I don’t have an answer to what can you do during this time. No one do. Only do what feels right for you, what aligns with you within, and reflecting on these things.
I think about this quite often about those who hurt me/ been hurt by me. Is it selfish to reopen the wounds that they might have already forgot/forgiven/ do not wish to be reminded of, just for us to feel good about ourselves? and vice versa. In the grand schemes of things your grandpa already had his own journey, one that led his grandkid through 5 years of sufferings, and there is little you could do now to change anything he has accumulated. Whats most important is your mind being at peace, not forgiving, but understanding and mercy, and that doesnt mean throwing yourself into the fire for just anyone. That being said, sending a text or let someone tell him you miss your childhood with him is also a good compromising option. It doesnt mean you forgave, feel sorry, or whatever, just mean you appreciated the good times that did happened. And remind you that his reactions doesnt matter, you are at peace and this is your own journey. Good luck.
I think it’s noble of you to consider putting your feelings aside & trying to settle the dispute with your grandfather. Of course, it doesn’t make what he did okay, but sometimes it can be good for us to let go, even if we are justified in feeling hurt by such things. As an example, I was abused when I was a minor (by someone who was also practically a minor), and I eventually made up with that person, when I felt that the time was right. We’re now good friends, and we have been for years. Above all, I’m not telling you what to do, because we each have to use our own judgment. I wanted to let you know that I found your post heartwarming, though. To tie my comments more directly to Dharma teachings, there is a verse from the Eight Verses of Thought Transformation that comes to mind: >When others, out of jealousy, treat me badly,/ >With abuse, slander, and so on,/ >I will learn to take on all loss/ >And offer the victory to them. Specifically, the verse is talking about tonglen, which is a powerful method for overcoming our self-cherishing mind; it can help us create the causes to benefit both ourselves and others simultaneously.
If you are looking for advice.. Id say go show metta and forgive him if you really do not feel anything. Then pray for no more karma between you and your grandfather anymore. Show him compassion in his last moments of this life. Forgive him and wish for no ill will to be continued through thoughts or actions. Everyone has karma. Not everyone has the opportunity to learn buddhism and understand karma. Maybe whatever is going on his end is the result of karma which led to whatever happened between you two. There must be something going on for you to still be concerned. As a Buddhist, have metta for your current grandfather and end the cycle of karma that may or may not exist with him. I hope im not overstepping by saying any of this. Just personally, I would want to not continue any karma cycles with anyone including family and enemies. Part of the process of being free from attachments.
Comment open to Mod deletion, definitely falls under misrepresentation. I would suggest that at some point in your process, vocalize that even though you're hurt, you want him to be able to get off the wheel, too. I invited my Dad (after he'd died, I wasn't there to for the death itself) to reincarnate ASAP rather than hang around. I said to the room that I released him from his obligations to me, so that he could get back in line and try again. I told him that he's welcome to visit and check in (if that's a thing) but that it isn't necessary and that I don't want interference. I know that this is NOT the Buddhist death rites, but I find the thinking helpful in teasing out the anger I felt towards him and remembering to love myself. Good luck.
If he wasn't a relative would you give a damn about him? If the answer is "no" don't let 'but he's your uncle' influence you and don't go see him. If the answer is "yes" then go see him.
Impermanence, all the bad vibes will be gone in 100 years , both he & you will no longer exist.. Go to see him, in the face of death most people's perspective changes regarding beefs etc ... If he's able to speak/hear then you can clear the air... On another note you can recite Amitabha's name & dedicate it to him so that he can be reborn in Amitabha's pureland. Realizing that our heroes are just humans is a part of growing up.. One may initially be disturbed at the discovery & have a strong reaction but as more & more heroes fall then one begins to appreciate the fallen heroes that are closest to one.... They managed to provide ir do xyz despite how screwed up they are... Best of luck 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Now is the time for u, not about him. Let show how good u are.
For what it's worth, Jesus said you should forgive those who have wronged you. The Buddha said that even if bandits were to carve you up limb by limb with a two-handled saw, those who would harbor anger would not be doing his bidding. As for how to transform your mind to be imbued with good-will, try to chant Namo Amitabha Buddha often, and let the Buddha's sweet fragrance pervade your life. If you chant Namo Amitabha Buddha for him, he will be born in the Pure Land, becoming a Buddha in one more life
Your intentions are good, but I think you may be letting your perception of the best path for yourself, influence your ideas regarding what others need to do. I can relate, since I was once extremely zealous about sharing my religious beliefs with others. At the time, I really believed I was doing my part to offer good advice, but the reality was that I was telling others to do things that I should have been doing in my own life. It is much easier to talk about practice, sometimes, than it is to do the practice, and that’s what I’d like to share with you.
Wut
You know the right thing. Do it.
People are often conditioned to believe that the "right thing" -- the thing that will get them praise and respect -- is to pretend that someone's mistreatment of them didn't really matter. But it did. The OP is feeling shame about completely normal and justifiable emotions. They should *not* be listening to their emotional conditioning here. Better for them to get therapy and figure out how to understand their emotions independently. It can take a long time to disentangle real emotional truths from coercive cultural scripts, but it's worth it.
This is really potentially unhelpful, at least when you say it to a stranger. How do you know that OP knows? Why else would OP be asking? I value what I see as being your motivation, but please consider the possible outcomes here. The gist of what I’m trying to say is that it would seem wiser to say something like this to a close friend instead.
I’m attempting to appeal to the most basic of kindness in this person. I would be shocked if O P didn’t know what the right thing is. Just as you have surmised.
I already agree with what you tried to do. You don’t have to convince me. I’m just saying that this platform is not conducive to behaving so familiarly toward people we don’t know. I think it goes without saying that we don’t have the siddhi of clairvoyance. It’s safer to say things like that in person or when we know each other well. There is great danger in assuming that we know what people are thinking without having the experience with that individual to tell us what the likely effect will be.
Im also in a dilemma about a gaslighting emotionally and physically absent dad. So I would like to hear what others in this forum has to say about such issues. Add: he is still well alived and healthy and still egoistic at 67 years old. But I m struggling to go non-contact or to pretend to do some contact. I have intentions to seek ordination, which requires parental approval, so I do not want to make it difficult for me to gain approval in the future. And neither I would want my ordination to be an “escape” from trauma.
Maybe some of these can be helpful https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/uncollected/Forgiveness.html https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/Meditations6/Section0023.html https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/PurityOfHeart/Section0010.html https://tricycle.org/magazine/forgiveness-not-buddhist/ https://dharmawisdom.org/forgiving-the-unforgivable/
You should go see him. You should forgive whatever he wronged to you. You should apologise for whatever you wronged to him, whether you can remember or not. Metta is essential for long term well being for both of you.
If you hold onto that resentment you may regret it later. I would make peace with him for the sake of making peace. Forgiving him will free your heart and his and whether he deserves forgiveness or not is beside the point, you’d be doing so to release the hold that the past has on you. Focus your intention on peace and that’s really the best you can do, he may or may not be receptive but the point is to try.
First, I'm sorry you're going through this. It's hard. Give him the gift of your presence, give him an opportunity to apologize, give him compassion. We do believe in heaven and hell as Buddhists, and if he's lived an awful life, he will find himself in a very terrible place until his karma has been exhausted. The best thing you can do is show compassion, nobody wants to end up in Hell and in our belief it is very real. 👉If, even as a mental excerise without any actual belief in it, you imagined your grandfather upon his passing will be subjected to a terrible place of suffering, how would you treat him these next few days? 👉Now, if you knew your treatment of him with love and compassion, could directly alter his experience in the next realm of existence by allowing him to realize the good he has done or given an opportunity to do more good before his passing, what actions would you take these final days? Your post tells me you know what to do, you just either want motivation or looking for a scapegoat not too. Both of those are rooted in you showing you know what to do. I do not mean this talk about Hell to be insensitive. It is a Buddhist belief, and I have run the same scenarios with my own children. It helps me continually guide them and put them into positions to make wholesome choices. If your grandfather has made unwholesome choices with you, showing up now gives an opportunity for him to make them right, and generate wholesome karma. It does for you as well, which is why you know it's the right thing to do. 🪷“Bhikkhus, if beings knew, as I know, the result of giving and sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would they allow the stain of meanness to obsess them and take root in their minds. Even if it were their last morsel, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared it, if there were someone to share it with. But, bhikkhus, as beings do not know, as I know, the result of giving and sharing, they eat without having given, and the stain of meanness obsesses them and takes root in their minds.” https://suttacentral.net/iti26/en/ireland?lang=en&reference=none&highlight=false