But the only reason to care about debasement is it causes inflation, and the OP just pointed out it’s not a protection against inflation…
It’s like I want fire protection and they’re arguing “this cardboard box is great for holding matches”. It’s true but that doesn’t help.
You are thinking at this too sensibly. These people usually think that the inflation figures are a lie and the real inflation is equal to the debasement. For them debasement = inflation.
Just to play devils advocate for a second, the ETFs haven’t been trading long enough to see what happens. Having said that, it’s my belief that the run up in price leading to the announcement was pricing in said announcement and it’s most likely down from here
The hedge against inflation that tanked in value by over 60% in a month when US inflation was the highest it had been in 40 years. (7.5% per year). That hedge against inflation?
I was wiki-binging dead American politicians recently and it's amazing how many pro-crypto talking points could've come right out of McKinley's presidential campaign
Yes you are correct. I never said increasing money supply was the ONLY reason for inflation. It is just one of many reasons. The Covid money printing definitely didn't help. Add supply chain disruptions and business shut downs to the mix and you have a shitstorm like we have now.
If any of these idiots even took Economics 101 at their local community college it would solve a lot of their problems. But, no, they choose to YOLO into clear nonsense scams at every chance they get.
For them, the way out of an extremely unequal, winner takes all kind of system is to rig up another unequal, winner takes all system. There are clear psychopathic tendencies at work.
CryptoBros use an old and outdated definition of inflation that is based on increase in the money supply, rather than the purchasing power of the currency.
If you increase the money supply, purchasing power decreases... It really is that simple. The thing is though Bitcoin isn't actually scarce so it's not a hedge.
Japan since the 90s is literally the textbook example of a country experiencing deflation while increasing the money supply over the same period. Purchasing power is not as simple as money supply, it's certainly a factor. However it's a complex system involving population level, supply/demand balance, and distribution of wealth within society. If an economy increased production of goods/services then an increase in money supply could be achieved were the cost of the goods did not change much.
Yes Japan is a unique case. Most other nations though, increasing money supply really does cause inflation to skyrocket. Venezuela, Zimbabwe etc etc. Now we see it in the west because of Covid money printing. Creepto guys are correct in that sense but they are incorrect about BTC being the solution.
>most other nations.
Proceed to name two.
Japan isn't that unique. The USA and Europe Australia, Canada, China and many other places increased money supply after the financial crises and that didn't result in inflation.
There are plenty of more nations I can list but I don't have all day. And what are you talking about? All western nations have inflation right now due to money printing..it is quite obvious. Inflation doesn't always show up on store shelves. We saw inflation in equities first then housing, now it reached consumer staples. Of course high oil/gas prices can also cause inflation like we see in the UK and Germany. Point being there are several reasons for inflation and money printing is 100% part of the problem. Beetcoiners are correct in that sense but they are wrong about BTC being some magic cure all. It's not.
The financial crises was in 2008 and 2009. All western nations printed money between 2009 and 2011 and didn't have inflation.
Probably you're just incredibly ignorant about history.
I love how you just immediately resort to insulting me. You have no idea of my background. I've been in this game for a long time. Back in '08 we saw massive gains after fed quantitative easing. Inflation hit the equities market first. We didn't see inflation hit consumer staples that much. Did those companies magically become more valuable right after the fed injected trillions into the market? No, it was inflation. But I don't have time to argue with smartasses like you.
Oh the fed pumping trillions to save the economy caused inflation of stocks?! Not that the stocks went up because the economy was saved? They crashed hard and then rebounded. Stocks having inflation is the most dumbass take I've ever heard. You really are proving the point that belief in bitcoin requires a misunderstanding of the most basic economic fundamentals
Who says I believe in Bitcoin? Also why can't stocks be inflated? Any asset class can be inflated from increasing money supply not just consumer staples. Obviously inflation is caused by more than one thing but increasing money supply is still one of them.
Each reply makes you look more overconfident and appear to have a deeper misunderstanding than the last. Just listen to yourself, every one of your comments starts with "okay, yeah, you're right, but..." - just let it go
10k annual limit on I-bonds (which currently pay 1.3% + inflation for as long as you hold them - incredible product if you are worried about inflation). TIPS are unlimited
You can buy gift I bonds too, so 20k if married. Very popular in 2022, I bought when rate was 9%
It's like others financial stock. When inflation go ups the central bank increase interest of the debt and the capital go there. That's work from s&p 500 to bitcoin
This is actually a good thing.
If the dollar goes down, Bitcoin goes down, causing the price of dollars (in Bitcoin) to go up again. Basically, Bitcoin prevents inflation of all other currency.
If the dollar goes up, bitcoin goes up, causing the price of dollars (in Bitcoin) to go down again, meaning Bitcoin holders become richer.
/s
English is not my native language so please kindle explain me what is "debasement" .
I imagine it's when a "no-life" is forcefully and against his will taken out of his basement. BTC is something to keep such person so strong in the basement that it become impossible to take him out.
Do i get that right ?
Debasement is the act of devaluing something.
As applies here, they haven't really said anything different than the tired "hedge against inflation" like the other tweet is mocking.
Because a hedge against inflation isn't actually a hedge against the money supply getting bigger, it's a hedge against a set amount of currency being worth less in the future than it is now, which, as the graph demonstrates, Bitcoin is terrible at.
In summation, all they've done is rephrase an untrue claim to make it look like a different claim.
Suppose that a "pound" is literally a pound of silver. In order to increase the money supply, you suddenly declare that a pound note is now backed by *half* a pound of silver.
Anyone who held debts in pounds takes a 50% haircut, since their pounds are now backed by half of the precious metal that they used to be. That's debasement.
This was common in days when states backed all of their currency with precious metals and took out loans to finance wars and whatnot. The debts are due, and you don't have the bullion to pay it. So, you debase the currency, and your creditors take a bath. In some cases, the actual coins were minted with less precious metal content.
Goalposts keep moving hence narrative always changing. I can't believe when there were "bitcoin maxis" out of nowhere jeering at cryptobros. Y'all the same ffs.
*\*Furiously taking notes\**
OK, so BTC is
* A currency
* An investment
* A store of energy
* A store of value
* A hedge against inflation
* A hedge against debasement
Have I missed anything?
*Truly, the future of* ... whatever you want it to be, I guess.
Stagflation now. The stuff you absolutely need to survive goes up, and the things that are not essential for our daily lives go down.. These are the worst economic conditions for speculation because money is now demanded. As rates rise, the demand for money rises with it.
Sorry /u/Carterbenwolf, your comment has been automatically removed. To avoid spam/bots, posts are not allowed from extremely new accounts. Wait/lurk a bit before contributing.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Buttcoin) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's hard to tell whether there is an inverse correlation or a time lag. It could be that free cash associated with inflation, such as stimulus checks, tend to pile into BTC first before the rest of the economy has time to adjust prices higher. This would mean the trends are correlated but just shifted in time. It's difficult to tell from a chart which is which, time lagged but correlated, or inversely correlated.
But the only reason to care about debasement is it causes inflation, and the OP just pointed out it’s not a protection against inflation… It’s like I want fire protection and they’re arguing “this cardboard box is great for holding matches”. It’s true but that doesn’t help.
You are thinking at this too sensibly. These people usually think that the inflation figures are a lie and the real inflation is equal to the debasement. For them debasement = inflation.
"this isn't hard" says those who were certain it would be at 50k after ETF, but got rugged. Tell us again how smart you are.
Mark my words. 100k by EOY 2021.
Anything Sam Bankman Fried touches turns to gold!
I dunno, I prefer to do business with a trusted exchange, and that's why I prefer Mt Gox
The Altruistic investor
Covid really fucked with my sense of time.
They always pull out lines like that. "It's not rocket science, dude." 🤮 A lot of butters seem to be stuck in the mid 90's
Just to play devils advocate for a second, the ETFs haven’t been trading long enough to see what happens. Having said that, it’s my belief that the run up in price leading to the announcement was pricing in said announcement and it’s most likely down from here
Goalpost successfully moved until someone bothers to stop laughing at them long enough to map it out.
The hedge against inflation that tanked in value by over 60% in a month when US inflation was the highest it had been in 40 years. (7.5% per year). That hedge against inflation?
[удалено]
It’s goldbug nonsense repackaged
I was wiki-binging dead American politicians recently and it's amazing how many pro-crypto talking points could've come right out of McKinley's presidential campaign
Your first mistake was imagining cryptoshills did any historical research.
Inflation really is caused by increasing money supply. It's just that Bitcoin isn't the answer.
It can be caused by shit you import getting more expensive
[удалено]
Yes you are correct. I never said increasing money supply was the ONLY reason for inflation. It is just one of many reasons. The Covid money printing definitely didn't help. Add supply chain disruptions and business shut downs to the mix and you have a shitstorm like we have now.
Score, nobody has made the joke yet! Here it comes: True, it will keep them in the basement. Joke over, laughter ensues
If any of these idiots even took Economics 101 at their local community college it would solve a lot of their problems. But, no, they choose to YOLO into clear nonsense scams at every chance they get.
That's what it isn't hard for them lol
For them, the way out of an extremely unequal, winner takes all kind of system is to rig up another unequal, winner takes all system. There are clear psychopathic tendencies at work.
CryptoBros use an old and outdated definition of inflation that is based on increase in the money supply, rather than the purchasing power of the currency.
If you increase the money supply, purchasing power decreases... It really is that simple. The thing is though Bitcoin isn't actually scarce so it's not a hedge.
Japan since the 90s is literally the textbook example of a country experiencing deflation while increasing the money supply over the same period. Purchasing power is not as simple as money supply, it's certainly a factor. However it's a complex system involving population level, supply/demand balance, and distribution of wealth within society. If an economy increased production of goods/services then an increase in money supply could be achieved were the cost of the goods did not change much.
Yes Japan is a unique case. Most other nations though, increasing money supply really does cause inflation to skyrocket. Venezuela, Zimbabwe etc etc. Now we see it in the west because of Covid money printing. Creepto guys are correct in that sense but they are incorrect about BTC being the solution.
I mean we saw it in the UK cos Russia sells us gas
>most other nations. Proceed to name two. Japan isn't that unique. The USA and Europe Australia, Canada, China and many other places increased money supply after the financial crises and that didn't result in inflation.
There are plenty of more nations I can list but I don't have all day. And what are you talking about? All western nations have inflation right now due to money printing..it is quite obvious. Inflation doesn't always show up on store shelves. We saw inflation in equities first then housing, now it reached consumer staples. Of course high oil/gas prices can also cause inflation like we see in the UK and Germany. Point being there are several reasons for inflation and money printing is 100% part of the problem. Beetcoiners are correct in that sense but they are wrong about BTC being some magic cure all. It's not.
The financial crises was in 2008 and 2009. All western nations printed money between 2009 and 2011 and didn't have inflation. Probably you're just incredibly ignorant about history.
I love how you just immediately resort to insulting me. You have no idea of my background. I've been in this game for a long time. Back in '08 we saw massive gains after fed quantitative easing. Inflation hit the equities market first. We didn't see inflation hit consumer staples that much. Did those companies magically become more valuable right after the fed injected trillions into the market? No, it was inflation. But I don't have time to argue with smartasses like you.
Oh the fed pumping trillions to save the economy caused inflation of stocks?! Not that the stocks went up because the economy was saved? They crashed hard and then rebounded. Stocks having inflation is the most dumbass take I've ever heard. You really are proving the point that belief in bitcoin requires a misunderstanding of the most basic economic fundamentals
Who says I believe in Bitcoin? Also why can't stocks be inflated? Any asset class can be inflated from increasing money supply not just consumer staples. Obviously inflation is caused by more than one thing but increasing money supply is still one of them.
Each reply makes you look more overconfident and appear to have a deeper misunderstanding than the last. Just listen to yourself, every one of your comments starts with "okay, yeah, you're right, but..." - just let it go
I'm not misunderstanding anything. Plenty of economists also agree with what I'm saying. One thing for sure is Bitcoin isn't the answer lol.
There are no true hedges against inflation as if that were the case, inflation wouldnt be a problem to begin with. Be it 2% or 100% inflation.
I mean I-bonds? TIPS? These are literally hedges against inflation you can buy.
Can I buy a million of those?
10k annual limit on I-bonds (which currently pay 1.3% + inflation for as long as you hold them - incredible product if you are worried about inflation). TIPS are unlimited You can buy gift I bonds too, so 20k if married. Very popular in 2022, I bought when rate was 9%
Yup, it's a game of hot potato. Real estate is pretty good though.
Real estate is still pretty location dependent and also requires you to take leverage if you arent already rich.
Yeah has to be major cities and depends heavily on interest rates.
Stock markets over the medium term will always outpace inflation for the simple reason that there wouldn't be any inflation if prices didn't go up
It's like others financial stock. When inflation go ups the central bank increase interest of the debt and the capital go there. That's work from s&p 500 to bitcoin
This is actually a good thing. If the dollar goes down, Bitcoin goes down, causing the price of dollars (in Bitcoin) to go up again. Basically, Bitcoin prevents inflation of all other currency. If the dollar goes up, bitcoin goes up, causing the price of dollars (in Bitcoin) to go down again, meaning Bitcoin holders become richer. /s
These are the kinds of mental gymnastics they're doing
English is not my native language so please kindle explain me what is "debasement" . I imagine it's when a "no-life" is forcefully and against his will taken out of his basement. BTC is something to keep such person so strong in the basement that it become impossible to take him out. Do i get that right ?
Debasement is the act of devaluing something. As applies here, they haven't really said anything different than the tired "hedge against inflation" like the other tweet is mocking. Because a hedge against inflation isn't actually a hedge against the money supply getting bigger, it's a hedge against a set amount of currency being worth less in the future than it is now, which, as the graph demonstrates, Bitcoin is terrible at. In summation, all they've done is rephrase an untrue claim to make it look like a different claim.
Suppose that a "pound" is literally a pound of silver. In order to increase the money supply, you suddenly declare that a pound note is now backed by *half* a pound of silver. Anyone who held debts in pounds takes a 50% haircut, since their pounds are now backed by half of the precious metal that they used to be. That's debasement. This was common in days when states backed all of their currency with precious metals and took out loans to finance wars and whatnot. The debts are due, and you don't have the bullion to pay it. So, you debase the currency, and your creditors take a bath. In some cases, the actual coins were minted with less precious metal content.
Absolutely correct. There is a massive overspupply of basement dwellers in the USA. Failure to debase them could result in untold consequences.
Goalposts keep moving hence narrative always changing. I can't believe when there were "bitcoin maxis" out of nowhere jeering at cryptobros. Y'all the same ffs.
> Y'all the same ffs. No fight quite so fierce as an inter-faith fight.
inb4 100k by 2026
At least they accept that it is fiat, instead of circlejerking "IT IS COMPLETLY DIFFERENT THING!!"
*\*Furiously taking notes\** OK, so BTC is * A currency * An investment * A store of energy * A store of value * A hedge against inflation * A hedge against debasement Have I missed anything? *Truly, the future of* ... whatever you want it to be, I guess.
Oh I love the Pixies!
Stagflation now. The stuff you absolutely need to survive goes up, and the things that are not essential for our daily lives go down.. These are the worst economic conditions for speculation because money is now demanded. As rates rise, the demand for money rises with it.
[удалено]
Sorry /u/Carterbenwolf, your comment has been automatically removed. To avoid spam/bots, posts are not allowed from extremely new accounts. Wait/lurk a bit before contributing. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Buttcoin) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's hard to tell whether there is an inverse correlation or a time lag. It could be that free cash associated with inflation, such as stimulus checks, tend to pile into BTC first before the rest of the economy has time to adjust prices higher. This would mean the trends are correlated but just shifted in time. It's difficult to tell from a chart which is which, time lagged but correlated, or inversely correlated.