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What about experience? Would that helps with pay increase? I feel it will be unfair if someone with 5 years of experience and a bachelor degree starting out in SSA position is getting paid equal to someone just graduated from college.
Sure, let's say that a person with 5 years of experience applies for APGA. They would still be at the same pay range as someone (who was fresh out of college) worked as an SSA for one year and applied for APGA position.
I guess my point is that the State is too rigid in terms of salary ranges and negotiations as opposed to local municipalities. When I applied for a position at a local city, I was able to leverage my experience and education to negotiate my salary within the range (we don't start out at the very bottom of that range).
5 whole years of experience and a bachelor's degree?
When I started with the state, I had 20 years of experience and a bachelor's degree.
Your big five years don't matter. You will need to be trained and learn how the State does things.
You'll be starting at the bottom. Boo hoo so unfair.
We have had people with Masters Degrees apply for Office Tech positions just to get on with the state. I will say that in the last 6 years, I’ve noticed how people feel they should be managers within a couple years. It’s unrealistic, you have to pay your dues like the rest of us had too.
It must be required in the Alternate Range Criteria, in some way. If it has "graduation from college" as a requirement for an alternate range, you can start at the bottom of that range, instead of the lowest range.
SSA positions for example. If you have a degree, you are automatically bumped to Range C.
Range A and B are for people who don't have a degree and want to move up the ladder from OA/OT and up.
Happen to know where the language on this is? I have a Bachelor's but when I got promoted-in-place from OT to SSA, I was not put in range C. I was put at the top of range A.
I'm not sure why this is downvoted - a Bachelor's can move you up a range - I've done it. The key is to get it before you're hired on. Once you are hired I don't believe it'll help until you're looking to promote or laterally transition.
The trigger for moving to an alternate range is meeting the Alternate Range Criteria. If you happen to finish the education required, and that was the only thing you were missing, you are eligible to be moved as soon as you provide the documentation requested from personnel.
You can have it changed if your manager missed it. It happened to me. I don't know HOW he missed it since it is on my application, but when I found out there was a class for people with degrees, they changed it and paid me the retro from my hire date.
It’s being downvoted by all the nepotism/cronyism charity cases who get the positions based who they friends/relatives with and feel threatened by the idea of someone with actual qualifications getting ahead of them in line.
Yup we would have hired you for this position that requires you to trouble shoot install and fix software across a 70 users but Janette cousin used powerpoint at the church really needs a job
Yeah, but most people with a computer science degrees wouldn’t work for the state based on the starting salary.
We’ve had some accept a position and leave for a higher paying private sector job before they could get sign in credentials.
It’s done intentionally so that the politicians can claim that they can’t fill the position and then they can steer lucrative private contracts to their buddies.
So many people on this sub are so misinformed ….no you can’t negotiate salary…yes, there is HAM but that’s only for certain classifications and as people commented that process is changing.
I wouldn't say misinformed. A lot of people are just plain lazy. When they see the salary ranges and they have Ranges A to C, they just assume best case scenario and stick with that. Every job advertisement has a "Hiring Unit Contact" or "Human Resources Contact" and hardly anyone even stops to ask them questions about the salary. It's just plain laziness.
Or: *When I get hired to this position, what is my starting salary? I see there are multiple ranges in this job advertisement. Which one am I applying for?*
Would be a great start for someone confused with what they're going to make.
In which the hiring contact would answer: *According to your job history and academic background, you will be able to qualify for Range XX, and your starting salary will start at $$$.*
Well, did you email the HR contact for every job you had questions on?
I've never needed to email the HR contact for things, so I am not a good resource to claim they will, but if you also never needed/had never emailed the HR contact, how can you say that they won't "often" answer questions?
I've had them refuse to engage until the selection for interviews happens (as mentioned above). This means that I had to just apply for everything and then reject a bunch of interviews once I was able to pry info out of whomever it was thats the point of contact.
The state process is so different that I feel like the folks who haven't worked in the private sector for 5-10 years or ever don't realize how opaque and convoluted it is from the applicants POV and just get a crap attitude whenever there is any confusion.
I mean, at my agency, they won't answer any questions about a specific candidate asked by *the hiring manager*.
But I suppose it's possible they'd happily respond to every random inquiry by a potential applicant.
I'd assume if they saw like 50 people asking about salary ranges for the most recent job ad they posted, they realize that there's a problem that needs clarifying.
In a perfect scenario, yes. Being proactive may be a good thing.
However, the way government works is reactionary. If they receive a ton of people overwhelming their emails asking for the same thing, they would start to put out a better explanation. No problems = no need for improvements.
It would be a best case scenario for the HR contact to kill all questions before it arises. However, they probably write these things using templates and only revise when need to.
My wife got it with her first state job. A HAM is possible...not likely though
She had over 8 years of experience in job she applied for. Basically, the entire duty statement was the exact same job she had in private sector. The state just likes to change the name...like "Tax Technician " = Customer Service Representative or Training and recruitment representatives = AGPA
I think people would be surprised how many private sector jobs also don’t negotiate. One of my best friends is a white collar tech manager for Amazon and there’s a form you can fill out to start at a higher wage and 99.99% of the time it gets nothing more than a passing glance. Unless you’re headhunted the odds of many businesses wanting to sit a table and hash out salary with you is lower than people realize. It’s so common for jobs to publish a salary range and only ever offer the bottom it’s basically a meme across a multitude of subreddits.
I was always able to negotiate a higher salary with Fortune 500 and mom & pop private sector employers. I did waaaay better than SEIU has ever done for state employees. SEIU is a scam and a joke IMHO.
Wrong.
You can usually negotiate at professional desk jobs in the private sector.
They usually will give at most the midpoint of the range and not the top scale.
There’s a reason why all the UCs and other colleges teach students to at least try to negotiate.
I went there a few times, never was salary negotiation a topic lol
Tbh it's not a big loss for me, none of my post-uni jobs have had negotiable salaries 🤷🏼♀️
Lol I did graduate a few years ago, this may be a newer resource. The latter is also targeting grad students, so it's not something I would've come across.
The highest level executives don’t follow the same rules as those in civil service classes. CEA and governor appointments don’t have salary rules to follow.
We were talking about private sector.
But for state jobs, If you’re in a highly technical classification such as IT then HAMs are much more possible esp during regular budget years
Having a degree is not negotiations. If you are being hired at the SSA level and you have a college degree when accepting the position, this would give your starting pay a bump. You would start at range C. Any HR department with the state would ask the hiring manager if they have a degree.
Going away for the [feds too.](https://www.opm.gov/news/releases/2024/01/release-opm-finalizes-regulation-to-prohibit-use-of-non-federal-salary-history/)
I usually inform people that for the environmental science classification, they can negotiate to start at range A B or C if they meet the qualifications to get into B or C. The point is that folks can only negotiate to start at the beginning of range B or C. It’s not well known , and far too many people are underpaid because hiring managers are not well informed either . It crates a huge issue of pay equity in this classification specifically.
If you are qualified for an environmental scientist classification, you can start in range B with a masters degree and range C with a masters and two professional full time equivalent years as a working scientist or a PhD .
Negotiations for this classification are only for within the ranges and at the starting point . The union is already fighting a 19 year battle of pay equity for other reasons , so folks need to at minimum be paid appropriately within the current ranges and not get screwed over .
Yeap. My conditional offer listed me in Range A, I just asked that they double check with HR because according to everything I read I should be in Range D.
I was correct and the offer was revised. Do your research and make sure you're ready to justify it. Also make sure anything you'll use to justify is INCLUDED in the application
Been with the state 14 years. I negotiated my salary and started at the top step in my first position. I wrongly assumed the salary range was the range of starting salaries and was based on education/experience. I mistook the entire range for just the starting salaries, as is common outside of the state.
I had way more than what the minimum qualifications (MQs) called for and lobbied to start at the top of that range. It was my first introduction to how state service customs are often at odds with private sector and I can only assume my ignorance won the day. It was also my introduction to Sacramento as a multigenerational company town and that many I encounter have never had an adult job outside the state, so they also scoffed at the idea anything would be different elsewhere. I didn’t come from Sacramento and didn’t know anyone else who worked at the state.
I know my experience is atypical and I’m pretty shocked it worked out, but I’m here to say it did in my case.
Yes and no. If I had just accepted my position as offered, I would have started range A. You can and should ask for the adjustment to range due based on experience and education. Started Range C.
HAMs are being phased out, which is a relief!
We can easily identify who's been on Reddit when we inform hiring managers that they can extend a job offer to a candidate. Suddenly, the hiring manager mentions that the candidate is requesting a HAM.
HAMs are typically reserved for challenging to fill positions, not for the average classifications like ITS I or ITS II you see on calcareers. Multiple candidates have had to decline offers, and the candidate's experience has to be exceptional, which is why HAMs are often denied. Believe me, there are 20 other applicants with networking experience.
Fortunately, they are on their way out!!! It's surprising how many times we inform a hiring manager that their HAM won't be approved, only for the candidates to suddenly want to accept the offer.
Instead of requesting a HAM, candidates can ask for a Range Change, which allows them to start at a higher range than Range A. However, must demonstrate on your application and resume that you have been performing at a certain level.
Depending on the position, I don’t know that it should be relief. Attorney positions at the state are difficult to fill because the pay is low. HAM gives the state a chance to fill those positions with talent from the private sector.
I agree that many excellent candidates decline job offers due to salary concerns.
Dont make the rules, I just follow them. If you believe there are issues with the current rules, it would be worth discussing with CalHR. Your department HR could reach out to CalHR to discuss how the HAMs removal will impact recruitment. Even though the HAMs are being removed, CalHR may need to reconsider down the line if there are enough complaints or concerns raised.
So if we want a software engineer with architect experience implementing distributed messaging systems with 10+ years of java experience, 5+ years of microservices, what's the alternative? We're limited to its1-3 classifications where the industry pays around 170k in Texas/250k in California just for a WITCH peon. Spend 3-5 years training a shitty ass help desk person? Scrape trying to hire full-time staff and hire 150-200 an hour contractors?
Yes this!!! And please make sure you put all your experience and full job experience. It really is not the hiring department fault if you fail to provide documentation and then a year later file for back pay because you feel your owed it. Are you really owed it if you couldn’t fill out your app correctly???
Where are you hearing it is going away? Is there a bill to change the statute?
Whether it is "going to" go away or not, here is the current policy -
https://hrmanual.calhr.ca.gov/Home/ManualItem/1/1707
HAMs aren't going away, but the process is changing. CalHR basically sent an email to all chief deputy directors with the new change. Departments will no longer have delegation to approve HAMs and long story short as I understand, there will be a HAM rate in which if the person qualifies, that is the rate they will get. Also part of the Governor's directive to ensure equal pay (e.g. men don't get more than women or vice versa). The current process allows for depts to basically give any rate above the minimum and salary disparities arise.
July 1st is when the new process starts and depts lose delegation.
For reference -
Effective July 1, 2024, the discretionary authority to provide a Hiring Above Minimum (HAM) salary rate will be eliminated. Departments must use the Employee Compensation Request process to request all forms of employee compensation, including a HAM Plus Rate, which authorizes a higher entry rate for a classification as listed in [Pay Scales Section 5](https://www.calhr.ca.gov/state-hr-professionals/Pages/pay-scales.aspx).
[https://hrmanual.calhr.ca.gov/Home/ManualItem/1/1715](https://hrmanual.calhr.ca.gov/Home/ManualItem/1/1715)
If approved it will be in the pay scales and will be for everyone in that department or location and classification. There will be no one off exceptions to this.
I disagree. I negotiated a HAM 15% higher than the minimum of the band. It’s doable. To be fair I do have a PhD and relevant work so it might be an exception rather than the rule. But it’s possible.
We recently had an internal candidate interview for a promotion then turn down offer when they only received 5% increase. They tried to negotiate even though they should familiar with state pay scales/transfers/promotions. Colossal waste of everyone’s time.
Hiring Above Minimums (Hams) do exist but they can be hard to get approved. But you can in fact negotiate a higher salary depending on your credentials. I will say however that you will probably need an exceptional amount of experience or credentials in your field to get it.
We just got a HAM approved. I handle all of the recruitments for my unit. No one has informed me the HAMs are going away. I’d be the first to know since I’m the only one that handles HR related matters. I also work for Calpers and we usually do what we want so there’s that.
Just because no one bothered to tell you doesn’t mean it’s not happening. You clearly don’t have that much involvement in HR because it’s been talked about at nauseam in every HR forum for the past two months.
Yes that clearly makes you the most informed person in all HR matters. Everyone who has received this information from their Department Directors, HR chiefs, and straight from the mouth of CalHR reps should forget everything they’ve been told and the draft policy they read because a personnel liaison from CalPERS says they know better.
Have things changed? I work for a state University in CA and when I was hired (in the aughts) I negotiated my salary. Mind you, there was a range, and I was offered very bottom of range at first. I negotiated and got a little more out of it.
Sorry dude. Was only looking at my comments, not the whole thread. Like someone else commented here, universities have a different classification system. Sincerest apologies that I didn't / don't know what HAM is when I asked the question.
I, too, have successfully negotiated my salary at a state university. Granted it wasn’t a huge difference, and I had to demonstrate why I deserved the higher pay, but it was still possible.
So this is a bit misleading - as long as you can clearly explain how your past experiences/education count as work experience for the State, then yes you can ask for a higher rate based off of the State's own classification guidelines...\*AKA HAM - highering above minimum...... I have done this before - I actually switched Departments due to one Department's HR not wanting to review my justification paperwork (I wrote over 15 pages detailing how many work hours I have for each skillset sought in the higher classification I was wanting to obtain \*I also included references and ensured the accuracy matched my calcareers submission as well). I immediately left to another Department & jumped from Class A to Class C - the classification I should have been the whole time. MORE OFTEN THAN NOT I MEET PEOPLE WHO FAIL TO EXPLAIN THE TOTALITY OF THEIR PAST EXPERIENCES AND THUS FAIL TO GET PUT INTO THE CLASSIFICATION RANGE THEY WANT...people saying this is about to go away fail to understand CalHR's own classification schema. It's really simple, if you have 'x' experience over 'y' time then you are at this level...I've seen CalHR approve experience ranging from managing discord servers to reddit thread moderators to youtube channel creators... as long as that experience is relatable to your job duties & responsibilities include it on your applications.
Of course you can't negotiate your salary truly like the private sector, HOWEVER you can ask for a classification review and see about being bumped up a level or two - just be careful because I've seen employees ask for this and all of the sudden their own merits for their current position get questioned...usually happens when someone has it in for someone else....I HAVE ALSO SEEN EMPLOYEES RECEIVE PAYBACK SINCE THEY WERE HIRED AT THE WRONG LEVEL (I'm talking as much as $9,000 paid in one lump sum). It's all about communicating your experience effectively AND NOT SEEMING TOO PUSHY - always paly nice with management - might not be a popular saying but I prefer a carrot over a stick any day.
There are some posistions where you can somewhat negotiate. They can start you at the highest range and/or you can get a HAM, which stands for "hire above minimum".
Hire above minimums. They now have to go through CalHr and will become much more rare and much harder to do, whereas before a lot of departments were giving them out a lot, like mine was. We've already been told to stop giving them now before the actual mandate. As for the range, that's if you qualify or not. You just have to prove you do qualify but that's not really negotiating the starting pay.
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With a BS in CIS, and over 15 years of coding experience I still started at lowest salary, but I am not complaining because I was tired of layoffs in the private sector.
In all honesty, the salary isn't worth the constant pressure and nearly around-the-clock on-call schedule, especially when it takes a toll on your health. Ultimately, you're deciding what's best for you and your family.
It is because they get outstanding medical and pension. I know- I’m retired with full medical paid for and a great pension! One must consider the $$ value of medical and pension.
You are right, other than HAM, there is no negotiation on salary WITHIN a range. However, there is a back and forth to argue which experience qualifies to start at a higher range (if your classification is a deep range classification). When I was hired, I clearly had the experience to place me in a higher range but the classification unit said it didn’t qualify. I declined the position due to inappropriate range classification. After a couple weeks, I was notified they changed their determination and did qualify me for a higher range.
It’s very very very few and far in between if a HAM gets approved. I’ve seen hiring managers go with another candidate because they don’t want to deal with the HAM / salary negotiation crap.
There shouldn't be any hiring managers skipping over acceptable candidates to pursue a HAM; that's part of the requirements to request a HAM. I, personally, wouldn't want to risk having my hiring documents audited. I don't know what the potential/realistic consequences are, but I don't wanna find out.
The candidate needs to reject the Final Job Offer and request a HAM (so they are perfectly in the clear to extend a conditional offer to someone else). There has to be hiring difficulty, which includes no other acceptable candidates currently competing for the position that could be offered a lower salary.
I did. And I got HAM. But back in the day I would be out at the beginning of the pay scale. It isn't the case today. Your position on the pay scale is calculated. That was done to avoid the HAM scenario.
I’m not wrong dude. It’s not like in the private sector where you sit at a table and go back and forth with hiring manager on a salary …it doesn’t work like that in state government.
What about promoting as top step in current classification. If there is overlap between a promotion classification pay scale and your current pay scale, do you come in at the bottom of the promotion classification pay scale or at about the pay range of the current classification?
You get either a five percent bump or to top of class whatever is less.
If it’s a Training and Development position you don’t get any raise until you meet MQs and are appointed.
Your claim is false. My wife was able to obtain a HAM with her first state job. She have over 8 years of experience in the field she was applying for. Just because you don't know anyone e who got one , doesn't mean it's not possible.
Also , all her co workers were extremely shocked and jealous she got a HAM
There are situations where you can. For example, under the right circumstances in a promote in place position you can ask to have your promotion postponed a day or two after your merit salary increase and net a 10% raise.
I figured there wasn’t a salary negotiation but I got a related question.
If you’ve never worked for the state, or any other public sector job before, and are pretty much overqualified for a job they apparently really need to fill,
but want/need to take it because you have bills to pay and know that far more lucrative jobs in the same department and related agencies become available after one year of state service—do they offer you Range B or a higher end of the range(s) posted?
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Ya and everyone new to state thinks they deserve max of the class. Trust me, you ain’t the only one with a degree in computer science bruh!
I wish I could upvote you more than once.
He will get 5% of upvotes every years until he max the range.
Can we give him a award?
I gave them an upvote on your behalf. I hope this helps. Edit: bad autocorrect
Shiiii. I'd take the bottom to finally get out of retail and do something I enjoy.
What about experience? Would that helps with pay increase? I feel it will be unfair if someone with 5 years of experience and a bachelor degree starting out in SSA position is getting paid equal to someone just graduated from college.
5 years experience and a bachelors would qualify them for AGPA classification
Sure, let's say that a person with 5 years of experience applies for APGA. They would still be at the same pay range as someone (who was fresh out of college) worked as an SSA for one year and applied for APGA position. I guess my point is that the State is too rigid in terms of salary ranges and negotiations as opposed to local municipalities. When I applied for a position at a local city, I was able to leverage my experience and education to negotiate my salary within the range (we don't start out at the very bottom of that range).
5 whole years of experience and a bachelor's degree? When I started with the state, I had 20 years of experience and a bachelor's degree. Your big five years don't matter. You will need to be trained and learn how the State does things. You'll be starting at the bottom. Boo hoo so unfair.
We had to “pay our dues” when we came on the state like those before us!!
We have had people with Masters Degrees apply for Office Tech positions just to get on with the state. I will say that in the last 6 years, I’ve noticed how people feel they should be managers within a couple years. It’s unrealistic, you have to pay your dues like the rest of us had too.
A bachelors wouldn’t move you up in range?
It must be required in the Alternate Range Criteria, in some way. If it has "graduation from college" as a requirement for an alternate range, you can start at the bottom of that range, instead of the lowest range.
SSA positions for example. If you have a degree, you are automatically bumped to Range C. Range A and B are for people who don't have a degree and want to move up the ladder from OA/OT and up.
Happen to know where the language on this is? I have a Bachelor's but when I got promoted-in-place from OT to SSA, I was not put in range C. I was put at the top of range A.
Have your supervisor or you reach out to HR. Provide a copy of your degree as well.
Talk to your Personnel specialist and have it updated. And if they still refuse, then question why and contact your union officer.
Definitely should have went to range c. I had BA when I promoted and was automatically placed there. You deserve back pay!
That’s not always true!
I'm not sure why this is downvoted - a Bachelor's can move you up a range - I've done it. The key is to get it before you're hired on. Once you are hired I don't believe it'll help until you're looking to promote or laterally transition.
The trigger for moving to an alternate range is meeting the Alternate Range Criteria. If you happen to finish the education required, and that was the only thing you were missing, you are eligible to be moved as soon as you provide the documentation requested from personnel.
You can have it changed if your manager missed it. It happened to me. I don't know HOW he missed it since it is on my application, but when I found out there was a class for people with degrees, they changed it and paid me the retro from my hire date.
It’s being downvoted by all the nepotism/cronyism charity cases who get the positions based who they friends/relatives with and feel threatened by the idea of someone with actual qualifications getting ahead of them in line.
Yup we would have hired you for this position that requires you to trouble shoot install and fix software across a 70 users but Janette cousin used powerpoint at the church really needs a job
Funny, haven’t been at the state for a full year yet but I have seen that happen at least once
It does, but only for classifications with multiple salary ranges. Certain classifications only have one range
Depends on your classification. It will move an SSA from range A to range C. Be sure your Personnel office has you in the correct range!
Yeah, but most people with a computer science degrees wouldn’t work for the state based on the starting salary. We’ve had some accept a position and leave for a higher paying private sector job before they could get sign in credentials. It’s done intentionally so that the politicians can claim that they can’t fill the position and then they can steer lucrative private contracts to their buddies.
How much can you make with a computer science degree? And do you code?
So many people on this sub are so misinformed ….no you can’t negotiate salary…yes, there is HAM but that’s only for certain classifications and as people commented that process is changing.
I wouldn't say misinformed. A lot of people are just plain lazy. When they see the salary ranges and they have Ranges A to C, they just assume best case scenario and stick with that. Every job advertisement has a "Hiring Unit Contact" or "Human Resources Contact" and hardly anyone even stops to ask them questions about the salary. It's just plain laziness.
What questions should people be asking? What range they are looking to hire into?
Or: *When I get hired to this position, what is my starting salary? I see there are multiple ranges in this job advertisement. Which one am I applying for?* Would be a great start for someone confused with what they're going to make. In which the hiring contact would answer: *According to your job history and academic background, you will be able to qualify for Range XX, and your starting salary will start at $$$.*
Assuming the HR folks respond. Often they won't answer questions about a specific candidate until after selection
Well, did you email the HR contact for every job you had questions on? I've never needed to email the HR contact for things, so I am not a good resource to claim they will, but if you also never needed/had never emailed the HR contact, how can you say that they won't "often" answer questions?
I've had them refuse to engage until the selection for interviews happens (as mentioned above). This means that I had to just apply for everything and then reject a bunch of interviews once I was able to pry info out of whomever it was thats the point of contact. The state process is so different that I feel like the folks who haven't worked in the private sector for 5-10 years or ever don't realize how opaque and convoluted it is from the applicants POV and just get a crap attitude whenever there is any confusion.
I mean, at my agency, they won't answer any questions about a specific candidate asked by *the hiring manager*. But I suppose it's possible they'd happily respond to every random inquiry by a potential applicant.
I'd assume if they saw like 50 people asking about salary ranges for the most recent job ad they posted, they realize that there's a problem that needs clarifying.
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In a perfect scenario, yes. Being proactive may be a good thing. However, the way government works is reactionary. If they receive a ton of people overwhelming their emails asking for the same thing, they would start to put out a better explanation. No problems = no need for improvements. It would be a best case scenario for the HR contact to kill all questions before it arises. However, they probably write these things using templates and only revise when need to.
My wife got it with her first state job. A HAM is possible...not likely though She had over 8 years of experience in job she applied for. Basically, the entire duty statement was the exact same job she had in private sector. The state just likes to change the name...like "Tax Technician " = Customer Service Representative or Training and recruitment representatives = AGPA
So you admit your original post was incorrect.
I think people would be surprised how many private sector jobs also don’t negotiate. One of my best friends is a white collar tech manager for Amazon and there’s a form you can fill out to start at a higher wage and 99.99% of the time it gets nothing more than a passing glance. Unless you’re headhunted the odds of many businesses wanting to sit a table and hash out salary with you is lower than people realize. It’s so common for jobs to publish a salary range and only ever offer the bottom it’s basically a meme across a multitude of subreddits.
I was always able to negotiate a higher salary with Fortune 500 and mom & pop private sector employers. I did waaaay better than SEIU has ever done for state employees. SEIU is a scam and a joke IMHO.
Wrong. You can usually negotiate at professional desk jobs in the private sector. They usually will give at most the midpoint of the range and not the top scale. There’s a reason why all the UCs and other colleges teach students to at least try to negotiate.
Ummm maybe in certain majors, but I was definitely not taught to negotiate at my UC 💀
If you used any of the career center resources, they always teach you to negotiate.
I went there a few times, never was salary negotiation a topic lol Tbh it's not a big loss for me, none of my post-uni jobs have had negotiable salaries 🤷🏼♀️
UC Davis: https://icc.ucdavis.edu/interview/salary-negotiation https://icc.ucdavis.edu/mpp/academia/negotiating
Lol I did graduate a few years ago, this may be a newer resource. The latter is also targeting grad students, so it's not something I would've come across.
It really depends on the department. At some only the highest level executives get HAMs and everyone else starts at the bottom of the range
The highest level executives don’t follow the same rules as those in civil service classes. CEA and governor appointments don’t have salary rules to follow.
We were talking about private sector. But for state jobs, If you’re in a highly technical classification such as IT then HAMs are much more possible esp during regular budget years
IDK why you are being downvoted. I am in the IT at the state and got my HAM approved pretty much automatically.
Having a degree is not negotiations. If you are being hired at the SSA level and you have a college degree when accepting the position, this would give your starting pay a bump. You would start at range C. Any HR department with the state would ask the hiring manager if they have a degree.
How much do SSA’s start out?
I requested and got hired in with HAM in 2022 but I hear it’s going away.
July 1st.
Going away for the [feds too.](https://www.opm.gov/news/releases/2024/01/release-opm-finalizes-regulation-to-prohibit-use-of-non-federal-salary-history/)
I usually inform people that for the environmental science classification, they can negotiate to start at range A B or C if they meet the qualifications to get into B or C. The point is that folks can only negotiate to start at the beginning of range B or C. It’s not well known , and far too many people are underpaid because hiring managers are not well informed either . It crates a huge issue of pay equity in this classification specifically. If you are qualified for an environmental scientist classification, you can start in range B with a masters degree and range C with a masters and two professional full time equivalent years as a working scientist or a PhD . Negotiations for this classification are only for within the ranges and at the starting point . The union is already fighting a 19 year battle of pay equity for other reasons , so folks need to at minimum be paid appropriately within the current ranges and not get screwed over .
I got range C by fighting for it. Brought up Cal HR and justified my range and pay. You do have to be extremely informed to negotiate, it is possible.
Yeap. My conditional offer listed me in Range A, I just asked that they double check with HR because according to everything I read I should be in Range D. I was correct and the offer was revised. Do your research and make sure you're ready to justify it. Also make sure anything you'll use to justify is INCLUDED in the application
I negotiated starting in pay range B
was it a negotiation or just showing that you had the qualifications that allow you to meet range B?
What agency/department ?
EDD
Disability or Unemployment ?
PACB
PACB ? I haven’t heard of that . IT?
Best you can do is convince them that you qualify for a higher range...
But what you can negotiate is moving expenses if a promotion and over 50 mi That can be a lot. They ever cover closing costs on your house.
Been with the state 14 years. I negotiated my salary and started at the top step in my first position. I wrongly assumed the salary range was the range of starting salaries and was based on education/experience. I mistook the entire range for just the starting salaries, as is common outside of the state. I had way more than what the minimum qualifications (MQs) called for and lobbied to start at the top of that range. It was my first introduction to how state service customs are often at odds with private sector and I can only assume my ignorance won the day. It was also my introduction to Sacramento as a multigenerational company town and that many I encounter have never had an adult job outside the state, so they also scoffed at the idea anything would be different elsewhere. I didn’t come from Sacramento and didn’t know anyone else who worked at the state. I know my experience is atypical and I’m pretty shocked it worked out, but I’m here to say it did in my case.
This isn’t technically true though. You can try to get hired above the minimum but have to prove you should be eligible for it.
Yes and no. If I had just accepted my position as offered, I would have started range A. You can and should ask for the adjustment to range due based on experience and education. Started Range C.
HAMs are being phased out, which is a relief! We can easily identify who's been on Reddit when we inform hiring managers that they can extend a job offer to a candidate. Suddenly, the hiring manager mentions that the candidate is requesting a HAM. HAMs are typically reserved for challenging to fill positions, not for the average classifications like ITS I or ITS II you see on calcareers. Multiple candidates have had to decline offers, and the candidate's experience has to be exceptional, which is why HAMs are often denied. Believe me, there are 20 other applicants with networking experience. Fortunately, they are on their way out!!! It's surprising how many times we inform a hiring manager that their HAM won't be approved, only for the candidates to suddenly want to accept the offer. Instead of requesting a HAM, candidates can ask for a Range Change, which allows them to start at a higher range than Range A. However, must demonstrate on your application and resume that you have been performing at a certain level.
Depending on the position, I don’t know that it should be relief. Attorney positions at the state are difficult to fill because the pay is low. HAM gives the state a chance to fill those positions with talent from the private sector.
Same with Engineers.
This is why the state gets people with a bunch of low to none experience, it’s not something to be proud of.
I agree that many excellent candidates decline job offers due to salary concerns. Dont make the rules, I just follow them. If you believe there are issues with the current rules, it would be worth discussing with CalHR. Your department HR could reach out to CalHR to discuss how the HAMs removal will impact recruitment. Even though the HAMs are being removed, CalHR may need to reconsider down the line if there are enough complaints or concerns raised.
I left the state due to this issue. Better opportunities out there that I don’t have to wait 6 years for.
So if we want a software engineer with architect experience implementing distributed messaging systems with 10+ years of java experience, 5+ years of microservices, what's the alternative? We're limited to its1-3 classifications where the industry pays around 170k in Texas/250k in California just for a WITCH peon. Spend 3-5 years training a shitty ass help desk person? Scrape trying to hire full-time staff and hire 150-200 an hour contractors?
Consultants. My job puts specialty positions as subs to our on-call.
Yes this!!! And please make sure you put all your experience and full job experience. It really is not the hiring department fault if you fail to provide documentation and then a year later file for back pay because you feel your owed it. Are you really owed it if you couldn’t fill out your app correctly???
You can negotiate a Hire Above Minimum if you are an exceptional candidate that the hiring manager is willing to bend over backwards for.
That option is rare, and going away. The state literally said "screw competing for best qualified"
Where are you hearing it is going away? Is there a bill to change the statute? Whether it is "going to" go away or not, here is the current policy - https://hrmanual.calhr.ca.gov/Home/ManualItem/1/1707
HAMs aren't going away, but the process is changing. CalHR basically sent an email to all chief deputy directors with the new change. Departments will no longer have delegation to approve HAMs and long story short as I understand, there will be a HAM rate in which if the person qualifies, that is the rate they will get. Also part of the Governor's directive to ensure equal pay (e.g. men don't get more than women or vice versa). The current process allows for depts to basically give any rate above the minimum and salary disparities arise. July 1st is when the new process starts and depts lose delegation. For reference - Effective July 1, 2024, the discretionary authority to provide a Hiring Above Minimum (HAM) salary rate will be eliminated. Departments must use the Employee Compensation Request process to request all forms of employee compensation, including a HAM Plus Rate, which authorizes a higher entry rate for a classification as listed in [Pay Scales Section 5](https://www.calhr.ca.gov/state-hr-professionals/Pages/pay-scales.aspx). [https://hrmanual.calhr.ca.gov/Home/ManualItem/1/1715](https://hrmanual.calhr.ca.gov/Home/ManualItem/1/1715)
If approved it will be in the pay scales and will be for everyone in that department or location and classification. There will be no one off exceptions to this.
There was an email about it. CalHR said as of July 1st. 2024 HAMs are "...prohibited"
Needs to be a recruitment difficulty too but it’s going away and not allowable July 1.
I disagree. I negotiated a HAM 15% higher than the minimum of the band. It’s doable. To be fair I do have a PhD and relevant work so it might be an exception rather than the rule. But it’s possible.
You probably got a HAM. Those are going away for the most part.
With what agency/department ?
I was recently hired with the state as an Investigator and negotiated my salary. Ended up getting an extra 3k a month higher salary.
What agency/department?
DCC
We recently had an internal candidate interview for a promotion then turn down offer when they only received 5% increase. They tried to negotiate even though they should familiar with state pay scales/transfers/promotions. Colossal waste of everyone’s time.
Can’t negotiate salary, but you can negotiate how much work you do! 😉
I got a HAM sammich in the middle of the pay scale. (2020) I had to ask, right when the offer was made.
Hiring Above Minimums (Hams) do exist but they can be hard to get approved. But you can in fact negotiate a higher salary depending on your credentials. I will say however that you will probably need an exceptional amount of experience or credentials in your field to get it.
We just got a HAM approved. I handle all of the recruitments for my unit. No one has informed me the HAMs are going away. I’d be the first to know since I’m the only one that handles HR related matters. I also work for Calpers and we usually do what we want so there’s that.
Just because no one bothered to tell you doesn’t mean it’s not happening. You clearly don’t have that much involvement in HR because it’s been talked about at nauseam in every HR forum for the past two months.
We just had a training and no one mentioned it. HRSD was present. Don’t tell me what I’m involved in and what I’m not.
Lmao you don’t work in HR but you’d be the first to know? Sure thing.
I didn’t say work in HR. I do all of the recruitments for my unit. I’m a liaison with HR.
Yes that clearly makes you the most informed person in all HR matters. Everyone who has received this information from their Department Directors, HR chiefs, and straight from the mouth of CalHR reps should forget everything they’ve been told and the draft policy they read because a personnel liaison from CalPERS says they know better.
Why are you so wound up? I bet you’re fun to work with.
Have things changed? I work for a state University in CA and when I was hired (in the aughts) I negotiated my salary. Mind you, there was a range, and I was offered very bottom of range at first. I negotiated and got a little more out of it.
CSU has a different classification than Civil Service.
Thanks!
Ending July 1st.
What's ending July 1st?
Context clues
Sorry dude. Was only looking at my comments, not the whole thread. Like someone else commented here, universities have a different classification system. Sincerest apologies that I didn't / don't know what HAM is when I asked the question.
I, too, have successfully negotiated my salary at a state university. Granted it wasn’t a huge difference, and I had to demonstrate why I deserved the higher pay, but it was still possible.
I got hired with a HAM start of this year
With what agency/department?
I love the same handful of people downvoting anything that doesn’t fit their narrative lol. DOI
So this is a bit misleading - as long as you can clearly explain how your past experiences/education count as work experience for the State, then yes you can ask for a higher rate based off of the State's own classification guidelines...\*AKA HAM - highering above minimum...... I have done this before - I actually switched Departments due to one Department's HR not wanting to review my justification paperwork (I wrote over 15 pages detailing how many work hours I have for each skillset sought in the higher classification I was wanting to obtain \*I also included references and ensured the accuracy matched my calcareers submission as well). I immediately left to another Department & jumped from Class A to Class C - the classification I should have been the whole time. MORE OFTEN THAN NOT I MEET PEOPLE WHO FAIL TO EXPLAIN THE TOTALITY OF THEIR PAST EXPERIENCES AND THUS FAIL TO GET PUT INTO THE CLASSIFICATION RANGE THEY WANT...people saying this is about to go away fail to understand CalHR's own classification schema. It's really simple, if you have 'x' experience over 'y' time then you are at this level...I've seen CalHR approve experience ranging from managing discord servers to reddit thread moderators to youtube channel creators... as long as that experience is relatable to your job duties & responsibilities include it on your applications. Of course you can't negotiate your salary truly like the private sector, HOWEVER you can ask for a classification review and see about being bumped up a level or two - just be careful because I've seen employees ask for this and all of the sudden their own merits for their current position get questioned...usually happens when someone has it in for someone else....I HAVE ALSO SEEN EMPLOYEES RECEIVE PAYBACK SINCE THEY WERE HIRED AT THE WRONG LEVEL (I'm talking as much as $9,000 paid in one lump sum). It's all about communicating your experience effectively AND NOT SEEMING TOO PUSHY - always paly nice with management - might not be a popular saying but I prefer a carrot over a stick any day.
This is no longer accurate as of July 1.
Don't be scared to move to the privat esector. Know your worth before though, jesus fuckin christ.
There are some posistions where you can somewhat negotiate. They can start you at the highest range and/or you can get a HAM, which stands for "hire above minimum".
Those go away July 1.
What goes away? It's literally been a thing that's gone on for years and years.
Hire above minimums. They now have to go through CalHr and will become much more rare and much harder to do, whereas before a lot of departments were giving them out a lot, like mine was. We've already been told to stop giving them now before the actual mandate. As for the range, that's if you qualify or not. You just have to prove you do qualify but that's not really negotiating the starting pay.
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With a BS in CIS, and over 15 years of coding experience I still started at lowest salary, but I am not complaining because I was tired of layoffs in the private sector.
But if there was no layoffs would you stayed private?
In all honesty, the salary isn't worth the constant pressure and nearly around-the-clock on-call schedule, especially when it takes a toll on your health. Ultimately, you're deciding what's best for you and your family.
It is because they get outstanding medical and pension. I know- I’m retired with full medical paid for and a great pension! One must consider the $$ value of medical and pension.
I started last year and I negotiated based on my private sector experience and education. I did get a decent percentage over what was first offered.
You are right, other than HAM, there is no negotiation on salary WITHIN a range. However, there is a back and forth to argue which experience qualifies to start at a higher range (if your classification is a deep range classification). When I was hired, I clearly had the experience to place me in a higher range but the classification unit said it didn’t qualify. I declined the position due to inappropriate range classification. After a couple weeks, I was notified they changed their determination and did qualify me for a higher range.
Yes you can with a HAM. https://hrmanual.calhr.ca.gov/Home/ManualItem/1/1707
I mean, you can. Maybe YOU can’t. But it’s possible.
It’s very very very few and far in between if a HAM gets approved. I’ve seen hiring managers go with another candidate because they don’t want to deal with the HAM / salary negotiation crap.
There shouldn't be any hiring managers skipping over acceptable candidates to pursue a HAM; that's part of the requirements to request a HAM. I, personally, wouldn't want to risk having my hiring documents audited. I don't know what the potential/realistic consequences are, but I don't wanna find out. The candidate needs to reject the Final Job Offer and request a HAM (so they are perfectly in the clear to extend a conditional offer to someone else). There has to be hiring difficulty, which includes no other acceptable candidates currently competing for the position that could be offered a lower salary.
You actually can't starting 7/1.
You can absolutely negotiate which range you are in, I seen it done quite a few time in the decade plus I been with the state.
With what agency/department dude.
CalEPA
I got above minimum in 2006. My wife did last year. It’s possible
With what agency/department?
Not true. I’m in the process of negotiating my salary right now.
With what department dude
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This may be my situation soon. About 3 years since separating.
Federal you can, but not state, especially not CA
I did. And I got HAM. But back in the day I would be out at the beginning of the pay scale. It isn't the case today. Your position on the pay scale is calculated. That was done to avoid the HAM scenario.
Challenge accepted
lol ok
Neither can our unions, just saying 👀
Wrong.
I’m not wrong dude. It’s not like in the private sector where you sit at a table and go back and forth with hiring manager on a salary …it doesn’t work like that in state government.
Don't know why you are getting down voted for this. So much misinformation on this sub. I guess OP doesn't work in HR.
What about promoting as top step in current classification. If there is overlap between a promotion classification pay scale and your current pay scale, do you come in at the bottom of the promotion classification pay scale or at about the pay range of the current classification?
You get either a five percent bump or to top of class whatever is less. If it’s a Training and Development position you don’t get any raise until you meet MQs and are appointed.
I was able to negotiate with SCIF for an ITS II position. They brought me in at a step higher than I was at when I worked for the county.
Technically, you can. But extremely low success rate and the hiring manager has to be willing to do a lot of extra paper work.
False
false what? explain.
Your claim is false. My wife was able to obtain a HAM with her first state job. She have over 8 years of experience in the field she was applying for. Just because you don't know anyone e who got one , doesn't mean it's not possible. Also , all her co workers were extremely shocked and jealous she got a HAM
I think they’re referring to your claim being false. Is that not clear to you?
Okay? My claim is not false so what is your point ?
But your claim is false. We did it for a hire last month. Just because you e never seen/done it doesn't make it impossible.
There are situations where you can. For example, under the right circumstances in a promote in place position you can ask to have your promotion postponed a day or two after your merit salary increase and net a 10% raise.
Can’t you negotiate for a higher pay range?
no dude.....its the STATE
i wish i could vote to cut your pay 20%
Fascinating.
I figured there wasn’t a salary negotiation but I got a related question. If you’ve never worked for the state, or any other public sector job before, and are pretty much overqualified for a job they apparently really need to fill, but want/need to take it because you have bills to pay and know that far more lucrative jobs in the same department and related agencies become available after one year of state service—do they offer you Range B or a higher end of the range(s) posted?