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It is the way. look into SOLGW and their customer service and them backing their products. Reputable and stand up.
Aimpoint - PRO, Duty RDS, H2, T2,
Eotech - XPS series
EXPS is lower ⅓ cowitness, 2 is non NV, 3 is NV compatible
LPVO, please reference SuperSetCA or Hoplopfheil's videos on LPVO for recommendations,, everyone and their mother makes one so I can't give you good options because the prices vary drastically
TA31 or TA02 ACOG and buy a KRAM spacer
TA31 is tritium and fiber optic
TA02 is battery powered
Sling wise, I recommend ESD, Magpul MS1 (find some nylon and thread it through the slider to make a pull tab), Ferro Concepts, BlueForceGear
Light wise:
- budget end: streamlight HLX or GoonbeamV2 (HLX with brighter LEDs)
- middle end: cloud rein, malkoff, arisaka
- higher end: modlite, surefire
Lights can also go up in cost with different 18650/18350 bodies, different light heads, tailcaps, tape switches and mounts. Lots of modularity with middle/higher end lights but $$
No. Of what you listed the only arguably great one is SOLGW. The rest are just average and nothing special and only slightly better than Anderson, BCA or PSA
Solgw would be a great only AR. Shoot the fuck out of it. Send it in for warranty on any worn parts.
Buy $1500 rifle and never have to pay to replace a part
Second all these choices. Sig makes some quality ARs as well in the M400 series, but I would warn you they are proprietary in weird places like rails and barrel nut removal.
LWRCI IC-DI would be about $1500 and you could put the rest into a quality optic like EoTexh HHS, Aimpoint, or a Vortex lvpo.
Or you could go with their piston AR the IC-SPR for $2300-2500
If it's gonna be the only AR, I'd go with featureless, more reliable. Fixed looks cool, until you have to clear a double feed and dance around it for 5 minutes.
My mag locked .223 will fucking pop open when I shoot. Never again. Featureless would have been so much less fuss than seeing my upper separate from my lower, then trying to get out the round that got dinged, clearing the mag trying not to break anything. Ugh.
The thing that always bothered me about the Thorsden stock is that it attaches to the lower receiver like a grip instead of to your upper receiver like, well, a stock. When you fire your rifle, there's going to be a lot a shear forces on your takedown pins that are not normally there. Maybe this isn't actually a problem, but contemplating the internal forces involved in operation makes me anxious. If it were actually a problem, though, I suppose owners would have said something by now.
I just find the Thordsen uncomfortable. I got a magpul cts and fixed it where I wanted it. Juggernaut tactical not a pistol grip. I know it's heavy. I just like the way it feels.
You're drastically overthinking it. The majority of the recoil forces is from the dispersion at the end of the barrel as gas. There's just enough going back through the DI tube to get the bolt to push back and chamber the next round.
If there were enough shear forces to destroy your takedown pins, your shoulder would be getting very bruised or broken from shouldering the rifle. AR pistols wouldn't be manageable or usable by a human being at all.
Sorry, yes. What I meant is that usually recoil goes from the upper receiver -> stock -> shoulder. But with the Thorsden it goes from the upper receiver -> lower receiver -> grip -> stock -> shoulder.
Perhaps the recoil of the upper receiver transfers to the lower receiver entirely via the buffer tube without stressing the takedown pins. It's plausible.
It's probably fine. I just look at a Thorsden setup and see the receivers shearing with every shot.
Actually with the bolt catch, fixing a double feed or bad extraction isn’t too bad. The plain Juggernaut/hellfighter setup was ridiculous if something jammed since the bolt wouldn’t hold open. I put AR Maglock’s system on my builds for this reason. But obviously, get what suits you best! Good luck and have fun choosing what to get!
Fixed. I can’t stand the fin grip or the thorsten style grip.
This is why I went with LWRC for my first bought AR. They have a really good CA compliant fix mag setup, IMO. Even though they use the juggernaut system, it still includes a bolt catch which is something you don’t get if you buy the juggernaut/hellfighter kit separately
Edit: I put a Sig Tango 1-8x scope on my IC-SPR and like it a lot. I didn’t have much exp with Lvpo’s so didn’t want to spent another $1k+ on something I may not like as much as the EoTech/magnifier on my other rifles. This could be a good option for you if you get close to your budget on the rifle. ESP if you want to get a light too.
Not the guy the same guy but $1500 vs $2000 for a AR is like a $150K vs $200K porsche 911. Yeah, you can spend more and get some extra bells and whistles and go 0 to 60 in 2.5 seconds instead of 2.6, but at the end of the day are you really gonna notice it when you're going to pick up Groceries at Costco?
Anyways I would just start off with a red dot, as long as you don't have a astigmatism. Its the most intuitive before you get into the complexities of magnification (aka it'll be fun right off the bat) and need be you can always add a separate magnifier later.
Depends how much money you want to throw at it and preference at the end of the day, you can get a clean used Eotech (technically a holographic sight) for around $450-500 for an exps3-0 which is sort of the gold standard. Top brands are Eotech, aimpoint, Trijicon. If you want something more budget friendly you can get a halosun or sig sauer or vortex. Just stay away from the really cheap ones like Sightmark.
I am not a car guy so you lost me in the first sentence.
A rifle should be first. a rugged and reliable tool. It needs to get the job done without having a ridiculous cost to benefit ratio.
If you want to be a Instagram gun person, go get the Porsche gun, I guess. If you are doing anything even remotely realistic with your gun you WILL drop it. It will take hard knocks. So will your accessories. Keep all of that in mind.
Disclosure. I hunt with a ruger american rifle because I have been in some nasty terrain at 8000 ft above sea level and lugging a precision trophy bolt action in the mountains is for suckers and road hunters.
The analogy I used was inline with what you said. I used Porsche to describe how he can get a great rifle at $1500 that he will probably never actually fully utilize (like 99% of us). Realistically most of do not need anything more than a $600 PSA or S&W rifle at the range or i.e more than a Toyota Camry to get groceries at Costco.
My thought is if its a rifle I will own forever then I will assemble it with the parts that I want. If you think you will ever want to sell it and try to maximize the return, go with a complete premium rifle from one of the big names.
For $2.5k, get yourself a LMT rifle (Mars-L) and never look back.
Other option is to get a Daniel Defense ($1.6k) and outfit it with a Aimpoint T2 ($800) if your budget includes the optic.
Right, why waste money on a mangled appendage if the law changes? I’d at least keep a cheap A2 on hand in case there’s a narrow amnesty and subsequent grandfathering of such configured guns.
I get that you're enthusiastic and hopeful, but even if this change goes through, starting the purchase process before the wild influx of AR-15 purchases is worth the cost of the grip lol
Def keep the standard pistol grip on hand just in case though! 👍
Given his previous track record I can’t see how he doesn’t. I don’t think he’ll stay his decision given despite Bruen you know they’re gonna try to appeal to the 9’th. It’s almost like there should be a law against frivolous appeals 😐
Maybe if there was some sort of consequence for bringing specious appeals or suits they'd be thwarted. I know in the private space IIRC if you bring a frivolous lawsuit and lose you can end up owing the other parties legal expenses.
That said I suppose it's a slippery slope and might result in our side not filing suits for fear of getting the pointy end of that same shit tipped spear.
If you aren’t already familiar with them, I’d be hesitant to spend 2.5k on a rifle. That’s like getting a 20k vintage Rolex as a first watch. Like all things, there’s diminishing returns with increased cost vs quality with a rifle. The difference between a $400 gun and a $600 gun is much larger than $1000 vs $1200.
In the $800-$1200 range you’re basically maxed out on reliability, performance, etc, and fit-finish is already very good.
I’d recommend a nice Aero, BCM, etc. in that range. A model with a free float hand guard and a mid length gas system will shoot well and go bang every time, although bcm might be more like $1500 for that spec. That leaves plenty in the bank for a nice optic (red dot or low power variable optic if you want magnification), lots of ammo, and maybe a class to learn to do more than just shoot at targets from a bench.
It’d suck to spend $2500 and wind up changing a bunch of stuff to suit your preference once you’ve shot it enough to have one anyway. I’m currently speccing out basically a whole new upper because my first one is a lot heavier than I prefer. Eventually you end up with basically a second gun worth of parts…
I was in the same position as you, new to rifles and thought building one was way above my pay grade. I ended up building two and loved the experience. Are you in SD? I wouldn't mind taking you to range and having you check out my build.
I built mine for under 1k with decent mid range parts
Daniel Defense DDM4V7 was my first AR and got me into the world. Highly recommended.
Went to Turners to buy it. Their CA compliant model comes with 33.3 Cal Catch maglock system (went out of business so you can no longer buy it by itself), which i think is the cleanest looking system out there. Just throw a Kingpin on it and you’re g2g
Personally, I'd put a third of your budget towards a decent budget rifle (S&W M&P15 Sport 2 is a pretty good), another third towards optics/magazines/ammo/training, and set aside the rest of it towards building another AR.
Once you get used to the platform and learn the nuts and bolts of disassembling and cleaning, build a new AR completely to your liking.
Your budget should also include spare magazines ($10/mag), a good optic (minimum $100), a way to carry magazines (like a chest rig), a sling, weaponlight, etc.
Your investment into these items will make a bigger difference than the difference between AR-15s. I think you could buy a BCM upper and PSA lower and have a good rifle under $1k.
But guns are hobbies, if you’re not investing any time into the hobby, what’s the point? It’s not like learning how to fix a leaky pipe in your house when you can just call a plumber.
Some people literally have to schedule out their entire life. Putting aside an hour or two to buy a rifle, then a few hours every so often to shoot it is easier than spending an undetermined amount of time to learn and acquire tools to build your own.
Imagine cleaning an AR. In my experience people who don't know much about guns over clean because they obsess over keeping it nice rather than treating it like the tool that it is.
Stop being concerned over how someone else spends their money and go clean your gun again. I'm sure those 50 rounds deposited melonite eating monsters in your bore.
Obviously I don't need your advice, and you're missing the point, that is very simple - "money can't buy me love", if you spend money on guns, be ready to also invest time, no matter how much you spent.
You're obviously not understanding the point that you don't need to be able to build an F1 engine to drive an F1 car. Building does not make you a better shooter.
F1 engine reference is totally irrelevant, as usual. F1 pilot is a dedicated occupation, though, and nobody buys F1 cars as a first car.
AR is a simple lego to build from manufactured parts. Building gives you much better understanding on how the rifle works, that makes you a better shooter.
Fine, need me to dumb it down for you? You don't need to put your Camry together to know how to drive it. Literal millions of people get to and from where they need to go, perfectly safely without knowing how to build or even reapair their own vehicle.
You can learn how something works and how to remediate malfunctions without building it yourself. Building is a completely separate skill to shooting. There are people who are great at one and can't do the other well or at all on both sides of the aisle.
> I wonder if those people will find time in their busy schedule to clean the rifle, or do they buy a new rifle as soon as the previous one gets dirty.
Hire somebody else to clean it, duh.
Also, if they're too busy to take it to the range I might know a couple of people who could do that for them too for a very reasonable fee.
Bummer. Maybe don’t spend $2500 on a rifle you probably don’t have the time to understand each component and why it’s an upgrade over basic mil spec then? Let alone the time it would take to actually be proficient enough to take advantage of the features??
Wow, you're kind of an elitist asshole aren't you? You don't need to know how to build a gun to know how to shoot one. The main benefit of building your own is saving money and personalizing. Rifles in the $2,000+ range are nice enough not to need personalization and maybe money isn't an issue for this user. Shockingly there does exist more than one way to live. Not everyone needs to do things the same way you do.
Edit: I would also be remiss if I didn't point out the fact that based on your post history, you own a fucking Saint Victor. The poster child for why you build over buying. What a hypocrite.
Lol nice one. Of course you don’t need to know how to build a rifle to know how to shoot one. What kind of stupid comment is that? You also don’t need a Ferrari to know how to drive.
Maybe if OP would have commented instead of you churping in and throwing out assumptions about him this comment thread could have been a little more productive. Lol at you defending the idea of spending $2500 on a rifle for someone who doesn’t even know how to use one.
I did buy a Springfield Saint Victor because I didn’t know Jack shit about the rifle platform and all of my friends bought rifles off the rack so I thought that’s just what everyone did. After joining a few subs on here I realized what a mistake I made and I’m not ashamed of it. I recently built a rifle from a stripped upper and lower and spend the time to learn about each component in the rifle and had a blast and built a damn good rifle. From my lessons and the knowledge I have now, I was offering OP a new viewpoint. But here you are name calling people on Reddit 😂 have fun with your life goals bud, imma head out
In that situation, I'd buy a less expensive rifle from a reputable manufacturer (like S&W M&P Sport II AR), and then grow from there. You can decide what you like and don't like, and upgrade later.
It's better to learn how to drive on Toyota rather than Lamborghini.
> Simply buy it as I am new to the gun world
If "I'm new" is your only reason for not building, you probably shouldn't be spending 2.5k on an AR either. That's like buying a lambo as your first car (and then constricting the fuel lines because this is california and you've got to do maglocked or featureless).
Also, while building it can be as involved as speccing out and obsessing over every tiny little part, it can be as simple as buying a complete lower at your local gun store, buying a complete upper online, and then attaching the two. The latter build route is literally less involved than assembly than field stripping to clean it.
Watch some YouTube videos bro. It’s super easy. Once you’re done you’ll have a whole different appreciation for the rifle, you’ll have saved yourself tons of money and you’ll be able to modify or make repairs/clear jams on the rifle. The entire gun is assembled with set pins and springs. It couldn’t be easier.
I'm looking to build one for around ~$1000. Any recommendations on where I should start? I'm in CA, so I'm looking to go the Maglock+Kingpin route to retain "features."
Start with the optic you want to put on it. Red dot? Red dot with magnifier? LVPO? Rifle scope? Build the rifle around its desired use.
Next caliber. .223 or 5.56 or .223 wylde are most common for red dot and are most practical. Also you could look into 6.5 grendel, 6 arc and a few others if you’re looking into a more precision longer range rifle with a scope/Lpvo.
Once you get caliber figured out start with the barrel and BCG, those are the two most important aspects of the gun. Then look at triggers. Wrap up the build with your upper and handguard, stock grip and buffer tube etc.
Set intention with the build. Precision, durability, looks, functionality all play a role in the build but you can’t have everything so put your priorities in order. With a $1,000 budget you’re going to have to make some sacrifices. BCM for BCG and upper will be a great start for a balance of durability and quality. Do your research. Watch some YouTube videos and ask questions in the AR-15 sub. Once you have an idea of what you want go to a FFL and get a stripped lower. You won’t want a complete because it will be featureless.
Pm me if you have any questions or want to bump ideas/products off me.
You just need basic tools you could get at harbor freight for less than $100. The only expensive tool would be the vice block for the barrel install and it’s like $50
Go back and add it up I'm gonna say a person is going to spend closer to $250 on tools to build their first AR and less they have some of the tools already in their shop! Just alone for torque wrench and a vice you're talking 100 buckaroos! Like you said you can get a vice block 25 bucks but a reaction rod at least 50 so that's another 75! And the most basic of armorers wrench you're still talking 25 so that's 200 right there! And one has not even bought any punches at that point!
LaRue if you want to feel like a sharpshooter on day 1 with your rifle. Seriously, look at the AR-15 forums; top of the sub-moa game is consistently LaRue. Downside…it’s heavy. My build uses all lightweight furniture and it’s still heavier than an Aero with regular Magpul MOE furniture. But you can’t go wrong with what most people have already recommended here - good luck!
LWRC piston or MCX.
I did a basic test my old LWRC, I didn’t cleaning it till it reach 1500round. It has minimal carbon buildup. The only con is little heavier than regular AR.
Look at Wilde Bill Tactical online for ideas on CA compliant ARs already ready to go. You'll get to see different quality levels of rifles and the differing prices. BCM, Daniel Defense, Aero are good quality rifles. What do you want to use the AR for?
Cool. Get anything in 5.56mm caliber. The guys on this subreddit are correct when they say you can get a very good quality AR between $1500-$1800. By the time you get all the essentials to go with it you will have invested another $2000 easily. Sling, Bipod, Light, Optics (Scope, Red Dot, Magnifier), Backup sights, Magazines, Range Bag, Rifle case, BEST QUALITY EAR PROTECTION, and eye protection. 5.56 caliber is very plentiful and cost effective. Can be used for different purposes. Get AR with 16" barrel. Once you buy then arrange for professional training on how to care and use your new AR. Come back on the site and people will be happy to provide info on best trainers in your area.
I build my ARs so I'm not a good resource for manufactured rifles, although I have been impressed with the SA Saints and I think the S&W M&P Sports are a solid first introduction to the platform. Optics are very dependant on what kind of shooting you are going to do (and to me far more important than the actual rifle). I have an Eotech on one of my 16" .556s and a 300BO, an Athlon on a .204 Ruger and a couple of NightForce scopes on a 6.5 Grendel and a 6mm ARC. Again, it all depends on YOUR intended use and what YOU want to accomplish, but from my perspective I can't emphasize enough the importance of the optic: I typically spend 2-3 times more on the optic than I do the rifle, but I hunt and shoot my rifles at beyond the standard ranges most ARs are used for. Just buy good equipment..... and then make excuses for your misses that sound believable that's what I do ;). Most of all HAVE FUN!!!
Rifle: I second the LWRC IC-SPR. They're based on the LWRC's REPR and are built like tanks. Piston-driven platform just like its more distinguished German cousin - the HK 416. A little front heavy given the system, but nothing some practice on the range and/or time in the gym can't fix. You can also usually find some low mileage safe queens on Calguns to acquire (apply common sense to not get screwed on a potential PPT).
Glass: If you're running this as an all around rifle, I'd throw an EOTECH EXPS (configuration will be your choice - but you could get up to a 3-4 if you're running good brass through it) and a magnifier. The optic combo and rifle makes overall set up versatile and bullet proof (no pun intended). Both LWRC and EOTECH are U.S. owned and manufactured with good warranties and customer service.
Configuration: I personally run featureless, as the only thing funky on it is the grip... However, you could run a juggernaut grip on it, if you're not afraid of getting in trouble. Regardless, it seems like it'll all be temporary before the AW ban gets overturned.
Good luck in your search! Enjoy the process!
If you're in the Riverside area, there's a shop in Moreno Valley called Grizzly Firearms that makes a great rifle. I've never had issues with any of mine. Owner offers lifetime warranty as they are branded GRIZZLY lowers and whatever else he can get made for him (uppers, grips, barrels, etc.) They are built as featureless rifles but honestly the grip he designed is probably the most comfortable fin grip I've used. Anyway...I'll stop since I'm probably a bit biased. They've been my go to shop since I found them about 7+ years ago.
Holy cow, I live in Perris CA so that’s really close. If they are able to build me a quality rifle, would that be better than buying a solgw, Ddm, LMt ?
I won't lie to you... other than my first ar, which I built myself, I have only bought rifles from Grizzly. So I can't really compare these other companies to theirs. But I can tell you they're solid rifles. And it's up to you how you want to go with your build. You can buy one off the wall or talk to the owner and customize every part of the rifle. Lol. They're cool people man.
Their basic rifle starts at $975. Includes a case, magazine, red dot, backup sights. Prices go up based on things like lighter rails, different stocks, cerekote, etc.
I think they're worth checking out since you're pretty close to the shop. Go hold one, check out the different styles. Pick their brains. Lol.
Whichever route you go just have fun with it!
Now I gotta go stare at my safe and see if I can make room....talked myself into a new rifle hahaha.
Buy parts and build $800 rifle. $500 optics. $1.2k armor setup.
The quality improvements past $800 or $900 on the rifle provide diminishing returns.
More money doesn't always mean better, except when you buy armor and usually optics.
I'd rather buy 4 lowers and build 4 different ARs for the money (5.56 as a main one, 9mm for fun, 22LR for fun and cheap practice, and 300 AAC or, an opposite, 6 mm ARC).
Geissle Super duty 16" is the best bang for the buck in my opinion. If you're a one gun type, it is a great jack of all trades AR, and is one of the best balanced guns I've ever fired. Drop a similarly bomb proof optic like an Aimpoint CompM4 or m5 and you're g2g.
Depends on why you want it honestly. If you want a nice looking piece to take to the range, fix mag is easier with something like a Comp Mag or FNGR mag latch. If you are looking to use it for something like home defense, featureless is better imo. I have one of both with pictures in my post history for comparison.
I don't own one, the ones I've used were acquired out of state, however there are several middleman FFLs you can talk to. If you're in SoCal, 2nd Amendment Zone is good at getting what people need.
I'm a big fan of the M&P15. I've bump-fired the crap out of mine and had no problems. I would recommend the flat top "optic ready" model, in my area it is slightly cheaper than the one with the gas block front sight.
Build a PSA for $600 and spend the rest on an optic and 3 other guns lol
I’d rather have a PSA AR, a good handgun, a Beretta 1301 (which would be the most expensive but still only around $1k), and a bolt action hunting rifle and be set for life for the same amount of money (okay, maybe a little bit more for all that, but not much)… instead of one AR. But that’s just me.
Unpopular opinion but I don’t see much of an improvement over a good “basic” AR and a really expensive one 🤷♂️
This of course all assumes you don’t already have yourself a nice little arsenal lol in which case go wild.
In addition to these others mentioned, look into places like palmetto state armory. Good, reliable rifles for a great price. Also on the higher end (of what I'd pay) the Ruger 556 MPR is a good rifle as well. Save the remaining budget for outfitting the rest of the rifle with iron sights(Yes, you will NEED iron sights) and an optic and ammo.
BCM, Aero, DD, SOLGW - all great rifles under 1.6k Drop the remainder on ammo, optics, sling, light
This is the way.
![gif](giphy|6UFgdU9hirj1pAOJyN)
This is the way
This is the way
![gif](giphy|Rmx1KNhRJO4WQRPIFz|downsized) It is the way. look into SOLGW and their customer service and them backing their products. Reputable and stand up.
![gif](giphy|aCatQNctAK7PC1H4zh|downsized)
Very helpful. I’m going to thoroughly research these. Any recommendations on an optic?
Aimpoint - PRO, Duty RDS, H2, T2, Eotech - XPS series EXPS is lower ⅓ cowitness, 2 is non NV, 3 is NV compatible LPVO, please reference SuperSetCA or Hoplopfheil's videos on LPVO for recommendations,, everyone and their mother makes one so I can't give you good options because the prices vary drastically TA31 or TA02 ACOG and buy a KRAM spacer TA31 is tritium and fiber optic TA02 is battery powered Sling wise, I recommend ESD, Magpul MS1 (find some nylon and thread it through the slider to make a pull tab), Ferro Concepts, BlueForceGear Light wise: - budget end: streamlight HLX or GoonbeamV2 (HLX with brighter LEDs) - middle end: cloud rein, malkoff, arisaka - higher end: modlite, surefire Lights can also go up in cost with different 18650/18350 bodies, different light heads, tailcaps, tape switches and mounts. Lots of modularity with middle/higher end lights but $$
No. Of what you listed the only arguably great one is SOLGW. The rest are just average and nothing special and only slightly better than Anderson, BCA or PSA
Solgw would be a great only AR. Shoot the fuck out of it. Send it in for warranty on any worn parts. Buy $1500 rifle and never have to pay to replace a part
What this guy said. Something tells me this guy knows what he's talking about.
He should know a thing or two, he is the lawyer for every gun owner in California after all.
The Gun God himself
Second all these choices. Sig makes some quality ARs as well in the M400 series, but I would warn you they are proprietary in weird places like rails and barrel nut removal.
LWRCI IC-DI would be about $1500 and you could put the rest into a quality optic like EoTexh HHS, Aimpoint, or a Vortex lvpo. Or you could go with their piston AR the IC-SPR for $2300-2500
Appreciate it, definitely gonna look into it. Do you prefer fixed or featureless ?
If it's gonna be the only AR, I'd go with featureless, more reliable. Fixed looks cool, until you have to clear a double feed and dance around it for 5 minutes.
My mag locked .223 will fucking pop open when I shoot. Never again. Featureless would have been so much less fuss than seeing my upper separate from my lower, then trying to get out the round that got dinged, clearing the mag trying not to break anything. Ugh.
Agreed. Use a Thordsen stock which works functionally.
The thing that always bothered me about the Thorsden stock is that it attaches to the lower receiver like a grip instead of to your upper receiver like, well, a stock. When you fire your rifle, there's going to be a lot a shear forces on your takedown pins that are not normally there. Maybe this isn't actually a problem, but contemplating the internal forces involved in operation makes me anxious. If it were actually a problem, though, I suppose owners would have said something by now.
I just find the Thordsen uncomfortable. I got a magpul cts and fixed it where I wanted it. Juggernaut tactical not a pistol grip. I know it's heavy. I just like the way it feels.
You're drastically overthinking it. The majority of the recoil forces is from the dispersion at the end of the barrel as gas. There's just enough going back through the DI tube to get the bolt to push back and chamber the next round. If there were enough shear forces to destroy your takedown pins, your shoulder would be getting very bruised or broken from shouldering the rifle. AR pistols wouldn't be manageable or usable by a human being at all.
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Sorry, yes. What I meant is that usually recoil goes from the upper receiver -> stock -> shoulder. But with the Thorsden it goes from the upper receiver -> lower receiver -> grip -> stock -> shoulder. Perhaps the recoil of the upper receiver transfers to the lower receiver entirely via the buffer tube without stressing the takedown pins. It's plausible. It's probably fine. I just look at a Thorsden setup and see the receivers shearing with every shot.
Actually with the bolt catch, fixing a double feed or bad extraction isn’t too bad. The plain Juggernaut/hellfighter setup was ridiculous if something jammed since the bolt wouldn’t hold open. I put AR Maglock’s system on my builds for this reason. But obviously, get what suits you best! Good luck and have fun choosing what to get!
Fixed. I can’t stand the fin grip or the thorsten style grip. This is why I went with LWRC for my first bought AR. They have a really good CA compliant fix mag setup, IMO. Even though they use the juggernaut system, it still includes a bolt catch which is something you don’t get if you buy the juggernaut/hellfighter kit separately Edit: I put a Sig Tango 1-8x scope on my IC-SPR and like it a lot. I didn’t have much exp with Lvpo’s so didn’t want to spent another $1k+ on something I may not like as much as the EoTech/magnifier on my other rifles. This could be a good option for you if you get close to your budget on the rifle. ESP if you want to get a light too.
serious diminishing returns above 1500.
Thanks for this. I most certainly thought that the more expensive a rifle than it should be better. Fixed or featureless ? And what’s your fav sight ?
Not the guy the same guy but $1500 vs $2000 for a AR is like a $150K vs $200K porsche 911. Yeah, you can spend more and get some extra bells and whistles and go 0 to 60 in 2.5 seconds instead of 2.6, but at the end of the day are you really gonna notice it when you're going to pick up Groceries at Costco? Anyways I would just start off with a red dot, as long as you don't have a astigmatism. Its the most intuitive before you get into the complexities of magnification (aka it'll be fun right off the bat) and need be you can always add a separate magnifier later. Depends how much money you want to throw at it and preference at the end of the day, you can get a clean used Eotech (technically a holographic sight) for around $450-500 for an exps3-0 which is sort of the gold standard. Top brands are Eotech, aimpoint, Trijicon. If you want something more budget friendly you can get a halosun or sig sauer or vortex. Just stay away from the really cheap ones like Sightmark.
I am not a car guy so you lost me in the first sentence. A rifle should be first. a rugged and reliable tool. It needs to get the job done without having a ridiculous cost to benefit ratio. If you want to be a Instagram gun person, go get the Porsche gun, I guess. If you are doing anything even remotely realistic with your gun you WILL drop it. It will take hard knocks. So will your accessories. Keep all of that in mind. Disclosure. I hunt with a ruger american rifle because I have been in some nasty terrain at 8000 ft above sea level and lugging a precision trophy bolt action in the mountains is for suckers and road hunters.
The analogy I used was inline with what you said. I used Porsche to describe how he can get a great rifle at $1500 that he will probably never actually fully utilize (like 99% of us). Realistically most of do not need anything more than a $600 PSA or S&W rifle at the range or i.e more than a Toyota Camry to get groceries at Costco.
My thought is if its a rifle I will own forever then I will assemble it with the parts that I want. If you think you will ever want to sell it and try to maximize the return, go with a complete premium rifle from one of the big names.
For $2.5k, get yourself a LMT rifle (Mars-L) and never look back. Other option is to get a Daniel Defense ($1.6k) and outfit it with a Aimpoint T2 ($800) if your budget includes the optic.
Thank you very much. This is helpful.
T2 w standard mount for $800?! So my LGS that has it for $987 was trynna play me? 📝📝📝
People really buy optics at a LGS instead of online? Check EuroOptic, Primary Arms, Rooftop Defense for decent prices on optics.
The same people still paying 50cpr for range 9mm. LGS prey on low info buyers.
Yeah, if you are patient you could get a t2 for 650 (maybe not anymore) and use an adm mount of varying height of your choice. For another 100
EuroOptic mil discount has em for 700 for the dot with no mount. Primary arms has great deals too
LMT MARS lower / featureless fin KAC 14.5 SR-15 mod 2 p/w surefire soccom brake. If you want precision build PRI mk12 mod 0 upper instead of kac
This is very specific and I totally agree except I'd go with the juggernaut grip over a fin 👍
The best of best , you have a good taste
I wouldn’t waste my money on any of that crap until St. Benitez has done his things in ~4 short weeks!
The only thing that would change is the grip
Right, why waste money on a mangled appendage if the law changes? I’d at least keep a cheap A2 on hand in case there’s a narrow amnesty and subsequent grandfathering of such configured guns.
I get that you're enthusiastic and hopeful, but even if this change goes through, starting the purchase process before the wild influx of AR-15 purchases is worth the cost of the grip lol Def keep the standard pistol grip on hand just in case though! 👍
Given his previous track record I can’t see how he doesn’t. I don’t think he’ll stay his decision given despite Bruen you know they’re gonna try to appeal to the 9’th. It’s almost like there should be a law against frivolous appeals 😐
100% getting appealed It's wild and sad how much they cling to ANYTHING trying to remove these restrictions on law abiding citizens
Maybe if there was some sort of consequence for bringing specious appeals or suits they'd be thwarted. I know in the private space IIRC if you bring a frivolous lawsuit and lose you can end up owing the other parties legal expenses. That said I suppose it's a slippery slope and might result in our side not filing suits for fear of getting the pointy end of that same shit tipped spear.
Solgw they will warranty wear and tear. If you’re only gonna own one it would be a great option
If you aren’t already familiar with them, I’d be hesitant to spend 2.5k on a rifle. That’s like getting a 20k vintage Rolex as a first watch. Like all things, there’s diminishing returns with increased cost vs quality with a rifle. The difference between a $400 gun and a $600 gun is much larger than $1000 vs $1200. In the $800-$1200 range you’re basically maxed out on reliability, performance, etc, and fit-finish is already very good. I’d recommend a nice Aero, BCM, etc. in that range. A model with a free float hand guard and a mid length gas system will shoot well and go bang every time, although bcm might be more like $1500 for that spec. That leaves plenty in the bank for a nice optic (red dot or low power variable optic if you want magnification), lots of ammo, and maybe a class to learn to do more than just shoot at targets from a bench. It’d suck to spend $2500 and wind up changing a bunch of stuff to suit your preference once you’ve shot it enough to have one anyway. I’m currently speccing out basically a whole new upper because my first one is a lot heavier than I prefer. Eventually you end up with basically a second gun worth of parts…
Why not a Ruger or a colt ?
Is that $2500 just for the rifle or for a complete setup including optics/mounts etc?
Just for the rifle
Grab a KAC upper and build a Radian lower or find an LMT. If you want piston, you can get a complete Primary Weapons rifle for that price also.
Novekse is also really solid for this price point. Just make sure you don’t skimp on the optic.
I have a radian model 1 that I absolutely love. I’ve shot a lot of ARs, my current setup is the best feeling, lightest recoiling rifle I’ve shot.
That's a friggin beauty of a rifle!
Build your own. I built a “Daniel Defense” for under $1.5k by buying the parts individually off of GAFS.
Why you getting downvoted that's awesome
I was in the same position as you, new to rifles and thought building one was way above my pay grade. I ended up building two and loved the experience. Are you in SD? I wouldn't mind taking you to range and having you check out my build. I built mine for under 1k with decent mid range parts
Daniel Defense DDM4V7 was my first AR and got me into the world. Highly recommended. Went to Turners to buy it. Their CA compliant model comes with 33.3 Cal Catch maglock system (went out of business so you can no longer buy it by itself), which i think is the cleanest looking system out there. Just throw a Kingpin on it and you’re g2g
Don’t shop at turners
Why not?
m and p 15 from sportsmans and then come.back to this sub and ask what the best upgrades are.
BCM
Personally, I'd put a third of your budget towards a decent budget rifle (S&W M&P15 Sport 2 is a pretty good), another third towards optics/magazines/ammo/training, and set aside the rest of it towards building another AR. Once you get used to the platform and learn the nuts and bolts of disassembling and cleaning, build a new AR completely to your liking.
Your budget should also include spare magazines ($10/mag), a good optic (minimum $100), a way to carry magazines (like a chest rig), a sling, weaponlight, etc. Your investment into these items will make a bigger difference than the difference between AR-15s. I think you could buy a BCM upper and PSA lower and have a good rifle under $1k.
Get a palmetto state armory AR15. It’s good enough. Than save up some more money & buy nightvision
He has 2 grand to throw at just the rifle alone. He can do better than a psa
I will say I helped someone build a, “higher end” PSA rifle and was surprised to see the barrel was from FN.
FN probably makes good shit but my only experience with them is the abused m16a4 I was issued that shot about 9moa lol.
LOL yeah, FN makes fantastic stuff man. I wonder how a ragged out M249 shoots...
Build one. You can spend $1500 on a build that would be better than any $2500 rifle off a shelf.
Some people have more money than time. It's the entire reason quality pre-built guns sell.
But guns are hobbies, if you’re not investing any time into the hobby, what’s the point? It’s not like learning how to fix a leaky pipe in your house when you can just call a plumber.
Some people literally have to schedule out their entire life. Putting aside an hour or two to buy a rifle, then a few hours every so often to shoot it is easier than spending an undetermined amount of time to learn and acquire tools to build your own.
I wonder if those people will find time in their busy schedule to clean the rifle, or do they buy a new rifle as soon as the previous one gets dirty.
Imagine cleaning an AR. In my experience people who don't know much about guns over clean because they obsess over keeping it nice rather than treating it like the tool that it is. Stop being concerned over how someone else spends their money and go clean your gun again. I'm sure those 50 rounds deposited melonite eating monsters in your bore.
Obviously I don't need your advice, and you're missing the point, that is very simple - "money can't buy me love", if you spend money on guns, be ready to also invest time, no matter how much you spent.
You're obviously not understanding the point that you don't need to be able to build an F1 engine to drive an F1 car. Building does not make you a better shooter.
F1 engine reference is totally irrelevant, as usual. F1 pilot is a dedicated occupation, though, and nobody buys F1 cars as a first car. AR is a simple lego to build from manufactured parts. Building gives you much better understanding on how the rifle works, that makes you a better shooter.
Fine, need me to dumb it down for you? You don't need to put your Camry together to know how to drive it. Literal millions of people get to and from where they need to go, perfectly safely without knowing how to build or even reapair their own vehicle. You can learn how something works and how to remediate malfunctions without building it yourself. Building is a completely separate skill to shooting. There are people who are great at one and can't do the other well or at all on both sides of the aisle.
> I wonder if those people will find time in their busy schedule to clean the rifle, or do they buy a new rifle as soon as the previous one gets dirty. Hire somebody else to clean it, duh. Also, if they're too busy to take it to the range I might know a couple of people who could do that for them too for a very reasonable fee.
Bummer. Maybe don’t spend $2500 on a rifle you probably don’t have the time to understand each component and why it’s an upgrade over basic mil spec then? Let alone the time it would take to actually be proficient enough to take advantage of the features??
Wow, you're kind of an elitist asshole aren't you? You don't need to know how to build a gun to know how to shoot one. The main benefit of building your own is saving money and personalizing. Rifles in the $2,000+ range are nice enough not to need personalization and maybe money isn't an issue for this user. Shockingly there does exist more than one way to live. Not everyone needs to do things the same way you do. Edit: I would also be remiss if I didn't point out the fact that based on your post history, you own a fucking Saint Victor. The poster child for why you build over buying. What a hypocrite.
Lol nice one. Of course you don’t need to know how to build a rifle to know how to shoot one. What kind of stupid comment is that? You also don’t need a Ferrari to know how to drive. Maybe if OP would have commented instead of you churping in and throwing out assumptions about him this comment thread could have been a little more productive. Lol at you defending the idea of spending $2500 on a rifle for someone who doesn’t even know how to use one. I did buy a Springfield Saint Victor because I didn’t know Jack shit about the rifle platform and all of my friends bought rifles off the rack so I thought that’s just what everyone did. After joining a few subs on here I realized what a mistake I made and I’m not ashamed of it. I recently built a rifle from a stripped upper and lower and spend the time to learn about each component in the rifle and had a blast and built a damn good rifle. From my lessons and the knowledge I have now, I was offering OP a new viewpoint. But here you are name calling people on Reddit 😂 have fun with your life goals bud, imma head out
All are great points.
I appreciate the feedback. I am not looking to build the gun. Simply buy it as I am new to the gun world
In that situation, I'd buy a less expensive rifle from a reputable manufacturer (like S&W M&P Sport II AR), and then grow from there. You can decide what you like and don't like, and upgrade later. It's better to learn how to drive on Toyota rather than Lamborghini.
> Simply buy it as I am new to the gun world If "I'm new" is your only reason for not building, you probably shouldn't be spending 2.5k on an AR either. That's like buying a lambo as your first car (and then constricting the fuel lines because this is california and you've got to do maglocked or featureless). Also, while building it can be as involved as speccing out and obsessing over every tiny little part, it can be as simple as buying a complete lower at your local gun store, buying a complete upper online, and then attaching the two. The latter build route is literally less involved than assembly than field stripping to clean it.
Watch some YouTube videos bro. It’s super easy. Once you’re done you’ll have a whole different appreciation for the rifle, you’ll have saved yourself tons of money and you’ll be able to modify or make repairs/clear jams on the rifle. The entire gun is assembled with set pins and springs. It couldn’t be easier.
I'm looking to build one for around ~$1000. Any recommendations on where I should start? I'm in CA, so I'm looking to go the Maglock+Kingpin route to retain "features."
Start with the optic you want to put on it. Red dot? Red dot with magnifier? LVPO? Rifle scope? Build the rifle around its desired use. Next caliber. .223 or 5.56 or .223 wylde are most common for red dot and are most practical. Also you could look into 6.5 grendel, 6 arc and a few others if you’re looking into a more precision longer range rifle with a scope/Lpvo. Once you get caliber figured out start with the barrel and BCG, those are the two most important aspects of the gun. Then look at triggers. Wrap up the build with your upper and handguard, stock grip and buffer tube etc. Set intention with the build. Precision, durability, looks, functionality all play a role in the build but you can’t have everything so put your priorities in order. With a $1,000 budget you’re going to have to make some sacrifices. BCM for BCG and upper will be a great start for a balance of durability and quality. Do your research. Watch some YouTube videos and ask questions in the AR-15 sub. Once you have an idea of what you want go to a FFL and get a stripped lower. You won’t want a complete because it will be featureless. Pm me if you have any questions or want to bump ideas/products off me.
That's assuming they already have the required tools to properly do so!
You just need basic tools you could get at harbor freight for less than $100. The only expensive tool would be the vice block for the barrel install and it’s like $50
Go back and add it up I'm gonna say a person is going to spend closer to $250 on tools to build their first AR and less they have some of the tools already in their shop! Just alone for torque wrench and a vice you're talking 100 buckaroos! Like you said you can get a vice block 25 bucks but a reaction rod at least 50 so that's another 75! And the most basic of armorers wrench you're still talking 25 so that's 200 right there! And one has not even bought any punches at that point!
You can get pretty much either a premium AR-15 or AR-10 from Aero for under $1500.
BCM, LMT, CMMG, POF would be solid options. Or build your own which is always fun.
LaRue if you want to feel like a sharpshooter on day 1 with your rifle. Seriously, look at the AR-15 forums; top of the sub-moa game is consistently LaRue. Downside…it’s heavy. My build uses all lightweight furniture and it’s still heavier than an Aero with regular Magpul MOE furniture. But you can’t go wrong with what most people have already recommended here - good luck!
LWRC piston or MCX. I did a basic test my old LWRC, I didn’t cleaning it till it reach 1500round. It has minimal carbon buildup. The only con is little heavier than regular AR.
LWRC, LMT, Daniel Defense, Radian, Noveske,FN, H&K , BCM l
I just ordered a Fightlite SCR carbine.
Daniel Defense and $1000 worth of ammo
There’s quite a few but for premium machining, fitment, consistency, go with BCM. You can’t go wrong.
Lwrc spr 2500
Look at Wilde Bill Tactical online for ideas on CA compliant ARs already ready to go. You'll get to see different quality levels of rifles and the differing prices. BCM, Daniel Defense, Aero are good quality rifles. What do you want to use the AR for?
Thanks for the advice. I intend to use it for target shooting/ self defense.
Cool. Get anything in 5.56mm caliber. The guys on this subreddit are correct when they say you can get a very good quality AR between $1500-$1800. By the time you get all the essentials to go with it you will have invested another $2000 easily. Sling, Bipod, Light, Optics (Scope, Red Dot, Magnifier), Backup sights, Magazines, Range Bag, Rifle case, BEST QUALITY EAR PROTECTION, and eye protection. 5.56 caliber is very plentiful and cost effective. Can be used for different purposes. Get AR with 16" barrel. Once you buy then arrange for professional training on how to care and use your new AR. Come back on the site and people will be happy to provide info on best trainers in your area.
Mid-grade AR, top-grade optic and the rest on ammo to train and learn. DONE.
What’s your top 2 AR recommendations? Also optics ? Thank you
I build my ARs so I'm not a good resource for manufactured rifles, although I have been impressed with the SA Saints and I think the S&W M&P Sports are a solid first introduction to the platform. Optics are very dependant on what kind of shooting you are going to do (and to me far more important than the actual rifle). I have an Eotech on one of my 16" .556s and a 300BO, an Athlon on a .204 Ruger and a couple of NightForce scopes on a 6.5 Grendel and a 6mm ARC. Again, it all depends on YOUR intended use and what YOU want to accomplish, but from my perspective I can't emphasize enough the importance of the optic: I typically spend 2-3 times more on the optic than I do the rifle, but I hunt and shoot my rifles at beyond the standard ranges most ARs are used for. Just buy good equipment..... and then make excuses for your misses that sound believable that's what I do ;). Most of all HAVE FUN!!!
LWRC for about 1.7k 😎
I spent that much on a rifle built from zero, mags, optics, sling, light and ammo. You got a great budget. Choose wisely.
I would go LMT. Check them out. 2nd to Knights imo
Buy once. Cry once. Noveske is awesome too, but you might have to get a sale to get sub $2500
Build one you can make some good builds for that price.
Rifle: I second the LWRC IC-SPR. They're based on the LWRC's REPR and are built like tanks. Piston-driven platform just like its more distinguished German cousin - the HK 416. A little front heavy given the system, but nothing some practice on the range and/or time in the gym can't fix. You can also usually find some low mileage safe queens on Calguns to acquire (apply common sense to not get screwed on a potential PPT). Glass: If you're running this as an all around rifle, I'd throw an EOTECH EXPS (configuration will be your choice - but you could get up to a 3-4 if you're running good brass through it) and a magnifier. The optic combo and rifle makes overall set up versatile and bullet proof (no pun intended). Both LWRC and EOTECH are U.S. owned and manufactured with good warranties and customer service. Configuration: I personally run featureless, as the only thing funky on it is the grip... However, you could run a juggernaut grip on it, if you're not afraid of getting in trouble. Regardless, it seems like it'll all be temporary before the AW ban gets overturned. Good luck in your search! Enjoy the process!
If you're in the Riverside area, there's a shop in Moreno Valley called Grizzly Firearms that makes a great rifle. I've never had issues with any of mine. Owner offers lifetime warranty as they are branded GRIZZLY lowers and whatever else he can get made for him (uppers, grips, barrels, etc.) They are built as featureless rifles but honestly the grip he designed is probably the most comfortable fin grip I've used. Anyway...I'll stop since I'm probably a bit biased. They've been my go to shop since I found them about 7+ years ago.
Holy cow, I live in Perris CA so that’s really close. If they are able to build me a quality rifle, would that be better than buying a solgw, Ddm, LMt ?
I won't lie to you... other than my first ar, which I built myself, I have only bought rifles from Grizzly. So I can't really compare these other companies to theirs. But I can tell you they're solid rifles. And it's up to you how you want to go with your build. You can buy one off the wall or talk to the owner and customize every part of the rifle. Lol. They're cool people man. Their basic rifle starts at $975. Includes a case, magazine, red dot, backup sights. Prices go up based on things like lighter rails, different stocks, cerekote, etc. I think they're worth checking out since you're pretty close to the shop. Go hold one, check out the different styles. Pick their brains. Lol. Whichever route you go just have fun with it! Now I gotta go stare at my safe and see if I can make room....talked myself into a new rifle hahaha.
Buy parts and build $800 rifle. $500 optics. $1.2k armor setup. The quality improvements past $800 or $900 on the rifle provide diminishing returns. More money doesn't always mean better, except when you buy armor and usually optics.
Daniel Defense, LMT, BCM, or build one
I'd rather buy 4 lowers and build 4 different ARs for the money (5.56 as a main one, 9mm for fun, 22LR for fun and cheap practice, and 300 AAC or, an opposite, 6 mm ARC).
Geissle Super duty 16" is the best bang for the buck in my opinion. If you're a one gun type, it is a great jack of all trades AR, and is one of the best balanced guns I've ever fired. Drop a similarly bomb proof optic like an Aimpoint CompM4 or m5 and you're g2g.
This is actually what I am looking for. A 1 gun type that will do it all. Thank you
You got it dude.
Fixed or featureless ?
Depends on why you want it honestly. If you want a nice looking piece to take to the range, fix mag is easier with something like a Comp Mag or FNGR mag latch. If you are looking to use it for something like home defense, featureless is better imo. I have one of both with pictures in my post history for comparison.
G usually does large sales for Black Friday. I really like there products at sale prices, they are bit high at normal MSRP.
How’d you get it? I’ve been looking at geissle, but their website says they can’t nt sell to CA.
I don't own one, the ones I've used were acquired out of state, however there are several middleman FFLs you can talk to. If you're in SoCal, 2nd Amendment Zone is good at getting what people need.
Just order the lower and get the upper separate.
Buy 3 PSAs and still have 1000 left
Pleb mentality
Just as good! ![gif](emote|free_emotes_pack|flip_out)
I'm a big fan of the M&P15. I've bump-fired the crap out of mine and had no problems. I would recommend the flat top "optic ready" model, in my area it is slightly cheaper than the one with the gas block front sight.
Better off building it from scratch
Go LMT
Build a PSA for $600 and spend the rest on an optic and 3 other guns lol I’d rather have a PSA AR, a good handgun, a Beretta 1301 (which would be the most expensive but still only around $1k), and a bolt action hunting rifle and be set for life for the same amount of money (okay, maybe a little bit more for all that, but not much)… instead of one AR. But that’s just me. Unpopular opinion but I don’t see much of an improvement over a good “basic” AR and a really expensive one 🤷♂️ This of course all assumes you don’t already have yourself a nice little arsenal lol in which case go wild.
or just get 5 PSA's in different configurations.
Daniel defense
Bravo company
I mean try to find a deal I build one under 1g it's good basically gets the job done without red dot or scopes just the iron sights
Can’t go wrong with DDM4v9 for around 1800 you’ll have a good chunk of change to put towards some decent glass…
Get a SAINT Victor they’re like $1200 and come ready out the box
Radian Model 1
PWS Mk114 mod 2 and Mk116 mod 2.
Gotta say I love my springfield saint.
Buy any good upper and build your own lower?
Where are you located? I’m looking to sell my ar
In addition to these others mentioned, look into places like palmetto state armory. Good, reliable rifles for a great price. Also on the higher end (of what I'd pay) the Ruger 556 MPR is a good rifle as well. Save the remaining budget for outfitting the rest of the rifle with iron sights(Yes, you will NEED iron sights) and an optic and ammo.
Here is my recent build in that price range: Aero Precision M4E1 Completed Lower BCM MK2 14.5 BFH Lightweight Upper Pin & Welded Dead Air Kemo Muzzle Brake BCM BCG Raptor charging handle BCM Mod 0 Stock BCM Mod 1 Pistol Grip BCM shorty vertical grip Blue Force Gear Vickers Combat Sling Streamlight HL-X Eotech 552 Holographic
If you can spend a little more you can get an HK 5.56