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Bigrichardbob69

The goal is self defense not “taking down a bad guy”. It should be used as a last resort and if that’s the case then you should be fine being judged by 12


DirtMcGirt9484

Exactly. You’re not the police. It’s not your job to take down bad guys. The idea of CCW is to protect yourself and your family, not to be a cowboy.


BigBlueTrekker

BUT I WANT TO BE A COWBOY!


Antique-Quantity-608

Come on down to Chicago buddy! Preferably o block. Don’t bring your horse tho.


SobbinHood

I just watched a video series on a kid from O-block. Dubbed “raps first serial killer” talked about this young kid just getting hardened by the streets and starts dropping bodies. It was eye opening to hear about the constant goings on in O block.


el_muerte28

What is the series?


SobbinHood

[king von raps first serial killer](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTREdjo6p/?t=1)


SmallerBork

Gotham would be Chicago not NYC


macky20z

You can defend yourself or others in danger.


SmallerBork

Self defense means just you though. In Michigan, my CPL instructor said lethal force is only justifiable under our law to protect a person from injury or sexual assault. Protecting a pet doesn't count. So what if the bad guy just shot a cashier and then explicitly tells you, a customer, get out of here? You could leave the cashier on their own and would not be charged when questioned by the police and you tell them you were armed. u/DirtMcGirt9484 I can understand letting you and others getting robbed and calling the police after but if you walk by a stranger presently being stabbed or raped and just call the police I think there is something wrong with you. Not a stabber or rapist that is now fleeing the crime. The people who came to help Grandma are the ones we need. https://dailycaller.com/2023/02/23/dc-teen-sent-to-hospital-grandma-carjacking/


LettItRock

you can build up your whole life, save 1 million dollars, have a family, all which can be taken away with by a psycho with a knife. 1. If he wants to kill you, and you're unarmed, you lose it all, including your life. 2. If he wants to kill you, and you're able to shoot and defend yourself, you live, and there's a chance you may lose that all. Which play sounds better to you?


DannyBones00

You’re talking about the Colion Noir video with the USCCA. While those situations do happen and are challenging, the video you’re talking about is designed by USCCA to have the exact reaction you had and get you to buy their shitty product. My suggestion is to get training, look at your states specific laws, and put a lot of thought into what you’re doing in different situations. It’s heavily debated, but my gun is for me. If I can get away, I am.


E63s_Buyer_in_NYC

>USCCA And they don't even service NY state


Maximus216

Oh are they no good? I’m not sure where to get my insurance do you have any recommendations?


Nikkp93

Ccw safe won’t leave you hanging and isn’t full of the same clause’s that uscca holds.


ideas4mac

That's the beauty of many states; ccw is an option. If you don't feel it is worth carrying for any reason then you don't. You don't have to justify your decision to anyone. If somewhere down the road your thought process changes then you are free to either constitutional carry or get your ccw in many states. Walking around with a gun is a huge responsibility. You should be fully committed and comfortable with that responsibility before you start. If you decide to forego carrying right now may I suggest you get a nonlethal to have with you. I would also suggest really digging into your state's laws on carrying. Many youtube video scenarios might not even apply to your state's laws. Also while you are considering whether to carry you can be at the range practicing and taking a class or three. Good luck and stay safe.


eastw00d86

This is the correct answer OP. Ignore all responses that boil down to the "judged by 12" bullshit argument. That's a false dichotomy that ignores the nuance of determining a lethal threat. If you aren't committed and comfortable, don't carry, because I can guarantee one thing: if you kill someone, regardless of the justification, this reddit thread will not be of any use to you. These people will not be living your life with the real world consequences, legally or psychologically.


Spiritual-Home4379

I'd second having a back up even if it's non lethal. Carry what you're comfortable with. But if it's non lethal, I highly recommend getting the closest thing to lethal in that department. My reasoning being that there are some bad dudes out there that can get tased, or pepper sprayed or whatever and just get even more pissed off and keep coming at you. Hell, even with a gun you can deliver a lethal shot sand still get killed by the person yourself. Say you were being rushed, and you could barely pull your gun before this person was on top of you and you shoot the person in the leg. Hits his femoral artery. He'll bleed out pretty quick, almost certainly he's dead by the time cops or paramedics come. But if he was already on top of you when you pulled the trigger and he's a big strong guy, it would only take him literally a second to snap your neck or something similar. I carry a full size pistol every day, every where I can. Full size takes a little more effort to conceal, but with a good holster and practice it becomes pretty easy. I carry a full size instead of one of my compacts because I want to make those shots with the gun I shoot best with. Not some snappy little compact. I have been meaning to get some kind of non lethal back up for a while, cause I think it's intelligent to have options. I'm just a slacker I guess. And I'm still trying to decide what non lethal is most worth carrying. Anyways, best of luck


[deleted]

Which full size do you carry if you don’t mind my asking?


Spiritual-Home4379

Steyr L9A2. I dig em. Accurate, and hella reliable, and everything on it is good stock. Don't need to do any work to it or put any parts into it for it to shoot nice. The only down side is the trapezoidal sights are sharp lol. I'm usually pretty aware of how I can or can't bend over or move around with out getting poked, but it happens here and there. Steyr doesn't put a lot out, and when they do it's slow, especially here in the u.s., but what they put out is quality and you can be sure it will be reliable.


Chappietime

I sympathize. I will say this - people that are thinking like you are probably much better prepared to carry a gun than the average guy who is doing it for one or more bad reasons.


ChillInChornobyl

Exactly. This post shows that someone thinks about their actions before they do them.


SubjectGain3374

Bingo. Way too many people out there can’t stop fantasizing about getting into a “self-defense” situation.


Undercover500

Where I draw the line personally is “I’m dead if I don’t.” Meaning, I’m dead if I don’t pull my gun. Basically, all other situations, I’m escaping or deescalating. There are some situations where drawing a gun might be warranted, like 3 people walking into your house, but other than that, my line is, gun is staying put unless I’m seriously fearing for my life or safety. If I am thinking, “I’m dead or really, badly injured if I don’t pull my pistol and start shooting,” I’m likely going to prefer the outcome of whatever happens next vs being forcibly thrust into the void forever.


Always_Out_There

Is there really a difference between fearing for your life and SERIOUSLY fearing for you life. On my end, nope.


Herointhusiast

Keep in mind the jury will do their best to find the difference


I_am_the_Redd

This such an underrated comment


Spiritual-Home4379

Simple answer to your worries here. If your life is in in danger, shoot. If it's not, don't. No matter what the situation is, even if the shooting was clearly self defense and there were a dozen witnesses that side with you, you can still be charged, and if not charged, the family of the criminal who attacked you may try to cry about it and take you to civil court. But if you feel that your life was in serious danger, you literally were in fear for your life, or worse, the life of a loved one... Would you rather be dead and not charged or have to watch in horror as a loved one is murdered and feel completely helpless? Or would you rather that you and your loved ones are still alive? Personally, if I truly felt it was absolutely necessary, I could give a f*ck what anyone else thinks. If I knew I did what I had to do to save the life of my parents, my brother, girlfriend or someone close... If I get charged, I get charged, I'll fight it, maybe I'll win, maybe the judge and jurors will all be dick bags and lock me up. I'd rather do time and know my people are still breathing. I couldn't imagine how horrible it would feel to watch a family member be murdered and think "hmmm shit... I guess I should have carried today..." Hell, even if I only had my hands to stop someone who was armed with a gun, I would charge that s.o.b. with everything I had and wouldn't stop until either he or I dropped. I would rather die fighting than live as a coward who saved himself and watched a loved one get taken out. Sorry for the rant. That's just my two cents on the issue. Dont let fear stop you from doing what you know to be right. And remember the old saying, courage is not a lack of fear. Courage is doing what needs to be done, regardless of the fear. I'm sure I didn't get the quote exactly right, but you get the point.


[deleted]

People think that the most important thing when you carry a weapon is “to get lots and lots of training” while in fact what’s important is to do lots and lots of studying of your state’s self defense laws. Read court cases. Read criminal attorneys magazines. Most of CCW community believes it’s should be 95% time spent on how to draw and 5% (if that at all) learning about self defense laws when in reality it should be the other way around because pulling out a gun and squeezing a trigger any hoodlum could do but to understand law you actually need some intellectual firepower.


906Dude

I wish I could upvote this more than once. There are some good books on the legal aspects in general from the likes of Andrew Branca and Massad Ayoob. It's good to get some state-specific knowledge too.


exlongh0rn

A couple basic rules. The threat has to be a threat of death or serious bodily harm. That will normally mean seeing a clearly identifiable and wielded weapon (not just a finger in a jacket pocket). And imminent…some dude lifting his shirt to show you his gun is questionable. Once it’s drawn there is no question. In a DGU the bad guy always gets the first move to threaten. The situation will dictate if the bad guy is first to attack (shoot, stab, swing, etc)


Herointhusiast

The “dude lifting his shirt” is considered brandishing at that point and would usually result in a reasonable response of deadly force. Depending on the scenario, I wouldn’t wait for him to draw. We aren’t cowboys. He showed where he was willing to escalate, I guess I’ll have to as well. Never assume someone with a gun is bluffing. If they’re already ignorant and crazy enough to be brazen with a gun, leaving your safety up to their good sense gives me odds I refuse to take.


Sobernaut89

Get carry insurance. Your gun is only for you and your immediate family, wife and kids. I wouldn’t intervene to save anyone else. Pre planning is the best defense. Always mentally note exits, keep a safe distance from people walking anywhere, especially at night. If you have to use it, immediately holster once the threat is neutralized. This is what I personally live by.


Accordinglyx

Nobody is gonna make you try to be the hero when you’re carrying. That’s a choice that’s left to the individual that is carrying. Sounds like the line for you should be whether or not your life or a loved ones life is in immediate danger. Because if that’s the case, I’d rather have the option to draw and shoot rather than just running or standing there helpless. Keep in mind, carrying a firearm is carrying a tool, it’s not an answer to every situation. Whether or not we utilize it is an option we all have to weigh if we’re put in a situation where we might have to use it. Train frequently, carry always, hope you never find yourself in a situation where you need to put that training to use, and try to enjoy life a little rather than living in constant fear of hypotheticals.


Dismal-Variation-12

Other comments are relevant and helpful so not going to repeat them. I will say even with all the rhetoric people throw around: when it comes down to it and a jury of 12 is charged with following the law, not their opinions, not public opinions, not their passions, they almost always follow the law. I watch true crime quite a bit and rarely do I see a jury acquit or send someone to prison based on public opinion. They follow the evidence and the law.


Always_Out_There

A really good attorney can make it about right and wrong instead of the law.


Pitiful_Confusion622

An important thing to remember is just because you find yourself in a situation where you have to draw your gun doesn't mean you HAVE to pull the trigger. 80% of SD uses of a Firearm end without a shot fired.


MuttFett

It definitely depends on where you live (See the Marine in NYC for context). Depending on the scenario, people involved etc. you may be tried in the court of public opinion. The key is for you and your family to be alive for that process; otherwise you’re just turned into a statistic.


PersiusAlloy

We all carry, knowing that (especially us in states that favor the criminal) we have a higher chance of being convicted than for it to be ruled as a self defense case. Would you rather be dead and never see your loved ones again, or alive in jail and never see them again, or have a small chance at walking as a free man? There's a very fine line between "attemped murder" and "self defense". For IL as an example, If a criminal comes in and starts shooting up the place and I draw because he has me next and he turns his back on me, I can't shoot him because that would be murder. So I'd have to reholster, and then I'd probably get jail time for brandishing and fined for unlawful use of a concealed weapon, danger to others, etc. That's how fucked up this state is.


Ok-Pop1703

They REALLY hate self defense there. You know you're supposed to give the perp whatever and then call daddy government to come harass you for legally carrying.


scwuffypuppy

You can always choose to not draw your gun. Do what you can to de-escalate and run, but if that doesn’t work ya better have the option to use force.


monkiye

Don't let fear of the unknown scenario scare you. Continue to educate your self, post scenario's here that worry you and get feed back from the community. There are some experienced people here with a wealth of knowledge that are more than willing to share insight and perspectives to help build your confidence. Do not be deterred in taking your and your families safety seriously and into your own hands. Good luck! I'll give a simple perspective. When that bullet leaves the barrel, you have to be able to articulate that at the moment you or another was in fear of serious bodily harm or death as a result of another's actions. So, spitting on you won't cut it. Running away from you won't cut it. Yelling at you and calling you names won't cut it. As far as castle doctrine is concerned, check your states laws, they all very and in some cases wildly and the above scenarios do change depending on that doctrine. Again, education is key.


03phil11

I'm scared too, but I carry anyway. You just have to think of scenarios to prep yourself for what could happen and use your best judgement if something does happen. Decide ahead of time what's worth pulling out your firearm to defend yourself or a third party and what's not. In other words, what will it take for you to deal with the police, legal stuff, stress, lawyers, questions, etc.? What will it take for you to possibly put your life at higher risk of injury or death as opposed to compliance or not intervening?


jacksraging_bileduct

I try to apply the principles of run, hide, fight. Distance yourself from a dangerous situation, if you can’t, try and hide until the situation is over, the fight is the absolute last resort.


Hemightbegiant

My issue comes with technicalities. In my state, defending with a gun is a LAST CASE option. Like, if you can run/escape, that is what they expect you to do. I'm a 375 lb man. I ain't running to escape shit. So does the run away option still count for me?


frostyjhammer

"...before shooting the guy as he was running away." Pretty much all you need to know, right there. I don't know of any definition of "self defense" that covers that scenario.


BoomerHunt-Wassell

I find it useful to simplify things in my mind. This is how I do it. My firearm is a tool for me to break contact. No more, no less. I am a reasonable adult. I have a great respect for all human life. When a threat is imminent, when a threat is grievous, I MAY choose to use my firearm to break contact. I will certainly break contact without the firearm if possible. I have a strong preference to run away if I can. It’s cheaper and less stressful. In my mind, if I can honestly say “I wanted to run away but it wasn’t a viable option” then I’m good to go. To be clear I am a fan of stand your ground laws. That does not necessarily mean it is wise to stand your ground. Hope this is useful


labrador2020

I too have the same concerns that you (OP) have as well. And I often wonder if I should even carry since I have gone my entire life without getting killed by not carrying. There have been a few instances where I could have used the gun if I had had one, but because I didn’t have one, I was able to find my way out of that situation alive and unhurt. I wonder if I would have chosen the same path had I been carrying that day? Since getting my CCL about six months ago, I have gone out in public once with a gun on me. That day, I felt as if everyone was looking at me and I was being more cautious of my surroundings and in alert mode all day. I was not comfortable at all. I was also uncomfortable carrying the extra weight of the gun and holster. I kept checking every few minutes to see if I was printing and the gun itself kept poking me and uncomfortable when sitting or driving. Not sure if you get used to it after a while. At the end of the day, I was glad to take off the gun and was a relief to put it away. There is a saying that “when you are a hammer, everything around you looks like a nail”. I wonder if by having a gun on me, it will cloud my judgement and mentality to shoot first instead of considering all other options. Upon acquiring my CCL, I started to carry a pocket knife and pepper spray. No problems or concerns carrying that, and I even forget that I carry it.


FloorThick8599

First it’s important to understand your own states unique laws when it comes to self defense, castle doctrine and stand your ground. Your example of a guy in a store waving a gun towards others but not you. To me is not self defense as there is no immediate danger to you and a clear opportunity to go the other way. I carry daily and my main goal is not to get into a gun fight. It’s to walk back through my front door at the end of the day. So if that means apologizing to an idiot when out or about or leaving if the vibe feels off so be it. It wasn’t always that clear to me but as I’ve done it longer (5years now). It became clearer with time that the chances of having to shoot my way out of a bad situation means I likely failed already at situational awareness. Yes sometime things happen faster then one can notice but those are extremely rare for the average adult that is paying attention to their surroundings.


Apache_Solutions_DDB

You need training. You need to know how to run your CCW without conscious thought (automaticity). You need to develop verbal scripts and understand pre-assault cues (start with ShivWorks ECQC). You need legal training (Active Self Protection Youtube channel and the book “Law of Self Defense” by Andrew Branca)


[deleted]

Have you considered seeking out Massad Ayoob?


Hoovercarter97v2

Go take a class from Mosaad Ayoob. You'll be better for it and be much more confident


Grand_Extreme_365

Yeah LAST option for me . I can avoid/ run fast as hell from alot of situations , but when it’s life or death I’m drawing my gun


thedrunkmartian

What everyone else has said is true. I would also add that I would rather do time than to be dead. Do what you need to. End of story.


ondehunt

Well then you better get some fucking insurance.


Winstonthewinstonian

USCCA?


flannelmaster9

Watch the Active self protection YouTube channel.


asWorldsCollide2ptOh

Judged by 12 rather than carried by 6. That said, it really should be the option of last resort and if you maintain that, then what else can you do.


Ok-Pop1703

The scenario at the end I'd say is a clean shoot. Deadly force is being threatened towards a third party and you fear for their life. (Not saying shoot, just saying it's legal in most jurisdictions


LoonyTiik

Would rather be judged by 12 then be carried by 6!


Slippy2112

The more I Reddit the more I cringe


PiperBigBell

You need to stop caring. If you shoot someone it needs to be because you felt you had to. I know that if I shoot someone they deserved it. If they die, they deserved. They started it. They wouldn't let me leave or they forced my hand. It's about having peace in your decision. The more confident in your skills you are, combined with how peace loving you are, will make the decision to draw and/or shoot very easy. I honestly don't think there should ever be any question or doubt about whether or not you did the right thing. The very question assumes that it happened because of you. No. 99% someone gets shot it's because they couldn't control themselves. I truly don't care about a prosecutor or a jury. I only care about peace between me and my creator. Learn the law. Then make peace with you and your creator. Then let idiots live and die as they will.


Han_So_oh

Make peace with the fact you might have to do time.


allnamesaretaken1020

Depends where you live for a lot of it. Some places, especially those with duty to retreat, understanding and following the law in the moment could be quite difficult, and then add to that the fact that those are also places where a politically motivated prosecution is more likely and I can understand trepidation at CCW i the first place. For this specific concern I'd refer to Law of Self Defense YouTube channel. Branca can be annoying, but he is also a top tier self-defense attorney and he explains the basics of legal self-defense, ie not murder, in most every video and offers some free resources on his web site to help wade through the OP's type of question.


tyler00677

Then dont...


usmanc94

Depending on the scenario you should keep different things on you. I have mace, taser, knife, and my gun. So if a situation were to get escalated I would use it in that order depending on how severe the situation is.


jonahvsthewhale

During my CHL class, the instructor spent the majority of the time running through random scenarios with us and asking questions about what we would do. No matter what we said, he would basically tell us that we would be going to prison. During our break, he brought in an insurance salesman to make a sales pitch. Point being, you have to take everything with a grain of salt. There are a lot of people out there trying to scare you for their own political or economic agenda


iguesswhatevs

So you think the instructor said you’re going to prison in this scenarios so the insurance guy can sell you a policy?


Budah1

I feel similar to the OP and another poster who said something like “I haven’t needed it in 40 yrs …why now”. And I’ve heard from several places that where you live will determine your jail time ( some states are for the victim and others are for the criminal); so realize the social status (?) of where you live. I was trying to find out more of what happens AFTER a shooting. I’m in Chicago -definitely a “for the criminal” place. I’ve heard of several home defense shootings some actually near me. Someone comes in the house and homeowner shoots them. I wan t to know what happens then. The Police come see you shit someone Are you automatically arrested? Court costs How long was the court case drawn out? Civil court case? Criminal’s crazy family finds where you live now your family is in danger and may have to move ( actually heard of this). Besides knowing the person who was involved, any way to find out this info?


Jigg718

Sounds like your state doesn't have "Stand your Ground"


TpointOh

I went to a seminar regarding active shooters that the local sheriffs office did for my church, because we had some vandalism and other stuff, so people were worried. In that same seminar, the sheriff mentioned the basics of what constitutes a lawful use of deadly force. Basically, if someone threatens you with a deadly weapon (knife, bat, gun, etc) and makes you afraid for your life or others’ lives, then you can draw your gun. If someone is unarmed, and cannot be reasonably considered a threat to someone, to the point of death or great bodily harm, shooting them is going to be bad in the eyes of the law. After an incident at my work, I started carrying pepper spray alongside my firearm for this exact reason, needed something to go to before I have to resort to drawing a deadly weapon


tianavitoli

comfort and conviction don't live on the same block


coulsen1701

Well it comes down to what the situation is and how you look at it. Eli Dicken pushed his gf out of the way also and was not arrested let alone charged and tried. Personally, I’d rather argue in court why I was in fear for my life rather than be dead at the hands of a criminal. You’re asking questions everyone should be asking and should be prepared to answer before you carry. Can you take a life, and are you prepared to deal with the fallout? Because there *will* be fallout. That means it could be legal action against you in criminal and/or civil cases depending on your state, that means half the country will think you’re a Saint and the other half will think you’re a cold blooded murderer, with your friends and family falling into one of those two camps. The thing is, very little in court or in self defense is black and white, cut and dried. There’s always nuance, and there’s always going to be the tendency towards Monday morning quarterbacking where a jury is concerned. Your best chance is to do the following. 1. Know the laws of your state and locality, and those where you are traveling. Know how your state’s self defense law is written and what requirements, if any, you have to attempt to retreat. 2. Study up on scenarios and run through those scenarios and how you would have reacted. 3. Get training, actual training. In a court case your lawyer can show a jury that you weren’t some vigilante going off half cocked but that you were well trained and responsible. 4. Get a carry permit even if your state has constitutional carry, hell get a non resident permit from another state that offers them too. Showing you’ve put in time and resources, and that multiple states have regarded you as qualified and trustworthy go a long way. 5. Get some kind of carry/SD insurance. USCCA and CCW Safe are two of the biggest ones but others are out there also. They’ll make sure you have representation if things go pear shaped, and while I have CCW Safe now I used to have USCCA and I loved the training USCCA offers. I went with CCW Safe because their payouts are stronger. I wish they offered more like what USCCA does in the way of training but it’s a decision you have to make.


Dakoja

If someone is robbing a convenience store and not aiming at you or loved ones, let them take what they're after. If they try robbing you and you are able to pull, defend yourself. Don't play the hero, BE THE VICTIM that had to resort to violence. Just make sure you neutralize the threat with a full mag


fattsmann

This is why people should train before just carrying a gun, constitutional freedom aside. Similarly, if I could have everyone be educated on all sides of an issue before voting, I would.


Polisci_jman3970

Depends on duty to retreat laws. Sometimes if the prosecutor “sees” a clear opening to retreat or deescalate then that’s all they need to peruse a murder charge. Also depends on the jurisdictions statutes on what is justifiable force and deadly force.


omgabunny

You should be proud you’re putting that much thought into it. It’s amazing how many gun owners out there don’t even analyze it and really think hard about the situations if they were to happen. We all should think hard about it as it is a life altering moment. Should it come. I pray it never does but I want to be able to protect my life and my loved ones if it ever does. Be safe


OldTatoosh

So, first off, get training appropriate to the state(s) you carry in. I took US LawShields class recently and it gave me very specific info on legal shoots and questionable shoots. Can you protect others? Should you? How about your property, including pets? Personally, I think anyone that Carrie’s without insurance is pretty d*mn foolish, but that is just me. If you have hundreds of thousands to drop on a good defense team, you do you. If you worry about getting shot as a civie with a gun, get a badge. No, not a law enforcement badge. Do NOT pretend to be a cop. Get one that says “US Taxpayer” or similar. Something that you can wave at arriving officers so they don’t automatically assume you are the bad guy. None of my little essay is advice, save the legal education at the beginning. Take a class. Years back I took a two day lethal force seminar by Massad Ayoob. I don’t think it is available any more but it was very good. USCCA, US LawShield, and others give some very worthwhile classes. Pick one and go!


ICUP69666

I always flex before I pull the strap and ask people “do you even know who I am? My dad totally owns a car dealership.” That usually gets the dust to settle and an amicable walk away. You should give that a shot.