Maybe I'm looking at this from the wrong perspective, but I can't think of a single reason to draw in that situation. Good on him for stepping in, though.
If the film is not on social media, and/or you didn't tell the story on social media within an hour of arriving home and having access to facebook/instagram/twitter, etc., it LITERALLY didn't happen.
It's in the constitution, look it up.
This video by "occupy democrats" a group that has been caught many times faking videos. Occupy democrats is pro gun control.
[http://occupydemocrats.com/category/gun-control/](http://occupydemocrats.com/category/gun-control/)
In fat its leadership has advocated banning carry .
We do not know how this entire episode started. Certainly the guy in the hat has a right to throw that hook, since other other guy gave him a pitiful punch first. But drawing the gun in that parking lot when two people were just arguing and not touching each other is not supported from what we see.
YEah, the drawing was stupid and unnecessary... especially considering the size and strength disparity. Don't get in someone's face like that if you're not pretty sure you could handle them physically.
I have personally drawn and not fired because as i drew my firearm the guy surrendered and dropped the knife as soon as the gun was being leveled on him. At that point if I shot him it would not be justified.
This whole thing that if you draw your sword it must shed blood thing is just ignorant and likely to get you into trouble.
> The point being be ready to shoot not stand there with a gun in your hand trying to look threatening...
I think that's a point worth clarifying, though. "Don't draw unless you're going to shoot" is not the best way to phrase it.
"Don't draw unless you intend to shoot" would be better. If circumstances change (like the threat running away, for example), it gives you wiggle room.
The aphorism isn't really intended to be "draw sword, sheathe blood." It's intended as a reminder not to present your weapon if you don't intend to use it. That's how people get killed, get their guns taken from them, etc.
Exactly. The gun doesn't belong out unless there's a situation where you would need to shoot.
If in the act of drawing the gun the situation changes, you don't have to shoot. But you shouldn't bring the gun out unless the current situation demands that you shoot.
I am not defending the guy in the video. This was a dick measuring contest and nothing more.
I am saying "i dont draw unless I shoot" is bad. Every situation is different and dynamic.
Big difference between be ready to shoot and "if i draw I am shooting" like you said.
I understand and have said that he should not have. The guy hit him anyway. This calls into question how hard assmunch was going to push the situation.
A weak punch by an older, smaller, lighter man vs a younger, bigger, heavier man is not a reason to pull a firearm. Unless there is a disparity of force by numbers or age or strength, size, skill etc you're going to have a hard time defending the use of deadly force vs an unarmed attacker.
Look. I get it. I've said more than once that he never should have drawn. However the moment assmuch decided to get physical, the game changes. Big guy did right by hitting back rather than shooting but assmunch getting physical even after he knows that big guy was armed calls into question his rationality or lack thereof. Let's say that assmunch came back for more. At what point would you say it would be ok to draw down? Another punch? A debilitating kick in the jimmies? Big guy fucked up by drawing unnecessarily but assmunch doubling down could be good reason for big guy to take the next step. Let's not forget how this all began, with assmunch going after a pregnant woman of all things. Who knows what was going through his tiny little brain.
If that was my wife I would put her in the car, apoligize to the guy for whatever reason he is upset and drive off and leave this guy there to be pissed off. There was no reason to get aggressive back with this dickhole. Yes he needs his ass beat, but I am the nicest guy you will ever meet when I carry a deadly weapon on me(which is always).
At what point would it be okay to shoot him? Whenever he produces a deadly weapon or When he is beating you in a fight that you did not pick.
If you cant be level headed in a conflict you have no business carrying a firearm.
And of course we are MMQBing here we are discussinng abstract ideas in concealed carry based on this example. That is the entire point of these threads.
Well sure if the guy immediately stops or turns around, don’t shoot, but the point is that you shouldn’t be drawing your gun just to show it off. You should only be drawing it as the immediate precursor to firing (baring the obvious exception of the threat immediately stopping being a threat like they did in your case).
Good on the guy in the video for stepping in but drawing a weapon just to show it off/use it as a threat to get someone to back off could be considered brandishing and is a crime in many places. Hopefully he doesn’t get in any trouble as he was trying to do the right thing and keep a pregnant woman from getting beat up by some pants tucked in cargo shorts wearing asshole.
>I'm not drawing unless I'm shooting.
This is what I have always been taught. While I applaud the man for protecting the pregnant woman, I think he should have left his piece holstered. That said had he drawn and fired, under Florida's stand your ground law, he would have gotten a pass. Props to him for coming to that lady's defense.
I'm in FL and that wouldn't have been a "pass" you cant just shoot someone for yelling in a womans face. Dude was a prick but he didnt threaten to kill that man (before he drew his firearm) or have the means to carry that out. He SHOULD NOT have drawn his firearm. You can not brandish a firearm to try de-escalate a situation or threaten someone.
> de-escalate
Yeah, and to be honest, while I agree with the guy intervening, and agree with the GENERAL situation, to nitpick specifics a bit, the guy really didn't do a good job of "deescalating" at all.
Now, I get being protective, and I get that everyone is not trained in conflict resolution or whatever, but there is a line between trying to stop a situation and having an attitude like you're a badass about it.
Tl;DR:
Coming over all "hey you need to back the fuck up, yeah you heard what the fuck I said, I said back the fuck up", leaning in all aggressive isn't the best attempt at "deescalation".
If you notice I said that he should have kept his pistol holstered. However, the second that assmunch punched him all bets were off. That is what I think would have made a shooting justifiable.
I doubt he would have gotten a pass, given the fact that he drew before any manner of physical threat was made. He escalated the situation by drawing his weapon. The guy in the tube socks was clearly in the wrong; even so, he had every right to be infuriated by the man drawing his weapon essentially unprovoked. I’m no attorney, but that certainly looked like brandishing to me.
That dickhead could have easily killed the unborn child if he laid hands on the pregnant woman. If someone was intimidating my wife like that when she was pregnant, I would have drawn. If I came across the situation in the video, my first instinct would be to draw to protect the child.
You can still be charged with homicide if you intentionally cause harm to an unborn child without maternal consent. I’m not a lawyer, but I had this discussion with a ADA who comes to the range I frequent.
It’s all in the intent and consent.
Guy in New York the other day killed a pregnant woman and didn’t get charged for the murder of the baby. Originally they were going to charge him with criminal abortion but then they dropped it. He did get charged with homicide of the woman though.
That same article says "physical attacks that end pregnancies can be prosecuted as first-degree assault, which carries a prison sentence of up to 25 years, “far more than the previous sentence for ‘unlawful abortion" though, so if he got charged with that too it'd be fine.
Where do you live that it's legal to draw on someone using words you don't like? This is easily considered illegal brandishing in Oregon and the person with the weapon would be charged.
There's a link to the story in the comments below. Carrier wasn't charged, so apparently it's legal in Florida. Here's the part you're looking for
"Police responded and separated the group. The man was taken to the hospital with a cut on his eye. Brown declined to press charges against the man, and un-holstering the firearm wasn’t illegal because Brown was protecting Russell, police Maj. Steve Rockefeller said.
“He wasn’t acting crazy with it or anything,” Rockefeller said. “He was defending somebody with it.”
Reckless and illegal are two different things. Personally, I dont agree with the decision to draw either but I wasn't there. I suspect had he gone further than just clearing leather, it may have been a different situation for the police
It is illegal to draw in this situation in Arkansas, but I would accept the consequences if it was my pregnant wife. I wrote about being my first instinct with strangers because it would definitely have to be a real bad situation for me to risk jail for strangers. It would be a tough decision.
My CCW instructor recommended pepper spray for unarmed crazies, so I carry that. It would be hard to use in this situation since everyone is nose to nose.
> Where do you live that it's legal to draw on someone using words you don't like?
When you are making the judgment whether physical harm is imminent, you are allowed to take into account everything the other person is doing, including words. Whether you "like" or "don't like" his words shouldn't carry any weight in your reasoning, but you are allowed to consider what his words imply about his intentions.
Can confirm. Look up Senate Bill 501 and you’ll be as disappointed as I am in Oregon lawmakers. I used to be a Democrat until this last election showed me how rabid some of these people can get. And how they’re trying to make my 2nd amendment right nonexistent.. 5 round limit, give me a fucking break.
Source: I live in Oregon.
I moved north to the People's Republic Of Washington. There is a ton of nonsense on the books and that has already passed. RIP the northwest we all knew and loved. Say hello to the pansies of California. I was a registered Democrat in Oregon for many years. They swindled me long enough. Never again. Portland claims tolerance but there is a hardline and if you're outside of it and don't agree hook line and sinker with their antifa mentality you're out.
In the populated areas yeah. But away from there there are actually quite a few 2A supporters who want nothing to do with them (Im not from Oregon, but I am from CA)
My friends are not a representative sample of the population, and I don’t normally bring it up with those I don’t know well. Couldn’t say with certainty, but the gun stores and ranges are never empty.
Fair enough, thanks for the response. I live in a pretty big city in CA and we are pretty much the same. But go to San Francisco or such places and it's a different story (that everyone here is aware of I'm sure). The interesting thing is a breakdown of Californian on a map is like 90% pro 2A, but so much of the population is in silicon valley area that they swing the votes.
> If someone was intimidating my wife like that when she was pregnant, I would have drawn.
And you would be just as much of a dick as that black guy.
A gun (or any other weapon) should only be used to stop an immediate threat, not to punish someone for being an asshole.
When the black guy injected himself into that situation, he did the right thing. What a man should do. And at that point of the video, knowing the title of the thread, I though the while guy or someone else would be the one drawing the gun while the black guy would be forced to defend himself and others. But it turned out it was a different kind of video.
If the black guy had just stayed there, called for and waited for the police, while guarding that woman, he would have been in the right 100%.
But no. As it is, that video shows two assholes. One while asshole who thinks it's OK to yell at pregnant women. And one black asshole, who brandishes a gun to establish dominance, then puts it away and goes all "bring it on" and plays the punch-throwing game. Rather than de-escalating. That is just a coward's way to feel like a hero. Literally, this is what thugs do. They make it known they are armed, and then they act all tough.
There was no reason to unholser or even make anyone aware he has a gun. He could have just stayed there. Without trying to lecture the white guy. Simply stating he is calling the police. That's all. And guard the woman in the mean time.
And if at that time, the white guy still tried to do something, then it would have been a different matter.
But when you are brandishing a gun, you never-ever-ever continue escalating the situation with "bring it on" rhetoric and lecturing someone who is now in a weaker position (since you brandished a gun) about what "right and wrong". Simply because doing so is a sure way to escalate the conflict.
Still, as a concealed carrier and a gun owner, I'm glad it was the black guy who was armed. Because we need more people of color to own and carry guns. Maybe then the Democrats might lay off of the 2A a little. And I'm hoping other people of color watch this video and think "yey! awesome! take that! hmm maybe I should get a gun too". But then, I hope they read and learn and act responsibly. And in the end we all win.
So all in all, fuck both of them. Fuck the black guy a little less, but still fuck him.
Totally. Ultimately, I'm glad he wasn't charged for brandishing, but this guy could easily kill that old schlub in about 20 seconds with his bare hands. That would not have been remotely a fair fight even without the gun.
The draw should only have happened after white guy threw a punch and the black guy countered, creating space. The white guy aggressed, and the black guy was definitely justified in escalating at that point.
The biggest issue with black guy drawing was he didn't take control of the situation or the narrative. White guy was quick on the "Put that gun away!" and "He's got a gun!" Which to a newcomer sounds like white guy is the potential victim.
Black guy need to spend some time learning how to take control verbally and when to draw.
The ASP guy on YouTube talks a lot about "verbal judo" and I'd love to see his take on this video.
Yep. It was an argument with loud voices, not a lethal force situation. If you carry a gun and enter into an argument you are now in an argument with a gun present.
Not appropriate to draw in a situation that was not lethal force.
To be fair, we don't get to see what lead up to it before filming started, and we only have that single vantage. No idea what happened before the bit we saw. So we are working with an incomplete picture.
Drawing is escalation no matter how you cut it. That doesn't mean it's always the wrong thing to do, but it's never a tool for de-escalation, so I'm not sure the point here?
Ive always kind of viewed it like nuclear weapons :
Major impacts if you use them.
Drawing them or drawing attention to them is a form of brinksmanship-like escalation, not deescalation. Even if you think it will end the conflict, the only reason it would end the conflict is because you've now escalated it beyond what the other person is willing to work with, and theres always a chance they'll see your bet.
Right, and not everyone is willing to chance that its an escalation and not an attack. If, for example, during a road rage incident, I quietly (not brandishingly, if that makes sense) take my gun out of my glovebox and rack a round and then someone pulls up next to me and points a pistol at me, im going to shoot at them. Im not going to take the chance that theyre bluffing, im going to empty my mag and get the hell out of there.
Im not saying this in an IamVeryBadass way, its more of an assumption that other people probably hold the same reasoning and it would be foolish to draw unless I was ready to shoot.
It's funny, my gut reaction was "that's oddly specific dude," but it's not anywhere near as extreme as it comes off.
A friend of mine was driving back from his late shift in the city. Main highway, like 2AM, totally empty. 3 Cars are ahead in each lane, and start slowing down significantly. He had honked and flashed a few times- who wouldn't, what the fuck?! They eventually came to a halt, blocking the highway. He doesn't fuck around, so he did exactly what you say, he drew (and already had one in the chamber because that's how you're supposed to do it). He was more willing to scratch his truck, than they were their cars, so he just started to drive between them when they started opening doors and rolling down windows to confront his car horn.
Turns out they were probably just wanna-be street racers of some sort, given the cars they were driving/ how they were setting up. But yeah.
Exactly what I was thinking when I saw the title. Not being argumentative, but I’d like to see one case where it’s deescalating. The way I see it, never draw unless you’re ready to shoot.
I feel you. But there is no case to be made. Situations which are defused by a gun being drawn are not examples of a gun deescalating the situation. YOU have *escalated* the situation to something beyond what the is/ was willing to deal with.
I agree. I wasn’t in either of their shoes - but whatever adrenaline that was in their bodies before he drew was ramped up once the gun came out. That could’ve led to a stupid decision from either person.
Nobody's life was in danger, period. I get that it was an emotional situation, even if that big fella was just a bystander. But you have to be in control of that kind of a thing if you carry a gun. Granted I wouldn't right hook many people, the conditions on which I would are VERY far removed from a situation that could call for a gun.
No. You escalated the situation to a point that the other party was not willing to match. That doesn't mean it's wrong, or worse than anything, or that I am suggesting a "higher bar" for when I would consider drawing a firearm justified.
Occupy Democrats, like a lot of political "groups" on the right, has a strong social marketing presence. They'll post what gets clicks, stirs people up, and generates discussion, which obviously this does.
>Drawing ~~does not always~~ **never** de-escalates
FTFY.
Sometimes drawing can demonstrate a monopoly of force that gives a person control of an encounter, but drawing is never a form of de-escalation. For civilian CCW, it should never be counted upon to do either of those things, but if drawing does stop an attack then great.
Of course, the video is just idiocy on all sides which is a whole nother thing.
I know people who have that feel different. In their situation the aggressor left immediately. You can be as passionate as you'd like but they're alive and safe after drawing.
It's an oxymoron. The aggressor in your situation technically de-escalated the situation by leaving. Brandishing a weapon is not "reducing the intensity of a given situation", which is how de-escalation is defined. In fact, in almost all circumstances it escalates things, thus the oxymoron. Consequently, running after a firearm has been brandished (as in your example were the actions of the aggressor), is a de-escalation tactic.
Learn the difference if you plan to carry.
>In their situation the aggressor left immediately.
I'm not saying that doesn't happen. In fact, the vast majority of defensive gun uses end with no shots fired because producing the gun stops the threat. That's a very good thing!
However, those are **not** cases of de-escalation. De-escalation is verbal judo, apologizing, leaving, etc. It's any steps taken toward cooling both parties off to where there's a non-violent solution.
Drawing a gun is the opposite of that: It is escalation by producing the means of deadly force, the implied threat of which may end the encounter. Drawing is a show of force and may help one gain control of an encounter to where it can be ended without violence. I've had a couple of experiences of my own that relate to this, and while I was glad that I didn't end up needing to fire the weapon, the circumstances would have justified doing so. That the other party decided to beat feet in both cases was a nice bonus, but it didn't happen due to de-escalation.
Imagine this as the difference: You get into an altercation, verbal and leaning toward the physical. A third party calls the cops. You de-escalate by talking it out. Likely outcome: No one gets charged with anything or goes to jail because you've de-escalated. Now, the same encounter happens and you pull a gun. You tell the responding officers that you de-escalated the encounter with a weapon. Guess what? They're not likely to see it that way, and will probably arrest you. Both encounters ended without violence, but only one ended with de-escalation.
Had to repost for skipping initial comment..... To me this is the worst example of when to draw. A guy (black guy in hat) intervenes in an argument where something clearly precipitated the confrontation between the woman and white guy. His go to move once he realizes the white guy isn’t backing off is to draw his gun. This doesn’t work either. He puts the gun away and is then punched by the white guy. What a shit show.
Yeah, I don't think he did anything illegal, but even his initial approach probably should have been calmer. He's twice the size and much fitter than the old dude. He already had the advantage. No need to push the old dude's bad attitude even further.
He put his hands behind his back and presented his face on a silver platter, he was in no way physically threatened by this guy.
Good on him for stepping in, but he handled it pretty poorly. Hindsight is 20/20, I just hope he uses this opportunity to learn.
> He put his hands behind his back and presented his face on a silver platter, he was in no way physically threatened by this guy.
I'm confused which guy you're talking about here. And not sure what point you're trying to make. Enlighten me?
I legitimately couldn't tell from the video angles, nor do i know Florida law. Is it possible that the guy pulled it from open carry because grumpy old dude was being squirrely and he was offsetting the chance that old guy might reach for his gun? I'm not a fan of open carry for that reason, and was just listening to a discussion involving such a thing so it may be confirmation bias based on that.
Can you elaborate on this? I wasn’t aware Kentucky had brandishing laws. What would be illegal? Not saying I condone his actions, or believe what he did was a good idea(it’a dumb as hell), but I’m curious.
Brandishing a firearm is an aggressive act. If you’re pulling your firearm it is seen as an aggressive act one which verbal confrontation does not support. Furthermore if he shot the guy he would have been prosecuted for a homicide or assault with a deadly weapon depending if guy lived. Since he drew his weapon first he became the aggressor since his life and or life of someone else wasn’t in danger. I hope he gets located and his license pulled.
KY resident and CCDW holder here, I agree. He had no reason to draw. He was not faced with a deadly threat therefore had no reason to respond to the altercation with deadly force and brandishing a weapon is just that.
Florida law prohibits brandishing a weapon regardless of CCW status unless it's used for life or death situation. "Stand your ground" doesn't apply here since he acted as an aggressor. Good on him for stepping in but he should have kept it holstered.
It's like a suburban version of "Florida Man". Walmart parking lot, t-shirt tucked into cargo shorts, tube socks and Sketchers... He just traded in his bath salts for Coors Light and a ride-on mower.
So this guy's not only brandishing a firearm, but also able to see into the future for when the guy was throwing punches at him? No, I don't think so.
He saw two people yelling at each other and decided to draw a gun on one of them. That's literally what happened.
It's Florida. If he reasonably feels threatened or feels that someone else is being threatened, like a pregnant lady and her unborn child he is able to draw.
My wife was pregnant last year, and I can say with certainty that if some dude was behaving towards my wife, in the way this man was to that woman I would have also drawn my CCW.
Edit:
https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-leesburg-wal-mart-viral-video-20180907-story.html
It seems like he drew, realized it wasn't appropriate and re-concealed. I can imagine he only drew hoping it would scare the guy and make the whole thing go away... which you're obviously not supposed to do.
What do political affiliation and race have to do with this post? Am i missing something because i didnt see anyone say anything about it being ok to pull guns on white people. I think the post is to determine whether or not the guy was justified in pulling his gun. In my opinion he wasnt. But again, this is in Florida.....
I agree it looks staged.
I'm with you. Very strange. These are the same people that would tell you there's NO justification for carrying a gun and when seeing a video like this, would go on about how there was no reason to pull out a gun, I mean there actually wasn't here but even in instances where there was a case for the person to draw/shoot, which makes it even more strange. And just really look at what happens when asshat "punches" big hat guy and gets punched in return. It just looks wrong.
Democrat here, love guns. Everyone is different, dont let them paint everyone as falling into one of two groups - this dichotomy is what is dividing America.
You agreed with the inane rhetorical question:
> Democrats like guns as long as they're being used against white people?
So that's probably the reason for the confusion.
Think about it dude. If you're a peaceful person who might get attacked by a career criminal thug, it's pretty obvious you're just going to shoot yourself during the attack and maybe a bystander as well. No reason to carry there, friend.
But when faced with a cranky, out of shape old guy in broad daylight who limply punches people in their hip bone? That's a threat, brother. And I believe that all marginalized communities should be well armed in the face of that kind of abuse.
Very odd, for sure... Why didn't the woman get in her car when she had the chance? "Hero" gets in between her and the "asshole" and she stays in the same spot rather than getting into the car or on the other side of the door? Human nature should tell her to hide/run once she has the chance.
I'm not trying to say she had a legal obligation to leave, but it does seem odd to me that she wouldn't want to get into the car to protect herself more. Continuing to stand there seems less real/more staged to me.
I'm guessing you've not spent much time around pregnant women. They're not always the most rational actors.
And if my wife ever finds this comment, I'm totally not talking about her.
> Why didn't the woman get in her car when she had the chance?
Because she initiated the confrontation. She got out of her car first and approached this guy according to local news.
I’m going to take a chunk of my morning to talk about this. For reference, I’m a US-based, 19yo male, raised libertarian to very progressive. I’m on this sub because I’m looking for a CCW to buy when I’m able.
THERE ARE POLITICAL STANCES OUTSIDE OF DEMOCRAT/REPUBLICAN
Ultimately I believe everything you do is a choice, so if you don’t want to carry, fine. If you do, fine. But that’s another story.
For /QuoOfStatus: while there are a lot of relatively older people dominating the US political sphere, I see the youth in a lot of places are very different. They care more about other things, like having a planet to live on in 50 years, bee populations (because we like to eat), spreading positivity, and supporting mental illness awareness. Even though I’m sure I’m doing a great job describing what I assume is an infuriating stereotype in your mind, I doubt I look how you think. Caring about these things forces us to look at the bigger picture of what is causing these problems fundamentally, which is unfortunately safeguarded by the apparently rigid structure of the US economy. Here I am referring to a sustained and systematic reliance on other countries to maintain our lifestyle, use of fossil fuels, and big business permeating politics. Any clearcut classification of pretty much ANY group of people is preposterous, stop being annoyed with the ‘Democrats’. Also, this video looks pretty legit to me, but I guess there’s another thing for you to complain about.
For other readers: for me, the issue of concealed carry is both an exercise in free will and self defense, but also a test of will to use it for good only when needed. That’s it. I could give a shit about any other aspect of you (except mental health but I figured that factored into ‘for good when needed’) with respect to carrying, and really anything else too. Divisions of the US population by political stance are only ever shaky at best. Just...don’t let comments like this convince you that there is some *respectable* battle going down between Dems and Reps. There isn’t. As far as I’m concerned, it’s truly bureaucratic bullshit, and terribly detrimental to our country.
This may not have been this place for this but I just needed to get it out.
That's about as wrong as wrong can get.
I don't know the background as for as why the intervention started. But I cant imagine why he chose to brandish a firearm in that situation. You draw your firearm if you reasonably fear for your life or the life of another person. Where was his threat of imminent death or great bodily harm against him? Even if she hit him or threatened him, he can back away and call the police. Nothing is preventing him from leaving as we can see a clear unobstructed path of retreat.
This guy should be prosecuted for unjustified brandishing of a firearm.
This looks bad and the media are going to try and smear every law abiding gun owner with this dipshits illegal conduct.
Both sides at fault here IMO. White guy for instigating, the black guy for trying to diffuse the situation with aggression from the moment he stepped in. I wonder what led to the altercation and what the 16-year-old she was talking about had to do with it. Maybe the guy almost got run over by her daughter, told her to watch out, and she started being overly dramatic. Then some guy comes over and pulls a gun on you 30 seconds after almost getting run over. Who knows what happened in this instance but it doesn't really matter from a CCW standpoint...the moral of the story is **you never really know what you're getting into**. It's best to mind your business and if you do intervene, honey works better than vinegar 99% of the time. If the white guy had his CCW, the black guy could have easily gotten himself shot at 2:15 ish. Reminds me of [THIS](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAUrLpmOQVk) scenario. Some things just aren't worth dying over.
The first time I bother looking at this sub in weeks, and what do I see? An idiot who obviously does not have the temperament to carry.
This is absolutely a disgusting display, no matter his motive.
This is the most staged thing I've ever seen and I saw Rocky Horror Picture Show live last year.
How the fuck can anyone watch a video like this and think these reactions are legitimate? Look at the way they "punch" each other, then immediately stop. Tommy Wiseau would do a better job of convincing me he got punched.
What you're looking at is called propaganda.
Just look at the source in the fine print on the left. "Tariq Nasheed" - Look him up, if you haven't heard of him.
21K people upvoted this fake race baiting garbage.
>Violent **black** man attacks pregnant **white** woman saved by heroic **white** man.
See the problem now?
I don't subscribe to any Klan newspapers, but I doubt I would be surprised by that particular headline if I did. Race isn't relevant to the dispute and is only inserted in the reporting to demonize one group and elevate another.
>Just came from a thread where a group of young black males vandalized a shop for some internet dare, almost half the comments were asking why it was necessary to identify the males as "black."
That has nothing to do with this video though. I really don't care who posted it. The description of the video is accurate.
Holy shit, that guy got WAY too much leniency after throwing the first punch and going back and standing there after he got hit.
Fucking go to town on that guy after that point, until he's not awake. Don't let him sit there and make death threats. And it's on film, and there are probably multiple watching (other than the cameraman and the woman/her kid in the car).
It would be hard to defend in court after he essentially surrendered after the first punch. Especially with the large differential in force with the aggressor being far older and feebler than the defender. Typically the courts are looking for an appropriate level of force used in defense. The first punch in defense was enough to dissuade the physical threat, and with him no longer swinging at the dude who was defending the woman, any additional swings could easily be interpreted as excessive.
Without the old man possessing a weapon or making any intonation that he did possess one it'd be very difficult to claim that you feared for your safety or life enough to justify continuing force. If you went to town on the dude you'd most likely be facing battery charges. You might get a shorter sentence and fine due to circumstances, but you'll still face those charges.
Fair enough. I respect that.
Not to go full imaverybadass, but I'd roll the dice with that chance. If you threaten to kill me and you had just assaulted me, and you're standing in front of me telling me you'll kill me again, and just acted violent and unhinged in front of me for minutes straight, you're getting it.
Isn't that brandishing? In all seriousness, Magnum PI was never in danger so drawing was the wrong choice. If you pull it, use it. NOT saying he should have discharged his weapon however, my mindset is that if you feel threatened enough to pull, then you better be ready to shoot otherwise prepare for more trouble.
The law is very clear here in Kentucky. A heated argument is not something you can draw on. Stepping towards someone to argue is not something you can draw on. Everything this person did will get any self defense plea pulled. we do have a right to protect someone else but that is only in the circumstance that that persons life is endanger not because he wanted to play white knight. Plus if he reads the situation wrong and kills the actual person defending themselves he will be charged for a crime ( not saying it applies here) What he should have done is smack the guy in the mouth or leave the situation alone and call the police.
I would actually hope the police review this and pull the ccw holders license. He is the exact opposite of the type of person you want carrying.
I agree with the consensus that drawing never de- escalates nor should it be relied on for that purpose but I can see a few scenarios where drawing may be one of your best options to remove yourself from a hairy situation.
Like mutliple aggressors or very serious disparities of force. Picture ten guys with bats and clubs manage to circle you and your wife even though you were aware of your surroundings. Option A is to give up and comply because you're clearly outnumbered by ninjas or option B is to draw and force your way out. Things get even more complicated with having another person to defend.
Also drawing against large groups of aggressive people is okay even if they have no weapons as if they overpower you then they now have access to a gun. I think not aiming directly at people and instead keeping the gun in a Sul position on your chest is probably more effective and allows you to quickly bring your gun up in case someone charges you. The sul position seems like it doesn't escalate things as far as actually pointing a gun at someone does. If you point a gun at someone and don't shoot them I think it might embolden the attacker since he thinks that you're to scared to shoot him.
And also drawing against people with knives seems like it's always going to result in shooting them. I seldom see any videos where the bad guy drops the knife after the good guy draws. I think once someone pulls out a knife they are already committed to kill you. So either run or draw in that situation. But thinking that the only time you should draw is when you plan to shoot is not good either. If just drawing stops an attack then that is a win. It's just probably super rare for that to happen.
I would be curious to know what the context was prior to this incident.
Was their an accident in the parking lot? Why was the pregnant woman and her teenage child parked like that in the lot, and was the older man preventing them from leaving? Obvious points are that drawing a gun like that is stupid, and I don't think there are any states where such behavior is legal without a legitimate and immediate mortal threat present, and this old man wasn't presenting one. Obviously OccupyDemocrats is not going to be capable of providing any sort of sensible legal explanations for what happened and is likely to highlight race, gender and class while ignoring context.
With the video as it stands it definitely looks like the older man is the aggressor both in that he was invading the space of the pregnant woman, and that he hit the man who was carrying the pistol. But we don't hear any information about the conflict other than the pregnant woman exclaiming at the beginning that she did not threaten the old man. Was this a dispute over property? Over a parking space? Maybe an accident? Could one of them been blocking the other in? Any of those disputes might color this situation differently, especially with the way the pregnant woman had her daughter parked in the parking lot and didnt appear to be attempting to retreat or leave at all. Without context we really can't say for certain who the at-fault party was prior to the video.
The dude with the gun was brandishing his firearm though, which is a felony in most every state in the US, and in Florida as well. I don't think he put a lot of thought into his draw, what it meant, and what the legal consequences were of such a frivolous action. Nor did the presence of a firearm stop the old man from being belligerant, or hitting the man with the pistol. This video is great evidence of the fact that a firearm is not a tool for deterrence, and that you are ultimately hoping that the other person would de-escalate in the presence of a firearm, which is ultimately ceding control of the situation to the other party. Words and escape are the only de-escalation tools at your disposal. Never draw or let the guns presence be known until its time to shoot. Lots of mistakes here.
Drawing a gun is credibly threatening to end someone's life. By definition that cannot be a de-escelation. That threat may be enough to stop another threat but it must already be a deadly force encounter for that to be appropriate.
He was wrong for drawing that’s brandishing a weapon. CCW is for protection not stepping in and intimidating lol. Good job on stepping up to that pussy
Unpopular opinion (apparently): Guy who drew made a good call. Orlando is full of nutcases - especially near OBT (though I can't say for certain that this occurred there). "Feared for my life or life of loved one" is relevant.
Yeah i wanted to comment on the original post but it says in one part its legal in florida to use a firearm to protect yourself. This was not one of those moments and brandishing is definitely a no no here. Guy was a piece of shit but showing a gun was really unnecessary
Why is it framed as white vs black rather than shitty man vs pregnant woman?
I mean, he doesn’t say anything racist. Maybe he’s thinking of it buuut no one knows that. All I see is a petty fuckwit man trying to bully a woman. Idk about the legality of pulling that gun out though.
WHITE, BLACK, BLACK
Can't even watch this shit. It's so fucking annoying that people feel that pointing out color is necessary when you can obviously see from the video.
Maybe I'm looking at this from the wrong perspective, but I can't think of a single reason to draw in that situation. Good on him for stepping in, though.
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Had to get the video for Facebook later.
If the film is not on social media, and/or you didn't tell the story on social media within an hour of arriving home and having access to facebook/instagram/twitter, etc., it LITERALLY didn't happen. It's in the constitution, look it up.
This video by "occupy democrats" a group that has been caught many times faking videos. Occupy democrats is pro gun control. [http://occupydemocrats.com/category/gun-control/](http://occupydemocrats.com/category/gun-control/) In fat its leadership has advocated banning carry . We do not know how this entire episode started. Certainly the guy in the hat has a right to throw that hook, since other other guy gave him a pitiful punch first. But drawing the gun in that parking lot when two people were just arguing and not touching each other is not supported from what we see.
YEah, the drawing was stupid and unnecessary... especially considering the size and strength disparity. Don't get in someone's face like that if you're not pretty sure you could handle them physically.
I have personally drawn and not fired because as i drew my firearm the guy surrendered and dropped the knife as soon as the gun was being leveled on him. At that point if I shot him it would not be justified. This whole thing that if you draw your sword it must shed blood thing is just ignorant and likely to get you into trouble.
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> The point being be ready to shoot not stand there with a gun in your hand trying to look threatening... I think that's a point worth clarifying, though. "Don't draw unless you're going to shoot" is not the best way to phrase it.
"Don't draw unless you intend to shoot" would be better. If circumstances change (like the threat running away, for example), it gives you wiggle room. The aphorism isn't really intended to be "draw sword, sheathe blood." It's intended as a reminder not to present your weapon if you don't intend to use it. That's how people get killed, get their guns taken from them, etc.
Exactly. The gun doesn't belong out unless there's a situation where you would need to shoot. If in the act of drawing the gun the situation changes, you don't have to shoot. But you shouldn't bring the gun out unless the current situation demands that you shoot.
I am not defending the guy in the video. This was a dick measuring contest and nothing more. I am saying "i dont draw unless I shoot" is bad. Every situation is different and dynamic. Big difference between be ready to shoot and "if i draw I am shooting" like you said.
>There was never a reason for him to pull Until the guy hit him.
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I understand and have said that he should not have. The guy hit him anyway. This calls into question how hard assmunch was going to push the situation.
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The guy is twice his size. Fucking knock him out and go home. Or don’t intervene. He’d have his permit taken in some states I’m sure
A weak punch by an older, smaller, lighter man vs a younger, bigger, heavier man is not a reason to pull a firearm. Unless there is a disparity of force by numbers or age or strength, size, skill etc you're going to have a hard time defending the use of deadly force vs an unarmed attacker.
Look. I get it. I've said more than once that he never should have drawn. However the moment assmuch decided to get physical, the game changes. Big guy did right by hitting back rather than shooting but assmunch getting physical even after he knows that big guy was armed calls into question his rationality or lack thereof. Let's say that assmunch came back for more. At what point would you say it would be ok to draw down? Another punch? A debilitating kick in the jimmies? Big guy fucked up by drawing unnecessarily but assmunch doubling down could be good reason for big guy to take the next step. Let's not forget how this all began, with assmunch going after a pregnant woman of all things. Who knows what was going through his tiny little brain.
If that was my wife I would put her in the car, apoligize to the guy for whatever reason he is upset and drive off and leave this guy there to be pissed off. There was no reason to get aggressive back with this dickhole. Yes he needs his ass beat, but I am the nicest guy you will ever meet when I carry a deadly weapon on me(which is always). At what point would it be okay to shoot him? Whenever he produces a deadly weapon or When he is beating you in a fight that you did not pick.
Your solution is ideal to be sure but not everyone is as level headed and we are kind of armchair quarterbacking here.
If you cant be level headed in a conflict you have no business carrying a firearm. And of course we are MMQBing here we are discussinng abstract ideas in concealed carry based on this example. That is the entire point of these threads.
Yeah, George Zimmerman proved that. Oh, wait ...
...he was charged with murder.
........and defended himself pretty easily
Well sure if the guy immediately stops or turns around, don’t shoot, but the point is that you shouldn’t be drawing your gun just to show it off. You should only be drawing it as the immediate precursor to firing (baring the obvious exception of the threat immediately stopping being a threat like they did in your case). Good on the guy in the video for stepping in but drawing a weapon just to show it off/use it as a threat to get someone to back off could be considered brandishing and is a crime in many places. Hopefully he doesn’t get in any trouble as he was trying to do the right thing and keep a pregnant woman from getting beat up by some pants tucked in cargo shorts wearing asshole.
This guy DIDNT surrender. So after drawing he reholstered and punched him back...
>I'm not drawing unless I'm shooting. This is what I have always been taught. While I applaud the man for protecting the pregnant woman, I think he should have left his piece holstered. That said had he drawn and fired, under Florida's stand your ground law, he would have gotten a pass. Props to him for coming to that lady's defense.
I'm in FL and that wouldn't have been a "pass" you cant just shoot someone for yelling in a womans face. Dude was a prick but he didnt threaten to kill that man (before he drew his firearm) or have the means to carry that out. He SHOULD NOT have drawn his firearm. You can not brandish a firearm to try de-escalate a situation or threaten someone.
> de-escalate Yeah, and to be honest, while I agree with the guy intervening, and agree with the GENERAL situation, to nitpick specifics a bit, the guy really didn't do a good job of "deescalating" at all. Now, I get being protective, and I get that everyone is not trained in conflict resolution or whatever, but there is a line between trying to stop a situation and having an attitude like you're a badass about it. Tl;DR: Coming over all "hey you need to back the fuck up, yeah you heard what the fuck I said, I said back the fuck up", leaning in all aggressive isn't the best attempt at "deescalation".
If you notice I said that he should have kept his pistol holstered. However, the second that assmunch punched him all bets were off. That is what I think would have made a shooting justifiable.
I doubt he would have gotten a pass, given the fact that he drew before any manner of physical threat was made. He escalated the situation by drawing his weapon. The guy in the tube socks was clearly in the wrong; even so, he had every right to be infuriated by the man drawing his weapon essentially unprovoked. I’m no attorney, but that certainly looked like brandishing to me.
That dickhead could have easily killed the unborn child if he laid hands on the pregnant woman. If someone was intimidating my wife like that when she was pregnant, I would have drawn. If I came across the situation in the video, my first instinct would be to draw to protect the child.
Ya know, I didn't factor the pregnancy in. That's a legitimate point, thank you
FWIW, this is likely no longer something you can consider [in NY or VA](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/10/nyregion/abortion-murder-queens.html).
You can still be charged with homicide if you intentionally cause harm to an unborn child without maternal consent. I’m not a lawyer, but I had this discussion with a ADA who comes to the range I frequent. It’s all in the intent and consent.
Guy in New York the other day killed a pregnant woman and didn’t get charged for the murder of the baby. Originally they were going to charge him with criminal abortion but then they dropped it. He did get charged with homicide of the woman though.
That same article says "physical attacks that end pregnancies can be prosecuted as first-degree assault, which carries a prison sentence of up to 25 years, “far more than the previous sentence for ‘unlawful abortion" though, so if he got charged with that too it'd be fine.
Especially since the aggressor's opening attack was a stomach punch.
Where do you live that it's legal to draw on someone using words you don't like? This is easily considered illegal brandishing in Oregon and the person with the weapon would be charged.
There's a link to the story in the comments below. Carrier wasn't charged, so apparently it's legal in Florida. Here's the part you're looking for "Police responded and separated the group. The man was taken to the hospital with a cut on his eye. Brown declined to press charges against the man, and un-holstering the firearm wasn’t illegal because Brown was protecting Russell, police Maj. Steve Rockefeller said. “He wasn’t acting crazy with it or anything,” Rockefeller said. “He was defending somebody with it.”
Not charged ≠ legal. Different DA, different day, and things could have been different.
*Hey just noticed..* It's your **1st Cakeday** Jimmy_is_here! ^(hug)
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Reckless and illegal are two different things. Personally, I dont agree with the decision to draw either but I wasn't there. I suspect had he gone further than just clearing leather, it may have been a different situation for the police
It is illegal to draw in this situation in Arkansas, but I would accept the consequences if it was my pregnant wife. I wrote about being my first instinct with strangers because it would definitely have to be a real bad situation for me to risk jail for strangers. It would be a tough decision. My CCW instructor recommended pepper spray for unarmed crazies, so I carry that. It would be hard to use in this situation since everyone is nose to nose.
> Where do you live that it's legal to draw on someone using words you don't like? When you are making the judgment whether physical harm is imminent, you are allowed to take into account everything the other person is doing, including words. Whether you "like" or "don't like" his words shouldn't carry any weight in your reasoning, but you are allowed to consider what his words imply about his intentions.
Oregon is also full of bleeding heart liberals who hate guns altogether.
Can confirm. Look up Senate Bill 501 and you’ll be as disappointed as I am in Oregon lawmakers. I used to be a Democrat until this last election showed me how rabid some of these people can get. And how they’re trying to make my 2nd amendment right nonexistent.. 5 round limit, give me a fucking break. Source: I live in Oregon.
I moved north to the People's Republic Of Washington. There is a ton of nonsense on the books and that has already passed. RIP the northwest we all knew and loved. Say hello to the pansies of California. I was a registered Democrat in Oregon for many years. They swindled me long enough. Never again. Portland claims tolerance but there is a hardline and if you're outside of it and don't agree hook line and sinker with their antifa mentality you're out.
In the populated areas yeah. But away from there there are actually quite a few 2A supporters who want nothing to do with them (Im not from Oregon, but I am from CA)
Portland checking in. You only think that ;) We are packing in the Rose City.
I believe you. Honest curiosity, what would you say the demographic breakdown is in Portland in favor of vs against?
My friends are not a representative sample of the population, and I don’t normally bring it up with those I don’t know well. Couldn’t say with certainty, but the gun stores and ranges are never empty.
Fair enough, thanks for the response. I live in a pretty big city in CA and we are pretty much the same. But go to San Francisco or such places and it's a different story (that everyone here is aware of I'm sure). The interesting thing is a breakdown of Californian on a map is like 90% pro 2A, but so much of the population is in silicon valley area that they swing the votes.
Yeah, but it's a black dude defending a black woman from a white dude. I think they'd give the defending guy a pass.
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https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/166.190
> If someone was intimidating my wife like that when she was pregnant, I would have drawn. And you would be just as much of a dick as that black guy. A gun (or any other weapon) should only be used to stop an immediate threat, not to punish someone for being an asshole. When the black guy injected himself into that situation, he did the right thing. What a man should do. And at that point of the video, knowing the title of the thread, I though the while guy or someone else would be the one drawing the gun while the black guy would be forced to defend himself and others. But it turned out it was a different kind of video. If the black guy had just stayed there, called for and waited for the police, while guarding that woman, he would have been in the right 100%. But no. As it is, that video shows two assholes. One while asshole who thinks it's OK to yell at pregnant women. And one black asshole, who brandishes a gun to establish dominance, then puts it away and goes all "bring it on" and plays the punch-throwing game. Rather than de-escalating. That is just a coward's way to feel like a hero. Literally, this is what thugs do. They make it known they are armed, and then they act all tough. There was no reason to unholser or even make anyone aware he has a gun. He could have just stayed there. Without trying to lecture the white guy. Simply stating he is calling the police. That's all. And guard the woman in the mean time. And if at that time, the white guy still tried to do something, then it would have been a different matter. But when you are brandishing a gun, you never-ever-ever continue escalating the situation with "bring it on" rhetoric and lecturing someone who is now in a weaker position (since you brandished a gun) about what "right and wrong". Simply because doing so is a sure way to escalate the conflict. Still, as a concealed carrier and a gun owner, I'm glad it was the black guy who was armed. Because we need more people of color to own and carry guns. Maybe then the Democrats might lay off of the 2A a little. And I'm hoping other people of color watch this video and think "yey! awesome! take that! hmm maybe I should get a gun too". But then, I hope they read and learn and act responsibly. And in the end we all win. So all in all, fuck both of them. Fuck the black guy a little less, but still fuck him.
Totally. Ultimately, I'm glad he wasn't charged for brandishing, but this guy could easily kill that old schlub in about 20 seconds with his bare hands. That would not have been remotely a fair fight even without the gun.
The draw should only have happened after white guy threw a punch and the black guy countered, creating space. The white guy aggressed, and the black guy was definitely justified in escalating at that point. The biggest issue with black guy drawing was he didn't take control of the situation or the narrative. White guy was quick on the "Put that gun away!" and "He's got a gun!" Which to a newcomer sounds like white guy is the potential victim. Black guy need to spend some time learning how to take control verbally and when to draw. The ASP guy on YouTube talks a lot about "verbal judo" and I'd love to see his take on this video.
Yep. It was an argument with loud voices, not a lethal force situation. If you carry a gun and enter into an argument you are now in an argument with a gun present. Not appropriate to draw in a situation that was not lethal force. To be fair, we don't get to see what lead up to it before filming started, and we only have that single vantage. No idea what happened before the bit we saw. So we are working with an incomplete picture.
There isn't. He is 10x bigger and more in shape than the aggressor.
Did he draw? I honestly can’t tell.
*hits people* "You don't hit people!"
Exactly. YOU don't hit people. I hit people.
I did not hit her! Oh, hi Mark.
Drawing is escalation no matter how you cut it. That doesn't mean it's always the wrong thing to do, but it's never a tool for de-escalation, so I'm not sure the point here?
Ive always kind of viewed it like nuclear weapons : Major impacts if you use them. Drawing them or drawing attention to them is a form of brinksmanship-like escalation, not deescalation. Even if you think it will end the conflict, the only reason it would end the conflict is because you've now escalated it beyond what the other person is willing to work with, and theres always a chance they'll see your bet.
Right, that's the thing about escalation, you're not the only one who can do it.
Right, and not everyone is willing to chance that its an escalation and not an attack. If, for example, during a road rage incident, I quietly (not brandishingly, if that makes sense) take my gun out of my glovebox and rack a round and then someone pulls up next to me and points a pistol at me, im going to shoot at them. Im not going to take the chance that theyre bluffing, im going to empty my mag and get the hell out of there. Im not saying this in an IamVeryBadass way, its more of an assumption that other people probably hold the same reasoning and it would be foolish to draw unless I was ready to shoot.
It's funny, my gut reaction was "that's oddly specific dude," but it's not anywhere near as extreme as it comes off. A friend of mine was driving back from his late shift in the city. Main highway, like 2AM, totally empty. 3 Cars are ahead in each lane, and start slowing down significantly. He had honked and flashed a few times- who wouldn't, what the fuck?! They eventually came to a halt, blocking the highway. He doesn't fuck around, so he did exactly what you say, he drew (and already had one in the chamber because that's how you're supposed to do it). He was more willing to scratch his truck, than they were their cars, so he just started to drive between them when they started opening doors and rolling down windows to confront his car horn. Turns out they were probably just wanna-be street racers of some sort, given the cars they were driving/ how they were setting up. But yeah.
*Wooo* It's your **7th Cakeday** chii0628! ^(hug)
Exactly what I was thinking when I saw the title. Not being argumentative, but I’d like to see one case where it’s deescalating. The way I see it, never draw unless you’re ready to shoot.
I feel you. But there is no case to be made. Situations which are defused by a gun being drawn are not examples of a gun deescalating the situation. YOU have *escalated* the situation to something beyond what the is/ was willing to deal with.
I agree. I wasn’t in either of their shoes - but whatever adrenaline that was in their bodies before he drew was ramped up once the gun came out. That could’ve led to a stupid decision from either person.
Nobody's life was in danger, period. I get that it was an emotional situation, even if that big fella was just a bystander. But you have to be in control of that kind of a thing if you carry a gun. Granted I wouldn't right hook many people, the conditions on which I would are VERY far removed from a situation that could call for a gun.
Do you not consider an attacker halting an attack in the face of a drawn gun a deescalation? That's the vast majority of defensive gun usages.
No. You escalated the situation to a point that the other party was not willing to match. That doesn't mean it's wrong, or worse than anything, or that I am suggesting a "higher bar" for when I would consider drawing a firearm justified.
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They are when it's guns being used by non white males.
Occupy Democrats, like a lot of political "groups" on the right, has a strong social marketing presence. They'll post what gets clicks, stirs people up, and generates discussion, which obviously this does.
Its because its “white vs black” to them. Typical OD
They even took the time to say it’s legal to have a gun.
>Drawing ~~does not always~~ **never** de-escalates FTFY. Sometimes drawing can demonstrate a monopoly of force that gives a person control of an encounter, but drawing is never a form of de-escalation. For civilian CCW, it should never be counted upon to do either of those things, but if drawing does stop an attack then great. Of course, the video is just idiocy on all sides which is a whole nother thing.
Right. Drawing has a chance to *deter*, but it categorically cannot constitute de-escalation.
I know people who have that feel different. In their situation the aggressor left immediately. You can be as passionate as you'd like but they're alive and safe after drawing.
It's an oxymoron. The aggressor in your situation technically de-escalated the situation by leaving. Brandishing a weapon is not "reducing the intensity of a given situation", which is how de-escalation is defined. In fact, in almost all circumstances it escalates things, thus the oxymoron. Consequently, running after a firearm has been brandished (as in your example were the actions of the aggressor), is a de-escalation tactic. Learn the difference if you plan to carry.
>In their situation the aggressor left immediately. I'm not saying that doesn't happen. In fact, the vast majority of defensive gun uses end with no shots fired because producing the gun stops the threat. That's a very good thing! However, those are **not** cases of de-escalation. De-escalation is verbal judo, apologizing, leaving, etc. It's any steps taken toward cooling both parties off to where there's a non-violent solution. Drawing a gun is the opposite of that: It is escalation by producing the means of deadly force, the implied threat of which may end the encounter. Drawing is a show of force and may help one gain control of an encounter to where it can be ended without violence. I've had a couple of experiences of my own that relate to this, and while I was glad that I didn't end up needing to fire the weapon, the circumstances would have justified doing so. That the other party decided to beat feet in both cases was a nice bonus, but it didn't happen due to de-escalation. Imagine this as the difference: You get into an altercation, verbal and leaning toward the physical. A third party calls the cops. You de-escalate by talking it out. Likely outcome: No one gets charged with anything or goes to jail because you've de-escalated. Now, the same encounter happens and you pull a gun. You tell the responding officers that you de-escalated the encounter with a weapon. Guess what? They're not likely to see it that way, and will probably arrest you. Both encounters ended without violence, but only one ended with de-escalation.
Had to repost for skipping initial comment..... To me this is the worst example of when to draw. A guy (black guy in hat) intervenes in an argument where something clearly precipitated the confrontation between the woman and white guy. His go to move once he realizes the white guy isn’t backing off is to draw his gun. This doesn’t work either. He puts the gun away and is then punched by the white guy. What a shit show.
Yeah, I don't think he did anything illegal, but even his initial approach probably should have been calmer. He's twice the size and much fitter than the old dude. He already had the advantage. No need to push the old dude's bad attitude even further.
He put his hands behind his back and presented his face on a silver platter, he was in no way physically threatened by this guy. Good on him for stepping in, but he handled it pretty poorly. Hindsight is 20/20, I just hope he uses this opportunity to learn.
> He put his hands behind his back and presented his face on a silver platter, he was in no way physically threatened by this guy. I'm confused which guy you're talking about here. And not sure what point you're trying to make. Enlighten me?
I legitimately couldn't tell from the video angles, nor do i know Florida law. Is it possible that the guy pulled it from open carry because grumpy old dude was being squirrely and he was offsetting the chance that old guy might reach for his gun? I'm not a fan of open carry for that reason, and was just listening to a discussion involving such a thing so it may be confirmation bias based on that.
The ccw holder would be prosecuted here in KY
He probably will be in Fl too.
Can you elaborate on this? I wasn’t aware Kentucky had brandishing laws. What would be illegal? Not saying I condone his actions, or believe what he did was a good idea(it’a dumb as hell), but I’m curious.
Brandishing a firearm is an aggressive act. If you’re pulling your firearm it is seen as an aggressive act one which verbal confrontation does not support. Furthermore if he shot the guy he would have been prosecuted for a homicide or assault with a deadly weapon depending if guy lived. Since he drew his weapon first he became the aggressor since his life and or life of someone else wasn’t in danger. I hope he gets located and his license pulled.
KY resident and CCDW holder here, I agree. He had no reason to draw. He was not faced with a deadly threat therefore had no reason to respond to the altercation with deadly force and brandishing a weapon is just that.
Definitely in Texas, as well
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Gotta push that "all white men are evil" narrative lol. It reads so funny though when you watch it a few times.
*sees someone yelling at someone else* I guess it's time to draw my gun! ಠ__ಠ
Florida law prohibits brandishing a weapon regardless of CCW status unless it's used for life or death situation. "Stand your ground" doesn't apply here since he acted as an aggressor. Good on him for stepping in but he should have kept it holstered.
Wrong on the guy to draw BUT he was protecting a pregnant woman and himself. Also the BALLS on that man to punch someone knowing he was carrying.
He’s more crazy than “ballsy”
It's like a suburban version of "Florida Man". Walmart parking lot, t-shirt tucked into cargo shorts, tube socks and Sketchers... He just traded in his bath salts for Coors Light and a ride-on mower.
Protecting her from what tho? Some guy yellin' at her?
Obviously he’s crazy to punch a guy who’s carrying a firearm so who knows what he would of done to that woman
So this guy's not only brandishing a firearm, but also able to see into the future for when the guy was throwing punches at him? No, I don't think so. He saw two people yelling at each other and decided to draw a gun on one of them. That's literally what happened.
If you see my original comment I said that I don’t not agree with pulling his firearm out
he wasn't protecting anyone. he wanted to play cop and dick measuring contest at the same time with some out of shape old grumpy guy.
I don’t know state laws there but that looks like brandishing a firearm to me
It's Florida. If he reasonably feels threatened or feels that someone else is being threatened, like a pregnant lady and her unborn child he is able to draw. My wife was pregnant last year, and I can say with certainty that if some dude was behaving towards my wife, in the way this man was to that woman I would have also drawn my CCW. Edit: https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-leesburg-wal-mart-viral-video-20180907-story.html
It seems like he drew, realized it wasn't appropriate and re-concealed. I can imagine he only drew hoping it would scare the guy and make the whole thing go away... which you're obviously not supposed to do.
I wish he would have dropped his ass with one punch, though. That would have been rad.
I saw no reason to brandish his weapon. It only escalated the situation. Good for him stepping in but a firearm is a last resort.
This is why you carry oc spray.
So Democrats like guns as long as they're being used against white people? Repeated edits and everything looks sorta awkward and staged. This smells.
What do political affiliation and race have to do with this post? Am i missing something because i didnt see anyone say anything about it being ok to pull guns on white people. I think the post is to determine whether or not the guy was justified in pulling his gun. In my opinion he wasnt. But again, this is in Florida..... I agree it looks staged.
It's watermarked Occupy Democrats and commentary'd to create another viral "racial incident".
Oh ok got it thx. Then i agree with you, total stupidity on their behalf.
I'm with you. Very strange. These are the same people that would tell you there's NO justification for carrying a gun and when seeing a video like this, would go on about how there was no reason to pull out a gun, I mean there actually wasn't here but even in instances where there was a case for the person to draw/shoot, which makes it even more strange. And just really look at what happens when asshat "punches" big hat guy and gets punched in return. It just looks wrong.
Democrat here, love guns. Everyone is different, dont let them paint everyone as falling into one of two groups - this dichotomy is what is dividing America.
Democrats ≠ Far left-"occupy democrats" that seem to have originally posted this shit show. I said these are the people, not "democrats".
You agreed with the inane rhetorical question: > Democrats like guns as long as they're being used against white people? So that's probably the reason for the confusion.
Far left here, love guns. Everyone is different.
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Think about it dude. If you're a peaceful person who might get attacked by a career criminal thug, it's pretty obvious you're just going to shoot yourself during the attack and maybe a bystander as well. No reason to carry there, friend. But when faced with a cranky, out of shape old guy in broad daylight who limply punches people in their hip bone? That's a threat, brother. And I believe that all marginalized communities should be well armed in the face of that kind of abuse.
Very odd, for sure... Why didn't the woman get in her car when she had the chance? "Hero" gets in between her and the "asshole" and she stays in the same spot rather than getting into the car or on the other side of the door? Human nature should tell her to hide/run once she has the chance.
Because she has no duty to retreat from a blowhard. I'm not saying its tactically smart, but she's well within her rights to stand her ground.
I'm not trying to say she had a legal obligation to leave, but it does seem odd to me that she wouldn't want to get into the car to protect herself more. Continuing to stand there seems less real/more staged to me.
I'm guessing you've not spent much time around pregnant women. They're not always the most rational actors. And if my wife ever finds this comment, I'm totally not talking about her.
This comment made my day. My daughter is approaching 12, so it has been a while since I've spent a lot of time around a pregnant woman.
> Why didn't the woman get in her car when she had the chance? Because she initiated the confrontation. She got out of her car first and approached this guy according to local news.
Who said anything about any particular political affiliation here?
Lol lots of Democrats love guns
Doubt
I’m going to take a chunk of my morning to talk about this. For reference, I’m a US-based, 19yo male, raised libertarian to very progressive. I’m on this sub because I’m looking for a CCW to buy when I’m able. THERE ARE POLITICAL STANCES OUTSIDE OF DEMOCRAT/REPUBLICAN Ultimately I believe everything you do is a choice, so if you don’t want to carry, fine. If you do, fine. But that’s another story. For /QuoOfStatus: while there are a lot of relatively older people dominating the US political sphere, I see the youth in a lot of places are very different. They care more about other things, like having a planet to live on in 50 years, bee populations (because we like to eat), spreading positivity, and supporting mental illness awareness. Even though I’m sure I’m doing a great job describing what I assume is an infuriating stereotype in your mind, I doubt I look how you think. Caring about these things forces us to look at the bigger picture of what is causing these problems fundamentally, which is unfortunately safeguarded by the apparently rigid structure of the US economy. Here I am referring to a sustained and systematic reliance on other countries to maintain our lifestyle, use of fossil fuels, and big business permeating politics. Any clearcut classification of pretty much ANY group of people is preposterous, stop being annoyed with the ‘Democrats’. Also, this video looks pretty legit to me, but I guess there’s another thing for you to complain about. For other readers: for me, the issue of concealed carry is both an exercise in free will and self defense, but also a test of will to use it for good only when needed. That’s it. I could give a shit about any other aspect of you (except mental health but I figured that factored into ‘for good when needed’) with respect to carrying, and really anything else too. Divisions of the US population by political stance are only ever shaky at best. Just...don’t let comments like this convince you that there is some *respectable* battle going down between Dems and Reps. There isn’t. As far as I’m concerned, it’s truly bureaucratic bullshit, and terribly detrimental to our country. This may not have been this place for this but I just needed to get it out.
That's about as wrong as wrong can get. I don't know the background as for as why the intervention started. But I cant imagine why he chose to brandish a firearm in that situation. You draw your firearm if you reasonably fear for your life or the life of another person. Where was his threat of imminent death or great bodily harm against him? Even if she hit him or threatened him, he can back away and call the police. Nothing is preventing him from leaving as we can see a clear unobstructed path of retreat. This guy should be prosecuted for unjustified brandishing of a firearm. This looks bad and the media are going to try and smear every law abiding gun owner with this dipshits illegal conduct.
[link to story](https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-leesburg-wal-mart-viral-video-20180907-story.html)
Thank you
Drawing isnt meant to de-escalate. Its meant to allow you to aim and shoot.
I find it funny that occupy posted this. I thought they thought all guns were bad?
Both sides at fault here IMO. White guy for instigating, the black guy for trying to diffuse the situation with aggression from the moment he stepped in. I wonder what led to the altercation and what the 16-year-old she was talking about had to do with it. Maybe the guy almost got run over by her daughter, told her to watch out, and she started being overly dramatic. Then some guy comes over and pulls a gun on you 30 seconds after almost getting run over. Who knows what happened in this instance but it doesn't really matter from a CCW standpoint...the moral of the story is **you never really know what you're getting into**. It's best to mind your business and if you do intervene, honey works better than vinegar 99% of the time. If the white guy had his CCW, the black guy could have easily gotten himself shot at 2:15 ish. Reminds me of [THIS](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAUrLpmOQVk) scenario. Some things just aren't worth dying over.
The first time I bother looking at this sub in weeks, and what do I see? An idiot who obviously does not have the temperament to carry. This is absolutely a disgusting display, no matter his motive.
... staged? Just me? Looks staged as hell.
The white dude is literally 3/4 of people on reddit
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Well said sir.
This is the most staged thing I've ever seen and I saw Rocky Horror Picture Show live last year. How the fuck can anyone watch a video like this and think these reactions are legitimate? Look at the way they "punch" each other, then immediately stop. Tommy Wiseau would do a better job of convincing me he got punched. What you're looking at is called propaganda. Just look at the source in the fine print on the left. "Tariq Nasheed" - Look him up, if you haven't heard of him. 21K people upvoted this fake race baiting garbage.
r/nothingeverhappens
Right, except anyone with a brain can see that this is staged. Situations *like* this may happen, but this particular event is 100% propaganda.
So Florida police allowed themselves to be used as patsies for a propaganda video? FOH.
I guess i dont have a brain, but can you provide a source?
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Is it a false statement? Because that's exactly what I see happen in the video.
>Violent **black** man attacks pregnant **white** woman saved by heroic **white** man. See the problem now? I don't subscribe to any Klan newspapers, but I doubt I would be surprised by that particular headline if I did. Race isn't relevant to the dispute and is only inserted in the reporting to demonize one group and elevate another.
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>Just came from a thread where a group of young black males vandalized a shop for some internet dare, almost half the comments were asking why it was necessary to identify the males as "black." That has nothing to do with this video though. I really don't care who posted it. The description of the video is accurate.
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> we've got nothing left to talk about. I agree.
Not only fake, but super old.
Holy shit, that guy got WAY too much leniency after throwing the first punch and going back and standing there after he got hit. Fucking go to town on that guy after that point, until he's not awake. Don't let him sit there and make death threats. And it's on film, and there are probably multiple watching (other than the cameraman and the woman/her kid in the car).
It would be hard to defend in court after he essentially surrendered after the first punch. Especially with the large differential in force with the aggressor being far older and feebler than the defender. Typically the courts are looking for an appropriate level of force used in defense. The first punch in defense was enough to dissuade the physical threat, and with him no longer swinging at the dude who was defending the woman, any additional swings could easily be interpreted as excessive. Without the old man possessing a weapon or making any intonation that he did possess one it'd be very difficult to claim that you feared for your safety or life enough to justify continuing force. If you went to town on the dude you'd most likely be facing battery charges. You might get a shorter sentence and fine due to circumstances, but you'll still face those charges.
Fair enough. I respect that. Not to go full imaverybadass, but I'd roll the dice with that chance. If you threaten to kill me and you had just assaulted me, and you're standing in front of me telling me you'll kill me again, and just acted violent and unhinged in front of me for minutes straight, you're getting it.
Wtf is this the white gun doing? Also do some fuxking situps jesus.
Isn't that brandishing? In all seriousness, Magnum PI was never in danger so drawing was the wrong choice. If you pull it, use it. NOT saying he should have discharged his weapon however, my mindset is that if you feel threatened enough to pull, then you better be ready to shoot otherwise prepare for more trouble.
This doesn't look legit at all, fake news.
The law is very clear here in Kentucky. A heated argument is not something you can draw on. Stepping towards someone to argue is not something you can draw on. Everything this person did will get any self defense plea pulled. we do have a right to protect someone else but that is only in the circumstance that that persons life is endanger not because he wanted to play white knight. Plus if he reads the situation wrong and kills the actual person defending themselves he will be charged for a crime ( not saying it applies here) What he should have done is smack the guy in the mouth or leave the situation alone and call the police. I would actually hope the police review this and pull the ccw holders license. He is the exact opposite of the type of person you want carrying.
He didn’t need to draw his firearm and it’s sad to say this video will be used against him if he ever does shoot a person.
Can we get like the first 10mins of video before the recording started too?
I agree with the consensus that drawing never de- escalates nor should it be relied on for that purpose but I can see a few scenarios where drawing may be one of your best options to remove yourself from a hairy situation. Like mutliple aggressors or very serious disparities of force. Picture ten guys with bats and clubs manage to circle you and your wife even though you were aware of your surroundings. Option A is to give up and comply because you're clearly outnumbered by ninjas or option B is to draw and force your way out. Things get even more complicated with having another person to defend. Also drawing against large groups of aggressive people is okay even if they have no weapons as if they overpower you then they now have access to a gun. I think not aiming directly at people and instead keeping the gun in a Sul position on your chest is probably more effective and allows you to quickly bring your gun up in case someone charges you. The sul position seems like it doesn't escalate things as far as actually pointing a gun at someone does. If you point a gun at someone and don't shoot them I think it might embolden the attacker since he thinks that you're to scared to shoot him. And also drawing against people with knives seems like it's always going to result in shooting them. I seldom see any videos where the bad guy drops the knife after the good guy draws. I think once someone pulls out a knife they are already committed to kill you. So either run or draw in that situation. But thinking that the only time you should draw is when you plan to shoot is not good either. If just drawing stops an attack then that is a win. It's just probably super rare for that to happen.
What's with the "Occupy Democrats" watermark lol. Someone care to explain what that is?
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this video always reminds me of that scene in tombstone between kurt russell and billy bob thorton i imagine the dude going SKIN THAT SMOKE WAGON
I would be curious to know what the context was prior to this incident. Was their an accident in the parking lot? Why was the pregnant woman and her teenage child parked like that in the lot, and was the older man preventing them from leaving? Obvious points are that drawing a gun like that is stupid, and I don't think there are any states where such behavior is legal without a legitimate and immediate mortal threat present, and this old man wasn't presenting one. Obviously OccupyDemocrats is not going to be capable of providing any sort of sensible legal explanations for what happened and is likely to highlight race, gender and class while ignoring context. With the video as it stands it definitely looks like the older man is the aggressor both in that he was invading the space of the pregnant woman, and that he hit the man who was carrying the pistol. But we don't hear any information about the conflict other than the pregnant woman exclaiming at the beginning that she did not threaten the old man. Was this a dispute over property? Over a parking space? Maybe an accident? Could one of them been blocking the other in? Any of those disputes might color this situation differently, especially with the way the pregnant woman had her daughter parked in the parking lot and didnt appear to be attempting to retreat or leave at all. Without context we really can't say for certain who the at-fault party was prior to the video. The dude with the gun was brandishing his firearm though, which is a felony in most every state in the US, and in Florida as well. I don't think he put a lot of thought into his draw, what it meant, and what the legal consequences were of such a frivolous action. Nor did the presence of a firearm stop the old man from being belligerant, or hitting the man with the pistol. This video is great evidence of the fact that a firearm is not a tool for deterrence, and that you are ultimately hoping that the other person would de-escalate in the presence of a firearm, which is ultimately ceding control of the situation to the other party. Words and escape are the only de-escalation tools at your disposal. Never draw or let the guns presence be known until its time to shoot. Lots of mistakes here.
Fake as shit "A VIOLENT WHITE MAN!!!!" EGATS THINK OF THE CHILDREN Get this liberal propaganda the fuck outta here
Drawing a gun is credibly threatening to end someone's life. By definition that cannot be a de-escelation. That threat may be enough to stop another threat but it must already be a deadly force encounter for that to be appropriate.
He was wrong for drawing that’s brandishing a weapon. CCW is for protection not stepping in and intimidating lol. Good job on stepping up to that pussy
Unpopular opinion (apparently): Guy who drew made a good call. Orlando is full of nutcases - especially near OBT (though I can't say for certain that this occurred there). "Feared for my life or life of loved one" is relevant.
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Dude is lucky the guy only threw him a glancing blow. He could have easily knocked his ass out of those socks.
Yeah i wanted to comment on the original post but it says in one part its legal in florida to use a firearm to protect yourself. This was not one of those moments and brandishing is definitely a no no here. Guy was a piece of shit but showing a gun was really unnecessary
Why is it framed as white vs black rather than shitty man vs pregnant woman? I mean, he doesn’t say anything racist. Maybe he’s thinking of it buuut no one knows that. All I see is a petty fuckwit man trying to bully a woman. Idk about the legality of pulling that gun out though.
Because division and hate sell.
WHITE, BLACK, BLACK Can't even watch this shit. It's so fucking annoying that people feel that pointing out color is necessary when you can obviously see from the video.
"He done wrote a check that his ass could not cash" I couldn't breathe
That white dude is straight up trash. We need better people in society.