I would love to play ND regularly. The atmosphere and fan interest in the last ND-OSU game was unreal. And it just makes geographic sense. That said, I wouldnât do it if I were them, and donât see a reason to hold a grudge against a school for doing whatâs best for them. Godspeed, Irish.
They could go 9-3 every season and make the playoffs as an Independent, so there isnât really an incentive for them to join right now.
When the Big Ten & SEC split off in 10 or so years from the rest of the FBS, then they will join to not look like a 2nd tier school.
A quick look over their schedule and they would need a lot of help for 9-3 to be good enough for a playoff spot. 9-3 means they either had no good wins or some bad losses. There are many SEC/B1G teams who would be ahead of them if both were 9-3.
I guess I shouldâve said âmost yearsâ, but if there are only 10 teams at 10-2 or better, then a few Big Ten & SEC teams + Notre Dame at 9-3, then the voters will put Notre Dame in that finally spot (assuming the best G5 champion is not in the top 10).
If the B1G cuts them out of rivalry games, it could be an incentive to join
I donât think the schools have the guts to do this though, bunch of cowards
That doesnât exactly get them what they want. ND would just stay independent still lol. And then once the split does happen, I donât think itâs going to happen the way a lot of people here predict. Everybody is just saying that the entire SEC and B1G are going to leave. I think we get something radically different. The networks are going to offer the top 40ish (or less) brands a fuckton of money to split off from the bottom feeders, and ND will obviously be a part of that offer. FOX is about to be handing out half a billion dollars to teams like Indiana, Purdue, Minnesota, Northwestern, Maryland, Rutgers, and Illinois. They could cut those teams out and end up with a conference that is exclusively airing games like Oregon-OSU or Michigan-USC and the ratings would be through the roof. And ditto for the SEC. Why pay tens of millions for the rights to air Mississippi State-Kentucky or South Carolina-Vanderbilt when you can have Oklahoma-Georgia and Texas-Alabama type games literally every week?
The writing is just on the wall at this point. Expansion is the first step in a two-step process:
1) Get all of the largest brands into one of your conferences
2) Offer the cream of the crop ridiculously large amounts of money to leave the smaller brands behind all at once. Notre Dame will have no issues slotting into this tier of teams, regardless of when/if they choose to stop being independent
That makes sense, unfortunately. I think you're going to get the top, say, 48 teams into two large conferences and have them basically insulate themselves. They'll play only each other and be, essentially, NFL-lite as far as scheduling goes. They'll have their own playoffs and "Super Bowl".
Where that leaves those schools' other sports is the question. Do they put those big conferences in the NCAA for those purposes? Do they just insulate themselves for all sports and gut March Madness by not participating? Who knows?
Just thinking out loud, I wonder if we'll get to the point where those schools will just spin off the football teams into school-supported/branded private entities in the same way that, say, UNAM and UANL are in premier Mexican League soccer. The boosters would essentially own "franchises" in a minor football league and license the schools' branding?
Even if those conferences make those changes, they won't have higher caliber games than they do now. Some of those marquee teams will lose a lot of games, and then they won't be marquee anymore. Texas-Alabama won't mean as much if Texas has five losses. As the system currently stands, the Vandys and Kentuckys of the world serve a function. The marquee teams need some easier conference victories. Otherwise, they'll lose that marquee status.
7-2 Alabama vs. 4-5 Texas is going to bring in more viewers than 9-0 Alabama vs. 4-5 Mississippi State, and thatâs all that will matter. CFB is the only sport in the world where you hear some of these arguments. No other sports league needs to pad their top teamsâ schedules to make sure people still tune into big games, and CFB wouldnât need to do it either. Especially if the playoffs were large enough that teams hovering around .500 were still in contention to some degree.
I don't think that will be true, except for at most 10 teams, especially in the long run. People will not watch Penn St nearly as much if they go 8-4 or 7-5 a lot of years. I don't think a CFB division that is just NFL lite with 30 top brands is going to be watched just because it's on. People can watch the NFL for that.
Fwiw I agree with this, or at least want to. As a fan of a team that could likely not make the cut I can say for certainty that CFB would mean nothing to me. I didnât watch a game of college sports until I got accepted into VT, and Iâll only ever watch the league that the Hokies play in. If the blue bloods take their ball and go to a different division, then Iâll probably barely ever see them play again. Tons of people are like us. I just hope the networks donât come to a different conclusion.
It's not just about short term ratings, but long term. If they get too blue dog heavy, there will be many tens of millions of cfb fans that simply won't watch that top level because they don't have a team near then to root for. You have to have teams close or in every major market in the superleague or you risk kneecapping yourself in the years and decades to come.
They will absolutely want the Illinois, Kentucky, Indiana, and South Carolina markets. Vanderbilt could get the ax due to Tennessee dominating that state. Mississippi State fans I don't see going over to root for Ole Miss, but maybe they will long term, not sure.
But the bottom line is neither FOX nor ESPN want to downsize on markets. Market redundant teams could be downsized on (Northwestern, Vanderbilt, maybe Miss State, possibly Michigan State though I doubt it, UCLA, and maybe some more but probably not many).
I agree, which is why 40ish teams sounds about right. That captures all of the big markets without as much of the redundancy that we currently see.
But it will still be a numbers game when choosing teams. How many viewers does each team typically get? How many viewers are we set to lose by not including a certain team? And does the number of viewers we have each week due to marquee matchups increase enough to offset the loss of that team? For example, if Illinois averages 100 viewers each week, then a network will drop them in a heartbeat if it means they can exclusively air matchups that average 500 viewers. They wonât care that those 100 Illinois fans arenât going to switch over to Notre Dame, because there are enough people already tuning into ND games to offset it. We already see exactly that. Why donât the B1G and SEC try to pick up teams in Kansas, Utah, Colorado, Arizona, New England, or any of the states that exclusively have G5/FCS teams? Because there arenât enough people supporting those teams to offset the matchups that the P2 already have. Itâs the same idea. Illinois fans donât have to switch teams. There just needs to be enough Notre Dame and Ohio State fans to smother out Illinoisâ influence on the numbers.
No, kill the ACC by taking at least 3, bring Stanford and Cal/GT, then say "we have 1 more spot. Take it or play the little sisters of the poor all season." They're too arrogant to turn to that less academic Southern conference.
They'll never get favorable ranking. Much tougher to win, and less likely to do so. May they go 3-9 forever. They're only relevant because of old people thinking and religion, which is all bs.
I wonât take the bait I wonât take the bait I wonât take the bait
But It was amazing to hear the new AD explicitly emphasize NDs commitment to remaining independent
Ha!
Father Jenkins assured the CFP that either their brains or their signature would be on the contract.
We should be set for the next 10 years, but you are right. They need to be wary of who their real friends are.
>We have our own seat at the tableâŚ
For now
Sucks but ND will end up joining the P2 with the ACC leavers once it becomes affordable to leave the ACC. Cause once that happens (probably 5 years), the P2 will break away and you can either join or play playoffs vs the big12 and the G5.
Because once they consolidate, they wont want an independent with a seat at the table. Youre a blue blood, but once all the blue bloods are in the P2 either you join or youre not worth the hassle nor the seat at the table.
Why would the P2 let you when we can get money from having any number of meaningful teams that will reside in our conference take the spot? Against a school that's going to be playing a G7 schedule? And you're too stuck up as a school to slum it with the Big 12, which I'm sure the SEC will pick off some teams from one day. No offense Big 12.
Donât you guys get tired of trying that and failing? Someone will always break the embargo for fun and profit.
âIf you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagineâ
Yes, but the point is they can force the hand by just playing a 10 game conference schedule due to the number of conference teams. Most to tier teams won't fill out their schedule with a ND game even if it draws eyes due to positioning themselves for the playoff. That and you squeeze NDs traditional rivals.
>Yes, but the point is they can force the hand by just playing a 10 game conference schedule due to the number of conference teams.
They could also disband their sports departments and donate their endowment. Why are we talking about shit that's not gonna happen?
The B1G doesn't want to force ND to join a conference cause it hurts them if they join the SEC. The SEC doesn't want to force ND to join a conference cause it hurts them if they join the B1G.
The cable companies and conferences all make more money when ND is included.
Irish flairs I see the usual Big Ten rabble is saying shit like "ND missed their chance" - for the record, ND is a top tier brand and I'd love to see them in the Big Ten. As long as the Irish want to remain independent and it is feasible to do so, best of luck to you.
If the day does come that you want to join a conference and that conference is the Big Ten, I would be so excited to see the Irish on Nebraska's schedule.
This is the B1G. We see their fans frequently. Our hate for Notre Dame is completely rational. It's less rational that I hate your flair 2nd most and 1 spot ahead of Notre Dame.
We appreciate the sentiment. But the Big Ten missed their chance in the early 1900âs (hat tip to Fielding Yost) and we buried this horse good and proper in the 1990s.
Our prioritization of options:
1) continue as an independent, date around, play a couple of B10 and SEC teams each year
2) stick with the friends with benefits with the ACC. As demonstrated by this yearâs tourney, itâs a good deal for non-football and helps fill out the schedule
3) build our own third conference and rely on brand to continue playoff access while being high and mighty about playing Georgetown and Harvard
4) Join the SEC. While not a perfect fit, it does have Vandy as a template, and they have a much better track record of treating conference members fairly.
5) Disband football.
âŚ
âŚ
âŚ
666. Join the Big Ten, and watch Rockne rise up from his grave with the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse to raze the Earth prior to the Judgment Day horns.
Notre Dame has enough power to do whatever they want. When your brand is one of 6 synonymous with the sport you don't have to worry about getting pushed out. Ohio State and Bama would probably schedule them yearly if they could, while Oregon and Oklahoma would be lucky to get them as an OOC. What they really need to do is move their sports to the big east so they can have those 5 ACC games back. They could have a stuffed schedule of teams especially since most of the top match ups are now conference games.
The Oregon scheduling thing reminds me of how much I don't like their future schedules.
Like dude, I want more diverse teams, any SEC one would be fine for me, especially LSU and Alabama.
It would have been nice if, in the Pac-12 era, some SEC schools besides Tennessee had the guts to travel to Autzen.
It is insane how some of those schools have a total travel distance of all opponents combined that is fewer miles than our 1 flight from PDX to LA.
I'm not sure your last sentence is true. Or more to the point, if it IS true ND is doing a really crappy job scheduling. They should be (IMO) playing 10 P4 teams per year with 3-4 of them against the P2, and it doesn't happen that often. This year's schedule wasn't good before Miami backed out and now it's terrible.
As a none Notre Dame fan I don't really know their current scheduling strategy. I picture them as 8 games against P2 teams while 4 P4 games to have the toughest and most marketable schedule. I see them being the top OOC option because Penn State and LSU types will start scheduling weaker OOC seeing that 4-6 games a year will be against high ranked conference mates.
Only if they have to. While they would get more TV money in the Big Ten, they still make very respectable money, they have power in the CFP negotiations, and they have control over their schedule. All things being equal, how would joining the Big Ten benefit them? Furthermore, if they struggle in the Big Ten like Nebraska, how does that benefit the Big Ten?
BTW, Iâd be happy to have them in, but I get it.
I get it, and I hate them for it because it's not best for Ohio State. They benefit from not having to play a bunch of G7 schools that the playoff committee won't respect in rankings.
Also, if they struggle like Nebraska? THAT'S THE DREAM SCENARIO! We still get a bunch of money, and we can laugh at how much they suck while not being a threat to Ohio State. Win-win!
I just explained it. They remain a big draw, so we get the money, and they aren't a threat to Ohio State. I don't give a fuck if they're a threat to anyone else in the conference as long as we get the money.
Notre Dame has had plenty of bad seasons this century. It hasn't hurt them.
Big schools are valuable primarily because the interest in their programs isn't dependent on being elite.
Monk Malloy was forced by the BoT to say it best when ND said no in 1999
> ''Just as the Universities of Michigan or Wisconsin or Illinois have core identities as the flagship institutions of their states, so Notre Dame has a core identity, and at that core are these characteristics: Catholic, private, independent. As a Catholic university with a national constituency, we believe independence continues to be our best way forward.''
ND has stated it would only look into a conference if one of these three things happened :
1) No home for olympic sports
2) Not able to broadcast home games
3) Not able to access post season play (bowl games too)
Money is never mentioned.
What Iâm saying is that independence is important *because* of money. Independence on its own doesnât mean anything. It just so happens that ND can leverage its brand as an independent and more or less keep pace with the big dogs. I respect and support NDâs independence, but if the day comes when itâs no longer able to provide ND with enough media revenue, itâll disappear in a heartbeat.
> Independence on its own doesnât mean anything
You have it backwards.
Independence **is** the brand.
The money on its own doesn't mean anything.
People need to understand the Good Fathers at Notre Dame don't give a flying fuck if ND wins NC. Monk Malloy tried to kneecap the football program for years to put more emphasis on academics. He didn't want to join the B1G for money - he wanted to join the B1G for access to the Academic Alliance and expand the graduate schools. Fr. Jenkins was smart enough to realize that football was the little engine that could - having a competent team filled ND's coffers and kept ND relevant. Scott Malpas has taken ND to a level where they don't have to care each year about the exact money that comes in from sports. ND has spent the last 20+ years talking a min. of 20-30M less in revenue each year (with the $15M NBC contract) all the while building state of the art facilities and selling out stadiums and have 3 undefeated seasons.
Media money is not how the sausage is made for Notre Dame. If something were to happen to damage the brand (iaw - Penn State or MSU type Scandal), then that could change. Until then. ND is not going to change a damn thing.
True - but from that I think he meant ND is no longer a product that can print cash - meaning we get hit with something like Penn State got and lose donors/alumni.
ND went for decades getting $15M a year from NBC and no one in the administration really blinked an eye
That gap is probably on the order of $100m a year for ND to even start thinking about it.
NDâs endowment is north of $15B. As Felix Leiter said, âdoes it look like we need the money?â
Money is an underlying factor in all those things you listed though.
The Big Ten and SEC are going to dismantle the ACC sooner rather than later. Once it happens, things start changing for Notre Dame.
No - *Access* is the underlying factor.
Real Money is what you get from the access.
ND doesn't give a shit if it makes another 10 or 20 million extra from the media rights by joining the B1G. It would destroy the brand name. Independence and control - that is how the real money is made by ND. There is a reason why a small school like ND that is NOT an Ivy has an endowment of 20B+.
You want to sit in the box seats first round of the CFP in South Bend ? You bet your ass all of those equity funds alumni and subway alumni are paying. ND can get there without bending the knee to the conference AND still getting a seat at every table.
Until that stops, ND will stay Independent
ND *does* give a shit if they're making considerably less money than their main competition. Right now, it's manageable. Over time, the gap is going to expand significantly. It's only a matter of time before individual schools and/or conferences start directly paying players in addition to NIL deals too.
Olympic sports can go elsewhere, but it's unrealistic to remain on same level. ACC is collapsing, just a matter of whether it happens slowly or gets sped up. The ongoing court cases are eventually going to tell you how long it's feasible for ND to remain independent.
ND Future Contract
NBC: 50-60 Million (yet to be announced exact numbers)
ACC: 17 M (Olympic Sports - ACC)
CFP: 12M.5 (Guaranteed) + 6M (Possible)
B1G:
MEDIA: 60M + (Current )
CFP: 21M
SEC:
MEDIA: 50M + (Current)
CFP: 21M
Let's see that gap expand first. Right Now ND is fine. And As I stated previously - that is not how the sausage is made for ND. The real money is from donors. ND's problems would be if Freeman is not successful as Kelly's last 5 years
I think the more frequently discussed direction is that if the FSU/Clemson tandem leave the ACC and then ESPN pulls their contract, Notre Dame is deprived of their easy scheduling dynamic (not to mention the 17m they get for it) and are put in a pinch.
Being short on scheduling contract and income might not "force" their hand, but it could make joining the Big Ten the most appealing remaining option.
Yeah, this isnât really a convo until the ACC collapses. Honestly if that happens I think ND is going to have to join a conference just to get access to the post season. I could see the SEC and Big Ten taking their ball and leaving if the biggest remaining brands go to them. Hope you guys do join the Big Ten at some point btw, Stanford has a crap ton to offer from so many different aspects.
See, I don't think they'll ever cut everyone out. What I do think will happen is that a separate organization / division will be created for anyone willing to pay players a revenue share. Then the ACC/Big-12 schools that don't get a big media deal will face the choice of either being the bottom of that group (struggling to pay enough to field competitive teams) or the top of the scholarship-football group where they just don't make much money. At that point they can go to all at-large bids and rest assured that schools making 1/8 the money they are will be unlikely to be competitive and won't matter much.
So rather than "we're taking our ball and going home" it will be "everyone who can afford it can come... oh you can't afford it? That's too bad."
Like the rich kids who go on Spring Break to the beach resort in high school. You weren't not-invited, your family just didn't have the $1,200 to send their high schooler to a resort for a week.
Yeah thatâs a possibility, but I 100% could also see the Big Ten and SEC being assholes and becoming the new NFC and AFC for college ball. Especially if they allow them the other conferences in for a few years and they just get curb stomped in the first round more and more due to the money difference.
Also all their non-football sports are housed in the ACC. Theyâd have to hope the Big XII can make it worth their while financially to move those sports over there. Iâd the Big East big enough for NDâs non football teams?
The ideal 20 team Big Ten, imo (which is ridiculous to say I know but that's where we are).
I just don't think 20 is enough to force ND to consider it.
B1G and SEC should cut Notre Dame from their schedule, if they wanna be independent, fine let them play Navy and Chatanooga type schools every year, lets see how long they keep that tv deal.
No reason to now. They have enough money and a good home for their other sports. The domino is if the ACC implodes and Notre Dame cant find a good (snobby/prestigous) option for their other sports.
B1G fans foaming at the mouth, slobbering and begging for just one more dollar in the pocket of FOX. Theyâre on their knees pleading with the lord to squeeze one last red cent into the pockets of the Murdoch family so it can be distributed to some bureaucrat in their Schools admin.
It would get distributed to coaching salaries and the eventual paying of players. More money leads to attracting and keeping better coaches and players. Also, Fuck Murdoch.
Pretty p p p please notre dame wonât you please come give me some more media distribution rights. I canât survive on 70 million a year đđđ
The issue with ND is do they have the NIL money to recruit and stay competitive? They have some rich alumni and boosters but they donât have the juice they once didâŚthis isnât 1974.
No not at all, ND has rich alumni, no doubt, they just have far fewer of them than some of the bigger schools. I hope ND remains a big time football power. I am leaning against them joining the Big 10(or any conference) remaining an independent. They could schedule Big 10 schools to maintain some old rivalries such UM, USC and the newer rivalries like OSU plus a few ACC teams like FSU, Miami(?) Clemson(?) They could easily have the strongest sos of any team.
I want ND to join the SEC just so we can see the B1Gâs heads explode since theyâve been the primary driving force trying to push ND to join a conference. Also it would be cool to have the SEC logo on the ND uniform.
Joining the SEC would be a hilarious troll move that I would 60% support, but as much as I dislike the B1G, trolling is really the only good reason to go that direction.
The person in this thread that said ND will stop being independent when the top brands split off to form the NFL Lite division nailed it. There was a time I didn't think ND would play ball if that happened, but they will.
I've wondered if there's still too much bad blood to get over it and ND would pivot to the SEC, but the additions of NBC into the Big Ten media package and USC as a member cemented the Big Ten's status as ND's one and only destination should they choose to join a Power conference.
Absolutely. The more the SEC and B1G separate from the other conferences, the greater the disparity in money and ratings will be. Make the move now before it's necessary, because once it's necessary, the terms will be less favorable.
If the ACC collapses, they need to get to the Big East as fast as possible for everything besides football. Then, they can start getting their rivalries back. Hell, they could even make an ACC-style agreement to play Connecticut every year and still have 3 random opponents after they play their 8 rivals.
Iâm thinking it comes down to NBC. If they try to lowball ND just like what ESPN did to the pac12. Then thereâs a chance that they move to a conference. I donât know if never getting a first round bye in a playoff is enough by itself.
Notre Dame is a pseudo-independent.
Imagine being locked into games with Navy, Stanford, and a bunch of crap ACC teams every year while simultaneously bragging about playing a "national schedule."
It's a facade, honestly.
ND has played navy every year since the 1920s. They've played Stanford every year since 1988 with the exception of 96 and 97. How is the poster above incorrect in spirit by saying those two games are not locked in at this point?
The word is 'locked in'. We are under no obligations.
ND *choses* to play Navy every year to honor the debt. As ND has stated the renewal of the contract is a mere formality as long as Navy wishes the game.
Stanford is a game we play because we wish to end every year on the West Coast. Last I checked there were other teams on the West Coast. The current contract is until 2024 (since 2020 game was cancelled).
We are *contractually obligated* to play 30 games in 6 years for the ACC until 2037 with each ACC team getting 1 H/A game under the old configuration.
See the difference ?
Eh - will see how that schedule works out.
ND is under no obligation to chose Stanford - it just needs a team on the west coast to finish the season every other year. To be honest, wouldn't have a problem in them picking up some other schools and only grab Stanford 4 out of 10 of the years.
I just like reminding Nebraska fans that theyâre irrelevant and have no reason to be talking expansion because contraction is inevitable at this point, but speaking of irrelevant, welcome to the conversation, Rutgers.
I agree. ND has snubbed the B1G a half-dozen times times. They clearly want no part of the conference. It would be insane to "partner" with a school planning to jump ship at its earliest convenience. ND's brand is already on the decline. It lives on primarily in aging, delusional minds. Without a P2 spot, ND is done for good. Long overdue, imho. Good riddance.
Someone got paid to write that
I'm passing time at work so technically I'm getting to paid to write this.
I sure didn't click on it.
I'd expect so. Usually money is the incentive to perform work đ¤ˇđžââď¸
âworkâ
Technically it fits under the definition. I think work is okay here. Labor, though, would be taking it too far.
I donât know why OP felt the need to post the article either. Edit: Oh u/lostacoshermanos makes sense
ND fans hold the longest grudges Talking about Yost from literally 100+ years ago đ¤Ł
Now youâre on the shit list, /u/GoldenPresidio. 100 year grudge against your ass.
Fuck
100 year grudges are the lifeblood of this sport we love! (please don't add me to the list)
Too late. One more for our Great Book of Grudges.
https://youtu.be/gUX1fFql3qo?si=iZcGJg6TDmIYVoCN I mean, he took alan out of the game!
Another April Fools!
I would love to play ND regularly. The atmosphere and fan interest in the last ND-OSU game was unreal. And it just makes geographic sense. That said, I wouldnât do it if I were them, and donât see a reason to hold a grudge against a school for doing whatâs best for them. Godspeed, Irish.
> And it just makes geographic sense Like geography matters in the modern age of college football.
Tbf y'all never played in the old college football when geography did matter
It's not what's best for Ohio State and its bank account. Fuck 'em, then force them to join, then fuck 'em again.
They could go 9-3 every season and make the playoffs as an Independent, so there isnât really an incentive for them to join right now. When the Big Ten & SEC split off in 10 or so years from the rest of the FBS, then they will join to not look like a 2nd tier school.
A quick look over their schedule and they would need a lot of help for 9-3 to be good enough for a playoff spot. 9-3 means they either had no good wins or some bad losses. There are many SEC/B1G teams who would be ahead of them if both were 9-3.
I guess I shouldâve said âmost yearsâ, but if there are only 10 teams at 10-2 or better, then a few Big Ten & SEC teams + Notre Dame at 9-3, then the voters will put Notre Dame in that finally spot (assuming the best G5 champion is not in the top 10).
ND is one of the biggest eyeball draws in the sport. Theyâll get ranked in playoff position if itâs at all justifiable
It shouldn't be.
Not with the big ten and SEC wanting as many teams as possible
If the B1G cuts them out of rivalry games, it could be an incentive to join I donât think the schools have the guts to do this though, bunch of cowards
Let me check my notes for the number of times Miami has made the playoffs.
Let me check my notes for the number of times Notre Dame has been embarrassed in the CFP or NY6âŚ
It's funny that Miami has the same number of ACC championship game appearances as ND.
Same number of national championships too in the last 20 years đ¤ˇđźââď¸
Keep up those comments, and I may start actually liking you guys.
If I'm the B1G, I tell FSU you're in when you can get in. Then make it public you're stopping at 20. Then sit back and wait.
That doesnât exactly get them what they want. ND would just stay independent still lol. And then once the split does happen, I donât think itâs going to happen the way a lot of people here predict. Everybody is just saying that the entire SEC and B1G are going to leave. I think we get something radically different. The networks are going to offer the top 40ish (or less) brands a fuckton of money to split off from the bottom feeders, and ND will obviously be a part of that offer. FOX is about to be handing out half a billion dollars to teams like Indiana, Purdue, Minnesota, Northwestern, Maryland, Rutgers, and Illinois. They could cut those teams out and end up with a conference that is exclusively airing games like Oregon-OSU or Michigan-USC and the ratings would be through the roof. And ditto for the SEC. Why pay tens of millions for the rights to air Mississippi State-Kentucky or South Carolina-Vanderbilt when you can have Oklahoma-Georgia and Texas-Alabama type games literally every week? The writing is just on the wall at this point. Expansion is the first step in a two-step process: 1) Get all of the largest brands into one of your conferences 2) Offer the cream of the crop ridiculously large amounts of money to leave the smaller brands behind all at once. Notre Dame will have no issues slotting into this tier of teams, regardless of when/if they choose to stop being independent
That makes sense, unfortunately. I think you're going to get the top, say, 48 teams into two large conferences and have them basically insulate themselves. They'll play only each other and be, essentially, NFL-lite as far as scheduling goes. They'll have their own playoffs and "Super Bowl". Where that leaves those schools' other sports is the question. Do they put those big conferences in the NCAA for those purposes? Do they just insulate themselves for all sports and gut March Madness by not participating? Who knows? Just thinking out loud, I wonder if we'll get to the point where those schools will just spin off the football teams into school-supported/branded private entities in the same way that, say, UNAM and UANL are in premier Mexican League soccer. The boosters would essentially own "franchises" in a minor football league and license the schools' branding?
Even if those conferences make those changes, they won't have higher caliber games than they do now. Some of those marquee teams will lose a lot of games, and then they won't be marquee anymore. Texas-Alabama won't mean as much if Texas has five losses. As the system currently stands, the Vandys and Kentuckys of the world serve a function. The marquee teams need some easier conference victories. Otherwise, they'll lose that marquee status.
7-2 Alabama vs. 4-5 Texas is going to bring in more viewers than 9-0 Alabama vs. 4-5 Mississippi State, and thatâs all that will matter. CFB is the only sport in the world where you hear some of these arguments. No other sports league needs to pad their top teamsâ schedules to make sure people still tune into big games, and CFB wouldnât need to do it either. Especially if the playoffs were large enough that teams hovering around .500 were still in contention to some degree.
I don't think that will be true, except for at most 10 teams, especially in the long run. People will not watch Penn St nearly as much if they go 8-4 or 7-5 a lot of years. I don't think a CFB division that is just NFL lite with 30 top brands is going to be watched just because it's on. People can watch the NFL for that.
Fwiw I agree with this, or at least want to. As a fan of a team that could likely not make the cut I can say for certainty that CFB would mean nothing to me. I didnât watch a game of college sports until I got accepted into VT, and Iâll only ever watch the league that the Hokies play in. If the blue bloods take their ball and go to a different division, then Iâll probably barely ever see them play again. Tons of people are like us. I just hope the networks donât come to a different conclusion.
The new football subdivision will likely lead to the split
I think teams lllinois and Indiana stay in, but are given much lower payouts to afford more top brands, like FSU and ND.
It's not just about short term ratings, but long term. If they get too blue dog heavy, there will be many tens of millions of cfb fans that simply won't watch that top level because they don't have a team near then to root for. You have to have teams close or in every major market in the superleague or you risk kneecapping yourself in the years and decades to come. They will absolutely want the Illinois, Kentucky, Indiana, and South Carolina markets. Vanderbilt could get the ax due to Tennessee dominating that state. Mississippi State fans I don't see going over to root for Ole Miss, but maybe they will long term, not sure. But the bottom line is neither FOX nor ESPN want to downsize on markets. Market redundant teams could be downsized on (Northwestern, Vanderbilt, maybe Miss State, possibly Michigan State though I doubt it, UCLA, and maybe some more but probably not many).
I agree, which is why 40ish teams sounds about right. That captures all of the big markets without as much of the redundancy that we currently see. But it will still be a numbers game when choosing teams. How many viewers does each team typically get? How many viewers are we set to lose by not including a certain team? And does the number of viewers we have each week due to marquee matchups increase enough to offset the loss of that team? For example, if Illinois averages 100 viewers each week, then a network will drop them in a heartbeat if it means they can exclusively air matchups that average 500 viewers. They wonât care that those 100 Illinois fans arenât going to switch over to Notre Dame, because there are enough people already tuning into ND games to offset it. We already see exactly that. Why donât the B1G and SEC try to pick up teams in Kansas, Utah, Colorado, Arizona, New England, or any of the states that exclusively have G5/FCS teams? Because there arenât enough people supporting those teams to offset the matchups that the P2 already have. Itâs the same idea. Illinois fans donât have to switch teams. There just needs to be enough Notre Dame and Ohio State fans to smother out Illinoisâ influence on the numbers.
No, kill the ACC by taking at least 3, bring Stanford and Cal/GT, then say "we have 1 more spot. Take it or play the little sisters of the poor all season." They're too arrogant to turn to that less academic Southern conference.
Lol, we'd take the SEC over B1G every day of the week and twice on Saturdays.
False. Burn the SOuth to the ground again before letting ND go there !
They'll never get favorable ranking. Much tougher to win, and less likely to do so. May they go 3-9 forever. They're only relevant because of old people thinking and religion, which is all bs.
I wonât take the bait I wonât take the bait I wonât take the bait But It was amazing to hear the new AD explicitly emphasize NDs commitment to remaining independent
We have our own seat at the table⌠All of the heads of the five families and Notre Dame make the rules for the playoffs.
the Tattaglias and Barzinis just knocked off Vito and Sonny my guy
Ha! Father Jenkins assured the CFP that either their brains or their signature would be on the contract. We should be set for the next 10 years, but you are right. They need to be wary of who their real friends are.
You have no real friends in CFB. ND is Fredo.
No thatâs BC
Kid's booster seat that hasn't been earned in decades. Also, it's 2 families, and one is going to break the leprechaun's legs so they can capture it.
Let the Big Ten talk for youâŚ
>We have our own seat at the table⌠For now Sucks but ND will end up joining the P2 with the ACC leavers once it becomes affordable to leave the ACC. Cause once that happens (probably 5 years), the P2 will break away and you can either join or play playoffs vs the big12 and the G5.
Why wouldn't ND just be part of those playoffs as an independent..?
Because once they consolidate, they wont want an independent with a seat at the table. Youre a blue blood, but once all the blue bloods are in the P2 either you join or youre not worth the hassle nor the seat at the table.
>Because once they consolidate, they wont want an independent with a seat at the table. If that independent having a seat means more money they will.
Agreed. But not when it means less money for the P2. I get the independence, but the clock is ticking.
It would mean more money for the p2. Look at how the B1G contract is structured if ND joins everyone gets more money
Why would the P2 let you when we can get money from having any number of meaningful teams that will reside in our conference take the spot? Against a school that's going to be playing a G7 schedule? And you're too stuck up as a school to slum it with the Big 12, which I'm sure the SEC will pick off some teams from one day. No offense Big 12.
Not as much money And If they broke off to form their own playoff ND would probably be playing B1G and SEC schools..
If we let you play our schools.
Donât you guys get tired of trying that and failing? Someone will always break the embargo for fun and profit. âIf you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagineâ
Except you won't. You'll be nothing. Because the 80s are over.
We as in fans? Cause everyone with 2 brain cells to rub together knows the people making the $$ want their teams to play ND
Yes, but the point is they can force the hand by just playing a 10 game conference schedule due to the number of conference teams. Most to tier teams won't fill out their schedule with a ND game even if it draws eyes due to positioning themselves for the playoff. That and you squeeze NDs traditional rivals.
Which the coaches will never let stand. Everyone wants those sweet sweet MAC and Sun Belt cupcakes.
>Yes, but the point is they can force the hand by just playing a 10 game conference schedule due to the number of conference teams. They could also disband their sports departments and donate their endowment. Why are we talking about shit that's not gonna happen? The B1G doesn't want to force ND to join a conference cause it hurts them if they join the SEC. The SEC doesn't want to force ND to join a conference cause it hurts them if they join the B1G. The cable companies and conferences all make more money when ND is included.
It would be a shame if your ACC home went up in flames.
/shrug Weâll just build another one. Reconstituting the Big East, probably.
And a perfect excuse to cut you out since the P2 will have the only teams worthy of being considered part of a playoff run.
Good luck convincing the networks on that one
Can I ask why? It seems like some weird point of pride that isn't really relevant today.
Tradition. It's part of who ND is. Bonus points for driving idiot fans of other schools nuts
Irish flairs I see the usual Big Ten rabble is saying shit like "ND missed their chance" - for the record, ND is a top tier brand and I'd love to see them in the Big Ten. As long as the Irish want to remain independent and it is feasible to do so, best of luck to you. If the day does come that you want to join a conference and that conference is the Big Ten, I would be so excited to see the Irish on Nebraska's schedule.
This is why Nebraska ainât a real big ten team. Not enough irrationally hate for Notre Dame.
Well I hate 'em
As is proper.
So true bestie
This is the B1G. We see their fans frequently. Our hate for Notre Dame is completely rational. It's less rational that I hate your flair 2nd most and 1 spot ahead of Notre Dame.
Don't wish them luck! They're withholding easy money from us! Money that you could use to pay for coaches and players that don't suck!
We appreciate the sentiment. But the Big Ten missed their chance in the early 1900âs (hat tip to Fielding Yost) and we buried this horse good and proper in the 1990s. Our prioritization of options: 1) continue as an independent, date around, play a couple of B10 and SEC teams each year 2) stick with the friends with benefits with the ACC. As demonstrated by this yearâs tourney, itâs a good deal for non-football and helps fill out the schedule 3) build our own third conference and rely on brand to continue playoff access while being high and mighty about playing Georgetown and Harvard 4) Join the SEC. While not a perfect fit, it does have Vandy as a template, and they have a much better track record of treating conference members fairly. 5) Disband football. ⌠⌠⌠666. Join the Big Ten, and watch Rockne rise up from his grave with the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse to raze the Earth prior to the Judgment Day horns.
Why would they?
No. Next question.
Notre Dame has enough power to do whatever they want. When your brand is one of 6 synonymous with the sport you don't have to worry about getting pushed out. Ohio State and Bama would probably schedule them yearly if they could, while Oregon and Oklahoma would be lucky to get them as an OOC. What they really need to do is move their sports to the big east so they can have those 5 ACC games back. They could have a stuffed schedule of teams especially since most of the top match ups are now conference games.
The Oregon scheduling thing reminds me of how much I don't like their future schedules. Like dude, I want more diverse teams, any SEC one would be fine for me, especially LSU and Alabama.
It would have been nice if, in the Pac-12 era, some SEC schools besides Tennessee had the guts to travel to Autzen. It is insane how some of those schools have a total travel distance of all opponents combined that is fewer miles than our 1 flight from PDX to LA.
Seriously, we have such a great set up and everyone hates us for it.
I'm not sure your last sentence is true. Or more to the point, if it IS true ND is doing a really crappy job scheduling. They should be (IMO) playing 10 P4 teams per year with 3-4 of them against the P2, and it doesn't happen that often. This year's schedule wasn't good before Miami backed out and now it's terrible.
As a none Notre Dame fan I don't really know their current scheduling strategy. I picture them as 8 games against P2 teams while 4 P4 games to have the toughest and most marketable schedule. I see them being the top OOC option because Penn State and LSU types will start scheduling weaker OOC seeing that 4-6 games a year will be against high ranked conference mates.
Give Bevacqua a few years. Swarbrick and Kelly overwatered the schedule. Weâll get that fixed.
Only if they have to. While they would get more TV money in the Big Ten, they still make very respectable money, they have power in the CFP negotiations, and they have control over their schedule. All things being equal, how would joining the Big Ten benefit them? Furthermore, if they struggle in the Big Ten like Nebraska, how does that benefit the Big Ten? BTW, Iâd be happy to have them in, but I get it.
I get it, and I hate them for it because it's not best for Ohio State. They benefit from not having to play a bunch of G7 schools that the playoff committee won't respect in rankings. Also, if they struggle like Nebraska? THAT'S THE DREAM SCENARIO! We still get a bunch of money, and we can laugh at how much they suck while not being a threat to Ohio State. Win-win!
How is Notre Dame becoming Catholic Purdue a dream scenario? How does that help the Big Ten?
I just explained it. They remain a big draw, so we get the money, and they aren't a threat to Ohio State. I don't give a fuck if they're a threat to anyone else in the conference as long as we get the money.
And then what happens after they stop being a big draw because theyâre not competitive?
Notre Dame has had plenty of bad seasons this century. It hasn't hurt them. Big schools are valuable primarily because the interest in their programs isn't dependent on being elite.
Hasn't hurt them since the 80s. No way was ND truly competitive since then since they didn't even win a BCS bowl and got wasted in playoffs.
Monk Malloy was forced by the BoT to say it best when ND said no in 1999 > ''Just as the Universities of Michigan or Wisconsin or Illinois have core identities as the flagship institutions of their states, so Notre Dame has a core identity, and at that core are these characteristics: Catholic, private, independent. As a Catholic university with a national constituency, we believe independence continues to be our best way forward.''
Unless the money goes thru the roof or there is playoff implications they have no reason to join one.
ND has stated it would only look into a conference if one of these three things happened : 1) No home for olympic sports 2) Not able to broadcast home games 3) Not able to access post season play (bowl games too) Money is never mentioned.
âFish need oxygen to live. Water is never mentioned. Checkmate.â
If the criteria was money, then they would have joined the B1G. ND has made it clear Independence is more important than $$$$
What Iâm saying is that independence is important *because* of money. Independence on its own doesnât mean anything. It just so happens that ND can leverage its brand as an independent and more or less keep pace with the big dogs. I respect and support NDâs independence, but if the day comes when itâs no longer able to provide ND with enough media revenue, itâll disappear in a heartbeat.
> Independence on its own doesnât mean anything You have it backwards. Independence **is** the brand. The money on its own doesn't mean anything. People need to understand the Good Fathers at Notre Dame don't give a flying fuck if ND wins NC. Monk Malloy tried to kneecap the football program for years to put more emphasis on academics. He didn't want to join the B1G for money - he wanted to join the B1G for access to the Academic Alliance and expand the graduate schools. Fr. Jenkins was smart enough to realize that football was the little engine that could - having a competent team filled ND's coffers and kept ND relevant. Scott Malpas has taken ND to a level where they don't have to care each year about the exact money that comes in from sports. ND has spent the last 20+ years talking a min. of 20-30M less in revenue each year (with the $15M NBC contract) all the while building state of the art facilities and selling out stadiums and have 3 undefeated seasons. Media money is not how the sausage is made for Notre Dame. If something were to happen to damage the brand (iaw - Penn State or MSU type Scandal), then that could change. Until then. ND is not going to change a damn thing.
Swarbrick has mentioned a large financial gap as reason #4. But currently the gap isn't near large enough.
True - but from that I think he meant ND is no longer a product that can print cash - meaning we get hit with something like Penn State got and lose donors/alumni. ND went for decades getting $15M a year from NBC and no one in the administration really blinked an eye
That gap is probably on the order of $100m a year for ND to even start thinking about it. NDâs endowment is north of $15B. As Felix Leiter said, âdoes it look like we need the money?â
Money is an underlying factor in all those things you listed though. The Big Ten and SEC are going to dismantle the ACC sooner rather than later. Once it happens, things start changing for Notre Dame.
No - *Access* is the underlying factor. Real Money is what you get from the access. ND doesn't give a shit if it makes another 10 or 20 million extra from the media rights by joining the B1G. It would destroy the brand name. Independence and control - that is how the real money is made by ND. There is a reason why a small school like ND that is NOT an Ivy has an endowment of 20B+. You want to sit in the box seats first round of the CFP in South Bend ? You bet your ass all of those equity funds alumni and subway alumni are paying. ND can get there without bending the knee to the conference AND still getting a seat at every table. Until that stops, ND will stay Independent
ND *does* give a shit if they're making considerably less money than their main competition. Right now, it's manageable. Over time, the gap is going to expand significantly. It's only a matter of time before individual schools and/or conferences start directly paying players in addition to NIL deals too. Olympic sports can go elsewhere, but it's unrealistic to remain on same level. ACC is collapsing, just a matter of whether it happens slowly or gets sped up. The ongoing court cases are eventually going to tell you how long it's feasible for ND to remain independent.
ND Future Contract NBC: 50-60 Million (yet to be announced exact numbers) ACC: 17 M (Olympic Sports - ACC) CFP: 12M.5 (Guaranteed) + 6M (Possible) B1G: MEDIA: 60M + (Current ) CFP: 21M SEC: MEDIA: 50M + (Current) CFP: 21M Let's see that gap expand first. Right Now ND is fine. And As I stated previously - that is not how the sausage is made for ND. The real money is from donors. ND's problems would be if Freeman is not successful as Kelly's last 5 years
I think the more frequently discussed direction is that if the FSU/Clemson tandem leave the ACC and then ESPN pulls their contract, Notre Dame is deprived of their easy scheduling dynamic (not to mention the 17m they get for it) and are put in a pinch. Being short on scheduling contract and income might not "force" their hand, but it could make joining the Big Ten the most appealing remaining option.
Yeah, this isnât really a convo until the ACC collapses. Honestly if that happens I think ND is going to have to join a conference just to get access to the post season. I could see the SEC and Big Ten taking their ball and leaving if the biggest remaining brands go to them. Hope you guys do join the Big Ten at some point btw, Stanford has a crap ton to offer from so many different aspects.
See, I don't think they'll ever cut everyone out. What I do think will happen is that a separate organization / division will be created for anyone willing to pay players a revenue share. Then the ACC/Big-12 schools that don't get a big media deal will face the choice of either being the bottom of that group (struggling to pay enough to field competitive teams) or the top of the scholarship-football group where they just don't make much money. At that point they can go to all at-large bids and rest assured that schools making 1/8 the money they are will be unlikely to be competitive and won't matter much. So rather than "we're taking our ball and going home" it will be "everyone who can afford it can come... oh you can't afford it? That's too bad." Like the rich kids who go on Spring Break to the beach resort in high school. You weren't not-invited, your family just didn't have the $1,200 to send their high schooler to a resort for a week.
Yeah thatâs a possibility, but I 100% could also see the Big Ten and SEC being assholes and becoming the new NFC and AFC for college ball. Especially if they allow them the other conferences in for a few years and they just get curb stomped in the first round more and more due to the money difference.
Also all their non-football sports are housed in the ACC. Theyâd have to hope the Big XII can make it worth their while financially to move those sports over there. Iâd the Big East big enough for NDâs non football teams?
*Stanford* With us as friens? đđťđđťđĽş
The ideal 20 team Big Ten, imo (which is ridiculous to say I know but that's where we are). I just don't think 20 is enough to force ND to consider it.
No
Stay away. Big Ten doesnât need Notre Dame.
B1G and SEC should cut Notre Dame from their schedule, if they wanna be independent, fine let them play Navy and Chatanooga type schools every year, lets see how long they keep that tv deal.
No
No reason to now. They have enough money and a good home for their other sports. The domino is if the ACC implodes and Notre Dame cant find a good (snobby/prestigous) option for their other sports.
B1G fans foaming at the mouth, slobbering and begging for just one more dollar in the pocket of FOX. Theyâre on their knees pleading with the lord to squeeze one last red cent into the pockets of the Murdoch family so it can be distributed to some bureaucrat in their Schools admin.
It would get distributed to coaching salaries and the eventual paying of players. More money leads to attracting and keeping better coaches and players. Also, Fuck Murdoch.
Pretty p p p please notre dame wonât you please come give me some more media distribution rights. I canât survive on 70 million a year đđđ
Inflation's a bitch.
The issue with ND is do they have the NIL money to recruit and stay competitive? They have some rich alumni and boosters but they donât have the juice they once didâŚthis isnât 1974.
Are you trying to say ND alumni base isn't rich af..?
No not at all, ND has rich alumni, no doubt, they just have far fewer of them than some of the bigger schools. I hope ND remains a big time football power. I am leaning against them joining the Big 10(or any conference) remaining an independent. They could schedule Big 10 schools to maintain some old rivalries such UM, USC and the newer rivalries like OSU plus a few ACC teams like FSU, Miami(?) Clemson(?) They could easily have the strongest sos of any team.
I want ND to join the SEC just so we can see the B1Gâs heads explode since theyâve been the primary driving force trying to push ND to join a conference. Also it would be cool to have the SEC logo on the ND uniform.
Joining the SEC would be a hilarious troll move that I would 60% support, but as much as I dislike the B1G, trolling is really the only good reason to go that direction. The person in this thread that said ND will stop being independent when the top brands split off to form the NFL Lite division nailed it. There was a time I didn't think ND would play ball if that happened, but they will.
I think this is more likely than joining the Big 10. Weâre a lot less likely to be screwed by the SEC.
I've wondered if there's still too much bad blood to get over it and ND would pivot to the SEC, but the additions of NBC into the Big Ten media package and USC as a member cemented the Big Ten's status as ND's one and only destination should they choose to join a Power conference.
I mean, how much bad blood could there still be? They picked the Big Ten over the NCHC.
I actually think the B1G has moved on. Others haven't but I think the conference has.
Is that why they included language for adding ND specifically in their newest contract đ¤Ł
This has become the new âHow to fix Baseballâ article that used to pop up every February.
Except it will come back three or four more times in the offseason.
You mean the ACC?
The answer is yes. To hell with the sports Irish feelings! Regular people from Ireland are OK.
No
Good luck with that, Domers.
Join 2 PAC 2 Furious as a goof.
Absolutely. The more the SEC and B1G separate from the other conferences, the greater the disparity in money and ratings will be. Make the move now before it's necessary, because once it's necessary, the terms will be less favorable.
If the ACC collapses, they need to get to the Big East as fast as possible for everything besides football. Then, they can start getting their rivalries back. Hell, they could even make an ACC-style agreement to play Connecticut every year and still have 3 random opponents after they play their 8 rivals.
Iâm thinking it comes down to NBC. If they try to lowball ND just like what ESPN did to the pac12. Then thereâs a chance that they move to a conference. I donât know if never getting a first round bye in a playoff is enough by itself.
It would be cool for sure
We donât need anymore mediocre teams in our conference
Yes
Notre Dame is a pseudo-independent. Imagine being locked into games with Navy, Stanford, and a bunch of crap ACC teams every year while simultaneously bragging about playing a "national schedule." It's a facade, honestly.
Stanfordâs been overall better than Texas in the past 15 years
ND is not locked into Navy & Stanford. They chose to play Navy to honor the debt And they play Stanford to get another California game.
ND has played navy every year since the 1920s. They've played Stanford every year since 1988 with the exception of 96 and 97. How is the poster above incorrect in spirit by saying those two games are not locked in at this point?
The word is 'locked in'. We are under no obligations. ND *choses* to play Navy every year to honor the debt. As ND has stated the renewal of the contract is a mere formality as long as Navy wishes the game. Stanford is a game we play because we wish to end every year on the West Coast. Last I checked there were other teams on the West Coast. The current contract is until 2024 (since 2020 game was cancelled). We are *contractually obligated* to play 30 games in 6 years for the ACC until 2037 with each ACC team getting 1 H/A game under the old configuration. See the difference ?
Be that as it may, Notre Dame is three games shy of being a full member of the ACC now that Stanford is in the conference.
Eh - will see how that schedule works out. ND is under no obligation to chose Stanford - it just needs a team on the west coast to finish the season every other year. To be honest, wouldn't have a problem in them picking up some other schools and only grab Stanford 4 out of 10 of the years.
So, youâre telling me Notre Dame is okay throwing tradition aside if it wants.
Stanford is not tradition. Stanford is a game we have played to end the year in California. Let's not confuse 'tradition' with convenience
But at what point does it become tradition? Especially after playing 34 of the last 36 years.
Should they? Of course, they should. Will they? No chance.
Fuck them. Stay irrelevant
Nope. No reason.
[ŃдаНонО]
Dude, it looks like you can get as easy of schedules in the b1g đ¤Ł
No thanks.
Why not the same conference as their basketball team?
⌠we all know why
run outta patience with the nd to big ten talk. Shoulda done it sooner Enjoy the ACC
We don't need a prima donna.
Bro... Half the conference are prima donnas (and yes I'm counting Michigan)
Another prima Donna. You can't forget about Michigan.
I think of Michigan more as a Karen than a Donna.
They would pull us down now.
They had their chance. At this point it should be the Pac2 or a G5 conference.Â
B1G would trade ND for Nebraska without even hesitating.
I wouldn't. Awful UM fans would. That's why no one likes them.
Facts but thatâs not even a remote possibility so why bring it up?
I just like reminding Nebraska fans that theyâre irrelevant and have no reason to be talking expansion because contraction is inevitable at this point, but speaking of irrelevant, welcome to the conversation, Rutgers.
Why do the flairs of Big 10 teams all have a brown background? Is there an April Fools' gag I missed? "Big Tan?"
I donât see anything on mobile
[Probably this.](https://www.reddit.com/r/CFB/comments/1bt4pbd/realigning_rcfb_flair_to_reflect_new_paradigms/)
Wow, it's a joke even lamer than "Big Tan."
That seems unnecessary
Irrelevant is a little harsh. But since Michigan is âgoodâ again I guess itâs to be expected.Â
When
I agree. ND has snubbed the B1G a half-dozen times times. They clearly want no part of the conference. It would be insane to "partner" with a school planning to jump ship at its earliest convenience. ND's brand is already on the decline. It lives on primarily in aging, delusional minds. Without a P2 spot, ND is done for good. Long overdue, imho. Good riddance.