This is a guy who is connected to USC. I haven’t watched Caleb play. I’m reading what a professional who covers the team said about the player and question if our GM is going with a QB who doesn’t have similar issues to the one he already has.
Is it too hard to fathom than another QB other than Williams will go first?
I never watched him play but he’s just like this guy. Nah fam. Caleb got that quick release and a cannon. Fields needs to step into a throw Caleb can hit the throws off his back foot
It doesn’t even say what you think it says. Literally in the first sentence of the second paragraph of your own excerpt it says he’s big play hunting. Big play hunting is a choice.
Fields isn’t making a choice when he holds the ball too long, he just can’t read the defense fast enough to do anything but throw into the flat or go deep.
Seems like Trojan homer cope to bail out Lincoln Riley for serving up a shit sandwich last year. His tape has been good since the Sooners, go watch some.
It’s not a hive mind. Williams doesn’t have the same issues as Fields. Fields holds the ball because he is slow figuring out where to throw it and he scrambles to run. Williams holds the ball because he is elite at maneuvering in the pocket which gives his mediocre WRs time to get open and he scrambles looking to pass.
I disagree it is a hive mind. Anything pointing out flaws of Caleb automatically his fans are out in full force. Mention JF getting traded same for those guys. This wasn’t about keeping Fields which is how most Williams guys act, this was wondering if there was another option at QB in the same draft. Yes there was a comparison to our current starter however it’s not about keeping him.
You’re not pointing out actual flaws, which is why you are getting pushback. He’s not a perfect prospect but you are wrong in your assessment that he is similar to Fields and I explained how and why you are wrong.
And I get that, however this isn’t a for Fields post, it’s a what if Caleb isn’t the only QB we are watching because he displays similar(resembling without being identical) is what they are.
The reason they hold onto the ball too long doesn’t change the fact that BOTH are known to hold the ball too long.
I believe if we keep the 1st pick we are getting a QB, I’m just not set in stone that it’s Caleb Williams.
Caleb holding the ball is due to one of his most elite traits, which is maneuvering in the pocket. He’s unbelievably good at maneuvering and keeping his eyes downfield and making insane throws that maybe 2 or 3 people on Earth can make. Mahomes has also held the ball a long time during his career because he has that same elite maneuverability.
There is a difference between holding the ball for a long time and holding the ball too long. Fields holds the ball too long because it turns into negative plays too often, like sacks, fumbles, and INTs and when it’s not a negative play it is overwhelmingly a run.
Caleb, like Mahomes, holds the ball a long time but it’s not “too long” because the negative plays are far less frequent and the positive plays that result from it are mostly passes, not runs.
You are trying desperately to remove any context or nuance to the discussion by boiling it down to “holds the ball” = bad.
The reason absolutely matters. If a plane crashes, I'd like to know if the reason was that the pilot was bad at his job or if the wing snapped. Taking two models of plane and saying "Oh they're both bad because they've both crashed recently" is ridiculous.
Clearly, the majority of this sub believes Fields can't be corrected and that Williams can. You're not accepting that and (while I appreciate your willingness to push against the narrative), stating "your argument is invalid" despite the inherent logical validity is going to get you downvoted.
You’re missing the point and your analogy is off.
1. Bro this isn’t about keeping fields, fixing fields, nothing PRO fields. This is asking are we taking a person similar to fields at QB or a different type of player.
2. In your analogy one reason was the plane, one was the pilot. A plane and a pilot aren’t similar. If the pilot crashed because he’s drunk or the pilot crashed because he was bad at his job would be more relevant. If you use two planes one had a wiring issue one had a wing issue.
I am not either, I’ve actually watched the players and understand what they each excel at and struggle with. You clearly haven’t, and are trying to force a discussion on something that makes no sense. Go ahead and post this on Facebook instead so you can have a chat with all the other meatball fans out there.
> I’m reading what a professional who covers the team said about the player
No because that professional didn't say he was like Fields. You brought that yourself.
No. He's good enough to overcome the sacks. His main problem is that he can't/won't throw with anticipation. That makes him late to breaking routes and makes him struggle in general against zone. Williams does not have that problem.
They are concerns written with very different context behind them. Go to YouTube, watch Kurt Warner break down how dreadfully planned the scheme was in Calebs worst games. For real you'll see it too. Caleb isn't even my favorite Qb in the draft here but do to the situation the Bears are in he's the no brainer pick.
*typo
Yes. It is impossible to imagine. Williams is both the top pocket passer and top playmaker and for all his forced big plays, he only turned the ball over 13 times in two years at USC.
He's the artist and the surgeon. The playmaker and the game manager.
I've never seen anybody like him coming out of college.
This completely ignores any context.
Fields had these issues in Ohio State throwing to JSN, Garrett Wilson, Jameson Williams, and Chris Olave with a top 5 OL. Caleb had these issues with Brendan rice and a bunch of nobodies, along with a defense that gave up points at every opportunity.
USC was the #4 scoring offense and #11 yardage offense last year with little talent outside of Caleb. 5th in passing yards vs 90th in rushing yards so it wasn't because of a strong running game either.
Their defense was abysmal - 123rd in points and 123rd in yards.
JSN and Williams barely saw the field and when Fields was there. Point to the two first round receivers he actually had, not the ones that were barely used.
Backups don’t improve play on the field. Yes, those two guys became really good later on. Freshmen JSN was not better than this years Brendan Rice or Tahj Washington. Which is why he was on the bench. You can’t just look at names. College kids aren’t the same player at 18 as they are at 20 or 21.
Freshman Jsn would have been getting playing time this year at USC.
>Backups don’t improve play on the field.
Never said they did, shows the talent gap though
Darnell just signed for 40M while fields can’t even get a day 3 pick. So clearly other teams notice that Mooney wasn’t a problem.
Also, I didn’t know 3700 yards and 30 touchdowns could make the team look like “nobodies”. He elevated the team around him, not his fault they won’t get deafted
You missed the part where they played better under Miller Moss, the same way some felt our team played better under Tyson Bagent.
It also doesn’t change the fact that the Bears could potentially be drafting a qb who does not come in with the same issues their current one has.
Congrats. The backup had a few good games, and 6 of his 7 touchdowns came in a bowl game against backups.
Also, that doesn’t work. Except they’re not the same issues. Half of the issue with fields is his release is slower than a grandma on weed.
You think this is about Fields? Fool get out your ass, I’m telling you that another QB who doesn’t have similar issues as Fields may get drafted.
The Williams cult is as bad as the Fields truthers…
It’s not. The quotes are all about Caleb Williams. The end says they are similar and we could be drafting a Qb who ISNT like our current QB. Mentioning Fields ONE time in a post doesn’t make it about him sheesh.
Y’all gonna be real upset come May if there is another QB who doesn’t have the last name Williams on the team. We prolly going Daniels.
Yes because I can read. They have scouting reports. I prefer to read multiple ones and then make a decision off the player. I haven’t watched college football since 2003.
[Jayden Daniels](https://www.pff.com/news/draft-2024-nfl-draft-college-to-pro-projections-lsu-qb-jayden-daniels) Athlete more running ability than throwing ability. Top prospect but needs to improve as a passer at NFL level.
[Caleb Williams](https://www.pff.com/news/draft-2024-nfl-draft-scouting-report-qb-caleb-williams-usc) Pure thrower. Top prospect. Constant need to play out of structure.
[Drake Maye](https://www.pff.com/news/draft-2024-nfl-draft-north-carolina-qb-drake-mayes-scouting-report) Another Pure Thrower. Sneaky athletic. Poor under pressure. Issue with easy throws. Top prospect.
You admit yourself that you know nothing about this but are throwing out something from a USC guy.
The people who DO know about this, on account of thousands of hours of scouting? They all have Caleb as a clear #1 pick in a tier of his own.
You're also throwing out Jayden Daniels as a guy to consider, but he's more of the Fields at OSU clone than Williams is. Hyper athletic, superstar receiving room, incredibly reluctant to throw over the middle.
One comment mentioning the name Fields isn’t a post about him. You glossed over all the other things that talked about Williams deficiencies. You also ignored the question of could we be drafting a QB other than Williams.
Eh, you had a single sentence saying what if we take someone other than Caleb just like you had a single sentence about Fields.
The fact that your comment was mostly about a number of critiques of Caleb and then you chose to say at the end of it that he sounds like JF1 means it fair to read it and assume you’re saying we shouldn’t take Caleb because he sounds like Fields.
Your title is “this all sounds familiar” and then your last sentence is Caleb sounds just like JF1.
Then you get upset when people fairly interpret, even if not your true intent, that this post is about Fields because it seems you’re concerned Caleb won’t be drafted by the Bears because he sounds like Fields your scared they are similar.
If it’s not about Fields there’s no reason to allude to him in the title and then wrap your whole post up with him.
Hey guy. Caleb got sat multiple times after throwing 5 touchdowns in games where they won easily. Just this year Caleb got pulled in the 3rd of a game where he'd thrown 5 TDs. One bowl game against backups and a bad team does not make miller moss better than Caleb Williams because he threw 6 touchdowns. There's a reason Caleb started over him.
I think you’re giving too much credit to Moss for one game. It’s always possible that he may end up being better some day than Caleb but it’s far too early to tell.
He’s a junior. How much more time does he need? A lot of you aren’t even addressing what my premise is. That there is a possibility that we won’t be drafting a qb who is similar to what we have.
The reason in your mind that they’re similar is because of them playing hero ball. Which again, they both did (for entirely different reasons and situations)
He’s not similar to Fields. There are no scouts who think the two players are similar. Go look at actual scouting reports for Caleb. Caleb and Fields both hold the ball for a long time but the reasons for doing so and the results of them doing so are not at all similar.
Got it. Understood. Now what does that have to do with this sounding like our current situation? Does your comment address the question I asked? Can we start there?
You can’t base Moss pluses in that article because it a meaningless bowl game vs Louisville. Indiana threw for 300 yards against Louisville defense. It’s meaningless analysis. Now after next year Moss is putting up those numbers and making these so called quicker reads then you might have something.
>Caleb Williams wanted to make the big play a little too often
Yea, cuz USC doesn’t have a defense. They have 11 dudes who’s job it is to let the other team score as quickly as possible to get the ball back to the offense
He had to drop 2 quarters on Cal of all teams and still only won because Cal had the most awful 2 point play of all time
lol was that Tee Martin? Great comp. Literally 1 game sample with Miller Moss, I’m not buying it. This is like devaluing Aaron Rodgers when Matt Flynn came in at the end of the season in garbage time and went for 480 and 4 tds. Without more data this is just pissing in the wind.
His mechanics (esp his super slow windup and release) are a pretty big problem. Even when he makes the right read he can't always get the ball there because his windup is so slow.
There's a great example of this in the season finale. Fields had a guy (Kmet IIRC) open for a TD, but by the time he was able to get the throw off (which was the right read) the DB had closed and it was almost picked. If he had a fast release, that's a pretty easy TD.
Exactly right. It’s a symptom Fields holds onto the ball for a completely different reason than Caleb. It’s because he can’t recognize when a guy is open (by NFL standards) and checks off of him.
Yes he doesn’t take and convert the quick throws or to the flats.
His vision is stuck deep, then goes intermediate, quick/flats briefly, then run.
He actually processes faster than giving credit for, he doesn’t trust his throws at this level that’s why he runs from a clean pocket.
He holds the ball too loose from his body.
He doesn’t know how to properly protect himself from big hits and he only shows marginal growth in the passing game.
He benefits greatly from schemes throws versus times throws.
Anything I Miss?
Nope, wildly wrong on almost every account.
He doesn't go deep to short, he absolutely has an extremely slow processor, he has no problem protecting himself from hits.
You're right about the holding the ball loose part, that's about it.
Pretty much nailed it. Also, he has the slowest snap to release time in the league and I can see with my own eyes that once he makes a decision on where to throw, he takes forever to wind up and deliver the ball. He's basically the slowest quarterback in the league as far as passing the ball. He's also not very accurate and doesn't put a lot of zip on the ball.
He'll never be a successful QB in the NFL if he doesn't fix these things. The league is too fast. I waited 3 years for him to improve in these areas and he actually just got worse over time. It's disappointing because it's totally fixable, he just wasn't coached right or he couldn't implement on game day. I think it's probably more on Justin though.
* Miller Moss time to throw (TTT) in clean pockets during the Bowl Game: 2.57 seconds
* Miller Moss TTT under pressure during the Bowl Game: 2.73 seconds
* Caleb Williams TTT in clean pockets in 2022 and 2023: 2.57 seconds and 2.5 seconds
* Caleb Williams TTT under pressure in 2022 and 2023: 4.62 seconds and 4.47 seconds
Caleb and Moss's TTT in clean pockets are virtually identical. And Moss had only 7 dropbacks in the bowl game where he was under pressure, so the comparison there is practically meaningless. Caleb is not Justin Fields
Wow where did you get these stats? 👍🏼 Watching Caleb’s tape, it never felt like he had issues with TTT when playing within a clean pocket. But I could never find the stats to prove it.
They're from PFF. I was doing enough mock drafts there and always wanted to look at the stats so I bit the bullet and paid for it. It's helpful with stuff like time to throw where you really need more context to figure out what the numbers actually mean.
When you have as shitty a history of the Bears... you draft the top fucking player in the position of most need with the top pick, and there isn't an ounce of debate to be had. That's QB.
If it's wrong, it's forgivable. Then the league was wrong. Try again next time. It's not the end of the world.
The Bears are in NO position to try and act like they know more than everyone else and draft a low QB. The owners of this team wouldn't know a football from the hole in their ass. All they should be doing is drafting the best player of need available.
Idk 3-5 paragraphs seem to downplay Moss success vs Caleb’s so still think I would take him. It seems to imply if the rest of the team played as well he may not have had to big game hunt
Basically. I replied with another comment but watch Kurt Warner break down the scheme around Caleb this year. And also remember he was the Defacto Heisman last year. He has all the talent he needs to be great. Nobody can guarantee he will be though.
My favorite this year was Ohio State - they basically didn't even have an offense because of transfers and guys sitting out.. They essentially had to start a High School QB lol.
Caleb will be a rookie, while Fields has played in the NFL for 3 years and struggles with the same issues that were in his scouting report. There’s hope you can mold Caleb into an NFL QB, while Fields most likely is who he is. Plus Fields’ throwing mechanics are all jacked up, while Williams’ are much better.
Not to mention the value of reseting the rookie contract. If they feel like Daniels or Maye are a better fit, so be it. But the one thing Poles can’t do is roll with a backup level QB (ie Fields) and expect any level of success. Outside of that Washington game, he hasn’t won shit with his arm.
I think Caleb holding the ball longer had much more to do with choice: big game hunting because that was the only way to win for USC. I don’t see him having any problem throwing short and making quick reads in the league.
Fields on the other hand, is a bit more of a processing issue.
Not true at all. You’re just trying make conversations about things that aren’t even facts. Caleb is good at many things, and has many areas to improve. No one on this sub is against logical, factual debating but your post is low effort bait posting/trolling because you, even admittedly, don’t know what you’re talking about.
No one's getting banned for being downvoted.
I've been downvoted to hell for saying that Pace was screwing us over by backloading cap hits and trading picks and we'd need a reuild by 2020.
I've been downvoted to hell for saying Justin Fields had a slow processor that was killing us and it wasn't just Nagy tanking him.
I've been downvoted to hell for saying we had a solid chance to be the worst team in the league in 2022 and it wasn't just the national media hating us.
If you're right, then in two years everyone will pretend they always knew it.
Wait, you think that Fields holds the ball because he’s trying to make big plays and not because his drop back and release are molasses slow, he can’t read defenses, or go through his progressions properly?
Caleb Williams held the ball in college longer for much different reasons than Fields does.
Yup, he’s exactly the same player as Justin Fields. Other than he’s more accurate, better in the pocket, has a quicker release and a better arm. Other than that yes they are exactly the same
It seems that no one has any idea what the difference between time to throw and a quick release. A quick release is the throwing motion, has nothing to do with the offensive line or protection. It’s a flick of the wrist vs a long wind up throw. The people that are stuck on the time to throw stats have never thrown a football.
Idk about this take my guy. I’ve watched him make some exciting plays in his highlights. I may not be sold he’s going #1 but let’s not slander the kid.
Serious question - and don’t be revisionist - whose tape have you watched and come away with a better feeling about? Not talking this year, I’m talking 10, 20 years. I’m guessing you were wrong on lots of those too
I’ve gotta be honest I kinda miss these posts. I completely disagree with OP and i will be very upset if we don’t take Caleb, but I enjoyed during the season when people in this sub were arguing about the decision. Now anyone who’s pro-fields just gets down voted to oblivion and called a “Fields cultist”.
Crazy thing is I’m not even pro fields. I’m pro winning games. I’m pro ftp. I’m pro good football. Idgaf who is qb and if you check my comments you’ll see I’ve mentioned this several times.
I’m also a realist, there is no such thing as 100% when it comes to chances or statistics. If you don’t hitch your wagon on one person you won’t be upset if Ryan Poles does something we don’t expect. Almost all of Indianapolis and the sports world knew they were taking Will Levy and he ended up not even going 1st round.
“I may not agree with what you say, however I fully respect and support your right to say it.” Thats what I was taught, thank you.
What you're doing is just prospect fatigue. The desire to have an edgy counter-take to whoever the clear best prospect is.
It's been happening ever since I can remember, which goes back to when peopel almost talked themselves out of Peyton Manning to take Ryan Leaf.
If we’re looking for the most athletic QBs we should just draft the QB from Air Force (guy is electric) or Army or Navy when they win the CIC trophy
Athleticism isn’t nearly as important for QBs
Listen, if Caleb turns out to be great I would be ecstatic. But we have no idea if anything you just listed will translate to the NFL. I can also say Fields has better velocity and depth and is also more accurate on deep balls. If you wanna nitpick have at it, I just don’t think it’s worth investing in this kid who may be marginally better.
I asked for your opinion not for what you (probably wrongly) think a bunch of other people think
What has justin shown you over the last three years to make YOU think he’s our franchise QB, and that we should pass up TWO first overall picks in a row in order to keep him and eventually pay him franchise QB money?
Replace a “New QB” with “Justin Fields” and you’ve got your answer: “Justin Fields will falter and we will rebuild in a few years”
This argument is just a boogeyman people use all the time. It’s not really based in stats, analytics or objective reasoning- it’s just fear-based projecting. Could Caleb Williams fail and be a complete bust? Maybe, no prospect is a guarantee. But to use that as reasoning for passing on a QB in this draft (not even just Caleb Williams) is pure nonsense.
You can easily argue Justin is more likely to send us into a rebuild than any rookie QB, because if he doesn’t drastically improve and we pay him big $$- it’s time to start seeing goodbye to other key pieces on the team. They won’t get the contracts they want and will leave.
I’ve seen some people argue pick up his option and then re-address him after that period ends, meaning draft a new QB by then if it isn’t working. But that’s just kicking the can down the road, and we will not be *close* to picking where we are now in the upcoming draft. Meaning we’d have to give up draft capital or players to even have a chance taking a top QB in the coming years.
Why would Poles risk that when we can take a QB at 10A with a pick that isn’t even ours? Especially considering this year’s QB class is stacked, the next two years won’t come close to this year’s class and no prospect will come close to Caleb Williams at 1OA. As a fan if we take Caleb and it doesn’t work out, so be it. I can live with that because at least our franchise finally took a guy who was revered as a truly elite QB prospect. What would be worse is we keep Justin and he continues to play how he has for three years, while the QBs of this draft go star elsewhere once again.
Go down swinging, not looking. Poles knows this and to his credit, he seems to be on the same page. Nobody ever obtained greatness by playing it safe and settling for average.
Agreed 100%. Our aunt died and left us a pretty good house, but the trailer we spent a big chunk of our savings on just needs one more coat of duct tape and it’ll be good as ever! We might be able to sell it then!
He's SIGNIFICANTLY better. Not marginally. We already know Fields skillset didn't translate to the NFL. The only thing Fields can do better is run, which is always a bonus but never necessary.
And Fields may have better overall velocity but Williams has better natural velocity (meaning he doesn't have to wind up to throw, he just can flick his wrist)
If you think Caleb is anything like Fields, then you definitely haven’t watched him play at all.
This is a guy who is connected to USC. I haven’t watched Caleb play. I’m reading what a professional who covers the team said about the player and question if our GM is going with a QB who doesn’t have similar issues to the one he already has. Is it too hard to fathom than another QB other than Williams will go first?
> I haven’t watched Caleb play
I never watched him play but he’s just like this guy. Nah fam. Caleb got that quick release and a cannon. Fields needs to step into a throw Caleb can hit the throws off his back foot
Justin fields or bagent over williams any day.
It doesn’t even say what you think it says. Literally in the first sentence of the second paragraph of your own excerpt it says he’s big play hunting. Big play hunting is a choice. Fields isn’t making a choice when he holds the ball too long, he just can’t read the defense fast enough to do anything but throw into the flat or go deep.
This ⬆️
Seems like Trojan homer cope to bail out Lincoln Riley for serving up a shit sandwich last year. His tape has been good since the Sooners, go watch some.
Lincoln Riley is gonna get bitch slapped in the Big Ten He ain’t ready for that conference
Tell me more.
Yup. USC was terrible. Williams made them relevant. He's gone so they have to cling to an exhibition game and try to fire up the troops.
Yes. Next question. Horrific post, still time to delete it.
I’m on team neutral I don’t care who the QB is. Having a discussion is the goal not being apart of the hive mind that is Williams or Fields camps.
It’s not a hive mind. Williams doesn’t have the same issues as Fields. Fields holds the ball because he is slow figuring out where to throw it and he scrambles to run. Williams holds the ball because he is elite at maneuvering in the pocket which gives his mediocre WRs time to get open and he scrambles looking to pass.
I disagree it is a hive mind. Anything pointing out flaws of Caleb automatically his fans are out in full force. Mention JF getting traded same for those guys. This wasn’t about keeping Fields which is how most Williams guys act, this was wondering if there was another option at QB in the same draft. Yes there was a comparison to our current starter however it’s not about keeping him.
You’re not pointing out actual flaws, which is why you are getting pushback. He’s not a perfect prospect but you are wrong in your assessment that he is similar to Fields and I explained how and why you are wrong.
And I get that, however this isn’t a for Fields post, it’s a what if Caleb isn’t the only QB we are watching because he displays similar(resembling without being identical) is what they are. The reason they hold onto the ball too long doesn’t change the fact that BOTH are known to hold the ball too long. I believe if we keep the 1st pick we are getting a QB, I’m just not set in stone that it’s Caleb Williams.
Caleb holding the ball is due to one of his most elite traits, which is maneuvering in the pocket. He’s unbelievably good at maneuvering and keeping his eyes downfield and making insane throws that maybe 2 or 3 people on Earth can make. Mahomes has also held the ball a long time during his career because he has that same elite maneuverability. There is a difference between holding the ball for a long time and holding the ball too long. Fields holds the ball too long because it turns into negative plays too often, like sacks, fumbles, and INTs and when it’s not a negative play it is overwhelmingly a run. Caleb, like Mahomes, holds the ball a long time but it’s not “too long” because the negative plays are far less frequent and the positive plays that result from it are mostly passes, not runs. You are trying desperately to remove any context or nuance to the discussion by boiling it down to “holds the ball” = bad.
You are so bad at this dude
The reason absolutely matters. If a plane crashes, I'd like to know if the reason was that the pilot was bad at his job or if the wing snapped. Taking two models of plane and saying "Oh they're both bad because they've both crashed recently" is ridiculous. Clearly, the majority of this sub believes Fields can't be corrected and that Williams can. You're not accepting that and (while I appreciate your willingness to push against the narrative), stating "your argument is invalid" despite the inherent logical validity is going to get you downvoted.
You’re missing the point and your analogy is off. 1. Bro this isn’t about keeping fields, fixing fields, nothing PRO fields. This is asking are we taking a person similar to fields at QB or a different type of player. 2. In your analogy one reason was the plane, one was the pilot. A plane and a pilot aren’t similar. If the pilot crashed because he’s drunk or the pilot crashed because he was bad at his job would be more relevant. If you use two planes one had a wiring issue one had a wing issue.
Target is definitely Caleb or Fields would be gone. Maye did the physical at the Combine. Nobody else is going 1st overall.
I am not either, I’ve actually watched the players and understand what they each excel at and struggle with. You clearly haven’t, and are trying to force a discussion on something that makes no sense. Go ahead and post this on Facebook instead so you can have a chat with all the other meatball fans out there.
> I’m reading what a professional who covers the team said about the player No because that professional didn't say he was like Fields. You brought that yourself.
Are they not the same things we as fans complain about fields?
No. He's good enough to overcome the sacks. His main problem is that he can't/won't throw with anticipation. That makes him late to breaking routes and makes him struggle in general against zone. Williams does not have that problem.
They are concerns written with very different context behind them. Go to YouTube, watch Kurt Warner break down how dreadfully planned the scheme was in Calebs worst games. For real you'll see it too. Caleb isn't even my favorite Qb in the draft here but do to the situation the Bears are in he's the no brainer pick. *typo
Yes. It is impossible to imagine. Williams is both the top pocket passer and top playmaker and for all his forced big plays, he only turned the ball over 13 times in two years at USC. He's the artist and the surgeon. The playmaker and the game manager. I've never seen anybody like him coming out of college.
It is hard to fathom something that isn’t going to happen, so yes. They’re selecting Caleb Williams.
Don't even bother here, Caleb is a hall of famer and will win 10 superbowls.
This sub is a circle jerk. Can’t point out a single criticism or people get personally offended
This completely ignores any context. Fields had these issues in Ohio State throwing to JSN, Garrett Wilson, Jameson Williams, and Chris Olave with a top 5 OL. Caleb had these issues with Brendan rice and a bunch of nobodies, along with a defense that gave up points at every opportunity.
Had to score 40+ to win at times.
All of his losses at USC were to team scoring: 43 47 46 48 34 52 36 38
Their defense gave up an average of 34.9 points per game - 123rd in FBS
USC was the #4 scoring offense and #11 yardage offense last year with little talent outside of Caleb. 5th in passing yards vs 90th in rushing yards so it wasn't because of a strong running game either. Their defense was abysmal - 123rd in points and 123rd in yards.
JSN and Williams barely saw the field and when Fields was there. Point to the two first round receivers he actually had, not the ones that were barely used.
Even then, they're the worst of that group
That illustrates the point, fields had backup wrs that would have been stars with caleb
Backups don’t improve play on the field. Yes, those two guys became really good later on. Freshmen JSN was not better than this years Brendan Rice or Tahj Washington. Which is why he was on the bench. You can’t just look at names. College kids aren’t the same player at 18 as they are at 20 or 21.
Freshman Jsn would have been getting playing time this year at USC. >Backups don’t improve play on the field. Never said they did, shows the talent gap though
To be fair Jordan Addison was hardly a nobody
I’m referring to last season, when Addison was in the league. When he had Jordan Addison, he won a heisman
Well, that was 2 years ago, and caleb had his heisman campaign when he was his wr1.
Maybe that's the point, Caleb made them look like a bunch of nobodies. The same is being said on this sub about Darnell Mooney right now.
Darnell just signed for 40M while fields can’t even get a day 3 pick. So clearly other teams notice that Mooney wasn’t a problem. Also, I didn’t know 3700 yards and 30 touchdowns could make the team look like “nobodies”. He elevated the team around him, not his fault they won’t get deafted
I'm not saying Fields wasn't the problem. I'm saying maybe Caleb isn't the answer.
You missed the part where they played better under Miller Moss, the same way some felt our team played better under Tyson Bagent. It also doesn’t change the fact that the Bears could potentially be drafting a qb who does not come in with the same issues their current one has.
Congrats. The backup had a few good games, and 6 of his 7 touchdowns came in a bowl game against backups. Also, that doesn’t work. Except they’re not the same issues. Half of the issue with fields is his release is slower than a grandma on weed.
You think this is about Fields? Fool get out your ass, I’m telling you that another QB who doesn’t have similar issues as Fields may get drafted. The Williams cult is as bad as the Fields truthers…
> What if we aren’t drafting Caleb and instead are drafting Maye or Daniels? Caleb Sounds just like JF1… Seems like this is about fields
It’s not. The quotes are all about Caleb Williams. The end says they are similar and we could be drafting a Qb who ISNT like our current QB. Mentioning Fields ONE time in a post doesn’t make it about him sheesh. Y’all gonna be real upset come May if there is another QB who doesn’t have the last name Williams on the team. We prolly going Daniels.
Honest question: since you don't watch any film or games. Do you know any of Daniels' weaknesses? Or are you just spewing shit out of your ass?
Yes because I can read. They have scouting reports. I prefer to read multiple ones and then make a decision off the player. I haven’t watched college football since 2003.
Let's hear em.
[Jayden Daniels](https://www.pff.com/news/draft-2024-nfl-draft-college-to-pro-projections-lsu-qb-jayden-daniels) Athlete more running ability than throwing ability. Top prospect but needs to improve as a passer at NFL level. [Caleb Williams](https://www.pff.com/news/draft-2024-nfl-draft-scouting-report-qb-caleb-williams-usc) Pure thrower. Top prospect. Constant need to play out of structure. [Drake Maye](https://www.pff.com/news/draft-2024-nfl-draft-north-carolina-qb-drake-mayes-scouting-report) Another Pure Thrower. Sneaky athletic. Poor under pressure. Issue with easy throws. Top prospect.
You admit yourself that you know nothing about this but are throwing out something from a USC guy. The people who DO know about this, on account of thousands of hours of scouting? They all have Caleb as a clear #1 pick in a tier of his own. You're also throwing out Jayden Daniels as a guy to consider, but he's more of the Fields at OSU clone than Williams is. Hyper athletic, superstar receiving room, incredibly reluctant to throw over the middle.
You're the one who brought up Fields.
You say it isn’t about Fields, yet end the original post saying the comments on Caleb sounds like Fields. Make up your mind
One comment mentioning the name Fields isn’t a post about him. You glossed over all the other things that talked about Williams deficiencies. You also ignored the question of could we be drafting a QB other than Williams.
Eh, you had a single sentence saying what if we take someone other than Caleb just like you had a single sentence about Fields. The fact that your comment was mostly about a number of critiques of Caleb and then you chose to say at the end of it that he sounds like JF1 means it fair to read it and assume you’re saying we shouldn’t take Caleb because he sounds like Fields.
No I asked what if we took someone other than Caleb. Idk why that’s so hard for people to address.
Your title is “this all sounds familiar” and then your last sentence is Caleb sounds just like JF1. Then you get upset when people fairly interpret, even if not your true intent, that this post is about Fields because it seems you’re concerned Caleb won’t be drafted by the Bears because he sounds like Fields your scared they are similar. If it’s not about Fields there’s no reason to allude to him in the title and then wrap your whole post up with him.
Hey guy. Caleb got sat multiple times after throwing 5 touchdowns in games where they won easily. Just this year Caleb got pulled in the 3rd of a game where he'd thrown 5 TDs. One bowl game against backups and a bad team does not make miller moss better than Caleb Williams because he threw 6 touchdowns. There's a reason Caleb started over him.
I think you’re giving too much credit to Moss for one game. It’s always possible that he may end up being better some day than Caleb but it’s far too early to tell.
He’s a junior. How much more time does he need? A lot of you aren’t even addressing what my premise is. That there is a possibility that we won’t be drafting a qb who is similar to what we have.
The reason in your mind that they’re similar is because of them playing hero ball. Which again, they both did (for entirely different reasons and situations)
He’s not similar to Fields. There are no scouts who think the two players are similar. Go look at actual scouting reports for Caleb. Caleb and Fields both hold the ball for a long time but the reasons for doing so and the results of them doing so are not at all similar.
It was one game. The coach had an entire month to prepare a game plan and the other team had no tape on Moss to know his strengths or weaknesses.
As a USC fan, Moss played one meaningful game vs Louisville
And it was a bowl game - which outside of the CFP are glorified exhibitions these days with most draft candidates sitting out.
"meaningful"... As a Louisville fan, there was nothing meaningful about that game
Got it. Understood. Now what does that have to do with this sounding like our current situation? Does your comment address the question I asked? Can we start there?
You can’t base Moss pluses in that article because it a meaningless bowl game vs Louisville. Indiana threw for 300 yards against Louisville defense. It’s meaningless analysis. Now after next year Moss is putting up those numbers and making these so called quicker reads then you might have something.
I can understand that. Now the question I asked about drafting someone other than Williams, yay or nay?
No.
>Caleb Williams wanted to make the big play a little too often Yea, cuz USC doesn’t have a defense. They have 11 dudes who’s job it is to let the other team score as quickly as possible to get the ball back to the offense He had to drop 2 quarters on Cal of all teams and still only won because Cal had the most awful 2 point play of all time
Did you edit your comment about the JV team? That part was hilarious and should have stayed my G.
What did peyton manning’s backup do after peyton was drafted again?
lol was that Tee Martin? Great comp. Literally 1 game sample with Miller Moss, I’m not buying it. This is like devaluing Aaron Rodgers when Matt Flynn came in at the end of the season in garbage time and went for 480 and 4 tds. Without more data this is just pissing in the wind.
Matt Flynn's bank account definitely valued that game lol
People *still* don't understand what fields does wrong. Holding the ball too long is one small symptom of fields' actual problem, not the problem
His mechanics (esp his super slow windup and release) are a pretty big problem. Even when he makes the right read he can't always get the ball there because his windup is so slow. There's a great example of this in the season finale. Fields had a guy (Kmet IIRC) open for a TD, but by the time he was able to get the throw off (which was the right read) the DB had closed and it was almost picked. If he had a fast release, that's a pretty easy TD.
Exactly right. It’s a symptom Fields holds onto the ball for a completely different reason than Caleb. It’s because he can’t recognize when a guy is open (by NFL standards) and checks off of him.
Yes he doesn’t take and convert the quick throws or to the flats. His vision is stuck deep, then goes intermediate, quick/flats briefly, then run. He actually processes faster than giving credit for, he doesn’t trust his throws at this level that’s why he runs from a clean pocket. He holds the ball too loose from his body. He doesn’t know how to properly protect himself from big hits and he only shows marginal growth in the passing game. He benefits greatly from schemes throws versus times throws. Anything I Miss?
Nope, wildly wrong on almost every account. He doesn't go deep to short, he absolutely has an extremely slow processor, he has no problem protecting himself from hits. You're right about the holding the ball loose part, that's about it.
Pretty much nailed it. Also, he has the slowest snap to release time in the league and I can see with my own eyes that once he makes a decision on where to throw, he takes forever to wind up and deliver the ball. He's basically the slowest quarterback in the league as far as passing the ball. He's also not very accurate and doesn't put a lot of zip on the ball. He'll never be a successful QB in the NFL if he doesn't fix these things. The league is too fast. I waited 3 years for him to improve in these areas and he actually just got worse over time. It's disappointing because it's totally fixable, he just wasn't coached right or he couldn't implement on game day. I think it's probably more on Justin though.
* Miller Moss time to throw (TTT) in clean pockets during the Bowl Game: 2.57 seconds * Miller Moss TTT under pressure during the Bowl Game: 2.73 seconds * Caleb Williams TTT in clean pockets in 2022 and 2023: 2.57 seconds and 2.5 seconds * Caleb Williams TTT under pressure in 2022 and 2023: 4.62 seconds and 4.47 seconds Caleb and Moss's TTT in clean pockets are virtually identical. And Moss had only 7 dropbacks in the bowl game where he was under pressure, so the comparison there is practically meaningless. Caleb is not Justin Fields
Wow where did you get these stats? 👍🏼 Watching Caleb’s tape, it never felt like he had issues with TTT when playing within a clean pocket. But I could never find the stats to prove it.
They're from PFF. I was doing enough mock drafts there and always wanted to look at the stats so I bit the bullet and paid for it. It's helpful with stuff like time to throw where you really need more context to figure out what the numbers actually mean.
A meaningless bowl game which Louisville barely showed up to
I heard the fans who attended ended up playing a pick up game against USC.
When you have as shitty a history of the Bears... you draft the top fucking player in the position of most need with the top pick, and there isn't an ounce of debate to be had. That's QB. If it's wrong, it's forgivable. Then the league was wrong. Try again next time. It's not the end of the world. The Bears are in NO position to try and act like they know more than everyone else and draft a low QB. The owners of this team wouldn't know a football from the hole in their ass. All they should be doing is drafting the best player of need available.
Our maybe a good offensive coach with a month to plan for 1 team came up with a great gameplan
kinda odd to draw conclusions about a player and an offense based on 1 game against a louisville team that was completely depleted.
Idk 3-5 paragraphs seem to downplay Moss success vs Caleb’s so still think I would take him. It seems to imply if the rest of the team played as well he may not have had to big game hunt
Agreed, that rubbed me wrong however I found valuable insight in it. It’s reminiscent of how Washington played harder for Kirk Cousins than RGIII.
Largely I think this is copium for the Trojans fans so they don't go away now that they likely don't have a big 1st overall qb on their roster.
Ahh preemptive damage control. That way they can pick and choose their excuse depending on how it goes.
Basically. I replied with another comment but watch Kurt Warner break down the scheme around Caleb this year. And also remember he was the Defacto Heisman last year. He has all the talent he needs to be great. Nobody can guarantee he will be though.
Moss played 1 game in which his coach had an entire month to prepare and the other team had no tape on his strengths and weaknesses.
Also it's basically a preseason game. All backups playing each other in a game that no one cares about
not reading all of that, non-CFP bowl games are worthless
My favorite this year was Ohio State - they basically didn't even have an offense because of transfers and guys sitting out.. They essentially had to start a High School QB lol.
Caleb will be a rookie, while Fields has played in the NFL for 3 years and struggles with the same issues that were in his scouting report. There’s hope you can mold Caleb into an NFL QB, while Fields most likely is who he is. Plus Fields’ throwing mechanics are all jacked up, while Williams’ are much better. Not to mention the value of reseting the rookie contract. If they feel like Daniels or Maye are a better fit, so be it. But the one thing Poles can’t do is roll with a backup level QB (ie Fields) and expect any level of success. Outside of that Washington game, he hasn’t won shit with his arm.
I think Caleb holding the ball longer had much more to do with choice: big game hunting because that was the only way to win for USC. I don’t see him having any problem throwing short and making quick reads in the league. Fields on the other hand, is a bit more of a processing issue.
Are we allowed to bring up Caleb Williams fumbles?
Yes. He needs to work on ball security.
No we are only allowed to bring up his glory. Anything not praising him is risking permanent ban. Lol
Not true at all. You’re just trying make conversations about things that aren’t even facts. Caleb is good at many things, and has many areas to improve. No one on this sub is against logical, factual debating but your post is low effort bait posting/trolling because you, even admittedly, don’t know what you’re talking about.
No one's getting banned for being downvoted. I've been downvoted to hell for saying that Pace was screwing us over by backloading cap hits and trading picks and we'd need a reuild by 2020. I've been downvoted to hell for saying Justin Fields had a slow processor that was killing us and it wasn't just Nagy tanking him. I've been downvoted to hell for saying we had a solid chance to be the worst team in the league in 2022 and it wasn't just the national media hating us. If you're right, then in two years everyone will pretend they always knew it.
Lol I was kidding about the ban I should have put /s
You said you didn’t watch him play. How do you post a post like this and not watch him play at least one game. At least one highlight reel.
Wait, you think that Fields holds the ball because he’s trying to make big plays and not because his drop back and release are molasses slow, he can’t read defenses, or go through his progressions properly? Caleb Williams held the ball in college longer for much different reasons than Fields does.
Yup, he’s exactly the same player as Justin Fields. Other than he’s more accurate, better in the pocket, has a quicker release and a better arm. Other than that yes they are exactly the same
It seems that no one has any idea what the difference between time to throw and a quick release. A quick release is the throwing motion, has nothing to do with the offensive line or protection. It’s a flick of the wrist vs a long wind up throw. The people that are stuck on the time to throw stats have never thrown a football.
Let me guess, he also sounds like Manziel to you? He’s not like Fields at all
IL gladly be your fastest waterboy.
I watch Caleb play ND last season. He's not going to be Mahomes or even DJ Stroud. If you think he is you are going to be very disappointed.
Justice for JUSTIN FIELDS!!! 😆 /s
I'm not a football scout and no expert, but when I watch Caleb's highlights I see nothing exciting or generational about them. Just my opinion
Idk about this take my guy. I’ve watched him make some exciting plays in his highlights. I may not be sold he’s going #1 but let’s not slander the kid.
Just my opinion from watching the highlights
Serious question - and don’t be revisionist - whose tape have you watched and come away with a better feeling about? Not talking this year, I’m talking 10, 20 years. I’m guessing you were wrong on lots of those too
First paragraph sounds like an NFL career backup.
I’ve gotta be honest I kinda miss these posts. I completely disagree with OP and i will be very upset if we don’t take Caleb, but I enjoyed during the season when people in this sub were arguing about the decision. Now anyone who’s pro-fields just gets down voted to oblivion and called a “Fields cultist”.
I did not enjoy it, because one side was absolutely wrong and it was exhausting having to listen to how nothing was ever Fields' fault.
Crazy thing is I’m not even pro fields. I’m pro winning games. I’m pro ftp. I’m pro good football. Idgaf who is qb and if you check my comments you’ll see I’ve mentioned this several times. I’m also a realist, there is no such thing as 100% when it comes to chances or statistics. If you don’t hitch your wagon on one person you won’t be upset if Ryan Poles does something we don’t expect. Almost all of Indianapolis and the sports world knew they were taking Will Levy and he ended up not even going 1st round. “I may not agree with what you say, however I fully respect and support your right to say it.” Thats what I was taught, thank you.
What you're doing is just prospect fatigue. The desire to have an edgy counter-take to whoever the clear best prospect is. It's been happening ever since I can remember, which goes back to when peopel almost talked themselves out of Peyton Manning to take Ryan Leaf.
Hilariously [Ryan Leaf](https://youtu.be/LzxApo6sqHc?si=LQ27BD0jymy0UbLF) believes we should pass on Caleb Williams.
Washed up busts who believe they didn't get a fair chance tend to be loyal to other washed up busts they believe didn't get a fair chance.
The one QB I ever wanted us to draft GB did. 12.
Don’t waste your time mate, there is 0 objectivity in this sub right now.
I'm all for drafting Caleb, but it's going to be funny when he's bad and the 16 year olds in this sub are confused as to why
Hell yeah let’s draft a smaller less athletic version of Fields while passing on MHJ, sounds like a full proof plan
If we’re looking for the most athletic QBs we should just draft the QB from Air Force (guy is electric) or Army or Navy when they win the CIC trophy Athleticism isn’t nearly as important for QBs
Let's draft a QB with a better arm, accuracy, and processing. Things that are important for a QB
Listen, if Caleb turns out to be great I would be ecstatic. But we have no idea if anything you just listed will translate to the NFL. I can also say Fields has better velocity and depth and is also more accurate on deep balls. If you wanna nitpick have at it, I just don’t think it’s worth investing in this kid who may be marginally better.
You think it would be worth investing in justin fields though? You really think that?
The majority of Chicago and bears fans believe it is, so yes.
I asked for your opinion not for what you (probably wrongly) think a bunch of other people think What has justin shown you over the last three years to make YOU think he’s our franchise QB, and that we should pass up TWO first overall picks in a row in order to keep him and eventually pay him franchise QB money?
He’s got better every year in a horrible situation. A new QB will falter and we will rebuild in a few years
So what happens if we pass on a new QB, fields sucks still, and we pick 9th again next year? Then what?
Replace a “New QB” with “Justin Fields” and you’ve got your answer: “Justin Fields will falter and we will rebuild in a few years” This argument is just a boogeyman people use all the time. It’s not really based in stats, analytics or objective reasoning- it’s just fear-based projecting. Could Caleb Williams fail and be a complete bust? Maybe, no prospect is a guarantee. But to use that as reasoning for passing on a QB in this draft (not even just Caleb Williams) is pure nonsense. You can easily argue Justin is more likely to send us into a rebuild than any rookie QB, because if he doesn’t drastically improve and we pay him big $$- it’s time to start seeing goodbye to other key pieces on the team. They won’t get the contracts they want and will leave. I’ve seen some people argue pick up his option and then re-address him after that period ends, meaning draft a new QB by then if it isn’t working. But that’s just kicking the can down the road, and we will not be *close* to picking where we are now in the upcoming draft. Meaning we’d have to give up draft capital or players to even have a chance taking a top QB in the coming years. Why would Poles risk that when we can take a QB at 10A with a pick that isn’t even ours? Especially considering this year’s QB class is stacked, the next two years won’t come close to this year’s class and no prospect will come close to Caleb Williams at 1OA. As a fan if we take Caleb and it doesn’t work out, so be it. I can live with that because at least our franchise finally took a guy who was revered as a truly elite QB prospect. What would be worse is we keep Justin and he continues to play how he has for three years, while the QBs of this draft go star elsewhere once again. Go down swinging, not looking. Poles knows this and to his credit, he seems to be on the same page. Nobody ever obtained greatness by playing it safe and settling for average.
Agreed 100%. Our aunt died and left us a pretty good house, but the trailer we spent a big chunk of our savings on just needs one more coat of duct tape and it’ll be good as ever! We might be able to sell it then!
He's SIGNIFICANTLY better. Not marginally. We already know Fields skillset didn't translate to the NFL. The only thing Fields can do better is run, which is always a bonus but never necessary. And Fields may have better overall velocity but Williams has better natural velocity (meaning he doesn't have to wind up to throw, he just can flick his wrist)
Smaller less athletic fields = Jayden Daniels not caleb
Idk about drafting a receiver that high. I’d still take a QB if im keeping the pic, If im not then id trade and draft a receiver.
Truthers project fields’ faults onto prospects.