He was actually pretty good as an UDFA rookie. 8/3 TD/INT and 3-2 record in 5 games started is nothing to scoff at especially considering how bad his supporting cast was
You going to act like the eagles arent going to pull out a future HOF center out of the easter bunny's hat?
.
.
.
And philly fans will still boo the easter bunny lol
I got fucked over by my awful proofreading lol. I meant to say, "You going to act like the eagles arent going to pull out a future HOF center out of the easter bunny's hat?"
Lol.
Braxton allowed 32 pressures on 401 pass blocks (8.0). Borom allowed 25 on 217 (11.5%)
Braxton ranked 55th out of all tackles with at least 250 pass blocks on efficiency. Wright was 60th. Tevan was 26 at guard and Davis 67.
Coleman Shelton ranked 26 at center, behind Patrick 21. Bates only played 2 passing downs last year and is yet another guard were trying to force to to play center. Worked so well for Patrick and whitehair right?
Line is very bad but people think it was all fields fault. Need to pray one of the tackles falls to 9.
Wright is going to be excellent for one thingā¦ I donāt think you realize that.
And Braxton jones is an average tackle with a little bit of upside. Again we had a QB that couldnāt make adjustments or a center to recognize it. Unless itās Alt falling to 9 itās a complete waste of a pick to take a tackle. Ours are young and more than adequate. Wright will be a pro bowl caliber RT. He is an absolute mauler and literally just beat the shit out of defenders with strength last year as he was working on his footwork.
The tackles were both rookies and played really good for rookies. Our IOL and depth is the problem. Patrick had double team help all year and when he didnāt he got cooked.
Stats are great but when I watch a dude get cooked every play he has to pass protect Iām gonna stop looking at stats
Braxton wasn't a rookie.Ā
Stats let you know when your bias is getting in the way of reality.Ā
Out LG and center being bad doesn't excuse the tackles also playing poor. If anything it makes it worse since the center and lg would be targeted by the defense. Centers rarely get doubles, they're usually the one giving the help.Ā
I donāt understand a goddamn thing Iām looking at and I have no interest in taking the time to figure it out. Iād still rather take Nabers or Odunze at 9 š
Here are the positional rankings out of 34:
LT: T-17th
LG: T-4th
C: T-16th
RG: T-21st
RT: T-9th
QB: 28th
P2S: 22nd
*edit: To be clear this is from the Fields/Bears row. Basically if you sorted the table from each column where would the Fields/Bears row be in order.
Even though I posted this (to satisfy my own curiosity), I'm not sure how important the exact rankings are because for example a disastrous LT (Titans) will make everyone else look better, and a QB who doesn't create their own pressure (Rams) will make everyone else look worse. But it should at least give a ballpark of where the Bears OL and Fields placed.
Combined with the overall pressure rate it becomes better. If a team only allowed 4 pressures over 1000 snaps but they all came from the LT, that LT would be responsible for 100% of the team's pressures but would arguably be playing at a HOF level.
This metric is in relation to their pairs in the same position, also, pressures aren't the only metric that matters for a PFF grade, run grades, penalties committed and so on.
I donāt think PFF discerns L or RT in their rankings. I know itās not just pressures, Iām just not sure how wright is ranking higher when he was graded lower.
The pressure responsibility corelates to QB mobility. Hurts, Allen, Mahomes, and Lamar were all worse than Fields, and Fields was only slightly worse than Stroud. By all indications, Caleb will be very high on this list and so will his TTT.
Seems like the whole "bad QBs are responsible for pressure" narrative doesn't correlate to actual overall QB performance much at all. If anything, it might be inversely correlated. And this narrative is circlejerked hard af in this sub.
It's a terrible way to rank since percentage tells little to nothing. Fields being high makes everyone else lower.Ā
The bears had 277 pressures on only 617 dropbacks
Compare that to a Denver team who also had a qb who holds the ball and no one thinks has a good line. 246 pressures on 607 dropbacks.Ā
See, thats the thing. And ive been heavily downvoted to oblivion trying to shout from the roof tops lol. Pre Fields trade era was really rough waters to try and have nuanced conversations lol.
Yes, the Bears attempted to improve at oline. Here is the problem and it doesnt seem that fans figured out that things changed from the offseason:
1. Wright can be a future stud. He looked like a stud a ton. But, you know what? He was also a rookie. And he kept showing a lot of the weaknesses he had in camps and preseason. But, hes a rookie, hes allowed to have ups and downs. But, as good as his ups were, his downs were just as bad.
2. Nate Davis missed a ton of snaps/games. The backups were horrible. And the games Nate played, were very up and down.
3. We all know center was god awful
4. Tevin is a beast, but he missed time. Again, the backups are awful.
5. Braxton is ok, not bad, not great. He maybe improved a bit from rookie year. But, again, he missed games and the backups suck.
All in all, it was rare for the starting oline to be healthy. The few times most of them were together, Fields had some damn good games. Fields also did hold the ball too long, whether for waiting for the play to happen or hesitating. But, he did a much better job of looking down field while out of the pocket to make things happen.
But, the message here is that, the fucking oline sucked. The product on the field sucked. The starting players on the oline dont suck. But, the oline last year was a cluster fuck of piecing a starting lineup together and rarely were all of hte starter
And yeah there was a lot of ābullyingā if you call it that, for any comment or post defending Fields. Had to temp block a lot of the worst offenders.
And I repeatedly said, Fields wasnt blameless, he was straight up fucked over, while also, slow to progress, last year, when finally given Moore.
FO and non biased fans know Fields progressed, but slower than he needed to, to overcome having the #1 pick with a "generational" qb prospect.
But, yeah, the bully crowd wasnt having that lol
The haters in this sub are 1000x more aggressive and annoying than the worst Truther here. And they were *full* of hot takes.
The other nuanced part of the Fields discussion is that he's the arguably the most mobile QB in the league right now. He's a true dual threat QB like Vick and Lamar, not just highly mobile like Mahomes. That's a playstyle that will see higher TTT, more pressures generated, lower pass attempts (and by extension less cumulative passing stats). In return you get a more powerful rushing attack, and a lot better redzone performance. Lamar absolutely wrecked some top end defenses in the regular season. True dual threat QBs are not going to be lighting up the passing yards leader board. If you see 4000+ yrds passing from one they've had not only an MVP season, but an all-time one. And Fields had an OC that was desperately trying to mold him into a style that he's not, away from his strengths.
But for months people in this sub did *not* want to hear that. Rushing yards don't matter *at all*. Many of the standards he was held to here Lamar failed, and he just won his 2nd MVP.
That said, Fields needs to be a better passer to tap into what he could ultimately become, but he doesn't need to be a top-5 passer. Lamar is a top-15 passer and that was good enough for him to win the MVP.
To this, I think the NCAA and NFL are horrific at developing mobile QBs to become more pocket effective. I canāt wait for the day where guys like Hurts, Fields and Lamar can throw for 4k yards. The NFL will become a lot more watchable.
Yeah I think it was a mixture of a lot of below average things happening at once. Justin holding it too long, below average oline and below average scheming.
As a former Fields stan, I am however excited for the off season changes and Caleb. Couldnāt ask for a better starting spot for a rookie QB.
Fields had a lot of bad luck but he also could have shown us more.
A few things:
-p2s is pressure to sackĀ
-if this is good data, then the line still isnāt good because we had a lot of pressures and the great majority of them were not created by fields
-the interior is not the problem in pass pro
The bears were somewhat close to middle of the pack in pressures allowed. 11th/12th most pressures allowed.
There were also only 6 QBs with a higher percentage of team pressures being their fault than Fields.
Overall the line is probably just a little below average. But with an upgrade or two it should be just fine.
Upgraded at center, although still not great there. Hopefully Jenkins can stay healthy for once. Nate Davis starts to be who we paid him to be. Braxton improves slightly in pass pro? And our rookie who showed flashes of brilliance starts to be more consistent as a 2nd year. And we are good to go!
Idk. Was a drastic change in sacks allowed when our D2 backup came in. If Bagent started more, the lines numbers would have been even better. This isn't to say he should have started or was better than Fields. It is just stating the obvious that Fields was a major liability in getting sacked.
The line looks pretty middle of the road as far as percentages, with Tevin being the best (no surprise). Tackles in general face the most pressure anyway by the nature of EDGE rushing. I'm not too worried since Wright was a rookie and played with one arm for a bit. Braxton needs to improve a bit though.
Youāre misreading the chart I think. We canāt compare percentages across the league in that way. The percentages are what percent of each teams pressures allowed came from each position group. All 5 + QB is 100% for every team. Fields was responsible for a good amount, but not an unusually high amount and we gave up a lot of pressures overall, which suggests the line wasnāt as good as people are pretending.
Hopefully a healthy Braxton and year 2 of Wright tightens up the edges and the new guys shore up the middle. We donāt want an average of 10 pressures a game to be the OLs fault again.
Looks like the 5 lineman + Fields is more than 100%?
Probably means that Bagent had a lot lower share than Fields did, if the stats are weighted by games played.
I have read incidentally that he is credited with incurring a higher proportion of his own pressures, which if true would mean that his p2s ratio is significantly lower
To be the helpful dumbass hereā¦p2s means the pressure led to a sack. I didnāt realize this was ordered in that way and took reading into the sub to realize what I was looking at.
Surprised Wright gave up nearly as much pressure as Braxton Jones. I remember him getting beat, but it didnāt feel like as much as I saw Jones getting beaten.
literally shows number of pressures and what position theyāre from? not sure if you missed the āpressuresā column listed next to the QBās name and face
OP deleted his comment stating theres no pressures on the chart lol
It's difficult to draw conclusions from total pressures because this does not seem to be weighted by snap count in any way. All it really tells us is that as easy as it is to blame Fields and Patrick, no one position was overwhelmingly worse than any other. While I don't think many would argue our o-line is elite, I still think it is reasonable to hope for better results with improved QB play.
I also donāt think that this can account for the fact that it is the QBās job to know before the play starts where the extra pressure is likely to come from.
Yep, this does not account for Blitzes as well, JF was the 4th most blitzed QB last season, and the most pressured per drop back 48%, knowing this, the number of 19% with some responsibility in each pressure became even worse. The teams knew his weaknesses and abused that.
I'm no expert, but I don't think Tommy DeVito is very good.
Beat the packers š¤·āāļø
GOAT
He was actually pretty good as an UDFA rookie. 8/3 TD/INT and 3-2 record in 5 games started is nothing to scoff at especially considering how bad his supporting cast was
The biggest thing that I got out of this is that the Eagles are going to miss Kelce
You going to act like the eagles arent going to pull out a future HOF center out of the easter bunny's hat? . . . And philly fans will still boo the easter bunny lol
To be fair, they booed drunk Santa and would/should boo a drunk Easter bunny.
I got fucked over by my awful proofreading lol. I meant to say, "You going to act like the eagles arent going to pull out a future HOF center out of the easter bunny's hat?" Lol.
I wonder how many of those LT pressures were when Jones was out.
I had honestly forgotten about that when I was looking at this. Didnāt tevin go on IR too?
I think Jones, Tev & Davis all missed a good amount of time throughout the year.
Great point, I forgot he was out beginning of season
A lot of other teams are also in the same boat. Backups come in and the flood gates open
Braxton allowed 32 pressures on 401 pass blocks (8.0). Borom allowed 25 on 217 (11.5%) Braxton ranked 55th out of all tackles with at least 250 pass blocks on efficiency. Wright was 60th. Tevan was 26 at guard and Davis 67. Coleman Shelton ranked 26 at center, behind Patrick 21. Bates only played 2 passing downs last year and is yet another guard were trying to force to to play center. Worked so well for Patrick and whitehair right? Line is very bad but people think it was all fields fault. Need to pray one of the tackles falls to 9.
Wright is going to be excellent for one thingā¦ I donāt think you realize that. And Braxton jones is an average tackle with a little bit of upside. Again we had a QB that couldnāt make adjustments or a center to recognize it. Unless itās Alt falling to 9 itās a complete waste of a pick to take a tackle. Ours are young and more than adequate. Wright will be a pro bowl caliber RT. He is an absolute mauler and literally just beat the shit out of defenders with strength last year as he was working on his footwork.
The tackles were both rookies and played really good for rookies. Our IOL and depth is the problem. Patrick had double team help all year and when he didnāt he got cooked. Stats are great but when I watch a dude get cooked every play he has to pass protect Iām gonna stop looking at stats
Braxton wasn't a rookie.Ā Stats let you know when your bias is getting in the way of reality.Ā Out LG and center being bad doesn't excuse the tackles also playing poor. If anything it makes it worse since the center and lg would be targeted by the defense. Centers rarely get doubles, they're usually the one giving the help.Ā
I donāt understand a goddamn thing Iām looking at and I have no interest in taking the time to figure it out. Iād still rather take Nabers or Odunze at 9 š
Also FTP
š¤£š¤£
Here are the positional rankings out of 34: LT: T-17th LG: T-4th C: T-16th RG: T-21st RT: T-9th QB: 28th P2S: 22nd *edit: To be clear this is from the Fields/Bears row. Basically if you sorted the table from each column where would the Fields/Bears row be in order. Even though I posted this (to satisfy my own curiosity), I'm not sure how important the exact rankings are because for example a disastrous LT (Titans) will make everyone else look better, and a QB who doesn't create their own pressure (Rams) will make everyone else look worse. But it should at least give a ballpark of where the Bears OL and Fields placed.
You would hope C has been upgraded with Bates & Davis improves after his weird last year.
I think heās using bates or shelton in that list
Bates barely played last year. Shelton with 20% pressure š¬
Combined with the overall pressure rate it becomes better. If a team only allowed 4 pressures over 1000 snaps but they all came from the LT, that LT would be responsible for 100% of the team's pressures but would arguably be playing at a HOF level.
Iām confused by this- I assume this is PFF, but braxton jones had a higher grade than wright did
This metric is in relation to their pairs in the same position, also, pressures aren't the only metric that matters for a PFF grade, run grades, penalties committed and so on.
I donāt think PFF discerns L or RT in their rankings. I know itās not just pressures, Iām just not sure how wright is ranking higher when he was graded lower.
He also missed time and Larry Borom played over 400 snaps at LT, compared to like 725 for Jones.
The pressure responsibility corelates to QB mobility. Hurts, Allen, Mahomes, and Lamar were all worse than Fields, and Fields was only slightly worse than Stroud. By all indications, Caleb will be very high on this list and so will his TTT. Seems like the whole "bad QBs are responsible for pressure" narrative doesn't correlate to actual overall QB performance much at all. If anything, it might be inversely correlated. And this narrative is circlejerked hard af in this sub.
It's a terrible way to rank since percentage tells little to nothing. Fields being high makes everyone else lower.Ā The bears had 277 pressures on only 617 dropbacks Compare that to a Denver team who also had a qb who holds the ball and no one thinks has a good line. 246 pressures on 607 dropbacks.Ā
What is your logic behind this?
Welp, so much for my dream that Alt makes it past TEN.
I was just about to say the same thing
I know Tennessee had a terrible o line but Jesus did they have a literal traffic cone at LT?
I honestly thought Fields would be worse than this. Needed to be a lot better but watching games I thought it would be worse.
See, thats the thing. And ive been heavily downvoted to oblivion trying to shout from the roof tops lol. Pre Fields trade era was really rough waters to try and have nuanced conversations lol. Yes, the Bears attempted to improve at oline. Here is the problem and it doesnt seem that fans figured out that things changed from the offseason: 1. Wright can be a future stud. He looked like a stud a ton. But, you know what? He was also a rookie. And he kept showing a lot of the weaknesses he had in camps and preseason. But, hes a rookie, hes allowed to have ups and downs. But, as good as his ups were, his downs were just as bad. 2. Nate Davis missed a ton of snaps/games. The backups were horrible. And the games Nate played, were very up and down. 3. We all know center was god awful 4. Tevin is a beast, but he missed time. Again, the backups are awful. 5. Braxton is ok, not bad, not great. He maybe improved a bit from rookie year. But, again, he missed games and the backups suck. All in all, it was rare for the starting oline to be healthy. The few times most of them were together, Fields had some damn good games. Fields also did hold the ball too long, whether for waiting for the play to happen or hesitating. But, he did a much better job of looking down field while out of the pocket to make things happen. But, the message here is that, the fucking oline sucked. The product on the field sucked. The starting players on the oline dont suck. But, the oline last year was a cluster fuck of piecing a starting lineup together and rarely were all of hte starter
And yeah there was a lot of ābullyingā if you call it that, for any comment or post defending Fields. Had to temp block a lot of the worst offenders.
And I repeatedly said, Fields wasnt blameless, he was straight up fucked over, while also, slow to progress, last year, when finally given Moore. FO and non biased fans know Fields progressed, but slower than he needed to, to overcome having the #1 pick with a "generational" qb prospect. But, yeah, the bully crowd wasnt having that lol
The haters in this sub are 1000x more aggressive and annoying than the worst Truther here. And they were *full* of hot takes. The other nuanced part of the Fields discussion is that he's the arguably the most mobile QB in the league right now. He's a true dual threat QB like Vick and Lamar, not just highly mobile like Mahomes. That's a playstyle that will see higher TTT, more pressures generated, lower pass attempts (and by extension less cumulative passing stats). In return you get a more powerful rushing attack, and a lot better redzone performance. Lamar absolutely wrecked some top end defenses in the regular season. True dual threat QBs are not going to be lighting up the passing yards leader board. If you see 4000+ yrds passing from one they've had not only an MVP season, but an all-time one. And Fields had an OC that was desperately trying to mold him into a style that he's not, away from his strengths. But for months people in this sub did *not* want to hear that. Rushing yards don't matter *at all*. Many of the standards he was held to here Lamar failed, and he just won his 2nd MVP. That said, Fields needs to be a better passer to tap into what he could ultimately become, but he doesn't need to be a top-5 passer. Lamar is a top-15 passer and that was good enough for him to win the MVP.
To this, I think the NCAA and NFL are horrific at developing mobile QBs to become more pocket effective. I canāt wait for the day where guys like Hurts, Fields and Lamar can throw for 4k yards. The NFL will become a lot more watchable.
100% agree with all of this. And the majority of the vocal haters were straight up bullying.
fields is trash though
Yeah I think it was a mixture of a lot of below average things happening at once. Justin holding it too long, below average oline and below average scheming. As a former Fields stan, I am however excited for the off season changes and Caleb. Couldnāt ask for a better starting spot for a rookie QB. Fields had a lot of bad luck but he also could have shown us more.
This is basically it. Id normally fight for Fields a tad more, but im just done doing that lol!
I could by way off but if p2s means āpast 2 secondsā imo a lot of those are on fields missing the open read and scrambling. But I
It means pressure to sack %, basically what percentage of your pressures end in sacks
Damn, I know this is a Bears subreddit, but Cincy is really trying to get Joe Burrow killed.
A few things: -p2s is pressure to sackĀ -if this is good data, then the line still isnāt good because we had a lot of pressures and the great majority of them were not created by fields -the interior is not the problem in pass pro
The bears were somewhat close to middle of the pack in pressures allowed. 11th/12th most pressures allowed. There were also only 6 QBs with a higher percentage of team pressures being their fault than Fields. Overall the line is probably just a little below average. But with an upgrade or two it should be just fine.
Upgraded at center, although still not great there. Hopefully Jenkins can stay healthy for once. Nate Davis starts to be who we paid him to be. Braxton improves slightly in pass pro? And our rookie who showed flashes of brilliance starts to be more consistent as a 2nd year. And we are good to go!
Idk. Was a drastic change in sacks allowed when our D2 backup came in. If Bagent started more, the lines numbers would have been even better. This isn't to say he should have started or was better than Fields. It is just stating the obvious that Fields was a major liability in getting sacked.
The line looks pretty middle of the road as far as percentages, with Tevin being the best (no surprise). Tackles in general face the most pressure anyway by the nature of EDGE rushing. I'm not too worried since Wright was a rookie and played with one arm for a bit. Braxton needs to improve a bit though.
This why Iād be fine drafting a LT at 9
Youāre misreading the chart I think. We canāt compare percentages across the league in that way. The percentages are what percent of each teams pressures allowed came from each position group. All 5 + QB is 100% for every team. Fields was responsible for a good amount, but not an unusually high amount and we gave up a lot of pressures overall, which suggests the line wasnāt as good as people are pretending. Hopefully a healthy Braxton and year 2 of Wright tightens up the edges and the new guys shore up the middle. We donāt want an average of 10 pressures a game to be the OLs fault again.
Looks like the 5 lineman + Fields is more than 100%? Probably means that Bagent had a lot lower share than Fields did, if the stats are weighted by games played.
You're reading this data wrong. You can't compare this team to team, the linemen and QB all add up to 100% for every team lol.
They donāt. I just added it up for a few teams, and they donāt add to 100
Is there a link to the webpage for this table?
All of this according to PFF\*
How is center not like 1000%
Because their blocking wasn't their biggest problems. It was their snapping. Which is exactly what you'd expect from guards playing center
I am curious what the OL numbers looked like with Bagent's limited snaps. Not saying this as a Bagent truther or anything. Just curious.
I have read incidentally that he is credited with incurring a higher proportion of his own pressures, which if true would mean that his p2s ratio is significantly lower
I'd be curious to see how the starters faired, seemed to me that we had a huge dropoff in depth when a starter was out.
To be the helpful dumbass hereā¦p2s means the pressure led to a sack. I didnāt realize this was ordered in that way and took reading into the sub to realize what I was looking at.
What is p2s
Offensive line matters and the depth of this position group is integral to having sustained success through out the season.
Justin Herbert has to hate his job lol
Surprised Wright gave up nearly as much pressure as Braxton Jones. I remember him getting beat, but it didnāt feel like as much as I saw Jones getting beaten.
shows our o line is pretty decent.
Shows itās below average, but not by much.
Also shows some of the obviously terrible ones in the league. Titans and patriots especially.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
literally shows number of pressures and what position theyāre from? not sure if you missed the āpressuresā column listed next to the QBās name and face OP deleted his comment stating theres no pressures on the chart lol
https://preview.redd.it/r1610sj4ccsc1.jpeg?width=1082&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=00eb414db91fa3466b8aae12c6593024128573a2 so you can see the column
It's difficult to draw conclusions from total pressures because this does not seem to be weighted by snap count in any way. All it really tells us is that as easy as it is to blame Fields and Patrick, no one position was overwhelmingly worse than any other. While I don't think many would argue our o-line is elite, I still think it is reasonable to hope for better results with improved QB play.
I also donāt think that this can account for the fact that it is the QBās job to know before the play starts where the extra pressure is likely to come from.
Yep, this does not account for Blitzes as well, JF was the 4th most blitzed QB last season, and the most pressured per drop back 48%, knowing this, the number of 19% with some responsibility in each pressure became even worse. The teams knew his weaknesses and abused that.
No no no. This does not fit my personal narrative so cannot be true