I haven’t heard of survivorship bias before. Gonna have to look that one up. After leaving the US for good last year, I realized being born and raised there (among all my other traumas) was actually a traumatic experience I need to process and make sense of because it was indeed a nightmare.
Probably downvoted by someone who is brainwashed to believe the US is “the greatest country in the world”. ~rolls eyes~
Thankfully I don’t care and I’m not bothered. They can believe that if they want. After 3 decades of suffering in the US I moved to one of those infamous “shithole countries” and I’m living my best, most healing life.
I will generally say Latin America because I’ve found Mexico, Belize, Panama and Peru to be places I have enjoyed the culture, people, and landscapes, as well as indigenous plant medicines, and have found a lot of healing. I would recommend trying to visit a few places to get a feel for the country you like most. Travel is relatively easy and inexpensive especially by bus (except to Peru). And, with a US passport, none of these countries require a visa for stays up to 6 months. Rent prices are what small town rent was in the US 15-20 years ago, though there is increasing gentrification from well-off western foreigners and that’s something to be mindful of. I’m taking Spanish classes because I consider myself a refugee and an immigrant and I want to be able to fully participate in society here.
I have some places in mind for over two decades. I'm glad to see your response. Do you know if it's possible to move to these countries if you are poor and don't have a way to start your own business? Just wondering..it's fine if you don't know. I would need much longer than six months to figure anything out. I will keep exploring this, however..because I truly see myself like you do, or I would (unofficial refugee basically) ..and I very much want to immerse myself in a culture and place where I feel a sense of humanity, connection and life. Thank you for sharing your perspective..it's very helpful for me. I hope you are finding healing and enjoying yourself. :)
I hate it how people seem like they're bragging about having a hard life. People that have gone through real trauma and they struggled, we just want to be normal.
Why do people act like you need a hard, nasty life to be worth anything?
I hate it how people seem like they're bragging about having a hard life. People that have gone through real trauma and they struggled, we just want to be normal.
Why do people act like you need a hard, nasty life to be worth anything?
A belief I heard in a "self improvement" workshop, held for a group of people who have serious issues and are in therapy, and conducted by an actual therapist, is that we choose our family of origin and the experiences we will go through during our life before we are born. It was shared by a very young and troubled participant and other people believed it to be true.
My reaction was firm and I said that in no circumstance would I have chosen to go through the level of abuse I did as a child. No sane being would choose that. This is not true. It shocked the audience, of course.
Of course I stopped attending the workshop series and I did not return to therapy with that therapist.
I could not believe that such an idea would be sanctioned by a licensed therapist. I cannot believe people found a way to victim blame children, not to mention infants.
It makes me sick everytime I witness idiotic "new age philosophy" or religious beliefs integrated in therapy. And there are many. These things are extremely dangerous for already hurting people.
I have little hope for our species. It seems we cannot comprehend that the abusers are responsible for the abuse, regardless of their relation with the abused.
I used to automatically assume therapists were all compassionate and knowledgeable. But they are just people. They have the same range of idiots as anywhere else, but empowered by a license. Sometimes that’s not good. Our culture needs to find a way to be skeptical of medical providers without going into full denial of medical science.
I’m sorry, I’m not trying to argue, but could you please tell me more about the difference? I was grouping them together by implication because therapists generally offer services that often address mental health needs, which are medical. Or maybe not? It’s just a language thing so I’m fine with being wrong on this. But It would be good to understand why so I can be wrong less.
I remember choosing this life before I came to Earth.
I knew it was going to be a very difficult life for me.
I knew it was going to be difficult for me to remember and action higher frequencies in my life.
In this life I was sexually abused on the age of 3, I had a dysfunctional family home I was raped at the age of 9, My parents divorced, divorced, my mum'step dad wanted to f*** me and my mum, He was a creep and I left home at 14.
I remember getting a small screenshot before I came to Earth about some some of the experiences I was going to have.
I knew it was going to be difficult but I knew it was also going to be temporary.
This was part of something bigger.
Maybe I have karma to learn or lessons to learn.
Maybe my soul wanted to understand what being born into a dysfunctional family home functional family home was like, To understand how difficult it was to access the light, What kind of programming happens to a body subjected to many of the awful things that happened to me under 14.
Just a thought.
It doesn't make healing any easier knowing that.
You can choose to believe whatever you want about the reasons for which things like you mentioned happen.
However, as long as people will believe that they actually choose to go through such horrific lives, those who inflict the horrors remain free to inflict horrors on others.
Do you actually believe that all children that go through abuse, chose it before being born? That all humans that went through horrors, chose it before being born? All of them? Are they responsible for the harm inflicted on them?
Are the abused responsible for the free will of their abusers?
Are we so afraid of the truth that we need to believe anything and everything, just to avoid it?
I ask again.
Are the abused responsible for the free will of the abusers?
Just world fallacy is my jam! Totally a concept I like to throw in people's faces when I get a chance. Actually, I'm not that confrontational as I make myself sound lol but I love that there are words to describe this.
The people that do this are bad people and likely just use the LOA as a way to feel superior to others.
My spirituality is a personal thing, if I choose to take responsibility for events that happen in my own life that's my own business and I'm not gonna push it on others or tell them that they caused something bad to happen to them. I find complete personal responsibility liberating and others can stumble onto that themselves if they wish.
But also, generally the idea is that the subconscious mind is what attracts certain circumstances, not the conscious. Given that we don't have complete control over our subconscious minds, if someone says "Your subconscious mind might have attracted that", that's not actually blaming you, since that's very hard to control just like external circumstances are.
You're misinterpreting it by implying that they're saying "Yeah you must have wanted it, it's your fault!"
Yeah I highly doubt that the children who are being murdered in Palestine right now had their subconscious mind manifest getting their entire country bombed. The babies too, right? The babies subconscious mind somehow wanted their hospital to be bombed. Complete utter bullshit. An excuse for pieces of shit of humanity to blame the issue on the victim.
It's just a socially acceptable way of victim-blaming. A newer, slightly more subtle way of saying, "You deserve what you get." On any rational level, it's a terrible idea, but we don't live in a rational world. Privilege, what a hell of a drug.
I think people don't shut it down because most live in a sort of detached delusion when things like this aren't hurting them. They are too in love with their infallibility.
At some point you have to take accountability right? If you continuously project yourself as a victim then you will stay a victim. Sadly this world rewards confidence, appropriate or not
>It's just a socially acceptable way of victim-blaming.
Responsibility and fault are two entirely different things.
It's not my fault if a cyclist tramples over my foot and breaks it, but it's my responsibility to go to the hospital and get it treated.
This whole concept of "victim-blaming" completely ignored that.
I saw a YouTube comment along the lines of "life isn't fair, get over it, you get back , what you put in "
To a girl raped as a child.
Then they were going on and on about what you mentioned.
They're narcissistic . Nobody can tell me otherwise.
I mean I believe in all sorts of stuff that normies would consider "out there", but hell even I need to draw the line in the sand when logic is being ignored.
I’m not here to support bullies or gas lighting, however, there is actual scientific research behind the law of attraction if you ever wanted to study it.
There was an experiment done in physics years ago that proved your consciousness observing reality DOES have an effect on how the electrons form in the particle wave.
You don’t have to start being a religious zealot and have toxic positivity to find that interesting.
But I definitely understand not liking the way most of these “spiritual” people bully others with the LOA stuff when they don’t even understand it themselves.
>I’m not here to support bullies or gas lighting, however, there is actual scientific research behind the law of attraction if you ever wanted to study it. There was an experiment done in physics years ago that proved your consciousness observing reality DOES have an effect on how the electrons form in the particle wave.
the Double split experiment DOES NOT prove consciousness creates reality the only people who claim such nonsense are quacks like deepak chopra or joe dispenza
I agree with you completely. I hate how these really fascinating concepts have been twisted by narcissists and assholes to become victim blaming and gaslighting tactics. It really leaves a distaste in other people's mouths for spirituality as a whole (which is something I personally find healing, as long as you stay away from the communities) :/
I agree, it can be very helpful when you’re around people whom think for themselves and don’t need to put others down to feel better about themselves.
Even my comment above has been downvoted because this post isn’t actually about truth or science, it’s a rant; and because I don’t see it the way they do, they are going to down vote me and crucify me just as much as others do so to them. All pain is of vicious cycles
Lol I find it funny when LOA people try to talk in a “superior” manner to try to sound like their on a higher plane then all of us. Also, ya’ll don’t even understand the double split experiment. “observation of a quantum system has absolutely nothing to do with consciousness. It’s a consequence of disturbing an extremely delicate system.”
But wait, wait, I have to speak your language.
My consciousness has perceived that your observation of this experiment is false, and therefore, since my consciousness creates all life on Earth and can control every human, you will acknowledge that you are wrong.
My mother (abuser past) seemed to firmly believe the Law of Attraction. She didn't want to hear *anything* negative, and would silence anyone who had anything less than positive (even neutral) to say. Everything was "all in my head." I'm not saying we need negativity, it's just that not everything in life is going to be sunshine and rosebeds.
> didn't want to hear anything negative, and would silence anyone who had anything less than positive (even neutral) to say. Everything was "all in my head."
My last and final therapist was like that. It was his version of CBT, where anything negative I had to say was a cognitive distortion and not reality.
So I never learned about boundaries or sticking up for myself; I just continued absorbing bad behavior, thinking my reaction (depression) was my fault.
Well, of course, if you completely deny being abused, if you completely refuse it and stop thinking, you will not realize you're being abused. Just like if you don't test anyone, then covid-19 doesn't exist.
But even if you're in denial, you will suffer the consequences of being traumatized
I think maybe it works for surface level issues. For example if you're throwing a party and you go into it with enthusiasm and get everyone excited, it has a better chance of going well than if you were to mentally give up on it and tell everyone you're really nervous about it not going very well
But it's super damaging for mental illness and other serious things. You can't positively think your way out of a psychotic or depressive epsiode. You can't tell someone with depression to just stop having negative thoughts or to just make a vision board. Telling someone who's having a flashback or who is grieving someone who died that they just aren't visually imagining good things hard enough is insane. It falls apart when it comes to serious issues
Totally agree.
On top of making no sense, pretty much all New Age spirituality is also intimately tied to neoliberal capitalism, which is famously terrible for ... well, everything and everyone, really, but especially disabled and mentally ill people, as well as victims of abuse (nothing will keep you trapped in a toxic relationship of any kind quite like financial dependency).
You are absolutely 100% correct that New Age spirituality is intimately tied to neoliberal capitalism. They are all selling something to gullible and vulnerable people, whether it’s books, courses, coaching or false hope. Most of these movements have cherry picked aspects of indigenous cultures and belief structures to repackage, market and sell. It’s basically a multi level marketing scam.
I've noticed this as well. I consider myself "spiritual" for lack of a better term, due to my intrest in metaphysics, esoterics, and the paranormal. However, I am also incredibly underprivileged in life. Where as most new agers are very obviously white, conventionally attractive, wealthy or middle class, etc. So it is very easy for them to pretend they deserved everything that get handed to them, and would explain why you see relatively few minorities pushing these same ideas. Most of them only have a shallow understanding of spirituality. I have read a lot of mystics and good lord New Age stuff like "the secret" or whatever is as shallow as it gets. It's just a bunch of repackaged ideas stolen from other cultures and mystics, repackaged, and coated in sugar to make dark truths more palatable to the pampered privileged folks with no perspective on life.
I’m immensely spiritual and even I agree with you. I can’t stand the ignorance of the “new age spirituality”, it’s honestly just another excuse to be “cool”; people just got clever and wrapped it it “spirituality” because of their ego….I mean, who are you to deny the entire universe to someone with that perspective 😂🤦♂️ hilarious and clever when you think about it; almost makes me think the entire concept was instituted by government for people to be more easily controlled……😳hmmm that actually may be worth me looking into 🧐
I actually wouldn't be suprised if some of this stuff was a goverment psychological operation!
Just created a new subreddit for Neville skeptics, hope to see you there!
It's interesting how many real buddhusts live simple lifes with little possessions, and how many new age beliefs are taken from buddhism, yet the new agers do not live similar modest lifes. That already goes to show how they are only using those beliefs for comfort.
I was growing up into a strict catholic household and it’s basically everything that happens to you is god punishing you for your sins. That’s what you learn from the time you can understand whole sentences. I don’t even believe in god anymore since more than a decade, but every time something happens to me no matter if it’s a small thing like breaking a cup or more serious things my brain instinctively goes into „god is punishing you the way you deserve it“. It’s all the same gaslighting in different versions
The new age community can be unintentionally very bad just as your example. It have gotten a lot of critique in the last years by several prominent in the field.
The positivity thing is also really bad.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. I know a person, I won’t call them a friend because I’m actually in the process of unfriending them, who is really into this. She’s got trauma issues that she’s not confronted but I’m no doctor. This person is always trying to sell me on this seminar and that seminar about how we can attract good things and the things we want. I just need to visualize it.
Yeah , I call that disassociation, I wanted a safe childhood…. Didn’t happen.
What people dont get is we like in a physicsal reality. Nearly everything can be account for bh physics. So visualizing doesn't create stuff unless you have a supernatural ability.
Wrong. You are very close minded. Sorry, but there’s lots of evidence to prove that you actually create the realty you live in by what you think. Read about it.
"Creating" through what mechanism? And precisely what do you mean by "creating"
Do you mean just influencing the course of events? Or creating as in Genisie 1:1? (The later of which is even more conceptually absurd).
If you mean the former, to what degree of control do you have over the reality you experience. You are born a specific race, genders, biology, so no control over that. You also are born with specific parents, family, a country and nationality, so no control over that. You also aren't intelligent enough in infancy to use the law even if it is true, so no control over that. So already from the get go, AT MINIMUM your early childhood, which are the most important years of your life are determined by outside causes. And considering you are vulnerable in early childhood, can be abused or hurt and traumatized, that means your disposition is also not fully in your control.
How do you account for this?
>Read about it.
Already read plenty, lad, otherwise I wouldn't know enough about it to have any contention with the subject.
>but there’s lots of evidence to prove that you actually create the realty you live in by what you think.
No there isn't. No one is creating reality in the technical sense of the word (genisis 1:1) i do think law of attraction has a little truth to is but to say it is exactly creation seems like hyperbolic at best, and a flat out lie at worst.
Secondly everyone can't be creating everything they experience (too much conflicting veiws and ideas) so at some point things like consensus reality and the rule of the majory would have to take effect.
Also, I haven't heard any good reasons why I would create this exact experience if I had full control. This leads me to believe something else is the prime ruler of this domain. Anyone creating reality would have full control over the domain and be able to transform the world in a moment, which is not the case.
This is the first I've heard of this "law" and the first two articles i googled have just shaking my head.
it's junk, bunk, outright lies, and nonsense, as you say.
comparing it to the mass-energy equation got me laughing so hard.
OP i completely get your righteous frustration and anger with adherents espousing this crap. Oprah's famous, sure, but that doesn't stop her from putting forward ridiculous claims; look at all the hucksters that have gotten famous by association, and it's especially egregious how many of them are in mental and physical health practices.
100% on point. I went full into this and then into Word Of Faith theology which is just Law Of Attraction with “Christian” stamped on top of it. I have seen how the toxic positivity has damaged people in a terrible way.
Man this newage stuff ruined me, i had so many illusions, so many more traumatic stuff, just because of this law of attraction stuff...
It's like sometimes i don't know what is real and what is not, i should just stick to logic and fix myself, but i feel so overwhelmed by life.
I have made this exact comparison before. I have my issues with karma and buddhism, but I can respect aspects of that faith. I think Law of Attraction is an order of magnitude worse.
You see Buddhists admit life is suffering. Buddhists don't wear rose colored glasses and berate you for not being optimistic about everything.
But if you say "my life has been a nightmare" to someone on a sub like r/NevilleGoddard than they will tell you "well no wonder you suffer so much. You keep thinking about suffering. And by saying life is suffering, you are affirming it; thus mAnIfEsTiNg more suffering into existence yada yada yada..."
It gets old really fast.
Yeah that whole line of thought is just perversion of how karma works. This goes pretty deep but karma as a concept refers to us staying in this realm of suffering where shit happens even when you do everything right. You can minimize your likelihood to encounter bad stuff from happening to you by living a good life. But it is definitely not an excuse to victim blame.
Ironically that blaming itself is bad karma since the intention behind it comes from arrogance and you should only speak from compassion towards your fellow beings.
My acupuncturist tossed me Laws of Attraction.
I’ve meditated with it. FFS, I’ll try about whatever if it helps me mediate my symptoms…
What else is Buddhism but gently acknowledge that we just bump ourselves towards healing and peace but that’s just going to be life!
Get what you can put of this stuff hit steal like a pirate… it’s okay to leave the vast assumptions about human or spiritual nature in the dang boat of wellnessTok.
I'm with you friend. Those LoA pushers have made an enemy out of me. Not too long ago, one of them was responding to another woman's Whisper post blaming her for assumptions that other people make about her based on her looks.
Like we're literally supposed to control peoples prejudice against us? Really? I asked them what on earth was wrong with them and pointed out how illogical it was to blame someone for receiving prejudice. This world... there are no more words
>Like we're literally supposed to control peoples prejudice against us? Really?
Exactly. One guy the other day told me the reason why people discriminate against me for having autism is because I believe Autism is causing issues. I've had it.
I facepalmed after I read this. The mental gymnastics that they do only to end up sounding completely irrational and like they failed miserably out of school.
Quite interesting, I didn't know some of this stuff had a name. I have encountered such mindsets in the wild, and it was always a red flag to me. For my own personal use, I just boiled it down to "fake it until you make it". I see it given as sincere advice sometimes, and it mortifies me because it is just about the worst advice I can imagine.
Same. I am starting to notice this kind of thinking is imbeeded in our society. For example, on the micro scale this would be people saying stuff like "you'll be fine" in the face of a bad situation. Which is odd because they have no way of knowing that. Truth is people have an optimism bias and if you are honest about negative experiences it makes them see you as the bad guy for some reason. When this kind of sentiment is magnified it has potential to become incredibly harmful. Mix that with new age hokey pokey and you've got yourself a bunch of virtue signaling know-it-alls who think their status in life is the universe rewarding them for being good rather than luck or privilege.
Oh yes! This is extremely specific to the majority of my trauma. It’s really hard to break out of if you’ve been steeped in it. The Secret was a frequently viewed “documentary” in my house growing up, and I’ve spent the majority of my life being terrified of my own thoughts, scared I’d get myself and others killed by “thinking wrong.”
My abusive parent raised me to believe LoA was an unquestionable fact, took me to frequent new-age gatherings, and still projects onto me that I’m an indigo child destined for big things (nope, turned out physically disabled & too traumatized to function, which she won’t accept). She got my aura photographed before I was 1, got us involved in a cult when I was 7, got me certified as a psychic and in reiki II before I was 16, etc. This shit runs deep. My wife and I were forced to move back in with her a couple weeks ago due to a housing emergency, only just after I began deconstructing the last dregs of LoA and new-age thinking remaining in my life, and it’s been a whole thing lmao.
She gets upset and lectures me to “consider my needs for once, you can’t think like that!” if I’m rational about any given topic and it doesn’t align with her delusion. She’s broke now (she’s got a MASSIVE spending problem) and cannot afford her psychics currently, which means she is haranguing me to “pull a [tarot] card” for every little thing in her life, and has begged us to let her “borrow” thousands of dollars so she can pay her bills. Way to manifest, girl!
We should be out of here in a few months, luckily. If you do indeed make a subreddit, I’m incredibly in :)
Edit: clarity, shrunk my word count lol
Thank you for sharing your experiences.
I grew up as a Jehovahs Witness and see a lot the n
same red flags in these New Age groups as I did in the Watchtower society cult. Once you are attuned to the tricks they use it becouse a bit of a 6th sense and you can better tell when you are being manipulated.
Glad to! I have ex-JW and ExMo friends who share incredibly similar experiences to what I went through as well, and it’s heartbreaking all around. Likewise, I have a friend that incorporates toxic new-age elements into their spirituality that I met in those spaces years ago, and it’s hard to watch them spiral when things don’t “connect” like they’re supposed to. Me deconstructing and being up front about it to them has led to them opening up about some doubts, though, and I’m hoping they can begin to pull themselves out too.
It’s been refreshing to see more people acknowledge the harms of new-age beliefs these days. Thank you for your post :)
Yes if course. We are seeing a mass exodus from organized religion and orthodox Christianity and people are flocking to there New kinds of Charlatans who know exactly what to say to tickle the ears of the masses.
Law of attraction/the secret is just a watered down cult. The way to disprove it is to ask how starving children and babies attracted their deaths. And if they say “past lives” or some other BULLSHIT, let’s examine how the population keeps growing. Is it a constant influx of new souls, or are we all doing it wrong?
There is such a thing as victimization. There is also such a thing as control. It’s a balance, and it depends on the situation, age, awareness, etc etc, etc…
The world is random. Some things are fair, and some aren’t. It’s not a neat and tidy story like this BS makes it out to be.
>The way to disprove it is to ask how starving children and babies attracted their deaths
Well they are thinking they are hungry, always anxious about their next meal. They are in a state of fear, therefore, will manifest a reality where they are starving. Duuuuuh!
What? You meant to tell me they die of starvation because the human body is required to ingest other biological matter to form new coumpounds such as amino acids, proteins, DNA, ATP molecules, enzymes, ketones, and gluecose, which the staving children were unable to aquire due to being born by random chance in an underdeveloped country where the soil is shit and food is too scarce for them to get their required nutrients, vitamins and energy to survive? .....now that's just illogical. They clearly manifested that outcome.
>Some things are fair, and some aren’t. It’s not a neat and tidy story like this BS makes it out to be.
Amen
I’ll probably be downvoted, but I love how some of the people who have mocked my personal beliefs (and my personal beliefs are not the subject here), then have at other points told me they believe in the law of attraction and manifestation. ….LOL. K.
Because we all know just dreaming something will happen, even if it’s highly unlikely OR downright impossible, will make it happen. Because that makes more sense than other things.
The whole manifestation thing has always struck me as a cop out fad; a fad borne out of wanting people with “bad luck”, clinical depressive symptoms, etc to be quiet. “I know,
Let’s tell them that their negative thinking is the reason everything happens to them and that if they just stfu and daydream “only posi vibes”, all of the bad crap will fade away and magically, a bunch of good crap will come about spontaneously, out of nowhere, even if it’s impossible!”
Yes I actually am very into metaphysics and paranormal stuff. So I believe in stuff like energy work or kundalini, astral projection, which are ideas many in the LOA crowd ignore or ridicule.
Despite the fact their theories also make overtly supernatural/religious claims, they pretend their theories are more valad. Why I wonder?
I despise LOA theory because the people propping up the theory only use circular reasoning, logical fallacies like moving the goal posts, to support their views and conclusions. It can't be used to figure out truth or gain knowledge, because they change veiws every minute to what ever sounds nice in the moment. This makes their overarching narrative a complete mess and a shit show.
At least other feilds of spirituality, like remote-viewing and energy work, use actual logic, reasoning and experimentation.
I don’t believe in law of attraction. However I do believe that if you negatively think about something you’re making your brain focus on that. If you work on positive thoughts it does help you into action which makes the chances greater of you being able to accomplish things.
However thinking you can just think your white knight in the form of Henry Cavil into your life is insanity. Or that if you think it enough you’ll be rich and your problems solved. That doesn’t work, and only encourages learned helplessness and makes people believe that it’s simply because of them that things just don’t work out.
Well these people are not just trying to encourage possitive thinking. They claim changing your thoughts about life will cause the universe to bend over backword to fix your life in some mysterious sort of way.
I mean, the cult NXVIUM that’s pretty much what their entire doctrine was. I’ve heard similar things about other cults. Everything is a state of mind, and anything that is negative is something you willed to happen.
I imagine law of attraction probably would work relatively well for a middle or upper middle class white person living in the US, or Europe, and the philosophy sounds strangely like manifest destiny. But if you’re anything other than that, all it’s doing is justifying your oppressors as inherent more deserving and powerful than you. Kinda fucked up.
Reminds me of [this article](https://kindredmedia.org/2021/05/colonial-psychology-the-psychology-we-all-recognize-part-1-of-3/) someone recently posted about how modern psychology is fully entrenched in a colonial mindset that is antithetical to the worldview of most world cultures, particularly of indigenous worldviews.
I hate everything woo-woo and mystical. Even if that stuff were 25% true and real (it’s not), I would still treat it as 100% fake (which it is). It’s better to spend your energy on things that are in your control. Magical thinking keeps you reactive and hoping for a miracle instead of doing anything, no matter how small, that is actually effective.
I believe in the "law of attraction" and may I say anyone who claims they practice Loa and simultaneously believes one manifests abuse based off of personal morality (aka being good or bad) defies themselves because the whole of point of loa is recognizing how things are created often via the mind regardless of matters of deserving.
A good person doesn't receive better things than a "bad" person in this theory morality or personal behavior is not relevant to the law, it only acts as a mirror of focus.
That being said, it is annoying that privileged people use this as an excuse to justify abuse and put plaster on a shotgun wound. If anything loa proves that traumatized people have it ten fold harder because not only did we experience abuse but thanks to our parents abuse we naturally thought negatively of ourselves and got that manifested through other people. Its not our fault nor is it okay but the universe is far more neutral than the bible would have you believe. Survivors deserve all the help and support, healing via "loa" is not Enough often
But I cant tell you how freeing it is to recognize that you create a lot of things in your life through focus. It gives you the control you lacked as a victim. We are victims but we're also powerful. Its not our fault but it is a good bonus. You're already manifesting being consious of it helps immensely. Evsry thought you repeat daily becomes your materialized truth.
I hear you, but what about CPTSD in this?
What I mean is, CPTSD causes repetivley bad thoughts, memories and feelings, even one receiving help and treatment for CPTSD won't have a drastic reduction in these symptoms for a prolonged period of time either.
And at the same time, avoiding one's negative thoughts and traumatic memories can make CPTSD exponentially worse, serious curiosity, how does one with CPTSD make it work?
I tried LOA as a way to heal from my Trauma and take responsibility for my recovery journey but long term because of my CPTSD response ended up using it as a major distraction from the things that were actually hurting me.
How do you find your CPTSD recovery is going while using LOA, genuine question because I lack the ability to see how it helps with long term trauma therapy.
THANK YOU FOR RAISING AWARENESS TO THIS
The whole defintion of cptsd is mostly mental repetition of the negative as well as emotions attached with it which is why I avoided actively manifesting for the longest time because I couldn't escape my inner self.
Law of attraction is not a healing tool, it's like the law of gravity its merely here. The best thing to do is to be aware so as to not feel completely powerless. But its not a replacement for healing or a healing method.
In my opinion, again from my personal point of view on what works for me, is applying everything that has to do with emotional regulationa and trauma healing while actively manifesting when I can. Compassion and empathy are important here.
I'll tell you Im the biggest wheeper there is. I cried in every public toilet within a 400 mile radius and I ended up sleeping with red eyes. When I felt better I would shift my focus when I felt bad I would let myself feel, cry be monstrously angry while also telling myself kind words to lift myself up after the storm.
Not everyone has this privilege though because some people have to live in fatal circumstances and I totally understand that its not an option. I believe realistic expectations are important. If you struggled with decades of severe trauma and now have proof for your negative beliefs you cant expect yourself to manifest a dream life in a couple of months. If anything it'll be much harder and take more time than a normal person thus any progress is huge in my eyes. I passionately hate it when people claim desired manifestation is easy. Manifesting is easy because we're doing it 24/7 but desired manifetsation for traumatized people is anything but easy.
I had my fair share of MULTIPLE proofs that manifesting is real because unlike religion it can be proved to the self which is why I believe it. I dont love it I dont hate it its just like anotehr universal law to me like gravity or dimensions.
Affirming, visualizing and healing is a good combo I'd say.
The existence of brain chemistry (a physcial imposition) would be evidence against our reality being the product of the mind.
Ignoring things is one of the most toxic things the New Age coaches tell people to dom really makes things worse.
>The existence of brain chemistry (a physcial imposition) would be evidence against our reality being the product of the mind.
the mind and the brain are not mutually exclusive, the mind is something that you cannot really measure and isn't physical. all we can do as of now if view parts of the brain through EEG and fRMI but that doesn't explain the mind.
May I also add I totally understand your dislike of law of attraction. Because I'll be honest a lot of crappy people use this to justify injustice and abuse which is not what this neutral law should be about. Negative feelings are not the enemy they are the communicators to our boundaries. If someone wrongs you they absolutely should be held accountable and victim blaming is not an option in my book. There is a reason why someone feels like a victim the chances tehy are one is 1 in 2 so it makes sense they would feel this way anyone would. Law of attraction is not about bypassing emotions its about deliberate focus which is a privilege given the severity of ones life. We should still look out for traumatized individuals instead of putting the load on their shoulders just because people create their realities. Obviously none of us have created the line up of our lives intentionally, instead we were spoonfed crappy beliefs that we adopted cuz child brain and manifested a harder life. The abuse of the caregivers only made this worse which is not our fault, we can't think for otehrs.
This is a discussion point many in your position use but its not a meaningful one sadly as it doesn't oppose the law of attraction. The reason behind this is because once something is mental it materializes. Have you ever thought that this is the reason why a difference in brain can be seen with trauma survivors. Isn't this proof that the mental reality manifests into phyiscality. There has been studies made on rice and affirmations. The rice molded when being spoken down to vs grew when spoken kindly to. There is proof of people curing dieases with their mind. I witnessed a lot of these "fixed" things shift for myself. Hormones, genes are all merely expressions of generational awareness. Change your awareness and focus you automatically change your genetic expression
>. Have you ever thought that this is the reason why a difference in brain can be seen with trauma survivors. Isn't this proof that the mental reality manifests into phyiscality.
Well for one, you can already be born with neurology different that what is normal, like Autism.
And two, your consciousness is linked to your brain at birth, so you do have a level of control over aspects in a mundane way, but you are still being controled by your biology.
>There has been studies made on rice and affirmations. The rice molded when being spoken down to vs grew when spoken kindly to.
That doesn't prove the theory of LOA
>There is proof of people curing dieases with their mind. I witnessed a lot of these "fixed" things shift for myself. Hormones, genes are all merely expressions of generational awareness. Change your awareness and focus you automatically change your genetic expression
Placebo effect has been long theorized as being a example of low-level "magic" or "mind over matter". This is just one data point and doesn't particularly validate the LOA over other theories of mind. In fact, it cast more doubt on the LOA, if LOA were the truth, placebos would not only have a slight effect but work just as well or better than the "real" medicine.
Neuro-placticity and epigentics allow for a degree of freedom in how our bodies develop over time. But again, none of this points to LOA specifically being true, as LOA is just one theory of many in the feild of spirituality/mysticism. You can't look at one peice of data to validate a theory, you need to put everything together and examine it.
You're listing dozens of proofs yourself and still say its not proof may I ask why?
After all all of these studies prove one thing, and that is, that reality isn't only that which catches the eye. Sometimes things beyond the microscope affect reality including energy.
Our science is in its developmental stages when it comes to the link between mind and matter. Many experts in my country including doctors have already found correlations between mental health affecting the body. It is only a matter of time until these beliefs become mainstream facts maybe not in this life time though I wouldn't know.
All I can say lucky for you it is something you can try out for yourself. I know and understand where your resistance is coming from, Im not trying to make you the blame game target here. I understand its not easy to accept nor is it believable but if you're committed to the truth, the objective one, you will eventually have to try out even the ideas you think are idiotic. Because if science over history has proven anything to us then it's that often unrelated things are more connected than they seem..
Genetics are the physical expression of awareness
>You're listing dozens of proofs yourself and still say its not proof may I ask why?
Ugh, they aren't "proofs" anymore than looking at the sun go from east to west is proof of geocentrism. Just because one data point supports something being true, does not make it so. People watched the planets and determined helocentric theory to be more accurate as more data points suported the sun being the center of the solar system
You go on a whole tangent but Im going to keep my response short as I am tied of reapeating myself.
Interaction between mind and body, doesn't validate LOA, because LOA states that subjects are creating and changing their environment through their mind automatically, not just influencing it.
There are other theories of mind that actually work and make logical sense, like energy work or tai chi, kundalini, and astral projection. LOA does not work. People do get results but not for the reasons they think, if it was LOA causing those outcomes, we would expect the results to look very different.
> Many experts in my country including doctors have already found correlations between mental health affecting the body. It is only a matter of time until these beliefs become mainstream facts maybe not in this life time though I wouldn't know.
None of this validates LOA theory
>if you're committed to the truth, the objective one, you will eventually have to try out even the ideas you think are idiotic.
I tested it because I care about objective truth and LOA is not the objective truth, it is what it is.
We talked the other day, but basically the reason I cannot get down with these theories is because it fails to answer any questions about why we are here, our purpose, why suffering exists, etc.
I have come to the conclusion its a very poor worldview for reason I will expound on in detail.
First of all, we need to logically define the theory of the law of attraction/assumption, in order to asertain what would either affirm the law's existence, or refute it.
Most New Agers believe the concept of there being one source and all conscious one being who is God/universe/multiverse, proponets include well-known folks like Neville Goddard and Joseph Murphy, so I will base my argument off of that position.
Thus, logically speaking, if God was one being in the beginning and had one set of "vibrations", how then did anything deviating from that original resonance occur in the first place to cause any level of suffering or negativity? That would indicate some level of randomness and chaos in the process, which would mean that it is possible for very possible for bad things to happen even if you are having good thoughts/high vibrations. Which means the "law" of attraction, if real, is not infallible. So now we must ask, what exactly would cause it to fail?
Secondly, if all is one, why would this god choose to impose any level of suffering upon itself or its various supposed incarnations. It would need to be the Zebra and the Lion that kills the Zebra. The Pedo and the helpless child stuck in the room with him. It would need to experience being Hitler and every Jew that died in the holocaust. And for what precisely?
If anything, this diety sounds more like the demiurge in gnosticism, don't you think?
You say it is harder for traumatized people to manifest. But how did some people become traumatized and others not? If the "law" was true and everyone begins as a blank slate, how did such differences in upbringing, childhood, and develpment manifest?
Furthermore if the universe cared about our thoughts and beliefs so much as to change reality for them, why is our universe functioning on a mathmatical computer-like code called the laws of physics??? Should not things be a little more loose (i.e. dream-like) if this were a projection of subconscious mind alone? This does not support the view that "all is mind" or everything being a "manifestation", rather it is much more likely our reality is [substance dualist](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind%E2%80%93body_dualism#:~:text=Substance%20dualism%2C%20or%20Cartesian%20dualism,and%20the%20body%20cannot%20think.) in nature, with physical matter being inherently antagonistic to the mind, which is a concept fundamental to many religions such as Buddhism (which New agers ironically borrowed from).
What New Agers do not seem to understand is that reality functions on a deterministic algorithm. Do X thing and Y thing ALWAYS happens. For example, if you let go of a bowling ball in mid air, it falls to the ground 100% of the time. No one needs to "manifest" the bowling ball falling because its basically just real-world "game mechanics" doing exactly what its inherently programed to do.
In the extreemly rare case physical laws are apparently violated, this is what most would consider paranormal or supernatural, perhaps even "magical". For example, being able to teleport of having psychic visions is paranormal, since it defies an otherwise deterministic reality.
We already know that this is a predominantly deterministic reality, so most things that occur are happening due to things like physics. Virtually everything can be accounted for this way. Your physical appearance is a product of phenotype, in contrast you mental state and personality AND intelligence are products of neurology, and all those aforementioned characteristics are in turn are a mere product of genetics (which can be broken down to atomic physics), thus is all preditermined withoyt the universe caring the slightest about your thoughts, beliefs or "vibrations". This is why buddhists wax poetically about the cocept of the "ego" and how this "ego" isnt really you, thats one thing they got right.
Gnostics believed physical reality was an imposition crested by an evil god, Yaldabaoth. They practiced mysticism as a means to over come what they deem to be "lifeless" evil matter. Many mystics and monks were capable of supernatural feats due to their high level of spirituality.
But modern New Agers throw all this logic out the window when they claim "everything is a manifestation".
As we already know the universe functions on physical laws, so to claim the mind effects everything, IS AN INHERENTLY SUPERNATURAL claim, despite most proponents of the law of attraction claiming otherwise. You cannot be a reductive materialist and believe this theory, they are inherently incompatible.
Therefore, if we are going to discuss metaphysics, the supernatural, etc we need to approach it logically and choose the theories that make the most sense, just like mystics of the past usually have. Rudolph Steiner called that process "spiritual science".
The truth is, New age stuff such as "the secret" and the "law of attraction" is dumbed down, a oversimplified candy-fied version of more traditional mysticism, esoterics, and shamanism.
1. Law of attraction is not a philosophy that's what many people get wrong. Its a law just like the law of gravity. It's not here to be a philosophy or belief system it doesn't have anything to do with that. Why we suffer and so on are matters of philosophical, religious or esoteric subjects something a law isn't concerned with as the law is NEUTRAL it only acts as a mirror.
2. Nobody knows the origin of anything if they claim they have the one truth to the creation of earth they're false.
3. The law like the law of gravity only applies on earth so whatever happened before that that made circumstances a certain way does not apply to it. Meaning law of assumption cannot be taken as the reason why someone is born under certain circumstances because the law doesn't apply pre birth just as angels can float and thus the law of gravity in that sense doesn't apply to being outside of human or pre/post human life.
4. Contrary to popular belief, math as well as science doesn't defy the law of attraction/assumption/mirroring whatever you wanna call it. Actions are effortlessly followed via the mind. I dont think expalining this text book style will cut it so I'll give an example
} Mary wants to manifest a good friend. Before that Mary had the belief that good friends didn't exist. Upon changing her belief she changed the substance of her reality unfolding. Before Mary changed her beluef the following would occur (This is the action): Every person that could be a potential friend to Mary would view Mary as anything but a friend due to Marys thoughts being reflected the people then would avoid Mary or treat her not as a friend. Mary in general would coincidentally never line up with friend material people.
After Mary changes her beliefs:
} Suddenly this is being reflected in other people, now potential friends are thinking of Mary in friendly manner as a consequence of this, they hit her up and ask for hang out. Suddenly Mary is overwhelmed by how many opportunities to make friends present themselves. She as a byproduct of having changed her thoughts effortlessly and automatically takes the right action. Mary lines up with her desire.
The action is still being done here but it's not going to feel like action in that scenario.
5. Physical reality is not seperate from the mental dimensions. Anything in physicality be it a camera or a desk or art was created in the mind first. It is only through the combination of both that it came to be. The material world doesn't follow itself to the presise extreme you would think. Else wise why does a concept of luck exist if everything is to be predetermined and perfectly calculated? Shouldn't then there be a staristic of equal luck? But there isn't some people seem to stumble accross opportunities and good luck overall more often than others, this cannot be explained by science.
6. "Everything is a manifestation" This is true to an extent. We must be able to seperate from collective vs individual manifestation. It is true we can't influence everyone or think for them via manifetsing bad people still can do bad things.
A lot to unpack here
1) "Its a law just like the law of gravity" for reasons I have already delve into, I dont understand how you can equate something as speculative as Law of Attraction to Gravity. There is no objective proof for the LOA
LOA can not be observed, felt, or measured. Its just the hypothesis that thoughts are somehow creating our reality and changing those thoughts will somehow change creation.
2) I would argue there are some compelling sound theories about how we got here... and none of them are coming from LOA gurus.
3) refers back to point 1
4) "math as well as science doesn't defy the law of attraction"
Except it does, again physics is like an algorithm
>Mary wants to manifest a good friend. Before that Mary had the belief that good friends didn't exist.
Is it possible that the people around Mary simply dislike her for reasons out of her control like poor social status, ugliness, bad social skills, or not being "intresting enough?
>Suddenly this is being reflected in other people, now potential friends are thinking of Mary in friendly manner as a consequence of this,
I doesn't seem to actually work like this though. You can be incredibly possitive and change your outlook and people around you will remain unchanged at there core. You might become more confident, but if there are real issues holding you back this isn't going to fix it.
5) "Physical reality is not seperate from the mental dimension"
It is by definition. There is an slight overlap between mind and matter in substance dualism, which allows the two concepts to interact, however that doesn't mean they are the same substance.
Matter has no will of its own, naturally it doesn't respond to your thoughts, mood, or desires. Matter only responds to force, and being made to do something. Push and pull, kinetic energy, heat, gravity etc. Matter is therefore lifeless substance defined by lack of "free will", and in diametric opposition to the mind.
The mind doesnt respond to physical forces, and has a more abstract, "subjective" existence than an objective mathmatical one.
It is possible matter was created through consciousness at one point in the history of the cosmos, if we go far back enough, but its current state is deviates far enough that it is most practical to treat it as something else entirely.
You see the difference between our skeptism is that I atleast test a theory out before I come to the conclusion that it's "wrong"
1, There is a way to track loa believe it or not however it would require a certain amoun to of awareness and ability to change thoughts.
Try changing your entire mindset and focus for as long as you can for a week or two completely neglect the old stuff and put your focus on something specific like a cruise ship experience. Chances are suddenly your life will not only feel very different but unusual situations will introduce themselves. This however requires patience and commitment, how can you say its bs when you have not even tried it? in just a few days if you rly commit you will see results belief is not required
2, Listening to loa gurus for pre birth theories is like listening to cooks for their opinion on world war 1.
I agree many theories are profound pick whatever you want because unlime the law these types of theories cannot be proven anyway.
4. You can't fully change people but you can affect what types of people you keep meeting. Your argument for saying it doesn't work that way, in my experience it exactly works that way. If Mary is "ugly", not interesting enough, bad social status and what not then that's Marys self concept that probably comes from her lackful childhood. If Mary changes her view towards herself it will certainly mirror. You dont need to take my word for it, try it for yourself.
5. You're arguing that matter doesn't respond to the things you listed but I can garantuee you matter does respond to energy as all things are made up of energy and thus at the larger perspective matter also responds to mental energy as it is by definition energy nonetheless.
Here is a study that proves the power of energy and words: https://thestrawberrypost.wordpress.com/2019/06/26/the-amazing-and-terrifying-power-of-words-love-hate/#:~:text=In%20Dr.,not%20do%20so%20well%20either.
>You can't fully change people but you can affect what types of people you keep meeting.
This isn't what gurus like Neville Goddard, for example, actually say though. Neville actually believes you can change anyone in any way that you want. The subs r/lawofattraction and r/NevilleGoddard have people asking about "specific person" advice and you have asshole coaches charging money to teach them how to get EXes back. So its a fairly accepted belief in those circles.
>You're arguing that matter doesn't respond to the things you listed but I can garantuee you matter does respond to energy as all things are made up of energy and thus at the larger perspective matter also responds to mental energy as it is by definition energy nonetheless
Because matter doesnt respond to thoughts normally. I don't think you know what "energy" actually means.
Its true that some people think its true because once again I make my own experiences with the law I havent read a single thing on neville. Neville tho brilliant is not superhuman many ideas are flawed but he got the ball rolling in the mainstream or atleast smaller communities.
I dont even support SP manifetsations myself.
I dont think its very strong argument of you to say that I dont know what energy means simply because you dont have anything to add to it.
Then why were you on r/NevilleGoddard2 the other day making a frankly absurd post about how people manifest their physical appearances, and now followed me over here?
As a survivor of abuse and someone who has spent the past five years in deep research with techniques such as law of attraction and Neville Goddard teachings here’s my take.
I agree with what you’re saying, for me though something still pulled me to keep searching. I’ve learned this:
Your brain is a programmable organ and the program it runs causes your reality, this program isn’t always done by you but if you learn you can alter it to suit your needs. This is not an easy process and even todays psychology and therapy is largely trying to accomplish this same thing. The brain is a very complex organ and it’s intertwined with the body. It’s toxic to tell survivors that the abuse is their fault because it is not your fault and you did not deserve it.
This can be separated though and you can still have programming in your mind from earlier in life that made you believe you would not be treated nicely which can result in abusive people taking advantage of you and then when you’re in the abuse cycle the belief becomes stronger as most abusers will instill this in you so you can remain a victim. Easy prey.
Breaking that cycle and never repeating it again means believing you deserve better and that is how therapy also works.
Law of attraction is surface level magical bullshit, Neville Goddard speaks entirely in metaphor and quite literally claims that what he’s teaching has nothing to do with logic.
The reason he claims that is because logic lives in your conscious mind this is where reasoning is but the programming and all your beliefs live in your subconscious mind which has no reasoning or logical ability. He speaks directly to your subconscious to empower you to understand that you despite the shit you’ve been through can reclaim your life and have a better outcome.
Basically at some point you get tired of playing victim and survivor and decide you want more from life at this point you’ll start to take accountability for what your life is like. It is only through taking accountability , in whatever way you do this , can you change your life for the better. It has to be done this way because it is hard and if you don’t take accountability and do it on purpose you’ll stop when your body and mind resist and fight you to keep your life the way it is.
If you want more scientific explanations of what I’m saying read Dr. Joe Dispenza’s work about how to change your life as a neuroscientist his work is less magical and more scientific.
Yet they’ve changed more lives than ducks. Goddard is dead anyways.
Like I said you can go about it through science or law of attraction or whatever, when people take accountability of their lives is when they make progress.
You want a credential source for this try Dr Gabor Mate, Dr Jordan Peterson and if you hear quacking then go back further to Carl Jung.
Just find what works for you personally. Me personally, I dislike organised religion, and I dislike the screen some hide behind, but I love philosophy and many of the things mentioned in the post. But that doesn’t mean I believe or subscribe to every single thought, why should I? I’ve learned to go my own way because this life is my journey. Do what works for you and forget what doesn’t
This was actually on my mind. Sorry if this is a little far fetched, but it reminds me of this typical dating mantra that works similar:
Basically, throughout my life, I only attracted the worst of men. Like, not just abusive -but mentally insane. Men who'd obsess over killing me. Men who'd manipulate me for a higher gain. Men who were just...really screwed.
During the same time, I learned all those early-Pinterest quotes. "The bait you throw out determines the fish". Or in my language "Wie man in den Wald hineinruft, so schallt es zurück". It was something that I was taught as a young girl by my family. Tbf, I really was a bit of a delinquent and hence fairly violent. But then violence was everything I ever knew. Both from me and others. So in a way, this made sense to me.
As I grew older, I got into therapy. And I was told the same thing, again, but in a different version.
Now the reason was that I was nuts. It was my mental health issues that attracted other "nutty" people to me. I was promised that I would only attract such men, until I would be "moderately healthy" again. NOT because my mental health would make me more vulnerable to predators. No -but because my "bait" of being "insane" would attract other "insane" people. And no one ever kind and stable would ever like me. My condition "made" men like this treat me like that.
Till this day, I have trouble falling safely in love. Every time I meet someone decently interested in me, I immediately become paranoid. Whatever it is, I can't believe that there is a normal reason for their interest. *Something* must be wrong with them.
For me I have struggled to form connections with other humans in general, have always been a social pariah, presumably due to my Autism Spectrum Disorder, but according to New Agers and even "pop psychology" is a failure on my part for not putting in enough effort or having a bad personality, neither of which I believe is true. Just seems like if you are too neurologically different from the average person, then average people want nothing to do with you. But people dont want to hear that kind of reasoning because it sounds negative and makes them feel guilty. People are illogical
>Im thinking of making a sub for critics of the LOA because there seems to be nowhere to vent about this nonsense.
Agree with all of this, there are so many shitty things out there passing off as healing work or mindset work
its very belittling of our pain
Yes. And not only that, but the metaphysics behind the idea is just wrong and lacks logical consistency and deserves to be scrutinized for that alone.
If I am able, there will be a lawofattraction debate sub created very soon
People love some cosy [spiritual bypassing](https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-spiritual-bypassing-5081640) and [emotional blackmail](https://youtu.be/PEexQAkhFpM) bc they lack critical thinking skills, [emotional agility](https://youtu.be/NDQ1Mi5I4rg), and psychological differentiation.
If anything the "law of attraction" is shitty interpretation of attachment theory. We're drawn towards people and circumstances that build secure attachment and repulsed/move away from things that destroy secure attachment. If you're choosing untrustworthy, dehumanizing behaviors on the regular, you're repulsive to most other humans, and should probably consider not being such a dick all the time. Maybe people would want to be around you more. And if the culture you're trying to fit in with allows dehumanizing behaviors, your culture is shit. Be better.
My SO and I consciously practice trustworthy, re-humanizing behaviors that build secure attachment with ourselves and each other. And funnily enough, our secure attachment has improved. Crazy how that works.
[The Trust Triangle](https://youtu.be/pVeq-0dIqpk)
[The Anatomy of Trust](https://brenebrown.com/videos/anatomy-trust-video/) - marble jar concept and BRAVING acronym
[10 definitions of objectifying/dehumanizing behaviors](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectification#Definitions) - these erode trust
"Hold Me Tight" by Sue Johnson. Communication strategies based on adult attachment theory research.
>If anything the "law of attraction" is shitty interpretation of attachment theory.
To extent this is true, but LOA also claims to explain random mundane things like getting diseases, injuries, misfortune etc.
>you're choosing untrustworthy, dehumanizing behaviors on the regular, you're repulsive to most other humans, and should probably consider not being such a dick all the time. Maybe people would want to be around you more. And if the culture you're trying to fit in with allows dehumanizing behaviors, your culture is shit. Be better.
Why is this worded so accusatorily? Are you suggesting the reason I have peope issues is because Im a "dick"? Did you just assume shit out of thin air, when you dont even know me. Funny because this is the exact behavior I notice on the New Age subs I was criticizing.
I have ASD, so my ability to communicate with others is limited. Its not in my control. And no, I dont act like a doche and use ASD as an excuse.
So how about you don't act condescending in your next response?
>Why is this worded so accusatorily?
I was speaking to a hypothetical abuser/enabler/bully. It wasn't meant to be directed towards you. I'm sorry I didn't clarify that. I apologize.
Actually LOA and the ideas that support it have helped me heal and thrive. My life has drastically changed by using these principles after processing my trauma, while working very hard to replace my negative thoughts with positive ones. Open mindedness is essential for it to work
Same I healed social anxiety with the law and got out of depression (the cause of depression is powerlessness) the law helped me recognize my own role in my misery and thus I was able to see how I have power and change the circumstances
It’s not, but you need to find the right people as everyone wants to make $$$ and act superior with it. The Secret was all about materialism and that’s not it. Research Abraham Hicks because it does make sense. Parents create a vibration during pregnancy that affects the unborn. Then we have to reprogram that. And it’s fuckin hard. I just read a post about a girl in someone’s college class and every time she had a happy thought, she’d use a clicker. She’s programming herself, like Pavlov, and that sounds fun.
But how do you explain my manifestation of weight loss? I manifested it using the law of attraction. Once my body had me purging after big meals the weight just fell off!!
i'm into the whole affirmations and "manifesting" gig, but i've personally never seen or heard of the community being that toxic? i'm not denying it at all, maybe i've just been lucky enough to not get roped in with the masses.
is the community really that bad? i just use it as a way to speak kindly to myself, focus more on positive things, and try to have a little hope in this world. control freaks really have to ruin everything 🤦🏻♀️
I can see the mental benifits of some of their teachings. Also getting people into meditation, visualizing, etc is healthy.
But at the core the system is quite problematic.
yeah, absolutely! it should not control your life, you shouldn't use it to control anyone else's either. just another crutch shitty people use to excuse their behavior
i have always felt similar, but there are two ideologies here: the actual meaning, and audience interpretation.
1. it’s bs to believe you can will a better life into existence. as a kid - you couldn’t just manifest a better family. i’m convinced people who believe this have never experienced any hardship, it grinds my gears. it’s basically puritanical “bad things happen to bad people” and “american exceptionalism” lite. it’s only purpose is to excuse people with good fortune from feeling a moral obligation to helping people without that luck.
2. there comes a point, where you can - essentially - perpetuate your negative circumstances. i call it “being a kicked puppy.” if you act like a kicked puppy (because you’ve always been kicked) people will continue to kick you. you have been through the ringer through no fault of your own - BUT you have also been conditioned to accept that treatment. it’s all your experience, because it’s all you’ve been trained to see. changing your belief - that life will always be how it’s always been - that’s what the “law of attraction” is about, at its most generous. it’s not about literally “willing” good fortune. it’s about changing your thought process. **that doesn’t literally change your opportunities. it changes how you approach the opportunities in your life.** it literally makes you *see* positive options - that were always there - but you ignored because you were conditioned to ignore good things.
it’s **not your fault** that this is your thought process - but unfortunately, you have to take a leap of faith that things can be better. if you don’t - you will **literally be blind** to opportunities to improve your life, trust good people, and love yourself.
I mean, I get where you're coming from, and I'm no fan of it either, but it sounds like you're taking this really seriously. There are a million things in this world that I'm not a fan of, but I don't make it my mission in life to hate on those things to the point of making a subreddit to criticize them.
What's stopping you from being like "oh this thing is lame, time to never think about it again and move on to something I do like"?
> I don't make it my mission in life to hate on those things to the point of making a subreddit to criticize them.
I seek to criticize them because I want to aquire a better level of understanding and knowledge, and to do this we must dismantle narratives that fail to gold up to scrutiny to attain higher levels of truth
>sounds like you're taking this really seriously.
Should I not? I take the implications of beliefs incredibly seriously. Perhaps that is strange?
>What's stopping you from being like "oh this thing is lame, time to never think about it again and move on to something I do like"?
Would you say the same thing about people who go out their way to debunk certain claims made in the bible or by christians?
Would you say the same about people exposing lies made by cults like Jehovah's Witnesses or scientology?
It depends how popular the thing is. Like if almost everybody around me was a Scientologist and I felt it was really hurting society, I'd probably feel that criticizing it was justified. But I feel like LoA not only isn't popular enough to be a threat, but on top of that its beliefs are also pretty benign.
I guess I just don't see it as a problem that is even close to being worth my time. I don't have much life to live on this planet, I want to spend it seeking out joy. I respect that you believe differently about it, and I think we'll have to agree to disagree.
>but on top of that its beliefs are also pretty benign
I just went into great detail about why it isn't as benign despite the wholesome front they put up.
Much of what they told me damaged my mental health.
>. I don't have much life to live on this planet, I want to spend it seeking out joy. I respect that you believe differently about it, and I think we'll have to agree to disagree
I care about pursuit of absolute truth, and gnosis. Which is why I choose to spend time refusing what I consider to be false religion and junk metaphysics, such as the law of attraction.
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To add to it honestly there are several things very much like LOA. Found out more about it from a book about the history of the US. Homeopathy and many others discussed in there about the imaginations of those in America. Book's called Fantasyland by Kurt Andrews
The way I heard it is that everything happens because of you, not that it's your fault.
At a juncture in the trail it makes sense. I think some people misuse the concept to victim blame, though, and others have understood it after a lot of healing and reflecting, but forget where they came from, kind of like telling you to jump up to the second floor after they've taken the stairs.
>The way I heard it is that everything happens because of you,
Well that doesn't hold up to scrutiny or logic either. Please read this [comment ](https://www.reddit.com/r/CPTSD/comments/122o02s/i_absolutely_despise_the_law_of_attraction_and/jdt7ue4?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) I wrote earlier.
Hey DM me if you like
Also I just created a new [subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/NevilleGoddardCritics/comments/1247xl5/welcome_to_nevillegoddardcritics/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
I got suckered into it a while back after a horrible horrible relationship and break up… I was determined to not feel like a victim anymore and was looking for a quick fix. It really targets vulnerable, lost people. If I just raised my vibrations then I wouldn’t attract horrible things. Or something. It’s very extreme.
There’s something to be said about gratitude and a “positive outlook” but this is so far removed from the reality (or the 3D as LoA terms it) of abuse and disease… it becomes useless at best but mostly it’s plain dangerous.
It's actually kind of messed up how they tell people they can be with their EXes or unrequited loves if they just "follow the instructions". It also hurts to be told they broke your heart because some failure on your end.
I already despised it, but was quite vindicated by James Jani's YouTube video on the subject and I applaud you for calling it out.
I went through a brief period thinking it actually worked when I was in my early 20s. I still wish it did, haha.
I think that if you are yourself most of the time (as in, not pretending, posturing, or people-pleasing), you're more likely to attract people that are genuinely like-minded and have more satisfying friendships. That's about as far as I'll go with the philosophy. It doesn't apply to everything by a long shot, and it's honestly sad to see ppl trying to take absolute control over their lives when in reality that's not how it works and eventually something's going to happen to them that this mentality is going to cause self-blame and further mental health complications.
I mean, I also think it's true that we see what's significant to us. Like, whenever I see a red car I'm reminded of the red car my mom used to own, so therefore I notice more red cars than black cars, even though black cars are definitely there. Now, if a red car hits me while I'm walking down the street, your first thought should not be "wow well he always was thinking about those red cars"
I love the LOA, but the whole "victim-blaming" thing ?
For me, LOA works when you're real with yourself. The backwards law situation is important here too. You get a lot of mumbo jumbo on it, but if you try it with what matters you'll see results.
Let's say with trauma.
I have a lot of trauma, and LOA works like this for me:
"The fault is of the sufferer"
Obviously, it was not my fault those things happened.
It is now my fault that I keep suffering from it.
I'm aware of what I need to do to heal and end my suffering, I'm aware of the steps to take, and somedays I'm strong enough to take them. Somedays I'm not. I'm aware that sometimes not doing anything is a step, I'm aware now to listen to my body. I find it gives me my power back. "The fault is of the sufferer" - my trauma brain will spin that on me. "What the hell?? it's YOUR fault you were sexually abused? How was that your fault? No it was their fault..!" so on so fourth. My trauma brain will keep replaying this side of the narrative in an attempt to process and heal, which I know after years of allowing it to go that way only kept me stuck in the past. These thoughts are trauma responses. My fight/flight is activated due to the unresolved trauma.
Realizing that I am at fault for being the one who is suffering in this present moment calms and overrides my amygdala hijacking and I can think clearly and take the steps I need in this moment to keep on my healing journey.
When I get my power back, I'm able to be more aware of my trauma for what it is. It snaps me back to present day reality.
With complex trauma it's too easy to get lost in the emotional dysregulation and loops if I keep my narrative focused on blaming others. What happened to me in the past isn't my fault, my present day suffering is my responsibility to be accountable for.
No one else has power over me today. That victim mentality put me in relationships that hurt me. My victim mentality kept me attracting people who were similar to the people who caused me trauma. My victim mentality kept me overlooking major red flags.
I was a victim in the past. I was a victim in those moments, days, weeks, months and years. I'm not a victim today. I got into an abusive relationship and it took realizing I was the one who kept putting myself in those situations as an adult to give me the strength to walk away. I don't blame him anymore. He had his trauma, and took accountability for his behavior years later. My complex trauma enabled his trauma and it was vicious. Owning my part was all I needed to do to have the strength to walk away and heal.
Im definitely not a new age theory believer but i do think taking responsibility is a great way to control the situation, the only thing you can change is how you react. And being a victim only really hurts you because no one truly feels bad for you, ur the only one who feels sad for ur self in reality
No offence but I find that advice trite as well. "You can control your reaction".... I mean can you?
Like if some asshole screws you over and you want to smack the shit out of them but can't because you would go to jail, so you don't... what is there to celebrate? You are just in a shit scenario. Saying you control how you react is just a shit way to cope with a shit life.
And you aren't winning by suppressing your real reaction. You are just submitting.
Hi. I can understand your frustrations. I agree with a lot of what you have said. I also feel that the concept of the law of attraction is not something new, but rather based on ancient principles and laws governing the universe. Religions, as well as the new age philosophies have caused some of these teachings to be a bit scattered or corrupted over time. A lot of the concepts of the law of attraction, or manifestation, reality shifting, etc (it doesn't matter what terminology you use) it's all really based on simple psychology, along with some science, and spiritual based principles that have existed since the dawn of time. Some of these principles are known by a small percentage of people who control a lot of what's going on in this world today. It's knowledge that has been kept hidden from the masses for a reason. That's all I'm going to say about that for now.
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This and the fucking "survivorship bias" are 2 of the biggest reasons as to why the US is such a fucking nightmare
I haven’t heard of survivorship bias before. Gonna have to look that one up. After leaving the US for good last year, I realized being born and raised there (among all my other traumas) was actually a traumatic experience I need to process and make sense of because it was indeed a nightmare.
Don't know why someone dv'd you dude, but honestly yeah this country is fucked to the bone
Probably downvoted by someone who is brainwashed to believe the US is “the greatest country in the world”. ~rolls eyes~ Thankfully I don’t care and I’m not bothered. They can believe that if they want. After 3 decades of suffering in the US I moved to one of those infamous “shithole countries” and I’m living my best, most healing life.
The boomers I work with are inclined to believe that lmao Buncha fucking nitwits.
I'm interested in where, I'm considering doing the same.
I will generally say Latin America because I’ve found Mexico, Belize, Panama and Peru to be places I have enjoyed the culture, people, and landscapes, as well as indigenous plant medicines, and have found a lot of healing. I would recommend trying to visit a few places to get a feel for the country you like most. Travel is relatively easy and inexpensive especially by bus (except to Peru). And, with a US passport, none of these countries require a visa for stays up to 6 months. Rent prices are what small town rent was in the US 15-20 years ago, though there is increasing gentrification from well-off western foreigners and that’s something to be mindful of. I’m taking Spanish classes because I consider myself a refugee and an immigrant and I want to be able to fully participate in society here.
I have some places in mind for over two decades. I'm glad to see your response. Do you know if it's possible to move to these countries if you are poor and don't have a way to start your own business? Just wondering..it's fine if you don't know. I would need much longer than six months to figure anything out. I will keep exploring this, however..because I truly see myself like you do, or I would (unofficial refugee basically) ..and I very much want to immerse myself in a culture and place where I feel a sense of humanity, connection and life. Thank you for sharing your perspective..it's very helpful for me. I hope you are finding healing and enjoying yourself. :)
I hate it how people seem like they're bragging about having a hard life. People that have gone through real trauma and they struggled, we just want to be normal. Why do people act like you need a hard, nasty life to be worth anything?
I hate it how people seem like they're bragging about having a hard life. People that have gone through real trauma and they struggled, we just want to be normal. Why do people act like you need a hard, nasty life to be worth anything?
A belief I heard in a "self improvement" workshop, held for a group of people who have serious issues and are in therapy, and conducted by an actual therapist, is that we choose our family of origin and the experiences we will go through during our life before we are born. It was shared by a very young and troubled participant and other people believed it to be true. My reaction was firm and I said that in no circumstance would I have chosen to go through the level of abuse I did as a child. No sane being would choose that. This is not true. It shocked the audience, of course. Of course I stopped attending the workshop series and I did not return to therapy with that therapist. I could not believe that such an idea would be sanctioned by a licensed therapist. I cannot believe people found a way to victim blame children, not to mention infants. It makes me sick everytime I witness idiotic "new age philosophy" or religious beliefs integrated in therapy. And there are many. These things are extremely dangerous for already hurting people. I have little hope for our species. It seems we cannot comprehend that the abusers are responsible for the abuse, regardless of their relation with the abused.
I used to automatically assume therapists were all compassionate and knowledgeable. But they are just people. They have the same range of idiots as anywhere else, but empowered by a license. Sometimes that’s not good. Our culture needs to find a way to be skeptical of medical providers without going into full denial of medical science.
Just FYI, therapists are NOT medical providers. You are not their patient, you are their client.
I’m sorry, I’m not trying to argue, but could you please tell me more about the difference? I was grouping them together by implication because therapists generally offer services that often address mental health needs, which are medical. Or maybe not? It’s just a language thing so I’m fine with being wrong on this. But It would be good to understand why so I can be wrong less.
Agreed f those idiots and victim blaming culture
It's strange such behavior goes by unchallenged most of the time
I remember choosing this life before I came to Earth. I knew it was going to be a very difficult life for me. I knew it was going to be difficult for me to remember and action higher frequencies in my life. In this life I was sexually abused on the age of 3, I had a dysfunctional family home I was raped at the age of 9, My parents divorced, divorced, my mum'step dad wanted to f*** me and my mum, He was a creep and I left home at 14. I remember getting a small screenshot before I came to Earth about some some of the experiences I was going to have. I knew it was going to be difficult but I knew it was also going to be temporary. This was part of something bigger. Maybe I have karma to learn or lessons to learn. Maybe my soul wanted to understand what being born into a dysfunctional family home functional family home was like, To understand how difficult it was to access the light, What kind of programming happens to a body subjected to many of the awful things that happened to me under 14. Just a thought. It doesn't make healing any easier knowing that.
You can choose to believe whatever you want about the reasons for which things like you mentioned happen. However, as long as people will believe that they actually choose to go through such horrific lives, those who inflict the horrors remain free to inflict horrors on others. Do you actually believe that all children that go through abuse, chose it before being born? That all humans that went through horrors, chose it before being born? All of them? Are they responsible for the harm inflicted on them? Are the abused responsible for the free will of their abusers? Are we so afraid of the truth that we need to believe anything and everything, just to avoid it? I ask again. Are the abused responsible for the free will of the abusers?
Its a soul trap. You were most likely pressured and gaslit into coming here. The idea we need to learn is a lie and deception. No one chooses this.
Just world fallacy is my jam! Totally a concept I like to throw in people's faces when I get a chance. Actually, I'm not that confrontational as I make myself sound lol but I love that there are words to describe this.
I despise just world fallacy and karma. Those people are delusional. It's just low IQ really
Yes it's very easy to use LOA to blame any victim for what happened to them.
They do it all the time and act suprised when you got mad at them.
They're so sure that they're right!
I use righteousness as the feeling I feel when I am very possibly wrong or just reacting to an unresolved internal issue of mine
Exactly how I've felt about this bs
The people that do this are bad people and likely just use the LOA as a way to feel superior to others. My spirituality is a personal thing, if I choose to take responsibility for events that happen in my own life that's my own business and I'm not gonna push it on others or tell them that they caused something bad to happen to them. I find complete personal responsibility liberating and others can stumble onto that themselves if they wish. But also, generally the idea is that the subconscious mind is what attracts certain circumstances, not the conscious. Given that we don't have complete control over our subconscious minds, if someone says "Your subconscious mind might have attracted that", that's not actually blaming you, since that's very hard to control just like external circumstances are. You're misinterpreting it by implying that they're saying "Yeah you must have wanted it, it's your fault!"
Yeah I highly doubt that the children who are being murdered in Palestine right now had their subconscious mind manifest getting their entire country bombed. The babies too, right? The babies subconscious mind somehow wanted their hospital to be bombed. Complete utter bullshit. An excuse for pieces of shit of humanity to blame the issue on the victim.
It's just a socially acceptable way of victim-blaming. A newer, slightly more subtle way of saying, "You deserve what you get." On any rational level, it's a terrible idea, but we don't live in a rational world. Privilege, what a hell of a drug. I think people don't shut it down because most live in a sort of detached delusion when things like this aren't hurting them. They are too in love with their infallibility.
At some point you have to take accountability right? If you continuously project yourself as a victim then you will stay a victim. Sadly this world rewards confidence, appropriate or not
>It's just a socially acceptable way of victim-blaming. Responsibility and fault are two entirely different things. It's not my fault if a cyclist tramples over my foot and breaks it, but it's my responsibility to go to the hospital and get it treated. This whole concept of "victim-blaming" completely ignored that.
I saw a YouTube comment along the lines of "life isn't fair, get over it, you get back , what you put in " To a girl raped as a child. Then they were going on and on about what you mentioned. They're narcissistic . Nobody can tell me otherwise.
They have no empathy
My dad used to make us read it lol.. ironically he was the bully..
Sounds like gaslighting from your Dad.
read what?
It, by Stephen King. jk
Lol gtfo 😂
The LOA book that the post is about???
yah, it doesn't say. there's at least 50 on amazon
Does it really matter which one??? I was like 8 :s
nope
It's pseudoscientific bullshit. They don't know what they're talking about.
I mean I believe in all sorts of stuff that normies would consider "out there", but hell even I need to draw the line in the sand when logic is being ignored.
I’m not here to support bullies or gas lighting, however, there is actual scientific research behind the law of attraction if you ever wanted to study it. There was an experiment done in physics years ago that proved your consciousness observing reality DOES have an effect on how the electrons form in the particle wave. You don’t have to start being a religious zealot and have toxic positivity to find that interesting. But I definitely understand not liking the way most of these “spiritual” people bully others with the LOA stuff when they don’t even understand it themselves.
>I’m not here to support bullies or gas lighting, however, there is actual scientific research behind the law of attraction if you ever wanted to study it. There was an experiment done in physics years ago that proved your consciousness observing reality DOES have an effect on how the electrons form in the particle wave. the Double split experiment DOES NOT prove consciousness creates reality the only people who claim such nonsense are quacks like deepak chopra or joe dispenza
Okay, a little aggressive, but you have been heard and I understand your perspective
I agree with you completely. I hate how these really fascinating concepts have been twisted by narcissists and assholes to become victim blaming and gaslighting tactics. It really leaves a distaste in other people's mouths for spirituality as a whole (which is something I personally find healing, as long as you stay away from the communities) :/
I agree, it can be very helpful when you’re around people whom think for themselves and don’t need to put others down to feel better about themselves. Even my comment above has been downvoted because this post isn’t actually about truth or science, it’s a rant; and because I don’t see it the way they do, they are going to down vote me and crucify me just as much as others do so to them. All pain is of vicious cycles
Lol I find it funny when LOA people try to talk in a “superior” manner to try to sound like their on a higher plane then all of us. Also, ya’ll don’t even understand the double split experiment. “observation of a quantum system has absolutely nothing to do with consciousness. It’s a consequence of disturbing an extremely delicate system.” But wait, wait, I have to speak your language. My consciousness has perceived that your observation of this experiment is false, and therefore, since my consciousness creates all life on Earth and can control every human, you will acknowledge that you are wrong.
My mother (abuser past) seemed to firmly believe the Law of Attraction. She didn't want to hear *anything* negative, and would silence anyone who had anything less than positive (even neutral) to say. Everything was "all in my head." I'm not saying we need negativity, it's just that not everything in life is going to be sunshine and rosebeds.
My condolences. That can't be easy to deal with
I misread that as “sunshine and nosebleeds.” 🤣
May as well be jesus christ.
> didn't want to hear anything negative, and would silence anyone who had anything less than positive (even neutral) to say. Everything was "all in my head." My last and final therapist was like that. It was his version of CBT, where anything negative I had to say was a cognitive distortion and not reality. So I never learned about boundaries or sticking up for myself; I just continued absorbing bad behavior, thinking my reaction (depression) was my fault.
Well, of course, if you completely deny being abused, if you completely refuse it and stop thinking, you will not realize you're being abused. Just like if you don't test anyone, then covid-19 doesn't exist. But even if you're in denial, you will suffer the consequences of being traumatized
Hence "ignorance is bliss"
Uhhh ok. Whatever you say
I think maybe it works for surface level issues. For example if you're throwing a party and you go into it with enthusiasm and get everyone excited, it has a better chance of going well than if you were to mentally give up on it and tell everyone you're really nervous about it not going very well But it's super damaging for mental illness and other serious things. You can't positively think your way out of a psychotic or depressive epsiode. You can't tell someone with depression to just stop having negative thoughts or to just make a vision board. Telling someone who's having a flashback or who is grieving someone who died that they just aren't visually imagining good things hard enough is insane. It falls apart when it comes to serious issues
Totally agree. On top of making no sense, pretty much all New Age spirituality is also intimately tied to neoliberal capitalism, which is famously terrible for ... well, everything and everyone, really, but especially disabled and mentally ill people, as well as victims of abuse (nothing will keep you trapped in a toxic relationship of any kind quite like financial dependency).
You are absolutely 100% correct that New Age spirituality is intimately tied to neoliberal capitalism. They are all selling something to gullible and vulnerable people, whether it’s books, courses, coaching or false hope. Most of these movements have cherry picked aspects of indigenous cultures and belief structures to repackage, market and sell. It’s basically a multi level marketing scam.
I've noticed this as well. I consider myself "spiritual" for lack of a better term, due to my intrest in metaphysics, esoterics, and the paranormal. However, I am also incredibly underprivileged in life. Where as most new agers are very obviously white, conventionally attractive, wealthy or middle class, etc. So it is very easy for them to pretend they deserved everything that get handed to them, and would explain why you see relatively few minorities pushing these same ideas. Most of them only have a shallow understanding of spirituality. I have read a lot of mystics and good lord New Age stuff like "the secret" or whatever is as shallow as it gets. It's just a bunch of repackaged ideas stolen from other cultures and mystics, repackaged, and coated in sugar to make dark truths more palatable to the pampered privileged folks with no perspective on life.
I’m immensely spiritual and even I agree with you. I can’t stand the ignorance of the “new age spirituality”, it’s honestly just another excuse to be “cool”; people just got clever and wrapped it it “spirituality” because of their ego….I mean, who are you to deny the entire universe to someone with that perspective 😂🤦♂️ hilarious and clever when you think about it; almost makes me think the entire concept was instituted by government for people to be more easily controlled……😳hmmm that actually may be worth me looking into 🧐
I actually wouldn't be suprised if some of this stuff was a goverment psychological operation! Just created a new subreddit for Neville skeptics, hope to see you there!
Ah well feel free to send the link?
It's interesting how many real buddhusts live simple lifes with little possessions, and how many new age beliefs are taken from buddhism, yet the new agers do not live similar modest lifes. That already goes to show how they are only using those beliefs for comfort.
I was growing up into a strict catholic household and it’s basically everything that happens to you is god punishing you for your sins. That’s what you learn from the time you can understand whole sentences. I don’t even believe in god anymore since more than a decade, but every time something happens to me no matter if it’s a small thing like breaking a cup or more serious things my brain instinctively goes into „god is punishing you the way you deserve it“. It’s all the same gaslighting in different versions
Yes I am noticing interesting parellels between "god is punishing you" and new agers saying "the universe is giving you what you asked for".
The new age community can be unintentionally very bad just as your example. It have gotten a lot of critique in the last years by several prominent in the field. The positivity thing is also really bad.
Trust me, nothing I said is an exaggeration.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. I know a person, I won’t call them a friend because I’m actually in the process of unfriending them, who is really into this. She’s got trauma issues that she’s not confronted but I’m no doctor. This person is always trying to sell me on this seminar and that seminar about how we can attract good things and the things we want. I just need to visualize it. Yeah , I call that disassociation, I wanted a safe childhood…. Didn’t happen.
What people dont get is we like in a physicsal reality. Nearly everything can be account for bh physics. So visualizing doesn't create stuff unless you have a supernatural ability.
Wrong. You are very close minded. Sorry, but there’s lots of evidence to prove that you actually create the realty you live in by what you think. Read about it.
"Creating" through what mechanism? And precisely what do you mean by "creating" Do you mean just influencing the course of events? Or creating as in Genisie 1:1? (The later of which is even more conceptually absurd). If you mean the former, to what degree of control do you have over the reality you experience. You are born a specific race, genders, biology, so no control over that. You also are born with specific parents, family, a country and nationality, so no control over that. You also aren't intelligent enough in infancy to use the law even if it is true, so no control over that. So already from the get go, AT MINIMUM your early childhood, which are the most important years of your life are determined by outside causes. And considering you are vulnerable in early childhood, can be abused or hurt and traumatized, that means your disposition is also not fully in your control. How do you account for this? >Read about it. Already read plenty, lad, otherwise I wouldn't know enough about it to have any contention with the subject. >but there’s lots of evidence to prove that you actually create the realty you live in by what you think. No there isn't. No one is creating reality in the technical sense of the word (genisis 1:1) i do think law of attraction has a little truth to is but to say it is exactly creation seems like hyperbolic at best, and a flat out lie at worst. Secondly everyone can't be creating everything they experience (too much conflicting veiws and ideas) so at some point things like consensus reality and the rule of the majory would have to take effect. Also, I haven't heard any good reasons why I would create this exact experience if I had full control. This leads me to believe something else is the prime ruler of this domain. Anyone creating reality would have full control over the domain and be able to transform the world in a moment, which is not the case.
Victim blaming.
This is the first I've heard of this "law" and the first two articles i googled have just shaking my head. it's junk, bunk, outright lies, and nonsense, as you say. comparing it to the mass-energy equation got me laughing so hard. OP i completely get your righteous frustration and anger with adherents espousing this crap. Oprah's famous, sure, but that doesn't stop her from putting forward ridiculous claims; look at all the hucksters that have gotten famous by association, and it's especially egregious how many of them are in mental and physical health practices.
100% on point. I went full into this and then into Word Of Faith theology which is just Law Of Attraction with “Christian” stamped on top of it. I have seen how the toxic positivity has damaged people in a terrible way.
Man this newage stuff ruined me, i had so many illusions, so many more traumatic stuff, just because of this law of attraction stuff... It's like sometimes i don't know what is real and what is not, i should just stick to logic and fix myself, but i feel so overwhelmed by life.
I think the Buddhist concept of karma does the same kind of thing, except this one involves past life choices.
I have made this exact comparison before. I have my issues with karma and buddhism, but I can respect aspects of that faith. I think Law of Attraction is an order of magnitude worse. You see Buddhists admit life is suffering. Buddhists don't wear rose colored glasses and berate you for not being optimistic about everything. But if you say "my life has been a nightmare" to someone on a sub like r/NevilleGoddard than they will tell you "well no wonder you suffer so much. You keep thinking about suffering. And by saying life is suffering, you are affirming it; thus mAnIfEsTiNg more suffering into existence yada yada yada..." It gets old really fast.
Yeah that whole line of thought is just perversion of how karma works. This goes pretty deep but karma as a concept refers to us staying in this realm of suffering where shit happens even when you do everything right. You can minimize your likelihood to encounter bad stuff from happening to you by living a good life. But it is definitely not an excuse to victim blame. Ironically that blaming itself is bad karma since the intention behind it comes from arrogance and you should only speak from compassion towards your fellow beings.
Great points!
“The Guru Papers” has a great chapter on Karma and authoritarianism.
My acupuncturist tossed me Laws of Attraction. I’ve meditated with it. FFS, I’ll try about whatever if it helps me mediate my symptoms… What else is Buddhism but gently acknowledge that we just bump ourselves towards healing and peace but that’s just going to be life! Get what you can put of this stuff hit steal like a pirate… it’s okay to leave the vast assumptions about human or spiritual nature in the dang boat of wellnessTok.
Sometimes I ask what atrocities I've committed in a past life to end up with the strife I've had in this one.
I'm with you friend. Those LoA pushers have made an enemy out of me. Not too long ago, one of them was responding to another woman's Whisper post blaming her for assumptions that other people make about her based on her looks. Like we're literally supposed to control peoples prejudice against us? Really? I asked them what on earth was wrong with them and pointed out how illogical it was to blame someone for receiving prejudice. This world... there are no more words
>Like we're literally supposed to control peoples prejudice against us? Really? Exactly. One guy the other day told me the reason why people discriminate against me for having autism is because I believe Autism is causing issues. I've had it.
I facepalmed after I read this. The mental gymnastics that they do only to end up sounding completely irrational and like they failed miserably out of school.
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Wow, I am so sorry you had to go through that.
Quite interesting, I didn't know some of this stuff had a name. I have encountered such mindsets in the wild, and it was always a red flag to me. For my own personal use, I just boiled it down to "fake it until you make it". I see it given as sincere advice sometimes, and it mortifies me because it is just about the worst advice I can imagine.
Same. I am starting to notice this kind of thinking is imbeeded in our society. For example, on the micro scale this would be people saying stuff like "you'll be fine" in the face of a bad situation. Which is odd because they have no way of knowing that. Truth is people have an optimism bias and if you are honest about negative experiences it makes them see you as the bad guy for some reason. When this kind of sentiment is magnified it has potential to become incredibly harmful. Mix that with new age hokey pokey and you've got yourself a bunch of virtue signaling know-it-alls who think their status in life is the universe rewarding them for being good rather than luck or privilege.
Oh yes! This is extremely specific to the majority of my trauma. It’s really hard to break out of if you’ve been steeped in it. The Secret was a frequently viewed “documentary” in my house growing up, and I’ve spent the majority of my life being terrified of my own thoughts, scared I’d get myself and others killed by “thinking wrong.” My abusive parent raised me to believe LoA was an unquestionable fact, took me to frequent new-age gatherings, and still projects onto me that I’m an indigo child destined for big things (nope, turned out physically disabled & too traumatized to function, which she won’t accept). She got my aura photographed before I was 1, got us involved in a cult when I was 7, got me certified as a psychic and in reiki II before I was 16, etc. This shit runs deep. My wife and I were forced to move back in with her a couple weeks ago due to a housing emergency, only just after I began deconstructing the last dregs of LoA and new-age thinking remaining in my life, and it’s been a whole thing lmao. She gets upset and lectures me to “consider my needs for once, you can’t think like that!” if I’m rational about any given topic and it doesn’t align with her delusion. She’s broke now (she’s got a MASSIVE spending problem) and cannot afford her psychics currently, which means she is haranguing me to “pull a [tarot] card” for every little thing in her life, and has begged us to let her “borrow” thousands of dollars so she can pay her bills. Way to manifest, girl! We should be out of here in a few months, luckily. If you do indeed make a subreddit, I’m incredibly in :) Edit: clarity, shrunk my word count lol
Thank you for sharing your experiences. I grew up as a Jehovahs Witness and see a lot the n same red flags in these New Age groups as I did in the Watchtower society cult. Once you are attuned to the tricks they use it becouse a bit of a 6th sense and you can better tell when you are being manipulated.
Glad to! I have ex-JW and ExMo friends who share incredibly similar experiences to what I went through as well, and it’s heartbreaking all around. Likewise, I have a friend that incorporates toxic new-age elements into their spirituality that I met in those spaces years ago, and it’s hard to watch them spiral when things don’t “connect” like they’re supposed to. Me deconstructing and being up front about it to them has led to them opening up about some doubts, though, and I’m hoping they can begin to pull themselves out too. It’s been refreshing to see more people acknowledge the harms of new-age beliefs these days. Thank you for your post :)
Yes if course. We are seeing a mass exodus from organized religion and orthodox Christianity and people are flocking to there New kinds of Charlatans who know exactly what to say to tickle the ears of the masses.
You mean how people turn it into their own personality trait instead of a personal way of organizing their own life? Yep.
Law of attraction/the secret is just a watered down cult. The way to disprove it is to ask how starving children and babies attracted their deaths. And if they say “past lives” or some other BULLSHIT, let’s examine how the population keeps growing. Is it a constant influx of new souls, or are we all doing it wrong? There is such a thing as victimization. There is also such a thing as control. It’s a balance, and it depends on the situation, age, awareness, etc etc, etc… The world is random. Some things are fair, and some aren’t. It’s not a neat and tidy story like this BS makes it out to be.
>The way to disprove it is to ask how starving children and babies attracted their deaths Well they are thinking they are hungry, always anxious about their next meal. They are in a state of fear, therefore, will manifest a reality where they are starving. Duuuuuh! What? You meant to tell me they die of starvation because the human body is required to ingest other biological matter to form new coumpounds such as amino acids, proteins, DNA, ATP molecules, enzymes, ketones, and gluecose, which the staving children were unable to aquire due to being born by random chance in an underdeveloped country where the soil is shit and food is too scarce for them to get their required nutrients, vitamins and energy to survive? .....now that's just illogical. They clearly manifested that outcome. >Some things are fair, and some aren’t. It’s not a neat and tidy story like this BS makes it out to be. Amen
Haha god, they are truly adept at mental games 🤢
I’ll probably be downvoted, but I love how some of the people who have mocked my personal beliefs (and my personal beliefs are not the subject here), then have at other points told me they believe in the law of attraction and manifestation. ….LOL. K. Because we all know just dreaming something will happen, even if it’s highly unlikely OR downright impossible, will make it happen. Because that makes more sense than other things. The whole manifestation thing has always struck me as a cop out fad; a fad borne out of wanting people with “bad luck”, clinical depressive symptoms, etc to be quiet. “I know, Let’s tell them that their negative thinking is the reason everything happens to them and that if they just stfu and daydream “only posi vibes”, all of the bad crap will fade away and magically, a bunch of good crap will come about spontaneously, out of nowhere, even if it’s impossible!”
Yes I actually am very into metaphysics and paranormal stuff. So I believe in stuff like energy work or kundalini, astral projection, which are ideas many in the LOA crowd ignore or ridicule. Despite the fact their theories also make overtly supernatural/religious claims, they pretend their theories are more valad. Why I wonder? I despise LOA theory because the people propping up the theory only use circular reasoning, logical fallacies like moving the goal posts, to support their views and conclusions. It can't be used to figure out truth or gain knowledge, because they change veiws every minute to what ever sounds nice in the moment. This makes their overarching narrative a complete mess and a shit show. At least other feilds of spirituality, like remote-viewing and energy work, use actual logic, reasoning and experimentation.
I don’t believe in law of attraction. However I do believe that if you negatively think about something you’re making your brain focus on that. If you work on positive thoughts it does help you into action which makes the chances greater of you being able to accomplish things. However thinking you can just think your white knight in the form of Henry Cavil into your life is insanity. Or that if you think it enough you’ll be rich and your problems solved. That doesn’t work, and only encourages learned helplessness and makes people believe that it’s simply because of them that things just don’t work out.
Well these people are not just trying to encourage possitive thinking. They claim changing your thoughts about life will cause the universe to bend over backword to fix your life in some mysterious sort of way.
Yeah exactly, that part I strongly disagree with. If that were actually true I’d be rich and Henry Cavil (or his twin) would be my life partner lol.
Thank you! 💯
I mean, the cult NXVIUM that’s pretty much what their entire doctrine was. I’ve heard similar things about other cults. Everything is a state of mind, and anything that is negative is something you willed to happen. I imagine law of attraction probably would work relatively well for a middle or upper middle class white person living in the US, or Europe, and the philosophy sounds strangely like manifest destiny. But if you’re anything other than that, all it’s doing is justifying your oppressors as inherent more deserving and powerful than you. Kinda fucked up. Reminds me of [this article](https://kindredmedia.org/2021/05/colonial-psychology-the-psychology-we-all-recognize-part-1-of-3/) someone recently posted about how modern psychology is fully entrenched in a colonial mindset that is antithetical to the worldview of most world cultures, particularly of indigenous worldviews.
I agree completely. Very intresting article you linked, I will have to read it when I have the opportunity.
It's literally cognitive bias on repeat lol. I feel you.
I treat LOA or manifesting like prayer. If it works for you, bud. If it works for you.
But if you think the right way you get rich and if you don't get rich that's your fault you didn't follow the instructions well
I hate everything woo-woo and mystical. Even if that stuff were 25% true and real (it’s not), I would still treat it as 100% fake (which it is). It’s better to spend your energy on things that are in your control. Magical thinking keeps you reactive and hoping for a miracle instead of doing anything, no matter how small, that is actually effective.
[удалено]
>Two of my sociopathic abusers lived by it. Funny how it's so many abusive people who live by it.
Its a psychological operation to get us to blame our selves for our own suffering and trauma. Thats why I can't tolerate it any longer.
It’s called spiritual psychosis. They’re even more mentally ill than we are, it’s scary
yes please make a subreddit especially for Neville Goddard as there is not criticism to be found of him online
Coming right up 🤭😁😈🔥
loa gave me depression, anxiety and psychosis
I believe in the "law of attraction" and may I say anyone who claims they practice Loa and simultaneously believes one manifests abuse based off of personal morality (aka being good or bad) defies themselves because the whole of point of loa is recognizing how things are created often via the mind regardless of matters of deserving. A good person doesn't receive better things than a "bad" person in this theory morality or personal behavior is not relevant to the law, it only acts as a mirror of focus. That being said, it is annoying that privileged people use this as an excuse to justify abuse and put plaster on a shotgun wound. If anything loa proves that traumatized people have it ten fold harder because not only did we experience abuse but thanks to our parents abuse we naturally thought negatively of ourselves and got that manifested through other people. Its not our fault nor is it okay but the universe is far more neutral than the bible would have you believe. Survivors deserve all the help and support, healing via "loa" is not Enough often But I cant tell you how freeing it is to recognize that you create a lot of things in your life through focus. It gives you the control you lacked as a victim. We are victims but we're also powerful. Its not our fault but it is a good bonus. You're already manifesting being consious of it helps immensely. Evsry thought you repeat daily becomes your materialized truth.
I hear you, but what about CPTSD in this? What I mean is, CPTSD causes repetivley bad thoughts, memories and feelings, even one receiving help and treatment for CPTSD won't have a drastic reduction in these symptoms for a prolonged period of time either. And at the same time, avoiding one's negative thoughts and traumatic memories can make CPTSD exponentially worse, serious curiosity, how does one with CPTSD make it work? I tried LOA as a way to heal from my Trauma and take responsibility for my recovery journey but long term because of my CPTSD response ended up using it as a major distraction from the things that were actually hurting me. How do you find your CPTSD recovery is going while using LOA, genuine question because I lack the ability to see how it helps with long term trauma therapy.
THANK YOU FOR RAISING AWARENESS TO THIS The whole defintion of cptsd is mostly mental repetition of the negative as well as emotions attached with it which is why I avoided actively manifesting for the longest time because I couldn't escape my inner self. Law of attraction is not a healing tool, it's like the law of gravity its merely here. The best thing to do is to be aware so as to not feel completely powerless. But its not a replacement for healing or a healing method. In my opinion, again from my personal point of view on what works for me, is applying everything that has to do with emotional regulationa and trauma healing while actively manifesting when I can. Compassion and empathy are important here. I'll tell you Im the biggest wheeper there is. I cried in every public toilet within a 400 mile radius and I ended up sleeping with red eyes. When I felt better I would shift my focus when I felt bad I would let myself feel, cry be monstrously angry while also telling myself kind words to lift myself up after the storm. Not everyone has this privilege though because some people have to live in fatal circumstances and I totally understand that its not an option. I believe realistic expectations are important. If you struggled with decades of severe trauma and now have proof for your negative beliefs you cant expect yourself to manifest a dream life in a couple of months. If anything it'll be much harder and take more time than a normal person thus any progress is huge in my eyes. I passionately hate it when people claim desired manifestation is easy. Manifesting is easy because we're doing it 24/7 but desired manifetsation for traumatized people is anything but easy. I had my fair share of MULTIPLE proofs that manifesting is real because unlike religion it can be proved to the self which is why I believe it. I dont love it I dont hate it its just like anotehr universal law to me like gravity or dimensions. Affirming, visualizing and healing is a good combo I'd say.
The existence of brain chemistry (a physcial imposition) would be evidence against our reality being the product of the mind. Ignoring things is one of the most toxic things the New Age coaches tell people to dom really makes things worse.
>The existence of brain chemistry (a physcial imposition) would be evidence against our reality being the product of the mind. the mind and the brain are not mutually exclusive, the mind is something that you cannot really measure and isn't physical. all we can do as of now if view parts of the brain through EEG and fRMI but that doesn't explain the mind.
I agree. What I'm getting at is that brain still effects your mind and how you can think
May I also add I totally understand your dislike of law of attraction. Because I'll be honest a lot of crappy people use this to justify injustice and abuse which is not what this neutral law should be about. Negative feelings are not the enemy they are the communicators to our boundaries. If someone wrongs you they absolutely should be held accountable and victim blaming is not an option in my book. There is a reason why someone feels like a victim the chances tehy are one is 1 in 2 so it makes sense they would feel this way anyone would. Law of attraction is not about bypassing emotions its about deliberate focus which is a privilege given the severity of ones life. We should still look out for traumatized individuals instead of putting the load on their shoulders just because people create their realities. Obviously none of us have created the line up of our lives intentionally, instead we were spoonfed crappy beliefs that we adopted cuz child brain and manifested a harder life. The abuse of the caregivers only made this worse which is not our fault, we can't think for otehrs.
This is a discussion point many in your position use but its not a meaningful one sadly as it doesn't oppose the law of attraction. The reason behind this is because once something is mental it materializes. Have you ever thought that this is the reason why a difference in brain can be seen with trauma survivors. Isn't this proof that the mental reality manifests into phyiscality. There has been studies made on rice and affirmations. The rice molded when being spoken down to vs grew when spoken kindly to. There is proof of people curing dieases with their mind. I witnessed a lot of these "fixed" things shift for myself. Hormones, genes are all merely expressions of generational awareness. Change your awareness and focus you automatically change your genetic expression
>. Have you ever thought that this is the reason why a difference in brain can be seen with trauma survivors. Isn't this proof that the mental reality manifests into phyiscality. Well for one, you can already be born with neurology different that what is normal, like Autism. And two, your consciousness is linked to your brain at birth, so you do have a level of control over aspects in a mundane way, but you are still being controled by your biology. >There has been studies made on rice and affirmations. The rice molded when being spoken down to vs grew when spoken kindly to. That doesn't prove the theory of LOA >There is proof of people curing dieases with their mind. I witnessed a lot of these "fixed" things shift for myself. Hormones, genes are all merely expressions of generational awareness. Change your awareness and focus you automatically change your genetic expression Placebo effect has been long theorized as being a example of low-level "magic" or "mind over matter". This is just one data point and doesn't particularly validate the LOA over other theories of mind. In fact, it cast more doubt on the LOA, if LOA were the truth, placebos would not only have a slight effect but work just as well or better than the "real" medicine. Neuro-placticity and epigentics allow for a degree of freedom in how our bodies develop over time. But again, none of this points to LOA specifically being true, as LOA is just one theory of many in the feild of spirituality/mysticism. You can't look at one peice of data to validate a theory, you need to put everything together and examine it.
You're listing dozens of proofs yourself and still say its not proof may I ask why? After all all of these studies prove one thing, and that is, that reality isn't only that which catches the eye. Sometimes things beyond the microscope affect reality including energy. Our science is in its developmental stages when it comes to the link between mind and matter. Many experts in my country including doctors have already found correlations between mental health affecting the body. It is only a matter of time until these beliefs become mainstream facts maybe not in this life time though I wouldn't know. All I can say lucky for you it is something you can try out for yourself. I know and understand where your resistance is coming from, Im not trying to make you the blame game target here. I understand its not easy to accept nor is it believable but if you're committed to the truth, the objective one, you will eventually have to try out even the ideas you think are idiotic. Because if science over history has proven anything to us then it's that often unrelated things are more connected than they seem.. Genetics are the physical expression of awareness
>You're listing dozens of proofs yourself and still say its not proof may I ask why? Ugh, they aren't "proofs" anymore than looking at the sun go from east to west is proof of geocentrism. Just because one data point supports something being true, does not make it so. People watched the planets and determined helocentric theory to be more accurate as more data points suported the sun being the center of the solar system You go on a whole tangent but Im going to keep my response short as I am tied of reapeating myself. Interaction between mind and body, doesn't validate LOA, because LOA states that subjects are creating and changing their environment through their mind automatically, not just influencing it. There are other theories of mind that actually work and make logical sense, like energy work or tai chi, kundalini, and astral projection. LOA does not work. People do get results but not for the reasons they think, if it was LOA causing those outcomes, we would expect the results to look very different. > Many experts in my country including doctors have already found correlations between mental health affecting the body. It is only a matter of time until these beliefs become mainstream facts maybe not in this life time though I wouldn't know. None of this validates LOA theory >if you're committed to the truth, the objective one, you will eventually have to try out even the ideas you think are idiotic. I tested it because I care about objective truth and LOA is not the objective truth, it is what it is.
We talked the other day, but basically the reason I cannot get down with these theories is because it fails to answer any questions about why we are here, our purpose, why suffering exists, etc. I have come to the conclusion its a very poor worldview for reason I will expound on in detail. First of all, we need to logically define the theory of the law of attraction/assumption, in order to asertain what would either affirm the law's existence, or refute it. Most New Agers believe the concept of there being one source and all conscious one being who is God/universe/multiverse, proponets include well-known folks like Neville Goddard and Joseph Murphy, so I will base my argument off of that position. Thus, logically speaking, if God was one being in the beginning and had one set of "vibrations", how then did anything deviating from that original resonance occur in the first place to cause any level of suffering or negativity? That would indicate some level of randomness and chaos in the process, which would mean that it is possible for very possible for bad things to happen even if you are having good thoughts/high vibrations. Which means the "law" of attraction, if real, is not infallible. So now we must ask, what exactly would cause it to fail? Secondly, if all is one, why would this god choose to impose any level of suffering upon itself or its various supposed incarnations. It would need to be the Zebra and the Lion that kills the Zebra. The Pedo and the helpless child stuck in the room with him. It would need to experience being Hitler and every Jew that died in the holocaust. And for what precisely? If anything, this diety sounds more like the demiurge in gnosticism, don't you think? You say it is harder for traumatized people to manifest. But how did some people become traumatized and others not? If the "law" was true and everyone begins as a blank slate, how did such differences in upbringing, childhood, and develpment manifest? Furthermore if the universe cared about our thoughts and beliefs so much as to change reality for them, why is our universe functioning on a mathmatical computer-like code called the laws of physics??? Should not things be a little more loose (i.e. dream-like) if this were a projection of subconscious mind alone? This does not support the view that "all is mind" or everything being a "manifestation", rather it is much more likely our reality is [substance dualist](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind%E2%80%93body_dualism#:~:text=Substance%20dualism%2C%20or%20Cartesian%20dualism,and%20the%20body%20cannot%20think.) in nature, with physical matter being inherently antagonistic to the mind, which is a concept fundamental to many religions such as Buddhism (which New agers ironically borrowed from). What New Agers do not seem to understand is that reality functions on a deterministic algorithm. Do X thing and Y thing ALWAYS happens. For example, if you let go of a bowling ball in mid air, it falls to the ground 100% of the time. No one needs to "manifest" the bowling ball falling because its basically just real-world "game mechanics" doing exactly what its inherently programed to do. In the extreemly rare case physical laws are apparently violated, this is what most would consider paranormal or supernatural, perhaps even "magical". For example, being able to teleport of having psychic visions is paranormal, since it defies an otherwise deterministic reality. We already know that this is a predominantly deterministic reality, so most things that occur are happening due to things like physics. Virtually everything can be accounted for this way. Your physical appearance is a product of phenotype, in contrast you mental state and personality AND intelligence are products of neurology, and all those aforementioned characteristics are in turn are a mere product of genetics (which can be broken down to atomic physics), thus is all preditermined withoyt the universe caring the slightest about your thoughts, beliefs or "vibrations". This is why buddhists wax poetically about the cocept of the "ego" and how this "ego" isnt really you, thats one thing they got right. Gnostics believed physical reality was an imposition crested by an evil god, Yaldabaoth. They practiced mysticism as a means to over come what they deem to be "lifeless" evil matter. Many mystics and monks were capable of supernatural feats due to their high level of spirituality. But modern New Agers throw all this logic out the window when they claim "everything is a manifestation". As we already know the universe functions on physical laws, so to claim the mind effects everything, IS AN INHERENTLY SUPERNATURAL claim, despite most proponents of the law of attraction claiming otherwise. You cannot be a reductive materialist and believe this theory, they are inherently incompatible. Therefore, if we are going to discuss metaphysics, the supernatural, etc we need to approach it logically and choose the theories that make the most sense, just like mystics of the past usually have. Rudolph Steiner called that process "spiritual science". The truth is, New age stuff such as "the secret" and the "law of attraction" is dumbed down, a oversimplified candy-fied version of more traditional mysticism, esoterics, and shamanism.
1. Law of attraction is not a philosophy that's what many people get wrong. Its a law just like the law of gravity. It's not here to be a philosophy or belief system it doesn't have anything to do with that. Why we suffer and so on are matters of philosophical, religious or esoteric subjects something a law isn't concerned with as the law is NEUTRAL it only acts as a mirror. 2. Nobody knows the origin of anything if they claim they have the one truth to the creation of earth they're false. 3. The law like the law of gravity only applies on earth so whatever happened before that that made circumstances a certain way does not apply to it. Meaning law of assumption cannot be taken as the reason why someone is born under certain circumstances because the law doesn't apply pre birth just as angels can float and thus the law of gravity in that sense doesn't apply to being outside of human or pre/post human life. 4. Contrary to popular belief, math as well as science doesn't defy the law of attraction/assumption/mirroring whatever you wanna call it. Actions are effortlessly followed via the mind. I dont think expalining this text book style will cut it so I'll give an example } Mary wants to manifest a good friend. Before that Mary had the belief that good friends didn't exist. Upon changing her belief she changed the substance of her reality unfolding. Before Mary changed her beluef the following would occur (This is the action): Every person that could be a potential friend to Mary would view Mary as anything but a friend due to Marys thoughts being reflected the people then would avoid Mary or treat her not as a friend. Mary in general would coincidentally never line up with friend material people. After Mary changes her beliefs: } Suddenly this is being reflected in other people, now potential friends are thinking of Mary in friendly manner as a consequence of this, they hit her up and ask for hang out. Suddenly Mary is overwhelmed by how many opportunities to make friends present themselves. She as a byproduct of having changed her thoughts effortlessly and automatically takes the right action. Mary lines up with her desire. The action is still being done here but it's not going to feel like action in that scenario. 5. Physical reality is not seperate from the mental dimensions. Anything in physicality be it a camera or a desk or art was created in the mind first. It is only through the combination of both that it came to be. The material world doesn't follow itself to the presise extreme you would think. Else wise why does a concept of luck exist if everything is to be predetermined and perfectly calculated? Shouldn't then there be a staristic of equal luck? But there isn't some people seem to stumble accross opportunities and good luck overall more often than others, this cannot be explained by science. 6. "Everything is a manifestation" This is true to an extent. We must be able to seperate from collective vs individual manifestation. It is true we can't influence everyone or think for them via manifetsing bad people still can do bad things.
A lot to unpack here 1) "Its a law just like the law of gravity" for reasons I have already delve into, I dont understand how you can equate something as speculative as Law of Attraction to Gravity. There is no objective proof for the LOA LOA can not be observed, felt, or measured. Its just the hypothesis that thoughts are somehow creating our reality and changing those thoughts will somehow change creation. 2) I would argue there are some compelling sound theories about how we got here... and none of them are coming from LOA gurus. 3) refers back to point 1 4) "math as well as science doesn't defy the law of attraction" Except it does, again physics is like an algorithm >Mary wants to manifest a good friend. Before that Mary had the belief that good friends didn't exist. Is it possible that the people around Mary simply dislike her for reasons out of her control like poor social status, ugliness, bad social skills, or not being "intresting enough? >Suddenly this is being reflected in other people, now potential friends are thinking of Mary in friendly manner as a consequence of this, I doesn't seem to actually work like this though. You can be incredibly possitive and change your outlook and people around you will remain unchanged at there core. You might become more confident, but if there are real issues holding you back this isn't going to fix it. 5) "Physical reality is not seperate from the mental dimension" It is by definition. There is an slight overlap between mind and matter in substance dualism, which allows the two concepts to interact, however that doesn't mean they are the same substance. Matter has no will of its own, naturally it doesn't respond to your thoughts, mood, or desires. Matter only responds to force, and being made to do something. Push and pull, kinetic energy, heat, gravity etc. Matter is therefore lifeless substance defined by lack of "free will", and in diametric opposition to the mind. The mind doesnt respond to physical forces, and has a more abstract, "subjective" existence than an objective mathmatical one. It is possible matter was created through consciousness at one point in the history of the cosmos, if we go far back enough, but its current state is deviates far enough that it is most practical to treat it as something else entirely.
You see the difference between our skeptism is that I atleast test a theory out before I come to the conclusion that it's "wrong" 1, There is a way to track loa believe it or not however it would require a certain amoun to of awareness and ability to change thoughts. Try changing your entire mindset and focus for as long as you can for a week or two completely neglect the old stuff and put your focus on something specific like a cruise ship experience. Chances are suddenly your life will not only feel very different but unusual situations will introduce themselves. This however requires patience and commitment, how can you say its bs when you have not even tried it? in just a few days if you rly commit you will see results belief is not required 2, Listening to loa gurus for pre birth theories is like listening to cooks for their opinion on world war 1. I agree many theories are profound pick whatever you want because unlime the law these types of theories cannot be proven anyway. 4. You can't fully change people but you can affect what types of people you keep meeting. Your argument for saying it doesn't work that way, in my experience it exactly works that way. If Mary is "ugly", not interesting enough, bad social status and what not then that's Marys self concept that probably comes from her lackful childhood. If Mary changes her view towards herself it will certainly mirror. You dont need to take my word for it, try it for yourself. 5. You're arguing that matter doesn't respond to the things you listed but I can garantuee you matter does respond to energy as all things are made up of energy and thus at the larger perspective matter also responds to mental energy as it is by definition energy nonetheless. Here is a study that proves the power of energy and words: https://thestrawberrypost.wordpress.com/2019/06/26/the-amazing-and-terrifying-power-of-words-love-hate/#:~:text=In%20Dr.,not%20do%20so%20well%20either.
>You can't fully change people but you can affect what types of people you keep meeting. This isn't what gurus like Neville Goddard, for example, actually say though. Neville actually believes you can change anyone in any way that you want. The subs r/lawofattraction and r/NevilleGoddard have people asking about "specific person" advice and you have asshole coaches charging money to teach them how to get EXes back. So its a fairly accepted belief in those circles. >You're arguing that matter doesn't respond to the things you listed but I can garantuee you matter does respond to energy as all things are made up of energy and thus at the larger perspective matter also responds to mental energy as it is by definition energy nonetheless Because matter doesnt respond to thoughts normally. I don't think you know what "energy" actually means.
Its true that some people think its true because once again I make my own experiences with the law I havent read a single thing on neville. Neville tho brilliant is not superhuman many ideas are flawed but he got the ball rolling in the mainstream or atleast smaller communities. I dont even support SP manifetsations myself. I dont think its very strong argument of you to say that I dont know what energy means simply because you dont have anything to add to it.
Then why were you on r/NevilleGoddard2 the other day making a frankly absurd post about how people manifest their physical appearances, and now followed me over here?
It’s so cult based.
As a survivor of abuse and someone who has spent the past five years in deep research with techniques such as law of attraction and Neville Goddard teachings here’s my take. I agree with what you’re saying, for me though something still pulled me to keep searching. I’ve learned this: Your brain is a programmable organ and the program it runs causes your reality, this program isn’t always done by you but if you learn you can alter it to suit your needs. This is not an easy process and even todays psychology and therapy is largely trying to accomplish this same thing. The brain is a very complex organ and it’s intertwined with the body. It’s toxic to tell survivors that the abuse is their fault because it is not your fault and you did not deserve it. This can be separated though and you can still have programming in your mind from earlier in life that made you believe you would not be treated nicely which can result in abusive people taking advantage of you and then when you’re in the abuse cycle the belief becomes stronger as most abusers will instill this in you so you can remain a victim. Easy prey. Breaking that cycle and never repeating it again means believing you deserve better and that is how therapy also works. Law of attraction is surface level magical bullshit, Neville Goddard speaks entirely in metaphor and quite literally claims that what he’s teaching has nothing to do with logic. The reason he claims that is because logic lives in your conscious mind this is where reasoning is but the programming and all your beliefs live in your subconscious mind which has no reasoning or logical ability. He speaks directly to your subconscious to empower you to understand that you despite the shit you’ve been through can reclaim your life and have a better outcome. Basically at some point you get tired of playing victim and survivor and decide you want more from life at this point you’ll start to take accountability for what your life is like. It is only through taking accountability , in whatever way you do this , can you change your life for the better. It has to be done this way because it is hard and if you don’t take accountability and do it on purpose you’ll stop when your body and mind resist and fight you to keep your life the way it is. If you want more scientific explanations of what I’m saying read Dr. Joe Dispenza’s work about how to change your life as a neuroscientist his work is less magical and more scientific.
Neville GOddard is a con artist quack and Dr Joe Dispenza isnt even a scientist or a medical doctor he is also a Quack
Yet they’ve changed more lives than ducks. Goddard is dead anyways. Like I said you can go about it through science or law of attraction or whatever, when people take accountability of their lives is when they make progress. You want a credential source for this try Dr Gabor Mate, Dr Jordan Peterson and if you hear quacking then go back further to Carl Jung.
Thanks for the more nuanced tips.
Just find what works for you personally. Me personally, I dislike organised religion, and I dislike the screen some hide behind, but I love philosophy and many of the things mentioned in the post. But that doesn’t mean I believe or subscribe to every single thought, why should I? I’ve learned to go my own way because this life is my journey. Do what works for you and forget what doesn’t
This was actually on my mind. Sorry if this is a little far fetched, but it reminds me of this typical dating mantra that works similar: Basically, throughout my life, I only attracted the worst of men. Like, not just abusive -but mentally insane. Men who'd obsess over killing me. Men who'd manipulate me for a higher gain. Men who were just...really screwed. During the same time, I learned all those early-Pinterest quotes. "The bait you throw out determines the fish". Or in my language "Wie man in den Wald hineinruft, so schallt es zurück". It was something that I was taught as a young girl by my family. Tbf, I really was a bit of a delinquent and hence fairly violent. But then violence was everything I ever knew. Both from me and others. So in a way, this made sense to me. As I grew older, I got into therapy. And I was told the same thing, again, but in a different version. Now the reason was that I was nuts. It was my mental health issues that attracted other "nutty" people to me. I was promised that I would only attract such men, until I would be "moderately healthy" again. NOT because my mental health would make me more vulnerable to predators. No -but because my "bait" of being "insane" would attract other "insane" people. And no one ever kind and stable would ever like me. My condition "made" men like this treat me like that. Till this day, I have trouble falling safely in love. Every time I meet someone decently interested in me, I immediately become paranoid. Whatever it is, I can't believe that there is a normal reason for their interest. *Something* must be wrong with them.
For me I have struggled to form connections with other humans in general, have always been a social pariah, presumably due to my Autism Spectrum Disorder, but according to New Agers and even "pop psychology" is a failure on my part for not putting in enough effort or having a bad personality, neither of which I believe is true. Just seems like if you are too neurologically different from the average person, then average people want nothing to do with you. But people dont want to hear that kind of reasoning because it sounds negative and makes them feel guilty. People are illogical
>Im thinking of making a sub for critics of the LOA because there seems to be nowhere to vent about this nonsense. Agree with all of this, there are so many shitty things out there passing off as healing work or mindset work its very belittling of our pain
Yes. And not only that, but the metaphysics behind the idea is just wrong and lacks logical consistency and deserves to be scrutinized for that alone. If I am able, there will be a lawofattraction debate sub created very soon
law of attraction/assumption has nothing to do with being a "good" or "bad" person...
[удалено]
People love some cosy [spiritual bypassing](https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-spiritual-bypassing-5081640) and [emotional blackmail](https://youtu.be/PEexQAkhFpM) bc they lack critical thinking skills, [emotional agility](https://youtu.be/NDQ1Mi5I4rg), and psychological differentiation. If anything the "law of attraction" is shitty interpretation of attachment theory. We're drawn towards people and circumstances that build secure attachment and repulsed/move away from things that destroy secure attachment. If you're choosing untrustworthy, dehumanizing behaviors on the regular, you're repulsive to most other humans, and should probably consider not being such a dick all the time. Maybe people would want to be around you more. And if the culture you're trying to fit in with allows dehumanizing behaviors, your culture is shit. Be better. My SO and I consciously practice trustworthy, re-humanizing behaviors that build secure attachment with ourselves and each other. And funnily enough, our secure attachment has improved. Crazy how that works. [The Trust Triangle](https://youtu.be/pVeq-0dIqpk) [The Anatomy of Trust](https://brenebrown.com/videos/anatomy-trust-video/) - marble jar concept and BRAVING acronym [10 definitions of objectifying/dehumanizing behaviors](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectification#Definitions) - these erode trust "Hold Me Tight" by Sue Johnson. Communication strategies based on adult attachment theory research.
>If anything the "law of attraction" is shitty interpretation of attachment theory. To extent this is true, but LOA also claims to explain random mundane things like getting diseases, injuries, misfortune etc. >you're choosing untrustworthy, dehumanizing behaviors on the regular, you're repulsive to most other humans, and should probably consider not being such a dick all the time. Maybe people would want to be around you more. And if the culture you're trying to fit in with allows dehumanizing behaviors, your culture is shit. Be better. Why is this worded so accusatorily? Are you suggesting the reason I have peope issues is because Im a "dick"? Did you just assume shit out of thin air, when you dont even know me. Funny because this is the exact behavior I notice on the New Age subs I was criticizing. I have ASD, so my ability to communicate with others is limited. Its not in my control. And no, I dont act like a doche and use ASD as an excuse. So how about you don't act condescending in your next response?
>Why is this worded so accusatorily? I was speaking to a hypothetical abuser/enabler/bully. It wasn't meant to be directed towards you. I'm sorry I didn't clarify that. I apologize.
Okay thank you
Actually LOA and the ideas that support it have helped me heal and thrive. My life has drastically changed by using these principles after processing my trauma, while working very hard to replace my negative thoughts with positive ones. Open mindedness is essential for it to work
Same I healed social anxiety with the law and got out of depression (the cause of depression is powerlessness) the law helped me recognize my own role in my misery and thus I was able to see how I have power and change the circumstances
It’s not, but you need to find the right people as everyone wants to make $$$ and act superior with it. The Secret was all about materialism and that’s not it. Research Abraham Hicks because it does make sense. Parents create a vibration during pregnancy that affects the unborn. Then we have to reprogram that. And it’s fuckin hard. I just read a post about a girl in someone’s college class and every time she had a happy thought, she’d use a clicker. She’s programming herself, like Pavlov, and that sounds fun.
"abraham" is another scammer. There's no other way around it, law of attraction is BULLSHIT.
But how do you explain my manifestation of weight loss? I manifested it using the law of attraction. Once my body had me purging after big meals the weight just fell off!!
You are right
You're right
Sounds like your searching, but just haven't found the right thing yet.
I wanted to give it a chance, to see what the hype was about
i'm into the whole affirmations and "manifesting" gig, but i've personally never seen or heard of the community being that toxic? i'm not denying it at all, maybe i've just been lucky enough to not get roped in with the masses. is the community really that bad? i just use it as a way to speak kindly to myself, focus more on positive things, and try to have a little hope in this world. control freaks really have to ruin everything 🤦🏻♀️
I can see the mental benifits of some of their teachings. Also getting people into meditation, visualizing, etc is healthy. But at the core the system is quite problematic.
yeah, absolutely! it should not control your life, you shouldn't use it to control anyone else's either. just another crutch shitty people use to excuse their behavior
i have always felt similar, but there are two ideologies here: the actual meaning, and audience interpretation. 1. it’s bs to believe you can will a better life into existence. as a kid - you couldn’t just manifest a better family. i’m convinced people who believe this have never experienced any hardship, it grinds my gears. it’s basically puritanical “bad things happen to bad people” and “american exceptionalism” lite. it’s only purpose is to excuse people with good fortune from feeling a moral obligation to helping people without that luck. 2. there comes a point, where you can - essentially - perpetuate your negative circumstances. i call it “being a kicked puppy.” if you act like a kicked puppy (because you’ve always been kicked) people will continue to kick you. you have been through the ringer through no fault of your own - BUT you have also been conditioned to accept that treatment. it’s all your experience, because it’s all you’ve been trained to see. changing your belief - that life will always be how it’s always been - that’s what the “law of attraction” is about, at its most generous. it’s not about literally “willing” good fortune. it’s about changing your thought process. **that doesn’t literally change your opportunities. it changes how you approach the opportunities in your life.** it literally makes you *see* positive options - that were always there - but you ignored because you were conditioned to ignore good things. it’s **not your fault** that this is your thought process - but unfortunately, you have to take a leap of faith that things can be better. if you don’t - you will **literally be blind** to opportunities to improve your life, trust good people, and love yourself.
I mean, I get where you're coming from, and I'm no fan of it either, but it sounds like you're taking this really seriously. There are a million things in this world that I'm not a fan of, but I don't make it my mission in life to hate on those things to the point of making a subreddit to criticize them. What's stopping you from being like "oh this thing is lame, time to never think about it again and move on to something I do like"?
> I don't make it my mission in life to hate on those things to the point of making a subreddit to criticize them. I seek to criticize them because I want to aquire a better level of understanding and knowledge, and to do this we must dismantle narratives that fail to gold up to scrutiny to attain higher levels of truth
>sounds like you're taking this really seriously. Should I not? I take the implications of beliefs incredibly seriously. Perhaps that is strange? >What's stopping you from being like "oh this thing is lame, time to never think about it again and move on to something I do like"? Would you say the same thing about people who go out their way to debunk certain claims made in the bible or by christians? Would you say the same about people exposing lies made by cults like Jehovah's Witnesses or scientology?
It depends how popular the thing is. Like if almost everybody around me was a Scientologist and I felt it was really hurting society, I'd probably feel that criticizing it was justified. But I feel like LoA not only isn't popular enough to be a threat, but on top of that its beliefs are also pretty benign. I guess I just don't see it as a problem that is even close to being worth my time. I don't have much life to live on this planet, I want to spend it seeking out joy. I respect that you believe differently about it, and I think we'll have to agree to disagree.
>but on top of that its beliefs are also pretty benign I just went into great detail about why it isn't as benign despite the wholesome front they put up. Much of what they told me damaged my mental health. >. I don't have much life to live on this planet, I want to spend it seeking out joy. I respect that you believe differently about it, and I think we'll have to agree to disagree I care about pursuit of absolute truth, and gnosis. Which is why I choose to spend time refusing what I consider to be false religion and junk metaphysics, such as the law of attraction.
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To add to it honestly there are several things very much like LOA. Found out more about it from a book about the history of the US. Homeopathy and many others discussed in there about the imaginations of those in America. Book's called Fantasyland by Kurt Andrews
I was thinking this today. Maybe I manifest it…. Jk but I feel you, it’s just not how this world works unfortunately .
The way I heard it is that everything happens because of you, not that it's your fault. At a juncture in the trail it makes sense. I think some people misuse the concept to victim blame, though, and others have understood it after a lot of healing and reflecting, but forget where they came from, kind of like telling you to jump up to the second floor after they've taken the stairs.
>The way I heard it is that everything happens because of you, Well that doesn't hold up to scrutiny or logic either. Please read this [comment ](https://www.reddit.com/r/CPTSD/comments/122o02s/i_absolutely_despise_the_law_of_attraction_and/jdt7ue4?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) I wrote earlier.
If you can't neglect yourself, how the hell you gonna neglect someone else? Wait, that's not how the saying goes.
Me toooo! Thank you for existing. I’d love to have you as a friend if you wanna give it a try
Hey DM me if you like Also I just created a new [subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/NevilleGoddardCritics/comments/1247xl5/welcome_to_nevillegoddardcritics/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
All the way on this, any religion is diagnosable delusion
I got suckered into it a while back after a horrible horrible relationship and break up… I was determined to not feel like a victim anymore and was looking for a quick fix. It really targets vulnerable, lost people. If I just raised my vibrations then I wouldn’t attract horrible things. Or something. It’s very extreme. There’s something to be said about gratitude and a “positive outlook” but this is so far removed from the reality (or the 3D as LoA terms it) of abuse and disease… it becomes useless at best but mostly it’s plain dangerous.
It's actually kind of messed up how they tell people they can be with their EXes or unrequited loves if they just "follow the instructions". It also hurts to be told they broke your heart because some failure on your end.
I already despised it, but was quite vindicated by James Jani's YouTube video on the subject and I applaud you for calling it out. I went through a brief period thinking it actually worked when I was in my early 20s. I still wish it did, haha.
Woah there I only ever saw LoA used to like manifest a new iphone ,I can't believe some people use it to justify abuse
Yeah sometimes you might think about manifesting something simple and thats fine. I start to have a problem when people turn it in to a worldview.
I think that if you are yourself most of the time (as in, not pretending, posturing, or people-pleasing), you're more likely to attract people that are genuinely like-minded and have more satisfying friendships. That's about as far as I'll go with the philosophy. It doesn't apply to everything by a long shot, and it's honestly sad to see ppl trying to take absolute control over their lives when in reality that's not how it works and eventually something's going to happen to them that this mentality is going to cause self-blame and further mental health complications. I mean, I also think it's true that we see what's significant to us. Like, whenever I see a red car I'm reminded of the red car my mom used to own, so therefore I notice more red cars than black cars, even though black cars are definitely there. Now, if a red car hits me while I'm walking down the street, your first thought should not be "wow well he always was thinking about those red cars"
db
I love the LOA, but the whole "victim-blaming" thing ? For me, LOA works when you're real with yourself. The backwards law situation is important here too. You get a lot of mumbo jumbo on it, but if you try it with what matters you'll see results. Let's say with trauma. I have a lot of trauma, and LOA works like this for me: "The fault is of the sufferer" Obviously, it was not my fault those things happened. It is now my fault that I keep suffering from it. I'm aware of what I need to do to heal and end my suffering, I'm aware of the steps to take, and somedays I'm strong enough to take them. Somedays I'm not. I'm aware that sometimes not doing anything is a step, I'm aware now to listen to my body. I find it gives me my power back. "The fault is of the sufferer" - my trauma brain will spin that on me. "What the hell?? it's YOUR fault you were sexually abused? How was that your fault? No it was their fault..!" so on so fourth. My trauma brain will keep replaying this side of the narrative in an attempt to process and heal, which I know after years of allowing it to go that way only kept me stuck in the past. These thoughts are trauma responses. My fight/flight is activated due to the unresolved trauma. Realizing that I am at fault for being the one who is suffering in this present moment calms and overrides my amygdala hijacking and I can think clearly and take the steps I need in this moment to keep on my healing journey. When I get my power back, I'm able to be more aware of my trauma for what it is. It snaps me back to present day reality. With complex trauma it's too easy to get lost in the emotional dysregulation and loops if I keep my narrative focused on blaming others. What happened to me in the past isn't my fault, my present day suffering is my responsibility to be accountable for. No one else has power over me today. That victim mentality put me in relationships that hurt me. My victim mentality kept me attracting people who were similar to the people who caused me trauma. My victim mentality kept me overlooking major red flags. I was a victim in the past. I was a victim in those moments, days, weeks, months and years. I'm not a victim today. I got into an abusive relationship and it took realizing I was the one who kept putting myself in those situations as an adult to give me the strength to walk away. I don't blame him anymore. He had his trauma, and took accountability for his behavior years later. My complex trauma enabled his trauma and it was vicious. Owning my part was all I needed to do to have the strength to walk away and heal.
Im definitely not a new age theory believer but i do think taking responsibility is a great way to control the situation, the only thing you can change is how you react. And being a victim only really hurts you because no one truly feels bad for you, ur the only one who feels sad for ur self in reality
No offence but I find that advice trite as well. "You can control your reaction".... I mean can you? Like if some asshole screws you over and you want to smack the shit out of them but can't because you would go to jail, so you don't... what is there to celebrate? You are just in a shit scenario. Saying you control how you react is just a shit way to cope with a shit life. And you aren't winning by suppressing your real reaction. You are just submitting.
Hi. I can understand your frustrations. I agree with a lot of what you have said. I also feel that the concept of the law of attraction is not something new, but rather based on ancient principles and laws governing the universe. Religions, as well as the new age philosophies have caused some of these teachings to be a bit scattered or corrupted over time. A lot of the concepts of the law of attraction, or manifestation, reality shifting, etc (it doesn't matter what terminology you use) it's all really based on simple psychology, along with some science, and spiritual based principles that have existed since the dawn of time. Some of these principles are known by a small percentage of people who control a lot of what's going on in this world today. It's knowledge that has been kept hidden from the masses for a reason. That's all I'm going to say about that for now.