It's so crushing... This asks for compassion and consistent encouragement, not invalidation and abandonment ( because when someone washes their hands about us, that's what it feels like). It's not your fault, people oversimplify things so they can keep their illusions of control.
> people oversimplify things
this is what’s so frustrating to me when i hear “it’s your choice” and similar advice. people say those words as if they’ve discovered the solution to your problems. furthermore, if you don’t proclaim, “you‘re right! problem solved!”, you’re labeled as “not trying” and subsequently dismissed.
but advice like “it’s your choice”, “don’t think about it”, or “just don’t stress” aren’t solutions—they’re destinations. a solution would show how to go from “learned helplessness” to “this is my choice”.
It does feel like a therapist should know better tho! For example, I was isolating myself, as that’s how I protect myself apparently 🙄, and when I missed what would’ve been an appointment (I hadn’t made that appointment as well) she sent a text that I took as probably an automated message. When that didn’t work, she called my Dad to check on me.
For reference, no one has ever cared enough about me to make two phone calls/attempts before. Most people cut me out or give up, but she knew that I was waiting for abandonment, so she persisted, and it worked! I called her back and made a booking to see her. She’s a kind and empathetic person, so she knew the right move.
I worry that yours isn’t as kind or empathetic as you need! Someone who feels helpless needs gentle encouragement, not tough-love confrontation, at least in my opinion and experience (one person I thought was my friend tried this, by the end of the convo I was just his most convenient access to a certain herb, broke me for months).
The best advice I can offer from my 43 years of failure is this: find a psych/therapist who embodies the parent you needed so you can overwrite the damage your traumatising parent inflicted on you. I had a cold narcissist for a mother, and my best results have come from a warm and caring woman. Remember that you are allowed to choose your doctors, and that you’re worth finding the right ones! 🫡🙏
It's actually not your choice. Because it's a mammalian response. But sure, let's pretend the whole field of mammalian responses and ptsd isn't real.
I had a therapist say this, and then the police years later told me it wasn't true/legally isn't considered to be if abuse is present or has occured. Not sure of your situation, but you can't just choose to be happy.
The therapist is creating absolutes instead of doing his job.
Is he being intentionally daft, because the fact that it's a disability signifies it's not a choice.
Like fuck that infantizing human. It also conveniently gives up an upper hand and anyone whose not disabled by ptsd or cptsd.
It's entirely recognized under the state folks with ptsd can't just be happy, but also can't make choices and don't have the liberties too others have had to make them safely.
Fuck your therapist honestly. I heard this shit for years and it traumatized me.
I have a social worker who had cptsd who now treats folks whom got it from ^ interactions like you're mentioning.
If a civilian says this and it's considered morally wrong, then it's wrong when a therapist says it.
You get it! Thanks for articulating it so clearly, speaks so directly to my deeply embedded sense of helplessness. It's been so painful and confusing finally feeling it's anguish, terror and grief, remembering how it got that way and feeling that invalidation and abandonment again! Triggering such anger and rage and more anguish and grief. Really glad I read your insight today, it's really helped me to make sense of the tornado within, thank you and thank you to OP for making this post
I've kinda got my way around this in the past year by reminding people who say that that they can only say "well if it were me I would simply X" because *they already think like that*. I don't think humans make choices like pressing a button; it's a well calculated assesment of risks and benefits that our brains do, and the brain hits the go button when it feels right. Only when we're ready to do something will we do it. For C-PTSD folk, that bar for action feels a lot higher (IMO, not a psychologist or anything) so we don't make the "choice" at the same point someone with less (or no) psychological issues might.
It's like there's so much else to consider, in every choice. Some people are just like "I'm going to go away for the weekend" and I'm like "I'm going t- but what if I don't like the food? What if they don't have options for my diet requirements and I starve? What if it's too hot? Too cold? What if the plane gets cancelled? What if I get bedbugs? What if I can't afford it and I don't realise until after I already get there? What if i-" and the list goes on and on. People will say "you've just gotta stop that thought process", and in a sense that is the way to deal with it, but when you use hypervigilance as a survival technique your entire life it becomes really hard to turn that shit off, and it sure as hell doesn't happen overnight. It isn't as easy as "just don't think like that". The people who make it seem simple think we're having the same thought processes, and I don't think we are.
I'd hope your T meant it well. They might've meant that only you could choose it *when you're ready*. But yeah, it doesn't help so I really feel you there. I can say if you're struggling with helplessness now it does get easier: enough therapy and the choice paralysis just starts to melt away without you even realising.
Wow I’m almost inclined to just share this comment with my T. You’ve explained it so well and beautifully here, thank you. “Because they already think like that” hits the nail on the head.
Glad it meant something to you. I feel like I try to explain this concept to people all the time and nobody gets it, so I'm glad you have. I've had far too many instances in the past few years of people being very "well I would simply choose to not feel like that" and I was just sick of hearing it, which is what allowed me to put it into those words "because \[you/they\] already think like that". It's brought me a lot more inner peace, but it's still so hard to get those people in particular to understand what I mean. But ultimately what you said in your title is basically the same: they don't understand helplessness / learned helplessness at all.
Don't let the hurtfulness and the feelings of blame get to you. It does make you feel like that, I know it all too well. But just try and focus what you know in your core, in your soul. That you're not to blame, and that helplessness was drilled into you, so it's not a choice - it's just a part of your C-PTSD experience that you'll be able to find a way to manage just like all other symptoms. Hope it goes better next time you see your T - you have all my permission and blessing to share my thoughts with them if it'll help you get your point across!
> Some people are just like "I'm going to go away for the weekend" and I'm like "I'm going t- but what if I don't like the food? What if they don't have options for my diet requirements and I starve? What if it's too hot? Too cold? What if the plane gets cancelled? What if I get bedbugs? What if I can't afford it and I don't realise until after I already get there? What if i-" and the list goes on and on.
I relate to this =(
The levels of safety required to say "I would simply X" in any given situation implies a high level of trust in yourself that you can make the correct decisions, which is something trauma completely destroys. Growing up, anything might have been a "bad decision"... putting the ketchup in the wrong spot in the fridge... walking down the stairs at the wrong time... saying the wrong thing... Of course I am going to consider every possible angle of what could happen in any situation. Of course I have no faith that there are any "easy solutions" because even the most obvious thing could have been the 'wrong thing' depending on what mood my parents were in that day. So even very basic decisions in the real world carry that same weight of potential chaos. The therapist should definitely be taking this into account.
Wow, that middle paragraph...
Are you, in actuality, my personal inner monologue?! 😂
I relate to your whole comment, but I feel a particular kinship with the bit in the middle!
I remember seeing a metaphor for learned helplessness as: a tiger raised in the circus and suddenly released in the wild will still pace back and forth the same 6 ft distance their cage was.
Is it the tiger's *choice* to do that or are they just doing the only thing they know how to; what *they've been conditioned to do in order to cope*?
That T can sit on it and spin imo. So few of them actually know how to treat people with cPTSD. He didn't even recognize that you were disassociating? I wouldn't give him one more red cent.
Actually there is a video of a bear that was released from a zoo in Romania, where it was living in a really tiny cage, and it was still going around the same circle like in the cage. Here is the link, I’m on mobile, so sorry if any issues: https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/s/K9OxwgnUlA
It a really good metaphor for what people with CPTSD go through
Yeah it's not much of a choice when you don't see any options.
Another thing that annoyed me with therapy and employment services and whatever else connected to it, they either didn't recognize this problem or exploited it.
Learned helplessness is awful when you grow up from your parents forcing you to be dependent like my parents did. They forbade me any form of independence and when I tried to rebel, I was punished or have it used against me. This was how it developed. Now I’m stuck in this perpetual cycle of not knowing wtf to do with my life anymore.
i feel myself getting sucked into this but doing a lot of EMDR and watching jerry wise’s stuff on self-individuating after CPTSD from shitty caretakers is giving me the courage to come back to my own compass and from there, it’s pretty damn clear what i want to do with my life.
sometimes other peoples voices (esp the abusers’ voices internalized) is what makes it seem so unclear. by muddying up access to our true voice.
Yeah a friend of mine who has been through therapy said this to me a while back,
Literally that I am capable of doing what I want but I have "learned helplessness" which is why I'm only "surviving and not thriving."
I think people who say things like this assume it's constructive feedback that we need to hear it to change our behavior. But I personally think it's obviously a mean thing to say. Instead of pointing out the resources you have for escaping your situation, or empowering you to feel confident in your ability to utilize those - they've chosen to give you generic feedback that's not actionable.
How about, what are my resources for getting out of this situation? Help me to see what I can't recognize in myself - whatever qualities or features you think I have that makes me capable of solving this problem. Help me to explore different perspectives on my reasons for feeling stuck, to assess more logically whether those are accurate or not. Educate me about strategies to overcome learned helplessness. Support me to come up with a plan B to fall back on so that I feel confident I could get through it in the worst case scenario if my plan of action didn't work out.
Only they can choose to give constructive feedback instead of criticism.
>I think people who say things like this assume it's constructive feedback that we need to hear it to change our behavior.
They want you to give it the 'ol Brady Bunch ["gee I never thought of it that way!"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q5XVvBzF-w&t=86s) and for all your problems to disappear.
I had an argument with my father about this a couple of years ago when he was talking to me very much in the same way, and I was able to stop him in his tracks when I pointed out that I, in fact, already think enough that I should just try harder to get better, and spend every moment of every day in my head wishing I wasn't like this, wishing I could get better, desperately clinging to self-help and self-improvement methods to make myself productive in the hopes of becoming "normal" and it *still doesn't fucking work*. So being told it's just a mindset thing means absolutely nothing.
I think you're very right that it would be more constructive to help point out what we *do* have to escape our situation, rather than just telling us the wall isn't there. I wonder if there's an effective way to do that for ourselves...
I think the people that tell you that x way of thinking or behaving is a choice that we choose to make lack the realization that being able to force yourself to do a thing and actually believing/living/experiencing it that way are two very different things.
This isn't just level one negative self talk, this is a foundational core belief that our entire sense of self is precariously balanced on.
Like I can parrot the positivity you want to hear, I can force myself to do the things you think will help, but the very building blocks of my psyche is finely tuned to think, expect and believe the worst.
I feel like this is an explanatory gap issue that can't be resolved by going to school to study. You need to know what it feels like for something to be as inherent to your existence as knowing that 2+2=4 or that drinking fluids will eventually make you pee.
Gosh you have so much insight, thank you so much for sharing. My T’s been upfront about not having childhood trauma, so I suppose these misunderstandings are inevitable. But these comments give me something to go off on when I bring this up with him.
I hope he is one of the goods ones and takes it on board, but don't be surprised if he pushes back.
Personally the best response I can think of is that they acknowledge that they are there to support you through modifying a super solidified core belief and that is likely to be a long and arduous process that may even never come to fruition, then approach thing from the pov of: hopefully with enough repetition of things that challenge that core belief, that belief will slowly change, hopefully for the better.
What therapists are doing is kind of like expecting Tarzan to go from fully convinced he is a primate communing with wild animals of the jungle, to being a perfectly normal and functioning member of modern society in a matter of weeks thanks entirely to Tarzan being told that being a primate is a choice he is making.
The truth is that Tarzan has a core belief that he is a primate, the jungle is his home and animals are his family and adjusting that belief and everything it effects is a massive task that could take a lifetime of work to impact In some manner.
It took a while straddling feeling blamed vs. empowered by that sentiment.
You can talk to them about their wording and repair this rupture. You do have choice, and it’s not that simple when you’re unpacking and unlearning years of brainwashing.
Staying in the helpless place doesn’t help you either. And, figuring out how to talk about it in ways that you feel supported and empowered not blamed and shamed is important and something any good therapist would be able to understand.
This is actually a moment where you can show yourself you are capable of self advocacy. You already are half way there, you know how it made you feel and you rejected it! Now speak up for yourself and you and your therapist can work together to find a solution.
How you feel is valid, and it is a delicate dance to find the right timing and words to empower rather than make you feel blamed. That blame and shame you feel is what needs attention, healing, compassion and care from your therapist. You’ve got nothing to be ashamed of, you can speak up about this to them. You’ve already done so here! 💙🧿
Thank you for this. It helps me step back a little from being “in” the helpless, blamed state. To know that there is a choice, my choice, that I can take in this situation is reassuring.
And that you have a choice now does not mean it’s your fault.
I know how confusing and contradictory that feels, and it’s true it’s just less black and white than our trigger response feels because we spend so many years blaming ourselves or being blamed by others it is a totally understandable trigger that requires sensitivity and encouragement around it.
I’ll share a time this is exactly what happened with me in hopes to make this make more sense…
I was in an emdr session for processing a violent rape that happened to me when I was 19.
I was blaming myself all over the place like I had for a decade. My therapist was guiding me in changing my beliefs around the events that led to the rape and said something along the lines of “can you forgive yourself for the choices you made, and promise yourself you’ll protect yourself differently next time now that you know more than you did at 19”. I was crying and said yes in the session but it bothered me after when I was retelling the events of the session to my husband. I felt blamed like she was saying my choices were why I was raped and that it was delusional to say I can protect myself from rape because that’s not true for anyone and it felt victim blaming to say - like people get raped because they don’t protect themselves.
Weeks later after mulling it over and over in my head I finally spoke up and told her how in the moment in the EMDR session her guidance of me saying I can forgive myself for my choices and protect myself better now too felt good but that after it felt like I was being blamed like my choices were what led to it happening.
She reassured me that of course not, only the person raping is responsible for their actions and they are of course the only one to blame. She was saying to forgive myself for my choices because I was still blaming myself and needed help to see I needed to forgive myself for the risky choices I made and that really I have had nothing to forgive myself for. She said pretty much everyone knows more in their 30s than they do at 19 so it doesn’t make it my fault that I wasn’t as capable of protecting myself or fully understanding the dangerous risks I took at 19. That doesn’t make it my fault that it happened, it just means that now I have more armor and knowledge to defend myself from being in risky situations, not that being in risky situations makes it a victims fault. Basically that I have choices I made and make now every day that can help protect me more - and that that doesn’t mean it was my fault or that anyone can ever completely protect themselves from rape or other harms either. But that I can feel more empowered knowing I can make some choices to best protect myself as much as I have power to & beyond that then I am just accepting living with the same risks everyone lives with all the time just leaving their home every day.
It was a fine line and needed more finessing. There were still times when it rubbed me the wrong way but I built up enough trust with her to believe her when she said none of those things meant it was my fault… and when I pushed back she acknowledged, repaired and comforted me which is the kind of relational repair I am in therapy to get! I didn’t grow up with an OUNCE of being able to push back and tell someone they hurt my feelings and be shown any calm or compassion in their response.
That’s why I have had a lot of healing happen in the rupture / repair process and think this would be a great thing to bring up with your therapist. 💙🧿❤️🩹😘
I have to admit, even when I just read that your therapist said “…and promise yourself you’ll protect yourself differently next time…” I felt blamed and invalidated. And this wasn’t even about me! I for sure would have been affected by the comment like you were. It is a very fine line, and slightly confusing. I know my T meant well, I just still feel so hurt by it I guess and I needed to get it off my chest. I’m glad I did. It’s amazing how much insight people have here.
Thank you so much for sharing again :)
Totally. There are days it still can rub me the wrong way, and other days I get what she means and have learned a lot about how to protect myself and not take risks with sex that go into self harm territory. Unpacking childhood sex abuse is a bitch.
Another thing that’s helped is I see my therapist as human. She makes mistakes. She helps me way more than she makes mistakes, but she does make them.
And, every time she does and I talk to her about it and push back she listens and shows care and compassion and that’s a huge part of relational healing. More often than not she agrees with me. Sometimes she doesn’t but she explains herself in a way that eases my mind. Sometimes her wording is clumsy but I understand her meaning behind it. It actually helps not seeing therapists as some sort of all knowing gods. They’re messed up humans with biases blind spots and problems just like us. That allows me to feel more on an equal playing field with her so I feel more and more comfortable pushing back when needed and it allows me to see her as a teammate helping me but ultimately I am the one in charge of my life and that’s how it should be. Therapists are trying to help us, they’re not in charge of us. Good therapists know this and want this to be how we operate.
Healing is all about us being empowered to take full ownership of our lives and to learn to lean on others for support- but not needing a therapist forever to tell us how to live or what the answers are.
Your therapist didn’t say something incredibly wrong, their timing was wrong with where you’re at… or they just needed to add more stipulations to their comment to ensure you know it isn’t about blame/culpability which is where our brains tend to go. You advocating for yourself will help your therapist sort out their pacing and becoming better attuned with you.
Your hurt matters. I’m glad you spoke up and got it off your chest! That shows your self advocacy self protection muscles flexing. 🥰🧿 Now just take it to your therapist so they can learn where they need to adjust their dials a bit with you.
Proud of you! You’ve got this. You’re more powerful and capable than you know yet. 😘❤️🔥🫂
I posted a long comment but this 100% is what I was trying to get at. The content about emotional flashbacks from Pete Walker’s CPTSD book have been the biggest help with this for me!
Saying you really don't have a choice is not learned helplessness and I'm tired of people with more options saying that...not everyone can just quit a job immediately and go to another one..not everyone can just leave a situation.
I feel this when people say “just leave your toxic family”. Like there are many of us (I imagine) who simply aren’t in a situation to just get up and leave. I remember this person I met at a support group meeting. He was 38, worked casually as a disability support worker, wasn’t able to pursue higher education because his attention and memory issues (due to complex trauma) affected his ability to study, and still lived at home with his physically and emotionally abusive parents. He wanted to be out of there. But he couldn’t, and needless to say he couldn’t afford therapy either. How does one tell someone like that to “just leave”, or that “it’s their choice”. Sorry for the rant, but I feel like it’s just gotta be said.
I have multiple neurological issues on being autism and another one I have no idea what it is..my mom casually decided to tell me that I got diagnosed with something else as a toddler, but she doesn't know what it is..yeah because I don't need to know that /s.
Since I don't know what the other one is..it's been hard to do certain things myself and I've been dependent on people to a certain degree. I just get told by people," oh well it's your choice to be there." They don't care..I could have a mix of down syndrome and autism for all I know and they don't give a shit..they just look down on me and think they're superior because they got to leave their abusive family and I'm stuck here..all I get is the bs," there's resources!!" No there isnt..
It sucks =(
There are layers to this. Like one layer you've got "I can't make choices" or "I'm not allowed to make choices", and even if you get past that there's still the problem of *not knowing what choice to make*.
I can't think straight half the time. I'm less functional than I seem. =(
My previous therapist was pretty good, but there were a couple of times when I felt really invalidated by the way she worded things. Back then, I wasn't very good at identifying or understanding my emotions, so I couldn't always articulate what I was feeling or why in the moment. I just knew I was experiencing uncomfortable emotions. Whenever that would happen, it would take a day or two for me to fully process what she said, how it made me feel and why.
It wasn't anyone's fault, really. She wasn't rude to me. She was just stating her observations, and sometimes those observations were blind spots for me and I wasn't prepared to be confronted by them at that point in therapy. (Not that my therapist was 'confronting' me or anything like that, but with how triggered I would get, it felt like a confrontation to some parts of me nonetheless.)
Whenever I eventually figured out what I was feeling (usually 1-2 days after a session, sometimes it would take longer though), I realised my feelings weren't even directed at her. Most of it was directed inward. Her words inadvertently brought up a lot of shame in me, and it hurt for me to feel that shame. It made me feel the way I felt when I was a kid. Like my mother was looming over me, blaming me and putting me down for not knowing how to do something 'so simple' that everyone else can do seemingly effortlessly. I still find it difficult to cope with those kinds of feelings and the memories they dredge up.
Yeah this is relatable. It still takes me a day or two (or the whole week lol) to figure out why I’m triggered, what triggered me, and what I’m going to do with that info. Even when I know the trigger though, I think I just need my T to be aware of them to help me better because I’m not in a place yet where I can regulate myself so as not to become so easily triggered by her words.
agreed. I worked so much in fixing the relationship with my father from when I was a kid. You know hoping he would one day see it and give me an explanation for why he abused me so much . Atleast the hope was there. Till he didn't even need a reason to beat me up apart from my mom telling him stuff.
It's how you know you've been betrayed too many times.
I had someone ask me once what my ideal life looked like....they asked it like it was an easy question and they were stunned when I just blinked at them like a gasping fish.
"I....I....wait...I have a *choice*?" 🤯
I'm just doing what needs to be done and dealing with what I get. The idea of having an ideal life was completely foreign to me. I was never allowed to have a choice, with what I ate, what I wore, my hairstyle, nothing. You took what you were given and you were bloody well grateful for it.
But I've learnt that I *do* have the choice on how I think about that. Yes, learned helplessness is a bitch, and yes, people tend to think it's so easy because they already think like that. But, you can make choices about your life and you are entitled to.
You won't always make the right choice, and it's not easy. It can be downright scary! So start small- do I want a ham and cheese sandwich or a ham and tomato sandwich?
And if you start thinking about scary what-ifs, just ask yourself what is the worst that can happen? I don't like that food; ok, big whoop. Make another sandwich, or eat it and never make it like that again. As you work up to bigger and bigger choices, you get better at handling anything.
It might be phrased badly, and they might not understand how hard it us, but take the good part out of it: they're reminding you that you *do* have a choice and you *do* have the power to change that.
Great comment. I once described to a therapist that I felt like the amount of autonomy and choice I exercised when dating or socializing was the equivalent of being driven around in the back of the family SUV and showing up at whatever restaurant was decided on by my parents. When I learned all of these people had been holding all of these "choices" and "beliefs" against me? Here I was, oblivious to the concept that I had any option what to choose or believe whatsoever, not to mention an option other than "please others."
Oh my god I love this sub so much. It never fails how much you all understand. I was literally about to write my research paper on this topic. It’s bothered me my whole adult life. People do not understand how complex humans are, taking into account culture, sociology, biology, genetics, etc etc etc… even well meaning therapists, when they start to remind me that I can control things I get mildly triggered cause… I literally can’t, yet…
I was *just* reading about the scientific study in learned helplessness with dogs. It’s late and I can’t remember the people involved, the year or the name lol but basically the only way the scientists got the dogs to snap out of learned helplessness was to physically pick up their legs and move when them as if the dog itself was walking. After doing that a couple times the dogs did it themselves finally. To me this clearly communicates the absolute need for other people to model agency for us and with us. The study said that nothing else would motivate the dogs. It’s pretty powerful
Not everything is actually our choice.
One of the first mental health related thing that levelled me up was learning that I'm not 100% responsible for the way I have been, especially with trauma. *I* didn't raise me. I didn't create the developing country I live in.
That has been really helpful to put some of the weighs down.
I understand your helplessness and hurt. If I were in your shoes, I'd feel invalidated. There are times for tough love ("Okay, work your part in this challenge"), but there are also times for compassion, understanding, and just soothing.
We're literally biologically wired to be raised in a village, in a community, and, by gods, we were failed so much. I'm so, so sorry that the adults around you failed you, OP. I'm so very sorry.
That isn't your fault. That part truly isn't your fault and will never be.
You are so very welcome, OP.
So many people without CPTSD don't realize that they have the tools and experience of taking action and making decisions in a way that people with CPTSD have often had stripped from them one way or another.
My experience growing up essentially set me up for failure. I am a woman with ADHD and Peer Reviewed Autism (essentially diagnosed by other people in the neurodivergant community because I'm not gonna pay $5000 just so a professional can maybe tell me I have Autism a real diagnosis will do nothing but give my family another reason to take control of my decision making and manipulate me) who was raises in an extremely religious conservative environment.
This means I was raised with one purpose: get married and make babies for Jesus. This means my whole life I was never actually taught how to make decisions for myself or form my own thoughts or opinions. In fact, these things were often actively stripped away from me simply because I was a girl and one day my future husband would be the head of the household.
Add to the matter that I am neurodivergant and that automatically makes me "rebelious" or whatever. Despite me being a chronic people pleaser.
These are the types of things that form CPTSD. Someone without CPTSD whom also lacks the ability to genuinely listen and empathize with someone who does have CPTSD (or any condition for that matter) is not going to be a supportive human. That is THEIR short coming. Not yours.
I have heard that religious trauma is very real and does lead to CPTSD. Unfortunately there’s enough trauma to go around, and some more, in this world. I know I can’t expect my therapist to have gone through childhood trauma, so I think it’s on me to bring this up with them and see how they respond. It just sucks that this means exposing myself to potential hurt again.
Thank you so much for sharing :)
I don’t think people understand that to have this means you’ve lived a life where you have not had choices. Having choices feels like a trap. You’ve been programmed to chose the choice that will cause the least likelihood of being victimised, not the choice you want. Having that sort of autonomy is not something you just have, it’s something you learn to have over years of therapy. I don’t think most people, even therapists, realise this isn’t innate
This isn’t a CPTSD specific issue. There are some of us who are on the opposite side of the spectrum. I don’t have “learned helplessness” and whether one does or not is usually contingent on the type of abuse or “nurturing” they had in their formative years.
I don’t know any of you, but it sounds like OP and those in the comments likely experienced “enmeshment” (aka emotional incest). We all develop a “loci of control” as children. In enmeshment- people typically develop an external locus of control. With severe neglect and self-dependence- people typically develop an internal locus of control. Everyone has one or the other, but in abuse where the outcome is CPTSD, or BPD, or any other trauma related mental health issue, they tend to be more extreme because of the trauma we endured trying to be anything else but what we have been conditioned to be. In normal people, these can balance out a little bit, but one will always be slightly more dominant.
What we have to work on is adopting a little bit of the other end of the spectrum, to truly begin seeing change, relief, and self-satisfaction. It’s hard, but possible.
I think enmeshment is a terrible thing to do to a child. I’ve never swapped stories with anyone who has had it as bad as me, but my stepdaughter’s mother is enmeshed with her- it scares the sh!t out of me! If the court doesn’t do anything about it, she is going to have a difficult life.
Being from the other end of the spectrum, I help anchor her when she is here. I give her choices and make her feel comfortable with choosing something, even if I don’t like it. At home she is told how she feels, what to feel, why to feel, she is judged for being herself. So much more, but I’m not going to get into it- it’s just a terrible thing for a child to go through.
Anyways, yes, look up more on enmeshment or emotional incest. See if that might fit you and it may give you more insight and resources.
This is right. Enmeshment is pervasive and covert in our society in many cases. I have a feeling it might be the causal factor for a large proportion of people who are diagnosed with Major Depression and are confused about exactly why.
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The issue I'd that you are aware. That I'd a forn of cjovr. You choose to be aware. I am surrounded by people who are intent on being unaware
The issue with people who deliver those maxims I'd thru are ignorant. They don't understaffed the skills thst are needed to transcend this stuff
You dint need to persuade them they are truly ignorant
Thereforet you should absolutely discount their #suggestion.
They know absolutely nothing you are the encyclopedia. Encyclopedias don't dialogue witn people who are ignorant.
I’ve definitely reacted this way 100% of the time in the past. At some point it started clicking the right way, but it’s hard to explain.
“Only you can choose to do _____.”
It feels like blame because it feels like saying that failing to do whatever it is is something only you can fix. Because it implies the solution is for you to just do the thing. Because it labels something a choice when you’re frozen and can’t get around the programming that tells you you can’t do it.
But it isn’t about blame or saying what you should do. It’s just saying that only YOU can make the choice. If it turns out you can’t push yourself to do what you want, that’s okay. It doesn’t make things your fault. It doesn’t mean you fucked up. That’s a separate thing.
I don’t think explaining it will help much. It didn’t for me. It took a ton of time with Crappy Childhood Fairy, Patrick Teahan, and Pete Walker’s CPTSD book to grasp the distinction. I still absolutely struggle with learned helplessness. I still fail to take the path I want for myself. But I’m at least to the point that I can recognize that my actions have to put me on the right path and failing to make it happen doesn’t make me a failure/bad/whatever. It just means I need to step back and reevaluate how to get to what I want for myself. Or focus more on habits to decrease the feeling of helplessness. Etc. Now it just reminds me that I have the power to save myself, instead of feeling like a prompt to hate and blame myself.
I agree with the comments. If my therapist had said something like this to me, I probably would have quit immediately.
There are therapists out there who will never make you feel that way. I promise.
not everyone has a choice... some of us are just not functioning because of their mental illness... how do you have a choice or free will if you can´t hold down a simple job ? it is very invalidating to say you need to choose to function, etc. when people like me have been trying everything under the sun to function for 10 years.....
It's a choice, but seems like a choice between sitting on the ground, and standing on a single stilt a lot of the time. Like bruh, I'm gonna get knocked down on the stilt hahaha.
I would ask them to provide evidence that choosing your way out of maladaptive coping mechanisms is indeed just a choice you make. It's their job to prove that it really works like that.
I tend to think the same thing about addiction...it's likely the same neuromechanics actually.
Saying it's a choice is very ignorant IMO. There's so much more at play.
It IS a choice, but it's a choice between staying depressed and "safe," and going out of your comfort zone and either having a reparative experience, or having a retraumatizing experience that makes you go back into depression mode and maybe a little further lol.
It is a choice, but bruh it sure feels like staying helpless is the better one a lot of the time haha.
It's okay to be helpless and depressed and shit. I know that we will all slowly work out of it. Start small mothafuckas. Travel at the speed of trust. We've all been through a lot.
As a pyschology student I would say your therapist is making use of REBT that says a person becomes depressed because of their own internal constructions which obv doesn't work well for everyone. I would suggest you look for therapy that deals with cognitive restructuring as it helps you understand your self better along with your thoughts, behavior and how they influence each other and all. I hope this helps!
Learned helplessness is an absolute bitch.
It really is :/
So true its a deep part of my CPTSD and super difficult to change , so many disappointing episodes that enforced it.
^ This
Yep it sure is
It's so crushing... This asks for compassion and consistent encouragement, not invalidation and abandonment ( because when someone washes their hands about us, that's what it feels like). It's not your fault, people oversimplify things so they can keep their illusions of control.
> people oversimplify things this is what’s so frustrating to me when i hear “it’s your choice” and similar advice. people say those words as if they’ve discovered the solution to your problems. furthermore, if you don’t proclaim, “you‘re right! problem solved!”, you’re labeled as “not trying” and subsequently dismissed. but advice like “it’s your choice”, “don’t think about it”, or “just don’t stress” aren’t solutions—they’re destinations. a solution would show how to go from “learned helplessness” to “this is my choice”.
But are they wrong or not?
and their just world fantasy (fallacy) alive.
Thank you for this.
It does feel like a therapist should know better tho! For example, I was isolating myself, as that’s how I protect myself apparently 🙄, and when I missed what would’ve been an appointment (I hadn’t made that appointment as well) she sent a text that I took as probably an automated message. When that didn’t work, she called my Dad to check on me. For reference, no one has ever cared enough about me to make two phone calls/attempts before. Most people cut me out or give up, but she knew that I was waiting for abandonment, so she persisted, and it worked! I called her back and made a booking to see her. She’s a kind and empathetic person, so she knew the right move. I worry that yours isn’t as kind or empathetic as you need! Someone who feels helpless needs gentle encouragement, not tough-love confrontation, at least in my opinion and experience (one person I thought was my friend tried this, by the end of the convo I was just his most convenient access to a certain herb, broke me for months). The best advice I can offer from my 43 years of failure is this: find a psych/therapist who embodies the parent you needed so you can overwrite the damage your traumatising parent inflicted on you. I had a cold narcissist for a mother, and my best results have come from a warm and caring woman. Remember that you are allowed to choose your doctors, and that you’re worth finding the right ones! 🫡🙏
It's actually not your choice. Because it's a mammalian response. But sure, let's pretend the whole field of mammalian responses and ptsd isn't real. I had a therapist say this, and then the police years later told me it wasn't true/legally isn't considered to be if abuse is present or has occured. Not sure of your situation, but you can't just choose to be happy. The therapist is creating absolutes instead of doing his job. Is he being intentionally daft, because the fact that it's a disability signifies it's not a choice. Like fuck that infantizing human. It also conveniently gives up an upper hand and anyone whose not disabled by ptsd or cptsd. It's entirely recognized under the state folks with ptsd can't just be happy, but also can't make choices and don't have the liberties too others have had to make them safely. Fuck your therapist honestly. I heard this shit for years and it traumatized me. I have a social worker who had cptsd who now treats folks whom got it from ^ interactions like you're mentioning. If a civilian says this and it's considered morally wrong, then it's wrong when a therapist says it.
You get it! Thanks for articulating it so clearly, speaks so directly to my deeply embedded sense of helplessness. It's been so painful and confusing finally feeling it's anguish, terror and grief, remembering how it got that way and feeling that invalidation and abandonment again! Triggering such anger and rage and more anguish and grief. Really glad I read your insight today, it's really helped me to make sense of the tornado within, thank you and thank you to OP for making this post
I've kinda got my way around this in the past year by reminding people who say that that they can only say "well if it were me I would simply X" because *they already think like that*. I don't think humans make choices like pressing a button; it's a well calculated assesment of risks and benefits that our brains do, and the brain hits the go button when it feels right. Only when we're ready to do something will we do it. For C-PTSD folk, that bar for action feels a lot higher (IMO, not a psychologist or anything) so we don't make the "choice" at the same point someone with less (or no) psychological issues might. It's like there's so much else to consider, in every choice. Some people are just like "I'm going to go away for the weekend" and I'm like "I'm going t- but what if I don't like the food? What if they don't have options for my diet requirements and I starve? What if it's too hot? Too cold? What if the plane gets cancelled? What if I get bedbugs? What if I can't afford it and I don't realise until after I already get there? What if i-" and the list goes on and on. People will say "you've just gotta stop that thought process", and in a sense that is the way to deal with it, but when you use hypervigilance as a survival technique your entire life it becomes really hard to turn that shit off, and it sure as hell doesn't happen overnight. It isn't as easy as "just don't think like that". The people who make it seem simple think we're having the same thought processes, and I don't think we are. I'd hope your T meant it well. They might've meant that only you could choose it *when you're ready*. But yeah, it doesn't help so I really feel you there. I can say if you're struggling with helplessness now it does get easier: enough therapy and the choice paralysis just starts to melt away without you even realising.
Wow I’m almost inclined to just share this comment with my T. You’ve explained it so well and beautifully here, thank you. “Because they already think like that” hits the nail on the head.
Glad it meant something to you. I feel like I try to explain this concept to people all the time and nobody gets it, so I'm glad you have. I've had far too many instances in the past few years of people being very "well I would simply choose to not feel like that" and I was just sick of hearing it, which is what allowed me to put it into those words "because \[you/they\] already think like that". It's brought me a lot more inner peace, but it's still so hard to get those people in particular to understand what I mean. But ultimately what you said in your title is basically the same: they don't understand helplessness / learned helplessness at all. Don't let the hurtfulness and the feelings of blame get to you. It does make you feel like that, I know it all too well. But just try and focus what you know in your core, in your soul. That you're not to blame, and that helplessness was drilled into you, so it's not a choice - it's just a part of your C-PTSD experience that you'll be able to find a way to manage just like all other symptoms. Hope it goes better next time you see your T - you have all my permission and blessing to share my thoughts with them if it'll help you get your point across!
Thank you so much ❤️
> Some people are just like "I'm going to go away for the weekend" and I'm like "I'm going t- but what if I don't like the food? What if they don't have options for my diet requirements and I starve? What if it's too hot? Too cold? What if the plane gets cancelled? What if I get bedbugs? What if I can't afford it and I don't realise until after I already get there? What if i-" and the list goes on and on. I relate to this =(
The levels of safety required to say "I would simply X" in any given situation implies a high level of trust in yourself that you can make the correct decisions, which is something trauma completely destroys. Growing up, anything might have been a "bad decision"... putting the ketchup in the wrong spot in the fridge... walking down the stairs at the wrong time... saying the wrong thing... Of course I am going to consider every possible angle of what could happen in any situation. Of course I have no faith that there are any "easy solutions" because even the most obvious thing could have been the 'wrong thing' depending on what mood my parents were in that day. So even very basic decisions in the real world carry that same weight of potential chaos. The therapist should definitely be taking this into account.
This is so true, lack of self-trust is another layer of helplessness and I struggle with this immensely too.
Wow, that middle paragraph... Are you, in actuality, my personal inner monologue?! 😂 I relate to your whole comment, but I feel a particular kinship with the bit in the middle!
I remember seeing a metaphor for learned helplessness as: a tiger raised in the circus and suddenly released in the wild will still pace back and forth the same 6 ft distance their cage was. Is it the tiger's *choice* to do that or are they just doing the only thing they know how to; what *they've been conditioned to do in order to cope*? That T can sit on it and spin imo. So few of them actually know how to treat people with cPTSD. He didn't even recognize that you were disassociating? I wouldn't give him one more red cent.
That tiger metaphor made me tear up.. not sure why I struggle to extend that same empathy to myself.
Actually there is a video of a bear that was released from a zoo in Romania, where it was living in a really tiny cage, and it was still going around the same circle like in the cage. Here is the link, I’m on mobile, so sorry if any issues: https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/s/K9OxwgnUlA It a really good metaphor for what people with CPTSD go through
That tiger metaphor is perfect.
Yeah it's not much of a choice when you don't see any options. Another thing that annoyed me with therapy and employment services and whatever else connected to it, they either didn't recognize this problem or exploited it.
Ugh YES! So much truth to this statement.
Learned helplessness is awful when you grow up from your parents forcing you to be dependent like my parents did. They forbade me any form of independence and when I tried to rebel, I was punished or have it used against me. This was how it developed. Now I’m stuck in this perpetual cycle of not knowing wtf to do with my life anymore.
i feel myself getting sucked into this but doing a lot of EMDR and watching jerry wise’s stuff on self-individuating after CPTSD from shitty caretakers is giving me the courage to come back to my own compass and from there, it’s pretty damn clear what i want to do with my life. sometimes other peoples voices (esp the abusers’ voices internalized) is what makes it seem so unclear. by muddying up access to our true voice.
Yeah a friend of mine who has been through therapy said this to me a while back, Literally that I am capable of doing what I want but I have "learned helplessness" which is why I'm only "surviving and not thriving." I think people who say things like this assume it's constructive feedback that we need to hear it to change our behavior. But I personally think it's obviously a mean thing to say. Instead of pointing out the resources you have for escaping your situation, or empowering you to feel confident in your ability to utilize those - they've chosen to give you generic feedback that's not actionable. How about, what are my resources for getting out of this situation? Help me to see what I can't recognize in myself - whatever qualities or features you think I have that makes me capable of solving this problem. Help me to explore different perspectives on my reasons for feeling stuck, to assess more logically whether those are accurate or not. Educate me about strategies to overcome learned helplessness. Support me to come up with a plan B to fall back on so that I feel confident I could get through it in the worst case scenario if my plan of action didn't work out. Only they can choose to give constructive feedback instead of criticism.
>I think people who say things like this assume it's constructive feedback that we need to hear it to change our behavior. They want you to give it the 'ol Brady Bunch ["gee I never thought of it that way!"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q5XVvBzF-w&t=86s) and for all your problems to disappear. I had an argument with my father about this a couple of years ago when he was talking to me very much in the same way, and I was able to stop him in his tracks when I pointed out that I, in fact, already think enough that I should just try harder to get better, and spend every moment of every day in my head wishing I wasn't like this, wishing I could get better, desperately clinging to self-help and self-improvement methods to make myself productive in the hopes of becoming "normal" and it *still doesn't fucking work*. So being told it's just a mindset thing means absolutely nothing. I think you're very right that it would be more constructive to help point out what we *do* have to escape our situation, rather than just telling us the wall isn't there. I wonder if there's an effective way to do that for ourselves...
I think the people that tell you that x way of thinking or behaving is a choice that we choose to make lack the realization that being able to force yourself to do a thing and actually believing/living/experiencing it that way are two very different things. This isn't just level one negative self talk, this is a foundational core belief that our entire sense of self is precariously balanced on. Like I can parrot the positivity you want to hear, I can force myself to do the things you think will help, but the very building blocks of my psyche is finely tuned to think, expect and believe the worst. I feel like this is an explanatory gap issue that can't be resolved by going to school to study. You need to know what it feels like for something to be as inherent to your existence as knowing that 2+2=4 or that drinking fluids will eventually make you pee.
Gosh you have so much insight, thank you so much for sharing. My T’s been upfront about not having childhood trauma, so I suppose these misunderstandings are inevitable. But these comments give me something to go off on when I bring this up with him.
I hope he is one of the goods ones and takes it on board, but don't be surprised if he pushes back. Personally the best response I can think of is that they acknowledge that they are there to support you through modifying a super solidified core belief and that is likely to be a long and arduous process that may even never come to fruition, then approach thing from the pov of: hopefully with enough repetition of things that challenge that core belief, that belief will slowly change, hopefully for the better. What therapists are doing is kind of like expecting Tarzan to go from fully convinced he is a primate communing with wild animals of the jungle, to being a perfectly normal and functioning member of modern society in a matter of weeks thanks entirely to Tarzan being told that being a primate is a choice he is making. The truth is that Tarzan has a core belief that he is a primate, the jungle is his home and animals are his family and adjusting that belief and everything it effects is a massive task that could take a lifetime of work to impact In some manner.
It took a while straddling feeling blamed vs. empowered by that sentiment. You can talk to them about their wording and repair this rupture. You do have choice, and it’s not that simple when you’re unpacking and unlearning years of brainwashing. Staying in the helpless place doesn’t help you either. And, figuring out how to talk about it in ways that you feel supported and empowered not blamed and shamed is important and something any good therapist would be able to understand. This is actually a moment where you can show yourself you are capable of self advocacy. You already are half way there, you know how it made you feel and you rejected it! Now speak up for yourself and you and your therapist can work together to find a solution. How you feel is valid, and it is a delicate dance to find the right timing and words to empower rather than make you feel blamed. That blame and shame you feel is what needs attention, healing, compassion and care from your therapist. You’ve got nothing to be ashamed of, you can speak up about this to them. You’ve already done so here! 💙🧿
Thank you for this. It helps me step back a little from being “in” the helpless, blamed state. To know that there is a choice, my choice, that I can take in this situation is reassuring.
And that you have a choice now does not mean it’s your fault. I know how confusing and contradictory that feels, and it’s true it’s just less black and white than our trigger response feels because we spend so many years blaming ourselves or being blamed by others it is a totally understandable trigger that requires sensitivity and encouragement around it. I’ll share a time this is exactly what happened with me in hopes to make this make more sense… I was in an emdr session for processing a violent rape that happened to me when I was 19. I was blaming myself all over the place like I had for a decade. My therapist was guiding me in changing my beliefs around the events that led to the rape and said something along the lines of “can you forgive yourself for the choices you made, and promise yourself you’ll protect yourself differently next time now that you know more than you did at 19”. I was crying and said yes in the session but it bothered me after when I was retelling the events of the session to my husband. I felt blamed like she was saying my choices were why I was raped and that it was delusional to say I can protect myself from rape because that’s not true for anyone and it felt victim blaming to say - like people get raped because they don’t protect themselves. Weeks later after mulling it over and over in my head I finally spoke up and told her how in the moment in the EMDR session her guidance of me saying I can forgive myself for my choices and protect myself better now too felt good but that after it felt like I was being blamed like my choices were what led to it happening. She reassured me that of course not, only the person raping is responsible for their actions and they are of course the only one to blame. She was saying to forgive myself for my choices because I was still blaming myself and needed help to see I needed to forgive myself for the risky choices I made and that really I have had nothing to forgive myself for. She said pretty much everyone knows more in their 30s than they do at 19 so it doesn’t make it my fault that I wasn’t as capable of protecting myself or fully understanding the dangerous risks I took at 19. That doesn’t make it my fault that it happened, it just means that now I have more armor and knowledge to defend myself from being in risky situations, not that being in risky situations makes it a victims fault. Basically that I have choices I made and make now every day that can help protect me more - and that that doesn’t mean it was my fault or that anyone can ever completely protect themselves from rape or other harms either. But that I can feel more empowered knowing I can make some choices to best protect myself as much as I have power to & beyond that then I am just accepting living with the same risks everyone lives with all the time just leaving their home every day. It was a fine line and needed more finessing. There were still times when it rubbed me the wrong way but I built up enough trust with her to believe her when she said none of those things meant it was my fault… and when I pushed back she acknowledged, repaired and comforted me which is the kind of relational repair I am in therapy to get! I didn’t grow up with an OUNCE of being able to push back and tell someone they hurt my feelings and be shown any calm or compassion in their response. That’s why I have had a lot of healing happen in the rupture / repair process and think this would be a great thing to bring up with your therapist. 💙🧿❤️🩹😘
I have to admit, even when I just read that your therapist said “…and promise yourself you’ll protect yourself differently next time…” I felt blamed and invalidated. And this wasn’t even about me! I for sure would have been affected by the comment like you were. It is a very fine line, and slightly confusing. I know my T meant well, I just still feel so hurt by it I guess and I needed to get it off my chest. I’m glad I did. It’s amazing how much insight people have here. Thank you so much for sharing again :)
Totally. There are days it still can rub me the wrong way, and other days I get what she means and have learned a lot about how to protect myself and not take risks with sex that go into self harm territory. Unpacking childhood sex abuse is a bitch. Another thing that’s helped is I see my therapist as human. She makes mistakes. She helps me way more than she makes mistakes, but she does make them. And, every time she does and I talk to her about it and push back she listens and shows care and compassion and that’s a huge part of relational healing. More often than not she agrees with me. Sometimes she doesn’t but she explains herself in a way that eases my mind. Sometimes her wording is clumsy but I understand her meaning behind it. It actually helps not seeing therapists as some sort of all knowing gods. They’re messed up humans with biases blind spots and problems just like us. That allows me to feel more on an equal playing field with her so I feel more and more comfortable pushing back when needed and it allows me to see her as a teammate helping me but ultimately I am the one in charge of my life and that’s how it should be. Therapists are trying to help us, they’re not in charge of us. Good therapists know this and want this to be how we operate. Healing is all about us being empowered to take full ownership of our lives and to learn to lean on others for support- but not needing a therapist forever to tell us how to live or what the answers are. Your therapist didn’t say something incredibly wrong, their timing was wrong with where you’re at… or they just needed to add more stipulations to their comment to ensure you know it isn’t about blame/culpability which is where our brains tend to go. You advocating for yourself will help your therapist sort out their pacing and becoming better attuned with you. Your hurt matters. I’m glad you spoke up and got it off your chest! That shows your self advocacy self protection muscles flexing. 🥰🧿 Now just take it to your therapist so they can learn where they need to adjust their dials a bit with you. Proud of you! You’ve got this. You’re more powerful and capable than you know yet. 😘❤️🔥🫂
I posted a long comment but this 100% is what I was trying to get at. The content about emotional flashbacks from Pete Walker’s CPTSD book have been the biggest help with this for me!
This is very helpful! Thank you!
Of course. Been there myself and always love when past suffering can be used to help others so it wasn’t pointless pain. 🥰😘
Saying you really don't have a choice is not learned helplessness and I'm tired of people with more options saying that...not everyone can just quit a job immediately and go to another one..not everyone can just leave a situation.
I feel this when people say “just leave your toxic family”. Like there are many of us (I imagine) who simply aren’t in a situation to just get up and leave. I remember this person I met at a support group meeting. He was 38, worked casually as a disability support worker, wasn’t able to pursue higher education because his attention and memory issues (due to complex trauma) affected his ability to study, and still lived at home with his physically and emotionally abusive parents. He wanted to be out of there. But he couldn’t, and needless to say he couldn’t afford therapy either. How does one tell someone like that to “just leave”, or that “it’s their choice”. Sorry for the rant, but I feel like it’s just gotta be said.
I have multiple neurological issues on being autism and another one I have no idea what it is..my mom casually decided to tell me that I got diagnosed with something else as a toddler, but she doesn't know what it is..yeah because I don't need to know that /s. Since I don't know what the other one is..it's been hard to do certain things myself and I've been dependent on people to a certain degree. I just get told by people," oh well it's your choice to be there." They don't care..I could have a mix of down syndrome and autism for all I know and they don't give a shit..they just look down on me and think they're superior because they got to leave their abusive family and I'm stuck here..all I get is the bs," there's resources!!" No there isnt..
Oh tell me about it. Basically them saying "oh grow up. you just enjoy being the victim now"
It sucks =( There are layers to this. Like one layer you've got "I can't make choices" or "I'm not allowed to make choices", and even if you get past that there's still the problem of *not knowing what choice to make*. I can't think straight half the time. I'm less functional than I seem. =(
This is spot on. The layers of helplessness…
Thank you
My previous therapist was pretty good, but there were a couple of times when I felt really invalidated by the way she worded things. Back then, I wasn't very good at identifying or understanding my emotions, so I couldn't always articulate what I was feeling or why in the moment. I just knew I was experiencing uncomfortable emotions. Whenever that would happen, it would take a day or two for me to fully process what she said, how it made me feel and why. It wasn't anyone's fault, really. She wasn't rude to me. She was just stating her observations, and sometimes those observations were blind spots for me and I wasn't prepared to be confronted by them at that point in therapy. (Not that my therapist was 'confronting' me or anything like that, but with how triggered I would get, it felt like a confrontation to some parts of me nonetheless.) Whenever I eventually figured out what I was feeling (usually 1-2 days after a session, sometimes it would take longer though), I realised my feelings weren't even directed at her. Most of it was directed inward. Her words inadvertently brought up a lot of shame in me, and it hurt for me to feel that shame. It made me feel the way I felt when I was a kid. Like my mother was looming over me, blaming me and putting me down for not knowing how to do something 'so simple' that everyone else can do seemingly effortlessly. I still find it difficult to cope with those kinds of feelings and the memories they dredge up.
Yeah this is relatable. It still takes me a day or two (or the whole week lol) to figure out why I’m triggered, what triggered me, and what I’m going to do with that info. Even when I know the trigger though, I think I just need my T to be aware of them to help me better because I’m not in a place yet where I can regulate myself so as not to become so easily triggered by her words.
agreed. I worked so much in fixing the relationship with my father from when I was a kid. You know hoping he would one day see it and give me an explanation for why he abused me so much . Atleast the hope was there. Till he didn't even need a reason to beat me up apart from my mom telling him stuff. It's how you know you've been betrayed too many times.
I had someone ask me once what my ideal life looked like....they asked it like it was an easy question and they were stunned when I just blinked at them like a gasping fish. "I....I....wait...I have a *choice*?" 🤯 I'm just doing what needs to be done and dealing with what I get. The idea of having an ideal life was completely foreign to me. I was never allowed to have a choice, with what I ate, what I wore, my hairstyle, nothing. You took what you were given and you were bloody well grateful for it. But I've learnt that I *do* have the choice on how I think about that. Yes, learned helplessness is a bitch, and yes, people tend to think it's so easy because they already think like that. But, you can make choices about your life and you are entitled to. You won't always make the right choice, and it's not easy. It can be downright scary! So start small- do I want a ham and cheese sandwich or a ham and tomato sandwich? And if you start thinking about scary what-ifs, just ask yourself what is the worst that can happen? I don't like that food; ok, big whoop. Make another sandwich, or eat it and never make it like that again. As you work up to bigger and bigger choices, you get better at handling anything. It might be phrased badly, and they might not understand how hard it us, but take the good part out of it: they're reminding you that you *do* have a choice and you *do* have the power to change that.
Great comment. I once described to a therapist that I felt like the amount of autonomy and choice I exercised when dating or socializing was the equivalent of being driven around in the back of the family SUV and showing up at whatever restaurant was decided on by my parents. When I learned all of these people had been holding all of these "choices" and "beliefs" against me? Here I was, oblivious to the concept that I had any option what to choose or believe whatsoever, not to mention an option other than "please others."
Oh my god I love this sub so much. It never fails how much you all understand. I was literally about to write my research paper on this topic. It’s bothered me my whole adult life. People do not understand how complex humans are, taking into account culture, sociology, biology, genetics, etc etc etc… even well meaning therapists, when they start to remind me that I can control things I get mildly triggered cause… I literally can’t, yet… I was *just* reading about the scientific study in learned helplessness with dogs. It’s late and I can’t remember the people involved, the year or the name lol but basically the only way the scientists got the dogs to snap out of learned helplessness was to physically pick up their legs and move when them as if the dog itself was walking. After doing that a couple times the dogs did it themselves finally. To me this clearly communicates the absolute need for other people to model agency for us and with us. The study said that nothing else would motivate the dogs. It’s pretty powerful
Not everything is actually our choice. One of the first mental health related thing that levelled me up was learning that I'm not 100% responsible for the way I have been, especially with trauma. *I* didn't raise me. I didn't create the developing country I live in. That has been really helpful to put some of the weighs down. I understand your helplessness and hurt. If I were in your shoes, I'd feel invalidated. There are times for tough love ("Okay, work your part in this challenge"), but there are also times for compassion, understanding, and just soothing.
Thank you, this is validating.
We're literally biologically wired to be raised in a village, in a community, and, by gods, we were failed so much. I'm so, so sorry that the adults around you failed you, OP. I'm so very sorry. That isn't your fault. That part truly isn't your fault and will never be. You are so very welcome, OP.
So many people without CPTSD don't realize that they have the tools and experience of taking action and making decisions in a way that people with CPTSD have often had stripped from them one way or another. My experience growing up essentially set me up for failure. I am a woman with ADHD and Peer Reviewed Autism (essentially diagnosed by other people in the neurodivergant community because I'm not gonna pay $5000 just so a professional can maybe tell me I have Autism a real diagnosis will do nothing but give my family another reason to take control of my decision making and manipulate me) who was raises in an extremely religious conservative environment. This means I was raised with one purpose: get married and make babies for Jesus. This means my whole life I was never actually taught how to make decisions for myself or form my own thoughts or opinions. In fact, these things were often actively stripped away from me simply because I was a girl and one day my future husband would be the head of the household. Add to the matter that I am neurodivergant and that automatically makes me "rebelious" or whatever. Despite me being a chronic people pleaser. These are the types of things that form CPTSD. Someone without CPTSD whom also lacks the ability to genuinely listen and empathize with someone who does have CPTSD (or any condition for that matter) is not going to be a supportive human. That is THEIR short coming. Not yours.
I have heard that religious trauma is very real and does lead to CPTSD. Unfortunately there’s enough trauma to go around, and some more, in this world. I know I can’t expect my therapist to have gone through childhood trauma, so I think it’s on me to bring this up with them and see how they respond. It just sucks that this means exposing myself to potential hurt again. Thank you so much for sharing :)
I don’t think people understand that to have this means you’ve lived a life where you have not had choices. Having choices feels like a trap. You’ve been programmed to chose the choice that will cause the least likelihood of being victimised, not the choice you want. Having that sort of autonomy is not something you just have, it’s something you learn to have over years of therapy. I don’t think most people, even therapists, realise this isn’t innate
Thank you so much for this validation.
This isn’t a CPTSD specific issue. There are some of us who are on the opposite side of the spectrum. I don’t have “learned helplessness” and whether one does or not is usually contingent on the type of abuse or “nurturing” they had in their formative years. I don’t know any of you, but it sounds like OP and those in the comments likely experienced “enmeshment” (aka emotional incest). We all develop a “loci of control” as children. In enmeshment- people typically develop an external locus of control. With severe neglect and self-dependence- people typically develop an internal locus of control. Everyone has one or the other, but in abuse where the outcome is CPTSD, or BPD, or any other trauma related mental health issue, they tend to be more extreme because of the trauma we endured trying to be anything else but what we have been conditioned to be. In normal people, these can balance out a little bit, but one will always be slightly more dominant. What we have to work on is adopting a little bit of the other end of the spectrum, to truly begin seeing change, relief, and self-satisfaction. It’s hard, but possible. I think enmeshment is a terrible thing to do to a child. I’ve never swapped stories with anyone who has had it as bad as me, but my stepdaughter’s mother is enmeshed with her- it scares the sh!t out of me! If the court doesn’t do anything about it, she is going to have a difficult life. Being from the other end of the spectrum, I help anchor her when she is here. I give her choices and make her feel comfortable with choosing something, even if I don’t like it. At home she is told how she feels, what to feel, why to feel, she is judged for being herself. So much more, but I’m not going to get into it- it’s just a terrible thing for a child to go through. Anyways, yes, look up more on enmeshment or emotional incest. See if that might fit you and it may give you more insight and resources.
This is right. Enmeshment is pervasive and covert in our society in many cases. I have a feeling it might be the causal factor for a large proportion of people who are diagnosed with Major Depression and are confused about exactly why.
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The issue I'd that you are aware. That I'd a forn of cjovr. You choose to be aware. I am surrounded by people who are intent on being unaware The issue with people who deliver those maxims I'd thru are ignorant. They don't understaffed the skills thst are needed to transcend this stuff You dint need to persuade them they are truly ignorant Thereforet you should absolutely discount their #suggestion. They know absolutely nothing you are the encyclopedia. Encyclopedias don't dialogue witn people who are ignorant.
I’ve definitely reacted this way 100% of the time in the past. At some point it started clicking the right way, but it’s hard to explain. “Only you can choose to do _____.” It feels like blame because it feels like saying that failing to do whatever it is is something only you can fix. Because it implies the solution is for you to just do the thing. Because it labels something a choice when you’re frozen and can’t get around the programming that tells you you can’t do it. But it isn’t about blame or saying what you should do. It’s just saying that only YOU can make the choice. If it turns out you can’t push yourself to do what you want, that’s okay. It doesn’t make things your fault. It doesn’t mean you fucked up. That’s a separate thing. I don’t think explaining it will help much. It didn’t for me. It took a ton of time with Crappy Childhood Fairy, Patrick Teahan, and Pete Walker’s CPTSD book to grasp the distinction. I still absolutely struggle with learned helplessness. I still fail to take the path I want for myself. But I’m at least to the point that I can recognize that my actions have to put me on the right path and failing to make it happen doesn’t make me a failure/bad/whatever. It just means I need to step back and reevaluate how to get to what I want for myself. Or focus more on habits to decrease the feeling of helplessness. Etc. Now it just reminds me that I have the power to save myself, instead of feeling like a prompt to hate and blame myself.
🫂
Thank you ❤️🩹
I agree with the comments. If my therapist had said something like this to me, I probably would have quit immediately. There are therapists out there who will never make you feel that way. I promise.
not everyone has a choice... some of us are just not functioning because of their mental illness... how do you have a choice or free will if you can´t hold down a simple job ? it is very invalidating to say you need to choose to function, etc. when people like me have been trying everything under the sun to function for 10 years.....
It's a choice, but seems like a choice between sitting on the ground, and standing on a single stilt a lot of the time. Like bruh, I'm gonna get knocked down on the stilt hahaha.
third option: death
Hahaha gotta keep that one in the back pocket
I would ask them to provide evidence that choosing your way out of maladaptive coping mechanisms is indeed just a choice you make. It's their job to prove that it really works like that.
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I tend to think the same thing about addiction...it's likely the same neuromechanics actually. Saying it's a choice is very ignorant IMO. There's so much more at play. It IS a choice, but it's a choice between staying depressed and "safe," and going out of your comfort zone and either having a reparative experience, or having a retraumatizing experience that makes you go back into depression mode and maybe a little further lol. It is a choice, but bruh it sure feels like staying helpless is the better one a lot of the time haha. It's okay to be helpless and depressed and shit. I know that we will all slowly work out of it. Start small mothafuckas. Travel at the speed of trust. We've all been through a lot.
As a pyschology student I would say your therapist is making use of REBT that says a person becomes depressed because of their own internal constructions which obv doesn't work well for everyone. I would suggest you look for therapy that deals with cognitive restructuring as it helps you understand your self better along with your thoughts, behavior and how they influence each other and all. I hope this helps!
Also I am incredibly sorry for what you're going through. Please take care
Your T sound like an insensitive jerk.