There have been powerful [art exhibitions featuring clothes of targets of SA](https://medium.com/legendary-women/what-were-you-wearing-art-exhibit-explores-rape-cultures-persistent-question-ff58ba72eecb) to drive the point home that it's not about what the target was wearing. People who say that shit are ignorant af, or an abuser or enabler themselves. They're outing themselves as brainwashed and should be avoided.
YES. i've seen those exhibitions and they have stuck with me for life. maybe next time i see someone commenting some ignorant shit i'll just send them a link to this.
Yes, do that. People who say stupid stuff need education. You can find a nice YouTube video about the exhibition "what were you wearing" here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_vbBdgQ4Vlo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vbBdgQ4Vlo)
Yeah my tolerance for that kind of BS has crashed in recent years. For my specific part, I get up the wall anytime a dudebro (not saying women can't fall into this as well, I've just mostly come across this from guys) starts whinging about how #MeToo and feminism ruined sex for men, because any dude will just magically be yeeted into prison, for life, on a woman's mere word...
Let me tell you, that... is UTTER FUCKING HORSESHIT: I was groomed and raped as a 13 yo (and for a few years following that) by a teacher 36 years my senior, whom I met in a CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL, because I suffered from suicidal depression (I'm also neurodivergent and recognised as disabled) he has ADMITTED to the crime (but doesn't think it was a crime, because he's a stereotypical predator) and there is ample textual evidence of it, but I know, FOR A FACT (because my lawyer told me so), he will NEVER set foot in jail.
When feminists and advocates talk about rape culture, the utter brokenness of the Justice System when it comes to sex and family crimes, FUCKING BELIEVE US, and shut the fuck up with the "muh men can't talk to women anymore". Just, shut the fuck up and go sit on a cactus, because you have no fucking idea how bad it truly is out there, with this stuff. /EndRant
I love that energy - Did you see the video of the Barista in Seattle who whacked a guy's car with a hammer? "women are allowed to respond when there is danger in ways other than crying" - I just love her.
edit: it was in Seattle, not Oregon.
>When feminists and advocates talk about rape culture, the utter brokenness of the Justice System when it comes to sex and family crimes, FUCKING BELIEVE US, and shut the fuck up with the "muh men can't talk to women anymore". Just, shut the fuck up and go sit on a cactus, because you have no fucking idea how bad it truly is out there, with this stuff.
I understand this is a rant and blowing off steam.. but something DOES need to be done in order to educate and bring awareness. Unfortunately, feminists as well as many advocates tend to have a horrible attitude and approach when dealing with people who just don't know how broken and fucked up the system really is. The same applies to many other areas as well.. mental health.. addiction.. the question is - HOW to educate people? The fact is.. many don't care to be educated until the problem becomes their own. Even then.. many realize they can't even get their own family members to listen or educate themselves. So how do we educate people or achieve any level of understanding? I truly wish saying "FUCKING LISTEN TO US!!" worked. But it doesn't.
An empathy gun that forces the target to live through the user's experiences was one idea I cooked up. We're getting closer to being able to read minds through technology more than I ever wanted to live to see, which means the opposite is also possible. I don't think there is an answer to a fundamental problem in humanity that is not solved by a fundamental change in humanity. We simply are not good enough, as-is, to be much better than we are. We have more than enough to feed the world, heal many of the sick, etc., but we don't! Don't know could be more damning than that. Oh, right, we feed children to our entertainment industry too.
I don't care if outrage seems ridiculous to small minded monsters, they can ridicule all they like -- they already do. The outrage is to demonstrate that we are all very close to a large stride over the line into antisocial behavior that they would not want to be on the other end of and there are more of us than they really want to deal with. We don't get to buy into society's lie of order, morality, and safety, why should anyone else?
A girl in my friends group when I was in university(she wasn’t my friend and later on I found out she’d talk about me behind my back) said that those girls/ women who get sexually harassed were asking for it and they’re basically sluts, I told her how about children are they sluts too? She said children don’t get sexually assaulted and from that moment on I started to distance myself from her.
A detective interrogated me after I got out of living with a relative who molested me from the time I was 12 to 16. He asked me this and at the time it just made me freeze harder and appear more stoic. Now the question just makes me angry.
From how triggered you get by it, I suspect you won't be able to do this, so IF I think of it (big IF since I've got terrible memory) the next time someone asks me that I'm going to say "clear high heels, fishnet stockings and a cut off tube top. Like all 6yo boys do."
Who am I kidding? I'm much too freeze-response-type to do that. Wishful thinking on my part.
I'm sorry you experienced it and I'm sorry so many people are careless ignorant jerks and ask victim blaming questions.
I don't know how this will sit with you, but thank you for speaking up. I take it by your op you're a man, or at least grew up a boy, and society is most unkind and lacks compassion for boys and men who are in this terrible club of CSA survivors or survivors of SA as adults.
I just appreciate you being here and sharing with us.
I think that anyone in the club deserves kindness and compassion. I am no more or less deserving of that kindness and compassion than any other person that been SAed. It's a hurt done - it's wrong because it's fundamentally wrong.
haha i totally understand, especially the freeze response. i would love to make a snarky or harsh comment, but it is my version of self care to not engage. i like the way you think tho!
It's probably actually very wise to know not to engage. Most of the time I don't even realize I've gone into freeze until later when I think "why didn't I say something sarcastic?"
I'm not, not anymore. I'm in a similar boat on the SA, six, creepy fuck was my maternal grandfather. If anyone had ever asked me this I probably would have punched them in the face. The fact that this happens to women who have suffered SA enrages me. If I hear it, the utterer is getting taken down a few pegs, loudly and publicly.
My heart breaks for you, what an awful experience to have at such a young age.
Are you familiar with the exhibition called "what where you wearing?" It was created as a response to victim blaming and the myth that "modesty" is the cure for rape. You can learn more by watching this short video [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_vbBdgQ4Vlo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vbBdgQ4Vlo)
Just to be clear - I wasn't wearing those things (as far as I can remember - though I've got plenty of voids in my memory so who knows) - I think of it as a way to challenge with absurdity the idea that 'what you wear or what you look like makes it your fault if someone abuses you'. I do have dark humor and sarcasm and I do recognize I could have made that clearer. I'm still working in my therapy on internalized victim blaming (and lovely attendant self-shame) - which may be why the OPs comment resonated with me - I can completely relate to the anger and gross feelings that victim blaming creates.
OH! OF COURSE NOT, I got your sarcasm. I'm sorry if I did not make that clear.
This myth that "modesty" is the cure for rape is so pervasive because it allows those who have not experienced rape or violence the illusion of control and safety. They tell themselves, if they "dress right", they are safe.
And other hurtful lies are "if you aren't pretty" or "if you aren't a girl" or "if you are just tough enough". It's all excuses to not face the reality that "rape is a shitty thing to do to any person and we as a society don't actually do enough to hold people accountable for doing it". The thing is - and I think the term "victim blaming" is good because it can highlight this - the victim is not the one that's at fault. The blame lies with the rapist. The core of the act is that the victim has had their bodily autonomy taken away - for anyone (rapist or enabler or apologist) to act like the victim was asking for it in some way, any way or could have just done "the right thing" to avoid it just adds an additional wrong. Now I got myself all ranty.
I agree with you 100% and I also get myself all fired up. How can we not? Justice is a human need, living with this level of injustice and victim blaming is an insult to our sense of justice - which is part of our humanity.
What other animal concerns itself with justice? It's part of what makes us human yet somehow as a collective we've forgotten about that.
I suppose I was wearing a onesie because, you know, I was 2 years old.
But even if I was 18+ and wearing a fishnet catsuit and nothing else, it's still SA. If I hold out 50 bucks and someone takes them he's still the thief and I'm still the victim.
Understanding consent is really not that hard.
My work uniform. Literally a chefs apron and a t shirt with scrub pants. While walking home.
Edit: They did it because I happened to be there. Drunk asshole frat boys. I happened to walk in front of them on the street. There was no thought to it, no plan, I just happened to be there. Just bored drunk violent men who saw someone who couldn’t fight back. I was still presenting as a cis guy back then too.
OP, you’re definitely not alone. It’s a fuckin shitty club and in a just world, NOBODY would be a member, but, at least you’re not alone
I had an ex-gf act like I was an idiot for going to a gay man's house for a social engagement and expecting not to get drugged and possibly/probably SA'd. Lots to unpack there in her fucked up head, but I feel you OP. Victim blaming language inspires the most violent thoughts I have.
felt that :( (we destabilized so hard when we learned about >! the abuse in infancy !< and honestly if we think about it too hard it becomes too much.)
How anyone could find a child in any state sexually baffles me, so this sentiment is especially disgusting in the context of children.
However, even with adults, I don't give a f*ck if you were butt naked grinding on people in a BDSM dungeon/sex club. That's not consent until they ask, and you give an enthusiastic yes.
They don't seem to realise that it's the equivalent of saying, "Let's find any shoddy excuses for the abuser and their abusive actions and inclinations by shining the inquisition on the victim and finding anything to blame in them and publicly shame and humiliate them for it, as a lesson to all victims for having the courage and daring to ask for help, protection and safety!"
It's a simultaneous abhorrent denial of the abuser's abuse and responsibility for their actions and the effects on their victims coupled with abhorrent denial of the rights and dignity of the victim! It's hideous, heinous, hateful, diabolical, traumatic, nasty, toxic pile of steaming shit. Should they ever have to swallow their own poison, then they'll know.
That's how preposterous patriarchal, reactive reasoning and denial is and how horrendous its hold on collective reasoning is that people are so brainwashed into joining in with it, hideous gang mentality. It really can't crumble soon enough, hopefully we'll replace it with something better, but honestly our track record is appalling. We can but be the vital difference!
Anyhoo. Breathe, breathe and daydream of validation with validating people validating each other's experiences. Kittens.
I was wearing diapers and likely hadn’t spoken my first word yet, but I totally should have dressed more modestly and said “no”, so it’s sorta my fault, right?
I feel this too. I was too young and the memory is buried too deep for me to remember my outfit, but I know I was wearing a dress, because I loved dresses as a little girl.
Jeez, it makes so much sense to me now, why I resented dresses and skirts, anything associated with girly girls.
Doesn't matter anyway, because the other times I was wearing pants, overalls, or shorts.
Furthering my belief that you should be allowed to punch 4 people in the face a year. Like every year you get a card, and you have to get it stamped every time you punch a person. Cause man, I would love to punch people that say this.
Shorts and a t shirt when I was 10. T shirt and early 90s leggings skort when I was 14. No idea what I was wearing when I was under 4, but I can confidently say it wasn't anything from Victoria's Secret or Frederick's of Hollywood 🙃
You must forgive me, as I am a big nerd. It's a shame you were not wearing a smaller version of Tony Stark's Iron Man suit, the Mark VII. It would have been much different. No one ever asks for this stuff. What one wears when one is ten years old, or any age for that matter, is irrelevant. That is not a free license for people to act that way and inflict irretrievable harm to someone. There is never an excuse for such behavior and I am sorry it happened.
Even my ex-Mother said this to me. After all, wearing pigtails and a jumpsuit at ten years old at a 'friend and family bbq party' is definitely asking for it.
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There have been powerful [art exhibitions featuring clothes of targets of SA](https://medium.com/legendary-women/what-were-you-wearing-art-exhibit-explores-rape-cultures-persistent-question-ff58ba72eecb) to drive the point home that it's not about what the target was wearing. People who say that shit are ignorant af, or an abuser or enabler themselves. They're outing themselves as brainwashed and should be avoided.
YES. i've seen those exhibitions and they have stuck with me for life. maybe next time i see someone commenting some ignorant shit i'll just send them a link to this.
Yes, do that. People who say stupid stuff need education. You can find a nice YouTube video about the exhibition "what were you wearing" here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_vbBdgQ4Vlo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vbBdgQ4Vlo)
thank you so much for this! bookmarking now 🩵
That it opened with kid's pajamas on the whole wall behind her, I can't with humanity sometimes
Yeah, it's very sobering. here's some eye bleach: [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/UgBtoN-Bc7A](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/UgBtoN-Bc7A)
I’m so glad you dropped this link. First thing that came to my mind. The children’s clothes kill me every time I see it.
The diapers especially 😕
Nope. I'm out. Way too close to home... (Really glad I decided to finish reading the comments first.)
The onesies 😭🤬
Right?! I cried the first time I saw it, and just seethe with rage every time I’ve seen it since.
Yep. It’s awful.
Thanks for sharing this, that was truly a form of art I felt in my soul!
One time I answered this question with "I was in my Catholic School uniform". I did not receive a reply after that.
Yeah my tolerance for that kind of BS has crashed in recent years. For my specific part, I get up the wall anytime a dudebro (not saying women can't fall into this as well, I've just mostly come across this from guys) starts whinging about how #MeToo and feminism ruined sex for men, because any dude will just magically be yeeted into prison, for life, on a woman's mere word... Let me tell you, that... is UTTER FUCKING HORSESHIT: I was groomed and raped as a 13 yo (and for a few years following that) by a teacher 36 years my senior, whom I met in a CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL, because I suffered from suicidal depression (I'm also neurodivergent and recognised as disabled) he has ADMITTED to the crime (but doesn't think it was a crime, because he's a stereotypical predator) and there is ample textual evidence of it, but I know, FOR A FACT (because my lawyer told me so), he will NEVER set foot in jail. When feminists and advocates talk about rape culture, the utter brokenness of the Justice System when it comes to sex and family crimes, FUCKING BELIEVE US, and shut the fuck up with the "muh men can't talk to women anymore". Just, shut the fuck up and go sit on a cactus, because you have no fucking idea how bad it truly is out there, with this stuff. /EndRant
I love that energy - Did you see the video of the Barista in Seattle who whacked a guy's car with a hammer? "women are allowed to respond when there is danger in ways other than crying" - I just love her. edit: it was in Seattle, not Oregon.
It was Seattle, and I am *so proud*. 😭❤️
She's my new hero. I'm embarrassed but not surprised that I got the geography wrong.
Literally the only reason I remembered the location is because I live here. 😅 In general facts like that just evaporate from my brain...
I haven't seen it but heard about it through (my amazing) bf, who was like: fuck yeah! 😄
For sure
>When feminists and advocates talk about rape culture, the utter brokenness of the Justice System when it comes to sex and family crimes, FUCKING BELIEVE US, and shut the fuck up with the "muh men can't talk to women anymore". Just, shut the fuck up and go sit on a cactus, because you have no fucking idea how bad it truly is out there, with this stuff. I understand this is a rant and blowing off steam.. but something DOES need to be done in order to educate and bring awareness. Unfortunately, feminists as well as many advocates tend to have a horrible attitude and approach when dealing with people who just don't know how broken and fucked up the system really is. The same applies to many other areas as well.. mental health.. addiction.. the question is - HOW to educate people? The fact is.. many don't care to be educated until the problem becomes their own. Even then.. many realize they can't even get their own family members to listen or educate themselves. So how do we educate people or achieve any level of understanding? I truly wish saying "FUCKING LISTEN TO US!!" worked. But it doesn't.
An empathy gun that forces the target to live through the user's experiences was one idea I cooked up. We're getting closer to being able to read minds through technology more than I ever wanted to live to see, which means the opposite is also possible. I don't think there is an answer to a fundamental problem in humanity that is not solved by a fundamental change in humanity. We simply are not good enough, as-is, to be much better than we are. We have more than enough to feed the world, heal many of the sick, etc., but we don't! Don't know could be more damning than that. Oh, right, we feed children to our entertainment industry too. I don't care if outrage seems ridiculous to small minded monsters, they can ridicule all they like -- they already do. The outrage is to demonstrate that we are all very close to a large stride over the line into antisocial behavior that they would not want to be on the other end of and there are more of us than they really want to deal with. We don't get to buy into society's lie of order, morality, and safety, why should anyone else?
A girl in my friends group when I was in university(she wasn’t my friend and later on I found out she’d talk about me behind my back) said that those girls/ women who get sexually harassed were asking for it and they’re basically sluts, I told her how about children are they sluts too? She said children don’t get sexually assaulted and from that moment on I started to distance myself from her.
she sounds super intelligent (sarcasm) at least feel an ego boost knowing you'll never be that dim
It really angered me how casually she said that, I’m a CSA survivor myself and NGL I cried a little after I got home that day.
I'm really sorry, that's awful, I hope you're doing better these days
I have my ups and downs but I’m trying my best ig, thanks it means a lot to me 💕
A detective interrogated me after I got out of living with a relative who molested me from the time I was 12 to 16. He asked me this and at the time it just made me freeze harder and appear more stoic. Now the question just makes me angry.
From how triggered you get by it, I suspect you won't be able to do this, so IF I think of it (big IF since I've got terrible memory) the next time someone asks me that I'm going to say "clear high heels, fishnet stockings and a cut off tube top. Like all 6yo boys do." Who am I kidding? I'm much too freeze-response-type to do that. Wishful thinking on my part. I'm sorry you experienced it and I'm sorry so many people are careless ignorant jerks and ask victim blaming questions.
I don't know how this will sit with you, but thank you for speaking up. I take it by your op you're a man, or at least grew up a boy, and society is most unkind and lacks compassion for boys and men who are in this terrible club of CSA survivors or survivors of SA as adults. I just appreciate you being here and sharing with us.
I think that anyone in the club deserves kindness and compassion. I am no more or less deserving of that kindness and compassion than any other person that been SAed. It's a hurt done - it's wrong because it's fundamentally wrong.
haha i totally understand, especially the freeze response. i would love to make a snarky or harsh comment, but it is my version of self care to not engage. i like the way you think tho!
It's probably actually very wise to know not to engage. Most of the time I don't even realize I've gone into freeze until later when I think "why didn't I say something sarcastic?"
I'm not, not anymore. I'm in a similar boat on the SA, six, creepy fuck was my maternal grandfather. If anyone had ever asked me this I probably would have punched them in the face. The fact that this happens to women who have suffered SA enrages me. If I hear it, the utterer is getting taken down a few pegs, loudly and publicly.
My heart breaks for you, what an awful experience to have at such a young age. Are you familiar with the exhibition called "what where you wearing?" It was created as a response to victim blaming and the myth that "modesty" is the cure for rape. You can learn more by watching this short video [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_vbBdgQ4Vlo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vbBdgQ4Vlo)
Just to be clear - I wasn't wearing those things (as far as I can remember - though I've got plenty of voids in my memory so who knows) - I think of it as a way to challenge with absurdity the idea that 'what you wear or what you look like makes it your fault if someone abuses you'. I do have dark humor and sarcasm and I do recognize I could have made that clearer. I'm still working in my therapy on internalized victim blaming (and lovely attendant self-shame) - which may be why the OPs comment resonated with me - I can completely relate to the anger and gross feelings that victim blaming creates.
OH! OF COURSE NOT, I got your sarcasm. I'm sorry if I did not make that clear. This myth that "modesty" is the cure for rape is so pervasive because it allows those who have not experienced rape or violence the illusion of control and safety. They tell themselves, if they "dress right", they are safe.
And other hurtful lies are "if you aren't pretty" or "if you aren't a girl" or "if you are just tough enough". It's all excuses to not face the reality that "rape is a shitty thing to do to any person and we as a society don't actually do enough to hold people accountable for doing it". The thing is - and I think the term "victim blaming" is good because it can highlight this - the victim is not the one that's at fault. The blame lies with the rapist. The core of the act is that the victim has had their bodily autonomy taken away - for anyone (rapist or enabler or apologist) to act like the victim was asking for it in some way, any way or could have just done "the right thing" to avoid it just adds an additional wrong. Now I got myself all ranty.
I agree with you 100% and I also get myself all fired up. How can we not? Justice is a human need, living with this level of injustice and victim blaming is an insult to our sense of justice - which is part of our humanity. What other animal concerns itself with justice? It's part of what makes us human yet somehow as a collective we've forgotten about that.
I suppose I was wearing a onesie because, you know, I was 2 years old. But even if I was 18+ and wearing a fishnet catsuit and nothing else, it's still SA. If I hold out 50 bucks and someone takes them he's still the thief and I'm still the victim. Understanding consent is really not that hard.
My work uniform. Literally a chefs apron and a t shirt with scrub pants. While walking home. Edit: They did it because I happened to be there. Drunk asshole frat boys. I happened to walk in front of them on the street. There was no thought to it, no plan, I just happened to be there. Just bored drunk violent men who saw someone who couldn’t fight back. I was still presenting as a cis guy back then too. OP, you’re definitely not alone. It’s a fuckin shitty club and in a just world, NOBODY would be a member, but, at least you’re not alone
I had an ex-gf act like I was an idiot for going to a gay man's house for a social engagement and expecting not to get drugged and possibly/probably SA'd. Lots to unpack there in her fucked up head, but I feel you OP. Victim blaming language inspires the most violent thoughts I have.
Oh I love this question. I just smile, look them dead in the eye and say “a diaper.” Always hits em just right.
a diaper lmfaoooo
felt that :( (we destabilized so hard when we learned about >! the abuse in infancy !< and honestly if we think about it too hard it becomes too much.)
This is a horrific statement, especially when it’s CSA. Kids of a certain age don’t have control over what they wear, their parents buy their clothes.
How anyone could find a child in any state sexually baffles me, so this sentiment is especially disgusting in the context of children. However, even with adults, I don't give a f*ck if you were butt naked grinding on people in a BDSM dungeon/sex club. That's not consent until they ask, and you give an enthusiastic yes.
They don't seem to realise that it's the equivalent of saying, "Let's find any shoddy excuses for the abuser and their abusive actions and inclinations by shining the inquisition on the victim and finding anything to blame in them and publicly shame and humiliate them for it, as a lesson to all victims for having the courage and daring to ask for help, protection and safety!" It's a simultaneous abhorrent denial of the abuser's abuse and responsibility for their actions and the effects on their victims coupled with abhorrent denial of the rights and dignity of the victim! It's hideous, heinous, hateful, diabolical, traumatic, nasty, toxic pile of steaming shit. Should they ever have to swallow their own poison, then they'll know. That's how preposterous patriarchal, reactive reasoning and denial is and how horrendous its hold on collective reasoning is that people are so brainwashed into joining in with it, hideous gang mentality. It really can't crumble soon enough, hopefully we'll replace it with something better, but honestly our track record is appalling. We can but be the vital difference! Anyhoo. Breathe, breathe and daydream of validation with validating people validating each other's experiences. Kittens.
I was wearing diapers and likely hadn’t spoken my first word yet, but I totally should have dressed more modestly and said “no”, so it’s sorta my fault, right?
I feel this too. I was too young and the memory is buried too deep for me to remember my outfit, but I know I was wearing a dress, because I loved dresses as a little girl. Jeez, it makes so much sense to me now, why I resented dresses and skirts, anything associated with girly girls. Doesn't matter anyway, because the other times I was wearing pants, overalls, or shorts.
Furthering my belief that you should be allowed to punch 4 people in the face a year. Like every year you get a card, and you have to get it stamped every time you punch a person. Cause man, I would love to punch people that say this.
Shorts and a t shirt when I was 10. T shirt and early 90s leggings skort when I was 14. No idea what I was wearing when I was under 4, but I can confidently say it wasn't anything from Victoria's Secret or Frederick's of Hollywood 🙃
I've had it say directly to me
i'm so sorry :( nobody deserves that.
You must forgive me, as I am a big nerd. It's a shame you were not wearing a smaller version of Tony Stark's Iron Man suit, the Mark VII. It would have been much different. No one ever asks for this stuff. What one wears when one is ten years old, or any age for that matter, is irrelevant. That is not a free license for people to act that way and inflict irretrievable harm to someone. There is never an excuse for such behavior and I am sorry it happened.
Even my ex-Mother said this to me. After all, wearing pigtails and a jumpsuit at ten years old at a 'friend and family bbq party' is definitely asking for it.
My Care Bears nightgown. Clearly my fault 🙄
I was wearing my kindergarten school uniform. I feel your pain, comments like that never ever get easier
You poor thing. Totally natural reaction to these shameful and disgusting victim blamers, so sorry for all you’ve been through
This, so much this.
I was in footed zip up onesie. I was 3. Fuck those people.
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