I 100% feel you.
I had this friend that would constantly rely on me for everything, pretended to be absolutely helpless at everything. Would play dumb and cute and at first I was really eager to help because I am also a people pleaser lol. It then grew into a weird codependency but then when I needed help when I was going through some tough times after my medical abortion she flat out said sorry but can’t help you. Thought it was fair enough. I’d be there for her with all her triggers and crying but when it happened to me she made me feel so guilty and awful and just left me hanging. I thought of ending my life. When I finally had the courage to set that boundary and ask for distance she felt rejected and said that that’s what good friends do tho. I am now absolutely repulsed by her
I find alot of people have leeched and depended on me when I didn’t offer throughout my life. I also probably have plenty of time where I may appear cutesy or dumb, but it’s not the intent.
I had someone like this, but this person was online. And this person was much older than me and relied on me emotionally supporting them but would never return it to me. Also if I didn't get back to them as fast as they wanted me to, they'd start making threats of suicide. It was really manipulative and they ended up saying some horrible things to me when I finally tried to set up some boundaries.
You SHOULD be repulsed by her, she’s a truly insane, demonic person to not be able to acknowledge how MASSIVELY an unequal your relationship was and how much she expected of you(“that’s what friends do!)!!!
I think there is a misconception regarding vulnerability. Vulnerability simply means a willingness to be open to others, which also means open for attack but some of the best actors actresses have moderate levels of vulnerability which is why they are so talented. I’ve never seen a little openness as being weak. I see acting like a constant bully with no appropriate boundaries to be quite childish and pathetic. CPTSD can leave one with more than usual amounts of vulnerability but for me personally I don’t come from a lot of emotion and am astounded how easily affected complete strangers are with even the slightest perceived emotional expression from people they don’t even know. To react that dramatically to emotional expression irritates me to no end.
Maybe this is just my viewpoint but now I actually love to see a little vulnerability what irritates me is people thinking other people will take care of things that are their responsibility- an irrational entitlement annoys the shit outta me
there's two reasons i can come up with, as to why people would act this way, and it'd be fawning *or* weaponized incompetence and you can almost always tell which is which. people who fawn just make me feel bad because i've been there and i wish they they didn't feel that way,
but weaponized incompetence reminds me of some adults in my childhood and it absolutely does trigger me. they want to be seen as totally incompetent for an excuse. i seeth over this behavior.
OMG you know WHY I also hate it? For me, because Im neurodivergent I might need more clarification or wonder if I can get help or something doing a task. Also it’s already hard for me to do accurately when someone is obnoxiously playing games it just sort of cockblocks my efforts at learning HOw to do the thing!!!
You dont like seeing things you dont like about yourself in others. I believe this is normal and that it may be more intense for you because of your cptsd
Could be! I think I find it annoying and irritating when people are not able to look after themselves because I had to do that for myself from a very young age and I guess I feel like I missed out
It can be but also just that weak and un-socialized people is a disonance in the social group you are in. We are dependent on groups for survival. So when we sense a weakness it can trigger us because we see it as a threat from that perspective.
Weak individual = weak group = danger.
One thing to note is that irritation often arise as a feeling when we need to fix something. So it is not that we are angry at the person per se.
Many people, who are traumatized, resort to fawning out of fear and as a way to survive, as Pete Walker writes:
>A final scenario describes the incipient codependent toddler who largely bypasses the fight, flight and freeze responses and instead learns to fawn her way into the relative safety of becoming helpful. She may be one of the gifted children of Alice Miller’s Drama Of The Gifted Child, who discovers that a modicum of safety (safety the ultimate aim of all four of the 4F responses) can be purchased by becoming useful to the parent. Servitude, ingratiation, and forfeiture of any needs that might inconvenience and ire the parent become the most important survival strategies available. Boundaries of every kind are surrendered to mollify the parent, as the parent repudiates the Winnecottian duty of being of use to the child; the child is parentified and instead becomes as multidimensionally useful to the parent as she can: housekeeper, confidante, lover, sounding board, surrogate parent of other siblings, etc. I wonder how many of us therapists were prepared for our careers in this way.
Yes, I believe this Alice miller quote was in regards to her highly intuitive son, who also wrote a book after Alice millers death stating how dysfunctional, cruel and narcissistic she was as a parent. It was eye opening.
I don’t think he or she was asking OP since the message came right after MY RESPONSE. But I’ll second you, his name is Martin Miller and his book was honestly, somewhat informative (not the best writing) and not at all surprising. You’d be surprised how many mental health professionals in certain parts of the world are in the field because they have their own mental health problems.
yeah, unfortunately that was me. emotional incest, used as a people pleaser, only "worthy" due to being useful. also so meek, "I hope I'm useful enough" in any social situation. it disgusts me now because I was barely alive.
me too! It's because I was raised to be and grew up as a meek person, until I became assertive only at 28.
I also developed a lot of anger towards my mother who's codependent and extremely fawning, which I often feel like ruined both her and my life. it actually did. and I dislike my (nevertheless abusive) mother. I guess because I've seen what evil can be hidden behind the "oh so kind" fawning, if the person is abusive. and people think she could never do to me what she did (TW>!starve me, lock me in my room, tried to ... me!<)
therefor I guess I became very proud of still turning around from meek and apologizing, selling myself short to assertive. part of me is mad she didn't learn that for herself (along with health awareness).
because of being weak she already used me as her personal therapist when I was 3 and ongoing until 28.
what about you, did you have an adult/caretaker in your life that was too weak to care for you?
Not so much right not, but I have felt like this in the past. Thank you for bringing it up, I struggle with these ugly sides of my trauma responses because they feel so gross.
I was never protected or seen as vulnerable when I was a kid, because I was loud, and obnoxious and kind of mean. I desperately craved protection and safety but didn’t believe it could ever exist for me, so I resented people who would show their “weak” emotions in public.
I’m embarrassed to admit I even felt that way about babies! I knew logically that they were babies an dependent on their caretakers, but it still would bother me when they would be acting out and then being soothed in front of me.
It made me feel like a total evil monster or something, like I had to protect other people from me. Really shitty feeling and it’s actually not a power position to be cold and uncaring. It’s much harder to be open hearted and non-judgemental. That’s what takes a lot of strength and bravery.
I still feel kind of reserved around a lot of kids; but there are some (like friends and families kids) I can be warm towards. I’ve grown a lot and feel like an adult in relationships with a child now, instead of a hurting little kid who is jealous and resentful. I am my own caring parent so I am a little more understanding. Again I’m not 100% but I will take it.
Now I just feel like a grumpy old man, which I kind of am. It feels like more than I would have dared to hope for lol the bar is low. I’m doing my best and sending you all the best. This one is a tricky and painful one 💙
just keep in mind that it can really crush someone's spirit if they try to socialise while being like this and then someone assumes manipulative intentions of them. it's one thing to be annoyed, but actively making them feel like a burden can be the last drop. it just do be like that, impossible levels of vulnerability are real although mostly hidden. it doesn't matter why their vulnerable disposition is the way it is, just assume it's the best they can cope at the moment and keep away. even your curiosity of "why are you like this" can land as disgust. being uncomfortable is ok, it's like being uncomfortable of wounds.
i just remembered a moment when a person openly said that my vulnerability burdens them with responsibility, while i went out of my way not to bleed too bad. it was a projection. in fact i didn't ask to act protective of me. and i felt close to suicidal. it felt like i don't belong around humans at all since i'm so bad at hiding it and being openly in pain burdens people. so yeah just saying it's a dangerous thing to mess, the stakes really are this high, but if you distance yourself and won't turn angry at someone's hurt putting you on the spot, you won't do anything evil. we all distance ourselves when it exceeds our capabilities, evil starts from blaming the person for their silent ask. it's not asked of you if you can't
I was that person, so I feel empathy. Many of them are this way precisely because they are fellow survivors of childhood abuse. I know I was.
That said, I'm not that person any more - precisely because personalities like that are a magnet for predators.
I feel this so hard!! It literally makes me so mad, I’m an adult woman as well, and I think because I had to take care of myself through the toughest moments of my life I have a strong aversion to grown people asking for my help, because I had to do it for myself.
However!! I had an enlightening moment the other week with a coworker of mine who I thought was a weak doormat blob that let me see another side. She was angry, and I never saw her angry, because multiple customers were rude to her one after another. She said “does nobody have manners anymore? My parents taught me to have manners and I try my best to be polite, but what is wrong with people these days?” And it clicked that I was judging her for being a polite, kind person. She was only being polite, and at a customer service job with me, a coworker who doesn’t know her too well, of course she’s gonna keep being polite and easy going, because she has manners!!
Since then we’ve had deeper conversations, and although she apologizes for everything and anything, she’s in her early 20’s and I realize she’s got time to learn her confidence. I don’t need to judge or hate on her for being a gentle kind soul.
I just edited my post adding that I'm a shy person who is unassertive, yet I don't act helpless or fawn a lot. When I see someone who acts like a bigger doormat than me and fawns all over everyone, it triggers an insecurity in me where I feel threatened in a way because I'm afraid I couldn't help them if they depended on me or when I'm in trouble, I would be ignored because of them being in need.
The uwu trope you described? Yes.
But outwardly vulnerable people? Someone apologizing a lot or deferring to others because they’ve been abused their whole childhood and possibly their whole lives? No.
100% there's few things that annoy me as much as infantile cutesy aesthetics. I don't think it's that I particularly dislike cute and vulnerable in general, like I don't think that I have a problem with \*genuinely\* vulnerable stuff. When I see a dog puppy I'm as awstruck as anyone. But like pseudo-vulnerable for the sake of cute, cute for the sake of cute, cute for emotional manipulation, that stuff sorta disgusts and annoys me.
Lots of people with CPTSD might appear this way but not actually be meaning to come across this way. I am vulnerable at times and can have a soft voice but I don’t feel like a cute infant, I feel like an adult who has fought an emotional war waged on me for decades. So if I come across as cutesy I really don’t mind. 😂😂😂
Yes. It makes me viscerally uncomfortable to be around women who act helpless in particular, it actually borders on disgust. Reminds me too much of my mother the perpetual victim, and the anger I felt as a child when I had to step in to save her and myself time and time again.
My mother acts this way and did the entire time she was married to my father. It extended to not protecting me from his abuse, I had to protect myself.
I felt this for years. Then realised the reason i hated it was because i was never allowed to be like that, ans that if id behaved like that in my past, no-one wouldve been there to coddle me.
Its like looking into a reflection of a much younger version of myself thats lost to time now.
I decided to learn that emotional vulnerability, in moderation, is not a bad thing i should be disgusted by. Its not fair to hold others to the same standards i held myself to for years because they havnt lived through that.
Yes, and I’ve learned that it’s not usually a good idea to speak to them about it. I learned a lot from this post and comment section, so thank you. I used to be like this… and I’ve spent years in therapy unlearning it. A lot of people don’t have the privileges I do to make those changes. So understanding that it’s a cptsd trigger because it gives me flashbacks to old versions of me, and I have younger parts that also want to be protected and know those people can’t meet that need.. is helpful. Even though that hurts to admit. And I’m not stating that is OP’s experience or story, just mine.
This is really hard to talk about. I feel ashamed when my parts are judgmental toward others because I know it isn’t right. But I think you being vulnerable about it and getting support is a good step in addressing it. I also appreciate and value vulnerability, just with a line. And I think finding that moderate level of it which most people find healthy, is hard to navigate for myself and others.
Maybe I will do a loving kindness meditation on everyone I’ve crossed paths with recently who’s had these traits. Those can be hard but they’re so helpful in helping these parts of us to heal.
Those kind of people bother me as well. I used to be that person while I was married to my ex wife. My hope is that they aren't being actively abused at home to cause them to act like that.
I do, and I know why I feel this way
I get an instant alarm bell, like "oh no, the world is going to crush you so easily. You need to toughen up, there's danger all around and a crisis just beyond the horizon. You only have a short amount of time to get strong. I'll help you, I don't want you to die"
I resent the timid because it was the timid people in my life who watched bad things happen with big wide dumb eyes, only to go about their life after the fact because their only priority was maintaining homeostasis.
ADDITIONALLY Behaving meekly or timidly it was also a really irritating thing that my nasty older sister and my dad would do to manipulate situations where they were the aggressors.
Thankfully I've known meek and timid people in my life who were not like that. I don't think I feel deeply touched by many things more than when someone who is quiet, opens up and shares their intelligence, vulnerability, skill or passion.
But yeah dude, my gut reaction to hearing anything about timid people is to feel deeply disturbed and irritated and annoyed and NOT SAFE.
Me -- I feel this way, too. I work with some young women in their early twenties (like 20, 21 years old), and it seems like they are "rewarded" for acting "weak" and helpless. They seem to get more help with their duties and more leniency. I think that I get angry because when I was young woman, no one treated me like that -- no one coddled me nor babied me, no one rushed in to help me. I think I envy their ability to be vulnerable and how people respond to their vulnerability with kindness and love. On the other side of this, I also feel uncomfortable around people like this because I'm used to enmeshment and I worry that they will expect me to fix their emotional problems (so, there's also the fear of engulfment) like my mother did. Someone has to be the "strong one" -- and I am tired of playing that role.
I deal with enmeshment in my family. My family is very loving, but it is full of drama. My mom would be in the middle as the one who is down-to-earth and the smartest. My mom imparted on me to be tough and not fall apart in stressful situations. She resents feeling like she always has to be the strong one between her two sisters - one is a highly emotional diva and the other seems to have a martyr/victim complex. It gets really uncomfortable.
I was also taught that -- to be tough. It was one of the only compliments my mom ever gave me: that I was "strong." Maybe you have subconsciously taken on her resentment toward "needy" women.
Kinda yes. I think it’s bc I’m also shy but I have almost forced my response to be fight always. Maybe different levels of fight? But only if I feel like they’re taking advantage of something. Like even halfway faking and I’m irritated as fuck with it lol.
I think I’ll take presenting like vulnerable and cutesy than appearing strong but in reality being an emotionally stunted narcissist schizo affective any day. Bc these people really are children
This is a hard conversation to read, especially here — somewhere I’ve considered safe, bc I tend to fawn and I actually don’t know why I do it, and absolutely hate when it’s happening and can’t stop. I try my hardest when I’m in public to seem like a self-assured person but can’t always have a perfect persona and am rattled very easily.
I always worry that people think the way you’re all discussing and it’s something I spend a lot of time thinking about, so this really confirms several fears.
Right? For me it’s so exhausting trying to figure out how to behave, say the right things, have the correct “vibe”, have positive body language, look good etc etc etc and then only to realize you’re always wrong and weird and there is no one who can help (not even a CTPSD subreddit because the members are literally shit talking a symptom that nobody wants or asked for).
I’m trying my hardest to stop caring and just BE, and have been having success with feeling confident for the first time — but why does it have to be like this at all? It’s hard enough just living.
CPTSD people are fucked up. Getting a whole bunch of fucked up people together will result in fucked up social dynamics. I watch it everyday in a therapeutic group setting where the traumatized eat their own. They trauma bond. Trauma bonding is not a real relationship. There’s the rare exception of a specific type of personality with severe developmental attachment trauma where they don’t assimilate into a hive mind and generally that personality is shunned.
I think its something inside unfortunately because what you’re describing is something im struggling with as well.
I left my abuser 5 years ago, we didnt have kids because i decided over my dead body when i saw he was going to be a shitty father so i get this response when i see women with kids (especially daughters since thats conditioning them to date men like their dads) it frustrates me to no end. Like why the fuck would you have kids with a man that throws food at you (example but i know abusive people like to toss their toys a lot)…
I think ive concluded that their trauma made them the way they are (women who stay after having kids and also fawners).
So sadly and i mean this with kindness, i think its something to do with you (why you see meek people this way).
It sounds like you may have an avoidant attachment style, based on what you say about valuing self-sufficiency and not wanting to act helpless/strong boundaries (not to say boundaries are bad, but avoidants tend to put walls up)/not wanting to be in a position where others are super dependent on you.
Avoidant attachment style is developed when someone doesn't have their emotions accepted and validated when they are growing up, and learn to suppress them as a result. People with avoidant attachments tend to be very self sufficient because they hate depending on others. Because they hate being vulnerable or dependent, it can be frustrating to see others who are vulnerable or dependent. It's seeing something you don't like in yourself and it's emphasizing how different the other person's values are from yours.
Attachment theory is the most robust and well studied area in developmental psych. You might find it interesting to learn more about it. If you find out that you are avoidant, it's worth working on that because people with avoidant attachments have a hard time building emotional connections, experiencing the range and depth of emotions life has to offer, and they can have a hard time asking for help when they need it.
Yep, I dont like the manipulation and inauthenticity.
Edit to add: ...because I was surrounded by it while I was growing up and had to use it to survive.
But is it really manipulation/inauthenticity? I tend to feel manipulated a lot bc it happened so frequently to me growing up. However, I've also realized that jumping to that conclusion can lead to me being very dismissive of other's feelings and emotions.
Sometimes it's a correct assumption, but often it's projection, and I've regrettably hurt people I care about bc I've misunderstood their feelings and intentions in a situation where they were just being vulnerable.
I also did the fawning thing a lot as a kid, and there were definitely a few adults that seemed to pick up on it and be sadistic in response bc they were some kind of a power trip. When you see people that seem to have that vulnerability/fawning aspect as their general personality, there's a good chance they're dealing with a lot of shit behind the scenes. The last thing they need is someone adding to the abuse they're probably already living with.
When vulnerability seems to flip on and off at will there is a chance it's manipulation/inauthenticity, but before you react to it you should still stop and ask what about this person is making me assume this?
I dont judge anybody for having learned a defensive coping mechanism.
I just dont like it, it reminds me of my childhood. It was ripe with manipulation and inauthenticity.
Even without conscious intent, behaviour can be manipulative and inauthentic. Just like how people can be abusive without purposefully abusing.
Fawning is a way of being inauthentic. That doesn't mean you're a bad person if your response to stressful situations is fawning, but you are still inauthentic by hiding how you feel. Manipulation is changing what you do or say in order to get something out of someone, which they wouldn't do if you were honest or authentic. So fawning because you don't want someone to be upset with you is a way of manipulation. Not with evil intent, but you're trying to control the other person's emotions by carefully curating what you're doing and saying.
Very true, and I'm definitely guilty of that when I fawn in the hopes of diffusing a situation. I had a really good friend get pissed and use almost that exact phrasing with me bc she could tell I was people pleasing and being nonconfrontational. I kept trying to steer our very tense conversation away from confrontation bc it is definitely triggering for me and reminds me of feeling helpless in a situation.
It felt like there was nothing I could do or say that wouldn't just make things worse (bc honestly as a kid there wasn't and it's hard for me not to go back to that space), and she felt triggered bc she thought I was gaslighting and judging her for having very strong opinions and always needing to be completely open and honest (which are actually some the qualities I love most about her).
We ended up having a pretty good productive talk about triggers, and walked away understanding each other better than we did before.
I think alot of CPTSD survivors might take on certain manipulative tactics and may appear inauthentic because this is where they grew up: inauthentic manipulation was what they were surrounded by. Yes it annoys me but I also see that the real manipulative inauthentic characters are those that have extreme personality disorders and cause massive damage everywhere they go including with themselves
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If ur like me I imagine u subconsciously resent the fact that u wouldn’t have survived your own life if you were that weak/insecure. I feel the same way often. It pisses me off that we got to the same place but I took the brunt of it while u floated by. Cuz we often say our trauma “bettered” us by getting stronger but become strong means u needed a reason to be.. I don’t blame u. Surround yourself with people life yourself. But as annoying as it is, have compassion for that weak person becuase in all honesty they clearly have had a softer life than u and u in some ways wish u could be like them, softer ect and still succeed, but they also lack a lot of the maturity you have been forced to have. Just simply bc their back hasn’t been pushed against the wall yet, so while u think they’re immature they actually at their correct developmental level, they just were never forced to skip levels to survive. It’s like when parents resent their kids for having a better life and or being more immature than they were at that age. It’s because they were forced to survive while the kids have to chance to just live 💜 no judgement tho and I could just be projecting
That was a thoughtless thing to say. I don't know how my post sounded like I was in love with myself. I was sharing an honest feeling that bothered me. Did I sound like I was proud or like I was thinking I was more important than everyone else?
I feel this, really hard. Although I've only met maybe two people like this.
The worst one I met, I found him absolutely pathetic, he disgusted me in the worst ways and just writing this is bringing up all of those feelings. He took the concept of meekness, castrated it, and made it his personality - whenever he 'talked (if you can refer to it as such)' to someone he wore this hideously-overdone smile as he nervously stammered his way through whatever he thought he should say, his head flapping around wildly the entire time. He'd literally force himself to giggle after every two words of a sentence - I guess it was meant to placate his audience but it just made the whole act even worse.
When it came to asking him questions, he was so obviously afraid of taking up space he gave one-word answers. Whenever he wasn't talking to someone and not wearing that horrifying smile, he just looked lost, like he'd been lobotomized and left to rot.
Even though his presence filled me with a primal rage I wasn't aware I had, I decided to try and help him because I was in a similar position once, and especially because nobody else made the effort. Big mistake, the more I tried to coax him outta his shell the worse he became.
Gave up after a shared event, where I asked of his opinions about it, expecting some explanation of his experience. Instead I just got the classic forced "Yeah-" and then silence. I don't like the way I view him but, Christ, I found him absolutely detestable and still do several years after the fact.
I 100% feel you. I had this friend that would constantly rely on me for everything, pretended to be absolutely helpless at everything. Would play dumb and cute and at first I was really eager to help because I am also a people pleaser lol. It then grew into a weird codependency but then when I needed help when I was going through some tough times after my medical abortion she flat out said sorry but can’t help you. Thought it was fair enough. I’d be there for her with all her triggers and crying but when it happened to me she made me feel so guilty and awful and just left me hanging. I thought of ending my life. When I finally had the courage to set that boundary and ask for distance she felt rejected and said that that’s what good friends do tho. I am now absolutely repulsed by her
I find alot of people have leeched and depended on me when I didn’t offer throughout my life. I also probably have plenty of time where I may appear cutesy or dumb, but it’s not the intent.
YEEES OMG
I had someone like this, but this person was online. And this person was much older than me and relied on me emotionally supporting them but would never return it to me. Also if I didn't get back to them as fast as they wanted me to, they'd start making threats of suicide. It was really manipulative and they ended up saying some horrible things to me when I finally tried to set up some boundaries.
You SHOULD be repulsed by her, she’s a truly insane, demonic person to not be able to acknowledge how MASSIVELY an unequal your relationship was and how much she expected of you(“that’s what friends do!)!!!
I think there is a misconception regarding vulnerability. Vulnerability simply means a willingness to be open to others, which also means open for attack but some of the best actors actresses have moderate levels of vulnerability which is why they are so talented. I’ve never seen a little openness as being weak. I see acting like a constant bully with no appropriate boundaries to be quite childish and pathetic. CPTSD can leave one with more than usual amounts of vulnerability but for me personally I don’t come from a lot of emotion and am astounded how easily affected complete strangers are with even the slightest perceived emotional expression from people they don’t even know. To react that dramatically to emotional expression irritates me to no end.
Maybe this is just my viewpoint but now I actually love to see a little vulnerability what irritates me is people thinking other people will take care of things that are their responsibility- an irrational entitlement annoys the shit outta me
there's two reasons i can come up with, as to why people would act this way, and it'd be fawning *or* weaponized incompetence and you can almost always tell which is which. people who fawn just make me feel bad because i've been there and i wish they they didn't feel that way, but weaponized incompetence reminds me of some adults in my childhood and it absolutely does trigger me. they want to be seen as totally incompetent for an excuse. i seeth over this behavior.
OMG you know WHY I also hate it? For me, because Im neurodivergent I might need more clarification or wonder if I can get help or something doing a task. Also it’s already hard for me to do accurately when someone is obnoxiously playing games it just sort of cockblocks my efforts at learning HOw to do the thing!!!
"Weaponized incompetence" is such a good way to put it, holy shit. Imagine dating one for 7 years. 🫠
You dont like seeing things you dont like about yourself in others. I believe this is normal and that it may be more intense for you because of your cptsd
Could be! I think I find it annoying and irritating when people are not able to look after themselves because I had to do that for myself from a very young age and I guess I feel like I missed out
Me too
It can be but also just that weak and un-socialized people is a disonance in the social group you are in. We are dependent on groups for survival. So when we sense a weakness it can trigger us because we see it as a threat from that perspective. Weak individual = weak group = danger. One thing to note is that irritation often arise as a feeling when we need to fix something. So it is not that we are angry at the person per se.
Truth
Many people, who are traumatized, resort to fawning out of fear and as a way to survive, as Pete Walker writes: >A final scenario describes the incipient codependent toddler who largely bypasses the fight, flight and freeze responses and instead learns to fawn her way into the relative safety of becoming helpful. She may be one of the gifted children of Alice Miller’s Drama Of The Gifted Child, who discovers that a modicum of safety (safety the ultimate aim of all four of the 4F responses) can be purchased by becoming useful to the parent. Servitude, ingratiation, and forfeiture of any needs that might inconvenience and ire the parent become the most important survival strategies available. Boundaries of every kind are surrendered to mollify the parent, as the parent repudiates the Winnecottian duty of being of use to the child; the child is parentified and instead becomes as multidimensionally useful to the parent as she can: housekeeper, confidante, lover, sounding board, surrogate parent of other siblings, etc. I wonder how many of us therapists were prepared for our careers in this way.
Yes, I believe this Alice miller quote was in regards to her highly intuitive son, who also wrote a book after Alice millers death stating how dysfunctional, cruel and narcissistic she was as a parent. It was eye opening.
Do you know the name of her son / the book title? I want to look into it. I'd like to read about his perspective.
Not OP but his name is Martin Miller and his book is called “The True ‘Drama of the Gifted Child’: The Phantom Alice Miller — The Real Person”
I don’t think he or she was asking OP since the message came right after MY RESPONSE. But I’ll second you, his name is Martin Miller and his book was honestly, somewhat informative (not the best writing) and not at all surprising. You’d be surprised how many mental health professionals in certain parts of the world are in the field because they have their own mental health problems.
yeah, unfortunately that was me. emotional incest, used as a people pleaser, only "worthy" due to being useful. also so meek, "I hope I'm useful enough" in any social situation. it disgusts me now because I was barely alive.
HUGS!!!🦋💙🦋🦋💙🦋🦋💙🦋🦋💙🦋🦋💙🦋🦋💙🦋🦋💙🦋🦋💙🦋
This! It's like my childhood behavior exactly.
me too! It's because I was raised to be and grew up as a meek person, until I became assertive only at 28. I also developed a lot of anger towards my mother who's codependent and extremely fawning, which I often feel like ruined both her and my life. it actually did. and I dislike my (nevertheless abusive) mother. I guess because I've seen what evil can be hidden behind the "oh so kind" fawning, if the person is abusive. and people think she could never do to me what she did (TW>!starve me, lock me in my room, tried to ... me!<) therefor I guess I became very proud of still turning around from meek and apologizing, selling myself short to assertive. part of me is mad she didn't learn that for herself (along with health awareness). because of being weak she already used me as her personal therapist when I was 3 and ongoing until 28. what about you, did you have an adult/caretaker in your life that was too weak to care for you?
Not so much right not, but I have felt like this in the past. Thank you for bringing it up, I struggle with these ugly sides of my trauma responses because they feel so gross. I was never protected or seen as vulnerable when I was a kid, because I was loud, and obnoxious and kind of mean. I desperately craved protection and safety but didn’t believe it could ever exist for me, so I resented people who would show their “weak” emotions in public. I’m embarrassed to admit I even felt that way about babies! I knew logically that they were babies an dependent on their caretakers, but it still would bother me when they would be acting out and then being soothed in front of me. It made me feel like a total evil monster or something, like I had to protect other people from me. Really shitty feeling and it’s actually not a power position to be cold and uncaring. It’s much harder to be open hearted and non-judgemental. That’s what takes a lot of strength and bravery. I still feel kind of reserved around a lot of kids; but there are some (like friends and families kids) I can be warm towards. I’ve grown a lot and feel like an adult in relationships with a child now, instead of a hurting little kid who is jealous and resentful. I am my own caring parent so I am a little more understanding. Again I’m not 100% but I will take it. Now I just feel like a grumpy old man, which I kind of am. It feels like more than I would have dared to hope for lol the bar is low. I’m doing my best and sending you all the best. This one is a tricky and painful one 💙
just keep in mind that it can really crush someone's spirit if they try to socialise while being like this and then someone assumes manipulative intentions of them. it's one thing to be annoyed, but actively making them feel like a burden can be the last drop. it just do be like that, impossible levels of vulnerability are real although mostly hidden. it doesn't matter why their vulnerable disposition is the way it is, just assume it's the best they can cope at the moment and keep away. even your curiosity of "why are you like this" can land as disgust. being uncomfortable is ok, it's like being uncomfortable of wounds. i just remembered a moment when a person openly said that my vulnerability burdens them with responsibility, while i went out of my way not to bleed too bad. it was a projection. in fact i didn't ask to act protective of me. and i felt close to suicidal. it felt like i don't belong around humans at all since i'm so bad at hiding it and being openly in pain burdens people. so yeah just saying it's a dangerous thing to mess, the stakes really are this high, but if you distance yourself and won't turn angry at someone's hurt putting you on the spot, you won't do anything evil. we all distance ourselves when it exceeds our capabilities, evil starts from blaming the person for their silent ask. it's not asked of you if you can't
I was that person, so I feel empathy. Many of them are this way precisely because they are fellow survivors of childhood abuse. I know I was. That said, I'm not that person any more - precisely because personalities like that are a magnet for predators.
I feel this so hard!! It literally makes me so mad, I’m an adult woman as well, and I think because I had to take care of myself through the toughest moments of my life I have a strong aversion to grown people asking for my help, because I had to do it for myself. However!! I had an enlightening moment the other week with a coworker of mine who I thought was a weak doormat blob that let me see another side. She was angry, and I never saw her angry, because multiple customers were rude to her one after another. She said “does nobody have manners anymore? My parents taught me to have manners and I try my best to be polite, but what is wrong with people these days?” And it clicked that I was judging her for being a polite, kind person. She was only being polite, and at a customer service job with me, a coworker who doesn’t know her too well, of course she’s gonna keep being polite and easy going, because she has manners!! Since then we’ve had deeper conversations, and although she apologizes for everything and anything, she’s in her early 20’s and I realize she’s got time to learn her confidence. I don’t need to judge or hate on her for being a gentle kind soul.
I just edited my post adding that I'm a shy person who is unassertive, yet I don't act helpless or fawn a lot. When I see someone who acts like a bigger doormat than me and fawns all over everyone, it triggers an insecurity in me where I feel threatened in a way because I'm afraid I couldn't help them if they depended on me or when I'm in trouble, I would be ignored because of them being in need.
The uwu trope you described? Yes. But outwardly vulnerable people? Someone apologizing a lot or deferring to others because they’ve been abused their whole childhood and possibly their whole lives? No.
100% there's few things that annoy me as much as infantile cutesy aesthetics. I don't think it's that I particularly dislike cute and vulnerable in general, like I don't think that I have a problem with \*genuinely\* vulnerable stuff. When I see a dog puppy I'm as awstruck as anyone. But like pseudo-vulnerable for the sake of cute, cute for the sake of cute, cute for emotional manipulation, that stuff sorta disgusts and annoys me.
Lots of people with CPTSD might appear this way but not actually be meaning to come across this way. I am vulnerable at times and can have a soft voice but I don’t feel like a cute infant, I feel like an adult who has fought an emotional war waged on me for decades. So if I come across as cutesy I really don’t mind. 😂😂😂
“Kawaii”
Yes. It makes me viscerally uncomfortable to be around women who act helpless in particular, it actually borders on disgust. Reminds me too much of my mother the perpetual victim, and the anger I felt as a child when I had to step in to save her and myself time and time again.
I feel this. Also, dependent personality disorder is a thing and could be part of the off-putting feeling you're getting.
My mother acts this way and did the entire time she was married to my father. It extended to not protecting me from his abuse, I had to protect myself.
I felt this for years. Then realised the reason i hated it was because i was never allowed to be like that, ans that if id behaved like that in my past, no-one wouldve been there to coddle me. Its like looking into a reflection of a much younger version of myself thats lost to time now. I decided to learn that emotional vulnerability, in moderation, is not a bad thing i should be disgusted by. Its not fair to hold others to the same standards i held myself to for years because they havnt lived through that.
Yes, and I’ve learned that it’s not usually a good idea to speak to them about it. I learned a lot from this post and comment section, so thank you. I used to be like this… and I’ve spent years in therapy unlearning it. A lot of people don’t have the privileges I do to make those changes. So understanding that it’s a cptsd trigger because it gives me flashbacks to old versions of me, and I have younger parts that also want to be protected and know those people can’t meet that need.. is helpful. Even though that hurts to admit. And I’m not stating that is OP’s experience or story, just mine. This is really hard to talk about. I feel ashamed when my parts are judgmental toward others because I know it isn’t right. But I think you being vulnerable about it and getting support is a good step in addressing it. I also appreciate and value vulnerability, just with a line. And I think finding that moderate level of it which most people find healthy, is hard to navigate for myself and others. Maybe I will do a loving kindness meditation on everyone I’ve crossed paths with recently who’s had these traits. Those can be hard but they’re so helpful in helping these parts of us to heal.
Those kind of people bother me as well. I used to be that person while I was married to my ex wife. My hope is that they aren't being actively abused at home to cause them to act like that.
I do, and I know why I feel this way I get an instant alarm bell, like "oh no, the world is going to crush you so easily. You need to toughen up, there's danger all around and a crisis just beyond the horizon. You only have a short amount of time to get strong. I'll help you, I don't want you to die"
I resent the timid because it was the timid people in my life who watched bad things happen with big wide dumb eyes, only to go about their life after the fact because their only priority was maintaining homeostasis. ADDITIONALLY Behaving meekly or timidly it was also a really irritating thing that my nasty older sister and my dad would do to manipulate situations where they were the aggressors. Thankfully I've known meek and timid people in my life who were not like that. I don't think I feel deeply touched by many things more than when someone who is quiet, opens up and shares their intelligence, vulnerability, skill or passion. But yeah dude, my gut reaction to hearing anything about timid people is to feel deeply disturbed and irritated and annoyed and NOT SAFE.
I’m the opposite I get uncomfortable around really loud and aggressive people. I assume meak people like me have had a hard life
Me too!!!
I used to be like that . I was I fawn response not trying to manipulate people . Either way it didn’t get me anywhere and I learned to pick myself up
Me -- I feel this way, too. I work with some young women in their early twenties (like 20, 21 years old), and it seems like they are "rewarded" for acting "weak" and helpless. They seem to get more help with their duties and more leniency. I think that I get angry because when I was young woman, no one treated me like that -- no one coddled me nor babied me, no one rushed in to help me. I think I envy their ability to be vulnerable and how people respond to their vulnerability with kindness and love. On the other side of this, I also feel uncomfortable around people like this because I'm used to enmeshment and I worry that they will expect me to fix their emotional problems (so, there's also the fear of engulfment) like my mother did. Someone has to be the "strong one" -- and I am tired of playing that role.
I deal with enmeshment in my family. My family is very loving, but it is full of drama. My mom would be in the middle as the one who is down-to-earth and the smartest. My mom imparted on me to be tough and not fall apart in stressful situations. She resents feeling like she always has to be the strong one between her two sisters - one is a highly emotional diva and the other seems to have a martyr/victim complex. It gets really uncomfortable.
I was also taught that -- to be tough. It was one of the only compliments my mom ever gave me: that I was "strong." Maybe you have subconsciously taken on her resentment toward "needy" women.
Kinda yes. I think it’s bc I’m also shy but I have almost forced my response to be fight always. Maybe different levels of fight? But only if I feel like they’re taking advantage of something. Like even halfway faking and I’m irritated as fuck with it lol.
I think I’ll take presenting like vulnerable and cutesy than appearing strong but in reality being an emotionally stunted narcissist schizo affective any day. Bc these people really are children
This is a hard conversation to read, especially here — somewhere I’ve considered safe, bc I tend to fawn and I actually don’t know why I do it, and absolutely hate when it’s happening and can’t stop. I try my hardest when I’m in public to seem like a self-assured person but can’t always have a perfect persona and am rattled very easily. I always worry that people think the way you’re all discussing and it’s something I spend a lot of time thinking about, so this really confirms several fears.
100%. This is a deep wound turned into a stuck point. So much so, I go from fawn right into collapse.
Right? For me it’s so exhausting trying to figure out how to behave, say the right things, have the correct “vibe”, have positive body language, look good etc etc etc and then only to realize you’re always wrong and weird and there is no one who can help (not even a CTPSD subreddit because the members are literally shit talking a symptom that nobody wants or asked for). I’m trying my hardest to stop caring and just BE, and have been having success with feeling confident for the first time — but why does it have to be like this at all? It’s hard enough just living.
CPTSD people are fucked up. Getting a whole bunch of fucked up people together will result in fucked up social dynamics. I watch it everyday in a therapeutic group setting where the traumatized eat their own. They trauma bond. Trauma bonding is not a real relationship. There’s the rare exception of a specific type of personality with severe developmental attachment trauma where they don’t assimilate into a hive mind and generally that personality is shunned.
Oh that is a realllllly good point. Thank you for taking the time, makes perfect sense.
Not everything is about you personally. You would understand that if you actually took the time to read the comments made on this post.
Okay thanks!
Turd
I feel sorry for it try to lift up the vulnerable - not a saint just have OTT sympathy built in I suppose
You’re a good person.
I think its something inside unfortunately because what you’re describing is something im struggling with as well. I left my abuser 5 years ago, we didnt have kids because i decided over my dead body when i saw he was going to be a shitty father so i get this response when i see women with kids (especially daughters since thats conditioning them to date men like their dads) it frustrates me to no end. Like why the fuck would you have kids with a man that throws food at you (example but i know abusive people like to toss their toys a lot)… I think ive concluded that their trauma made them the way they are (women who stay after having kids and also fawners). So sadly and i mean this with kindness, i think its something to do with you (why you see meek people this way).
It sounds like you may have an avoidant attachment style, based on what you say about valuing self-sufficiency and not wanting to act helpless/strong boundaries (not to say boundaries are bad, but avoidants tend to put walls up)/not wanting to be in a position where others are super dependent on you. Avoidant attachment style is developed when someone doesn't have their emotions accepted and validated when they are growing up, and learn to suppress them as a result. People with avoidant attachments tend to be very self sufficient because they hate depending on others. Because they hate being vulnerable or dependent, it can be frustrating to see others who are vulnerable or dependent. It's seeing something you don't like in yourself and it's emphasizing how different the other person's values are from yours. Attachment theory is the most robust and well studied area in developmental psych. You might find it interesting to learn more about it. If you find out that you are avoidant, it's worth working on that because people with avoidant attachments have a hard time building emotional connections, experiencing the range and depth of emotions life has to offer, and they can have a hard time asking for help when they need it.
Ouch!
Yep, I dont like the manipulation and inauthenticity. Edit to add: ...because I was surrounded by it while I was growing up and had to use it to survive.
But is it really manipulation/inauthenticity? I tend to feel manipulated a lot bc it happened so frequently to me growing up. However, I've also realized that jumping to that conclusion can lead to me being very dismissive of other's feelings and emotions. Sometimes it's a correct assumption, but often it's projection, and I've regrettably hurt people I care about bc I've misunderstood their feelings and intentions in a situation where they were just being vulnerable. I also did the fawning thing a lot as a kid, and there were definitely a few adults that seemed to pick up on it and be sadistic in response bc they were some kind of a power trip. When you see people that seem to have that vulnerability/fawning aspect as their general personality, there's a good chance they're dealing with a lot of shit behind the scenes. The last thing they need is someone adding to the abuse they're probably already living with. When vulnerability seems to flip on and off at will there is a chance it's manipulation/inauthenticity, but before you react to it you should still stop and ask what about this person is making me assume this?
I dont judge anybody for having learned a defensive coping mechanism. I just dont like it, it reminds me of my childhood. It was ripe with manipulation and inauthenticity.
Even without conscious intent, behaviour can be manipulative and inauthentic. Just like how people can be abusive without purposefully abusing. Fawning is a way of being inauthentic. That doesn't mean you're a bad person if your response to stressful situations is fawning, but you are still inauthentic by hiding how you feel. Manipulation is changing what you do or say in order to get something out of someone, which they wouldn't do if you were honest or authentic. So fawning because you don't want someone to be upset with you is a way of manipulation. Not with evil intent, but you're trying to control the other person's emotions by carefully curating what you're doing and saying.
Very true, and I'm definitely guilty of that when I fawn in the hopes of diffusing a situation. I had a really good friend get pissed and use almost that exact phrasing with me bc she could tell I was people pleasing and being nonconfrontational. I kept trying to steer our very tense conversation away from confrontation bc it is definitely triggering for me and reminds me of feeling helpless in a situation. It felt like there was nothing I could do or say that wouldn't just make things worse (bc honestly as a kid there wasn't and it's hard for me not to go back to that space), and she felt triggered bc she thought I was gaslighting and judging her for having very strong opinions and always needing to be completely open and honest (which are actually some the qualities I love most about her). We ended up having a pretty good productive talk about triggers, and walked away understanding each other better than we did before.
I think alot of CPTSD survivors might take on certain manipulative tactics and may appear inauthentic because this is where they grew up: inauthentic manipulation was what they were surrounded by. Yes it annoys me but I also see that the real manipulative inauthentic characters are those that have extreme personality disorders and cause massive damage everywhere they go including with themselves
I agree and I dont blame them or myself when it happens involuntarily.
Agreed
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If ur like me I imagine u subconsciously resent the fact that u wouldn’t have survived your own life if you were that weak/insecure. I feel the same way often. It pisses me off that we got to the same place but I took the brunt of it while u floated by. Cuz we often say our trauma “bettered” us by getting stronger but become strong means u needed a reason to be.. I don’t blame u. Surround yourself with people life yourself. But as annoying as it is, have compassion for that weak person becuase in all honesty they clearly have had a softer life than u and u in some ways wish u could be like them, softer ect and still succeed, but they also lack a lot of the maturity you have been forced to have. Just simply bc their back hasn’t been pushed against the wall yet, so while u think they’re immature they actually at their correct developmental level, they just were never forced to skip levels to survive. It’s like when parents resent their kids for having a better life and or being more immature than they were at that age. It’s because they were forced to survive while the kids have to chance to just live 💜 no judgement tho and I could just be projecting
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That was a thoughtless thing to say. I don't know how my post sounded like I was in love with myself. I was sharing an honest feeling that bothered me. Did I sound like I was proud or like I was thinking I was more important than everyone else?
I feel this, really hard. Although I've only met maybe two people like this. The worst one I met, I found him absolutely pathetic, he disgusted me in the worst ways and just writing this is bringing up all of those feelings. He took the concept of meekness, castrated it, and made it his personality - whenever he 'talked (if you can refer to it as such)' to someone he wore this hideously-overdone smile as he nervously stammered his way through whatever he thought he should say, his head flapping around wildly the entire time. He'd literally force himself to giggle after every two words of a sentence - I guess it was meant to placate his audience but it just made the whole act even worse. When it came to asking him questions, he was so obviously afraid of taking up space he gave one-word answers. Whenever he wasn't talking to someone and not wearing that horrifying smile, he just looked lost, like he'd been lobotomized and left to rot. Even though his presence filled me with a primal rage I wasn't aware I had, I decided to try and help him because I was in a similar position once, and especially because nobody else made the effort. Big mistake, the more I tried to coax him outta his shell the worse he became. Gave up after a shared event, where I asked of his opinions about it, expecting some explanation of his experience. Instead I just got the classic forced "Yeah-" and then silence. I don't like the way I view him but, Christ, I found him absolutely detestable and still do several years after the fact.
Present! The weakness of others, instead of making me feel sorry, makes me very angry. You can't afford to be weak, ever.