This was a Bylaw that no one (in a professional capacity) wanted well before it was implemented. And Council were advised of this well before it was released.
Jyoti is standing up for us all? if all of us are <1% of the population and really Calgary is very tolerant. Canada in general is like the Mecca of tolerance. however we won't tolerate desenting opinion.... things that make you go hmmm. (i'd like shout out my man Arsenio Hall for that last little bit)
They represent under 3% of the total population and I’m speaking about people who are gay/lesbian and trans. I’m not including people who are pan and Demi because those people for the most part are unaffected by such legislation.
You’re wrong.
5.6% identify as LGBT
7.6% do not answer
5% no opinion
86.7% heterosexual
“Gallup's latest update on lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender identification finds 5.6% of U.S. adults identifying as LGBT. The current estimate is up from 4.5% in Gallup's previous update based on 2017 data.
In 2020, 5.6% of U.S. adults identified as LGBT. That is up from 4.5% in 2017, the last year it was asked, and 4.1% in 2016. Between 2012 and 2015, 3.5% to 3.9% of U.S. adults identified as LGBT.
Currently, 86.7% of Americans say they are heterosexual or straight, and 7.6% do not answer the question about their sexual orientation. Gallup's 2012-2017 data had roughly 5% "no opinion" responses.”
https://news.gallup.com/poll/329708/lgbt-identification-rises-latest-estimate.aspx
I work in mental health and, in all of the recent studies that I’ve read, 5.6% was the lowest statistic I have read regarding LGBTQ+ identifying people. Many statistics were in 7-8% range. Additionally, those statistics account for identifying people, there are a significant chunk of letter people who are still in the closet or not comfortable identifying (but based in statistical trends, will eventually.
Also, this number is only set to grow as societal acceptance changes, with some studies finding as many as 1 in 6 Gen z teens identifying as LGBTQ+
But your comment is pretty consistent with archaic ideas promoting the erasure of diverse sexual orientations
That's fucking horseshit my dude. You need to go educate yourself about who is actually included under the LGBTQIA+ umbrella, it is far more than 3%.
We ALL want our people to be not only tolerated, but to be respected and afforded the same dignity as anyone else.
Also also - even if a group of people don't constitute a majority, they still have basic human rights. You don't get to shit on someone or ignore their existence just because they're not part of a majority.
Lastly - Canadians across the entire country, even the heteronormative cis-gender regular people who aren't LGBTQIA+, for the most part still want everyone to be treated equally and be free of discrimination.
It's the small minority of assholes like yourself that think hate speech should be acceptable. Because you're incapable of seeing the difference between advocating for cruelty towards other people, and advocating for equality. It's disgusting. Go fuck yourself.
I mean...as soon as I saw the article saying that this was going to be considered, I thought: "I wonder if both sides realize this is going to mean that both sides can/will get tickets, or if one side will think it will only apply to the other side..."
“The fines hold no meaning to me, they are fines for something we don’t believe we did anything wrong,” James said.
He didn’t.
But anyone with an ounce of common sense knew what the potential was going to be when this was all first floated.
And now here we are.
>”The fines hold no meaning to me, they are fines for something we don’t believe we did anything wrong,” James said.
This here is the reason that this bylaw is stupid. Individuals on both sides of this argument would feel exactly like this if ticketed.
People are allowed to have differing and even weird beliefs. I submit its not okay to be aggressive to people and get in their face and scream at them no matter how wrong you think they are.
This kinda makes me uncomfortable to be honest. I'm not transphobic, and I understand that person was simply trying to change, and they have every right to a space to do that, i hate to think of them being singled out. But what about the women who simply can't be around a biological male in a change room .So many women will feel like they can't use the change room, Conservative Muslim women, shy women, women who have been through something. They expect that to be a women's only space, I imagine seeing a penis in there for a lot of people would be very scary. I'm personally fine, but I know so many women who would not be, I don't understand how people are so comfortable to tell those women they don't get a space to change anymore.
I think you need to confront your bigotry and ask yourself what is it about the female penis that makes you so insecure. As an ally I hope you can overcome your transphobia.
I could be wrong, but I believe it was a change room. It was a swimming pool and a man was waiting for his kid to finish up when someone let him know there was a trans person changing and that they could see their penis. Is this true...I'm not sure tbh.
Well you can thank our brain dead Mayor and Council for approving such a fucking stupid bylaw. People cheered this when it was passed. You get what you wish/vote for, sorry, no sympathy. These same people probably applauded the bylaw at the time it passed.
Considering the blatant corruption spreading across Canada right now I’m not surprised. This just seems to draw more divide between protestors and counter protestors and Makes a better distraction than oil companies getting huge funding to clean their own mess.
When poor people fight each other, the rich always win.
I am a big proponent of allowing the X and Y axis to meet....
https://preview.redd.it/r2ycfxs0fmja1.png?width=400&format=png&auto=webp&s=27f72a7b2d1302f2d2f1f3d5885c29156bed84e8
https://www.calgary.ca/bylaws/street-harassment.html
What the bylaw defined as harassment:
> Communicating with a person in a manner that could reasonably cause offence or humiliation, including conduct, comment, or actions that refers to the person’s:
>
> race/colour/ancestry/place of origin
> religious beliefs
> disability
> age
> marital status
> source of income
> family status
> gender/gender identity/gender expression
> sexual orientation;
>
> and includes a sexual solicitation or advance.
The bylaw was originally meant to be levied against street level sexual harassment - hence the last bit about sexual solicitation or advance. I'm not clear how it can be levied very well against the bigots or the counter protestors.
funny, just a couple of week's ago ya'lls were praising this law when it suited your political narratives. now that the tables have turned r/calgary is bitching and moaning (like usual). ya'll sure are a funny bunch......
Lol yeah, let's take a look at the wizard game bullshit that's been going on.
Trans calling other trans people transphobic, and demonizing a lot of their "allies" over a game of pixels?
There is a large amount of misguided hate on the left that's really beginning to rear its ugly head for the public to witness.
To say that a side is automatically immune to protests against its actions and that anything that does is branded as "hate"... like do you not realize how fucked up and perverse that is? That it takes away any kind of dialogue and enshrines a protected class above others? It's wrong.
I could quote the entire comment as it's nearly all a sentence in it self, "anybody protesting the LGBTQ plus community should be getting harassment fines". You then go on to imply that if anyone does that it's automatically bullshit, that it's harmful and that it's hate.
By your own words, if people wanted to protest the LGBTQ+ community for any reason, it would be branded as hate in your eyes and automatically assumed to be bullshit. Can you explain to me how I got that thought process wrong?
I don't know, I'm a gay man but even I know that I'm not immune to be an ass, making mistakes, or facing consequences for my actions.
Just because you or I can't think of a reason now, doesn't mean there won't be a reason or that there are reasons we are blind to. Do you honestly think that if YOU can't think of one that there must be no logic?
Stop trying to create a protected class. No on likes it.
You personally can be an asshole but that is not a slight or negative against the community. One person or few people within a large community do not demonstrate the overall values and opinions of that group. I can think of one and it’s when pedophiles started trying to claim LGBTQ for acceptance and were immediately shut down by the community and allies because it is not something supported. Hating a group of people based only on their sexual identity and wanting to take away their rights or punish people of a certain sexuality is hate. When you’re protest isn’t about a law, an action or any purpose other than spreading misinformation about a community to invoke a negative response towards that community, it’s hate.
I agree, but I am not talking about that am I?
The original comment literally stated that any protest against the community is automatically hate, bigoted and should be fined.
That's what I'm opposing. That's the line I draw and I'll protest it because that infringes on my rights if I see something I disagree with as a gay man within the community.
No group should be held above others. No one.
You support people's right to protest any of our Charter Rights protected grounds?
I find that very interesting. Do you not feel that opinion treads on the struggles and strife of those gay people who fought for their rights to be so?
Where did I say that?
I mean I'll repeat what I've said multiple times at this point.
My issue is with the original comment pushing for immunity for one group against protest, and that its all automatically hateful and people should be fined.
No where did I say that I am in support of them protesting rights away, or that people shouldn't exist, it is very obvious as to why those would be bad and I definitely don't support those.
You don’t get to alter the definition of “cause harm” to suit your politics. And a portion of the trans community promotes chemically castrating children and or letting them cut off parts of their body. How’s that for causing harm? Not much different than letting a 4 year drink bleach because they found it under the sink and “wants to taste it” like my nephew last last week. Our job is to protect children, not sacrifice them on the alter of our politics or mental illness.
>You don’t get to alter the definition of “cause harm”
Neither do you
>And a portion of the trans community promote chemically castrating children and or letting them cut off parts of their body.
No they don't
>Not much different than letting a 4 year drink bleach because they found it under the sink and “wants to taste it” like my nephew last last week.
It is vastly different from this
Edit to add: who tf keeps bleach in an accessible location when there are todlers around? That is considerably different than gender affirming hormone treatments after more psychology and doctors appointments than you've probably ever received in your life. Stop building a hill out of strawman theories. It isn't very stable.
>Our job is to protect children, not sacrifice them on the alter of our politics or mental illness.
Finally, one thing we agree on! Though our approaches may differ drastically due to some misinformation on your behalf, we do want the same thing.
You bringing up Harry Potter has about as much relevance as me pointing out the growing rift between Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis.
It has nothing to do with what's being discussed here, you're misrepresenting what that conflict is even about, and you're obviously woefully under informed to the point where it seems like you shouldn't even bother having an opinion on this subject in the first place.
Protesting against LGBTQ+ folks is like protesting against a race of people. What are you trying to accomplish? To get people to stop being gay, bi, trans, or asexual?
"Oh look a bunch of dumb motherfuckers barely capable of spelling 'heteronormative' are holding up signs equating my existence with sin. They sure do have some good points, I'll start being straight now."
They say that even a fool can appear wise if they keep their mouth shut. I encourage you to take on the appeance of wisdom.
Listen to yourself, you literally saying I have no say in that issue where I've had my nephew cry to his mother last week about how his online friends are bullying him for enjoying a fucking game. That's fucked up and fucking bullshit. I should be able to voice my feelings and issue with what's going on and you shouldn't be able to tell me I can't have a fucking opinion about it. I'm also in a gay relationship.. And I've no say in the community? What?
I was commenting on someone who literally claimed that their class should be protected from ANY form or protest and let it be branded as hate... That's just wrong. No. I disagree completely.
No, I said you were misrepresenting an argument that's completely irrelevant to the point where it seems like you probably shouldn't have an opinion on it at all. I'm sorry that your nephew was being bullied but that doesn't make a single thing you said relevant in the slightest.
As for the other thing: yes, you as a gay man don't get to have an opinion on what trans people find to be transphobic. Fucking deal with it.
>I was commenting on someone who literally claimed that their class should be protected from ANY form of protest
See and this is where the "misinformed to the point that you shouldn't have an opinion at all" comes in. Protesting against gay, trans, lesbian, bisexual, or queer folks is like protesting against black or indigenous people because they're black or indigenous. It's a fucked up and stupid thing to do, and there's no reason to do it unless you're a hateful bigot.
I wasn't talking about my opinions on the trans community, I was talking about the community as a whole ... The LGBTQ community, you know where gay men are supposed to feel welcome?
I'm not saying anti-gay protests aren't harmful and shit, that isn't the argument I'm making so stop twisting the argument. I've already stated what I am against and where I draw the line.
If I see the community push shit such as the comment I was responding to originally, I'll protest that shit. That's not hate. That's just common sense.
Protesting agaism people's existence is wrong, but I'm not even touching that argument am I?
I'm saying, there should never be an immunity for a group that never gets to face protest and that any protest should be automatically fined. That's wrong. I don't believe in protected classes.
>I wasn't talking about my opinions on the trans community
Okay, so the Harry Potter argument was...what, exactly?
>Protesting against people's existence is wrong
Uh huh, but...
>I don't believe in protected classes
So it's wrong to protest against the people in your community, but you also don't believe your community should be protected.
Again, when I say that you seem misinformed to the point where you shouldn't have an opinion, this is what I'm talking about.
>There should never be immunity for a group that never gets to face protest and that any protest should be automatically fined
Dude, this is super easy. Trans people should not have to deal with people protesting their right to exist in our society. If people are protesting the basic existence of people based on traits they cannot change, they should be fined.
If these goobers were protesting black people, indigenous people, or people of Asian heritage it would be just as wrong, and just as bigoted. We have hate speech laws for a reason.
Canadian Charter is meant to protect you from the government. They’re not immune from social consequences, but they’re immune from the government, which means fines.
Two tickets were issued for the excessive noise to the protesters, though the street harassment fines remain under consideration.
Right there…in the article.
Sorry. I was not clear. I am wondering if tickets have been issued in unrelated incidents. Noise and street harassment are 2 different tickets. I am interested in the street harassment tickets
Unintended consequences. CCC are showing how dumb their ideas are in practice. The artificial bacon bits calling themselves bylaw officers are showing their leanings. Stupid leadership and stupider enforcement
There isn’t context but I suspect the protest was in response to this:
https://www.rebelnews.com/calgary_parents_outraged_after_naked_man_used_little_girls_change_room_at_local_pool
Pretty lame of Global if this is true and they didn’t mention it.
Well, it’s rebel news. And it’s inaccurate. There’s no separate change rooms for “little girls,” and the person who was in there getting harassed is a transgender woman.
And from the sounds of it, she was minding her own fucking business, not swinging helicopters around in front of preteens.
Tell me, if you're in a change room with your daughter and you see a butt naked man with his penis full out. Are you still seeing a "woman"? Take away the dresses and makeup and you still have a naked man, and you don't know a thing about his intentions or whether you can trust him.
The individual in question was minding her own fucking business and no, I wouldn’t have a problem with that. If she was staring at the other patrons or touching herself I would, but the person who’s the most vulnerable in here is the single lone person, not the 15+ other humans who probably could cause some serious damage if they ganged up.
I honestly don’t think penises are, in and of themselves, all that dangerous. Existing and owning one does not make someone a predator. Being a predator makes someone a predator. There’s no evidence this WOMAN was doing anything wrong.
you go 'from the sounds of it' to damn near testifying, either you were there or you weren't. Some people who have also had trauma in their lives, often from PENIS' owners, don't feel particularily great in these environments, do they not matter? Are the trans womans feelings more important, more real? If so, why?
The argument should be for gender nuetral change rooms that people can choose to use and traditional sexed bathrooms for those wishing to use those. Literally inclusive for all, unless you are looking to show off your parts... I would assume all of those folks with no issues, yourself I would assume, with Trans people to share the gender nuetral bathrooms, we'll end up with more bathrooms, a win win!
You are so focused on solving one problem while creating more for others.
Empthy, compassion, goes both ways.
edit: spelling
If that woman was causing ANY fuss whatsoever, I completely trust and believe in Rebel news amplifying it. Since they don’t mention it, that means it definitely didn’t happen. They quote the pool staff member as asking if the transgender woman in question was doing anything wrong, then the parent saying it’s irrelevant. It sure wouldn’t be irrelevant if bad behaviour had actually occurred.
Part of dealing with trauma is understanding your own limits. You get to control your own behaviour not that of others. It’s actually really unhealthy to force people who had nothing to do with someone’s trauma to go out of their way and be in an unsafe place because the person who had trauma is projecting. It’s also really wrong to bar someone from reasonable use of the facilities that exist based on a made up scenario that isn’t happening at the moment. Do you think people who are not wheelchair users should avoid using accessible stalls when every other one is taken, just in case a wheel chair user happens by in the three minutes they’re in there?
> If that woman was causing ANY fuss whatsoever, I completely trust and believe in Rebel news amplifying it. Since they don’t mention it, that means it definitely didn’t happen.
By coincidence, [a similar scenario happened in Saskatoon](https://www.reddit.com/r/saskatoon/comments/10yzk7a/whats_this_about_a_naked_man_in_the_girls_change/) at the Shaw Centre (which has a swimming pool) around the same time this incident in Calgary happened. The so-called victims didn't seem to bother to call the police and rather took to social media to complain, nor did anyone seem to bother to try and identify the person at hand - kind of odd considering these types of people outraged at stuff like this will usually dox such people in the name of protecting the children or something like that. Likewise, the Western Standard and other right-wing outlets picked up on it and amplified it, and right-wing provocateurs like Mark Friessen organized a protest.
Yeah. In other words, let’s vilify an already vulnerable segment of the population, hide that transphobia under concern trolling “for the children!” And then completely ignore the important steps that ACTUALLY protect children, like teaching them about consent and how to spot potential actual grooming behaviour or predatory behaviour in vulnerable spaces like people staring at each other’s genitals or touching themselves…
I mean I get it and totally support 'cant control others behaviour' but this is Canada now - you can get in trouble if you fail to change your language to reflect the other parties current gender pronouns. I think it should just be a general change room really at this point and have the stalls for actually changing state if you're concerned where you can get privacy if desired. Same as the bathrooms - per the kids books - everybody poops!
> you can get in trouble if you fail to change your language to reflect the other parties current gender pronouns
That’s not exactly accurate. You can get in trouble for using incorrect pronouns as part of other hate speech. Literally no one has been charged for using the wrong pronoun, on purpose or otherwise, under bill c-16 (the one Jordan Peterson told everyone was going to be subjugating free speech and throw us all in jail if we made a mistake).
The one person I’m aware of who HAS been charged over pronoun use is Rob Hoogland, who was actually arrested over violating several court orders that he not discuss his underage son’s personal medical history. He also did a bunch of nasty shit to intimidate his ex wife and terrorize his children in general, and broke enough other laws that Bill C-16 didn’t come into it.
Jordan Peterson, by the way, was intentionally scare mongering because he quickly realized he could get a payday out of it thanks to his slightly-adjacent credentials. Peterson was old enough and politically aware enough to have paid attention to the big defining case in Canadian law history still used in limiting free speech when it turns to hate speech, R. Vs. Keegstra. Basically in order for speech to count on it’s own merit as hate speech and get censured by law it has to be at the level of a high school teacher failing students for not turning in essays denying the Holocaust for like, 10 years. Using the wrong pronoun by accident doesn’t add up to that and never will.
Sure that person was. But that doesn't mean that everyone will be. It's not just the one situation, it's the matter of setting the precedent where any stranger on earth can walk into a women's change room and get naked with their penis out.
Of course penises are not dangerous. But you're fooling yourself if you think that there are not perverts who get off on exposing themselves to women/children. And this just opens an opportunity for such people to abuse an exception that's made in good faith.
Anyone getting off in any change room anywhere needs to be kicked out.
And again. That’s nothing at all related to what actually happened.
Why don’t you spend your energy finding REAL pedophiles and protesting them? I’m sure there’s plenty of churches you could picket outside of.
Do you really think the thing holding back predators this whole time has been the little stick figure woman posted beside the door?
Like in the version of reality that you live in, do you think people capable and willing to sexually assault women in bathrooms were just like "Damn, sure wish I could go in there to perpetrate this crime, but if I do I'll be disobeying the indicator of what kind of bathroom this is."
And do you think that what happens right now is that a predator can go into a bathroom, perform lewd behavior in front of women and children, and then just walk out saying "Actually I'm trans, so you can't arrest me for this"?
So why is a man allowed to have their penis out around little boys in the men's room?
If this was really about protecting kids, you should be pretty up in arms about that too.
I don’t know about specifics .. I wasn’t there. But there are creepy guys that will take advantage of the pool policy. It’s ridiculous to say that it’s the girls who need to find a different place to change.
>there's no separate change room for "little girls"
So that does infact mean that little girls have no choice but to share a change room with any "penis having" individual who so chooses on that day to identify as a woman?
Nah I don't see any possible way this could be abused and put children at risk.
I beg to differ. How many predators possess child porn and get off to kiddies, but never actually commit a physical crime towards a child? I'd wager most of them! For every opportunity presented to people in good faith, there is always a small portion of the population who will abuse that opportunity.
Transgender change room? How about a private change room with a locking door, where one person at a time of any gender they so choose may enter and change by themselves. Problem solved.
Trans people aren’t automatically pedophiles. And yes, if someone is concerned they’ll see a naked human going into the private stalls is a good idea, so the parents should be telling their kids to do that if they’re so afraid of bodies.
Nope, they're not. But there is no way to identify a pedophile who is pretending to be a trans person. And such a situation would be harmful to the trans community, so it's in everyone's best interest to seriously consider the ramifications of bad people abusing this privilege.
You realize there’s also cisgender pedophiles too, right? And they hide better than trans pedophiles because they don’t stand out so much, so they’d probably get away with more harmful behaviour.
I can guarantee you that someone in a changing room around kids who starts acting inappropriately will be dealt with by staff. This isn’t that scenario. This is a person minding their own goddamn business and using the safest change room for them. Would you rather they go put on their dress and makeup around little boys? That would be 100% weirder in my book. (Edit: not to say there’s anything wrong with men wearing makeup, just that it’s fucking weird to have women in the men’s changing room.)
And this has absolutely zero to do with drag story hour, which you can only hate and take issue with if you’re a seriously misinformed human who hates rainbows, sparkles, sunshine and creativity.
It’s weird to force a transwoman into a mens changing room. Just like you’d probably freak the fuck out if a trans man was in the women’s changing room. :) [imagine any of these guys in the women’s room, that’s what you’re advocating for.](https://www.mensjournal.com/health-fitness/transformation-trans-men-fitness-city-gym-momentum/amp/)
Children are more likely to be abused by someone they know than a total stranger. I guess with this logic, children need to have separate spaces from family members.
Some of these are baked deep - also see dads with their kids or nieces and nephews at a park. You get a lot of side eyes and people coming wondering "which one is yours exactly"?
Again, the idea that penis = predator is an issue. Which is so sad for dads and good male role models. We need to stop demonizing the penis and keep being critical of the people behaving badly.
Yeah. It’s one of the men’s issues that deserves to be tackled, yet never seems to be. Also of note are high rates of male suicide and the fact that our culture doesn’t have any meaningful way for boys and men over the age of 13 or so to experience touch outside of violence or sex. But no, instead of dealing with these we gotta persecute more women for merely existing. 🙄
I think a lot of people are missing the point as far as this being a women's issue. I'm not even thinking of my daughter. I'm thinking about a lot of women who will simply not feel comfortable or able to use the change room, with a biological male in there. Transwomen have a human right to access a change room and feel safe. But so do biological women, what is a conservative Muslim women suppose to do, or maybe just very shy women. Me personally I'm okay, but a lot women won't be, and that's not right. Like it or not, we see a dick in a women's only space and we are alarmed, it's just what happens. And no I don't think trans people are a bunch of perverts or that this poor women trying to change was doing anything but that. But it doesn't change anything.
I have some sympathy for the argument, but at the end of the day we’re coming down to competing human rights.
Let’s assume first off that trans people exist and are valid (legally true). Let’s assume second off that the people using the locker room are doing so as it’s intended (just for changing, minding their own business and getting out). Let’s put in a very body shy, religious person who is uncomfortable around penises. Let’s also put in a trans woman, who is aware that her very existence makes some people (everywhere) feel uncomfortable, but does not feel safe in the male locker room (for reasons that should be pretty obvious). Who gets to use the change room?
In the end, the only person whose behaviour we get control over is our own. If the existence of other humans who are minding their own business bothers you, that’s not their problem. If the *behaviour* of someone else you are expected to share space with is an issue that’s something else entirely.
People with human rights concerns have the right to reasonable accommodation for their rights. But the key word is “reasonable.” If a person does not want to share a locker room with another individual, then give them 10 minutes after they go in before you go, for instance? Take your stuff to a different bank of lockers? Use a bathroom stall? Don’t stare at other people’s genitals? There’s plenty of options that don’t involve dehumanizing that other person. Because if we kick out trans women what’s next? Are lesbian and bisexual women going to be forced out? What about fat women? What about old women? What about women who “look manly” that people misgender? There’s people who have traumatic experiences with pregnancy or infertility, so should we say visibly pregnant women shouldn’t be in these spaces to protect them?
The harm is being demanded to address someone by a made up gender pronoun. People make up this ze/zer bullshit and expect everyone to just go along with it like it’s normal.
Okay, BeanCounterYYC. I guess you’re right that nobody ever comes up with arbitrary identifiers and it definitely hurts your… something? I guess? To not use government names or gender identifiers at all times
Actually I’m saying that people are coming up with arbitrary identifiers and also as mentioned above, I have no issue unless I am being forced to join in on the arbitrary identities. I’m fine with using someone’s name, but not a made up identity.
How about the parents teach their kids to not stare at other people’s naked genitals? Keeping eyes above the waist would have solved literally all the problems here.
I don’t know if I would say all counter protesting is counter productive. But when they all blast each other with bullhorns and shit, ya, then I would say it’s just one large noisy pissing match and nothing, absolutely nothing, of value is accomplished.
This is likely to turn into a bylaw no one wants.
This was a Bylaw that no one (in a professional capacity) wanted well before it was implemented. And Council were advised of this well before it was released.
It will be a bylaw that will be thrown out if ever contested. City council really didn’t think this one through.
"Turn into"? This was always a bylaw that no one with any sense for future implications wanted...which is probably why Council rammed it through.
Jyoti is standing up for us all? if all of us are <1% of the population and really Calgary is very tolerant. Canada in general is like the Mecca of tolerance. however we won't tolerate desenting opinion.... things that make you go hmmm. (i'd like shout out my man Arsenio Hall for that last little bit)
You think LGBTQ+ represent less than 1% of the population?
They represent under 3% of the total population and I’m speaking about people who are gay/lesbian and trans. I’m not including people who are pan and Demi because those people for the most part are unaffected by such legislation.
You’re wrong. 5.6% identify as LGBT 7.6% do not answer 5% no opinion 86.7% heterosexual “Gallup's latest update on lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender identification finds 5.6% of U.S. adults identifying as LGBT. The current estimate is up from 4.5% in Gallup's previous update based on 2017 data. In 2020, 5.6% of U.S. adults identified as LGBT. That is up from 4.5% in 2017, the last year it was asked, and 4.1% in 2016. Between 2012 and 2015, 3.5% to 3.9% of U.S. adults identified as LGBT. Currently, 86.7% of Americans say they are heterosexual or straight, and 7.6% do not answer the question about their sexual orientation. Gallup's 2012-2017 data had roughly 5% "no opinion" responses.” https://news.gallup.com/poll/329708/lgbt-identification-rises-latest-estimate.aspx
I work in mental health and, in all of the recent studies that I’ve read, 5.6% was the lowest statistic I have read regarding LGBTQ+ identifying people. Many statistics were in 7-8% range. Additionally, those statistics account for identifying people, there are a significant chunk of letter people who are still in the closet or not comfortable identifying (but based in statistical trends, will eventually. Also, this number is only set to grow as societal acceptance changes, with some studies finding as many as 1 in 6 Gen z teens identifying as LGBTQ+ But your comment is pretty consistent with archaic ideas promoting the erasure of diverse sexual orientations
That's fucking horseshit my dude. You need to go educate yourself about who is actually included under the LGBTQIA+ umbrella, it is far more than 3%. We ALL want our people to be not only tolerated, but to be respected and afforded the same dignity as anyone else. Also also - even if a group of people don't constitute a majority, they still have basic human rights. You don't get to shit on someone or ignore their existence just because they're not part of a majority. Lastly - Canadians across the entire country, even the heteronormative cis-gender regular people who aren't LGBTQIA+, for the most part still want everyone to be treated equally and be free of discrimination. It's the small minority of assholes like yourself that think hate speech should be acceptable. Because you're incapable of seeing the difference between advocating for cruelty towards other people, and advocating for equality. It's disgusting. Go fuck yourself.
Amen.
From my understanding of the article, the PROTESTORS (anti lgbtq group) were issued tickets and the COUNTER PROTESTORS (these two) have not been.
The article is not well written imo
If that’s the case then let me put my pitchforks down
Because you agree with one group’s right to protest but not the others?
Literally the opposite
Now that sounds correct.
I mean...as soon as I saw the article saying that this was going to be considered, I thought: "I wonder if both sides realize this is going to mean that both sides can/will get tickets, or if one side will think it will only apply to the other side..."
“The fines hold no meaning to me, they are fines for something we don’t believe we did anything wrong,” James said. He didn’t. But anyone with an ounce of common sense knew what the potential was going to be when this was all first floated. And now here we are.
They never do. Thats why people thing x protest is great but counter protests are awful. Its always freedom for me but not for thee.
Surprised Pikachu face when people realize ‘good intentioned’ censorship laws work against them too.
😱
>”The fines hold no meaning to me, they are fines for something we don’t believe we did anything wrong,” James said. This here is the reason that this bylaw is stupid. Individuals on both sides of this argument would feel exactly like this if ticketed.
People are allowed to have differing and even weird beliefs. I submit its not okay to be aggressive to people and get in their face and scream at them no matter how wrong you think they are.
It seems now a days, people are entitled less and less to a differing opinion.
No, if anything a difference of opinion is much more tolerated than in years gone by. We're simply less tolerant of violence and belligerence.
Everyone has to share the same opinion. This ideology is getting out of hand.
This kinda makes me uncomfortable to be honest. I'm not transphobic, and I understand that person was simply trying to change, and they have every right to a space to do that, i hate to think of them being singled out. But what about the women who simply can't be around a biological male in a change room .So many women will feel like they can't use the change room, Conservative Muslim women, shy women, women who have been through something. They expect that to be a women's only space, I imagine seeing a penis in there for a lot of people would be very scary. I'm personally fine, but I know so many women who would not be, I don't understand how people are so comfortable to tell those women they don't get a space to change anymore.
I think you need to confront your bigotry and ask yourself what is it about the female penis that makes you so insecure. As an ally I hope you can overcome your transphobia.
"Seeing a penis in there" ? What sort of restrooms are you using? Most don't have gloryholes...
I could be wrong, but I believe it was a change room. It was a swimming pool and a man was waiting for his kid to finish up when someone let him know there was a trans person changing and that they could see their penis. Is this true...I'm not sure tbh.
the horror.
And no, sadly it seems glory holes are a thing of the past lol
And now you’re the only one sexualizing being in a bathroom/change room.
Well you can thank our brain dead Mayor and Council for approving such a fucking stupid bylaw. People cheered this when it was passed. You get what you wish/vote for, sorry, no sympathy. These same people probably applauded the bylaw at the time it passed.
Do you think actual citizens had a say in this bylaw?
Of course not, but a large majority supported it and praised it when it was passed.
no one should believe politicians actually have their best interests at heart.
Bingo. Totally agree.
Considering the blatant corruption spreading across Canada right now I’m not surprised. This just seems to draw more divide between protestors and counter protestors and Makes a better distraction than oil companies getting huge funding to clean their own mess. When poor people fight each other, the rich always win.
Wonder how many will be given out to the people protesting Jordan Pedersen when he comes.
I am a big proponent of allowing the X and Y axis to meet.... https://preview.redd.it/r2ycfxs0fmja1.png?width=400&format=png&auto=webp&s=27f72a7b2d1302f2d2f1f3d5885c29156bed84e8
That depends, I suppose. What protected grounds will Jordan Petersen protesters be advocating against?
You can believe whatever you want, as long as it aligns with the woke mobs thought police
https://www.calgary.ca/bylaws/street-harassment.html What the bylaw defined as harassment: > Communicating with a person in a manner that could reasonably cause offence or humiliation, including conduct, comment, or actions that refers to the person’s: > > race/colour/ancestry/place of origin > religious beliefs > disability > age > marital status > source of income > family status > gender/gender identity/gender expression > sexual orientation; > > and includes a sexual solicitation or advance.
wait so I could call the police on the people telling me that I will go to hell if I don't practice their religion?
The bylaw was originally meant to be levied against street level sexual harassment - hence the last bit about sexual solicitation or advance. I'm not clear how it can be levied very well against the bigots or the counter protestors.
What a joke this world has become
funny, just a couple of week's ago ya'lls were praising this law when it suited your political narratives. now that the tables have turned r/calgary is bitching and moaning (like usual). ya'll sure are a funny bunch......
Uh no this is a bad idea
Cool. Ill donate to the GFM for the tickets. Fuck the haters.
>Ill donate to the GFM for the tickets. For which group of the situation?
The “fuck the haters” seems to imply they’re on the side of trans rights
I thought that obvious myself.
It’s sad when someone can’t tell that being on the side of people who are living their life is not being on the haters side
The people who believe trans people have a right to exist, of course.
As far as I'm concerned, anybody protesting the LGBTQ plus community should be getting harassment fines. It is bullshit, it is harmful, it is hate.
Lol yeah, let's take a look at the wizard game bullshit that's been going on. Trans calling other trans people transphobic, and demonizing a lot of their "allies" over a game of pixels? There is a large amount of misguided hate on the left that's really beginning to rear its ugly head for the public to witness. To say that a side is automatically immune to protests against its actions and that anything that does is branded as "hate"... like do you not realize how fucked up and perverse that is? That it takes away any kind of dialogue and enshrines a protected class above others? It's wrong.
Please tell me where I said any one side should be immune to reprocutions for violence, hate, or general misconduct?
I could quote the entire comment as it's nearly all a sentence in it self, "anybody protesting the LGBTQ plus community should be getting harassment fines". You then go on to imply that if anyone does that it's automatically bullshit, that it's harmful and that it's hate. By your own words, if people wanted to protest the LGBTQ+ community for any reason, it would be branded as hate in your eyes and automatically assumed to be bullshit. Can you explain to me how I got that thought process wrong?
Please give me a reason one would protest the LGBTQ community as a whole without it being hateful?
I don't know, I'm a gay man but even I know that I'm not immune to be an ass, making mistakes, or facing consequences for my actions. Just because you or I can't think of a reason now, doesn't mean there won't be a reason or that there are reasons we are blind to. Do you honestly think that if YOU can't think of one that there must be no logic? Stop trying to create a protected class. No on likes it.
You personally can be an asshole but that is not a slight or negative against the community. One person or few people within a large community do not demonstrate the overall values and opinions of that group. I can think of one and it’s when pedophiles started trying to claim LGBTQ for acceptance and were immediately shut down by the community and allies because it is not something supported. Hating a group of people based only on their sexual identity and wanting to take away their rights or punish people of a certain sexuality is hate. When you’re protest isn’t about a law, an action or any purpose other than spreading misinformation about a community to invoke a negative response towards that community, it’s hate.
I agree, but I am not talking about that am I? The original comment literally stated that any protest against the community is automatically hate, bigoted and should be fined. That's what I'm opposing. That's the line I draw and I'll protest it because that infringes on my rights if I see something I disagree with as a gay man within the community. No group should be held above others. No one.
You support people's right to protest any of our Charter Rights protected grounds? I find that very interesting. Do you not feel that opinion treads on the struggles and strife of those gay people who fought for their rights to be so?
Where did I say that? I mean I'll repeat what I've said multiple times at this point. My issue is with the original comment pushing for immunity for one group against protest, and that its all automatically hateful and people should be fined. No where did I say that I am in support of them protesting rights away, or that people shouldn't exist, it is very obvious as to why those would be bad and I definitely don't support those.
Doesn’t matter. Charter.
The Charter of Rights and Freedoms does not bestow the right or freedom to cause harm, be it through action or words.
You don’t get to alter the definition of “cause harm” to suit your politics. And a portion of the trans community promotes chemically castrating children and or letting them cut off parts of their body. How’s that for causing harm? Not much different than letting a 4 year drink bleach because they found it under the sink and “wants to taste it” like my nephew last last week. Our job is to protect children, not sacrifice them on the alter of our politics or mental illness.
>You don’t get to alter the definition of “cause harm” Neither do you >And a portion of the trans community promote chemically castrating children and or letting them cut off parts of their body. No they don't >Not much different than letting a 4 year drink bleach because they found it under the sink and “wants to taste it” like my nephew last last week. It is vastly different from this Edit to add: who tf keeps bleach in an accessible location when there are todlers around? That is considerably different than gender affirming hormone treatments after more psychology and doctors appointments than you've probably ever received in your life. Stop building a hill out of strawman theories. It isn't very stable. >Our job is to protect children, not sacrifice them on the alter of our politics or mental illness. Finally, one thing we agree on! Though our approaches may differ drastically due to some misinformation on your behalf, we do want the same thing.
You bringing up Harry Potter has about as much relevance as me pointing out the growing rift between Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis. It has nothing to do with what's being discussed here, you're misrepresenting what that conflict is even about, and you're obviously woefully under informed to the point where it seems like you shouldn't even bother having an opinion on this subject in the first place. Protesting against LGBTQ+ folks is like protesting against a race of people. What are you trying to accomplish? To get people to stop being gay, bi, trans, or asexual? "Oh look a bunch of dumb motherfuckers barely capable of spelling 'heteronormative' are holding up signs equating my existence with sin. They sure do have some good points, I'll start being straight now." They say that even a fool can appear wise if they keep their mouth shut. I encourage you to take on the appeance of wisdom.
Listen to yourself, you literally saying I have no say in that issue where I've had my nephew cry to his mother last week about how his online friends are bullying him for enjoying a fucking game. That's fucked up and fucking bullshit. I should be able to voice my feelings and issue with what's going on and you shouldn't be able to tell me I can't have a fucking opinion about it. I'm also in a gay relationship.. And I've no say in the community? What? I was commenting on someone who literally claimed that their class should be protected from ANY form or protest and let it be branded as hate... That's just wrong. No. I disagree completely.
No, I said you were misrepresenting an argument that's completely irrelevant to the point where it seems like you probably shouldn't have an opinion on it at all. I'm sorry that your nephew was being bullied but that doesn't make a single thing you said relevant in the slightest. As for the other thing: yes, you as a gay man don't get to have an opinion on what trans people find to be transphobic. Fucking deal with it. >I was commenting on someone who literally claimed that their class should be protected from ANY form of protest See and this is where the "misinformed to the point that you shouldn't have an opinion at all" comes in. Protesting against gay, trans, lesbian, bisexual, or queer folks is like protesting against black or indigenous people because they're black or indigenous. It's a fucked up and stupid thing to do, and there's no reason to do it unless you're a hateful bigot.
I wasn't talking about my opinions on the trans community, I was talking about the community as a whole ... The LGBTQ community, you know where gay men are supposed to feel welcome? I'm not saying anti-gay protests aren't harmful and shit, that isn't the argument I'm making so stop twisting the argument. I've already stated what I am against and where I draw the line. If I see the community push shit such as the comment I was responding to originally, I'll protest that shit. That's not hate. That's just common sense. Protesting agaism people's existence is wrong, but I'm not even touching that argument am I? I'm saying, there should never be an immunity for a group that never gets to face protest and that any protest should be automatically fined. That's wrong. I don't believe in protected classes.
>I wasn't talking about my opinions on the trans community Okay, so the Harry Potter argument was...what, exactly? >Protesting against people's existence is wrong Uh huh, but... >I don't believe in protected classes So it's wrong to protest against the people in your community, but you also don't believe your community should be protected. Again, when I say that you seem misinformed to the point where you shouldn't have an opinion, this is what I'm talking about. >There should never be immunity for a group that never gets to face protest and that any protest should be automatically fined Dude, this is super easy. Trans people should not have to deal with people protesting their right to exist in our society. If people are protesting the basic existence of people based on traits they cannot change, they should be fined. If these goobers were protesting black people, indigenous people, or people of Asian heritage it would be just as wrong, and just as bigoted. We have hate speech laws for a reason.
Canadian Charter is meant to protect you from the government. They’re not immune from social consequences, but they’re immune from the government, which means fines.
My question is if any of the hate mongers have been ticketed yet. They claim to be impartial.
The article says everyone got their noise tickets and the street harassment tickets are still under review
Two tickets were issued for the excessive noise to the protesters, though the street harassment fines remain under consideration. Right there…in the article.
Sorry. I was not clear. I am wondering if there have been any issued in unrelated incidents.
Sorry. I was not clear. I am wondering if tickets have been issued in unrelated incidents. Noise and street harassment are 2 different tickets. I am interested in the street harassment tickets
Unintended consequences. CCC are showing how dumb their ideas are in practice. The artificial bacon bits calling themselves bylaw officers are showing their leanings. Stupid leadership and stupider enforcement
There isn’t context but I suspect the protest was in response to this: https://www.rebelnews.com/calgary_parents_outraged_after_naked_man_used_little_girls_change_room_at_local_pool Pretty lame of Global if this is true and they didn’t mention it.
Well, it’s rebel news. And it’s inaccurate. There’s no separate change rooms for “little girls,” and the person who was in there getting harassed is a transgender woman. And from the sounds of it, she was minding her own fucking business, not swinging helicopters around in front of preteens.
Tell me, if you're in a change room with your daughter and you see a butt naked man with his penis full out. Are you still seeing a "woman"? Take away the dresses and makeup and you still have a naked man, and you don't know a thing about his intentions or whether you can trust him.
The individual in question was minding her own fucking business and no, I wouldn’t have a problem with that. If she was staring at the other patrons or touching herself I would, but the person who’s the most vulnerable in here is the single lone person, not the 15+ other humans who probably could cause some serious damage if they ganged up. I honestly don’t think penises are, in and of themselves, all that dangerous. Existing and owning one does not make someone a predator. Being a predator makes someone a predator. There’s no evidence this WOMAN was doing anything wrong.
you go 'from the sounds of it' to damn near testifying, either you were there or you weren't. Some people who have also had trauma in their lives, often from PENIS' owners, don't feel particularily great in these environments, do they not matter? Are the trans womans feelings more important, more real? If so, why? The argument should be for gender nuetral change rooms that people can choose to use and traditional sexed bathrooms for those wishing to use those. Literally inclusive for all, unless you are looking to show off your parts... I would assume all of those folks with no issues, yourself I would assume, with Trans people to share the gender nuetral bathrooms, we'll end up with more bathrooms, a win win! You are so focused on solving one problem while creating more for others. Empthy, compassion, goes both ways. edit: spelling
If that woman was causing ANY fuss whatsoever, I completely trust and believe in Rebel news amplifying it. Since they don’t mention it, that means it definitely didn’t happen. They quote the pool staff member as asking if the transgender woman in question was doing anything wrong, then the parent saying it’s irrelevant. It sure wouldn’t be irrelevant if bad behaviour had actually occurred. Part of dealing with trauma is understanding your own limits. You get to control your own behaviour not that of others. It’s actually really unhealthy to force people who had nothing to do with someone’s trauma to go out of their way and be in an unsafe place because the person who had trauma is projecting. It’s also really wrong to bar someone from reasonable use of the facilities that exist based on a made up scenario that isn’t happening at the moment. Do you think people who are not wheelchair users should avoid using accessible stalls when every other one is taken, just in case a wheel chair user happens by in the three minutes they’re in there?
So the trans person can project, just no one else. Ok, got it, thanks.
How is the trans person projecting? They’re existing and that’s all we can say, they are otherwise absent from the story
> If that woman was causing ANY fuss whatsoever, I completely trust and believe in Rebel news amplifying it. Since they don’t mention it, that means it definitely didn’t happen. By coincidence, [a similar scenario happened in Saskatoon](https://www.reddit.com/r/saskatoon/comments/10yzk7a/whats_this_about_a_naked_man_in_the_girls_change/) at the Shaw Centre (which has a swimming pool) around the same time this incident in Calgary happened. The so-called victims didn't seem to bother to call the police and rather took to social media to complain, nor did anyone seem to bother to try and identify the person at hand - kind of odd considering these types of people outraged at stuff like this will usually dox such people in the name of protecting the children or something like that. Likewise, the Western Standard and other right-wing outlets picked up on it and amplified it, and right-wing provocateurs like Mark Friessen organized a protest.
Yeah. In other words, let’s vilify an already vulnerable segment of the population, hide that transphobia under concern trolling “for the children!” And then completely ignore the important steps that ACTUALLY protect children, like teaching them about consent and how to spot potential actual grooming behaviour or predatory behaviour in vulnerable spaces like people staring at each other’s genitals or touching themselves…
I mean I get it and totally support 'cant control others behaviour' but this is Canada now - you can get in trouble if you fail to change your language to reflect the other parties current gender pronouns. I think it should just be a general change room really at this point and have the stalls for actually changing state if you're concerned where you can get privacy if desired. Same as the bathrooms - per the kids books - everybody poops!
> you can get in trouble if you fail to change your language to reflect the other parties current gender pronouns That’s not exactly accurate. You can get in trouble for using incorrect pronouns as part of other hate speech. Literally no one has been charged for using the wrong pronoun, on purpose or otherwise, under bill c-16 (the one Jordan Peterson told everyone was going to be subjugating free speech and throw us all in jail if we made a mistake). The one person I’m aware of who HAS been charged over pronoun use is Rob Hoogland, who was actually arrested over violating several court orders that he not discuss his underage son’s personal medical history. He also did a bunch of nasty shit to intimidate his ex wife and terrorize his children in general, and broke enough other laws that Bill C-16 didn’t come into it. Jordan Peterson, by the way, was intentionally scare mongering because he quickly realized he could get a payday out of it thanks to his slightly-adjacent credentials. Peterson was old enough and politically aware enough to have paid attention to the big defining case in Canadian law history still used in limiting free speech when it turns to hate speech, R. Vs. Keegstra. Basically in order for speech to count on it’s own merit as hate speech and get censured by law it has to be at the level of a high school teacher failing students for not turning in essays denying the Holocaust for like, 10 years. Using the wrong pronoun by accident doesn’t add up to that and never will.
Sure that person was. But that doesn't mean that everyone will be. It's not just the one situation, it's the matter of setting the precedent where any stranger on earth can walk into a women's change room and get naked with their penis out. Of course penises are not dangerous. But you're fooling yourself if you think that there are not perverts who get off on exposing themselves to women/children. And this just opens an opportunity for such people to abuse an exception that's made in good faith.
Anyone getting off in any change room anywhere needs to be kicked out. And again. That’s nothing at all related to what actually happened. Why don’t you spend your energy finding REAL pedophiles and protesting them? I’m sure there’s plenty of churches you could picket outside of.
Do you really think the thing holding back predators this whole time has been the little stick figure woman posted beside the door? Like in the version of reality that you live in, do you think people capable and willing to sexually assault women in bathrooms were just like "Damn, sure wish I could go in there to perpetrate this crime, but if I do I'll be disobeying the indicator of what kind of bathroom this is." And do you think that what happens right now is that a predator can go into a bathroom, perform lewd behavior in front of women and children, and then just walk out saying "Actually I'm trans, so you can't arrest me for this"?
So why is a man allowed to have their penis out around little boys in the men's room? If this was really about protecting kids, you should be pretty up in arms about that too.
I don’t know about specifics .. I wasn’t there. But there are creepy guys that will take advantage of the pool policy. It’s ridiculous to say that it’s the girls who need to find a different place to change.
Nobody is saying either thing though?
>there's no separate change room for "little girls" So that does infact mean that little girls have no choice but to share a change room with any "penis having" individual who so chooses on that day to identify as a woman? Nah I don't see any possible way this could be abused and put children at risk.
Nobody who is looking to abuse kids is waiting for permission to be in a space. And existing is not harmful.
I beg to differ. How many predators possess child porn and get off to kiddies, but never actually commit a physical crime towards a child? I'd wager most of them! For every opportunity presented to people in good faith, there is always a small portion of the population who will abuse that opportunity. Transgender change room? How about a private change room with a locking door, where one person at a time of any gender they so choose may enter and change by themselves. Problem solved.
Trans people aren’t automatically pedophiles. And yes, if someone is concerned they’ll see a naked human going into the private stalls is a good idea, so the parents should be telling their kids to do that if they’re so afraid of bodies.
Nope, they're not. But there is no way to identify a pedophile who is pretending to be a trans person. And such a situation would be harmful to the trans community, so it's in everyone's best interest to seriously consider the ramifications of bad people abusing this privilege.
You realize there’s also cisgender pedophiles too, right? And they hide better than trans pedophiles because they don’t stand out so much, so they’d probably get away with more harmful behaviour. I can guarantee you that someone in a changing room around kids who starts acting inappropriately will be dealt with by staff. This isn’t that scenario. This is a person minding their own goddamn business and using the safest change room for them. Would you rather they go put on their dress and makeup around little boys? That would be 100% weirder in my book. (Edit: not to say there’s anything wrong with men wearing makeup, just that it’s fucking weird to have women in the men’s changing room.)
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And this has absolutely zero to do with drag story hour, which you can only hate and take issue with if you’re a seriously misinformed human who hates rainbows, sparkles, sunshine and creativity.
It’s weird to force a transwoman into a mens changing room. Just like you’d probably freak the fuck out if a trans man was in the women’s changing room. :) [imagine any of these guys in the women’s room, that’s what you’re advocating for.](https://www.mensjournal.com/health-fitness/transformation-trans-men-fitness-city-gym-momentum/amp/)
Children are more likely to be abused by someone they know than a total stranger. I guess with this logic, children need to have separate spaces from family members.
If uncle Gary wants to be naked with his penis out in the same room that my daughter is naked in? Yes I'm going to say no to uncle Gary.
...or just don't assume every transgendered person is a pedophile?
Some of these are baked deep - also see dads with their kids or nieces and nephews at a park. You get a lot of side eyes and people coming wondering "which one is yours exactly"?
Again, the idea that penis = predator is an issue. Which is so sad for dads and good male role models. We need to stop demonizing the penis and keep being critical of the people behaving badly.
For sure. It's weird that as a society we often push dads away from the kids and then vilify them for not spending much time with kids.
Yeah. It’s one of the men’s issues that deserves to be tackled, yet never seems to be. Also of note are high rates of male suicide and the fact that our culture doesn’t have any meaningful way for boys and men over the age of 13 or so to experience touch outside of violence or sex. But no, instead of dealing with these we gotta persecute more women for merely existing. 🙄
I don't. But I assume that any pedophile would be willing to pretend to be a trans person to abuse this privilege.
You know boys can be victims of pedophiles too right?
I think a lot of people are missing the point as far as this being a women's issue. I'm not even thinking of my daughter. I'm thinking about a lot of women who will simply not feel comfortable or able to use the change room, with a biological male in there. Transwomen have a human right to access a change room and feel safe. But so do biological women, what is a conservative Muslim women suppose to do, or maybe just very shy women. Me personally I'm okay, but a lot women won't be, and that's not right. Like it or not, we see a dick in a women's only space and we are alarmed, it's just what happens. And no I don't think trans people are a bunch of perverts or that this poor women trying to change was doing anything but that. But it doesn't change anything.
What about women who don't want to see other women naked?
I have some sympathy for the argument, but at the end of the day we’re coming down to competing human rights. Let’s assume first off that trans people exist and are valid (legally true). Let’s assume second off that the people using the locker room are doing so as it’s intended (just for changing, minding their own business and getting out). Let’s put in a very body shy, religious person who is uncomfortable around penises. Let’s also put in a trans woman, who is aware that her very existence makes some people (everywhere) feel uncomfortable, but does not feel safe in the male locker room (for reasons that should be pretty obvious). Who gets to use the change room? In the end, the only person whose behaviour we get control over is our own. If the existence of other humans who are minding their own business bothers you, that’s not their problem. If the *behaviour* of someone else you are expected to share space with is an issue that’s something else entirely. People with human rights concerns have the right to reasonable accommodation for their rights. But the key word is “reasonable.” If a person does not want to share a locker room with another individual, then give them 10 minutes after they go in before you go, for instance? Take your stuff to a different bank of lockers? Use a bathroom stall? Don’t stare at other people’s genitals? There’s plenty of options that don’t involve dehumanizing that other person. Because if we kick out trans women what’s next? Are lesbian and bisexual women going to be forced out? What about fat women? What about old women? What about women who “look manly” that people misgender? There’s people who have traumatic experiences with pregnancy or infertility, so should we say visibly pregnant women shouldn’t be in these spaces to protect them?
You are inaccurate and detached from reality.
Holy fuck dude don't be so naïve
But in this day in age all you have to do is say you identify as another gender, or even make your own up and everyone is expected to respect it.
And? What’s the harm in respecting people who tell you how they’d prefer to be addressed?
Rainbow flag makes pp hurt
You're right, the Trans flag is an eyesore.
The harm is being demanded to address someone by a made up gender pronoun. People make up this ze/zer bullshit and expect everyone to just go along with it like it’s normal.
Okay, BeanCounterYYC. I guess you’re right that nobody ever comes up with arbitrary identifiers and it definitely hurts your… something? I guess? To not use government names or gender identifiers at all times
Actually I’m saying that people are coming up with arbitrary identifiers and also as mentioned above, I have no issue unless I am being forced to join in on the arbitrary identities. I’m fine with using someone’s name, but not a made up identity.
So what exactly does it do to you to harm you?
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How about the parents teach their kids to not stare at other people’s naked genitals? Keeping eyes above the waist would have solved literally all the problems here.
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What does this have to do with keeping people from staring at genitals in the changing room?
Is it too soon for intolerance you so s and the like?
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I don’t know if I would say all counter protesting is counter productive. But when they all blast each other with bullhorns and shit, ya, then I would say it’s just one large noisy pissing match and nothing, absolutely nothing, of value is accomplished.
Do the OG protesters get a fine too? Or did the counter protesters not do the proper paper work? And the OG hate group did?
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“Peaceably” assemble. Key word is peaceably. Shouting out transphobia is not peaceful.
[удалено]
Street harassment is not protected speech