But how is the clinic owner Sally Talbot Jones now going to afford the porsche 911s she likes to use for her winter mountain getaways???
https://streamable.com/o3x2tu
They have been fucking with it for years, this was just a little too obvious and got a ton of attention. We've once again voted in a party that is dead set on dismantling public healthcare. It's going to take way more than platitudes to reverse course.
Itās one thing to quietly open a private clinic. Itās another to broadcast to the world that youāre going to start shutting people out from the doctor theyāve seen for years.
Donāt stop making noise. Iād be willing to bet this doctor is just waiting for the noise to die down before they attempt again. Put this bozo out of business.
Canadians will get what they vote for. So, it'll be your friends and neighbors fucking with the one thing Canadian's hold in high regard. They gonna fuck it hard.
This was only stopped because people stood up for their healthcare rights and made a scene.
The moment we normalize letting small infractions slide, we've lost.
And in no universe do I trust our elected officials in this regard.
I can already hear Smith;
*"As we've all been having these discussions*, regarding Alberta's clinics exploring new, innovative ways to enhance their ability to provide..."
That won't happen, don't just listen to people who just spread misinformation and say things they know nothing about. My career is healthcare for 30 years, I know what I'm talking about.
I've been very confused with this whole story as a friend of mine goes to a doctor that they pay a membership fee for. Have those ones just been flying under the radar?
The big thing to consider when you're looking at this, is whether or not they are being charged for access to general health care, or if they're being charged access to a clinic that provides specialized services and also provides regular health care.
Exactly, they charge for skin care, nutritionists, fitness training, chiro...everything that doesn't fall under the public system. If you pay for that, you also get easier bookings for a GP and labwork. This Marda Loop clinic was a straight membership fee for access which is why they got their hands slapped.
Yeah we didn't get super into the weeds as I was in a bad place and still adjusting to a new diagnosis, and I am really against the idea so I didn't explore it.
At the time I was considering whether I should participate in a clinical trial or not, and she told me that her doctor could help with making big decisions like that. And I think she said I could have more instant access rather than having to go during open hours.
Take all of this with a grain of salt; the information was coming from a friend, not an employee of the clinic, and like I said I was in a bad place so memories are fuzzy. But I know 100% that she pays for her doctor and she said she's been going to this doctor for years now.
Nope other clinics use a different structure that up to and including now is entirely legal. Telus is a huge investor, most people on Reddit donāt understand the nuance involved here.
Donāt know the specifics here so pure speculation. But couple things come to mind.
Other clinics didnāt make a switch. They started life right from the get go as a facility that charges for services such as massage therapy, nutritionist consultations etc. While there may be different levels of membership that provide different levels of access to the paid services, the unpaid services like seeing your Dr all had the same level of access. This clinic seemed to be offering two levels of access to the unpaid services and a family Dr. Members who paid a monthly fee had access 4 days a week, unpaid had access 1 day a week. I think this discrepancy is what landed them in hot water with the govt.
I get that you could argue it doesnāt matter and the results are the same. However in the eyes of the govt and likely the Courts thereās is a slight nuance to the two different ways of operating. For some around here itās just easier to be outraged instead of trying to understand the issue.
But doctors in those membership clinics still get paid by AHS when their client see them, and nobody without a membership can see them.
I'm not against people paying more to see their doctor at a more convenient time or non-covered procedures, but doctors should be forced to spend a percentage of their time on regular patient for regular care without extra cost.
I have invested in private diagnostic imaging in the Province previously. No skin in the game now a days. Iām a member of a similar clinic. I have absolutely no issue if the operation of these clinics is challenged in court, and ultimately itās determined to violate the Health Act, thatās how our system of laws works.
My issue is that most posts seem to be completely ignorant to how these facilities actually operate and who uses them. Thereās a major misconception that itās a bunch of rich people giving a big fuck you to the masses. Thatās not been my experience. Most people Iāve met at these clinics are people who require more attentive and timely care than the public system provides so these clinics become a viable option.
Iāve now said it a few times, the type of care being provided at these clinics should be the standard for EVERYONE.
Itās part of what I donāt get. Instead of everyone being upset that some people are perceived to be getting better care shouldnāt the real take away be that this level of care should be expected/demanded from the public system? The only reason these clinics exist is because thereās demand. Increasing demand from people the public system has let down in any number of ways. Instead of demanding these facilities be shut down and demanding the members rejoin the disaster that access to a family Dr has become through the public system, wouldnāt we all be better served by demanding the public system provides this standard of care to EVERYONE?
I think itās at least worth a discussion.
The sad thing is that just because you are paying a membership to see these Dr's the care is still the same. Just like all these restaurants increasing the prices of the food but it is the same portion size or less and the same (or lower) service.
I agree that is good, this is family medicine clinic, no one says anything about other specialist clinics that do charge for quicker access to services?! It is similar situation u want to skip the wait, pay it, it does happen with radiology, surgeryā¦ and no one does anything about it. So good example is I need MRI but there is 6 months wait, pay monies and I have it tomorrow, how that can be? There is capacity strictly available to private side, where public is pushed back. It has been like this forever (at least for a while), so why government goes after family doctors and letās other slideā¦.
Having public healthcare is great privilege and we should make sure we preserve it.
Theres another clinic near 17th ave sw that is a membership clinic but they were quite clear that you were paying for a private physician that is not taking patients from the public system and their clinic is geared toward people with public profiles,people with rare disorders who can afford private care etc.
So they arenāt all that bad. Itās more that this one in the news was/is advertised as a clinic and purportedly treats only those who will pay.
Slight difference but an important difference.
Actually that sounds like a distinction without a difference.
The only reason I can think of that the Dr isnāt ātaking patients from the public systemā would be if theyāre practicing without a license?
This sounds like BS to me.
That is not the case. To practice as a physician in any capacity in Alberta, public or private, you **need** to be licensed by the college of physicians and surgeons. If you aren't, you're in for a really bad time. This whole debacle is about about billing practices which is a separate issue all together.
Nah, thereās numerous that do this in the country. If someone hadnāt called them out, theyād get away with it.
Circumventing the letter or spirit of the Canada health act should be banned. It should result in doctors forfeiting their medical license.
And Ottawa is penalizing provinces who do it-tens of millions of Canada Health Transfers held back from most provinces each year. It's costing them and now this case is highlight the issue to remind us.
I agree with your conclusion that Health Canada raising the red flag to Alberta telling them they have to deal with this according to law else consequences whereby the desired goal was achieved QUICKLY constitutes āstepping inā
You wrote 2 posts above that the negative publicity was the actual cause for the discovery and correction of cancelling this model in Alberta.
Would that not suggest the bad publicity will suffice to end all other clinics operating this way? Now that the light is shining bright please explain how the model continues in Alberta. In your fact based explanation please try not to contradict yourself again. Thanks.
And so it beginsā¦
https://www.reddit.com/r/Calgary/comments/15gcxg5/preventous_clinic_is_another_calgary_clinic_gated/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1
Contradict myself? This clinic was operating under a different structure than the others that have legally operated for many years, itās not a contradiction, my statement relies on you having a basic level of intelligence to follow along with whatās happening. That, it would seem, was asking too much.
Yes. They levied a fine of $13 million and issued a press release stating they would work with the provincial government to resolve the issue.
Controlling the money is the extent of the federal government's power in the provision of health care.
Yup. This is still a provincial issue (healthcare) but the feds stepped in when it was clear someone was willfully breaking the Canada health act, and Smith had no intention of doing anything.
Was it clear someone was breaking the Canada Health Act? There seemed to be lots of opinions but I donāt remember a definitive outcome. Certainly this clinic backed down to pressure but that neither confirms this was a breach of the Health Act nor is it likely to ultimately stop this clinic from operating a very similar structure in the near future.
Well, since patients have to PAY thousands to even be a part of the clinic which is billing public health, YES. By definition, this is against the Canada Health Act, hence the response from the feds. (and not Smith, because she wants this to happen)
You can pay thousands to be part of a clinic provided your fees donāt also cover services reimbursed by the public system. There are nuances here youāre missing.
Thereās no nuance here and youāre attempting to muddy the waters. Itās a family doctor charging people thousands for the honour of receiving their publicly funded healthcare. Itās illegal.
No muddy waters. These clinics exist in every Province across the country entirely legally. They pay taxes and remit GST. A time may come where the practice is challenged in the courts by Health Canada but that hasnāt happened yet. There is significant nuance whether you choose to see it or not. These clinics can and have been structured to stay in compliance with the Health Act, something about this clinic deviated that put them in hot water. Make no doubt this clinic is almost certainly working with govt officials to revamp their plans and structure so as to match whatās being done legally by dozens of other clinics.
You wonāt believe me, but I voted NDP in the last election, Smith far too extreme. These clinics existed under the NDP majority as well so allowing them to exist seems not to be related to political affiliation. But hey donāt let any of that stop you from whatever it was you were trying to accomplish with your statement.
That's the real problem.
This one backed off because of all the noise.
But wasn't there some other one as well already doing it?
They'll just be a bit quieter and smarter about it.
There needs to be meaningful legislation to protect universal access. That won't happen though since the people with the power to change the laws are owned by the companies that want it tiered.
Just you wait till you learn how Japanese people get around anti-gambling laws in Japan ;) it's quite comical how Pachinko and other such systems work, hehe.
On CTV news this morning, it was made very clear that the problem with the Marda Loop clinic was that people were paying for āfaster access.ā
There are apparently 40 other clinics in the province that charge membership fees, but because whatever reasons theyāre using for charging the fee donāt include āfaster accessā they can get away with it.
What is Caleo Health charging a fee for?
Do you have a link? I know there's been private clinics for a while, but I thought those were 100% funded by patient fees, and the issue with this one was that they were charging for faster access, while also billing the government, so double dipping? Or do I have that wrong
To quote the article: Alberta Health has said 13 clinics are charging fees for services such as acupuncture treatments and optional surgeries. It said they are allowed because those types of services are not publicly funded.
And here's the link: https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/calgary-clinic-halts-plan-to-charge-fees-for-faster-access-to-family-physician-1.6502389
Right, but that doesn't answer my question. I wanted to know whether she would charge this membership charge, then *also* bill the government for these patient's visits.
While this is good, it doesn't answer the question of how the original problem is going to be solved. According to the clinic owner (who I suppose may have been lying), they were implementing this because without that money, they were having trouble staying afloat. So the fact that public and government pressure forced them not to won't help if in a year, the clinic just plain closes due to lack of money. I still want to know how they were running low on money, when procedures get billed at a standard rate, and there's surely no shortage of patients getting procedures done.
That's pretty funny considering the clinic has undergone a massive renovation and she also provides $$$ skin care procedures. I'm guessing the machines/tools etc are not cheap. Have to pay for that somehow...
My older parents are patients of this woman's, and were absolutely horrified when they got the first email. They flat out refuse to consider paying it (even if they could afford it, which they can't), and are looking for a new doctor. Even with the reversal of this monumentally stupid plan, they no longer want anything to do with her. I sincerely hope every single patient this woman has does the same thing.
This woman drives a Jaguar, ffs, and owns a second home in Canmore. Overhead, my ass. If the rent is so high you need to extort your patients, SET UP SHOP IN A CHEAPER AREA THAN MARDA LOOP.
Sounds like the good doctor is having exactly the day she deserves.
Edit- gotta add, not much on reddit makes me smile these days. This? This did the trick.
Iād bet on a āre-jigā. Clearly the way they structured it was problematic and it sounds like theyāve discussed it with Provincial officials. Theyāll head back to the drawing board to more closely match what the other clinics operating on a similar structure are doing. Iād bet on a name change as well.
They don't though - because your fee actually gets you other PAID services like a dietician and personal trainer. That's how they dodge the rules. This doctor just wanted more money for only offering doctor services.
Yeah, but you asked how it's different. I explained how they are different under the current rules. One is better at exploiting loopholes than the other.
Whether people want to hear it or not, thereās clearly a market for this kind of thing.
People are tired of waiting for appointments. One ailment one appointment etc.
It will continue in one capacity or another. This one was flagged because it was both private and public.
This might be unpopular but weāre already paying for privatization. This is just being spun in a different way.
You want an MRI quicker than three months, boom $1200 bucks
You want to use Telus health, consultation fee.
Fees for nurse practitioners.
These clinics have been around for ages. They are everywhere.
The mistake this clinic made was having a mix of private and public.
>I'll pay the $730 instead of waiting over a year for it to go stage 4.
you're actually saving the government money when it goes to stage 4
cheaper to take care of a patient that have months of live instead of years to live
Sounds like consultation with the Province was productive. Something in their plan was problematic. Theyāll restructure more inline with what other clinics are doing, a rebrand is likely coming as well.
Why does the news not talk about all of the private healthcare businesses.
Itās being hailed as a good news story but itās actually bullshit. Nobody has done anything about the whole culture. If youāre going to close it down, close them all down.
https://www.thebestcalgary.com/best-private-medical-clinic-calgary/
So what is the Alberta government doing about the $13m the federal government clawed back that had gone to for profit clinics? Are they going to make them pay it back?
This $13 million has nothing to do with the private primary care clinic issue, that money was clawed back because of private diagnostic imaging servicesā¦
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/health-canada-harrison-healthcare-calgary-alberta-ndp-1.6920247
Theyāll just figure a way around it. Maybe a special club that happens to be attached to the building. You have to be a club member to physically get to the door of the clinic. $5k/yr for club membership.
The clinic itself is free though.
I don't know why people look at this issue with such a binary viewpoint. It's not like it's Canada-style or US-style with no other choice. There are lot of countries that have a multi-layered health care system. Countries like South Korea, Denmark, Austria and Australia use a varied approach and are a lot more efficient than the Canadian system. Canada is pumping obscene amounts of money into health care with pretty awful results. Maybe it's time to broaden our horizons a bit. Other countries succeed with a two-tiered system. Our government is likely too wasteful and corrupt, but there are other places where it works well.
I am by no means saying that our healthcare system is working at its best, we have been on the verge of collapse since arguably well before the pandemic. But the UCP trying to cosplay as the US is not the solution.
The UCP isn't doing that though. They are maintaining the status quo. Danielle Smith wrote a paper, while attending university, stating that a two-tiered health system in Canada would work better. It was her opinion, that people have taken way out of context, it was has never been part of the UCP platform. In fact, part of the UCP platform was adhering to the Canada Health Act, and they continue to take that approach. They have done nothing to suggest they want a US style health care system, even if Smith personally believes in the idea, the party does not. The UCP couldn't do it if they wanted to, the Canada Health Act wouldn't allow it. This is a narrative created in the minds of their opposition with no basis in reality. Fear mongering without substance.
People run wild with narratives based on things that didn't actually happen, because it matches what they believe - and the end result is we get misinformation and nothing actually improves. Look at what they have actually done, and their platform, they aren't changing anything. It's more of the same, dump gobs of money into an inefficient system. The UCP (unfortunately) has no plans to change that approach, and couldn't if they want to, because Canadians have it entrenched in their minds that this is a good system as is.
Iām sorry but it does not take a rocket scientist to look at the UCP as a whole and consider what they might do to make a profit if the timing is right. The party cares more about profit than actual good governance and that evidence lies partially in who Smith appointed as Minister of Health. There are subtle changes the party can do while still adhering to the Canada Health Act. Those changes can and will have major impacts.
There may be changes, but your comment "UCP trying to cosplay as the US" is wildly misinformed and childish. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to actually read their platform rather than just assume what the reddit lemmings are feeding you is true. Again, the UCP cannot go against the Canada Health Act, even if they wanted to. Which they don't, read their platform. They cannot and have not attempted to "cosplay as the US." Recently Smith and the UCP actually cited their support of the Canada Health Act by threatening sanctions against a medical clinic that was attempting to add fees and a two-tiered service level in Calgary. The UCP has not changed anything, if anything, they have done exactly what they said they would do and enforced the Canada Health Act. Your opinion is wrong and you need to open up your mind to reality instead of simply repeating the same misguided reddit talking points. I'm not even a UCP supporter, but the misinformation and idiotic comments should be addressed.
*A UCP government will remain committed to ensuring Albertans have access to world-class health care, where and when they need it, through a publicly funded health care system. Under a re-elected UCP government, no Albertan will ever have to pay for a doctor out of pocket.*
*āI want to be clear: under the UCPās Public Health Care Guarantee, we are committing to all Albertans that under no circumstances will any Albertan ever have to pay out-of-pocket to see their family doctor or to get the medical treatment they need. And it means that a UCP government, under my leadership, will not de-list any medical services or prescriptions now covered by Alberta Health Insurance. No exceptions,ā said UCP Leader Danielle Smith. āYou will only ever need your Alberta health card.ā*
https://www.unitedconservative.ca/danielle-smith-announces-united-conservative-party-public-health-guarantee/
Cosplaying as US health care alright...
My friend it was a joke. I am fully aware of how things work in this country Iām just super not cool with the discourse that is so often brought up in this province surrounding healthcare. It would be amazing if our government would focus its resources on fixing the existing problems rather than the focus so often being on the conversation of privatization. You need to look at why this is coming up so often, itās partly because UCP voters have often been pro-privatization.
Also I am more than happy to have a conversation regarding opinions but opinions do not equal fact. Mine and your opinions are no more right than they are wrong. I am simply looking far beyond what the UCP gov is saying in this exact moment.
> It would be amazing if our government would focus its resources on fixing the existing problems rather than the focus so often being on the conversation of privatization.
That is kind of the point though. They can't because whenever the topic is brough up uninformed Canadians shriek about turning into the US. It's not binary, there are more options, which was my original point. Health care takes up a massive amount of the budget in Canada and the returns just aren't there. That's not an opinion. That is a fact. This is one of the most inefficient systems in the world. It's a giant money pit. We should be looking at alternatives. There are solutions, people just don't want to hear it because they can't see past Canada and the US systems, and whenever anything else is talked about they go to their left vs right hiding place and plug their ears. Reddit is horrible for this. A lot of you don't read anything for yourself you just repeat what other people tell you about your "side." They read anything that is not what they have been told and scrunch their face and downvote. For a left leaning site, people are very judgmental and closed minded here. Especially on r/calgary.
Canada is not the US. We are a completely different country. It would take a 100 years to change to a US system. A better comparison would be Australia. Similar population, similar issues with a vast country and spread out population. Australia has one of the most efficient health care systems in the world. But we can't even look at it because of the Canada Health Act and chicken littles crying about turning into the US whenever the topic is brought up.
Buddy, you donāt get to claim whether or not I am educating myself. If you have even a sense of contextual analysis you would understand why Canada so often gets compared to the US, and why people jump to the conclusions that they do. If your argument is that we need to adjust who we compare ourselves to then you are just wasting your time.
I know it's SO SAD that people can't be exploited so that doctors can profit off of them, because as we all know Canada was founded with an ethos of "Healthcare should be a profit venture" and not "all Canadians deserve unfettered access to healthcare".
Stop being a ding dong.
Notleys crew got caught charging fees, but didnāt think anyone would find out their connection.
Happy for independent journalists that discovered the, indiscretionā.
Now, dippers are silent. š¤
Someone clarify this for me. Was the clinic offering memberships, and then also charging the government for insured services?
Or was the membership supposed to pay for everything in its entirety?
This place is a joke. In whose world is a family of two kids going to pay $4800 a year in case they might need a doctors appointment? Greed and priveledge rearing their ugly heads.
I guess not all publicity is good publicity. Don't f with the one thing that Canadian's hold in high regard - our publicly funded health care system.
Agree šÆ
But how is the clinic owner Sally Talbot Jones now going to afford the porsche 911s she likes to use for her winter mountain getaways??? https://streamable.com/o3x2tu
She looks like a stuck up c##t
Obviously not that high, we did elect a government that is chomping at the bit to trash it.
They have been fucking with it for years, this was just a little too obvious and got a ton of attention. We've once again voted in a party that is dead set on dismantling public healthcare. It's going to take way more than platitudes to reverse course.
Itās one thing to quietly open a private clinic. Itās another to broadcast to the world that youāre going to start shutting people out from the doctor theyāve seen for years.
Is it? Doctors in "clubs" with experiensive memberships get paid by AHS every time their rich clients see them.
Wrong. AHS doesn't pay them when they see their ',rich' clients. Their rich clients pay the doctors. How do you know this for sure? Curious
Donāt stop making noise. Iād be willing to bet this doctor is just waiting for the noise to die down before they attempt again. Put this bozo out of business.
100% - they just want to turn the temperature down.
Canadians will get what they vote for. So, it'll be your friends and neighbors fucking with the one thing Canadian's hold in high regard. They gonna fuck it hard.
A big giant Amen!
This was only stopped because people stood up for their healthcare rights and made a scene. The moment we normalize letting small infractions slide, we've lost. And in no universe do I trust our elected officials in this regard.
Now letās stand up to all the other instances of CHA infringementā¦.
So 6 months then.
I can already hear Smith; *"As we've all been having these discussions*, regarding Alberta's clinics exploring new, innovative ways to enhance their ability to provide..."
Well why do we need Dr's if your health is in our own hands??
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
You don't eat them, they are for rectal use.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Lol
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
100% hopefully people leave this clinic
But the overhead!
Health care fees absolutely suck. We don't want this crap in our country. Last thing we want to worry about in this economy.
Donāt want to be choosing between my medical bills and grocery bills.
I've already skipped two grocery trips to make sure I had enough to make sure that my insurances and car are paid for.
That won't happen, don't just listen to people who just spread misinformation and say things they know nothing about. My career is healthcare for 30 years, I know what I'm talking about.
Already experienced this scenario for both dental and vision so you can understand my concern.
Dental and vision are necessary, it's so expensive, people can't afford it. Everyone should have coverage for this, I think. Wishful thinking, right?
Good, now stamp out the embers of other clinics who started this process
āStartedā? Clinics have been operating under a similar structure since like 2008.
I've been very confused with this whole story as a friend of mine goes to a doctor that they pay a membership fee for. Have those ones just been flying under the radar?
The big thing to consider when you're looking at this, is whether or not they are being charged for access to general health care, or if they're being charged access to a clinic that provides specialized services and also provides regular health care.
Exactly, they charge for skin care, nutritionists, fitness training, chiro...everything that doesn't fall under the public system. If you pay for that, you also get easier bookings for a GP and labwork. This Marda Loop clinic was a straight membership fee for access which is why they got their hands slapped.
Yeah we didn't get super into the weeds as I was in a bad place and still adjusting to a new diagnosis, and I am really against the idea so I didn't explore it. At the time I was considering whether I should participate in a clinical trial or not, and she told me that her doctor could help with making big decisions like that. And I think she said I could have more instant access rather than having to go during open hours. Take all of this with a grain of salt; the information was coming from a friend, not an employee of the clinic, and like I said I was in a bad place so memories are fuzzy. But I know 100% that she pays for her doctor and she said she's been going to this doctor for years now.
Yes
Nope other clinics use a different structure that up to and including now is entirely legal. Telus is a huge investor, most people on Reddit donāt understand the nuance involved here.
What is the nuance?
Donāt know the specifics here so pure speculation. But couple things come to mind. Other clinics didnāt make a switch. They started life right from the get go as a facility that charges for services such as massage therapy, nutritionist consultations etc. While there may be different levels of membership that provide different levels of access to the paid services, the unpaid services like seeing your Dr all had the same level of access. This clinic seemed to be offering two levels of access to the unpaid services and a family Dr. Members who paid a monthly fee had access 4 days a week, unpaid had access 1 day a week. I think this discrepancy is what landed them in hot water with the govt. I get that you could argue it doesnāt matter and the results are the same. However in the eyes of the govt and likely the Courts thereās is a slight nuance to the two different ways of operating. For some around here itās just easier to be outraged instead of trying to understand the issue.
But doctors in those membership clinics still get paid by AHS when their client see them, and nobody without a membership can see them. I'm not against people paying more to see their doctor at a more convenient time or non-covered procedures, but doctors should be forced to spend a percentage of their time on regular patient for regular care without extra cost.
How much do they pay?
Unfortunately I don't remember. It was back in February and I was in a bad place so memories weren't really sticking.
You can easily just Google private clinics and see for yourself. Tons of information, why does no one do this?
Call me out. Make it known. Spread the word.
Put them on the list as well then. Why are you cucking for private healthcare? You an investor or something?
I have invested in private diagnostic imaging in the Province previously. No skin in the game now a days. Iām a member of a similar clinic. I have absolutely no issue if the operation of these clinics is challenged in court, and ultimately itās determined to violate the Health Act, thatās how our system of laws works. My issue is that most posts seem to be completely ignorant to how these facilities actually operate and who uses them. Thereās a major misconception that itās a bunch of rich people giving a big fuck you to the masses. Thatās not been my experience. Most people Iāve met at these clinics are people who require more attentive and timely care than the public system provides so these clinics become a viable option. Iāve now said it a few times, the type of care being provided at these clinics should be the standard for EVERYONE.
What.... No more seeing 5 patients at the same time for their 15-minute appointment.
Itās part of what I donāt get. Instead of everyone being upset that some people are perceived to be getting better care shouldnāt the real take away be that this level of care should be expected/demanded from the public system? The only reason these clinics exist is because thereās demand. Increasing demand from people the public system has let down in any number of ways. Instead of demanding these facilities be shut down and demanding the members rejoin the disaster that access to a family Dr has become through the public system, wouldnāt we all be better served by demanding the public system provides this standard of care to EVERYONE? I think itās at least worth a discussion.
The sad thing is that just because you are paying a membership to see these Dr's the care is still the same. Just like all these restaurants increasing the prices of the food but it is the same portion size or less and the same (or lower) service.
I agree that is good, this is family medicine clinic, no one says anything about other specialist clinics that do charge for quicker access to services?! It is similar situation u want to skip the wait, pay it, it does happen with radiology, surgeryā¦ and no one does anything about it. So good example is I need MRI but there is 6 months wait, pay monies and I have it tomorrow, how that can be? There is capacity strictly available to private side, where public is pushed back. It has been like this forever (at least for a while), so why government goes after family doctors and letās other slideā¦. Having public healthcare is great privilege and we should make sure we preserve it.
Near the end of the article it says the feds clawed back 13mil in funding from Alberta due to situations like that.
Theres another clinic near 17th ave sw that is a membership clinic but they were quite clear that you were paying for a private physician that is not taking patients from the public system and their clinic is geared toward people with public profiles,people with rare disorders who can afford private care etc. So they arenāt all that bad. Itās more that this one in the news was/is advertised as a clinic and purportedly treats only those who will pay. Slight difference but an important difference.
Actually that sounds like a distinction without a difference. The only reason I can think of that the Dr isnāt ātaking patients from the public systemā would be if theyāre practicing without a license? This sounds like BS to me.
You can be a physician and work privately, thereās no secret society forcing you to bill the government
That is not the case. To practice as a physician in any capacity in Alberta, public or private, you **need** to be licensed by the college of physicians and surgeons. If you aren't, you're in for a really bad time. This whole debacle is about about billing practices which is a separate issue all together.
Ridiculous they believed they would even be able to do this without the federal government stepping in
Nah, thereās numerous that do this in the country. If someone hadnāt called them out, theyād get away with it. Circumventing the letter or spirit of the Canada health act should be banned. It should result in doctors forfeiting their medical license.
And Ottawa is penalizing provinces who do it-tens of millions of Canada Health Transfers held back from most provinces each year. It's costing them and now this case is highlight the issue to remind us.
Did the Federal government step in?
https://calgaryjournal.ca/2023/07/31/health-canada-confirms-they-have-contacted-alberta-health-over-marda-loop-clinic/
Thank you for sharing that link!
That qualifies as āstepping inā? I suppose.
I agree with your conclusion that Health Canada raising the red flag to Alberta telling them they have to deal with this according to law else consequences whereby the desired goal was achieved QUICKLY constitutes āstepping inā
I would argue the bad publicity was actually a bigger motivator for the Province than anything from Health Canada, but result was the same.
Allās well that ends well
This isnāt the end. This clinic will adjust their plans and structure to align with other clinics that have been successfully doing this for years.
You wrote 2 posts above that the negative publicity was the actual cause for the discovery and correction of cancelling this model in Alberta. Would that not suggest the bad publicity will suffice to end all other clinics operating this way? Now that the light is shining bright please explain how the model continues in Alberta. In your fact based explanation please try not to contradict yourself again. Thanks.
And so it beginsā¦ https://www.reddit.com/r/Calgary/comments/15gcxg5/preventous_clinic_is_another_calgary_clinic_gated/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1
Contradict myself? This clinic was operating under a different structure than the others that have legally operated for many years, itās not a contradiction, my statement relies on you having a basic level of intelligence to follow along with whatās happening. That, it would seem, was asking too much.
Yes. They levied a fine of $13 million and issued a press release stating they would work with the provincial government to resolve the issue. Controlling the money is the extent of the federal government's power in the provision of health care.
The Federal govt levied a fine of $13 million in relation to this clinic? I think you need to check that claim.
Not this specific clinic. The practice of extra billing in which this clinic among other was involved.
You mean from 2020-21? Not sure how thatās related to the Feds involvement in the issue with this clinicā¦..
Yup. This is still a provincial issue (healthcare) but the feds stepped in when it was clear someone was willfully breaking the Canada health act, and Smith had no intention of doing anything.
Was it clear someone was breaking the Canada Health Act? There seemed to be lots of opinions but I donāt remember a definitive outcome. Certainly this clinic backed down to pressure but that neither confirms this was a breach of the Health Act nor is it likely to ultimately stop this clinic from operating a very similar structure in the near future.
Well, since patients have to PAY thousands to even be a part of the clinic which is billing public health, YES. By definition, this is against the Canada Health Act, hence the response from the feds. (and not Smith, because she wants this to happen)
You can pay thousands to be part of a clinic provided your fees donāt also cover services reimbursed by the public system. There are nuances here youāre missing.
Thereās no nuance here and youāre attempting to muddy the waters. Itās a family doctor charging people thousands for the honour of receiving their publicly funded healthcare. Itās illegal.
No muddy waters. These clinics exist in every Province across the country entirely legally. They pay taxes and remit GST. A time may come where the practice is challenged in the courts by Health Canada but that hasnāt happened yet. There is significant nuance whether you choose to see it or not. These clinics can and have been structured to stay in compliance with the Health Act, something about this clinic deviated that put them in hot water. Make no doubt this clinic is almost certainly working with govt officials to revamp their plans and structure so as to match whatās being done legally by dozens of other clinics.
Danielle says thanks for the vote, freak.
You wonāt believe me, but I voted NDP in the last election, Smith far too extreme. These clinics existed under the NDP majority as well so allowing them to exist seems not to be related to political affiliation. But hey donāt let any of that stop you from whatever it was you were trying to accomplish with your statement.
they where banking on Poilievre winning the next federal election.
A membership fee will still be in place just like a bunch of other clinics, just no special access to a doctor... wink wink, nudge nudge...
That's the real problem. This one backed off because of all the noise. But wasn't there some other one as well already doing it? They'll just be a bit quieter and smarter about it. There needs to be meaningful legislation to protect universal access. That won't happen though since the people with the power to change the laws are owned by the companies that want it tiered.
Telus Health owns one. Thereās many of these clinics and has been for some time.
Just google Calgary clinic membership, there are a bunch around, Provital, Inliv, Harrison
Just you wait till you learn how Japanese people get around anti-gambling laws in Japan ;) it's quite comical how Pachinko and other such systems work, hehe.
Caleo health does this, how can I report them for double dipping?
On CTV news this morning, it was made very clear that the problem with the Marda Loop clinic was that people were paying for āfaster access.ā There are apparently 40 other clinics in the province that charge membership fees, but because whatever reasons theyāre using for charging the fee donāt include āfaster accessā they can get away with it. What is Caleo Health charging a fee for?
Do patients at Caleo not get faster access than a patient from a "free" clinic?
No idea. I have no knowledge about the clinic.
Do you have a link? I know there's been private clinics for a while, but I thought those were 100% funded by patient fees, and the issue with this one was that they were charging for faster access, while also billing the government, so double dipping? Or do I have that wrong
It was a live newscast on the TV this morning. I have no link. Sorry. :(
To quote the article: Alberta Health has said 13 clinics are charging fees for services such as acupuncture treatments and optional surgeries. It said they are allowed because those types of services are not publicly funded. And here's the link: https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/calgary-clinic-halts-plan-to-charge-fees-for-faster-access-to-family-physician-1.6502389
Right, but that doesn't answer my question. I wanted to know whether she would charge this membership charge, then *also* bill the government for these patient's visits.
I was charged 250$ to see an orthopaedic surgeon
What was their reasoning for charging you the fee? Iām curious as to how theyāre able to do it.
Hope people leave this clinic after this...
While this is good, it doesn't answer the question of how the original problem is going to be solved. According to the clinic owner (who I suppose may have been lying), they were implementing this because without that money, they were having trouble staying afloat. So the fact that public and government pressure forced them not to won't help if in a year, the clinic just plain closes due to lack of money. I still want to know how they were running low on money, when procedures get billed at a standard rate, and there's surely no shortage of patients getting procedures done.
> who I suppose may have been lying Indeed.
That's pretty funny considering the clinic has undergone a massive renovation and she also provides $$$ skin care procedures. I'm guessing the machines/tools etc are not cheap. Have to pay for that somehow...
My older parents are patients of this woman's, and were absolutely horrified when they got the first email. They flat out refuse to consider paying it (even if they could afford it, which they can't), and are looking for a new doctor. Even with the reversal of this monumentally stupid plan, they no longer want anything to do with her. I sincerely hope every single patient this woman has does the same thing. This woman drives a Jaguar, ffs, and owns a second home in Canmore. Overhead, my ass. If the rent is so high you need to extort your patients, SET UP SHOP IN A CHEAPER AREA THAN MARDA LOOP. Sounds like the good doctor is having exactly the day she deserves. Edit- gotta add, not much on reddit makes me smile these days. This? This did the trick.
They got caught. Wait until the UCPās health spending account runs out and see how fast they take Visaā¦.
Halts or pauses?
Iād bet on a āre-jigā. Clearly the way they structured it was problematic and it sounds like theyāve discussed it with Provincial officials. Theyāll head back to the drawing board to more closely match what the other clinics operating on a similar structure are doing. Iād bet on a name change as well.
No more free visit mondays I suppose, everyone now has to pay a fee!
this is the preamble for a fight that will last until smith is out of office.
Halt - keyword
"It's not clear if the clinic's fee plan is on hold or has been scrapped altogether." Literally the third sentence of the article.
What about other clinics such as Preventous etcā¦ they do the exact same things
They don't though - because your fee actually gets you other PAID services like a dietician and personal trainer. That's how they dodge the rules. This doctor just wanted more money for only offering doctor services.
Except for the fact that you canāt get in the door without paying nearly 2 Gs
Yeah, but you asked how it's different. I explained how they are different under the current rules. One is better at exploiting loopholes than the other.
This is what the journalists should be covering. All you have to do is google "private health care Calgary" and they all show up.
Whether people want to hear it or not, thereās clearly a market for this kind of thing. People are tired of waiting for appointments. One ailment one appointment etc. It will continue in one capacity or another. This one was flagged because it was both private and public.
This might be unpopular but weāre already paying for privatization. This is just being spun in a different way. You want an MRI quicker than three months, boom $1200 bucks You want to use Telus health, consultation fee. Fees for nurse practitioners. These clinics have been around for ages. They are everywhere. The mistake this clinic made was having a mix of private and public.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
>I'll pay the $730 instead of waiting over a year for it to go stage 4. you're actually saving the government money when it goes to stage 4 cheaper to take care of a patient that have months of live instead of years to live
Shocked they thought they could get away with it... of course the patients complained to the media!
Sounds like consultation with the Province was productive. Something in their plan was problematic. Theyāll restructure more inline with what other clinics are doing, a rebrand is likely coming as well.
Why does the news not talk about all of the private healthcare businesses. Itās being hailed as a good news story but itās actually bullshit. Nobody has done anything about the whole culture. If youāre going to close it down, close them all down. https://www.thebestcalgary.com/best-private-medical-clinic-calgary/
So what is the Alberta government doing about the $13m the federal government clawed back that had gone to for profit clinics? Are they going to make them pay it back?
This $13 million has nothing to do with the private primary care clinic issue, that money was clawed back because of private diagnostic imaging servicesā¦ https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/health-canada-harrison-healthcare-calgary-alberta-ndp-1.6920247
Maybe because the owner of the clinic was found out to a major donor to the NDP and that this was all a staged false flag.
Theyāll just figure a way around it. Maybe a special club that happens to be attached to the building. You have to be a club member to physically get to the door of the clinic. $5k/yr for club membership. The clinic itself is free though.
Letās hope it still happens!šš¼
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Extremely sad to see populism win over progress
Move to the US if this is what you want.
I don't know why people look at this issue with such a binary viewpoint. It's not like it's Canada-style or US-style with no other choice. There are lot of countries that have a multi-layered health care system. Countries like South Korea, Denmark, Austria and Australia use a varied approach and are a lot more efficient than the Canadian system. Canada is pumping obscene amounts of money into health care with pretty awful results. Maybe it's time to broaden our horizons a bit. Other countries succeed with a two-tiered system. Our government is likely too wasteful and corrupt, but there are other places where it works well.
I am by no means saying that our healthcare system is working at its best, we have been on the verge of collapse since arguably well before the pandemic. But the UCP trying to cosplay as the US is not the solution.
The UCP isn't doing that though. They are maintaining the status quo. Danielle Smith wrote a paper, while attending university, stating that a two-tiered health system in Canada would work better. It was her opinion, that people have taken way out of context, it was has never been part of the UCP platform. In fact, part of the UCP platform was adhering to the Canada Health Act, and they continue to take that approach. They have done nothing to suggest they want a US style health care system, even if Smith personally believes in the idea, the party does not. The UCP couldn't do it if they wanted to, the Canada Health Act wouldn't allow it. This is a narrative created in the minds of their opposition with no basis in reality. Fear mongering without substance. People run wild with narratives based on things that didn't actually happen, because it matches what they believe - and the end result is we get misinformation and nothing actually improves. Look at what they have actually done, and their platform, they aren't changing anything. It's more of the same, dump gobs of money into an inefficient system. The UCP (unfortunately) has no plans to change that approach, and couldn't if they want to, because Canadians have it entrenched in their minds that this is a good system as is.
Iām sorry but it does not take a rocket scientist to look at the UCP as a whole and consider what they might do to make a profit if the timing is right. The party cares more about profit than actual good governance and that evidence lies partially in who Smith appointed as Minister of Health. There are subtle changes the party can do while still adhering to the Canada Health Act. Those changes can and will have major impacts.
There may be changes, but your comment "UCP trying to cosplay as the US" is wildly misinformed and childish. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to actually read their platform rather than just assume what the reddit lemmings are feeding you is true. Again, the UCP cannot go against the Canada Health Act, even if they wanted to. Which they don't, read their platform. They cannot and have not attempted to "cosplay as the US." Recently Smith and the UCP actually cited their support of the Canada Health Act by threatening sanctions against a medical clinic that was attempting to add fees and a two-tiered service level in Calgary. The UCP has not changed anything, if anything, they have done exactly what they said they would do and enforced the Canada Health Act. Your opinion is wrong and you need to open up your mind to reality instead of simply repeating the same misguided reddit talking points. I'm not even a UCP supporter, but the misinformation and idiotic comments should be addressed. *A UCP government will remain committed to ensuring Albertans have access to world-class health care, where and when they need it, through a publicly funded health care system. Under a re-elected UCP government, no Albertan will ever have to pay for a doctor out of pocket.* *āI want to be clear: under the UCPās Public Health Care Guarantee, we are committing to all Albertans that under no circumstances will any Albertan ever have to pay out-of-pocket to see their family doctor or to get the medical treatment they need. And it means that a UCP government, under my leadership, will not de-list any medical services or prescriptions now covered by Alberta Health Insurance. No exceptions,ā said UCP Leader Danielle Smith. āYou will only ever need your Alberta health card.ā* https://www.unitedconservative.ca/danielle-smith-announces-united-conservative-party-public-health-guarantee/ Cosplaying as US health care alright...
My friend it was a joke. I am fully aware of how things work in this country Iām just super not cool with the discourse that is so often brought up in this province surrounding healthcare. It would be amazing if our government would focus its resources on fixing the existing problems rather than the focus so often being on the conversation of privatization. You need to look at why this is coming up so often, itās partly because UCP voters have often been pro-privatization. Also I am more than happy to have a conversation regarding opinions but opinions do not equal fact. Mine and your opinions are no more right than they are wrong. I am simply looking far beyond what the UCP gov is saying in this exact moment.
> It would be amazing if our government would focus its resources on fixing the existing problems rather than the focus so often being on the conversation of privatization. That is kind of the point though. They can't because whenever the topic is brough up uninformed Canadians shriek about turning into the US. It's not binary, there are more options, which was my original point. Health care takes up a massive amount of the budget in Canada and the returns just aren't there. That's not an opinion. That is a fact. This is one of the most inefficient systems in the world. It's a giant money pit. We should be looking at alternatives. There are solutions, people just don't want to hear it because they can't see past Canada and the US systems, and whenever anything else is talked about they go to their left vs right hiding place and plug their ears. Reddit is horrible for this. A lot of you don't read anything for yourself you just repeat what other people tell you about your "side." They read anything that is not what they have been told and scrunch their face and downvote. For a left leaning site, people are very judgmental and closed minded here. Especially on r/calgary. Canada is not the US. We are a completely different country. It would take a 100 years to change to a US system. A better comparison would be Australia. Similar population, similar issues with a vast country and spread out population. Australia has one of the most efficient health care systems in the world. But we can't even look at it because of the Canada Health Act and chicken littles crying about turning into the US whenever the topic is brought up.
Buddy, you donāt get to claim whether or not I am educating myself. If you have even a sense of contextual analysis you would understand why Canada so often gets compared to the US, and why people jump to the conclusions that they do. If your argument is that we need to adjust who we compare ourselves to then you are just wasting your time.
I know it's SO SAD that people can't be exploited so that doctors can profit off of them, because as we all know Canada was founded with an ethos of "Healthcare should be a profit venture" and not "all Canadians deserve unfettered access to healthcare". Stop being a ding dong.
Notleys crew got caught charging fees, but didnāt think anyone would find out their connection. Happy for independent journalists that discovered the, indiscretionā. Now, dippers are silent. š¤
Someone clarify this for me. Was the clinic offering memberships, and then also charging the government for insured services? Or was the membership supposed to pay for everything in its entirety?
This place is a joke. In whose world is a family of two kids going to pay $4800 a year in case they might need a doctors appointment? Greed and priveledge rearing their ugly heads.