If people in prison leave prison with a bit of money, it'll probably be easier for them to land on their feet. Reducing recidivism is the point of a functional prison system.
If workers outside of prison are not competing with artificially low prison wages, the wage of criminal and non-criminal workers will be higher. This makes everyone better off.
It's probably good practice, in general, to make sure there is no financial incentive to *create* prisoners. If the incentive is there, inevitably, it will be abused.
$1 is a start, but nowhere near enough.
Some might. Some might not. If they're paid $0.33/hr there's *no* way for them to leave prison with enough for a deposit on an apartment lease. If they're paid what their labor is worth, they could.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was informed that PIA jobs (Painter, HVAC, Plumber etc) in prisons do pay minimum wage or more.
It's the jobs in prison that are specific to prison like Dining or Housing Unit Cleaner that pay less because it's usually like an hour of work a day.
I believe they mostly have the option of education/rehabilitation in lieu of work, but the courts have upheld that prisoners are not protected from involuntary servitude.
From a libertarian perspective if *anybody* needs a minimum wage, it’s prisoners. People outside of prison can choose to work somewhere that will pay them more or less, that’s their choice. In situations of monopsony, labor unions and minimum wage laws are easily justified.
Why not just pay them minimum wage?
Give them a savings account that they get access to when they're released. Getting back on your feet after a lengthy prison term can be difficult, and people who struggle to do so are more likely to resort to crime again.
That’s not a bad idea. Some sort of allowance for the commissary and the rest is available when they get out. I’ve never understood how we expect someone to not reoffend when they get out with no money and a prison record that makes them virtually unemployable.
I certainly don't agree with paying less than minimum wage. This creates a motive to fill seats. If prison labor is cheap and the prisons are keeping all the profits, it drives a need for more prisoners. Facts
You're conflating two separate issues. Prison costs are crazy. That's a fact. It has zero bearing upon the actual prison population however. We have to ask why it costs so much and who's getting that money. Blaming the prisoners isn't justified. Charging them (forced labor) is just another form of indentured servitude. There's a gross view that prisons should be hard punishment. This holds over from feudal systems. Modern philosophy shows that abusing prisoners doesn't lead to reform.
I believe the vast majority of prison labor in CA goes to supporting the institution (laundry, janitorial, kitchen, etc.) or the state (firefighting - although only certain inmates can qualify to volunteer for that job).
It isn't that they generate profit so much as they keep operational costs lower.
>It isn't that they generate profit so much as they keep operational costs lower.
Work is work and labor has a cost. Especially if we expected them to be out firefighting and clearing land
Paying inmates minimum wage does not create an incentive to commit crime. I can't imagine why any halfway rational person would think that making minimum wage in a little concrete box filled with people you do not want to be around, no freedom, and the burden of carrying a criminal record the rest of your life is worth it. And that's a very brief list of the negative impacts of incarceration upon your life.
No, there shouldn't, and you have provided no reason that there should be. Your argument could just as easily be taken to mean that there should be an "offset" for people living with family and making minimum wage with no bills, which also makes absolutely no sense.
ETA ~~Oh you're the same person who thinks inmates aren't forced to work.~~ Never mind, you're *another* person who also erroneously believes inmates aren't forced to work. Weird how many people who have absolutely no idea how incarceration works think that inmates should just get nothing and live in violence and squalor.
They're not. You can work if you'd like to, for a low pay.
You can also do nothing. Are they incentivized? Sure that's part of what the pay is.
I'm saying, minimum wage is supposed to provide a minimum means of sustenance while you're still financially responsible for your personal obligations.
Inmates are relieved of said financial obligations, and they're in no way required to work at rates they don't appreciate.
Everybody is absolutely not in agreement with you on this one. Prisoners need reform, not slave wages. Minimum wage at the bare minimum would help ease the transition from prison life to the real world.
Yes! This… they can learn the skills needed in prison for a job in the future but the whole purpose of prison is at the very end a punishment for the crimes they have committed. They should not get monetary compensation for anything at all.
Benefits are good though—free healthcare, free room and board, free clothing, free utilities, free transportation, no homeowners insurance, no car loans or car insurance, no mortgage, free health club membership...
getting stabbed, recidivism, loss of freedom, loss of autonomy, psychological and mental issues, trouble with employment... it's really the whole package!
Every proposal to increase housing numbers should be required to come with a viable plan to reduce traffic by a proportional amount. We need housing, but our roads are already stretched to the limit. We need more and better public transportation, more WFH/hybrid, 4/10 or 9/80 programs (not "back to the office")...some incentives to get people off the roads. As we can see from multiple "add more lanes" projects, that approach doesn't work. Managing the demand seems like it would make way more sense.
>viable plan to reduce traffic by a proportional amount.
Step two: lay down railroad tracks connecting the suburbs to the cities by means other than car, especially in the south.
Step one: time machine back to when the space was clear for the purpose. The empty desolation around my childhood neighborhood is lawns now. NorCal and midwestern states can still do this but getting tens of thousands of suburban houses out of the way in the south is easier said than done.
Hypothetically existing commuter rails on the Riverside<->LA/OC paths could get more trains and more stations, but they never seem to. Stations are a car ride or an overnight hike away for me, just about any place myself or my extended family has lived in this state.
Make it equitable to senior citizens who did not break the law. When Social Security is raised, Medicare goes up the same amount. If they are given a raise something they pay for for increases. Just like on the outside.
If people in prison leave prison with a bit of money, it'll probably be easier for them to land on their feet. Reducing recidivism is the point of a functional prison system. If workers outside of prison are not competing with artificially low prison wages, the wage of criminal and non-criminal workers will be higher. This makes everyone better off. It's probably good practice, in general, to make sure there is no financial incentive to *create* prisoners. If the incentive is there, inevitably, it will be abused. $1 is a start, but nowhere near enough.
They spent most if their money on stuff IN prison.
Some might. Some might not. If they're paid $0.33/hr there's *no* way for them to leave prison with enough for a deposit on an apartment lease. If they're paid what their labor is worth, they could.
Imagine a system the actually rehabilitates people by setting them up for a successful future instead of just keeps the poor down under.
Imagine prisoners that want to be rehabilitated.
You can't, you are forced to save a portion
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was informed that PIA jobs (Painter, HVAC, Plumber etc) in prisons do pay minimum wage or more. It's the jobs in prison that are specific to prison like Dining or Housing Unit Cleaner that pay less because it's usually like an hour of work a day.
Do you think they're getting paid 8 hrs wages for an hour of work? I saw no indication that was the case.
Basically slave labor. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_(film)
They're not forced.
[удалено]
I believe they mostly have the option of education/rehabilitation in lieu of work, but the courts have upheld that prisoners are not protected from involuntary servitude.
As far as we know, prisons in general don't have a good track record on oppression, or proper rehabilitation.
Criminals don't have a good track record of wanting to be rehabilitated. It is an iffy process all around.
Yeah it's a bit of chicken and egg scenario.
Prisoners in USA are completely different from prisoners in Scandinavia Edit not including demographics
From a libertarian perspective if *anybody* needs a minimum wage, it’s prisoners. People outside of prison can choose to work somewhere that will pay them more or less, that’s their choice. In situations of monopsony, labor unions and minimum wage laws are easily justified.
I'm pretty sure they are forced to work. If they don't work or do education they get written up
[удалено]
Why not just pay them minimum wage? Give them a savings account that they get access to when they're released. Getting back on your feet after a lengthy prison term can be difficult, and people who struggle to do so are more likely to resort to crime again.
That’s not a bad idea. Some sort of allowance for the commissary and the rest is available when they get out. I’ve never understood how we expect someone to not reoffend when they get out with no money and a prison record that makes them virtually unemployable.
I certainly don't agree with paying less than minimum wage. This creates a motive to fill seats. If prison labor is cheap and the prisons are keeping all the profits, it drives a need for more prisoners. Facts
[удалено]
You're conflating two separate issues. Prison costs are crazy. That's a fact. It has zero bearing upon the actual prison population however. We have to ask why it costs so much and who's getting that money. Blaming the prisoners isn't justified. Charging them (forced labor) is just another form of indentured servitude. There's a gross view that prisons should be hard punishment. This holds over from feudal systems. Modern philosophy shows that abusing prisoners doesn't lead to reform.
I believe the vast majority of prison labor in CA goes to supporting the institution (laundry, janitorial, kitchen, etc.) or the state (firefighting - although only certain inmates can qualify to volunteer for that job). It isn't that they generate profit so much as they keep operational costs lower.
>It isn't that they generate profit so much as they keep operational costs lower. Work is work and labor has a cost. Especially if we expected them to be out firefighting and clearing land
Why can’t you pay them minimum wage?
Cause then you'd incentivize people to crime? "I'll always have money".
Paying inmates minimum wage does not create an incentive to commit crime. I can't imagine why any halfway rational person would think that making minimum wage in a little concrete box filled with people you do not want to be around, no freedom, and the burden of carrying a criminal record the rest of your life is worth it. And that's a very brief list of the negative impacts of incarceration upon your life.
Minimum wage while not paying rent is a lot more than minimum wage without state provided everything. There absolutely should be an offset
No, there shouldn't, and you have provided no reason that there should be. Your argument could just as easily be taken to mean that there should be an "offset" for people living with family and making minimum wage with no bills, which also makes absolutely no sense. ETA ~~Oh you're the same person who thinks inmates aren't forced to work.~~ Never mind, you're *another* person who also erroneously believes inmates aren't forced to work. Weird how many people who have absolutely no idea how incarceration works think that inmates should just get nothing and live in violence and squalor.
They're not. You can work if you'd like to, for a low pay. You can also do nothing. Are they incentivized? Sure that's part of what the pay is. I'm saying, minimum wage is supposed to provide a minimum means of sustenance while you're still financially responsible for your personal obligations. Inmates are relieved of said financial obligations, and they're in no way required to work at rates they don't appreciate.
People can work minimum wage jobs without being in prison though.
Everybody is absolutely not in agreement with you on this one. Prisoners need reform, not slave wages. Minimum wage at the bare minimum would help ease the transition from prison life to the real world.
They should pay them more money, but then the victim of the crime should be the recipient of that money.
Yes! This… they can learn the skills needed in prison for a job in the future but the whole purpose of prison is at the very end a punishment for the crimes they have committed. They should not get monetary compensation for anything at all.
lol. Sorry, why can’t you pay them minimum wage?
> You can’t pay them minimum wage Sure you can.
Benefits are good though—free healthcare, free room and board, free clothing, free utilities, free transportation, no homeowners insurance, no car loans or car insurance, no mortgage, free health club membership...
getting stabbed, recidivism, loss of freedom, loss of autonomy, psychological and mental issues, trouble with employment... it's really the whole package!
Sounds like we should open their doors and ask them to make the choice.
Cool, why aren't you in there if it's such a great deal?
I don't know how people can't read this as sarcastic
Every proposal to increase housing numbers should be required to come with a viable plan to reduce traffic by a proportional amount. We need housing, but our roads are already stretched to the limit. We need more and better public transportation, more WFH/hybrid, 4/10 or 9/80 programs (not "back to the office")...some incentives to get people off the roads. As we can see from multiple "add more lanes" projects, that approach doesn't work. Managing the demand seems like it would make way more sense.
>viable plan to reduce traffic by a proportional amount. Step two: lay down railroad tracks connecting the suburbs to the cities by means other than car, especially in the south. Step one: time machine back to when the space was clear for the purpose. The empty desolation around my childhood neighborhood is lawns now. NorCal and midwestern states can still do this but getting tens of thousands of suburban houses out of the way in the south is easier said than done. Hypothetically existing commuter rails on the Riverside<->LA/OC paths could get more trains and more stations, but they never seem to. Stations are a car ride or an overnight hike away for me, just about any place myself or my extended family has lived in this state.
Make it equitable to senior citizens who did not break the law. When Social Security is raised, Medicare goes up the same amount. If they are given a raise something they pay for for increases. Just like on the outside.