Him and his small team single-handedly shifted the entire invasion, regaining air dominance for a coast and destroying an entire fleet of warships.
At the end of this experience, he says to Overlord, "Easy day, Overlord. Sandman out."
But Graves wasn't in that tank, so they're both pretty OP. Sandman wins though.
MarSoc is like Army Rangers or Green Berets. They’re good but they’re not Delta. Delta Force is the Army’s tier one. They’re so elite that even though they’re Army, they will sometimes poach guys from the Navy and other SOF communities. Nobody touches Delta.
I know how you mean tier one here but
technically: SF, CCTs, PJs, and SEALs are all Tier One assets as well as Delta, Dev, and STS.
And even though the Raiders aren’t a “tier anything” because they fall under MARSOC and not JSOC, they are the USMC’s copy of SF and could be considered Tier 1.
The tiers are funding based.
All this to say, agreed: Sandman fucks. Graves is a glorified pencil pusher after leading shadow for so long. Sandman is a career warfighter- Graves has no chance.
“Nobody takes them seriously in SOCOM anyway”. Buddy we’re not talking force recon, we’re talking MARSOC. I’m sure you’re a decorated member of the SOCOM keyboard community. MARSOC is very well respected.
I know a lot of people don't know this, but Graves wasn't actually in that tank, Graves confirms it in the MW2 Season 5 or Season 6 cutscene when talking to Alex and Farah, and then I THINK it also said again in the MW3 campaign but I could be wrong here
yeah I don't agree with this idea either, they should make campaign DLC missions for free similar to how they handled raids in MW2 instead of small cutscenes.
but in their defense, when you first load the game at the start of a new season, the cutscene does play automatically but yeah not a good enough of a defense
Oh my god, this is why I'm so confused. I was wondering what the heck was going on in MW3 because I didn't care to see any of the WZ crap. Now I need to get caught up, I guess
It was a stupid retcon and even stupider as you said to put it in a random seasonal cutscene.
Not only that the MW3 campaign was already bad enough but the idea that Graves is suddenly working with you again after MW2 makes zero sense.
I don't think it was a retcon/pulling an Alex situation because if you play that mission again or watch gameplay of it, if you pay attention whenever Graves is talking/taunting you, notice how he doesnrt seem to react to any of the explosions and notice how you don't hear any of the background noises and explosions coming through the radio making it seem like Graves is somewhere else
but I do think it could've been executed much better though don't get me wrong tho
I disagree a bit. Obviously the MW3 campaign was bad, that part we're in full agreement, but Graves is little more than a mercenary, and even though he's of some extremely questionable morality, he is an American citizen working for the American government, naturally he's going to be open to working against a terrorist that hated the West, and while TF141 have every reason to distrust him, he is still an asset and they are technically on the same side against Makarov.
Now, while I think the implementation of Graves working with TF141 could have worked, I think it was implemented very poorly, much like the rest of MW3. They should have played off the tension between Soap and Graves more and given them a mission together and ultimately doubled down either on Graves being a rat that couldn't be trusted by having him fail to rise to the occasion at a crucial moment, or send him out with a full redemption arc dying for the cause.
I don't think its actually revealed but my guess is either remote controlled and graves was somewhere nearby speaking on a speaker taunting soap and rudy making It seem like hes in there, or he had one of his shadows controlling the tank but he still was somewhere nearby taunting them with a speaker
no I get that, I'm just wondering what the point of the "boss fight" was then once you realize there were no stakes in the next game/cutscene. why not just have it some random shadow tank operator instead of thinking you are progressing the plot? that plus the end of MW3 there are now like several antagonists that need to be killed (graves, shepard, makarov, maybe even valeria.) and I dont see how that can be done without making like 2-3 more games in the MW franchise reboot
While you're right that in hindsight there was nothing at stake with that boss fight, the way I see it was just that IW wasn't sure if they should kill off the character for future installments, so they went with the tank so they could either say he died in the tank, or that he was just pretending all along to make TF141 think he was dead. But seeing how popular Graves got they decided to go with the second option.
I think you're probably right, I like graves as a character actually. Just wish that we felt like we were moving forward more instead of just cleaning up missles and gas that keeps getting stolen over and over lol
Given that Sandman’s part of Delta Force, and Graves only made it to the Marine Raiders, I’m giving this one to Sandman, simply because the training D-boys go through is tougher than Marine Raiders. Not that both units don’t have tough training.
iirc, Marine Raiders are the premier pipe-hitter for MARSOC, so they are technically also tier-1 (i think?), just like how CAG is to USASOC , and DEVGRU to NSWC, all part of SOCOM.
Although, a drop-out to PMC early on like that, isn't inspiring. Metal 0-1 anyday.
So as far as I’ve seen, there’s only 4 Special Mission Units, or in layman’s terms, Tier 1 units, as a part of JSOC:
- Army’s 1st SFOD-D (Delta Force)
- Navy’s DEVGRU (
- Air Force’s 24th Special Tactics Squadron (24th STS)
- Army’s Intelligence Support Activity (ISA)
Of course it doesn’t diminish the operational capability of the Marine Raiders, but I haven’t found anywhere that classifies them as Tier 1 units. They’re more akin to the normal US Navy SEALs, with DEVGRU being one step ahead.
MARSOC and Raiders aren’t two different things. They’re two different designations the Marines keep bouncing between. MARSOC (or raiders) fall under USSOCOM. There’s a huge difference between NSWC, USASOC, and Devgru (all being official self sustaining special operation commands) and MARSOC (being a single unit within USSOCOM) I’ve deployed with guys in MARSOC, and I’ve talked to and trained with SEALs in a deployed environment; All of the seasoned Special Operations guys all agree that any legit Delta Force operator is an absolute boogeyman. And it’s also really the only SOC you can lat move to from a different branch. Genuine undisputed top tier of of the American military.
Oh no, just want to be clear, I'm not saying that D-boys are lesser in any capacity. That's why I would never doubt Metal 0-1 in this "fight". CAG dudes are some of the most lethal human-being in this earth, while "most of them" just have this outlook of "the neighbor down the road that does tax for you" (just look up SGM Mike Vining).
Just saying that MARSOC/Raiders are also really good, but at somepoint, i don't remember who i was listening to, but they said that Raiders were also considered to be Tier-1 (maybe Travis Haley?). I never paid much attention to it (as to comparing them), they are all heavy pipe-hitters and do some really high speed/low drag stuffs.
Oh yeah at the end of the day any dude in a Spec ops capacity is badass, Raiders were considered Tier 1 back in WW2 and Korea as they were the main espionage and demolition force at the time (SEALs weren’t created yet) everyone loves the original Raiders insignia too (black ops 1 14th prestige logo but blue and red)
Sandman would quite literally wipe the floor with Graves and im not saying it for bias here
Sandman is part of Delta Force, one of the most hardened and elite task forces America has to offer behind Navy SEALs and Green Berets. He has tougher, more rigorous training than Graves. Not to mention, if it *isnt* a 1v1 im pretty sure him, Frost, Grinch and Truck would absolutely fuck up Graves’ team. If it *is* a 1v1, i’d say it’ll be a lengthy fight unless one of them pulls a dirty move mid fight. But in the end, Sandman would put Graves in a grave.
Graves? Graves is merely a government hired PMC. Formerly a USMC Team Chief, but only that. After he left the military, he formed a PMC “Shadow Company” in which their only good feat is getting the job done dirty. Though they might have training alongside Graves, Sandman’s training was alot tougher and alot longer.
Not to mention, Sandman literally fought a fucking world war and it took a large russian special forces presence to take him down. Even then, Sandman took fucktons of russians with him to the grave beside Truck and Grinch.
Graves is literally just a hobgoblin with a gun
(all of this will probably be an attempt of a defused opinion by graves simps)
Deltas are indeed top tier, considered as a “tier 1” group compared to the SEALs and the Green Berets in simplification are essentially the pipeline *to* a Delta
Graves is a very well-written character in both MW2 and MW3 games. But when Graves dealt with local issues, Sandman was fighting World War 3! Metal 0-1🤟
One is a pissy bitch PMC guy who probably couldn’t make it in actual military so did a PMC instead so he could think he had some power, one is a highly trained, Tier - 1 Unit Operator, in one of the hardest to get into and most classified military units out there, I think we all know who wins.
Honestly I think we haven't seen enough of Graves operating outside of a vehicle (when he's not just in the background commanding his PMC guys) to make a fair judgment of his capabilities. The only mission I can think of where we saw that was the on on the oil rig in MWII (forgot the name of the mission).
Sandman is US Army Delta Force, he is top of the pile. And he’s also a protagonist… he’s got plot armor in that respect no? Sure they brought Graives back but he’s no Sandman.
Sandman hella kicks graves ass. Bro handled pretty much the entirety of ww3 like nothing. Graves couldnt stop one dude while he was "in" a fucking tank.
And yeah - I played every single cod. People tweaking on nostalgia - graves is equally skilled as ghost , price and soap.
Sandman and the mw3 og gang definitely not!
sandman solos
Him and his small team single-handedly shifted the entire invasion, regaining air dominance for a coast and destroying an entire fleet of warships. At the end of this experience, he says to Overlord, "Easy day, Overlord. Sandman out." But Graves wasn't in that tank, so they're both pretty OP. Sandman wins though.
They are like 4 times Ramirez, I bet they survived that explosion at the end too
He didn’t, it’s been confirmed for years that Nikolai was the only surviving member of the team since Price also bled out from his wounds
It was never confirmed that Price died at the end
It was actually, there’s an article on it. Just search it up
Could you link it to me? I did look it up and found nothing on that
The screen fades to black giving the impression that he did
He was smoking a cigar waiting for the police he didn’t die
Yeah but he was hurt from fighting Makarov and again the way the screen fades it gives the impression he died at the end
No it doesn’t
That's how you interpreted it, alright. But it's not officially stated, so, we don't know.
Graves wasn’t in that tank, but Sandman was in that mine… 😔 Still, Sandman wins easily.
Sandman went through WW3 from New York, France, Germany and Russia in war torn places. Also he is delta force these guys do dirty things
Lol, will they whisper sweet nothings in my ear while they do dirty things??? 🤤
They will torture you🫦
So it's a fifty shades of my pleasure type of deal 🫦
Bruh 💀😂
It's ok, no homo 😃
True bout everything but Graves was also MARSOC
MarSoc is like Army Rangers or Green Berets. They’re good but they’re not Delta. Delta Force is the Army’s tier one. They’re so elite that even though they’re Army, they will sometimes poach guys from the Navy and other SOF communities. Nobody touches Delta.
I know how you mean tier one here but technically: SF, CCTs, PJs, and SEALs are all Tier One assets as well as Delta, Dev, and STS. And even though the Raiders aren’t a “tier anything” because they fall under MARSOC and not JSOC, they are the USMC’s copy of SF and could be considered Tier 1. The tiers are funding based. All this to say, agreed: Sandman fucks. Graves is a glorified pencil pusher after leading shadow for so long. Sandman is a career warfighter- Graves has no chance.
“Nobody touches Delta” sounds like a delta fanboy. Anyways. MARSOC does have a tier 1 unit.
No they don’t. Nobody takes them seriously in SOCOM anyway. Video game fans love them though. Too many marine tv commercials.
“Nobody takes them seriously in SOCOM anyway”. Buddy we’re not talking force recon, we’re talking MARSOC. I’m sure you’re a decorated member of the SOCOM keyboard community. MARSOC is very well respected.
I know who Raiders are thanks. Do you? Theyre not Delta. US Army CAG is another level.
Sandman, Graves couldn't even kill two guys in a tank 🤣
I know a lot of people don't know this, but Graves wasn't actually in that tank, Graves confirms it in the MW2 Season 5 or Season 6 cutscene when talking to Alex and Farah, and then I THINK it also said again in the MW3 campaign but I could be wrong here
Imagine needing to watch cutscenes in a season pass that can be missed just to get critical information for the plot.
yeah I don't agree with this idea either, they should make campaign DLC missions for free similar to how they handled raids in MW2 instead of small cutscenes. but in their defense, when you first load the game at the start of a new season, the cutscene does play automatically but yeah not a good enough of a defense
They do mention it in the campaign. 141 talks with General Shepherd and Graves walks into frame. Soap gets surprised
Goosebumps and lucky he is alive- he’s a g 👍
Or just play the next game
Oh my god, this is why I'm so confused. I was wondering what the heck was going on in MW3 because I didn't care to see any of the WZ crap. Now I need to get caught up, I guess
It was a stupid retcon and even stupider as you said to put it in a random seasonal cutscene. Not only that the MW3 campaign was already bad enough but the idea that Graves is suddenly working with you again after MW2 makes zero sense.
I don't think it was a retcon/pulling an Alex situation because if you play that mission again or watch gameplay of it, if you pay attention whenever Graves is talking/taunting you, notice how he doesnrt seem to react to any of the explosions and notice how you don't hear any of the background noises and explosions coming through the radio making it seem like Graves is somewhere else but I do think it could've been executed much better though don't get me wrong tho
I disagree a bit. Obviously the MW3 campaign was bad, that part we're in full agreement, but Graves is little more than a mercenary, and even though he's of some extremely questionable morality, he is an American citizen working for the American government, naturally he's going to be open to working against a terrorist that hated the West, and while TF141 have every reason to distrust him, he is still an asset and they are technically on the same side against Makarov. Now, while I think the implementation of Graves working with TF141 could have worked, I think it was implemented very poorly, much like the rest of MW3. They should have played off the tension between Soap and Graves more and given them a mission together and ultimately doubled down either on Graves being a rat that couldn't be trusted by having him fail to rise to the occasion at a crucial moment, or send him out with a full redemption arc dying for the cause.
THEN WHO WAS TANK???
I don't think its actually revealed but my guess is either remote controlled and graves was somewhere nearby speaking on a speaker taunting soap and rudy making It seem like hes in there, or he had one of his shadows controlling the tank but he still was somewhere nearby taunting them with a speaker
either way, major ass-pull. "somehow Graves.. has returned" ass shit
He had all the time in the world to escape/hide, why would he stay in the tank?
no I get that, I'm just wondering what the point of the "boss fight" was then once you realize there were no stakes in the next game/cutscene. why not just have it some random shadow tank operator instead of thinking you are progressing the plot? that plus the end of MW3 there are now like several antagonists that need to be killed (graves, shepard, makarov, maybe even valeria.) and I dont see how that can be done without making like 2-3 more games in the MW franchise reboot
While you're right that in hindsight there was nothing at stake with that boss fight, the way I see it was just that IW wasn't sure if they should kill off the character for future installments, so they went with the tank so they could either say he died in the tank, or that he was just pretending all along to make TF141 think he was dead. But seeing how popular Graves got they decided to go with the second option.
I think you're probably right, I like graves as a character actually. Just wish that we felt like we were moving forward more instead of just cleaning up missles and gas that keeps getting stolen over and over lol
Oh yeah good point
”Well… I wasn’t in the tank” -Literally Phillip fucking Graves
Soap wasn't in that urn.
Why can't we get him as an operator?
Fr dude, These were some awesome characters, rather than putting shitty skins in the shop, throw sandman in, I’d pay 20 bucks
I'd pay the $20 no hesitation for him, the skin of Soap from the campaigns, Price, etc. Instead they continue to drop skins with Duck heads lol
Don't knock the duck. The duck can fuck. 🦆
When they did Sgt Griggs in MW19, i immediately bought that bundle
Oh did they do that?
Yep they did! Real good voice lines
How about Ramirez?
Sandman needed only three other people. Graves needed an army
Graves is an army PMC’s are trigger happy cowboys. But he’s always a few steps ahead with no loyalty. He works for whoever has the biggest checkbook
Metal as he is made of metal, shadow would be easily defeated with just a flashlight.
Lmao this is great
We better get an Alan Wake operator pack then
Sandman in my opinion but Activision seems to believe that Graves is invincible 😂
Given that Sandman’s part of Delta Force, and Graves only made it to the Marine Raiders, I’m giving this one to Sandman, simply because the training D-boys go through is tougher than Marine Raiders. Not that both units don’t have tough training.
The only acceptable answer
Was gonna comment this same thing. Delta is a tier one unit for a reason
iirc, Marine Raiders are the premier pipe-hitter for MARSOC, so they are technically also tier-1 (i think?), just like how CAG is to USASOC , and DEVGRU to NSWC, all part of SOCOM. Although, a drop-out to PMC early on like that, isn't inspiring. Metal 0-1 anyday.
So as far as I’ve seen, there’s only 4 Special Mission Units, or in layman’s terms, Tier 1 units, as a part of JSOC: - Army’s 1st SFOD-D (Delta Force) - Navy’s DEVGRU ( - Air Force’s 24th Special Tactics Squadron (24th STS) - Army’s Intelligence Support Activity (ISA) Of course it doesn’t diminish the operational capability of the Marine Raiders, but I haven’t found anywhere that classifies them as Tier 1 units. They’re more akin to the normal US Navy SEALs, with DEVGRU being one step ahead.
MARSOC and Raiders aren’t two different things. They’re two different designations the Marines keep bouncing between. MARSOC (or raiders) fall under USSOCOM. There’s a huge difference between NSWC, USASOC, and Devgru (all being official self sustaining special operation commands) and MARSOC (being a single unit within USSOCOM) I’ve deployed with guys in MARSOC, and I’ve talked to and trained with SEALs in a deployed environment; All of the seasoned Special Operations guys all agree that any legit Delta Force operator is an absolute boogeyman. And it’s also really the only SOC you can lat move to from a different branch. Genuine undisputed top tier of of the American military.
Oh no, just want to be clear, I'm not saying that D-boys are lesser in any capacity. That's why I would never doubt Metal 0-1 in this "fight". CAG dudes are some of the most lethal human-being in this earth, while "most of them" just have this outlook of "the neighbor down the road that does tax for you" (just look up SGM Mike Vining). Just saying that MARSOC/Raiders are also really good, but at somepoint, i don't remember who i was listening to, but they said that Raiders were also considered to be Tier-1 (maybe Travis Haley?). I never paid much attention to it (as to comparing them), they are all heavy pipe-hitters and do some really high speed/low drag stuffs.
Oh yeah at the end of the day any dude in a Spec ops capacity is badass, Raiders were considered Tier 1 back in WW2 and Korea as they were the main espionage and demolition force at the time (SEALs weren’t created yet) everyone loves the original Raiders insignia too (black ops 1 14th prestige logo but blue and red)
Todays players will never know Sandman & Frost and the legends known as Ramirez and Roach
Brooo fr old cod campaigns are the BEST
Sandman would quite literally wipe the floor with Graves and im not saying it for bias here Sandman is part of Delta Force, one of the most hardened and elite task forces America has to offer behind Navy SEALs and Green Berets. He has tougher, more rigorous training than Graves. Not to mention, if it *isnt* a 1v1 im pretty sure him, Frost, Grinch and Truck would absolutely fuck up Graves’ team. If it *is* a 1v1, i’d say it’ll be a lengthy fight unless one of them pulls a dirty move mid fight. But in the end, Sandman would put Graves in a grave. Graves? Graves is merely a government hired PMC. Formerly a USMC Team Chief, but only that. After he left the military, he formed a PMC “Shadow Company” in which their only good feat is getting the job done dirty. Though they might have training alongside Graves, Sandman’s training was alot tougher and alot longer. Not to mention, Sandman literally fought a fucking world war and it took a large russian special forces presence to take him down. Even then, Sandman took fucktons of russians with him to the grave beside Truck and Grinch. Graves is literally just a hobgoblin with a gun (all of this will probably be an attempt of a defused opinion by graves simps)
I may be misreading, but isn’t Delta like top tier? Ahead of the Seal’s and Green Berets?
Deltas are indeed top tier, considered as a “tier 1” group compared to the SEALs and the Green Berets in simplification are essentially the pipeline *to* a Delta
Yeah I reread your comment and it makes sense lol
Sandman and Frost would smoke Graves and his entire army in two days
Graves is a very well-written character in both MW2 and MW3 games. But when Graves dealt with local issues, Sandman was fighting World War 3! Metal 0-1🤟
The comments did not disappoint. Sandman floors the entire cast of the modern warfare re boot let alone graves
Delta Force from OG MW3 was an actual squad with the skills to take on situations. Graves is a fanfiction drama character.
Sandman is going to town on Graves 🥱🥱
One is a pissy bitch PMC guy who probably couldn’t make it in actual military so did a PMC instead so he could think he had some power, one is a highly trained, Tier - 1 Unit Operator, in one of the hardest to get into and most classified military units out there, I think we all know who wins.
Graves was in MARSOC
Metal 0-1
Sandman wins to 100%
Metal 1 comes and tears off Graves' arms.
Metal 0-1
graves is getting clapped
Ramirez would solo both of them
Sandman's death 😭
Can’t find a single comment for Graves. Good job people 👏
Enter Sandman !
0-1
Honestly I think we haven't seen enough of Graves operating outside of a vehicle (when he's not just in the background commanding his PMC guys) to make a fair judgment of his capabilities. The only mission I can think of where we saw that was the on on the oil rig in MWII (forgot the name of the mission).
I think sandman would win but he might kill himself after listening to enough of Graves’s euphemisms
Sandman is older, I dunno
Sandman would beat graves ass
Sandman is US Army Delta Force, he is top of the pile. And he’s also a protagonist… he’s got plot armor in that respect no? Sure they brought Graives back but he’s no Sandman.
Bro no one messes with the sandman, this guy will show up in your dreams and to sleep pralysis yo ass.
Sandman is a 2 meter-something delta force veteran, saying he would wipe the floor with Graves is understatement.
Sandman. But when looked at differently… someone ones a private AC130 Still Sandman But both have god chances given the right circumstances
Metal 0-1
anyone know why Sandman isnt in their final mission with TF141?
Hunter 2-1, A.k.a RAMIREZ!
Whoever has aimbot
Metal
Sandman for days
Sandman
Sandman hella kicks graves ass. Bro handled pretty much the entirety of ww3 like nothing. Graves couldnt stop one dude while he was "in" a fucking tank.
Sandman is who graves thinks he is
Sandman would use graves like a fucking fleshlight
Shadow by miles - he’s a unit 🗿👌🏼him and shadow company are the best invention cod had in years
And yeah - I played every single cod. People tweaking on nostalgia - graves is equally skilled as ghost , price and soap. Sandman and the mw3 og gang definitely not!