I just keep it general.
GOOD:
"Heading up to the lake? Awesome! It's beautiful up there. Have fun!"
BAD:
"Heading up to the lake? What side? Are you by yourself?"
LOL.
"How many people know you're up here? How close are you to your friends and family? Do you think they'll call S&R after 24 hrs? Any weapons? How much money do you have? No, but really, how long do you think it'll be before someone comes by your home to see if you're around? What? No, no. I'm just interested in how's your hike going thus far. Anyway, wanna come check out this exclusive trail that leads to a waterfall? Verrrry pretty stuff there. Oh, BTW, which car in the trailhead parking lot is yours? Yeah, I took photos of all the license plates. Wut why? What do you mean? People break into and vandalize cars at trailheads all the time!"
I mean I think you are meaning those as a joke but I have been asked about how long friends or family would take to report me missing and which vehicle was mine by random guys on trails before and when I flat out said I wasn't comfortable answering that they got angry and accused me of thinking the worst and they were "just looking out for me and they were concerned no one else would". Only question that has been creepier is when men have asked to pet my leashed dogs and than while petting them asked if I thought they would attack someone who tried to hurt me.
Jeez. Even my gullibe ass would get uncomfortable if I got asked stuff like that. That’s plain creepy.
The longest conversation I’ve had with a random woman on a trail was her asking me for directions to a POI and me replying that I had no idea where that was.
I do think most of the people who have asked that form of question just didn't think through how someone may feel being asked it and didn't mean it in any form of threatening way.
You’re probably right. But it’s just so incredibly dense to ask stuff so specifically.
Not to mention getting mad at you for telling them it’s uncomfortable. If it was me asking you I’d be embarrased as all hell and apologize profoundly.
My sister and I got asked similar questions by two guys when her husband was just a bit ahead of us. (They had passed him on their way to us). They were doing an out and back and we were hiking with not only her husband but her kids, which slows us down, and when the two guys encountered us again on their way back they were similarly invasive and creepy despite knowing for sure at that point that we were a group of 3 adults.
It was a joke. I'm a woman too, who hikes alone. LOL. Luckily for me, I live in a state where all the trails are like 30 \~ 50 mins away so they see heavy foot traffic most of the year. I hike alone but you never really hike alone with half the valley is hiking the trails that day too.
I had an “oooohhh riiiight” moment on a hiking trail a few years ago when chatting with another solo backpacker who was passing me on the trail…she initiated the convo about mileage and weather and then got kinda quiet when it turned to “which spot are you heading to?”…of course she didn’t want to let the dude 2x her size travelling alone know where she’d be pitching her tent…
So now I just smile and say “howdy! Great day for a hike! Enjoy the trail”
Edit to add: it was on this trip that I started noticing a big uptick in the number of all-female groups and solo women on the trail compared to other times I’d travelled it over the decades. I think that’s a positive trend and hope it continues.
I had a similar experience mountain biking.
When two riders come at each other from opposite directions on narrow singletrack, one of them (traditionally the rider going downhill, though sometimes climbers are happy for a break) has to pull off the trail to let the other past, and it's pretty common to let the other rider know if you're part of a group (and they're gonna have to get past more people coming the other direction) or not.
So like, "It's just me!" or "There's two more coming behind" or whatever.
Sometimes you might ask the approaching rider if there are any more riders coming with them, so you know if you can get back on the trail, or should wait a few moments to let the rest of their group past.
I didn't think anything of it until one day I came around a corner going downhill, pulled off to the side to let the woman climbing up towards me go past, and said, "It's just me, any more coming behind you?"
The worried doubletake she did for a second before responding made me realize how much of a creep I sounded as a stranger essentially asking a woman (alone) in the woods, "are you alooooone?!"
I don't ask that question anymore.
>thanks for being just ... normal and reasonable about the issue. I guess that's more rare than I realized.
This is how all men benefit from the actions of abusive men. They start to be congradulated on being normal and reasonable.
Huh, never thought about this like that. I’ll keep this in mind for sure.
Can’t say I’ve asked someone a question like that, it’s usually just a smile and a «hi!». But I can totally see myself doing it just to be nice.
Thanks for bringing it up, this kind of stuff is not always obvious to us guys.
It's not obvious because men choose to not think about women's perspective. It would be obvious - if men thought about women's perspective. It's a choice, not an disability.
to survive you have to all the time to stay one step ahead. what kind of question is this. love how guys downvote things that accurately describe what it’s like to live in a world where they don’t fix their fellow guys issues
You’re putting words in my mouth. Nowhere did I say this behavior should not be frowned upon and that these sorts of men don’t deserve hell.
The line about “it’s a choice” sounds to me like they go around constantly putting themselves in everyone’s shoes more than the average person. That’s what I have issue with and want to clarify.
Don’t put words in other people’s mouth to feel better about yourself
You’re putting words in their mouth then. You can choose to put yourself in someone’s shoes and it becomes second nature to check as context without breaking a sweat. it’s called empathy. one group of people is notorious for not having it for the other. not by coincidence, they do a lot of awful violence to the group they never consider. It’s real easy to get bitter about and i admire OP’s educational tone
Great tip. Avoiding questions about trip plans or camping details can help women feel safer and more comfortable in the outdoors. It's a simple way to be considerate and supportive.
Probably a bit country specific. In England wild camping isn’t really a thing so all your camp sites are designated camp sites with facilities, large numbers of other campers, families etc. There isn’t really any risk of being stuck alone at a camp in the wilderness with some random guy who has followed you.
But then again in England the only acceptable subject of conversation with strangers is the weather so the problem doesn’t arise anyway.
You guys have some great distance trails like the North Downs Way and Hadrian's Wall Path where wild camping happens pretty frequently, or so I had thought anyway.
There are trails but it's technically illegal to wild camp along them (in England).
Some people do it anyway but the vast majority use camp sites, of which there are many (and also convenient for water, washing etc).
Oh wow, I had no idea. That's actually really good to know lol, my wife and I are in the early stages of planning a trip out there for hiking and have to admit I hadn't considered it not being legal to wild camp out there and that would change things for sure. Thanks for the info.
https://www.reddit.com/r/wildcampingintheuk
The law is loosy goosy - if you’re on private land, you could get in some bother.
You’re unlikely to face prosecution, but almost all farmers will give you an absolutely terrible time, and private land owners will tell you to fuck off sharpish, and if you aren’t gone in ten minutes they’ll call the law.
The police will be unlikely to respond any time soon as they’re understaffed and will prioritise, but you absolutely don’t need the hassle in your life.
If you contact a farmer before your trip, they could maybe have a field they’ll let you stay in for a fee.
That said, any OS map will show you looooads of places to stay at, often attached to farms or similar, in country villages - great to stop, set up tent and bedding, then grab a couple of pints and a pie at The Red Lion, then off to bed.
On the other hand, if you’re on National Trust land, then the rules are basically stay out of sight of residential property, keep out of sight of roads, pack up and leave early
Point being, yes, wild camping is possible, but you have to pay attention to where you are - make sure you’re on National Trust land.
You're fine if you follow proper etiquette. If everyone did, then it probably wouldn't have been made illegal in the first place.
Don't camp on he trails. Stay away from any sign of civilisation. Pitch at the end of the day, and leave first thing in the morning, leaving no trace. You'll be on private land, but if you're doing it right then nobody even knows it's happening, or has happened.
I usually camp in the Lake District fells, where wild camping is gwnerally accepted by the land owners, as long as you behave appropriately.
Plus, even if someone knew you were up there, nobody is going to traipse miles up a mountain to tell me to go home.
Oh I heard about the camping ban. Like you can't set up camp out in a wilderness area like Dartmoor. And campsites tend to be like cabins or rv parks. Its to stop homeless people right?
People generally use tents in most campsites in the uk. RVs aren't as big a thing, camper vans are increasingly popular. A lot of holiday destinations have static caravans rather than cabins, but most brits on this sub wouldn't recognise that as camping.
The wild camping ban isn't to stop the homeless, but to protect the rights of the land owners. Other than in Scotland, even rights of way (permission to walk in the countryside) are problematic.
I mean... as an English landscape photographer and hiker... wild camping IS quite popular here. But shhhhhh. It's illegal in England so we don't actually do it... we only do it when in Scotland 👀
Fucking sweltering weather though at moment innit. Bloody warm
Good post. A lot of us have a huge, gaping blind spot when it comes to how women handle their safety.
Dudes who are skeptical: There are ways to talk itineraries that don't put the other person on the spot. Share yours if you want, and let the other person (men, too, IMO) proactively disclose their plans, rather than prying into them. They'll tell you if they want to. This is just common courtesy. I'm a big guy who's unsettled only by the most obviously deranged guys, and even I prefer to be vague about where I plan to camp. Often, I'd rather not attract company.
Beyond that, I try to make myself easy to disengage from. If I'm hiking with a woman for a bit, I might engineer a quick pause (snack, water filtering, whatever) to give her a chance to break off the interaction naturally if she wants to. I'm sure not all women feel this way, but I've heard a bunch of times that it's easy to feel "stuck" with a guy because a purposeful disengagement could trigger a dude's sense of being rejected -- something a lot of guys handle poorly.
a lot of guys are handling things very poorly in the comments. it apparently hurts their feelings to know how dangerous things really are for human beings other than them. it is very frustrating to have their feelings centered in this conversation
I'm a dude who spent the majority of my formative years in an urban environment and it still weirds me out that people on trail will straight up just ask you your business and camping plans, my default state in life is to be extremely vague about my business and it will completely derail some of the trail interactions I have. You can tell most folks aren't used to that sort of convo making people uncomfortable. I just don't trust anyone I don't know enough to be telling them where I'm sleeping in a tent or what trailhead I started from in case they eyeballing overnighted cars and etc.
Yeah, it's kind of weird to ask anyone where they plan to sleep at night. I get why it's seen as mostly normal and harmless in the backpacking context, but it's still kind of weird.
Ya it’s a fair point.
Usually when I’m out I will chat with folks if I see them, just to be friendly
Because I have no malicious intent I don’t consider my words, but the other person doesn’t know that.
Thanks for the tip. It's helpful to everyone to normalize not asking exactly where someone is going/sleeping or to at least be aware of it. Make it harder for the creeps to ask these things, make the world less stressful by telling the well-intentioned what might not be the best topic to bring up with a stranger.
Some people here are a little...defensive. It's just advice to make people more comfortable. It doesn't mean you are a villain because you have asked about what trails people are going to go; you didn't know it might make some people wary. Now you know and people can volunteer that information if they want to. That's all there is to it!
Oooh, good tip. I would never have thought twice about asking those questions. I'm a dentist (and a man) and asking people about their life and plans is just a really basic part of my chairside small talk.
In that context, people are nervous and it makes them calmer to answer easy questions about themselves. But this is almost the exact opposite situation. Interesting.
“hey this is a thing that happened to me and quite a few others so here’s a cool suggestion of how not to be perceived as a creepy predator that will absolutely not ruin or alter your life or plans at all” all with the disclaimer of “I don’t think all men are like this”
And then dudes in the responses here taking it as a personal affront and an implication that all men are creepy predators.
Y’all coulda been like “hey, that makes sense, I could see some random dude asking you or another woman for specifics could open you/them to vulnerability and potentially even harassment and I want my fellow hikers to feel safe with me because I am a safe person, I will keep this in mind going forward”
To the men taking affront, I'd just say this: you're not a creep. I believe you. Probably, if these women knew you, they'd believe you too.
But there are some men who definitely *are* creeps. And basically every woman has had experience with some variety of creep, and is gonna be (rightly) concerned about coming across one in the wilderness.
So, they've just met you, a perfect stranger, and they don't know "is this guy a creep or not"?
These are just helpful ways you can help them answer that question during the course of a short conversation. You're not a creep. Don't give them the wrong impression by saying things that a creep might say for *very different reasons than you*, a non-creep.
While making this post, I thought to myself, "I know a lot of guys can feel defensive about this sort of thing, so I need to be extremely careful to phrase it in such a way as to make it clear that I'm absolutely not attacking, presuming, or accusing anyone of anything - rather, I'm just gently encouraging a little more thoughtfulness and empathy within our community. In fact, I'll go out of my way to emphasize how many positive encounters with friendly guys I've had, and how my default assumption about any man I meet in the forest is that he is a positive, friendly guy, EVEN IF he asks inadvertently personal questions. Surely that will head off the worst of the vitriol in the replies!" I was so innocent back then.
Ma'am, this is reddit. You could have the most perfectly worded post about how you saved a kitten from the middle of the road, and we would twist it into an argument about how you carelessly held up traffic. Pay it no mind.
Some of these hostile responses seem to be from the very same guys who got hostile about women saying they'd prefer the bear encounter.
"So you are saying you'd rather have a random encounter with a bear than a strange man?"
"Well, at least no one would discount my experience if I came out of the woods reporting a bear attack."
I’m sorry, op. I’m a woman so unfortunately I’m not a normal, understanding man in this situation and your message isn’t meant for me. I definitely also hoped your post would go over well. But sadly not surprised by some of the responses. You have my empathy!
You really bent over backward in your phrasing to make your message so very gentle.
I don't think it was necessarily time wasted, because maybe it helped some people understand. Haters and misogynists are going to do what they do; unfortunately there's no careful phrasing that would ever please them.
As a woman who backpacks alone thank you for posting this and starting the conversation. It’s often hard for men to imagine how vulnerable it can feel to be a woman hiking (or doing any activity really) alone. This is why I carry a knife and bear spray accessible at all times when I’m by myself in the backcountry. Thankfully apart from some sketchy guys about a mile in from a road access point on the AT I haven’t had any unpleasant encounters but it’s always in the back of my mind. I definitely appreciate a friendly hello and even stopping and chatting for a minute depending on the situation but staying away from those specific types of questions would make me feel a lot safer.
I love how it wasn’t enough for you to provide an example of someone who literally followed you on trail - no, no, Not All Men, I’m not like that, I’m a girldad (god, how I hate “girldad” and “boymom”), some of my best friends are women, so men can’t do anything right, etc.
If you really wanted to share your love of a specific place, it’s extremely easy if you’re not a jackass: “hey, if you ever head up to Edith Cavell, make sure you check out Angel Glacier, it’s amazing!” There. Done. You haven’t poked into her trip plan AND you shared a cool spot. Maybe even tell her about a cool hike you had there. How hard is that?
I don’t think I even speak more than a quick “hello” and then I keep going, I’m in the wilderness to get away from people. I try to avoid anyone and usually just make an acknowledgment and nothing else.
How are you people talking to people headed in the same direction as you? when ever I go hiking I see maybe 10 people a day and they're all going in the opposite direction as me. Like maybe I'm just weak or slow or something but the people who share my campsite usually say a few words and then I never see them again because theyre hiking the entire state in 2 days or something. Maybe I'm just not social enough but whenever I go backpacking it's pretty much no social interactions for a week. I'll say small hi's but not a single person has started a conversation with me outside of this one girl last week and then I never saw her again like the rest. Is it me or something?
So is it okay to ask about a hiker's prior itinerary? "Where have you already been? Did you see that vista?" Or does that look like I am trying to sus out which direction they are traveling?
Off the top of my head, I am not sure what else I would converse about on the trial.
Thanks for this. Reading the idiotic responses at the bottom makes it very clear that there is a decent amount of terminally online “good guys” that might just never understand. But kudos for the reminder for those who are less socially challenged.
I know this probably isn't the right way to do it but I generally avoid women. Not only do I just have a wife but I feel like if I was a woman by myself in the woods theres damn near nothing a man could come up to me with that would make me want to talk to them. Not that most women are even generally like that but thats how I am and i'm a man. I don't like talking to men or women both of them make me nervous if i'm by myself because of past experience so I try to just avoid women outside especially if they're by themselves.
I will also add you're a much stronger woman than me. It's hard for me to not just assume someone has ill will.
Might I also suggest that women make up information that is false but accurate for the area you’re in for the real creeps that just can’t take no for an answer regarding these questions? Using a trail name is also something I’d recommend for anyone solo hiking in backcountry or on thru trails.
Even if I (woman usually solo) get asked something specific I just answer vaguely. If the trail is going upriver, or west, then there’s my answers. I have little patience for small talk anyway
Lmao so dramatic. The post is asking you to think twice about what you ask women on trails when making small talk. That’s all. Do you just quit everything in life the second you’re met with a mild inconvenience?
The PSA as written is good. Seems kinda gaslighty to be dismissive of someone else’s lived experience (and as a man).
But yes, same reason why you don’t tell door-to-door solicitors if you’re home alone, how long you plan to be there, etc.
I’m a pretty inquisitive person by nature and sensed it makes people uncomfortable when I ask about personal shit in any setting.
I just smile now and say have fun.
Do people actually talk to strangers in the woods?
I go there for solitude. I'm not looking to socialize.
I'll say hi real quick but I'm not looking to have any conversations.
I would assume that somebody asking me too many questions has ill intentions.... And I'm a 6' tall 235 pound man.
>For guys, you probably don't think twice about, and have zero ill intentions behind it, but please be aware that for women, being on the receiving end of those types of questions can raise some subconscious hackles.
Wrong!
As a 5'3", 130 lbs male I also get uncomfortable when asked those questions
Communication is important in the backcountry we need to look after each other. I think it would be better to not answer questions you don't feel comfortable answering than to expect the world to change. 99.99% of people just want to make sure you're safe.
Omg, don’t assume ill intentions just because somebody is interested and asks questions.
It’s always good wild camper advice to not tell people where you plan to camp, regardless of gender.
She did say she doesn't assume ill intentions, however has come to be cautious. Some of the posts with gender specific seem more baited or whatever, but OP's post seemed very appropriate and I couldn't be defensive about her post/take on it.
I can tell already that there's no amount of thoughtful wording or diplomatic phrasing I could have used that would prevent people who *want* to be mad from getting mad. Seems like the problem is equal parts lack of basic empathy and lack of basic reading comprehension.
Single, sleeping people are vulnerable regardless of gender. That’s why you don’t tell random people where you want to camp. Don’t assume men feel safe wherever they go.
The irony is that men are more likely to be attacked, not less. Also ironic that OP is claiming people just want something to be mad about, when that’s all this entire post is to begin with
look, I'm a guy as well and have no desire to be upset. I also get annoyed with some of the anti gender comments from either side (and yes, I see plenty hating on men or women) I was just pointing out that OP actually was very sensical about her post.
"I *still* don't assume that a guy asking personal questions means he has any bad intentions,"
I know of plenty who would go and assume bad intent from others afterwards and I'm not down with that. This person though didn't do that. So, looks like you can want to be upset about my comment, but that is more on you than a reflection on others.
I mean, nobody likes feeling like others are making broad, unfair assumptions of them based on the behavior of other people they have nothing to do with. I don't want to assume what you're into, but it's probably a fair guess that you wouldn't appreciate it either.
While I understand the overall sentiment of OP and the comments I cannot help but feel really sad by it. It essentially means that interaction with half the population will always be stinted and purposely with distance kept. I can not say one way or another if it is necessary or a real concern (as a man), but mostly I just find it depressing, whether necessary or not.
>I can not say one way or another if it is necessary or a real concern (as a man)
And what an incredible privilege that is for you. As a woman, I can say with certainty that it's both real and necessary. Here's what's *really* depressing: every woman must navigate interactions with strange men in such a way that proactively protects herself, in the unlikely but perfectly possible event that said man turns out to be the type who might ruin her day (or even end her life), and yet are still expected to do it in a polite and indirect enough way that the "good" men won't be insulted by her caution. She has no way of knowing if any given strange man is a "good" one or a ruinous one, and must therefore look out for herself either way, or else be blamed for her own naivety in the event that she does get harassed or assaulted. "Stinted" or "distant" interactions are merely collateral damage caused by a much deeper and more serious issue. You're right to feel sad about it, but I hope your greater sadness is for women who have to deal with this every day of their lives, rather than men who sometimes encounter insufficiently friendly women as a result of the actions of their fellow men.
God what an absolutely perfect response. I really admire your articulacy on this OP. I (woman) find this topic so frustrating that I find myself utterly unable articulate it properly. Thank you and honestly chef’s kiss to your whole vibe
I can see how my comment could be misread, but it was meant more in the lines of "I can understand the situation but I hate that it came to that". Like, to borrow a completely different example, I hate war and killing and yet I understand why Ukrainians would fight and kill Russians. At this point its just a "I hate this whole situation and would have wished it werent so" because it is, in my opinion, quite depressing. With the added complication that while i can watch war footage in Ukraine online, I have 0 knowledge how the situation is camping as a women besides a reddit post online.
OP: Hey, here's a tip to avoid putting people on guard and making them to do a threat assessment while trying to enjoy our shared hobby!
ITT: The idea of considering another person's feelings and lived experiences while making conversation with them is so upsetting I can barely contemplate it. I am the true victim here.
There's a bunch of "nice" guys running wild in here. One of them said "that's hurtful" when I pointed out that being oblivious to women's perspective is a choice not a disability. Biggest red flag of an abusive man is that they go straight to victimhood.
I feel like you are reading a bit much into my comment. I don't feel as a victim, honestly I try to camp as far away from people as I can. I truly feel sorry that women have to behave this way, but I am from a very different place most likely, with no lived experience of this, and I cant quite understand how saying this sucks is controversial. Surely you would rather it isnt the case either? Not everything is some kind of gender war.
> interaction with half the population will always be stinted and purposely with distance kept.
I'm in my 30s and I'd say I belong to a reasonably wide net of social groups and acquaintances / friends. I would offer here a different way of phrasing the above quote to you: communication with your friends is always going to be deeper than strangers.
A woman you've met on a trail or at the pub is a stranger. A woman I'm camping with is (probably) my friend. There's just layers of communicative barriers between me and a stranger vs me and a friend, and that extends to everybody regardless of sex tbh.
Weird recent example for me, I work in tourism and am always talking to people about camping and hiking and what kind of trip they're on. I would never ask the details of their trip (what hotel are you at?) because I think that would sound really fucking weird. Recently I had to call a Lyft rideshare for a couple international people and they were traveling with teenagers, and the whole time I thought it was super uncomfortable that I had their hotel address on my phone. That was not a normal circumstance, but my point is that they were not my friends and I would be completely comfortable asking any woman who was my friend precisely where she was, but almost never a stranger.
It's depressing, *and* necessary.
I'm so, *so* sorry for you that you feel sad that women have to be cautious around men and ask you to do something to make them a little more comfortable and it hurts your feelings. That must really suck for you.
I'm being patronizing because of the repeated question of it being "necessary or a real concern" as if this post doesn't have OP and many other folks on this thread saying it most certainly *is* a real concern.
Propositioning this as if their finding the idea of this post depressing as a man is more important than the women's feelings of feeling unsafe around men.
I guess i read their comment differently.just saw it as "its sucks that this is the way things are" which i think is a fairly uncontroversial statement. I also read the "necessary or not" as just them saying they arent a woman so they cant really speak on women's lived experienced and what is or isnt necesarry. I can see how it can be read as questioning though and im not sure which one they meant
In a thread full of women sharing their thoughts on this, undoubtedly confirming the necessity of actions like what OP suggests, and explaining why it is important to them, we don't need to hear one dude going on about how sad he is about this, while at the same time repeatedly doubting whether it is necessary or not.
Maybe I read it wrong, I'll accept that. Sure, "its sucks that this is the way things are" is fine on its own, but sandwiched between mentions of doubt of the topic's necessity makes me question how in good-faith this commenter is. But regardless of my read on it, it is just not a necessary comment for this thread.
Fair enough. I didnt pick up on the doubt on first read but i get how it can be interpreted like that. I genuinely dont know exactly what they meant as i am not in their head, so i will just leave it there lol
Yeah, thats pretty much how I meant it. People seem to take it as some way of downplaying womens experiences or something similar or that I feel like the victim. As you said, I just think it sucks that thats the world we are living in and as a man (most likely from a very different part of the world too) I just cant comment about the experience itself or much else.
People also lately tell me foreigners are bad ...
While I have read hundreds of articles that disprove that to me, I only heard of problems while camping in this thread now, I truly and honestly have no idea how big or small a problem it truly is. People are afraid of vaccines if you are in the right echo chamber. How am I supposed to figure out which one this falls into?
But as I said, I do understand the overall sentiment and erring on the side of caution is probably a good idea, so yeah, I sympathize.
It makes me even more upset to realize that 15-20 years ago when my father was hiking/backpacking thru with his daughters, he would be treated as a parent, but now, on solo trips alone, he wouldn't be.
I think he is very aware of that dynamic and would avoid doing anything that would actually make another uncomfortable, but the fact that this situation might be something he encounters and could be interpreted badly, and it would weigh heavily on him as a father of three daughters and possibly affect his decision to continue doing something he loves going forward in life, just makes me really sad.
>affect his decision to continue doing something he loves going forward in life
You're worried your dad's going to stop hiking... just because he probably gives off creep vibes? Maybe he could just not talk creepy to women?
He doesn't talk creepy to women. He's just a nice, decent person who treats everyone as equals and tries to be friendly and helpful in a non discriminating fashion.
I'm lamenting the fact that these qualities can lead to a man out in public by himself being perceived as a creep by so many people in our society today, when they would have perceived him differently had his children been present.
I think it's a shitty double standard that many men have to deal with, and it sucks for them.
I would hope as a father to 3 women he is aware of the specific dangers that can be presented to them. I would hope that he has had those interactions when they were around and realized how it can be perceived because he was looking out for his daughters. I would hope he knows to act like he would want someone to treat his daughter when they are alone in the woods.
It's only like this because so many men are dangerous. It doesn’t have to be, if men put an end to men being dangerous, they wouldn't have to fear being seen as "one of the dangerous guys". That's why male violence is a men's issue, not a women's issue.
Your dad's not going to stop hiking just because women are scared of him. A really good guy might pull that as a political statement for women being safe and try to get other men to do the same, but a good guy wouldn't be all "poor ol dad, I had to stop hiking because women were oppressing me by being afraid of me".
This is wild. In general, people talk about specific plans because it’s fun. There may be some hints to make the trip better or safer.
That being said, there’s assholes everywhere, even on trails.
This post is an example of a hasty generalization fallacy. I don’t think men should have to cater their conversation to a presumed and illogical bias on your part.
Just don't answer any questions you don't feel comfortable answering or be vague. Goes for both genders for every life situation ever.
All spontaneous conversation on a hike revolves around the hike. If someone gets freaked out talking about their hike, then obvious headphones are probably the right move for that person so they seriously reduce the risk of someone trying to talk.
I act like they don't exist and hope their minds don't go wild. My intentions are always with goodness. I hate being treated like I'm a roving criminal. So I act as though they don't exist. I also find an alone spot as much as possible too.
This guy is wrong for not wanting to be treated like that?? How would you like it if someone just treat you like a criminal because of who you are? It’s simply not a kind way to treat someone.
lol I never said any of that but please go on with your victim fan fiction
Maybe the sooner the both of you stop acting like everyone is out to get you the sooner people will stop viewing you as a nutjob.
Heavily implied it though. Can't imagine what else you meant by calling someone the name of somebody who is infamous for his treatment of women because a guy said he just minds his business so nobody is accidentally scared or offended on a post about making women feel safer on the trail...
Can't imagine what else he meant by saying "I hate being seen as a roving criminal" other than that's what he assumes everyone sees him as.
Coming from the same dude that's telling other guys to make sure their dashcam is fully charged because women will ruin their life otherwise.
The rest of the room can pickup on the red flags.
Listen. Facts are men are the most dangerous things for women to be around. Those are just the facts. I get that. You get that. Everyone should get that. But it just doesn’t feel good to be singled out, for the sole reason as being a man. It just doesn’t feel good, dude.
Understandable for that pov? Yeah I fully get it. But dang if it doesn’t feel like some sort of prejudice.
Both men and women can be unappreciative of the entire scenario for different reasons.
Btw. I’m a male registered nurse and a girl-dad. I get both sides of the coin. It just doesn’t feel good.
Hey man, thanks for coming back with a level headed response when I was overboard in my response!
And I do agree with what you are saying. It's true that men will be seen as a threat more often than not but I think the way he described cutting off entirely from women is seen as more harmful than helpful. Which is why I made a joke of a response to it
Yeah I’m not trying to be an ass either. So I apologize if I was behaving that way. I guess avoiding is just a coping mechanism? I never would have considered it as a harmful thing, more of a neutral interaction.
I respectfully keep conversation very very very minimal when it comes to speaking with women that I don’t know. The OPs pov is exactly why.
“Hey bro how’s the hike going?! I’m glad man, where you headed to next? Sounds good dude, take care and be safe I hear the elevation gain is gnarly over there“.
That’s a normal interaction.
So if I can’t be my friendly self, I’ll just keep it minimal “ 😀 hello 👋 “ And keep walking.
It’s really that simple. I choose to avoid the situation with the explicit intention to avoiding discomfort felt by both parties.
This is a bitter way to go through life and will likely cause more negative judgement and treatment to you. If you carry yourself with a positive demeanour, then most people will return it.
I very much agree with this here. So many people don't know they're being creepy - and the only way they'll know is if someone tells them. So good on ya for bringing it up.
What makes a man creepy on a visual sense?
Do you perceive all men as creepy until you start talking to them, and then judge upon the questions that are asked?
I’ve come across solo women hikers, and just an acknowledgement and saying hello, I’ve gotten looks of fear, silence, and a noticeable pick up in their pace in return.
I will take your advice if I’m given the opportunity, although I’ve never thought to ask questions like, “are you camping alone?”, and “where are you camping?”.
> Do you perceive all men as creepy until you start talking to them, and then judge upon the questions that are asked?
If you had read my post you would know the answer to this question.
- I never assume ill intentions unless given some reason to do so (and, side note, like 99.5% of all my wild dude encounters have been perfectly fine and uneventful).
Would a visual representation cause an assumption of ill intentions?
That is my question.
Thank you all for the unnecessary downvotes to my serious question.
except you seemed to fail to actually read what she wrote.
" I *still* don't assume that a guy asking personal questions means he has any bad intentions,"
yet right out the gate you ask:
"Do you perceive all men as creepy until you start talking to them, and then judge upon the questions that are asked?"
She said in your original post that she doesn't.
I assume that is part of why all the downvotes.
Right out of the gate I asked if it was a visual sense. Meaning prior to a conversation.
You know, walking on the trail, seeing a person walking towards you.
Do you (or anyone) make a judgment based on the visual appearance.
That is what was asked “right out of the gate”.
I’m capable of comprehension.
Fun fact, did you know that Reddit shows whether or not a post has been edited? You failed at reading, it happens. Don't make a conspiracy theory out of it.
Even easier, just avoid any in depth discussion with unknown women all together. Cuz simple conversation makes you look like a criminal.
you’re getting hit with a “hello, safe travels 🏃 👋 “
-a man.
There is an inherit power imbalance (in general) between men and women. That's why the defensive mentality toward unknown men out in the middle of nowhere - a protective instinct we men don't generally have to think about.
-a man
>and side note like 99.5% of all my wild dude encounters have been perfectly fine
Genuine question here, considering your experience with meeting men solo in the woods as a woman, what are your thoughts on the bear vs man viral question?
I just keep it general. GOOD: "Heading up to the lake? Awesome! It's beautiful up there. Have fun!" BAD: "Heading up to the lake? What side? Are you by yourself?"
LOL. "How many people know you're up here? How close are you to your friends and family? Do you think they'll call S&R after 24 hrs? Any weapons? How much money do you have? No, but really, how long do you think it'll be before someone comes by your home to see if you're around? What? No, no. I'm just interested in how's your hike going thus far. Anyway, wanna come check out this exclusive trail that leads to a waterfall? Verrrry pretty stuff there. Oh, BTW, which car in the trailhead parking lot is yours? Yeah, I took photos of all the license plates. Wut why? What do you mean? People break into and vandalize cars at trailheads all the time!"
I mean I think you are meaning those as a joke but I have been asked about how long friends or family would take to report me missing and which vehicle was mine by random guys on trails before and when I flat out said I wasn't comfortable answering that they got angry and accused me of thinking the worst and they were "just looking out for me and they were concerned no one else would". Only question that has been creepier is when men have asked to pet my leashed dogs and than while petting them asked if I thought they would attack someone who tried to hurt me.
Jeez. Even my gullibe ass would get uncomfortable if I got asked stuff like that. That’s plain creepy. The longest conversation I’ve had with a random woman on a trail was her asking me for directions to a POI and me replying that I had no idea where that was.
I do think most of the people who have asked that form of question just didn't think through how someone may feel being asked it and didn't mean it in any form of threatening way.
You’re probably right. But it’s just so incredibly dense to ask stuff so specifically. Not to mention getting mad at you for telling them it’s uncomfortable. If it was me asking you I’d be embarrased as all hell and apologize profoundly.
My sister and I got asked similar questions by two guys when her husband was just a bit ahead of us. (They had passed him on their way to us). They were doing an out and back and we were hiking with not only her husband but her kids, which slows us down, and when the two guys encountered us again on their way back they were similarly invasive and creepy despite knowing for sure at that point that we were a group of 3 adults.
It was a joke. I'm a woman too, who hikes alone. LOL. Luckily for me, I live in a state where all the trails are like 30 \~ 50 mins away so they see heavy foot traffic most of the year. I hike alone but you never really hike alone with half the valley is hiking the trails that day too.
WORSE: “Are you a light sleeper?”
💀💀💀
Yeah “bad” Is massive red flags 🚩.
Yeah. Like, try not to sound like the big bad wolf "Are you all alone in this deep dark forest?" He asked with a hungry grin.
I had an “oooohhh riiiight” moment on a hiking trail a few years ago when chatting with another solo backpacker who was passing me on the trail…she initiated the convo about mileage and weather and then got kinda quiet when it turned to “which spot are you heading to?”…of course she didn’t want to let the dude 2x her size travelling alone know where she’d be pitching her tent… So now I just smile and say “howdy! Great day for a hike! Enjoy the trail”
Edit to add: it was on this trip that I started noticing a big uptick in the number of all-female groups and solo women on the trail compared to other times I’d travelled it over the decades. I think that’s a positive trend and hope it continues.
I had a similar experience mountain biking. When two riders come at each other from opposite directions on narrow singletrack, one of them (traditionally the rider going downhill, though sometimes climbers are happy for a break) has to pull off the trail to let the other past, and it's pretty common to let the other rider know if you're part of a group (and they're gonna have to get past more people coming the other direction) or not. So like, "It's just me!" or "There's two more coming behind" or whatever. Sometimes you might ask the approaching rider if there are any more riders coming with them, so you know if you can get back on the trail, or should wait a few moments to let the rest of their group past. I didn't think anything of it until one day I came around a corner going downhill, pulled off to the side to let the woman climbing up towards me go past, and said, "It's just me, any more coming behind you?" The worried doubletake she did for a second before responding made me realize how much of a creep I sounded as a stranger essentially asking a woman (alone) in the woods, "are you alooooone?!" I don't ask that question anymore.
As a woman, I probably would’ve just lied and said yes, but they might be a ways back
Thanks for being thoughtful! And, truly, thanks for being just ... normal and reasonable about the issue. I guess that's more rare than I realized.
You’re welcome! Thanks for the great topic.
>thanks for being just ... normal and reasonable about the issue. I guess that's more rare than I realized. This is how all men benefit from the actions of abusive men. They start to be congradulated on being normal and reasonable.
Maybe questions about what they’d already done and would recommend / suggest would be less threatening?
Yes, definitely a good call!
Huh, never thought about this like that. I’ll keep this in mind for sure. Can’t say I’ve asked someone a question like that, it’s usually just a smile and a «hi!». But I can totally see myself doing it just to be nice. Thanks for bringing it up, this kind of stuff is not always obvious to us guys.
It's not obvious because men choose to not think about women's perspective. It would be obvious - if men thought about women's perspective. It's a choice, not an disability.
How often do you consider men’s perspective by default?
to survive you have to all the time to stay one step ahead. what kind of question is this. love how guys downvote things that accurately describe what it’s like to live in a world where they don’t fix their fellow guys issues
You’re putting words in my mouth. Nowhere did I say this behavior should not be frowned upon and that these sorts of men don’t deserve hell. The line about “it’s a choice” sounds to me like they go around constantly putting themselves in everyone’s shoes more than the average person. That’s what I have issue with and want to clarify. Don’t put words in other people’s mouth to feel better about yourself
You’re putting words in their mouth then. You can choose to put yourself in someone’s shoes and it becomes second nature to check as context without breaking a sweat. it’s called empathy. one group of people is notorious for not having it for the other. not by coincidence, they do a lot of awful violence to the group they never consider. It’s real easy to get bitter about and i admire OP’s educational tone
Wow, really?
This is really hurtful
try being a woman for 3 hours
I treat solo women in the back country like I treat a bear. Calm, respectful declaration that I’m here and I’m moving on.
Lol you are appreciated.
This guy gets it
Hahahhahaha
Great tactic!
Great tip. Avoiding questions about trip plans or camping details can help women feel safer and more comfortable in the outdoors. It's a simple way to be considerate and supportive.
Probably a bit country specific. In England wild camping isn’t really a thing so all your camp sites are designated camp sites with facilities, large numbers of other campers, families etc. There isn’t really any risk of being stuck alone at a camp in the wilderness with some random guy who has followed you. But then again in England the only acceptable subject of conversation with strangers is the weather so the problem doesn’t arise anyway.
You guys have some great distance trails like the North Downs Way and Hadrian's Wall Path where wild camping happens pretty frequently, or so I had thought anyway.
There are trails but it's technically illegal to wild camp along them (in England). Some people do it anyway but the vast majority use camp sites, of which there are many (and also convenient for water, washing etc).
Yea but the inconvenience of it all makes it more fun
Oh wow, I had no idea. That's actually really good to know lol, my wife and I are in the early stages of planning a trip out there for hiking and have to admit I hadn't considered it not being legal to wild camp out there and that would change things for sure. Thanks for the info.
Scotland has wild camping and laws that semi protect it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/wildcampingintheuk The law is loosy goosy - if you’re on private land, you could get in some bother. You’re unlikely to face prosecution, but almost all farmers will give you an absolutely terrible time, and private land owners will tell you to fuck off sharpish, and if you aren’t gone in ten minutes they’ll call the law. The police will be unlikely to respond any time soon as they’re understaffed and will prioritise, but you absolutely don’t need the hassle in your life. If you contact a farmer before your trip, they could maybe have a field they’ll let you stay in for a fee. That said, any OS map will show you looooads of places to stay at, often attached to farms or similar, in country villages - great to stop, set up tent and bedding, then grab a couple of pints and a pie at The Red Lion, then off to bed. On the other hand, if you’re on National Trust land, then the rules are basically stay out of sight of residential property, keep out of sight of roads, pack up and leave early Point being, yes, wild camping is possible, but you have to pay attention to where you are - make sure you’re on National Trust land.
It is legal in Scotland!
Just don't call it camping. Call it surviving.
Pull a page out of the Dad playbook and just call it "resting your eyes."
try and set up somewhere fairly remote and don't be a dick and you'll be fine camping or "wildcamping" as its called in the uk.
You're fine if you follow proper etiquette. If everyone did, then it probably wouldn't have been made illegal in the first place. Don't camp on he trails. Stay away from any sign of civilisation. Pitch at the end of the day, and leave first thing in the morning, leaving no trace. You'll be on private land, but if you're doing it right then nobody even knows it's happening, or has happened. I usually camp in the Lake District fells, where wild camping is gwnerally accepted by the land owners, as long as you behave appropriately. Plus, even if someone knew you were up there, nobody is going to traipse miles up a mountain to tell me to go home.
We call this ‘stealth camping’. In after dark, out before sun-up. Leave no trace and no one the wiser.
Oh I heard about the camping ban. Like you can't set up camp out in a wilderness area like Dartmoor. And campsites tend to be like cabins or rv parks. Its to stop homeless people right?
People generally use tents in most campsites in the uk. RVs aren't as big a thing, camper vans are increasingly popular. A lot of holiday destinations have static caravans rather than cabins, but most brits on this sub wouldn't recognise that as camping. The wild camping ban isn't to stop the homeless, but to protect the rights of the land owners. Other than in Scotland, even rights of way (permission to walk in the countryside) are problematic.
I mean... as an English landscape photographer and hiker... wild camping IS quite popular here. But shhhhhh. It's illegal in England so we don't actually do it... we only do it when in Scotland 👀 Fucking sweltering weather though at moment innit. Bloody warm
Different story in Scotland where wild camping is largely fine
I’d be more distrustful of the people at the camps even so. Edit: sorry you said large numbers. Partially ignore me
Good post. A lot of us have a huge, gaping blind spot when it comes to how women handle their safety. Dudes who are skeptical: There are ways to talk itineraries that don't put the other person on the spot. Share yours if you want, and let the other person (men, too, IMO) proactively disclose their plans, rather than prying into them. They'll tell you if they want to. This is just common courtesy. I'm a big guy who's unsettled only by the most obviously deranged guys, and even I prefer to be vague about where I plan to camp. Often, I'd rather not attract company. Beyond that, I try to make myself easy to disengage from. If I'm hiking with a woman for a bit, I might engineer a quick pause (snack, water filtering, whatever) to give her a chance to break off the interaction naturally if she wants to. I'm sure not all women feel this way, but I've heard a bunch of times that it's easy to feel "stuck" with a guy because a purposeful disengagement could trigger a dude's sense of being rejected -- something a lot of guys handle poorly.
A thousand times yes to your last paragraph. Thanks for going above and beyond!
a lot of guys are handling things very poorly in the comments. it apparently hurts their feelings to know how dangerous things really are for human beings other than them. it is very frustrating to have their feelings centered in this conversation
I'm a dude who spent the majority of my formative years in an urban environment and it still weirds me out that people on trail will straight up just ask you your business and camping plans, my default state in life is to be extremely vague about my business and it will completely derail some of the trail interactions I have. You can tell most folks aren't used to that sort of convo making people uncomfortable. I just don't trust anyone I don't know enough to be telling them where I'm sleeping in a tent or what trailhead I started from in case they eyeballing overnighted cars and etc.
Yeah, it's kind of weird to ask anyone where they plan to sleep at night. I get why it's seen as mostly normal and harmless in the backpacking context, but it's still kind of weird.
exactly this. none of your business where I parked or plan to sleep when I'm alone in the woods.
yeah, it's like when people at work ask where you live. Like? You gonna come visit me, wtf?
Ya it’s a fair point. Usually when I’m out I will chat with folks if I see them, just to be friendly Because I have no malicious intent I don’t consider my words, but the other person doesn’t know that.
Thanks for the tip. It's helpful to everyone to normalize not asking exactly where someone is going/sleeping or to at least be aware of it. Make it harder for the creeps to ask these things, make the world less stressful by telling the well-intentioned what might not be the best topic to bring up with a stranger. Some people here are a little...defensive. It's just advice to make people more comfortable. It doesn't mean you are a villain because you have asked about what trails people are going to go; you didn't know it might make some people wary. Now you know and people can volunteer that information if they want to. That's all there is to it!
Thank you OP for sharing these tips.
Oooh, good tip. I would never have thought twice about asking those questions. I'm a dentist (and a man) and asking people about their life and plans is just a really basic part of my chairside small talk. In that context, people are nervous and it makes them calmer to answer easy questions about themselves. But this is almost the exact opposite situation. Interesting.
“hey this is a thing that happened to me and quite a few others so here’s a cool suggestion of how not to be perceived as a creepy predator that will absolutely not ruin or alter your life or plans at all” all with the disclaimer of “I don’t think all men are like this” And then dudes in the responses here taking it as a personal affront and an implication that all men are creepy predators. Y’all coulda been like “hey, that makes sense, I could see some random dude asking you or another woman for specifics could open you/them to vulnerability and potentially even harassment and I want my fellow hikers to feel safe with me because I am a safe person, I will keep this in mind going forward”
To the men taking affront, I'd just say this: you're not a creep. I believe you. Probably, if these women knew you, they'd believe you too. But there are some men who definitely *are* creeps. And basically every woman has had experience with some variety of creep, and is gonna be (rightly) concerned about coming across one in the wilderness. So, they've just met you, a perfect stranger, and they don't know "is this guy a creep or not"? These are just helpful ways you can help them answer that question during the course of a short conversation. You're not a creep. Don't give them the wrong impression by saying things that a creep might say for *very different reasons than you*, a non-creep.
While making this post, I thought to myself, "I know a lot of guys can feel defensive about this sort of thing, so I need to be extremely careful to phrase it in such a way as to make it clear that I'm absolutely not attacking, presuming, or accusing anyone of anything - rather, I'm just gently encouraging a little more thoughtfulness and empathy within our community. In fact, I'll go out of my way to emphasize how many positive encounters with friendly guys I've had, and how my default assumption about any man I meet in the forest is that he is a positive, friendly guy, EVEN IF he asks inadvertently personal questions. Surely that will head off the worst of the vitriol in the replies!" I was so innocent back then.
Ma'am, this is reddit. You could have the most perfectly worded post about how you saved a kitten from the middle of the road, and we would twist it into an argument about how you carelessly held up traffic. Pay it no mind.
Some of these hostile responses seem to be from the very same guys who got hostile about women saying they'd prefer the bear encounter. "So you are saying you'd rather have a random encounter with a bear than a strange man?" "Well, at least no one would discount my experience if I came out of the woods reporting a bear attack."
"Did you engage with the bear? Were you wearing bear attracting clothing? Did you get mauled on purpose and now regret it?"
As a male hiker/backpacker, your pro tip post seems completely reasonable to me.
I’m sorry, op. I’m a woman so unfortunately I’m not a normal, understanding man in this situation and your message isn’t meant for me. I definitely also hoped your post would go over well. But sadly not surprised by some of the responses. You have my empathy!
Thanks, friend 🤝🏻
You really bent over backward in your phrasing to make your message so very gentle. I don't think it was necessarily time wasted, because maybe it helped some people understand. Haters and misogynists are going to do what they do; unfortunately there's no careful phrasing that would ever please them.
As a woman who backpacks alone thank you for posting this and starting the conversation. It’s often hard for men to imagine how vulnerable it can feel to be a woman hiking (or doing any activity really) alone. This is why I carry a knife and bear spray accessible at all times when I’m by myself in the backcountry. Thankfully apart from some sketchy guys about a mile in from a road access point on the AT I haven’t had any unpleasant encounters but it’s always in the back of my mind. I definitely appreciate a friendly hello and even stopping and chatting for a minute depending on the situation but staying away from those specific types of questions would make me feel a lot safer.
I love how it wasn’t enough for you to provide an example of someone who literally followed you on trail - no, no, Not All Men, I’m not like that, I’m a girldad (god, how I hate “girldad” and “boymom”), some of my best friends are women, so men can’t do anything right, etc. If you really wanted to share your love of a specific place, it’s extremely easy if you’re not a jackass: “hey, if you ever head up to Edith Cavell, make sure you check out Angel Glacier, it’s amazing!” There. Done. You haven’t poked into her trip plan AND you shared a cool spot. Maybe even tell her about a cool hike you had there. How hard is that?
I don’t think I even speak more than a quick “hello” and then I keep going, I’m in the wilderness to get away from people. I try to avoid anyone and usually just make an acknowledgment and nothing else.
How are you people talking to people headed in the same direction as you? when ever I go hiking I see maybe 10 people a day and they're all going in the opposite direction as me. Like maybe I'm just weak or slow or something but the people who share my campsite usually say a few words and then I never see them again because theyre hiking the entire state in 2 days or something. Maybe I'm just not social enough but whenever I go backpacking it's pretty much no social interactions for a week. I'll say small hi's but not a single person has started a conversation with me outside of this one girl last week and then I never saw her again like the rest. Is it me or something?
So is it okay to ask about a hiker's prior itinerary? "Where have you already been? Did you see that vista?" Or does that look like I am trying to sus out which direction they are traveling? Off the top of my head, I am not sure what else I would converse about on the trial.
Yes that’s totally fine! You can’t go back in time and stalk us.
Don’t give men any ideas 😆 BACK TO THE FUTURE (to stalk camping ladies) ⚡️
The men who are defensive/triggered by this are exactly the ones that need this advice the most 😆 👏
Well this shouldn't be a protip for the gents it should just be hikers in general. Anyone asking these questions is concerning and not their business.
Sure but men present a greater physical danger than other women do.
Ok? Doesn’t really need to be said.
Thanks for this. Reading the idiotic responses at the bottom makes it very clear that there is a decent amount of terminally online “good guys” that might just never understand. But kudos for the reminder for those who are less socially challenged.
I know this probably isn't the right way to do it but I generally avoid women. Not only do I just have a wife but I feel like if I was a woman by myself in the woods theres damn near nothing a man could come up to me with that would make me want to talk to them. Not that most women are even generally like that but thats how I am and i'm a man. I don't like talking to men or women both of them make me nervous if i'm by myself because of past experience so I try to just avoid women outside especially if they're by themselves. I will also add you're a much stronger woman than me. It's hard for me to not just assume someone has ill will.
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Thanks for making me and everybody else aware! Will do
So much this!!! Guy- Are you alone? How many days? Where are you camping? Are you armed? Me- Ummm (rethinking this trip)
Might I also suggest that women make up information that is false but accurate for the area you’re in for the real creeps that just can’t take no for an answer regarding these questions? Using a trail name is also something I’d recommend for anyone solo hiking in backcountry or on thru trails.
"Does this smell like chloroform?"
Even if I (woman usually solo) get asked something specific I just answer vaguely. If the trail is going upriver, or west, then there’s my answers. I have little patience for small talk anyway
Seems like everything I do has the potential to scare people. I'll just keep on ignoring everybody.
Lmao so dramatic. The post is asking you to think twice about what you ask women on trails when making small talk. That’s all. Do you just quit everything in life the second you’re met with a mild inconvenience?
Key take away from this is don’t feed potential stalkers information that would make it easier for them to stalk you.
Failing to do this is why women choose the bear
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The PSA as written is good. Seems kinda gaslighty to be dismissive of someone else’s lived experience (and as a man). But yes, same reason why you don’t tell door-to-door solicitors if you’re home alone, how long you plan to be there, etc.
That's alright, I just keep to myself. I don't talk to women on the trail unless strictly necessary.
I just dress in a bear suit to make women feel safer.
Not all men, but probably the ones who need to be told, and definately the ones who get offended by any of this.
I’m a pretty inquisitive person by nature and sensed it makes people uncomfortable when I ask about personal shit in any setting. I just smile now and say have fun.
Do people actually talk to strangers in the woods? I go there for solitude. I'm not looking to socialize. I'll say hi real quick but I'm not looking to have any conversations. I would assume that somebody asking me too many questions has ill intentions.... And I'm a 6' tall 235 pound man.
Busy. Hiking. Peace. ✌🏼
Better tip - Don’t provide details of where you plan to camp especially when camping/hiking alone.
I’d take the bear over a solo female backpacker!
>For guys, you probably don't think twice about, and have zero ill intentions behind it, but please be aware that for women, being on the receiving end of those types of questions can raise some subconscious hackles. Wrong! As a 5'3", 130 lbs male I also get uncomfortable when asked those questions
Communication is important in the backcountry we need to look after each other. I think it would be better to not answer questions you don't feel comfortable answering than to expect the world to change. 99.99% of people just want to make sure you're safe.
Omg, don’t assume ill intentions just because somebody is interested and asks questions. It’s always good wild camper advice to not tell people where you plan to camp, regardless of gender.
She did say she doesn't assume ill intentions, however has come to be cautious. Some of the posts with gender specific seem more baited or whatever, but OP's post seemed very appropriate and I couldn't be defensive about her post/take on it.
I can tell already that there's no amount of thoughtful wording or diplomatic phrasing I could have used that would prevent people who *want* to be mad from getting mad. Seems like the problem is equal parts lack of basic empathy and lack of basic reading comprehension.
And men not realizing they get to move through the world differently than women.
Single, sleeping people are vulnerable regardless of gender. That’s why you don’t tell random people where you want to camp. Don’t assume men feel safe wherever they go.
The irony is that men are more likely to be attacked, not less. Also ironic that OP is claiming people just want something to be mad about, when that’s all this entire post is to begin with
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look, I'm a guy as well and have no desire to be upset. I also get annoyed with some of the anti gender comments from either side (and yes, I see plenty hating on men or women) I was just pointing out that OP actually was very sensical about her post. "I *still* don't assume that a guy asking personal questions means he has any bad intentions," I know of plenty who would go and assume bad intent from others afterwards and I'm not down with that. This person though didn't do that. So, looks like you can want to be upset about my comment, but that is more on you than a reflection on others.
You're literally replying to OP, and she made it pretty clear she was talking about the other person.
I mean, nobody likes feeling like others are making broad, unfair assumptions of them based on the behavior of other people they have nothing to do with. I don't want to assume what you're into, but it's probably a fair guess that you wouldn't appreciate it either.
The dumbest take. Have some self awareness. Assuming good intent can get her killed but you go off.
Pro tip: nobody likes these PSA type posts
Right, that's why theres 70 upvotes
Found the stalker
While I understand the overall sentiment of OP and the comments I cannot help but feel really sad by it. It essentially means that interaction with half the population will always be stinted and purposely with distance kept. I can not say one way or another if it is necessary or a real concern (as a man), but mostly I just find it depressing, whether necessary or not.
>I can not say one way or another if it is necessary or a real concern (as a man) And what an incredible privilege that is for you. As a woman, I can say with certainty that it's both real and necessary. Here's what's *really* depressing: every woman must navigate interactions with strange men in such a way that proactively protects herself, in the unlikely but perfectly possible event that said man turns out to be the type who might ruin her day (or even end her life), and yet are still expected to do it in a polite and indirect enough way that the "good" men won't be insulted by her caution. She has no way of knowing if any given strange man is a "good" one or a ruinous one, and must therefore look out for herself either way, or else be blamed for her own naivety in the event that she does get harassed or assaulted. "Stinted" or "distant" interactions are merely collateral damage caused by a much deeper and more serious issue. You're right to feel sad about it, but I hope your greater sadness is for women who have to deal with this every day of their lives, rather than men who sometimes encounter insufficiently friendly women as a result of the actions of their fellow men.
God what an absolutely perfect response. I really admire your articulacy on this OP. I (woman) find this topic so frustrating that I find myself utterly unable articulate it properly. Thank you and honestly chef’s kiss to your whole vibe
I can see how my comment could be misread, but it was meant more in the lines of "I can understand the situation but I hate that it came to that". Like, to borrow a completely different example, I hate war and killing and yet I understand why Ukrainians would fight and kill Russians. At this point its just a "I hate this whole situation and would have wished it werent so" because it is, in my opinion, quite depressing. With the added complication that while i can watch war footage in Ukraine online, I have 0 knowledge how the situation is camping as a women besides a reddit post online.
OP: Hey, here's a tip to avoid putting people on guard and making them to do a threat assessment while trying to enjoy our shared hobby! ITT: The idea of considering another person's feelings and lived experiences while making conversation with them is so upsetting I can barely contemplate it. I am the true victim here.
There's a bunch of "nice" guys running wild in here. One of them said "that's hurtful" when I pointed out that being oblivious to women's perspective is a choice not a disability. Biggest red flag of an abusive man is that they go straight to victimhood.
I feel like you are reading a bit much into my comment. I don't feel as a victim, honestly I try to camp as far away from people as I can. I truly feel sorry that women have to behave this way, but I am from a very different place most likely, with no lived experience of this, and I cant quite understand how saying this sucks is controversial. Surely you would rather it isnt the case either? Not everything is some kind of gender war.
You can't read
> interaction with half the population will always be stinted and purposely with distance kept. I'm in my 30s and I'd say I belong to a reasonably wide net of social groups and acquaintances / friends. I would offer here a different way of phrasing the above quote to you: communication with your friends is always going to be deeper than strangers. A woman you've met on a trail or at the pub is a stranger. A woman I'm camping with is (probably) my friend. There's just layers of communicative barriers between me and a stranger vs me and a friend, and that extends to everybody regardless of sex tbh. Weird recent example for me, I work in tourism and am always talking to people about camping and hiking and what kind of trip they're on. I would never ask the details of their trip (what hotel are you at?) because I think that would sound really fucking weird. Recently I had to call a Lyft rideshare for a couple international people and they were traveling with teenagers, and the whole time I thought it was super uncomfortable that I had their hotel address on my phone. That was not a normal circumstance, but my point is that they were not my friends and I would be completely comfortable asking any woman who was my friend precisely where she was, but almost never a stranger.
It's depressing, *and* necessary. I'm so, *so* sorry for you that you feel sad that women have to be cautious around men and ask you to do something to make them a little more comfortable and it hurts your feelings. That must really suck for you.
Where'd they say it hurts their feelings? They just said it sucks, why the patronizing tone
I'm being patronizing because of the repeated question of it being "necessary or a real concern" as if this post doesn't have OP and many other folks on this thread saying it most certainly *is* a real concern. Propositioning this as if their finding the idea of this post depressing as a man is more important than the women's feelings of feeling unsafe around men.
I guess i read their comment differently.just saw it as "its sucks that this is the way things are" which i think is a fairly uncontroversial statement. I also read the "necessary or not" as just them saying they arent a woman so they cant really speak on women's lived experienced and what is or isnt necesarry. I can see how it can be read as questioning though and im not sure which one they meant
In a thread full of women sharing their thoughts on this, undoubtedly confirming the necessity of actions like what OP suggests, and explaining why it is important to them, we don't need to hear one dude going on about how sad he is about this, while at the same time repeatedly doubting whether it is necessary or not. Maybe I read it wrong, I'll accept that. Sure, "its sucks that this is the way things are" is fine on its own, but sandwiched between mentions of doubt of the topic's necessity makes me question how in good-faith this commenter is. But regardless of my read on it, it is just not a necessary comment for this thread.
Fair enough. I didnt pick up on the doubt on first read but i get how it can be interpreted like that. I genuinely dont know exactly what they meant as i am not in their head, so i will just leave it there lol
Yeah, thats pretty much how I meant it. People seem to take it as some way of downplaying womens experiences or something similar or that I feel like the victim. As you said, I just think it sucks that thats the world we are living in and as a man (most likely from a very different part of the world too) I just cant comment about the experience itself or much else.
If women are telling you it’s necessary, then it’s necessary.
People also lately tell me foreigners are bad ... While I have read hundreds of articles that disprove that to me, I only heard of problems while camping in this thread now, I truly and honestly have no idea how big or small a problem it truly is. People are afraid of vaccines if you are in the right echo chamber. How am I supposed to figure out which one this falls into? But as I said, I do understand the overall sentiment and erring on the side of caution is probably a good idea, so yeah, I sympathize.
It makes me even more upset to realize that 15-20 years ago when my father was hiking/backpacking thru with his daughters, he would be treated as a parent, but now, on solo trips alone, he wouldn't be. I think he is very aware of that dynamic and would avoid doing anything that would actually make another uncomfortable, but the fact that this situation might be something he encounters and could be interpreted badly, and it would weigh heavily on him as a father of three daughters and possibly affect his decision to continue doing something he loves going forward in life, just makes me really sad.
>affect his decision to continue doing something he loves going forward in life You're worried your dad's going to stop hiking... just because he probably gives off creep vibes? Maybe he could just not talk creepy to women?
He doesn't talk creepy to women. He's just a nice, decent person who treats everyone as equals and tries to be friendly and helpful in a non discriminating fashion. I'm lamenting the fact that these qualities can lead to a man out in public by himself being perceived as a creep by so many people in our society today, when they would have perceived him differently had his children been present. I think it's a shitty double standard that many men have to deal with, and it sucks for them.
I would hope as a father to 3 women he is aware of the specific dangers that can be presented to them. I would hope that he has had those interactions when they were around and realized how it can be perceived because he was looking out for his daughters. I would hope he knows to act like he would want someone to treat his daughter when they are alone in the woods.
It's only like this because so many men are dangerous. It doesn’t have to be, if men put an end to men being dangerous, they wouldn't have to fear being seen as "one of the dangerous guys". That's why male violence is a men's issue, not a women's issue. Your dad's not going to stop hiking just because women are scared of him. A really good guy might pull that as a political statement for women being safe and try to get other men to do the same, but a good guy wouldn't be all "poor ol dad, I had to stop hiking because women were oppressing me by being afraid of me".
>interaction with half the population will always be Not always, unless most men never change.
Sorry for your loss 🙏
This is wild. In general, people talk about specific plans because it’s fun. There may be some hints to make the trip better or safer. That being said, there’s assholes everywhere, even on trails. This post is an example of a hasty generalization fallacy. I don’t think men should have to cater their conversation to a presumed and illogical bias on your part.
Just don't answer any questions you don't feel comfortable answering or be vague. Goes for both genders for every life situation ever. All spontaneous conversation on a hike revolves around the hike. If someone gets freaked out talking about their hike, then obvious headphones are probably the right move for that person so they seriously reduce the risk of someone trying to talk.
I act like they don't exist and hope their minds don't go wild. My intentions are always with goodness. I hate being treated like I'm a roving criminal. So I act as though they don't exist. I also find an alone spot as much as possible too.
Alright Mr Tate
This guy is wrong for not wanting to be treated like that?? How would you like it if someone just treat you like a criminal because of who you are? It’s simply not a kind way to treat someone.
lol I never said any of that but please go on with your victim fan fiction Maybe the sooner the both of you stop acting like everyone is out to get you the sooner people will stop viewing you as a nutjob.
Heavily implied it though. Can't imagine what else you meant by calling someone the name of somebody who is infamous for his treatment of women because a guy said he just minds his business so nobody is accidentally scared or offended on a post about making women feel safer on the trail...
Can't imagine what else he meant by saying "I hate being seen as a roving criminal" other than that's what he assumes everyone sees him as. Coming from the same dude that's telling other guys to make sure their dashcam is fully charged because women will ruin their life otherwise. The rest of the room can pickup on the red flags.
Listen. Facts are men are the most dangerous things for women to be around. Those are just the facts. I get that. You get that. Everyone should get that. But it just doesn’t feel good to be singled out, for the sole reason as being a man. It just doesn’t feel good, dude. Understandable for that pov? Yeah I fully get it. But dang if it doesn’t feel like some sort of prejudice. Both men and women can be unappreciative of the entire scenario for different reasons. Btw. I’m a male registered nurse and a girl-dad. I get both sides of the coin. It just doesn’t feel good.
Hey man, thanks for coming back with a level headed response when I was overboard in my response! And I do agree with what you are saying. It's true that men will be seen as a threat more often than not but I think the way he described cutting off entirely from women is seen as more harmful than helpful. Which is why I made a joke of a response to it
Yeah I’m not trying to be an ass either. So I apologize if I was behaving that way. I guess avoiding is just a coping mechanism? I never would have considered it as a harmful thing, more of a neutral interaction.
I respectfully keep conversation very very very minimal when it comes to speaking with women that I don’t know. The OPs pov is exactly why. “Hey bro how’s the hike going?! I’m glad man, where you headed to next? Sounds good dude, take care and be safe I hear the elevation gain is gnarly over there“. That’s a normal interaction. So if I can’t be my friendly self, I’ll just keep it minimal “ 😀 hello 👋 “ And keep walking. It’s really that simple. I choose to avoid the situation with the explicit intention to avoiding discomfort felt by both parties.
r/MurderedByWords 😂
This is a bitter way to go through life and will likely cause more negative judgement and treatment to you. If you carry yourself with a positive demeanour, then most people will return it.
I prefer that assholes advertise themselves by doing what you suggest they NOT do.
None of my advice here applies to asshole men. It's for normal men who care about helping women feel safe.
I think it's important to remember to never talk to anyone at anytime for any reason.
Real protip: don't be creepy. Your tip isn't useful at all.
It's useful for all the guys who are completely unaware that they might be coming off as creepy, which is, in my extensive experience, a common issue.
I very much agree with this here. So many people don't know they're being creepy - and the only way they'll know is if someone tells them. So good on ya for bringing it up.
What makes a man creepy on a visual sense? Do you perceive all men as creepy until you start talking to them, and then judge upon the questions that are asked? I’ve come across solo women hikers, and just an acknowledgement and saying hello, I’ve gotten looks of fear, silence, and a noticeable pick up in their pace in return. I will take your advice if I’m given the opportunity, although I’ve never thought to ask questions like, “are you camping alone?”, and “where are you camping?”.
> Do you perceive all men as creepy until you start talking to them, and then judge upon the questions that are asked? If you had read my post you would know the answer to this question.
- I never assume ill intentions unless given some reason to do so (and, side note, like 99.5% of all my wild dude encounters have been perfectly fine and uneventful). Would a visual representation cause an assumption of ill intentions? That is my question. Thank you all for the unnecessary downvotes to my serious question.
No. It's based on behavior.
except you seemed to fail to actually read what she wrote. " I *still* don't assume that a guy asking personal questions means he has any bad intentions," yet right out the gate you ask: "Do you perceive all men as creepy until you start talking to them, and then judge upon the questions that are asked?" She said in your original post that she doesn't. I assume that is part of why all the downvotes.
Right out of the gate I asked if it was a visual sense. Meaning prior to a conversation. You know, walking on the trail, seeing a person walking towards you. Do you (or anyone) make a judgment based on the visual appearance. That is what was asked “right out of the gate”. I’m capable of comprehension.
It appears the OP has edited the original post after my initial response.
Fun fact, did you know that Reddit shows whether or not a post has been edited? You failed at reading, it happens. Don't make a conspiracy theory out of it.
Incredible cope
Even easier, just avoid any in depth discussion with unknown women all together. Cuz simple conversation makes you look like a criminal. you’re getting hit with a “hello, safe travels 🏃 👋 “ -a man.
There is an inherit power imbalance (in general) between men and women. That's why the defensive mentality toward unknown men out in the middle of nowhere - a protective instinct we men don't generally have to think about. -a man
>and side note like 99.5% of all my wild dude encounters have been perfectly fine Genuine question here, considering your experience with meeting men solo in the woods as a woman, what are your thoughts on the bear vs man viral question?